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Class Action Lawsuit Says PayPal Restricted Funds
trenton writes: "CNET News.com reports a class-action law suit was filed Wednesday in California Superior Court in Santa Clara County. The suit charges PayPal with illegitimately restricting customers' access to their money. The suit asks for an unspecified amount of damages. Have you been ripped off or locked out?"
I could just as well sue the RIAA for taking my money
I can hear the price dropping now...
I've not had any problems with them
I have used Paypal exactly once. And exactly once I got ripped off. Not a good record.
Now I was ripped off by the seller, not PayPal, so I think PayPal should have the right to do whatever it takes to stop fraud.
seems the editors think any bad thing a company does violates your "rights".
i'm extremely concerned because i've heard stories of users getting paid with stolen credit cards... what does paypal do?
assume you stole the card and try to launder the money to yourself, so they freeze and seize all money in your account AND bank account if you made a withdrawl
now i'm nervous to even accept paypal for anything
MARIJUANA, SHROOMS, X: ONLINE?! - E
I had something somewhat related happen to me. I transfered money from my normal back account to my paypal account. The money was deducted Friday and wasn't deposited into my paypal account until Monday. I was unable to access my money all weekend. I tried to make a charge on my paypal card and it was denied so I assumed the money had yet to be transfered. I was wrong and by using my card from my other back account generated $88 in NSF charges. Sucky :(
Bastards did the same thing to me Monday. They completely botched my transaction because it was a time-is-of-the-essence matter. They accepted the credit card payment, then put a pending reversal on it the next day. I almost shipped the item I had sold, but luckily checked my email before doing so. They haven't even responded to my inquiry about the funds.
Hmm. Let's see. They don't want to abide by the rules that banks have to follow, yet they want to screw their customers even worse than a bank. Sounds like they want to have their cake and eat it too.
Does anyone have any info on how to become part of this class action suit?
"You done taken a wrong turn."
-Bill McKinney, in Deliverance
Visit PayPalSucks.com for an entire community pissed off at PayPal.com's practices.
A friend of mine had accumulated a pretty good amount of money in his PayPal account from sales over eBay. When he tried getting his money out of his account, PayPal told him that his account was being investigated for fraud (or something like that) and that he wouldn't be able to receive his money until the investigation was concluded. He eventually got his money, but only after having to wait much longer than he should have. I knew something seemed fishy with PayPal when he told me what had happened, but I didn't think it had reached this magnitude.
Good set of links too.
"It is a greater offense to steal men's labor, than their clothes"
But of course this article isn't about me. It isn't about the ninety-nine people that have had no problem. It's about the one guy who did. Seems like Paypal is like any other business. The majority of customers are happy and due to a few screw ups a small percentage aren't.
Before you flame me into oblivion, Paypal isn't a bank and isn't subject to the same laws. So just like any other business, you pays your money and you takes your chances. Some companies have good service when a mistake happens and some are lousy. There's your warning. Use Paypal, and any other company, at your own risk.
I accept paypal for both merchandise and for subscription services on my website [warnign pr0n] and have never had a problem with paypal, but I do feel like they give more protection to me as a seller than to people who use paypal to buy things. I have only had one dispute with someone who purchased something from my site, but paypal bent over backwards to help me prove that the dispute brought against me was false, and made it very easy for me to supply them with documentation proving the user received what he ordered from my site. ] Although that might have to do with them wanting to protect their commision. spooky
yes i run a goth/punk/emo porn site.
IIRC awhile ago everyone was saying that paypal was one of the .coms that actually had a sound business plan, and had the potential to turn a profit.
I only used them once or twice, and did shy away when they started wanted a lot of information about my banking accounts. Either way its too bad that this had to happen, after all they did provide a really nice service for people who needed to transfer money over the net, hell I would venture to say that e-bay would have not taken off as much as it did without the help of paypay. Oh well.
I bought a bunch of their stock
http://www.paypalwarning.com/
Visit the Wall of Shame for user submitted horror stories of Paypal's actions.
I browse Slashdot at +3, Funny
"PayPal raised more than $70 million in its IPO. The company, which has never posted a profit, lost $18.54 million on sales of $40.4 million in the fourth quarter last year."
And why did they do their IPO now? Raise cash for what exactly?
All those people sending us their credit card numbers weren't venture capitalists?
Oops.
Need I say more?
Beware, Nugget is watching... See?
An odd Pay Pal thing happened to me about three months ago. I own a small corporation that, at the time, offered only a very narrow range of technical services to life science researchers at only three US universities. A woman called me at around 6:00 am on the morning this all went down and told me that Pay Pal had given her my website URL because they had credited my account with some money she had paid for software (she said it was some kind of shareware or something). Very strange. I have never had any sort of an account with Pay Pal, and only really heard about them when she called. So is this an indicator of some sort of shell game they play with customers? I don't know, but it all just sort of sounds odd. Perhaps not everything is a conspiracy, but conspiracy theory does have a certain explanitory power that is hard to match...
No such luck :P
paypalsucks.com gives a lot of horrorstories about PayPal.
The service they provide is excellent, but that should not be confused with the level of service they provide, which, I must say is sorely lacking.
They have buggy software. This means on occasion, more money is withdrawn from your non-PayPal accounts then you authorized them to take. Giving them access to your checking account is a horrible thing to do, double-dipping is widespread and if you have any checks that need clearing, well......you are in trouble - assuming they haven't overdrawn your account in the first place (did it to me).
Due to the sheer size of their user-base, and their inability to correct their problems, much less deal with the number of complaints generated by things that aren't their fault (action sellers taking money and running, for example) they've taken to a scorched Earth manner of dealing with problems.
Any sign of trouble - your account is frozen - along with any money that might be there. Too bad if you're in the middle of a huge transaction involving lots of money that you really can't afford to lose.
This is like using a nuclear device to wipe out an ant infestation. It causes much more damage to innocent users than you could possibly imagine.
You have a problem, even if it is their fault they might not fix it. Wait more than 30 days to complain that they stole your money and guess what? The money is gone forever, you will never get it back. They will not allow you to file a complaint about their rape of your checking account if you wait more than a few weeks.
To sum it up, PayPal provides a great service, but they have shown themselves to be incapable of actually providing that service with any great degree of reliability or accountability.
This lawsuit has been a long time coming. More power to the plaintiffs.
Now, maybe this doesn't happen in every case. And maybe if you accept funds from unverified users you don't get protection. But I just want people to know that every fraudulent transaction doesn't result in Paypal seizing your account.
On the other hand, they are very difficult to get in touch with except by email (which we all know is easy to ignore). This is somehting that should definitely be improved upon.
Still, I like paypal. If you want complete control, I suggest you get a merchant account. Frozen paypal accounts are, I believe, rare. And I think they involve more than just a simple charge back in most cases.
Hi!
I had no problems with PayPal.
It takes a few days to have the money transferred
but I know banks which are slowere so it is not
fair to demand instant fund transfer fron non-bank.
Kubus
MSNBC.com has this story on PayPal facing a class action lawsuit.... is it just me or does it seem like /. is skipping this story? Maybe Taco bought a whack of shares in their IPO last week :)
Here a few more links to anti-PayPal sites:
paypalwarning.com
paypalsuit.com
boycott-paypal.com
And here is Google 's return on the query "paypal problems".
I wonder if this class action suit is for US residents only, as there are 13 million members, a good number of whom live outside the borders of the States. I recall the HP/Panasonic CD-R drive class action suit a year or two ago and being Canadian (go Team Canada today and tomorrow in Hockey!) I wasn't able to partake in it.
For those of you who want to sign up for this suit, here is the link to the lawyers registration form.
originally Here
El Karma: excelente(principalmente la suma de moderación hecha a los comentarios de los usuarios)
If PayPal wants the privileges enjoyed by banks they need to be regulated as a bank. It's that simple.
Max
My god carries a hammer. Your god died nailed to a tree. Any questions?
Last year when I had NO MONEY my fiance agree'd to loan me some money. She lived 300 miles away at the time. Well, I had my verified paypal account and she had her account as well. She gave me permission to transfer funds from her account to mine. I didnt use paypal for about 2 months after until I won an auction. I went to use paypal and found out my account had been restricted and the 2nd payment from her card to my bank account had been pulled (even though I had already transfered it to my bank) and showed that I owed PayPal $40 and my account was frozen! Her card was never refunded, I was never contacted by paypal nor could I contact paypal -- ever try to find their Phone #?
Anyways, whenever I win on ebay now - its bidpoint. That is how it should be done. No need for a seperate account or for them to have my bank info when I pay!
The ultimate network admin tool needs HELP!
I've used paypal for years and have never had a problem. They're quick and convenient what, what's more important, almost free. Everyone else charges. You get what you pay for, I guess, it's always worked great for me and the 3% or whatever they take from me when I get a credit card payment is well worth it.
spacefem.com
But thank you for asking.
NoPayPal is a site that made me avoid getting a Pay Pal account. I think Pay Pal is a great idea, however the business practices that is being portrayed is piss poor. Is there any competitors out there?
"It takes many nails to build a crib, but one screw to fill it."
This happened to the leader of the Webplayer Co-op a couple years ago.
We had a hundred or so people send him money via PayPal to make the WebPlayer order. They suspected something was fishy and froze his account. You can read the thread from the Webplayer Co-op egroup here.
Eventually they straightened it out, the WebPlayers were shipped and we received them, but PayPal sure delayed the process.
Not a debit card or checking account. If they screw you over with an unwarranted credit card charge, your can call your credit card company and stop payment on it. If they pulled money out of your checking account (either directly or through a debit card), you're pretty much screwed (good luck trying to get your bank to do anything about it).
FWIW, using a credit card for most purchases is actually good advice, because it avoids all sorts of frauds and other problems (for example, a restaurant in a foreign country once charged my card twice; I guess they thought since I wasn't from around there I couldn't come back and complain. The CC company removed the fraudulent second charge after a simple phone call...if I had paid with a debit card it would've been a real pain to try to get my money back). This is provided, of course, that you are disciplined enough to pay your credit card bill on time to avoid going into debt and paying high interest rates.
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
i know I'm going against the grain here, but...
:-)
I have used paypal on a number of auctions and have accepted money from others a number of times. It has been great. Ever notice how it is the cheats and liars that complain the loudest. Not that i am insinuating anything here.
Just a Tuna in the Sea of Life
Just today I got a reply from paypal(less than a week turnaround - they're really ansewering email now). They've locked my account because one of the credit cards was stolen and I discovered this when I tried to use it with paypal when it was over the credit limit. They weren't out any money, and they already had another credit card on file.
I've used paypal since the begining (when it was a way to send money with your palm pilot) and always thought it was a great service, untill this incident. Luckily I've never stored money in my paypal account and I've never given them my checking account information(mama didn't raise no fool). With their form letter response today, It's looking like it's time to investigate the paypal alternatives that will be happy to have my business.
Based on all this Bad Press I just closed my PayPal account. Who needs this kind of heartache. It seems to happen often enough and be painful enough to be worth avoiding.
fortunately at the time i only had about $80 in the account. at times i had nearly $1000 in there. so i went to transfer this $80 to my bank and it said my account was frozen pending investigation. i emailed paypal many times to many email addresses and go no response. then about 3, yes three months later i got an email from them saying that my account was unfrozen because i was found not to have been apart of the investigation. BUT, besides the poor explanation THE ACCOUNT NOW HAD $0.00 IN IT! so its been 2 months, probably 10 emails, and nothing
-micjordan@hotmail.com
To unfreeze it, I needed to fax them:
Despite the glaring violation of privacy, I did get the account unfrozen in under 24 hours, and I did find them easy to communicate with. However, I do believe that Paypal needs to be regulated as much as your local bank.
Well, we've been using PayPal for a while now to accept payments for our software, Notmad Explorer, which is Windows Shell integration software for Creative Nomad MP3 players, and we haven't had any problems yet.
In fact, PayPal's steps to verify identity and prevent fraud make us feel more secure. Of course, we don't have $30k in our account so maybe we don't make them nervous to the point where they put weird restrictions on our account, but it seems to work pretty well for small software publishers who need something that is extremely simple to set up, easy for customers to pay, and doesn't cost a lot.
When I first heard about PayPal a couple of years ago I thought "This is great!". Micropayments, done deal. I was excited and about to start receiving payments via Paypal.
Then I heard the horror stories about accounts being closed down and money even being reverse charged out of bank accounts. I stopped using my Paypal account before I even started, luckily.
Sure, you can do what someone else recommended--open a bank account just to receive PayPal payments and withdrawl the funds as soon as they come in. But at that point the hassle isn't worth it.
We still need a good micropayment solution. Something that is truly innovative and breaks paradigms. I'm not sure what it is, but whoever or whatever company comes up with it will be taking it to the bank.
I've had zero problems with Paypal, and use it quite often. The businesses I pay always get their money in a timely fashion. I get mine in a timely fashion.
:P
I'm not verified, either. What does this mean? Smart buyers and sellers wait to see the money actually transfer over (IE, past the point of 'STOP PAYMENT! STOP PAYMENT!') before sending goods.
As for limiting access to funds, the only thing I've heard of is if you're unverified, you can only yank out so much at a time.
Read the fscking RULES. Or what, we don't do that anymore? It's become fashionable to ignore agreements and terms, hasn't it?
Awww. Then get burnt.
I've had very good luck buying and selling with PayPal. I just wish I could get a debit card. I have a verified bank account with them but because they require a verified credit card and I don't use credit cards I seem unable to get a debit card. I'd love to be able to use PayPal as my main bank as I do most my shopping online and accept most my payments for my contract work as PayPal payments. It's a pain waiting 3-4 days to transfer to my bank so that I can pay for rent and food.
:)
I've been screwed by every big name bank I've had so I for one don't want PayPal to be more like a normal bank. I'm perfectly satisfied with them so far other than them being to careful with my money.
At what price learning? At what cost wisdom? The price is a man's peace of mind, and the cost is his life.
I liked them (and have used them fairly frequently for buying EBay items), however when I accidently sent someone the wrong amount and immediately realized my error, I could not reverse the transaction using *ANY* available option on PayPal. They *USED* to have the ability to correct transactions, but they seem to have quietly changed their rules.
I contacted the buyer and asked them to make an adjustment.
Not being able to correct a payment mistake shows that PayPal is running a peculiar type of business. Credit card companies allow you to void, or correct transactions, but PalPay has taken away the ability to do so. The question is why?
I just discovered it while reading a Salon article on PayPal's weak service. Apparently, it's run by Citibank, a REAL bank, so you'll less likely to get fucked over by them. (Keyword: less; banks still try to ram a dildo up your ass once in a while.)
Zodiac Survey
At the risk of bucking the trend here, the service I've gotten from PayPal has been pretty good. I mostly buy stuff online, and much prefer PayPal to sending a check, or, worse, a money order.
I'm disabled. Getting out to buy stamps, or a money order, is difficult. It takes several hours, and a few tries, to write out the envelope. Add to that, using snail mail from Seattle to anyplace *but* the West coast takes a full week. So, if I must pay by check, we've added a week's mail lag, then ten days for the check to clear, then it's a week more to get the item. By then, I've been dying to get it for weeks. Using PayPal cuts two weeks off of that delay. I like it.
The few times I've been paid with PayPal it's taken 5 days for my money to show up in my bank account, but they say that it might take that long. I wish they were faster - just how long does it take electrons to flow from them to my Seattle bank? - but they're likely making money on the "float", and I cannot begrudge them that perk.
Lemon curry?
Well that's one down and 49 to go.
Louisiana has declared PayPal to be a money transfer system (dah!) and that they require licensing from the state to do business in the state. Since they don't have such a license, they have to quit doing business in Louisiana. Other states are following, SO NOW IS THE TIME TO MAKE YOUR COMPLAINTS TO YOUR STATE AUTHORITIES! All of you who have problems with paypal need to contact their local banking and regulatory agencies and make "paypal" a very well known name to them.
Full article here:p al _problems_3.html
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/ap/20020211/tc/pay
Maybe we DID take the blue pill. You wouldn't remember anyway.
yeah they ripped me off... (Score:3)
by millenium68 on Friday February 22, @01:41PM (#3048827) [Alter Relationship]
(User #550864 Info) I bought a bunch of their stock
What do you really mean:
a) they ripped you off.... so you bought a bunch of their stock
b) they ripped you off.... because you have bought a bunch of their stock
c) both
d) neither
e) all too familiar... CowboyNeal!!!
Does the phrase DOT COM mean anything to you?
Now, granted, I don't keep any money in my Paypal account, but I do give them access to my bank account, which has never been overdrawn, or otherwise touched by them unless I wanted it to be. I don't make big purchases through them, mostly auctions online (i think the biggest I did was $50). Maybe they did rip off some people, I don't know. If they did they should get screwed, but they've treated me fine, so I'll continue to use them (besides, there really isn't a good alternative out there anyway)
Through EBay I sold a slightly used PDA to someone in the Ukraine over the Holidays and used the Paypal service to receive payment. I received the payment in full and withdrew the funds to my bank account. Then, 3 WEEKS later I got an email saying the the funds I had received were fraudulent and that I had to put the money back (about $700 USD)!! Since I live in BC, Canada I feel secure that Paypal will have to jump through hoops of fire to ever get that money from me. I only used the Paypal serivce once and I will never use it again.
The real problem with PayPal isn't with what it is, but with what it isn't. PayPal is *not* an escrow service. They say it flat out. And I'll be damned if I'll give my money in trust to a party that isn't.
Escrow.com *is* an escrow service. There are others. Yes, it costs more. But you have 1) protection, and 2) legal recourse if you get screwed.
-- Cerebus
that's what pisses me off about credit cards. It's CREDIT ok? What do I have to pay $20 a month? Know how I finally solved this? Every month I charge $20 to my credit card and dump it into my savings account, then 5 days before the end of the month I put it back onto the card. Now they're happy. Why? I dont get it. It's obsurd shit like that which really makes you wonder if there is anyone minding the store at credit card companies.
How we know is more important than what we know.
I for one have never had a problem with PayPal, and I've been using them for over a year and a half. I've needed to contact them for support exactly once (yesterday). Get this...I call the phone number and a REAL PERSON answers the phone on FIRST RING! Not only that, but they are courteous and helpful and resolved my problem in under 20 minutes. I've never had such a good support experience in my life.
`fortune -o`
...has been anything less than fun. Somehow someone got my password and changed my primary email address, thus not allowing me into my account. Luckily I caught the e-mail that this happened (at least PayPal notifies you of that, even though everything else sucks....) and immediately transferred all of my money out of my savings account that PayPal was linked to, I then called the bank and they said they'd watch my account and I should open a new one to be safe. I also wrote to PayPal, but didn't get a response until 4 days later. By that time, someone has already tried to withdraw over $900 from my account. And guess what they told me to do in their support e-mail, they told me to log into my account and fix it! Hello! If the problem is my account was stolen and the username/pw changed then I obviously can't!
Luckily my bank is being good about it and are not charging me for those overdrawn withdrawals. Needless to say, I will never use PayPal again, nor will I ever recommend it to anyone! Avoid it like the plague!
Two wrongs don't make a right, three lefts do!
To be fair, I still use paypal as a merchant. However it's only because I haven't found the time to go somewhere else yet.
I gave money to someone w/paypal. Paypal froze the account I put the money into. Now neither I nor the intended recipient has the money. Both of us have made repeated demands that they return the money or let it clear. They refuse.
-=Julian=-
PayPal's big problem is that they aren't staffed for the exception rate of a financial institution. In banking, less than 1% of transactions are exceptions, but exception handling consumes about 25% of bank resources.
Now that PayPal has moved away from being a peer to peer service (consumer-level PayPal accounts can only send money, not receive it), they're probably going to be regulated like a credit card issuer. In fact, it's not clear what PayPal's role is now that they basically have consumer accounts and merchant accounts. That's basically competing with banks that handle credit card merchant accounts, and the banks do a better job of that.
I have had them freeze my account and hold payments (supposedly randomly), but I have had them do it more then a few times. I am by no means someone I would consider suspcious, I occsionally sell extra things I have on eBay and use PayPal for payments (we aren't talking large amounts either, maybe 100 bucks a pop), also occsionally buy things and use PayPal to pay (again nothing huge).
But on 3 separtate occasions I have had payments held, and also on one occasion I have had my account frozen. And yes it did take me FOREVER to get a hold of anyone on the phone (thank god for "free" LD on my cell). I was told it was a "routine" random freeze, blah blah blah, several days later they "unfroze" my account. And yes it was a major and total bitch, but there really aren't any other shows in town, so what do you do?
Well Im trying, but he has the largest collection of cumstained interns in the known universe.
If an auction seller screws you over one way or the other, eBay's complaint process is rather lame and PayPal literally can't do a damn thing for you (speaking from experience here).
However, if you spare a little more money to mail them a money order instead, what they did magically turns into something called "mail fraud." Federal agents wearing dark suits and carrying badges begin looking for this person to throw them into pound-you-up-the-ass penetentiary for up to five years (multiplied by however many other people he's ripped off through the mail).
Of course, if this is the first and last time they defrauded someone through the mail, there's a chance the Postal Inspectors might not have the time to really give it much attention. But just because they're not activley seeking the person doesn't mean there's not a felony warrant issued for the culprit, which will make employment background checks, driver's license renewals and plane ticket purchases a whole lot more interesting. And that's before we wonder how often he gets pulled over for traffic violations...
I ask you: If you don't wholly trust who you're buying from, where can you get more entertainment for $1.24? Certainly not PayPal!
Idiot, what do you expect of someone from the Ukraine?
If you have been watching any of the anti-paypal sites this isn't a new issue. I'm going to assume that either the plantiffs or their lawyers made a good call and are bringing this up post-IPO so Paypal has a little more incentive to brush it under the table or fix it to try and protect their stock price.
There seem to be quite a few peole who've had too much money withdrawn by PayPal. IANAL, but it sounds like if it can be proven that PayPal knowingly let a problem like this continue after receiving the initial complaint, they can get charged with bank fraud (up to 30 years in jail and/or $1 million). PayPal has plenty of incentive to let these problems happen (since the money never gets transferred to somebody else) and there's no reason for this to be treated much differently from a forged check.
I had a seller back out on me after I'd already paid. Paypal was supposed to refund the $$ to me but refused. They said there was nothing I could do about it. I told the woman on the phone (after numerous calls) that there sure as hell was something I could do about it. I made the payment with me bank's check card. My bank's check card is a Visa Check Card and it affords all the same protection that any other card carrying the Visa logo carries, including fruad protection. I told her all of that and that I'd simply contest the charge and let Visa sort it out for me. She immediately told me to hold on the line and transfered me elsewhere. A guy quickly answered and was pissed from the word go. He was all but yelling. He spewed out some dribble about how if I contested the charge, their many lawyers on retainer would bring a suit against me and this and that and on and on and on. I laughed at him. Literally. And I told him I was contesting the charges immediately and a few other choice phrases. I contested the charges, my bank account was credited by the bank, and I never heard another peep about it. Screw me? No, screw you paypal.
According to this: [ http://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=p/gen/tra velers ] Travelers Insurance protects your checking account and PayPal account from unauthorized withdrawls.
"Security is our #1 priority. That's why we provide all individuals using PayPal with SafeWeb® Insurance from Travelers Insurance. Here's what you get:
Protection against unauthorized withdrawals from your PayPal account, including unauthorized withdrawals from any checking account you may have linked to PayPal, up to $100,000.
Insurance that is instant and FREE - you don't have to apply for coverage and there is no cost to you.
Assurance that with SafeWeb Insurance and PayPal's Data Security and Encryption, your money is safe and secure.
Under applicable regulations, the extent of your liability for an unauthorized transaction is largely determined by your promptness in notifying us or your bank if someone has gained access to your password, or if a transfer or withdrawal in your monthly statement is incorrect or unauthorized. It is very important that you tell us at once if you believe your user ID or password has been compromised, or if someone has transferred or may transfer money from your account without your permission. In such a circumstance, the best way to minimize your loss is to contact us. Notifying us quickly limits your liability. Please contact PayPal with any questions or to report unauthorized transactions and file a claim.
The SafeWeb Remote Banking Insurance Master Policy issued by Travelers Casualty and Surety Company of America, an underwriting company for Travelers Insurance, responds to losses that you would normally have liability for under applicable banking regulations, up to $100,000 in coverage per loss. Please see the Terms of Use for details on your responsibilities. "
- Sometimes you're the pidgeon, sometimes you're the statue.
Reading through the posts here, I can come to a few conclusions.
I saw the number "13 *million* subscribers" several times. According to www.census.gov, that's almost *half* the population of California. I'd like to see ANY business have 13 million customers and keep every single one of them happy. It just doesn't happen. Also, some of the posts I've seen with people complaining have been for absurd reasons.
Ex: "Someone got ahold of my password and..."
Whose fault is that?
Ex: "I accidentally sent the wrong amount on the transaction"
That's not PayPal's fault either.
If someone gets your email password and uses it to spam 10,000 people, is that your ISP's fault?
-kwishot
My attorney advises me not to comment about ongoing litigation.
;)
You can see PayPal's S-1 IPO filing here [1851943 bytes]. I haven't looked through it, yet, but from some other places I've heard it actually looks bad. Go see for yourself for the real truth.
now we need to go OSS in diesel cars
I've used paypal more times than I can count, I use it on at least a weekly basis. I have never had a single problem, nor do I know anyone who has had a single problem. My company uses it for business transactions instead of money orders buying used equipment. I use it for a lot of different uses. Not anyone I know has ever had a problem with it.
Sounds to me like a bunch of moochers looking for free money. Idiots.
...because I cancelled my PayPal account when their problems started getting publicity. I'm not sure they deliberately screw people, but with 10 million or so subscribers, it's a guarantee that a fair total number (albeit a small percentage) of people will have very nasty experiences. I don't have an overwhelming need for PayPal's services, so I figured I'd just remove the possibility of getting screwed. The potential for agony is extremely high, considering what they can do to your bank account.
Do you (and about 30 other people in this thread) realize what using using the spelling "withdrawl" makes you look like? It makes you look like a yutz, that's what.
Jesus Friggin' Christ.
Paypal has been a great gift to the computer world, specially when it comes to ebay and other auctions. I haven't had any problems with paypal ever, trust it very much, and will continue to use it and tell the world about it. It is so sad to know that somebody is taking a shot at a company that provides a service for free for most. I guess some people decide that this is the way to make money. Sueing can sometimes be a cowards response, I say take it out back and beat the poop out of somebody!
Supposedly that might be a stolen credit card. In any event, if the charges are reversed on you, you have to be able to bring legal action against whoever made the payment (assuming you give the money back to PayPal, which I'm assuming you won't be doing, so this is all academic talk). If PayPal tries to contact you again, see if they are willing to provide you with that legal information (they should be able to get it from the credit card company that reversed the charges on them). When people reverse credit card charges, they can get this information and pursue conventional legal civil action (complicated in your case by the trans-national aspects).
Also check your credit report in case they try to stick it on there as an unpaid debt. That kind of thing happens.
now we need to go OSS in diesel cars
Every post that moderators have bumped up have been negative experiences. What about those of us who have had positive ones?
I have used PayPal for a year now. I have done probably over 1,000 transactions of people sending me money and me purchasing goods. I have not ONCE had a problem with their service.
I've paid for many things through PayPal and using my debit card. I have never been overcharged. I have never had funds taken out of my bank account that were not authorized. I've never had a problem. I've never had a person take my money and run.
Those who post here about their bad experiences are a vocal minority. People tend to speak up when they have a problem with a service, but say nothing when the service is good. PayPal would not be in business in the first place if they weren't doing something right.
Of course there are people who have had problems with PayPal, it happens at every company -- but I think it is unfair to PayPal to have only negative posts regarding their company moderated up for all to see when really there are many, many more happy customers than customers who are not satisfied with the service.
I'm a firm supporter of PayPal, I have done probably over $10,000 in transactions with them with absolutely no problems.
which has a wall of shame full of horror stories.
.1% have a problem, that is 13K people with only 400 Customer Service Reps. So the hold time is 30 minutes and often they just rudely say "You violated terms or conditions", or "Fax us all your identity papers - bank account, utility bill, driver's license", then they seem to have a part-time fax, and they constantly lose the faxes (apparently they haven't thought about things like case numbers).
The problem is that with 13M users, if
Meanwhile your account is locked without anything you can do about it, often for reasons you don't know or know to be false (a buyer pays, but PYPL thinks something is wrong with it and/or the seller and locks both).
When it works, it's fine. But if they ever lock an account (and you don't have to do anything) it is a nightmare.
Do you even know the bank rules for online merchants?
If you want to accept credit cards over the Internet it's tricky to get a merchant account.
When you do get one you have to have a reserve in your account at all times which card issuing banks can help themselves to if their cardholders dispute a transaction. In addition to that your bank will typically assess a $15 chargeback fee which just magically disappears.
Should your ratio of sales/chargebacks for any month exceed 2.5% or 1% US customer disputes Visa will fine you $100 per chargeback on top of that. Don't keep up your reserve and your bank will hold ALL your money for at least 6 months.
Starting to see PayPal's problems yet?
I can tell you they're not alone in feeling it's unjustified, but they have to pass this on.
http://www.websitebilling.com/pressrelease.html
I've been using PayPal for my eBay auctions for over a year and a half, and never had any problems. I've kept a balance of around $1000 for a while, it only earns 2% from the money market fund, but hey its better than nothing ;)
;)
I have their debit card, and that has worked great, and the 1% cashback isn't bad either. I have never had a problem, so I don't know what their customer service is like though. However, I think they do have enough features, and its easy enough to use, that they should be successful enough to keep a solid stock price. Who knows how it will really go, if the stock tanks I'll withdraw my funds
"We shall show mercy, but we shall not ask for it" -- Winston Churchill
I'm sure nobody cares, but I've never had a problem.
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$x=~y+ -xz+\0-Tx+;print$_^chop$me for split'',$x;
complaining much? (Score:1, Troll)
by spacefem (spacefem at starmail.com) on Thursday February 21, @08:58PM (#3048905)
(User #443435 Info | http://www.spacefem.com/)
This is a troll why?
3 months ago I bought a printer on ebay and used Paypal to handle the transaction. To make a long story short, the printer never came and I filed a fraud complaint with paypal. After literally a month and a half of 'investigation' I finally receive notice that they managed to recover $17.50 out of the $222.00 I sent the guy!
I called VISA this morning trying to recover the rest of my money but they said that since its been over 60 days they can put the complaint in but I shouldn't except to recoup any of the money.
Just a word, DONT go through PayPal's horrible "FRAUD" insurance bullsh*t-- Once you think you have been ripped off IMMEDIATELy call your credit card company and have them deal with the situation..
This isn't the first time I've been screwed over, and I don't plan on using their service in the future.
Never had a problem (Score:0, Troll)
by swv3752 (swv3752SPAM@hotmail.com) on Thursday February 21, @09:18PM (#3048992)
(User #187722 Info | http://www.fortuneci...allows/50/index.html)
... or something.
I went to the eBay Smart Search page and entered "no paypal" and checked the buttons to also search descriptions. It matched 61367 items. Interesting. I'm sure the number will change every minute.
now we need to go OSS in diesel cars
First of all it's a bad idea to keep any balance on your credit card at all. It's just about the worst possible loan you could get from anywhere - even "low-interest" cards have ridiculous rates in the neighborhood of 12-18%.
But as for minimum monthly payments, of course they're going to make you pay something. Otherwise you could just keep spending up to your limit and then never pay them back - they'd essentially be giving you free money.
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
For those of you who want to sign up for this suit, here is the link [jacobylawyers.com] to the lawyers registration form.
:)
Okay, since I'm talking about lawyers here, I'll qualify this by saying that I'm about to state an opinion. So don't sue me, okay?
This law firm, who is handling this class action suit, is little more than a bunch of ambulance-chasers. These guys have advertised here on KTLA and KCAL since I was a little kid. They always seemed creepy and slimy to me, like that Larry H. Parker guy...even as a kid, I wondered why good lawyers would need to advertise on TV.
Someone else said it here, someplace...doesn't it strike anyone else as strange that this suit was filed right after the IPO? That just sort of stinks to me.
Also, I've been using PayPal for a few months, to accept payment for some eBay auctions, and I've never had a single problem with them. Of course, I think I've had a grand total of 6 or so transactions, so YMMV.
After reading all of this, however, I'm getting my 50 bucks out tonight.
Or spending it on my own copy of GTA 3.
You are an idiot to offer your auction to eastern europe. fuck some people, shut the fuck up before trashing an awesome service. moron
yep they screwed me and didn't respond to my e-mails to customer support.
This is the same reason you should never use a debit card to make purchases online unless it offers the same protections that a major credit card offers. Many don't. Some do. Be sure before you use it online.
It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds. - Captain Hammer
Accept payment by E-Gold and help to start a real digital economy. Your money is secured against real gold. You can transfer ownership of some gold to anyone in the world. This is what digital payment should be. The more people accept this the sooner the network effect starts.
Maybe you live in interesting times
It doesn't have to be through the mail to be federal, ever hear of "wire fraud"?
I signed up for Paypal last month to sell some stuff on Ebay.
After reading all the material about the problems people have been having, I deleted my credit card from the site.
(Ok, I should have got my ~$1.50 verification charge back, but I'll live with that).
The fact that it would seem IMPOSSIBLE to get hold of them to sort out any potential problems finally made me see sense, and I decided that I didn't want my details available to them.
Some posters here seem to almost use them as a bank - certainly in the UK I have no comeback against them as they are not registered as a bank, and the UK banking laws are (I hope) relatively stringent (the BCCI scandal saw to that). At least if my bank messes up, I can normally get something sorted out, and I can appeal to another authority if need be.
Another advantage to mailing payment is that you have a verified address for the seller. They must pick up the mailed check or money order. I'd be just a little more careful with a seller who refuses money orders.
While my experiences with ProPay have been limited, I have not had a problem yet.
Perhaps someone has some insight regarding the services ProPay, a competitor of PayPal?
"There ought to be limits to freedom"
True, but mail fraud can be easier to prove if you still have the money order receipt (and/or delivery notification from certified mail if you paid for it). And Postal Inspectors worry about mail crimes exclusively and are more likely to have the resources available to do something than the FBI.
I've been using paypal for well over a yeay, have done countless (roughly 30) transactions, each without a hick-up, each an auction from eBay. However there seem to be some simple rules people are ignoring, I see people compalin that it takes days to get money transferred from there bank. Well guess what, they say right when making the transfer "May take 3-4 business days" which is fairly typical of any EFT. So if your trying to make that last minute bid on an item and dont have paypal funds, then guess what, your screwed!, you can try to blame someone, but the fault is your own. I dunno, I dont want to sound like the PayPal fanboy, but it seems like most of the jazz here is just user mistakes or misunderstandings about the service. Or users ripping them off, and NOT paypal. People are way to jumpy about everything now a days, jesus. Oh well, got me, maybe I'm just lucky *shrug*
- John
dyndns.org has been accepting PayPal as our main source of income for quite some time now - we've had probably over $200,000 pass through PayPal without a single problem. In fact, yesterday they called to tell me that we've been assigned a dedicated account manager, with a secret VIP phone number and direct e-mail address and everything. So it seems that, at least to their larger customers, they're at least TRYING to improve the customer service.
All of these lawsuits and threats from states are sure making us nervous, though, and due to various other things we were probably dropping PayPal soon - that timeline's just been moved up now. But I agree with what someone said or at least alluded to earlier; even if 10,000 people have had problems like this, that's only a tiny fraction of PayPal's actual userbase, and that's pretty impressive to me.
Perhaps they're dedicating too many of their staff to providing "dedicated" account managers to their bigger "VIP" accounts. They have special phone numbers ("don't give this out to anyone else, it's just for our special VIP customers") and real e-mail addresses and everything. They seem to be staff at the same (or yet another) call center out in Omaha, Nebraska, anyway, though - the home of telephone support outsourcing!
I agree with what you are saying. However, when I talk to a good friend of mine who does A LOT of E-Bay business (mostly as a buyer) she thinks that many people won't bother with your auction if you don't take PayPal. It's a big debate we have but if what she is saying is true it is hard to have a successful auction without using PayPal.
I've used paypal for a few years to pay eBay stuff out of my checking account..never had a problem ,but i said from the green light i'd never ever ever ever keep a thin dime in my PayPal balance
If you can't see the value in jet powered ants you should turn in your nerd card. - Dunbal (464142)
Say that I have a paypal account and I "upgraded" to "premier" because paypal told me it's better.
Now say that I donate $100 to some site. (say vorbis.org). Ok it says I sent $100, no other message.
They get a message. "Do you want to accept $100?"
They accept. Problem is that only $96.60 was put in the account. No message or warning about the premier fee (2.9% +$0.50) taken.
It was a donation, so the organization does not complain. I was never told about the fee, so I don't complain.
So how much in hidden fees did PayPal rip people off with $200,000? Of course they give you special treatment.
CertaPay will launch soon in Canada. This is a system supported by the major banks.
"...if you spare a little more money to mail them a money order instead, what they did magically turns into something called "mail fraud."
Actually, A little "more money" is more like $0.90. The USPS has flat rates for Money orders, and actually has started a service which directly competes with PayPal's services. It's like a secure escrow service, and funds arent released until your package is delivered. $0.90 is *well* worth peace of mind.
The good old USPS has a system called Pay@Delivery, which essentially acts as an escrow service, and doesn't release funds until after the Delivery Confirmation is sent through. I've used this service, and works beautifully. And, you have the financial backing of the US Government, and mail fraud protection with it automatically.
I've had several situations come up in the past where I made large purchases on my PayPal debit card, and then they sat in their system marked "pending" for as long as a week before they cleared. Many merchants don't really report the true amount of the transaction to services like PayPal during this "pending" time window (still don't get why this is... poor quality transaction software I suppose?). Every time I buy gas at Mobil, for example, the transaction shows up as $1.00 until it clears.
Because of this, you can actually have a situation where PayPal shows you have quite a bit of money available in your account, when really - it's already been spent.
Seems like someone wanting to screw over PayPal could take advantage of this situation and buy much more than they really had in the account, and then close it out.
Your friend is right, IMHO.
I do a lot of eBay business, too, and that's the only reason I keep a PayPal account around.
The ability for someone to click and pay, and be done with the transaction, is a great incentive to buy.
If I post a product for sale, identical to another one up for sale at the same price, I'll usually get mine sold first if I take PayPal and the other person doesn't.
As I keep telling people, just don't leave too much money sitting in your PayPal account. Immediately transfer most or all of it to another account, where it's FDIC insured and where you don't have to worry about your money being frozen by PayPal staff.
Show me facts mis-represented. I'm just saying that there is some number of people out there (certainly smaller number of people than items, but counting the actual number of people isn't so easy) who are not trusting enough of PayPal to work with them. There could be more than list things like "check, cashiers check, or money order only" or the like. I didn't count those, either. But I will assume that percentage-wise, this represents about the proportion of people that don't want to use PayPal.
I do believe 1% to be significant in this case. 1% is an awfully high number if it represents people who mistrust an organization. Considering that a great many people won't have that mistrust until they actually lose money, that really makes 1% a serious number. Would you put your money in a bank which had statistics that said 1% of the people won't get all of it back with no recourse?
I just ran the search again today. The number is now 66824. Of course that could be because there are more auctions active today, too. So let's see. Trying "paypal only" I get 98565. That's an increase, but not as significant of one.
now we need to go OSS in diesel cars
I've had the same good luck with PayPal for many dozens' of Ebay auctions, and still use them.
I did, however, join the WebPlayer coop where a very hardworking and industrious fellow (Slatch) negotiated to buy a pile (> 400) of the little personal Internet appliances from the manufacturerer when their "sell you the box, hook you on our ISP" service died like all the others of it's kind (e.g. I-Opener). Anyhow, we all agreed on methods and such and e-mailed Slatch our funds. And according to PayPal this behavior tripped, some undisclosed, undocumented limit for "suspicious" activity.
Everybody stood behind the hardworking fellow, but the hundred or so people who called to complain that they didn't have their money and that the recipient didn't either, got the same line, "This is really a matter between us and the recipient." Slatch forwarded them obscene amounts of data, to get his account unfrozen, and it did finally happen, but it was weeks.
Luckily, no-one is ever really desperate to get a new hackable-netappliance.
So as useful as I find PayPal, I can't credit them with being a good company, as any company can deliver good service when all their scripts are working, and in fact, doing all the work. The hallmark of good businessfolk is how they handle things when they go awry. My observation would have to be, "poorly."
It was explained to me once: as I understand it, the amount in your account is not debited until the transaction clears, but you are not allowed to withdraw (when closing an account) the funds on "merchant hold". kinda of a shadow balance type of thing. Anyway, no idea if paypal has this, etc....
Slackware: old school feel, new school gear.
The USPS has flat rates for Money orders, and actually has started a service [usps.gov] which directly competes with PayPal's services.
A service which I can't sign up for, because it requires a non cell-phone number, which I don't have. I pretty much decided it was too much information they wanted when they asked for my driver's license number, anyway.
Despite that I'm determined not to give Paypal my primary checking account number or let significant sized balances sit in my Paypal account for long periods. Right now I buy more stuff on Ebay than I sell, so I can spend Paypal balances to other Ebay sellers instead of moving them to a checking account. If I start selling more, I'll set up a special checking account just to receive Paypal transfers, and empty it out regularly.
Want a quick way to get support from PayPal? It's quite simple, really. Just send an email to didnotmeetexpectations@paypal.com. When I sent an email through their support page it took over a week to get a response. When I sent one to didnotmeetexpectations@paypal.com I got a response the next day. Just be sure to add this line: "I asked this before but the question was never really answered." ;)
Ah, I should get an award for manipulation of bureaucratic systems...I've manipulated my school more times than I can remember, PayPal, NuSphere, Microsoft...oh dear, I've said too much.
[insert witty comment here]
I had a bad experience with PayPal and would never use them, or recommend their service to anyone. They advertise that they increase the protection of your financial information because the merchant never has access to your bank information. Sounds good in theory.
To make a long story short using PayPal as a third party to process transactions may, in my opinion and experience SEVERLY limit your consumer rights to process a refund through your bank by the "chargeback" process. When I submitted a request to my bank to process the refund the only information my bank could "see" was PayPal, so they processed an electronic refund from PayPal, not the merchant who had my money. You try and explain to a bank that you paid through PayPal. Most of them have never heard of PayPal. Needless to say I went through a couple rounds of trading money in my bank account and PayPal account.
My advice is that you research what your rights are when you make a purchase using your bank debit card versus your credit card. They are not the same with all banks. Don't assume that your rights to obtain a refund after using a credit card in conjunction with the PayPal service are the same as using your credit card alone. You do have rights when making a credit card purchase, but there are time limits and also distance requirements that dictate how long you have to initiate a claim. It is my opinion that PayPal interferes with those rights. I am surprised they have not been sued over those issues.
From now on I will only use my credit card to make purchases online. I was finally successful in getting my money back. After PayPal had given up, I maintained a weekly email and letter writing campaign to the company and they finally sent me a check.
I always found it curious that paypal.com appeared a few months after I e-mailed the entire code to
the server behind tipjar.com to someone in california who said they were going to help extend
it, and who I never heard from after that.
Anyway, tipjar.com continues to provide it's
pathetic level of service and eye candy (even though H&R block has now gotten on the "bright
green == money" band wagon) and we are doing
a redesign of the static web page instructions
currently, and will be releasing a GPL version
of the tipjar software, to be called "dotGNU CashBox" some time this year, which will turn
any merchant selling some good or service into
-- ha, get this -- the central bank of a virtual
nation that deals in a currency backed by whatever
good or service you are selling. No really,
isn't "in-store credit" a kind of currency issuable
by any store? Is it not possible to satisfy a
personal IOU between two regulars at Zest-o-burger
with coupons for Zest-o-burgers?
Getting mentioned in the NY TIMES and USA TOADY
isn't a kick in the teeth, either