Slashdot Mirror

PayPal isn't a bank. They don't claim to be a bank. They are not insured like a bank. So why should they have to act like one? They are a payment clearinghouse.

They take deposits and pay interest, and are covered by FDIC. That legally makes them a bank, whatever they may claim.

PayPal isn't a bank. They don't claim to be a bank. They are not insured like a bank. So why should they have to act like one? They are a payment clearinghouse.

They take deposits and pay interest, and are covered by FDIC. That legally makes them a bank, whatever they may claim.

PayPal makes a fine s fine spume about "FDIC
Pass-Through Insurance". Just a fancy way of saying they don't have
insurance and probably can't get it.

firstly show them some love by clicking here
I am sure someone checks their referral logs & they should get some idea on whats being discussed here.

To close your paypal account follow that link. I just closed mine.

Then send them an e-mail explaining why. I'm going to now.

P.S. It seems to me the seller of the camera/PDA must have mailed the thing somewhere. Get that address. Contact local police. Contact EBay's fraud division. ETC. I'd be surprised if this money cannot be recovered. In the meantime, I hope Abiword is busy setting up a C2it account.

To close your paypal account follow that link. I just closed mine.

Then send them an e-mail explaining why. I'm going to now.

P.S. It seems to me the seller of the camera/PDA must have mailed the thing somewhere. Get that address. Contact local police. Contact EBay's fraud division. ETC. I'd be surprised if this money cannot be recovered. In the meantime, I hope Abiword is busy setting up a C2it account.

How much money should someone be allowing to accumulate in a Paypal "donation" account? I ask because I think that anyone who lets the account grow too much (like beyond $100 or one transaction, whichever is greater) is begging for trouble. I know that there are transaction fees when you take money out of the account, so were the Abiword people being cheap by not withdrawing earlier?

For example, if there is a 2.9%+$0.30 charge to receive $100 from the account (see Paypal for details), that would be a charge of $3.20 leaving $96.80 in the check I assume they would send out. Even at $50, you're looking at $2.25 with $47.75 of actual money coming at you.

Clearly, were I running the deal I wouldn't be leaving money in this "fund" and I think that Mr. Lachowicz was a damned fool to do so, whether Paypal is generally believed to be a security risk or not.

Frankly, I have more sympathy for someone who loses $30 or $40 from their Paypal account because of this kind of fraud than I do in this case. Someone who loses such a small amount of money could have had some valid reason to have the money in their. Someone who leaves $800 sitting around, doing nothing (savings account interest rates are small, but Paypal interest rates, well, are nonexistant), probably needs a lesson taught to them.

Blaming Paypal alone would be a mistake.

Huh? Did you even look at the contact page? Ok, it's not an 800 number, but it sure looks like you could dial that on a phone.

What is important to point out is that not only are the technology and methods of all these approaches different, but the legal standards and rules of conduct all vary as well. For example, lots of folks despise Paypal and Amazon's zShops never really took off, in part because they closely regulate sellers (but for other reasons related to Amazon's fundamental business model too.)

Hey I read the article, then went to the Tara For Congress Site.

She's fighting for something I believe in, and I admit I do like her position on other things. I found her Paypal contribution button..

So screw it, I know it's a good cause... I sent her $25 cash via PAYPAL Contribution:

Transaction Details

Web Accept Payment Sent (ID #9WL51528E6024712A)

Name Tara For Congress (The recipient of this payment is Verified)

Email grubbhouse@msn.com

Amount 25.00

Send her some cash guys! Are you waiting for the tooth fairy to fight for you?

If you don't support what you believe in...

then you don't really believe in it, do you?

Mabidex

Well, this is a good point. Is EFF the way to go? Or is it about time the /.ers start really pulling together? Plenty here pay dues to EFF, yet feel lost in the crowd. We write and write, and wonder if we even make a dent. I am about to send $$ to a woman in another state on the slight gamble that she might be able shout louder than us. Should we focus on one area or spread ourselves around? This is a political battle and I am not a political person, so I will listen to all theorys on the best approach out there.

Unless, of course, they donate to her. She has plainly stated she needs $5000 to make TV comercials to reach the voters. Kick her a few buck and scare a Congressman or two.

I used PayPal earlier this year to accept credit card payments for a seminar I co-produced. It all went very smoothly: following the instructions in their online manual, I was able to add the Paypal button to my website and also pre-populate the signup form for new PayPal users.

Best of all, the fees were only $0.30 plus 2.9% per transaction, with no monthly minimum, terminal fees, etc. like with a standard credit card processor. This page at PalPal shows the comparison.

To me, this means that accepting credit card payments is not just a privilege of those who can "qualify" at a bank, but available to anyone with just a painless web signup. And the fees are less too.

If PayPal can ever get its customer service act together, it will really give banks a challenge. The credit card processors don't care: they're getting huge traffic from PayPal.

Ok, rant time. I'm big Vim fan. Every computer I own or use (well, every working computer) has it installed. The only editor that approaches EMACS's feature set, and nowhere near the great bloatware's klunkiness or unpredictability. But.

I'm rather disappointed that EMACS and Vi (and its clones, of which Vim is the best and mostly widely used) remain the most widely used text editors. Now each has strengths and weaknesses relative to the other, and it's no use rehashing those wars here. What's important is that both these editors are designed around constraints that are about 20 years out of date. Most especially, they were designed to be used by a text-mode terminal (very fancy ones, in the case of EMACS, very limited ones in the case of vi) over a relatively slow connection.

I won't comment on EMACS, since I lack the obsessiveness to be a serious user. But on vi, the big design decision was to build in a lot of modes to get around the limitations of the terminal. This allowed a lot of commands without function keys or complicated keystrokes. It also allowed the user to enter blocks of text without realtime update -- an essential feature on a 300 baud connection!

But, in a GUI environment, modes are a Bad Thing. Yeah yeah, some of you like being able to do complicated edits without moving your hands off the keyboard to grab the mouse. But most people have an easier time if they don't have to keep a state map current in their head.

Now Vim has impressive GUI support (platform-independent GUI support, which is the main reason I use it), but it still has all the modes of vi, plus 3 or 4 of its own. And its macro language is a kludgy extension of the simple-minded command language Bill Joy invented for the original ex/vi editor, itself a minor extension of the ed command language.

Various projects have tried to do all this over using modern design principles, but the EMACS and Vi user communities are just too entrenched. If I were a better programmer, I'd try it myself, maybe using the vim engine as a basis. But probably I'd be the only user!

Please Support them. I'm sure every bit helps, I've just sent my $5USD.

the paypal fees info is on their site

the basic fee for paypal is 2.9% + $0.30, so if you pay $1, they will get $0.67. if you're not in the same country as them, it'll cost another cent in the dollar. (on the other hand, "merchants" receiving at least $1000/month with paypal get a somewhat better rate)

in case you're not aware, this happens with credit cards too. the way the card companies make their money is by taking a cut of all the transactions. most places don't publicise the fact, but some places do pass the charges on by charging extra for credit card payments

Scroll down until you see the characters in the yellow box with the grid. Click "help?" and you will get a popup window outlining some help junk, disregard that.

Click "Listen To These Characters" and it will load a wav file that tells you the characters...
Now go back, and copy the address of that link. It 'll look something like:
https://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/wv_web/[blah blah blah]/secret.wav

Add a letter into the blahblahblah section, and load that file :-)

I won't spoil your fun.

PayPal, while secure, isn't exactly cheap. While it's quick and secure, if you use credit cards and direct deposit. The fees for transfering funds are outrageous. I think PayPal starts to make up for it through the services they provide that are similar to any other bank.

They don't tell you this in big bold unambiguous neon letters, but Paypal is not a bank. If they were a bank they would be regulated like a bank. They would have to adhere to reasonable consumer protection laws. They would be better equipped to handle fraud, and the accountholders would also be insured. As it stands now, Paypal is just a company that shuffles money around for you...sometimes.

If you've ever read the T&C's you'll see that they have a great deal of freedom to do whatever they want with your paypal account and any bank/credit card accounts that are associated with it. If you've ever read Paypalsucks (you can also get to it at www.nopaypal.com if your firewall is picky) you can see that they often do just that. If you have $1000 in your Paypal account and someone disputes a $10 charge from your account Paypal will confiscate all of the money in your account, no questions asked (and no due process given, either). Do you think that a bank could get away with that? It is a very dangerous misconception that Paypal is a bank, one that Paypal tried very hard not to undermine.

Somebody open these people a tipjar or a donation link!!

According to this site there have been 693 people who have paid 5 dollars. That equals $3465 Slashdot has made. However, that does not include those who have paid $5 more than once because they used up their pageviews. I am guessing this number is low.

Wait a second there. Below is the info on FDIC insurance from PayPal's help section (Link only works if you're logged in to PayPal).

Basically, if you do not select a Money Market Account, then PayPal (obviously) puts your money in a bank account.

This gets you the benefits of FDIC insurance if that bank fails, not if PayPal fails. There is no protection against PayPal failing.

Is my PayPal account insured?
Yes, your PayPal balance is FDIC insured up to $100,000, as follows. When you add or receive funds to your PayPal balance, PayPal combines your funds with other customer funds and deposits them in accounts at FDIC-insured banks on your behalf until you decide to send money to another user, withdraw the funds, or enroll in the Money Market Reserve Fund. In the unlikely event that a bank where we place your money were to fail, your funds would benefit from FDIC insurance, along with any other deposits you hold at that bank, up to a total of $100,000. In the event of insolvency of a bank where we place your money, we would act as your representative and file a claim with the FDIC to collect the amount determined from your PayPal balance. You can access a list of the banks where we place your money here.

Note that in addition to the FDIC pass-through insurance described above, PayPal also offers $100,000 insurance against unauthorized transfers.

Wait a second there. Below is the info on FDIC insurance from PayPal's help section (Link only works if you're logged in to PayPal).

Basically, if you do not select a Money Market Account, then PayPal (obviously) puts your money in a bank account.

This gets you the benefits of FDIC insurance if that bank fails, not if PayPal fails. There is no protection against PayPal failing.

Is my PayPal account insured?
Yes, your PayPal balance is FDIC insured up to $100,000, as follows. When you add or receive funds to your PayPal balance, PayPal combines your funds with other customer funds and deposits them in accounts at FDIC-insured banks on your behalf until you decide to send money to another user, withdraw the funds, or enroll in the Money Market Reserve Fund. In the unlikely event that a bank where we place your money were to fail, your funds would benefit from FDIC insurance, along with any other deposits you hold at that bank, up to a total of $100,000. In the event of insolvency of a bank where we place your money, we would act as your representative and file a claim with the FDIC to collect the amount determined from your PayPal balance. You can access a list of the banks where we place your money here.

Note that in addition to the FDIC pass-through insurance described above, PayPal also offers $100,000 insurance against unauthorized transfers.

Wait a second there. Below is the info on FDIC insurance from PayPal's help section (Link only works if you're logged in to PayPal).

Basically, if you do not select a Money Market Account, then PayPal (obviously) puts your money in a bank account.

This gets you the benefits of FDIC insurance if that bank fails, not if PayPal fails. There is no protection against PayPal failing.

Is my PayPal account insured?
Yes, your PayPal balance is FDIC insured up to $100,000, as follows. When you add or receive funds to your PayPal balance, PayPal combines your funds with other customer funds and deposits them in accounts at FDIC-insured banks on your behalf until you decide to send money to another user, withdraw the funds, or enroll in the Money Market Reserve Fund. In the unlikely event that a bank where we place your money were to fail, your funds would benefit from FDIC insurance, along with any other deposits you hold at that bank, up to a total of $100,000. In the event of insolvency of a bank where we place your money, we would act as your representative and file a claim with the FDIC to collect the amount determined from your PayPal balance. You can access a list of the banks where we place your money here.

Note that in addition to the FDIC pass-through insurance described above, PayPal also offers $100,000 insurance against unauthorized transfers.

it earns money on cash on deposit

Actually, it doesn't. I have a few bucks in my paypal account that are not earning interest - mainly because I don't want to become verified and give PP access to my bank account. You can have paypal put your money in a money market account (which may earn or lose $). From the prospectus: note - you have to login to see this page

Although the Fund seeks to preserve the value of your investment at $1 per share, it is possible to lose money by investing in the Fund.

http://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=p/gen/bon us-faq-outside

What are the New Account Bonus requirements?
To receive the $5 New Account Bonus, U.S. members must verify their account, add $250 by electronic funds transfer, and sign up for our Money Market Reserve Fund to start earning a return on their money.

Want a quick way to get support from PayPal? It's quite simple, really. Just send an email to didnotmeetexpectations@paypal.com. When I sent an email through their support page it took over a week to get a response. When I sent one to didnotmeetexpectations@paypal.com I got a response the next day. Just be sure to add this line: "I asked this before but the question was never really answered."
Ah, I should get an award for manipulation of bureaucratic systems...I've manipulated my school more times than I can remember, PayPal, NuSphere, Microsoft...oh dear, I've said too much. ;)

One thing that is not going to help Paypal is Billpoint's full purchase protection promotion which is prominently displayed on every auction with billpoint. This will convince Joe Sixpack that paypal is some type of unprotected rogue service.

Instead of a Donation button (link to pdf!) on my website, I prefer the Brunching Shuttlecocks' system: The Oral Sex Donation System.

Sorry. That was supposed to be PayPal.

I honestly don't think that users are going to stop pirating music when those 3 things are allowed.

I agree with you, in spite of the hard numbers that I've seen (I can't find them at the moment, sorry). People who pirate mp3s say that they would like to give money to the artists, something like 60% of them (us).

However, while 44% of americans say they go to church regularly, about 20% actually do.

Why? Because they think people should go to church. Likewise, people who download mp3s, at least in a large part and I think in a majority, think that people who listen to music ought to support artists. That does NOT translate into action on their part; especially if you make it inconvenient, laborious or bothersome.

If it ever becomes really easy for me to give Eddie Vedder five bucks, I will; in fact, I think enough people, even though it would be a fraction of those who download his music, would do it for Eddie Vedder to live handomely, pay his recording fees, do publicity and support a small staff. However, even if it becomes really easy to do, it is never going to be anything like the racket that the RIAA is running now, and at least some industry people know it. The RIAA's only hope of survival is to destroy online music distribution entirely, which is what these insults.. I mean services, are a movement towards.

What about Keenspot?

You don't subscribe to a particular comic but to Keenspot premium, an ad-free version of all their comics and you get several gifts such as autographed comic books, original artwork, ...

You still can also donate to authors through paypal if you want to.

And they often seel original art through auctions

Ladies and gentleman, put our hands together for the largest ass on the Internet

G to the izz-O, A to the izz-T, S to the izz-E

Welcome ladies and gentlemen to the 8th wonder of the world
The ass of the century, oh it's timeless, GOATSE!
Thanks for clicking that link
You coulda been anywhere on the web
But you're here with me
I appreciate that...

G to the izz-O, A to the izz-T, S to the izz-E

Reading drivel on that press release 'bout VA (Linux)
Was wondern' why they changed their names
Dumped that dirt cheap stock, through with them
If I worked there, I'd quit, no way I'd work for them
Wasn't born a coder, I just make fun of em'

G to the izz-O, A to the izz-T, S to the izz-E

Porno for freezy keeps my hard drive so sleasy
Can't leave Everquest alone, the game needs me
Hex editing my name into VB progs, it ain't easy
Slashdot wanna IP block me, I get a proxy
And somehow, I beat the lameness filter like Rocky

G to the izz-O, A to the izz-T, S to the izz-E

Not guilty, he who mods me down is not real to me
Therefore he doesn't exist
So poof... vamoose son of a bitch

[Chorus]
G to the izz-O, A to the izz-T, S to the izz-E
Reading drivel on that press release 'bout VA (Linux)
G to the izz-O, A to the izz-T, S to the izz-E
That's the anthem get'cha damn hands up
G to the izz-O, A to the izz-T, S to the izz-E
Not guilty ya'll got-ta feel me
G to the izz-O, A to the izz-T, S to the izz-E
That's the anthem get'cha damn hands UP!

Holla at me...
I do this for the posters
To let 'em know what enlarged ass look like... when they shoulda looked at that link closer
Show 'em how to avoid a room full 'o taco snot coaxers
Get some good trolls in before the story's over
Posts with redirect goatse links even get modded up
I'm dissin JonKatz for those 15-year-old boys he seems to have a crush
Pay for premium Slashdot? You gotta be kidding us
If /. ain't profitable, pimp your boy whores for mo' bucks

[Chorus]
Yeah...
GOATSE is back, trollin' parody of rap
Go on, click that link, view the crater in that crack
Like I told you sell boys, no
JonKatz does that so hopefully you won't have to go through that
I was raised on Windows, point and click
If you don't like that, you can suck my dick
Got an X10 camera, focused on my ass
Wanna see the picture? PayPal me some cash
Threshold under 0, why I got it so low?
Save good trolls on my disk, watchin' all the time for more
So you know I seen it all before
I seen redundant on karma whores when their link post was too late
Crapfloods and mod downs, the two things I hate
A good troll modded up, the two things is great

G to the izz-O, A to the izz-T, S to the izz-E

What else can I say about Slashdot, it'll turn a man gay

[Chorus]
G to the izz-O, A to the izz-T, S to the izz-E
(4x to fade out)

The above has been brought to you by the fine folks of Frost Pist Brewery. Frost Pist Beer - Always ICE BREWED for a THICK head.

Please?

A QUESTION FOR TROLLS: KNOW WHERE I CAN FIND THE "TROLL TUESDAY 2001" PAGE THAT SHOWS CMDRTACO AND ONE OF HIS GAY BUDDIES NAKED HAVING ANAL INTERCOURSE? I WOULD LIKE TO LINK THE PAGE IN THIS SONG...THAT IS ALL...

Ladies and gentleman, put our hands together for the largest ass on the Internet

G to the izz-O, A to the izz-T, S to the izz-E

Welcome ladies and gentlemen to the 8th wonder of the world
The ass of the century, oh it's timeless, GOATSE!
Thanks for clicking that link
You coulda been anywhere on the web
But you're here with me
I appreciate that...

G to the izz-O, A to the izz-T, S to the izz-E

Reading drivel on that press release 'bout VA (Linux)
Was wondern' why they changed their names
Dumped that dirt cheap stock, through with them
If I worked there, I'd quit, no way I'd work for them
Wasn't born a coder, I just make fun of em'

G to the izz-O, A to the izz-T, S to the izz-E

Porno for freezy keeps my hard drive so sleasy
Can't leave Everquest alone, the game needs me
Hex editing my name into VB progs, it ain't easy
Slashdot wanna IP block me, I hang up and dial back in
And somehow, I beat the lameness filter like Rocky

G to the izz-O, A to the izz-T, S to the izz-E

Not guilty, he who mods me down is not real to me
Therefore he doesn't exist
So poof... vamoose son of a bitch

[Chorus]
G to the izz-O, A to the izz-T, S to the izz-E
Reading drivel on that press release 'bout VA (Linux)
G to the izz-O, A to the izz-T, S to the izz-E
That's the anthem get'cha damn hands up
G to the izz-O, A to the izz-T, S to the izz-E
Not guilty ya'll got-ta feel me
G to the izz-O, A to the izz-T, S to the izz-E
That's the anthem get'cha damn hands UP!

Holla at me...
I do this for the posters
To let 'em know what enlarged ass look like... when they shoulda looked at that link closer
Show 'em how to avoid a room full 'o taco snot coaxers
Get some good trolls in before the story's over
Posts with redirect goatse links even get modded up
I'm dissin JonKatz for those 15-year-old boys he seems to have a crush
Pay for premium Slashdot? You gotta be kidding us
If /. ain't profitable, pimp your boy whores for mo' bucks

[Chorus]
Yeah...
GOATSE is back, trollin' parody of rap
Go on, click that link, view the crater in that crack
Like I told you sell boys, no
JonKatz does that so hopefully you won't have to go through that
I was raised on Windows, point and click
If you don't like that, you can suck my dick
Got an X10 camera, focused on my ass
Wanna see the picture, PayPal me some cash
Threshold under 0, why I got it so low?
Save good trolls on my disk, watchin' all the time for more
So you know I seen it all before
I seen redundant on karma whores when their link post was too late
Crapfloods and mod downs, the two things I hate
A good troll modded up, the two things is great

G to the izz-O, A to the izz-T, S to the izz-E

What else can I say about Slashdot, it'll turn a man gay

[Chorus]
G to the izz-O, A to the izz-T, S to the izz-E
(4x to fade out)

The above has been brought to you by the fine folks of Frost Pist Brewery. Frost Pist Beer - Always ICE BREWED for a THICK head.

REAM MY ASS HARDER....HARDER....HARDER...TOO HARD!

A QUESTION FOR TROLLS: KNOW WHERE I CAN FIND THE "TROLL TUESDAY 2001" PAGE THAT SHOWS CMDRTACO AND ONE OF HIS GAY BUDDIES NAKED HAVING ANAL INTERCOURSE? I WOULD LIKE TO LINK THE PAGE IN THIS SONG...THAT IS ALL...

Ladies and gentleman, put our hands together for the largest ass on the Internet

G to the izz-O, A to the izz-T, S to the izz-E

Welcome ladies and gentlemen to the 8th wonder of the world
The ass of the century, oh it's timeless, GOATSE!
Thanks for clicking that link
You coulda been anywhere on the web
But you're here with me
I appreciate that...

G to the izz-O, A to the izz-T, S to the izz-E

Reading drivel on that press release 'bout VA (Linux)
Was wondern' why they changed their names
Dumped that dirt cheap stock, through with them
If I worked there, I'd quit, no way I'd work for them
Wasn't born a coder, I just make fun of em'

G to the izz-O, A to the izz-T, S to the izz-E

Porno for freezy keeps my hard drive so sleasy
Can't leave Everquest alone, the game needs me
Hex editing my name into VB progs, it ain't easy
Slashdot wanna IP block me, I hang up and dial back in
And somehow, I beat the lameness filter like Rocky

G to the izz-O, A to the izz-T, S to the izz-E

Not guilty, he who mods me down is not real to me
Therefore he doesn't exist
So poof... vamoose son of a bitch

[Chorus]
G to the izz-O, A to the izz-T, S to the izz-E
Reading drivel on that press release 'bout VA (Linux)
G to the izz-O, A to the izz-T, S to the izz-E
That's the anthem get'cha damn hands up
G to the izz-O, A to the izz-T, S to the izz-E
Not guilty ya'll got-ta feel me
G to the izz-O, A to the izz-T, S to the izz-E
That's the anthem get'cha damn hands UP!

Holla at me...
I do this for the posters
To let 'em know what enlarged ass look like... when they shoulda looked at that link closer
Show 'em how to avoid a room full 'o taco snot coaxers
Get some good trolls in before the story's over
Posts with redirect goatse links even get modded up
I'm dissin JonKatz for those 15-year-old boys he seems to have a crush
Pay for premium Slashdot? You gotta be kidding us
If /. ain't profitable, pimp your boy whores for mo' bucks

[Chorus]
Yeah...
GOATSE is back, trollin' parody of rap
Go on, click that link, view the crater in that crack
Like I told you sell boys, no
JonKatz does that so hopefully you won't have to go through that
I was raised on Windows, point and click
If you don't like that, you can suck my dick
Got an X10 camera, focused on my ass
Wanna see the picture, PayPal me some cash
Threshold under 0, why I got it so low?
Save good trolls on my disk, watchin' all the time for more
So you know I seen it all before
I seen redundant on karma whores when their link post was too late
Crapfloods and mod downs, the two things I hate
A good troll modded up, the two things is great

G to the izz-O, A to the izz-T, S to the izz-E

What else can I say about Slashdot, it'll turn a man gay

[Chorus]
G to the izz-O, A to the izz-T, S to the izz-E
(4x to fade out)

The above has been brought to you by the fine folks of Frost Pist Brewery. Frost Pist Beer - Always ICE BREWED for a THICK head.

OpenBSD also will accept money via paypal... https://www.paypal.com/refer/pal=obsdpaypal%40open bsd.org.

paypal bastards in customer service

Q What is PayPal?

A PayPal is an account-based system that lets people securely send online payments to anyone with an email address using their credit card or bank account.[emphasis added]

I guess that makes the sender the "real customer"

Q What is the Buyer Complaint Process?

A PayPal's Buyer Complaint Process helps protect PayPal members when a merchant does not deliver goods as promised. If you have been unable to resolve a dispute with a seller, you may file a Buyer Complaint Form (go to the Security Center link in the footer of any PayPal page) to initiate an investigation. PayPal will investigate your complaint and attempt to recover any funds you are owed. You will be entitled to the return of any funds PayPal is able to collect on your behalf. However, fund recovery is not guaranteed.

So PayPal does claim to investigate and attempt to recover money lost in fraudulent transactions. If they do not do this, they are not fullfilling their agreement. According to most of the compaints, and indeed the local BBB, PayPal has historically been unreachable, unhelpful, and downright shitty when it comes to people who have been ripped off. This certainly constitutes enough cause for a credit card chargeback.

Of course there is also the part about "verifying" sellers that don't really exist. PayPal actually does fill a certain role of a trust system, they claim to verify that certain users are who they say they are. Other that the ability to do chargebacks there is no reason for this verification. So why do you think it exists? If I go to Western Union and wire money they are obligated to deliver it to the right person and keep a record of that transaction. If that transaction fails I am entitled to my money back. If a Money Order is stolen or deposted fraudulently I am likewise entitled to a refund.

We are hearing complaints where PayPal is not responding to complaints or is acknowledging legitimate customer complaints and failing to recover funds from "verified" sellers. If this is indeed the case then PayPal is failing in their duty and service and you should dispute the charges with your card company.

What you will find it what PayPal already knows: your card company will be happy to grant your chargeback and leave PayPal on the hook.

PayPal says each account is insured for up to $100,000 by Travelers Insurance.

I've never personally had a trouble with PayPal's service, though my business account is quite low volume. They seem to make good security assurances, process payments quickly, and allow me to deal with credit cards without a full blown merchant account. Not too bad a deal...

I think the main thing to keep in mind is that PayPal is not a bank, and not FDIC insured.

FWIW, the new version of Yahoo! PayDirect is FDIC insured. Its fees are similar to the current PayPal fees. I haven't used PayDirect since it switched banks several weeks ago, but I remember that it was possible to contact Yahoo about the service if you were willing to pay for a long-distance phone call. (PayDirect is also the only service that I was able to get a tip bookmarklet to work with, so I'm biased.)

I have been using paypal's webshop stuff for about 6 months for my store and it so far seems to be reliable very very doable for a small hobby/business like mine. Its just me here, selling the stuff I make and not wanting to worry about processing credit cards. That is not my core competancy, it is, however, paypal's. I also jumped through some hoops to verify some extra accounts and now have my business account set up as a money market account. So now the money I make selling my jewelry online earns monthly interest. This pleases me. I have also never had any trouble scooping out those funds and electronically transferring them to my normal checking account at Wells Fargo. They seem to be a careful business, and the only complaint that I ever got from a customer was that PayPal can be pretty picky about verifying credit card accounts. This seems like a small price to pay for added security.

This should help those of us in the USA keep things in perspective when we are complaining about DMCA and Carnivore. Not that we shouldn't fight these things, but we should always remember it could be a lot worse -- and we should be thankful for the freedoms we still have, most of which are (still!) not being threatened.

And while we contribute to the Dmitry Sklyarov legal defense fund, we should remember that even though he's wrongfully charged with violating a wrong law, there are others in the "People's Republic" of China who are being tortured in unspeakable ways for just receiving e-mail from foreigners and reading the news on the web.

A large number of people here have complained about how PayPal refuses to handle complaints about merchandise either not being sent or arriving in poor condition. While PayPal politely handles some of these cases, they are no means obligated by their terms to handle them all.

The fact of the matter is that PayPal is a money transfer agent. They are the electronic version of Western Union. Money transfer agents basically take money from one person, charge a fee, and then give the remainder to another. While they may have some fraud guarantees, they do not normally handle merchandise disputes. They just move money from one place to another, and then their job is done.

What people here seem to consider PayPal to be is an escrow service. An escrow service takes money from person A plus a fee, and then notifies person B that the escrow service has money from person A meant for them. Person B then sends the merchandise, which Person A inspects. If Person A is not satisfied, they send the merchandise back to Person B. Otherwise (ideally), Person B gets paid.

Escrow services endure a lot more risk than a money transfer agent does. They deal with a higher risk of fraud, and take more measures to compensate for this. PayPal does not consider themselves to be an escrow service. PayPal's own FAQ says so.

Examples of *real* online escrow services include Escrow.com and Tradenable. Note that I have not used either of these, so buyer/seller beware.

I find PayPal pretty annoying today - a lot of the anti-fraud, privacy-invasive measures which this article applauds make Paypal much less enticing to me than it used to be.

Michael. Do you look for reasons to bitch? I swear to God, wannabe privacy advocates piss me off. How do you expect PayPal to do business such as it does (WITH ACCESS TO YOUR CREDIT CARD) without a modicum of personal information, hm? Do you think it would make good business sense for PayPal to say "You know, we don't need any of your personal information. Just give us your credit card number, and we'll base our business on the honor system."

Yeah. Right.

I strongly recommend you have a look at Paypal's Privacy Policy. Since you're obviously doing some blind, ignorant whining about subject matter with which you have absolutely no clue, I guarantee you've never even clicked on the privacy policy. PayPal does their best to explain what information is gathered, why it's gathered, and how it's used. If you don't like it, don't use the service. But don't complain.

Michael's comment absolutely reeks of "I'm with Stupid", "follow everyone else's opinion" mentality. "Wow. The community is really for individual privacy! It's time for me to attempt to gain acceptance with my (cough) peers by complaining about privacy-invading goons!"

Yes. Privacy is important. However, when you choose to conduct business over the internet with a credit card, bitching about a company doing its best to protect yours and their asses only serves to make you look like (more of) an idiot.

Personally, I've had nothing but excellent service with PayPal. It's nice to be able to accept credit cards, or use credit cards to pay for something without a whole shitload of messy paperwork. I've got to give PayPal a lot of credit. They've become a very successful online transaction service, and pretty much the standard auction payment system on eBay. (Ah, no need to worry about sending checks or money orders through the mail. Instant payment rocks.)

Weather Underground has a neat subscription model: pay $5/year and they shut off the ads. Ads are a minor annoyance on my cable modem feed, but I subscribed just because they're my favorite weather site. LWN might want to charge a bit more, and/or make shutting off the ads a user-selectable option (targeted ads can be informative), and definitely offer payment via PayPal as well as credit cards, but it's the most plausible revenue model I've seen.

There are good ways to protect yourself on Paypal. One is to make sure that you only deal with people who have verified accounts. This means that they have linked a bank account to their Paypal account and (presumably) can be traced. In fact, if you pay someone for an eBay auction with Paypal AND they don't send the goods you can get up to $200 from eBay and $200 from Paypal.

Look here for up-to-date information on Paypal's fraud policy.

They're going to fold in 12-18 months just like all the others now.

I doubt it.

They have 10 million users and are the standard payment method for online auctions.

It isn't like they would consider using someone else's [apache.org] software even if it had a better security history.

I agree. Microsoft passport is only powered by IIS because it's "in the family". Based on it's track record with passport so far, IIS is clearly not the most logical choice for their system.

If a universal internet indentity system is ever going to work it will have to be (as the 'Liberty Alliance' is) a cooperative effort between many companies. I hope that the variety of interests involved make this project put user's needs in front of corporate interests (since there is no ONE corporate agenda, there are many).

PayPal is a good example of a successfull consumer-friendly corporate joint-venture. Frankly, I'm surprised PayPal's name isn't on the list of ProjectLiberty charter members.

Microsoft recently announced that they plan to open up Hailstorm to the web at large, and allow different authentication "cells" to share Kerberos keys.

This tells me that they've decided that owning the authentication database (and associated user profile information) is not as valuable a proposition as having an open authentication network and getting a micro-cut of every monetary transaction that passes through it.

No doubt if Hailstorm takes hold, every third-party authentication is practically going to need to interoperate with it, and will just become an involuntary revenue generation service for Microsoft.

To this end, look for Microsoft's purchase of PayPal or some "leading" micropayment shop (perhaps from x.25 land if not .com land) in the next couple quarters.

First of all, the salary was lagged by 1 month, so when you get paid, you're not getting paid for the past 2 weeks, you're getting paid for the period 4 weeks ago to 2 weeks ago. Thus, when I didn't get paid one friday, I was owed two paychecks. Then the company didn't offer any explanation for another 2 weeks (during which time I did not work of course). I was already 10 days late on my rent at that point (I had had some financial difficulties prior to that involving medical expenses) and if the job had continued, I would have been in the black within 1.5 months. In any case, with no income and my rent already late, my landlord started eviction proceedings. So the next month or so was spent begging for money from my family so I could have enough to move out of the city where the job was and back closer to home. I had no time to begin the unemployment process. And I don't know where you're getting your (mis)information, but in New York state there is a cap on unemployment of $405/week, from which 10% is deducted for taxes = $365. I had no savings. I left school to take this job. And you wrongly inferred that I still have the cell phone and cable. My statement regarding these items was that I still have the bills, which had accrued for about 3 months due to the aforementioned financial difficulties I had encountered.

I assumed he was a con man when he decided to lie to both the investors and the public about the plans for the company. Around February it was apparent that he planned to use the company and its product simply as a vehicle to launch his daughter's modeling career (going so far as to claim she and he [neither of whom have ever written even a line of HTML, much less C++] wrote the entire application, both on the client and server side). However, at that time my options were extremely limited as I had only been working there for about 5 months, and my main reason for taking the job was to gain programming experience. 5 months of experience isn't very useful, especially when the project isn't even complete and you've got essentially nothing to show for those 5 months.

While I'll be the first to admit that I wasn't the most financially responsible person on the block, I don't think any amount of planning could have prepared me for the level of underhandedness to which my employer sank.

Oh, if anybody is wondering, the company was Aimster, which has now gone so low as to try and profit off the WTC disaster. While the page now claims that 100% of the money generated will go to the Red Cross, it initially said that "a portion" of the money would go to Aimster's "fight for freedom". Then I guess they took a lot of flak for that, and changed it (copying the text nearly verbatim from PayPal's donation page) but I seriously doubt that the red cross will see a dime of any money generated from that page. And I'm pretty doubtful that the poster they're trying to sell even exists.

A lot of what I wrote above is irrelevant to this subject, but the depths to which Aimster's CEO will sink appalls me more with each passing day.