Slashdot Mirror

This moralizing over specific scenarios is sperglord spiralling.

Maven allows constant unattended tracking of everything on a large scale. For example it could build copresence graphs, or track a target you see now backwards in time very quickly. I don't think the issue is "killing people." It's more, the power to kill the right people, and build a non-transparent secret police state within democratic systems that slowly grows into a parallel invisible authoritarian empire that is impossible to dislodge short of a holocaust of chaos.

This is basically the path we have already walked down, quite far. We could, at this point, perhaps still choose to leave the path, by choosing more death from acceptance that terrorists will succeed because we restrained our police state, ie. more "killing civilians."

"Death is immoral" is a juvenile way to approach questions of the military. It is like people who say, "if not for men there would be no war." It's both lazy and hysterical, total nonsense.

Maven is a huge moral issue. "But muh DEATH" is not the reason.

The questions I have are:

1. what's the effective way to influence politics by withholding your talent?
2. what's the correct amount of influence to have? Too little is irresponsible. Too much is undemocratic.

I don't know the answers.

It would seem like one's basically always entitled to withhold their own talent, but with large private clouds, proprietary datacenter networks and special GPU variants that aren't available outside the cloud, it becomes less clear. You're forcing a collective decision on hundreds of thousands of technical people up and down the stack. Because of the "vegan problem" a powerful monopoly being steered by a tiny minority to crush a vulnerable customer is not just possible but the common scenario. It's clearer with net neutrality, the Cloudflare Problem that heckler's veto of DDoS has a lower barrier to entry than the natural monopsony of DDoS mitigation companies, and the Google Problem of censoring conservatives on Youtube and stealing the domain names of edgy bloggers. This is too much influence, while "just following orders" or "someone else would've done it so why not get paid" is too little.

I do know that Microsoft is boasting of a "moral" decision not to get involved, but it's probably because they don't have the infrastructure to meet the bidding requirements while GOOG and AMZN do. I think that's what most of my negative reaction to this protest comes from. Most of this has the same virtue-signally view as the irrationally extreme recycling systems you see all over the locality where Google is headquartered.

But the more relevant question is what's the right amount of influence for a craftsman to have on a democratic society.

How ignorant can one person be?
It's like a constant droning every day with people complaining about all that stuff you mentioned.

THE UNITED STATES IS NOT A MONOLITH! WE DO NOT AGREE ON ANYTHING WHATSOEVER!
For crying out loud. 3.3 million of us are Muslim, and 7 million are Jewish.

You say: "I did not hear of you guys "hanging" all those politicians, bankers and lobby-ist that led to crashing the system in 2008 and destroyed the middle class."
The ignorati mostly voted for Trump because they believed that he was NOT a member of that group and would "drain the swamp". dumbasses all, I agree, but the point is they wanted things to change.
But have you never heard of occupy Wall Street all over the country?
http://occupywallst.org/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?...

In addition to the fools who thought Trump was an outsider, almost half the voters DID NOT vote for Trump. What do you think is their position on the things that you mention?
Or have you even thought about it at all, the fact that almost half the country voted for the left-wing Hillary Clinton? Do you think that Hillary voters are against all the things you mention?

And what do you think were the positions of those who voted for Bernie Sanders in the primaries?
https://www.washingtonpost.com...
Let me guess, you never heard of Bernie either, or have you not thought of the positions of his supporters?

Keep in mind that this is the country that elected Barack Obama twice. It's wrong to paint us with such a broad brush.

Sorry you fail to see your own binary logic. How can you support more kids with less money? How can you claim our social programs are a loss, and what "Chicago event" are you referring to?

Welfare success stories: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/...
https://www.nytimes.com/books/...
http://occupywallst.org/forum/...

There are plenty more.

This is easy. See: Freedom Hosting.
http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2013/09/fbi-admits-what-we-all-suspected-it-compromised-freedom-hostings-tor-servers/
The FBI had compromised this guy's servers for months, and then viola, there's child porn on there. The fact that the dudes you know from the business seem like right ol' chaps is no reflection on the nature of the FBI or its sordid, filthy history.
You realize the FBI is constantly arming and training wannabe terrorists to the brink of action, right? http://occupywallst.org/forum/...

Ahh Cold. nice to see you have abandoned all pretext of truth and/or rationality (...I always suspected you were faking it), Bountry Hunters and Child Predatorsz, Inside The FBI Entrapment Strategy.

Claiming Adbusters speaks for Occupy movements worldwide is like claiming Rush Limbaugh speaks for all conservatives in the US.

While Adbusters (in concert with Workhouse) may have provided a spark to ignite OWS, I see no evidence that OWS, other US Occupy movements, or other Occupy movements worldwide have completely adopted Adbusters' agenda. I see no evidence that Occupy movements look to Adbusters as their primary media outlet/spokesperson. Quite the opposite, if you look at occupywallst.org, there is precious little mention of Adbusters outside of the site's forums - where Adbusters is frequently ridiculed.

Here's what OWS actually says about their origins:

Occupy Wall Street is a people-powered movement that began on September 17, 2011 in Liberty Square in Manhattan’s Financial District, and has spread to over 100 cities in the United States and actions in over 1,500 cities globally. #ows is fighting back against the corrosive power of major banks and multinational corporations over the democratic process, and the role of Wall Street in creating an economic collapse that has caused the greatest recession in generations. The movement is inspired by popular uprisings in Egypt and Tunisia, and aims to fight back against the richest 1% of people that are writing the rules of an unfair global economy that is foreclosing on our future.

There seems to be no mention of Adbusters.

"Occupy folks" aren't some kinda monolithic group subscribing to a rigid ideological agenda with a single publication acting as their Pravda. You really should open your mind to the idea that many (if not most) of the movements have matured beyond the radical positions Adbusters promotes. You also might want to consider the possibility that the US government's treatment of large financial institutions following the crisis is an affront to capitalist ideals, and is something that *should* be protested.

Here's a link on Occupy's official website explicitly endorsing bringing back Glass Steagall:
http://occupywallst.org/forum/break-up-the-banks-the-glass-steagall-act/

Meanwhile, I can't find anything on their website explicitly asking for handouts or an even distribution of wealth. I've also been to an Occupy protest, and I didn't run into a single Communist. So tell me again, who is projecting on the protestors, you or me? Who is falling into what trap?

The real trap is participating in the campaign of intentionally misleading others about the message. First you claimed that they just want handouts and wealth redistribution, and now you're claiming that they don't know what they want at all. Obviously it can't be both, so which is it?

Maybe im getting tired of people trying to make every single discussion about Occupy Wall street, whether it be Windows new bootloader flaws, or Syrian protests, or Apple's manufacturing policies.

Guess what, there are other current events out there, the whole world doesnt revolve around OWS. Im sure there are websites you can go to if youre really that desperate to talk about OWS.

Well since one of the few demands that seem to be consistent with the OWS crowd is that the wealth of the 1% needs to be redistributed,

Citation required.

http://occupywallst.org/forum/proposed-list-of-ows-demands/

"Raise the minimum wage immediately to $18/hr. Create a maximum wage of $90/hr to eliminate inequality."
"Create a 5% annual wealth tax for the very rich."
"Institute a negative income tax, and tax the very rich at rates up to 90%."
"Immediate debt forgiveness for all."

Are you daft or just ignorant?

While there are a lot of ludicrous, insane demands (see here), there are specific demands that sound entirely reasonable and, in my opinion, long overdue.
* close tax loopholes for corporations
* investigate bankers responsible for bank collapse and either criminally prosecute those who committed fraud or enact reasonable legislation like the Dodd-Frank act which will mitigate business practices that lead to unstable markets.
* reduce defense spending, especially no-bid contracts like those given to Halliburton
* increase spending on education
* reduce the influence of money on elections and the influence of lobbyists on policy
* increase taxes on wealthy individuals in order to pay down federal debt

That's what I mean by digging deeper.

I've never attended any OWS events nor do I plan to, but I like that they provide a counterweight to the Tea Party. I'm all for lower taxes, but given the debt situation it's just not a good idea right now. Both sides have all kinds of crazy going on and both sides can actually influence the direction of government.

Since perhaps you genuinely don't know what they stand for because you don't know the magic of Google, I will hand you this link.

http://occupywallst.org/about/

I find the points they make quite easy to understand.

"Oh they've made their point! They've said what they want!" Really? Because I've looked. I've seen the "official manifesto" posted here: http://www.nycga.net/resources/declaration/ and it is a rambling read of various supposed evils of companies that make them out simultaneously to be complete idiots and extremely malicious villains, but no actual list of demands. To "Clarify" things there is a picture that looks to be straight out of Mad Max Magazine.

Or then on the official site there's this list: http://occupywallst.org/forum/proposed-list-of-ows-demands/. Talk about some of the most stupid, unrealistic demands ever. They want to reduce the workday to 6 hours, yet lower the retirement age to 55 (hint: more work is required to retire since people live longer)? They want a moratorium on foreclosures and layoffs so, you know, nobody needs to actually pay their mortgage, and companies can't get rid of workers even if they must. Then we get some real good ones that show that they've never read the Constitution: "Ban the private ownership of land." "Immediate debt forgiveness for all." "Ban private gun ownership."

So where is this list of very reasonable demands they have? I am not saying find me one guy, I'm saying something from the movement itself. Because I've gone to the official places, and all I'm finding it idiocy.

I don't laugh because I see no hope for improvement (improvement requires a motivated people, which we don't have), and it depresses me deeply.

Take heart. There is hope.

I've been watching these protests, interested in seeing what might come out of them. Unfortunately, no one has stepped out and tried to distill all the chaos down to simple talking points that the masses can understand.

The Occupy Wall Street demands are starting to focus. They're all quite reasonable. This is a revolutionary movement that wants to pass HR 1489, the "Return to Prudent Banking Act". That's something that real conservatives ought to be supporting. It's about returning to the system that worked from 1933 to 1999, where banks had to stay out of the stock market and brokerages couldn't accept deposits. This separation prevented trouble on Wall Street from taking down banks.

The Occupy Wall Street movement wants the Department of Justice to get tough on crime on Wall Street. That, too, is completely in line with conservative tradition. They want a tougher Securities and Exchange Commission and restrictions on campaign spending. None of this is even slightly radical.

Everything on that list would have been supported by President Eisenhower, arguably the best Republican president in the last century. (Eisenhower delivered peace and prosperity while facing down the Soviet threat, which was quite real back then. He made it look easy; he'd often knock off around 3PM and go play golf. Of course, he'd already been in charge of winning WWII in Europe; compared to that, the presidency was a vacation. His greatest skill was that he could pick the right subordinate for the job and keep them on mission. He managed both Patton and Montgomery effectively during WWII.)

The Republicans have lost their way. (Look at the collection of losers and weirdos running for the Republican presidential nomination.) Republican moderates should be supporting Occupy Wall Street.

Which homepage are you talking about?

Maybe from here? http://occupywallst.org/forum/proposed-list-of-demands-please-help-editadd-so-th/

http://occupywallst.org/about/ Parent URL was the 2nd result from google.

Well here's what I found in a quick web search:
1. Pass HR 1489 (reinstates much of Glass-Steagall)
2. Use Congressional authority to investigate and prosecute criminal actions on Wall Street
3. Congress pass legislation to protect democracy by reversing the Citizen's United decision (although personally it looks like it would take either a constitutional amendment or the Supreme Court overruling themselves to correct this blot on the nation)
4. Congress pass the Buffett rule so that the rich and corporations pay their fair share, close corporate tax loopholes, ban hiding money offshore
5. Congress revamp the Securities and Exchange Commission
6. Limiting role of lobbyists
7. Disallow the revolving door of regulators working for the industries they regulate
8. Eliminate corporate "personhood"
That's paraphrased from occupywallst.org

But if you were to search around a bit longer you'd find other, related things, like auditing the Federal Reserve, reinstating a stock transfer tax like we had from 1914-1966, instituting regulations on the derivatives market, breaking up or nationalizing the "too big to fail" banks, push for a jobs bill (either President Obama's or something else), and you'll also find some un- or slightly-related stuff too, like ending "institutionalized racism, sexism, homophobia, and hostility to immigrants" which was one thing I found.

...I might bother to watch them in the figurative or literal sense. Seriously, I heard about them first in the context of a police brutality story, and upon investigation found that they're a bunch of idiots who have no real idea what they're doing. Think I'm engaging in hyperbole or don't know what I'm talking about? Check that particular fact. Seriously, on the OccupyWallSt.org blog, on the most coherent list of demands the mob called OWS has made is a big 'ol disclaimer right at the top that says, and I'm quoting directly on this, "There is NO official list of demands." Right there is a serious problem for a movement. To use a long-standing axiom, "Unless we stand for something, we'll fall for anything," and that, my friends, is what's happening with this particular batch of Useful Idiots. Their "message" has changed almost daily, they keep drifting (sometimes literally, as in 'into oncoming traffic') with whatever political wind blows their way, they shut down their supporters, steal from the NY local businesses, and engage in what could only charitably be called "bad behavior." (Seriously, defecating on cop cars? Are they trying to alienate people?)

Nearly everything suggested by the mob has ranged from Marxism to socialism to just plain ignorant, up to and including breaking laws which, even in Marxist or socialist countries, earn severe penalties, and I'm not even talking politics, I'm talking economics and contract law.

P.S. We can pretty much chalk the budget approval for this project up to one movement: occupywallst.org

Lets do something about it, then

Not one word on the Wall Street protests in the free and democratic western Media, it is beginning to break online link

How?

Perhaps like this!
I don't know what these guys actually stand for but I know they are definitely standing up. and their numbers are growing.

Trend Micro OfficeScan Event

URL Blocked

The URL that you are attempting to access is a potential security risk. Trend Micro OfficeScan has blocked this URL in keeping with network security policy.
URL: http://occupywallst.org/
Risk Level: Dangerous
Details: Verified fraud page or threat source

Yay