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Feds Rule PayPal Is Not A Bank
dthable writes "CNet has posted an article update describing the Feds latest ruling - PayPal is not considered a bank. The article describes the effects of not being a bank which includes the lack of government regulations."
PayPal is not a *good* bank. =)
Does "not a bank" mean "not insured by FDIC"?
This makes my life simpler. Since it's not a bank, I see no reason to let them handle my money. c2it from now on.
rooooar
Also, note that this doesn't get it out from under the couple of states that (correctly) think PayPal should be regulated like a bank.
I don't know what kind of crack this court was on, but it must have been some good stuff.
They can use your money as wallpaper if they want.
Paypal seemed to be a great idea, and still is better for small items and auctions. Until transaction costs come down for debit cards, we'll still have to use it.
Ok...this means they can go belly up at any time. Bad timing. Never trusted someone who wants to make a universal pay system for the entire internet. Single point of faliure and all that.
:)
Only had to use them once for E-Bay. But I got my Morpheus Glasses, and I'm happy. Yanked my card from my account as soon as I had them.
JoeLinux
"'As long as we continue doing what we are doing today, we won't be subject to Federal banking laws,' said PayPal Chief Executive Peter Thiel."
These guys really need to back down and start telling people how they will fix the numerous complaints about their service instead of acting so arrogant, IMHO.
My $0.02 will always be worth more than your â0.02, so
what are they then? a Credit card compny? Perhpas, for our safty, they should regulate, or at least clearly define paypal. Is e-gold considered a bank www.e-gold.com? they have online pay services, but they also have hard currency. I guess so. Anyways, what is Paypal??
Sig (appended to the end of comments you post, 120 chars)
Both Blender, and My Paypal accounts are frozen,
Remember that you are unique, just like everybody else.
Cnet = www.news.com not www.news.com.com
--
What is the sound of this sentence?
I don't use an FDIC-insured bank. I use a credit union. They pay me better interest, I am insured up to $325,000 (by 3 seperate insurance companies internationally), and they loan money to the kind of people I want to see that money going to.
Banking regulations hurt consumers, not help. The red tape costs are VERY high, the government passes more and more laws requiring disclosure of deposits and transactions (snooping), and our wonderful federal reserve buys and sells gold and messes with interest rates making it more and more difficult to get value out of the fiat dollar.
I say give us more non-bank banks. If I could find an unregulated money-holder for me, I'd use it immediately IF they had good third party insurers, better interest, and less government big brother intrusion into my transactions.
I've seen the complaints on /. and all the other sites out there. Where does this notion come from that they ever WERE a bank? I use Paypal to send and receive credit card payments. As soon as the money hits my account, I take it out. Why would I expect Paypal to FDIC insure it? Or to give me interest? or any of these other services?
That being said, I think Paypal has some shady stuff going on so I will discontinue the use of their service.
There is no reasonable defense against an idiot with an agenda
:wq
Wonder if this will add fuel to the fire on all those claims that Pay Pal stole their money (ex: www.paypalsucks.com)
Because until the internet, there was no way you could build paypal. (Well maybe over the phone, but that would be much more difficult) Because the internet allows paypal to have virtual presence wherever there is net access, and has no physical presence. You cannot goto the paypal headquarters and deposit your money into your paypal account. The laws are just not setup to deal with this kind of business yet. A bank without a physical point of presence is not covered by any of todays laws (correctly). It'll probably be awhile before the lawyers figure out what Paypal and services like it really are.
More about this story at:
NandoTimes
Quidquid latine dictum sit altum viditur
Paypal has no one to blame but themselves for the current investigation.
It wasn't until PayPalSucks and PayPal Warning became well-known and the horror stories became more abundant that Paypal found itself in the sights.
I alternate between posting +5 and -1 Comments. Karma: +53 -47 = 6
They hold it as a physical asset. No interest, but money is insulated from inflation, but not from price fluctuations in the price of gold.
All Troll + "offtopic" mods are meta moderated as "Unfair", because you abused the system.
News is by definition New. This story is two days old and was on all of the news linking sights then. No doubt a bunch of people submitted the story when it happened so why does it take 2 days for it to show up on slashdot?
I am not a number! I am a man! And don't you
Before long, he was sought after for other reasons.
Daniel has also created some articles of government and a logo .
It is interesting to see how fate chose PayPal over GenDex, at least thusfar.
Amazing magic tricks
I say give us more non-bank banks. If I could find an unregulated money-holder for me, I'd use it immediately IF they had good third party insurers, better interest, and less government big brother intrusion into my transactions.
... use the cash-n-carry, fully trust-based money changers of the middle east. No regulations, no snooping, and the only requirement is trust ...
u ble-in-price-in-just-three-months recessions we experience from time to time, but a real you-are-likely-to-starve-along-with-the-rest-of-us and armed-revolution-really-might-happen depression like our grandparents used to go on about for hours on end to anyone who would listen.
... which isn't the same as no regulation and no accountability at all, which is what you get with pay-pal.)
Do what Osama does
Personally, I'm not fond of banking, or of banks, or of excessive regulation (and sometimes corrupt regulation that facilitates, for example, the "legitimate" seizure of an accounts assets for simply remaining idle for a few years), but what you propose is a recipe for another 1929 followed by a decade or more of depression. Not the soft-market, oh-no-I-can't-by-a-new-BMW-and-my-condo-didn't-do
Thaks, but with as annoying as I find regulated banks, I'll take that "disease" any day over your proposed "cure."
(Having said all that, I would like to see regulations eased and brought into line with those that a credit union has to obey
The Future of Human Evolution: Autonomy
This is REAL news by a REAL company and NOT some crap website ran in rob maldas dirty bed room using a crap os that nobody uses! (funny too)
WARNING:
Your Paypal account can be frozen at any time, without advance notice leaving you without your money for weeks (if not forever), and there isn't much you can do about it.
Paypal Warning
Quidquid latine dictum sit altum viditur
Do you *really*? I suspect that most people thinking of that imagine themselves on the 'fun' (whatta sense of fun) end of the scale.
But are you willing to take the chance of being dead? How about your wife, parents, kids, siblings, etc? When you talk of burning, you may be the one in flames, with someone else holding the match. You may be looted, and someone else doing the looting.
Watch what you wish for.
The living have better things to do than to continue hating the dead.
Read these for more info on why the Federal Reserve caused the Great Depression. Eye-opening...
First
Second
I was hoping to see armed FDIC agents march in and take over paypal the next time they are seriously accused of fraud .. which might be very soon indeed.
sulli
RTFJ.
financial finagling like Enron, that can give the appearance of good times when the truth is rotten to the core. Eventually it catches up. This past year, Enron was doing it. In 1929, enough more people were doing it to cause the run on the banks.
In that light, it's probably a good thing that Enron happened. It's the canary that died, and told us all to ventilate the mines and clean up business accounting practices. This type of thing *was* on the way to becoming more widespread.
The living have better things to do than to continue hating the dead.
I went from putting the sentence: "Paypal preferred" in my auctions on eBay when they used to offer a free service to individuals to the sentence: "I won't accept Paypal." And I know that I am not the only one out there moving away from these thieves. The fact that I get charged outrageous fees by these guys who lured me with there $5 coupon at the beginning is just intolerable. I understand the fact that they need to charge something to exist, but there are limits to what they can do.
Unfortunately, refusing paypal puts the burden on the buyers who have to wait for their check to clear up or take the time to send a money order. What are the other companies I could use beside paypal for my auctions?
PPA, the girl next door who says "Screw Paypal"
-- I feel better now. Thanks for asking.
ummm....credit unions have a thing called CUIC or somthing like that.....it is a federal program that isures your money up to $100,000.
I am the Alpha and the Omega-3
From PayPalWarning.com...
PayPal, Inc.
11128 John Galt Blvd
Omaha, NE 68137
Subdivision planners reading Ayn Rand, apparently...
-carl
. We've got computers, we're tapping phone lines, you know that ain't allowed - Talking Heads, "Life During Wartime"
The main point of being a bank, is that banks are allowed to invent money.
Everyone knows about bank notes and coins, they are minted by the government. However, this is only a small fraction of the money in circulation - around 4% in most big economies. Most money is in bank accounts of one sort or another and circulates through cheques, debit cards etc. Cash is a minor part of the money supply and becoming less important by the day. So, where does most money really come from ? The answer is very simple: money is invented by banks when people take out loans.
This is not a secret, it's just not widely known. Most people think that banks lend you other people's money and charge more interest to borrowers than the lenders receive, but this picture is fundamentally wrong. If you borrow £5000 from the bank, nobody is sent a letter saying that their money is temporarily unavailable because they have lent it to someone else. A more accurate picture is that this £5000 didn't exist until the bank lent it to you.
This is hard to believe, so let me show you how it works. It simplifies matters to imagine that there is only 1 bank, or if that strains your imagination, just imagine that A,B and C all bank with Wells Fargo.
Let us start with people A,B,C and a bank and keep track of how much money they have. The bank keeps separate accounts for A,B,C and itself
1. We'll start everybody off with no money, and nothing in their bank account
except for C who has $5000
External funds A: 0, B: 0, C 5000
Bank a:0 b:0 c:0 bank:0
2. C pays his money into his bank account
External A: 0 B: 0 C: 0
Bank a:0 b:0 c:5000 bank:0
3. A asks to borrow from bank so it breaks A's account of 0
into $5000 of money for his current account and a debt of -$5000
External A: 0, B: 0, C: 0
Bank a:(5000,-5000) b:0 c:5000 bank:0
4. The bank transfers the money to A
External: A: 5000, B: 0, C: 0
Bank a:-5000 b:0 c:5000 bank:0
5. A pays this money to B
Exernal A: 0, B: 5000, C: 0
Bank a:-5000 b:0 c:5000 bank:0
6. B pays the money into his account
External A: 0, B: 0, C: 0
Bank a:-5000 b:5000 c:5000 bank:0
7. A obtains money from elsewhere (easier said than done)
External A: 5500, B: 0, C: 0
Bank a:-5000 b:5000 c:5000 bank:0
8. A repays 5000 to bank, plus interest of 500
External A 0, B 0, C 0
Bank a:0 b:5000 c:5000 bank:500
9. The bank pays some interest to C
External A: 0, B: 0, C: 0
Bank a:0 b:5000 c:5300 bank:200
So far, the bank has done nothing strange, and this actually corresponds to the understanding that most people have about the way banks work. One thing to notice is that when A received $5000, nothing happened to C's account. Theoretically C could withdraw his money at any time.
The clever bit is that step 4 never needs to actually happen. A doesn't remove $5000 in cash from his bank - he just writes a check out to B, who never takes out the money either - he just pays it into his account. So in order to "lend money" to A, all that the bank needs to do is change it's accounts from saying:
Bank a:0 b:0 c:5000 bank:0
to saying:
Bank a:5000,-5000 b:0 c:5000 bank:0
Which means: A has $5000 in his current account and also has a debt of $5000 in a separate account.
and as far as A is concerned he has borrowed $5000 from the bank.
But there is nothing to stop the bank from "lending" lots of people money in this way. Why not lend D $5000 too, just change the accounts to say:
Bank a:5000,-5000 b:0 c:5000 d:5000,-5000 bank:0
The money that it lends out does not have to exist before it lends it out - the bank invents the money. In fact, almost all the money in circulation has been invented in this way.
Are banks allowed to do this - isn't there a law against this ? No, not at all, banks are expected to do this - in fact without the banks providing credit, the money supply drys up and the economy goes into recession. There used to be laws specifying a limit - banks could only lend out X times as much money as they received, but these laws have been scrapped in most modern economies. The only constraint is market confidence. If people start to lose confidence in the bank, too many people demand to physically get their hands on their money at the same time, then the whole facade comes tumbling down.
The central misunderstanding is that banks charge interest because they themselves are borrowing money from somewhere, as in fact they are if the money actually leaves their control. Banks compete with one another to lend you money because it is their principle source of revenue. They compete by charging less interest. If they charge too little, lend too much to people who have trouble paying it back then people lose confidence, and move their funds to another bank, the bank goes bust. They lend as much as they dare though, because it's immensly profitable: they are inventing the money they lend you.
So, money is created by banks in the form of debt. Now, lets think about this a moment. What would happen if everybody tried to pay off their debts to the banks, and nobody took out new loans. Well, the money supply would dry up, there would be far less money in circulation. Money's primary function is a to facilitate trade, if nobody has any money then nobody would be able to trade, the economy would grind to a halt.
More fundamentally, it is absolutely impossible that all debt could be paid off. THERE IS MORE DEBT THAN MONEY. It's easy to understand this when you think about where money comes from. Every time a bank lends people money it increases the gap between the amount of money in the world and the amount of debt. The bank lends you $5000, and demands you repay $5500. $5000 is temporarily added to the amount of money in circulation, but it must eventually return to the bank - plus an additional $500 that must go back to the bank too. When the debt is finally paid off, $500 more must have been extracted from the system than went into it. The only way to keep the system going is with increasing debt. Of course, banks spends money too - they have employees and shareholders who buy cars and houses, yachts etc, this pumps money back into the system, which slows down the debt spiral. (A very fat, and almost entirely parasitical segment of the economy that creates nothing real, but that's not my point). Even if the bank spends all the money it receives in interest, there is still a discrepency, because the money must be returned to the bank before it can spend it - at any one time there has to be more debt than money.
The value of our assets (in money terms) is proportional to the amount of money existing. Our debts to the banks are in terms of money. As credit collapses, the amount of money goes down, the "value" that people put on real items goes down (nobody can pay much if they don't have much money). If banks suddenely refused any further loans the banks would end up owning everything. (In fact - I strongly suspect that one or two of the biggest banks would end up owning everything, including all smaller banks). Nobody would have money to pay off their debts and the money they could obtain from selling their assets wouldn't cover it - not enough money would exist. The banks would own all the money AND all the property. This is not just a theoretical problem, it's an exaggeration of what happens during recession. Extending it to the logical conclusion highlights how much power lies with banks in the current system.
When banks lend people money, they increase the amount of money in circulation. This changes the balance between the amount of money in the world and the amount of stuff in the world. This slightly decreases the value of all money - it is the root cause of inflation. Effectively banks steal money off everybody else by lending out more money than they have. It's just a form of legalized forgery. A private individual would have exactly the same effect on the economy if he produced perfectly forged money that he was allowed to add to the system on the condition that he removed and destroyed the same amount at a later date.
An expanding economy needs an ever increasing amount of money. The more stuff in the world, the more money is needed. This money is invented by private banks in the form of debt. Even governments borrow their money from private banks. So we have this paradoxical situation where the most successful countries have the largest amounts of debt. Amazingly the USA has recently been able to start decreasing it's national debt, but this has been achieved by a massively expanded amount of private sector debt. People are more confident, they believe their shares are worth more, they borrow more money and invest more. More is collected in taxes due to increased wages, and for a short time the government debt can decrease, but overall debt always increases.
During boom times - the credit supply increases. The system keeps afloat by ever increasing amounts of debt. In order to service this debt, the economy *must* expand - it is completely impossible for the monetary system to stay afloat with a stable economy, because the only way the debts can be serviced is by creating new debts.
Obviously this debt cycle cannot quite go on forever. At some stage people lose confidence, and it becomes harder to get credit. Then businesses go bankrupt, banks foreclose on the assets, and we go into recession or depression. Then gradually things improve and we start over again - the only difference being that now more of the actual assets in the world (rather than just the money), are then owned by the banks.
So the boom/bust cycle is inevitable when all money is created in the form of debt. The system is inherently unstable. We end up with rather large debts. For instance, the national debt of USA is $5,673,018,308,921 (last time I checked). The estimated population of the United States is 276,004,098 so each citizen's share of this debt is $20,554.11. The money to service this debt is extracted (taxed) with menaces by the government and paid to the banks. If you wanted to be alarmist about it, you could say we are selling our children into slavery (or at the very least indentured servitude) to the owners of the private institutions that invent our money.
Whose idea was this wonderful mechanism for inventing money ? Amazingly enough, it was the bankers. In 1694, Britain's King William was having trouble with money and probably did not understand it too well. At the time governments were scratching their heads over how to pitch the speed of money supply to the economy so as to avoid periods of inflation and at the same time finance their wars, build their palaces and even, from time to time, make life bearable for their people. The bankers convinced King William that the bankers were the "experts" who understood money and that the job of issuing currency should be handed to them.
As the amount of stuff in the world increases, the amount of money needs to increase. An artist paints a picture and wants to sell it - the amount of stuff in the world has just increased. Either: more money has to be created everything; the price of everything needs to reduce slightly; or we have a world where their is plenty of stuff, but nobody can buy it. In fact, this is pretty much the situation we live in: there is plenty of stuff, but everyone is short of money.
Letting the banks invent all money in the form of debt is not the only possible system. For instance, the government could invent money and give everybody a certain amount each year. This scheme was advocated by Douglas in the 30s and was making progress before war broke out. The introduction of more debt free money into the economy would reduce the need for loans and gradually eliminate the boom and bust cycle. Of course if the government invents too much we end up with inflation. But we have inflation already because the banks are inventing money all the time. If people were given money, they would borrow less from the banks so we wouldn't need inflation. A lot of inflationary pressure comes from the need to make interest payments. This scheme is far less inflationary than you might think.
The reason that the current system (where money is invented by banks) has become dominant is that the current monetary system is pretty good at creating a vibrant thriving economy where enterprise is encouraged and financed - it undeniably encourages growth, in fact, it can't live without it. A stable economy is absolutely impossible in the current system, people must be perpetually taking out loans and investing. Without constant investment and new loans the money dissappears and we sink into recession. That's why the idea has spread so wide - it's the most competitive model so far seen.
It's not exactly perfect though. The tendancy to enslave populations into the service of bank owners is one flaw. An insatiable need to expand economies until the whole planet is covered in concrete is another. The necessity for people to work like mules their whole lives, scraping a living amongst plenty when automation should provide us with leisure is another. The maintenance of a huge parasitical segment of the economy that creates virtually nothing of value is another... I could go on, but I think you see my point - the current system is not ideal.
One good thing about the current system is that the wastefulness of private institutions is bounded by the fact that if they become too bloated, corrupt and stupid then they go bankrupt. Governments don't have the same market-place correction. Elections change the spokesmen, but the permanent institution that grows up behind our "elected representitives" is much harder to displace. It can reach far greater levels of stupidity and incompetence than is possible for private organisations. But the market place competition between banks doesn't help us much. When banks fold they get taken over by other banks. Banks have an even greater motivation to merge than other businesses - the larger they are, the less likely that money ever leaves their control, so the larger their possible debt/credit ratio. What this means is that larger banks can invent more money than smaller banks, thus stealing more from the rest of the world. The fact that stupid banks get taken over by clever banks doesn't help. It just makes the resulting mega banks more powerful than ever.
You can't really blame banks - they are just making the most of a preposterous situation. It should be the responsibility of government to create the money we need and distribute it amongst us. Counter-intuitively this would make governments less powerful. The present system gives them the power to do whatever they like, or more accurately the power to not do whatever they like. They control the
rate of the economy by controlling interest rates. They can obtain as much money as they want by increasing the national debt, and they can avoid doing things that people want by just saying they can't afford it.
An intelligent and informative book that explains this stuff and related ideas quite thoroughly is "Grip of Death" by Mike Rowbotham, Jon Carpenter Publishing; ISBN: 1897766408
http://rareformnewmedia.com/
And many credit unions also enhance their insured values beyond that with private insurance companies that cost less and aren't tied to the good faith of the U.S. Government.
Bah! take a little risk! So what if you get maimed or killed or your pants get set on fire! A little revolution would do us all good! Oddly enough I think I would gladly accept the risk that I would be one of the first against the wall just to know that the american people stopped sitting on their fat asses long enough to put me there. A little hardship would do a lot of these people good.
Kintanon
Check out JoshJitsu.info for Brazilian Ji
I think this hurts paypal. the Feds basicly said "Paypal is not a bank, because they do not have a bank charter." States can now say to paypal "You are not a bank, quit acting like a bank."
In other words, they are either a bank or not. If they are a bank, then they can handle money for other people. If they are not a bank, then they cannot.
Now bank regulations vary from state to state. There are banks in the US that I cannot legally get a loan with, because they are not licensed in my state. (It gets complex in ways I don't know when I want a loan from something that isn't in my state)
So what are they.. a wrapper for a bank? They don't hold any cash per se. But they hold money, sorta.. and allow you to withdraw.. sorta..
Lord knows.
-
ping -f 255.255.255.255 # if only
Could you be more ignorant of the US financial system?
Banking regualations help consumers.
They put many measures into place that protect consumers from a great many lending practices that would hurt consumers.
ow would you like to have a 0 day default? check got lost in the mail, too bad give me your home. even thought we got your home, you still owe us the money which we're going to garner from your wages, at an additional fee, and oyur now going to pay the "defaulters" interest rate of 50%.
or
we decided to take your money and not give it back, thanks for playing.
If a bank closes up, and is backed by a private insurance company, there is a point where the insurance company will just fold instead of pay. ask people in California about the large and trusted insurance companies that carried their earthquake insurance.
thats the kind of crap that goes on in non-regulated banking countries.
And if you think a non-regualted banking industry would have less reporting to the feds, you are wrong. There are very specific guidlines that the feds play by, unlike non-regulated countries.
I've scene how various banking industry work in many countries, its scary.
The Big Brother reference clearly shows the fact that you did not understand 1984.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
As well as many others... regardless if they are a bank or not they should still be held accountable.
(My story is posted at www.paypalwarning.com)
I say give us more non-bank banks. If I could find an unregulated money-holder for me, I'd use it immediately IF they had good third party insurers, better interest, and less government big brother intrusion into my transactions.
Hey, I don't mean to undercut your frothing-at-the-mouth anti-regulatory libertarian fervor, but Credit Union deposits are insured by the government.
Don't let facts get in the way of your rant, tho. Moderators, a 5 rating for that post is silly.
your a statistic waiting to happen.
suppose you live in a world with out electronics.
now, you want to buy something thats far away.
so you go to this guy who says he'll take the money, and give it to the seller, who then uses some other company to send you the goods.
and most of the time he's true to his word, and most transaction go off with out a hitch.
then more and more people start using him to carry there money.
one day the guy has a million dollars he's carring and decides with that much money, I could retire, so he just goes out of businss one day.
what recourse do you have? none.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
State regulators have also begun to question whether PayPal is operating an unauthorized money transmitting service. Last month, Louisiana asked PayPal to cease offering its service to state residents until it secured a license from the state to transmit money. PayPal is in the process of applying for such a license, Thiel said.
A license to transmit money? Why don't the just tattoo a 666 on everyone's forehead and be done with it?
One more reason no to use them.
Like the saying goes, the only way to deprogram a randroid is with a shotgunblast to the face.
The Issue that Paypal is not really is Bank is a subsection in defining what a bank. In addition to handling cash and transactions, it also issues loans. Since Paypal does not issue loans it is not considered a bank based upon that definition.
While this little caveat is there, I still say it is a bank. It is not anything like Western Union which is a simple transaction service which they claim to be.
Ceci n'est pas un banque.
Don't you see? The events of the Atlas Shrugged book are already taking place. Osama bin Laden is the viking pirate dude, Enron is the copper mine which went to hell, umm.. what else... disappearing celebrities like Diana and JFK Jr... and so on
You're correct--perhaps a bit too precisely correct--when you write that you're not insured by the FDIC. That's because credit unions are not insured by the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation--credit union deposits are insured by the National Credit Union Administration (NCUA). I don't know which three "seperate" [sic] insurance companies you're referring to, but deposits in any federally-insured CU in the U.S. are insured to $100,000. That insurance is backed by the NCUA Insurance Fund, which in turn is backed by the full faith and credit of the United States.
There are some CUs that are not federally-insured. States vary on how they regulate financial institutions--there are very sophisticated, completely sound institutions that only have state charters. There are also "institutions" that are little more than investors clubs with extra paperwork to file at the end of the year. There isn't any annual cost of federal deposit insurance--the deposit insurance funds are based on "lifetime" deposits (as opposed to premium-paid insurance). Yes--there are costs associated with banking regulation: regulations that ensure, among other things, that the bank actually has cash necessary to fund its continuing obligations.
Since you mention that your deposits are insured by three different international investors, it might well be that you are not a depositor in a federally-insured CU. In that case, you're wasting money. Federally-insured CUs do not pay deposit insurance: CUs deposited 1% of their assets in 1970 to form the NCUA Insurance Fund, and with one exception there has never been a need to assess member institutions any fees for insurance since. If your deposits are privately insured, your institution is paying deposit insurance--which costs you money.
Should the U.S. government be building water projects in districts of politically influential congressmen? Nope. Should the government promote commerce by ensuring a sound currency? Absolutely. Deposit insurance is a big part of that--and unquestionably a very good thing.
(Disclosure: I'm the president of a small software company. We have developed software for credit unions, both federally-insured and state-chartered. If you have a car loan from your CU there's a good chance it was processed with our software. We like the CU movement a bunch.)Western Union acts even more like a bank, they even offer Visa debit cards.
WU passes the duck test with a few more quacks and they rip consumers off in a way that makes Paypal look like saints, Yet I don't hear the same discussions.....
A good part of the fees paypal had to charge were absolutely necessary to pay for the fees that the VISA/Mastercard monopoly charge.
Now, as for other options, you have billpoint (which just makes ebay richer) or c2it, or e-gold.
Steven V.
I patented screwing your mom. But it got revoked for "prior art."
This seems *amazingly* short sighted. Sure there is some regulation and the requisite overhead and hassle. However, if I were in charge of Paypal I'd be screaming for getting legitimized as a real bank. How many people who do not use Paypal already due to security concerns would if it carried the legitimacy of being labeled an official bank. Also, how many current users would use it with more money on deposit? Since Paypal already has an established customer base of people who are accustomed to dealing with online money, why NOT pull out all the stops and offer real banking services? Paypal checking accounts, Paypal brokerage services, Paypal mortgage, Paypal etc, etc, etc. There is serious money to be made in these endeavors!
Just be like billpoint, which doesn't "hold" money, it just transferrs the money straight into your checking account.
I patented screwing your mom. But it got revoked for "prior art."
I guess I had my head in the sand with regard to all their other problems. What really has made me refuse to deal with them is that they insist on storing your credit card info forever in their database. Their policies clearly state that even deletion of the account will not cause your information to be removed from their database.
It is one thing to temporarily have your CC info in a transaction record for a day or so. It is quite another to require you to be vulnerable forever, even if you only did a single $10 transaction, to the weakness of their security. Their description and policies inspire no confidence at all.
Whoever has done business with them should eventually report a lost card to the bank and get a new number, because you have lost control of the info, and if bad charges show up, the burden of proof is on you.
I too haven't been hosed - yet. However their per transaction fees are beginning to get onerous. Frankly from your description of how YOU are using the service it does sound to me a nawful lot like a bank. An electronic one that never handles paper money to be sure but a bank nonetheless.
Try this, have someone send you money using PayPal and a freshly stolen but not yet reported-stolen credit card. After you've received the money have the card reported stolen. what what occurs to YOUR account even though you weren't involved in the theft. By all accounts YOUR funds and those of the person who sent you money will BOTH be frozen. Ouch.
For fun try this - goto PayPal and try to find a phone number that will lead you to a real live living human being that can help. It used to be, and migh still be, somewhat hard to find a phone number on the site. I tried something over a year ago whe nstories first seemed to be filtering out about problems with the service and had a hard time fincing a number. That did NOT bode well IMO.
I DO use the service, somewhat often (sent the roller coaster guy money today:-) BUT I do NOT keep money in there. These guys are apparently being ruled "not a bank" so protections I'd expect from such a thing don't exist never mind the crap they supposedly pull. They're just too shaky for me to trust using them as you do - I've got credit cards and debit cards for insured accounts already thanks. YMMV - just please be careful and wary. Claims of thousands of dollars being frozen are WAY too common IMO...
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Again, I've yet to have any problems with PayPal's service. Again, of course, I read the fine print that says I can't start transferring huge wads of cash without becoming a verified member (Unlike many dolts who don't, and wonder why PayPal won't cut them a check.).
Quite simply, their service rocks, and they're well established. I'd rather use PayPal than some up-and-coming knock off.
So, Paypal has the same opportunity to make profits with your money the way banks do, by investing it. This and their poor customer service says to me they're a bank.
(Amazing that in this age when all banking systems are interconnected that your transfers and deposits can still take up to a week... that's something the banks didn't want written out of the system during the last revision of banking laws.)
Big Daddy, Johnny, Burp, Aunt Zelda, Scott, Slurp, Big Momma
I mean look http://slashdot.org/subscribe.pl Yes yes, I know they state http://slashdot.org/faq/subscriptions.shtml#ss400 _because its easy this way_.
/. choses to portray paypall as the evil it is. But what I don't get is why they insist on making them money, and to alienate us uses so much?
Is it really that hard to take cc sales over the net? I've never programed a cc transaction, but the rest is rather simple, encrypted page, database, etc. One to two days of work, pluss the time it takes to get the sales use of a credit card.
Now
The spirit of resistance to government is so valuable on certain occasions that I wish it to be always kept alive
-Miko
Miko O'Sullivan
I have actually been wondering why banks don't adopt a paypal-like service. Pay-pal is a good idea, but I have never been overly enthused about giving them access to my bank account routing numbers because they are really just a company. Maybe a good, nice, well meaning company, but how do I know?
That is one of the main purposes of the FDIC insurance of banks is to provide legitimacy to the accounts they maintain so that I can trust that if I want my money back, I can get it back. I would really prefer to have my bank acting as PayPal than have PayPal acting as my bank.
-Rothfuss
The programming of the transaction is not difficult. What is difficult is the fact that in order to accept a CC you have to have a Merchant Account. Merchant Accounts are not free, and you still have to use a service for CC validation.
Granted, for large businesses which take in thousands of transactions per year, this is a cost effective method. However, for the smaller businesses and "Mom and Pop" type things (even in the brick and mortar world), such accounts can be cost prohibitive.
PayPal allows anyone to be able to take CC payments for pretty much any reason. Yeah, they charge you 3% or 4%, but there's no monthly fee (Merchant Accounts can run $60 a month or more).
Regardless of the reports of fraud, etc., I still think the PayPal idea, if not the company itself, is a good one. Besides, I've had my brick and mortar bank "accidentally" charge me 6 times for the same transaction (thanks Y2K "upgrade"). Just because there's a "regulatory body" doesn't mean that there won't be any fraud or other bad behavior.
Your Friend,
D
That's pretty damn funny!
Java is the blue pill
Choose the red pill
You do use an NCUA-insured bank. Still insured by our friends the feds.
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Suppose PayPall declared bankruptcy tomorrow?
I've used PayPal for over a year and it has saved me lots of time. PayPal is not a bank, it is a service used to hold and transfer money to other people. It may have some properties of a bank, but it is still not a bank.
If you want paypal's phone number (posted on here, but no-one seemed to care) its 888-221-1161 - and yes if you push enough buttons you will contact someone.
I don't know a lot about how banks work, however, so I'd be interested to hear the opinions of some bank-smart people.
-Miko
Miko O'Sullivan
Why a Duck?
Because even a goose is a duck when it's on the scales. (I've watched that scene way too often!)
Wow. A federal regulatory agency says that a new business does not fall under its jurisdiction. Notice that this is the agency itself volunteering not to extend its power, not a judge slapping them down.
As a libertarian, I'm impressed that a government agency has actually acknowledged a limit on its reach.
What's next? The FDIC director saying "and if you feel uncomfortable dealing with Paypal, don't put your money in there"? No, that's for me to say.
There has been a lot of attention paid to things that look like banks but aren't regulated as such. If they've decided PayPal isn't a bank, how long before someone attempts to link PayPal to terrorism?
p hi cs/attack/investigation_45.html
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/nation/gra
http://samvak.tripod.com/nm104.html
http://drteknikal.blogspot.com/
PayPal Account Insurance
The funds in your PayPal balance are FDIC-insured up to $100,000!
Security is our number one priority. That's why we place your PayPal balance in FDIC-insured bank accounts, and that's why we have legally committed in our User Agreement with you to continue doing this. The Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation's mission is to maintain the stability of and public confidence in the nation's financial system. To achieve this goal, the FDIC has insured deposits and promoted safe and sound financial services practices since 1933.
But isn't almost all of this common sense? I'm sure I heard this all before in my high school economics class, and that wasn't even the AP course. You must certainly know that the bank doesn't put your money into a locked box. And Interest rates are created by the government which affects all of us. And the net change in Interest rate is actually a lot higher than the government preaches because banks have the effect of creating money, which they can't do stupidly or they'd cause a panic, which has happened before. But what gets me is money is based off your labor, not gold or whatever. This means that the extra money a bank lends is backed up by the economy, the collective labor and product of the people. And most "labor" is actually done by machines which are operated by people.
So, if we could all accept that we must work (operate or build machines and automated factories) we could do away with money and get a LOT more accomplished. Imagine the inefficiency in our lives caused by money, paying taxes, managing cash, bills, etc., let alone Enron and bad management, qualifying for loans, insurance requirements, late fees, fines... y'know its really sad when you think about it. We hide behind contracts to cover our own asses instead of helping our neighbor. All because we're selfish and wouldn't work if we didn't get shiney things. I say let's work and let everyone have shiney things built by automated factories. If you can automate one you can automate a million or 6 billion! I'm finding more and more that the shiney things I want to have are the tools I need to get my work done (computers). Tools I almost know how to build myself and love to work on. I guess it all comes down to if you could live in a world without money would you work for free? Or would you even want to live in such a world? Lets make work and education interesting and fun!
You're taking it as a given that the functions of a bank are obvious, and that any institution that replicates these functions is also a bank. But lots of non-banks do bank-like things. Mortgage brokers, insurance companies, pawn brokers, assurance bond companies, wire service companies, re-insurance pools... The differences are obscure, but they are recognized by law.
If you compare PayPal with all the different pre-Internet financial institutions, the closest analogy would seem to be wire services, like Western Union. These don't actually do anything that banks don't do (though they do handle small transfers more cheaply and conveniently than banks). But they are not considered banks.
Here's one important difference between Western Union and PayPal. To do business with Western Union, all you need is a pile of cash and someone to send it to. But there aren't any PayPal offices where you can send or receive payments. In order to do business with PayPal, both sender and recipient must have an existing bank account! I suspect that requirement separates PayPal even further from banks in the eyes of the FDIC.
Banks are regulated either by the Comptroller of the Currency (that's what "National Bank" means) or by individual states. Savings and loan institutions are regulated by the Office of Thrift Supervision. Money transfer firms are regulated by states. Credit card issuers are regulated by Federal law. Broker/dealers are regulated by the Securities and Exchange Commission.
It's not clear what PayPal is, but because they appear to accept deposits, they're subject to regulation. Even if they store the money somewhere else, that doesn't help; that may make them either a broker or a mutual fund.
In the early days of money-market funds that offered check-writing privileges, there was a real question how they would be regulated. But that's been worked out. PayPal will end up being regulated as some kind of financial institution, even though it's not yet clear which kind.
Money is "created" whenever a bank makes a loan... it's all about assets and liabilities. Say Joe deposits $100 in the bank. Now in this fantasy land the reserve requirment is 10%, which means that the bank has to keep $10 of that $100 on hand to cover withdrawals. Ok, now Joe has a reciept that says he has $100 in the bank. The Bank has $10 in reserves, and $90 in cash. Now Bob comes in to get a loan. Bob is a nice guy, so the bank gives him the $90 loan he wants to buy a new pair of pants. Ok, now Joe has a balance in his account of $100, the bank has $10 in reserves, and Bob now has $90 in cash. Do you see how money has been "created" now? Money is created all the time by banks... not just the FRBs.
In the event that the bank didn't have enough reserves on hand, then they borrow from other banks overnight, and this is where the Fed Funds market and everything comes into play.
Anyway, the point is, Banks DO create money. When they lend out the $90, the don't have to borrow $90 from another bank to "balance" it. The balance is between assets and liabilities, the bank has a $100 liability with the deposit, but they also have the assets of the $10 in reserve and the $90 loan. So it does balance out, cept there is now $190 in the the money supply when there was only $100 before the deposit was made.
"We shall show mercy, but we shall not ask for it" -- Winston Churchill
I don't even know where to start with this one. I guess I won't even argue and hopefully people who take the time and have the patience to read all of this junk will realize how much of this stuff the guy is either pulling out of his ass or is from very poor sources. In either case he's terribly confused.
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e-gold is doing about US$3 million a day in transactions.
cya, Andrew...
This is my sig, exciting huh!
Why was this post modded down as a troll?
It's not one.
It's all true - read his sources and other information.
mod dada21's posts up please