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strange that a /. poster would forget about openmoko...
http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Main_Page

No, I've never seen a demo of the phone.

Why would I, when I own one?

Now, you're statements are based off a fairly old "lets get this hardware in the hands of developers with most of the hardware working" software stack, so indulge with me a little bit as I dispel some misconceptions, and explain what has brought me to love my freerunner. First and foremost: my intentions for this phone when I am done with it is to use it as a small, rather general purpose microcontroller (what are your plans for your iphone/gphone, the garbage?). Seriously, it has gps, wifi, two accelerometers, gsm modem, sd card, vga touchscreen, bluetooth, USB host mode (plug other USB devices into the the thing - heck yeah!), and open schematics. I even triple boot the phone with the old 2008.9 stack (cause it has a fairly stable userland), the latest SHR-testing (Stable Hybrid Release) for developing applications for the phone with the elementary widget set -note, this is where the stack is going. It boots in about 45 seconds, and is oh so shiney. (seriously, do you actually know anyone who TURNS OFF their phone anyway?), and I rolled my own (log in over ssh only) embedded linux system just to mess around with. All of these are INTENDED uses of the phone, with FULL access to hardware & software (sadly, not firmware, but you know how these FCC types are about their cellular modems and wifi networks).

A fine example of how open and flexible this phone is: I broke my freerunners screen (tragic, user error, really), and in about 5 minutes I had my computer connected to my phone with vncconnect, with very little hassle. Even when my phone is broken, it works as a phone (albeit within 12 feet of any linux box). This is just a continuation of the flexibility I've come to expect from my phone since I started using it for daily use in September (didn't have a sim card before that, can't comment on how good/crappy it was before then, but it does sound like it used to be pretty crappy before then). And then there's the userspace: tangogps is a fantastic maps application, I have fbreader for my ebooks from gutenberg.org, a few things I've made myself, and enough games for me (seriously, the iphone has x bajillion applications... that all do the same thing. So much less wasted replication of work in opensource projects). Syncing with my computer isn't up to snuff at the moment, but that will come. You might be able to argue that at the moment it isn't consumer ready (but believe you me it will be in just a few more months - FSO is awesome!), but it is by far "slashdot geek" ready (excepting those who talk and don't do, of course).

Another point: I have gcc installed on my phone, along with perl, and a bluetooth keyboard with full 80 character lines of text in portrait mode on a vga screen, what's not to love?


As far as I'm concerned, Android is for people who talk openness, OpenMoKo is for people who doopenness.

It's called OpenMoko.

The OpenMoko uses USB charging, and it works pretty well.

If it's connected to a host, it can draw up to 500 mAh. If it's connected to a wall outlet, it can draw 1000 mAh through the USB connector.

http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Forcing_fast_charge_mode

I have the open source iPhone, it's called the Neo Freerunner from Openmoko. Pretty much the same hardware, except both hardware and software is opensource. http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo_FreeRunner

There is hardware in the openMoko you can not access either.

The crucial difference is that the openmoko hardware doesn't require closed source kernel drivers, and the hardware directly driven by the kernel has open specs, with the notable exception of the Smedia Glamo chip - that's one of the reasons it's being replaced in GTA03.

There is hardware in the openMoko you can not access either.

The crucial difference is that the openmoko hardware doesn't require closed source kernel drivers, and the hardware directly driven by the kernel has open specs, with the notable exception of the Smedia Glamo chip - that's one of the reasons it's being replaced in GTA03.

I'm pretty sure you can just reflash the Calypso GSM firmware used on the Openmoko - e.g. see this Openmoko thread on firmware hacking Though apparently it's all based on leaked docs, and may be illegal.

I'm pretty sure you can just reflash the Calypso GSM firmware used on the Openmoko - e.g. see this Openmoko thread on firmware hacking Though apparently it's all based on leaked docs, and may be illegal.

Well, the only bits I know of are in relation to the Neo Freerunner. koolu.com are a reselles aiming to put android on the freerunner, and they have a git repository. If you want a pre-built image then check out

http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/User:Seanmcneil3

I haven't tried to get the source from google themselves.

About that:
http://downloads.openmoko.org/schematics/
http://downloads.openmoko.org/CAD/

There isn't much point, in the case of a device loaded with fiddly SMD parts of dubious hobbyist availability, to assembling one yourself; but they don't seem to have any interest in stopping you. Beagleboard is in a similar position. If you want one, it'll be loads cheaper to just buy one from somebody who builds them in bulk; but they won't stop you from producing them, if you feel like it.

About that:
http://downloads.openmoko.org/schematics/
http://downloads.openmoko.org/CAD/

There isn't much point, in the case of a device loaded with fiddly SMD parts of dubious hobbyist availability, to assembling one yourself; but they don't seem to have any interest in stopping you. Beagleboard is in a similar position. If you want one, it'll be loads cheaper to just buy one from somebody who builds them in bulk; but they won't stop you from producing them, if you feel like it.

the schematics are here... it's a tough project to make "from scratch" but it's possible...
http://downloads.openmoko.org/schematics/

The graphics chip doesn't have an open API. http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Smedia_Glamo_3362

http://downloads.openmoko.org/schematics/ HTH

The OpenMoko project is also switching to Qt,

Not true. There is the Qtopia image maintained for the openmoko, and is currently kludged into the main images, but the project as a whole is moving to enlightenment (though the Qt and GTK libs don't look like they're going anywhere. however, E = teh shiney). See the FSO distribution to see where openmoko is going.

The OpenMoko project is also switching to Qt,

Not true. There is the Qtopia image maintained for the openmoko, and is currently kludged into the main images, but the project as a whole is moving to enlightenment (though the Qt and GTK libs don't look like they're going anywhere. however, E = teh shiney). See the FSO distribution to see where openmoko is going.

I actually own one, and I'm pretty enthusiastic about on a practical level. Orrery, the star-map application is fun, Duke 3d, the whole "make a quick application with python + gtk (or e, or qt, it's all there), and if I were to repurpose a phone, there really is no point in using anything else.
Pro tip: For home automation, ReMoko may be half of what you need already.

If your friend is having a hard time using it may I suggest the FDOM (fat and dirty openmoko) image? It's got alot of applications pre-installed, plus some hacks to make it more "daily phone" worthy.

I actually own one, and I'm pretty enthusiastic about on a practical level. Orrery, the star-map application is fun, Duke 3d, the whole "make a quick application with python + gtk (or e, or qt, it's all there), and if I were to repurpose a phone, there really is no point in using anything else.
Pro tip: For home automation, ReMoko may be half of what you need already.

If your friend is having a hard time using it may I suggest the FDOM (fat and dirty openmoko) image? It's got alot of applications pre-installed, plus some hacks to make it more "daily phone" worthy.

Well, the now Nokia-owned former-Trolltech Qt Software's Qt toolkit is being ported to symbian as we speak (with a pre-release out already). The OpenMoko project is also switching to Qt, and since Qt 4 is a superb multi-platform toolkit, it might get ported to other mobile platforms as well. So in the future, perhaps using only Qt would suffice. That were great, because I think Qt 4 is really amazing! :)

Things are progressing very quickly... there a whole page of Android info on the wiki already. I was being a little optimistic in my initial posting, but for once I seem to be right.

As other people have pointed out, the Freerunner is not a mainstream device and will not be for quite some time, in fact the current revision of the hardware has a number of acknowledged bugs that cannot be worked around in software. The software is hardly beta quality, more like alpha.

My own feelings vary from awe to frustration. We're talking about a handheld device with GSM nad GPS and bluetooth radios that is an order of magnitude more powerful than the first machines I ran linux on. (My first linux machine was a 386dx 33Mhz with 16Mb RAM and 100MB HD and a plain old VGA card, the Freerunner has a 400Mhz ARM4, 128Mb RAM and 256 Mb of flash storage on the motherboard and a microSD slot and a 600x800 touch screen.)

But I have used mine as a daily phone for almost four months with about 90% reliability, which for a alpha/beta product is not so bad really.

In short a cool and geeky device that needs serious TLC and probably presents more potential than actual. What it really needs is more people with the time and skills to improve every aspect of the hardware and software.

And FYI, the Android porting discussion has begun.

OpenMoko seems to be responding to the community with respect to the deficiencies with its hardware.

Their next phone, the GTA03, which is currently in development will have EDGE, a camera, a 3.5mm jack, no compromised glamo chip, and a completely new case design.

All of this info was pulled from here, and probably subject to change. http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/GTA03

Well, my phone is a Neo1973. I hate contracts, too, so I'm on AT&T GoPhone.

I do think it's silly of us to let carriers dictate what happens with the phone we buy from them, though.

We need to port this thing to all kinds of devices

An open source platform for mobile phones isn't any good at all if there isn't a open hardware platform to run it on.

I seem to recall some chatter on the OpenMoko Community mailing lists. They'd love to have already ported Android to their open hardware but there was no ARM4 binaries available to play with. I'm sure that with this source release I'll be able to boot Android on my Freerunner sometime this year.

We need to port this thing to all kinds of devices

An open source platform for mobile phones isn't any good at all if there isn't a open hardware platform to run it on.

I seem to recall some chatter on the OpenMoko Community mailing lists. They'd love to have already ported Android to their open hardware but there was no ARM4 binaries available to play with. I'm sure that with this source release I'll be able to boot Android on my Freerunner sometime this year.

We need to port this thing to all kinds of devices

An open source platform for mobile phones isn't any good at all if there isn't a open hardware platform to run it on.

I seem to recall some chatter on the OpenMoko Community mailing lists. They'd love to have already ported Android to their open hardware but there was no ARM4 binaries available to play with. I'm sure that with this source release I'll be able to boot Android on my Freerunner sometime this year.

We need to port this thing to all kinds of devices

An open source platform for mobile phones isn't any good at all if there isn't a open hardware platform to run it on.

I seem to recall some chatter on the OpenMoko Community mailing lists. They'd love to have already ported Android to their open hardware but there was no ARM4 binaries available to play with. I'm sure that with this source release I'll be able to boot Android on my Freerunner sometime this year.

from outside, it's a bit confusing.
http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/17th_September%2C_2008_-_Activity_since_launch says - "Raster left the project."

http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Community_Updates/October_3rd%2C_2008 - "Raster is still with us."

sounds like some weak hollywood movie with spirits and whatnot.

from outside, it's a bit confusing.
http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/17th_September%2C_2008_-_Activity_since_launch says - "Raster left the project."

http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Community_Updates/October_3rd%2C_2008 - "Raster is still with us."

sounds like some weak hollywood movie with spirits and whatnot.

How? With what tools?

Ever heard of OpenMoko? It's pretty much a computer with a GSM modem, works on T-mobile with a SIM in US and all over Europe.

Nonsense. I have one of these, and no problem getting on the network. Besides, if rogue phones could trivially kill the network, I am sure that this would already have been exploited by some criminals.

Blame HP, not microsoft. The driver for my all in one Brother laser installed perfectly in Vista x64. If it's possible for one company to do it correctly and make it easy for the user then it's possible for any company to do it. It sounds like HP dropped the ball. What is your logic for blaming it on Vista?

Sounds like all the problems are very hardware dependant. I purchased a new computer because my gaming machine would not run COD4 well and the resulting Vista machine not only out-performs everthing I've had before it also supported my HP printer out of the box. I actually set aside a day to move my printer and scanner over from their previous host and deal with all the driver issues, instead I found myself finished in hardly more time than it took to rearrange the cabling.

NB I'm no microsoft fan... I spend 80% of my professional time writing Java with Eclipse, about 10% of it on Linux. I am a huge proponent of and occasional contributor to FOSS. My linux experience goes back 14 years at least... if I poke around I can probably find the 0.9 floppy disk somewhere. My phone runs linux! AND I AM VERY VERY VERY SATISFIED WITH MY VISTA GAMING MACHINE

It has already been done before and it is on it second version! http://img46.imageshack.us/img46/646/80330048oy9.jpg http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Gentoo

And actually, I've found the software to be improving rabidly (I use it as a daily phone), and there is a fairly large community behind this project (PS, DOOM and Duke Nukem 3D have already been ported). If you don't want to jump on the bandwagon, you're missing out.

I wish Google or someone would come out with a phone which is based on a completely open OS like Linux and where people can write their own programs and so on for it.

Someone already did, Openmoko started shipping the Neo FreeRunner back in July. There are already a whole wack of competing distributions for it. The current release produced and supported by Om is 2008.09 (which is bugfix version of 2008.08) the phone stack for this is QTopia

Right now the whole thing is pretty rough and ready, kind of reminds me of Linux 0.9 back when you had to download a whole load of floppy images... But there's something horribly geeky and thrilling about ssh'ing into your own phone.

I wish Google or someone would come out with a phone which is based on a completely open OS like Linux and where people can write their own programs and so on for it.

Someone already did, Openmoko started shipping the Neo FreeRunner back in July. There are already a whole wack of competing distributions for it. The current release produced and supported by Om is 2008.09 (which is bugfix version of 2008.08) the phone stack for this is QTopia

Right now the whole thing is pretty rough and ready, kind of reminds me of Linux 0.9 back when you had to download a whole load of floppy images... But there's something horribly geeky and thrilling about ssh'ing into your own phone.

I wish Google or someone would come out with a phone which is based on a completely open OS like Linux and where people can write their own programs and so on for it.

Someone already did, Openmoko started shipping the Neo FreeRunner back in July. There are already a whole wack of competing distributions for it. The current release produced and supported by Om is 2008.09 (which is bugfix version of 2008.08) the phone stack for this is QTopia

Right now the whole thing is pretty rough and ready, kind of reminds me of Linux 0.9 back when you had to download a whole load of floppy images... But there's something horribly geeky and thrilling about ssh'ing into your own phone.

(my HTC Wizard does fairly well with a 195MHz processor: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HTC_Wizard [wikipedia.org] imaging what it could do with a 1GHz Atom).

Really? I also have a HTC wizard, and the embedded windows mobile really sucks.
Mobile IE is totally useless, the wifi networks interface is very incomplete and sucks.
Active sync is totally resource intensive.
There is little you can do with mobile Office.
In all the windows mobile default applications, only the mail client does the job.
Besides useless applications, the windows mobile kernel is always crashing.
Looking to non-default applications, Mobile Opera its very cool but it totally nukes the device memory after a while.
This is totally unacceptable in a device with WIFI/GPRS/EDGE/IRDA/BT/USB.

But anyway, Linux on the HTC Wizard (http://linwizard.sourceforge.net), which I'm one of the project admins/developers, does a much better job. You can have GPE
http://familiar.handhelds.org/releases/v0.8.2/install/dl-gpe.png
qtopia
http://wiki.openmoko.org/images/e/ea/Qtopia002.png
or even the openmoko
http://www.palminfocenter.com/images/palm-tx-openmoko-2.jpg
running on it.

The wifi and bluetooth drivers are still missing and the GSM driver is incomplete. With some programming love on them, the wizard would be a much better device.

The current model is the GTA02
Camera and EDGE support are planned for the GTA03 later this year.
3G is planned for GTA04 at some point later in time.
more info...

And for those who asks : yes, the openmoko can make phone calls, both using the older and now deprecated gtk-based apps from the 2007.2 distribution and the newer QTopia apps from the current 2008.8 distro.

It's not a product that you could recommand yet to anyone, but it's usable enough for geeks to buy as an experimenting platform - not necessarily as their main phone, though. Not without an old phone and a second SIM as a backup plan.

... there's freedom, for developers, and users as well:

"Our license gives developers and users freedom to cosmetically customize their device or radically remix it; change the wallpaper or rebuild the entire house! It grants them the freedom, for example, to transform a phone into a medical device or point of sale device or the freedom to simply install their own favourite software. Beyond freeing the software on our devices we have also released our CAD files under Creative Commons. And at Linux world 2008, we announced the release of the schematics for our products."

http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Main_Page

I'm frustrated about the number of SDKs to pick up, Symbian, Windows Mobile, now iPhone SDK.. Google's Android and then this!

It should be noted that this has been around longer than the iPhone/SDK as well as Google Android. The OpenMoko project was announced January 20th, 2007.

There is a group purchase just made in Australia that has a few spare - see http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Group_Sales_Australia and subscribe to the mailing list.

Are you sure it has EDGE? I can't see any reference to it on their wiki:

http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo_FreeRunner_GTA02_Hardware

I have a Freerunner with the hope that I'll be able to use it as a learning device. Right now I've got the Om2008.8 installed and it's barely usable.

I'm hoping Openmoko will be able to keep up a quick development pace. Since switching away from GTK and moving to Qtopia over X11 and Englightenment they've really come a long way. I have doubts that the Openmoko software will be stable and reliable any time soon, but hopefully a developer community will grow out of all the new Freerunner customers.

Another poster mentioned above that this phone is the closest you can get to a PC in a cell phone. Everybody's heard all the freedom related reasons behind Openmoko, but a big part of it for me is fun nerd stuff. There's actually a handful of Linux distributions that run on it, and I'm sure there's more to come. I really like how they're calling them distros and not firmwares. You can dual boot, or boot from the microSD card. The official 2008.8 distro is standard Linux+X11. You can install Debian into a chroot environment and then run any of your Debian apps right along side your Openmoko apps. My phone has Python on it, how cool is that?

It's these things that set Openmoko apart from other Linux mobile initiatives. Openmoko selling Linux computers with integrated cell phones. From what I understand about Android and LiMo the Linux kernel is used but the rest of the stack is nothing like a familiar Linux system.

Some of us already live in the future and use SSD on our laptops. Every gigabyte here is precious, since there's often not dozens, hardly even one dozen.

How quaint... some of us are reading this on our mobiles with dozens of gigabytes of storage on chips the size of a fingernail.

... a really simple cure to the entire situation: don't use an iPhone. Yes. I know that they are incredible. They're are a wonderful device and beautifully designed. To be quite honest, I want one myself! The cost, and the thought of the contract that goes with it have kept me from purchasing one. Besides, what is a person really purchasing a phone for: to use a phone, or to be a member of the "in" crowd? There *are* alternatives. How about OpenMoko? http://www.openmoko.com./ They even have a developers site set up: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Main_Page.

I'm hoping we'll get there before too long - I've just ordered an Openmoko Neo Freerunner. it has a GPS unit, I'm not sure what you can do with it yet.

If we can get some sort of GPL'd Tom-Tom or Garmin style software, that would be cool.

Besides having contributed to GPL'd software before linux even existed, I am directly involved and have been one of the major proponents of GPL compliance in a company that has paid enough money to the FSF to have their logo posted at the FSF's Patron's Page. We ship products every day with GPL compliance and have contributed major amounts of funding for GPL projects.

If FSF does more moronic things like this it would be my official recommendation to not supply more funding directly to the FSF but fund other GPL projects directly.

You asked:

And why didn't any of the previous FSF actions against Apple bother you?

That did bother me, RMS boycotted apple and then Apple eventually complied. Richard Stallman announced the End of the Apple Boycott in 1995.

Let me re-iterate that for you: Why RMS and FSF may have theological/political differences with Apple, Apple is is full compliance with the FSF/GNU license terms of the software that they contribute to and distribute.

The people at FSF who are involved in this petty irrelevant protest are only making the FSF look bad and those people are not contributing to Open Moko
when they are at an apple store wasting everybody's time.

--jeffk++

And without full (3D) hardware access it isn't really an open platform.

Perhaps you should try telling that to the OpenMoko people.