Slashdot Mirror
China Shuts Down 17,000 Internet Bars
Astin writes: "According to this article, Chinese authorities have shut down more than 17,000 Internet bars for failing to block Web sites considered subversive or pornographic. Out of the 94,000 Internet bars in China, 17,488 have been shut down and another 28,000 were ordered to install monitoring software soon. Of the 27 million Internet users in China, about 4.5 million rely on these bars. Foreign news organizations fall under the category of 'subversive'."
Some drunk came into the stop N Go and Peed on me! I am wet, and I may malfunction. Please help.
I am a sentient ATM.
CNN and Porno are the same evil in china?
Looks like they are thinking before their time!
It sure sounds rotten, but it is their country. Additionally, there's something like 78% of the "internet bars" open for business.
Does Slashdot count as a "foreign news site"?
I can't imagine not being allowed to read Slashdot.
In an authoritarian Marxist country, any site ending in .com is going to be considered subversive....
grep -ri 'should work'
Who would've thought that asian porn sites would be popular in asia?
duh
China sucks. I feel bad for the people that live there. How come they dont revolt? If the USA had that happen, we'd all start killing each other.
slashdot: where everyone yells sarcastic metaphors to themselves to understand the issue
It's too bad that all of this is happening and places like SafeWeb are shutting down.
I do recall hearing, however, that recently China began to allow access to cnn.com. Does anyone remember this or know for sure?
What a shock, who'd have thought that China would have bad Human Rights Practices.
Well, there's government wastefulness at its finest... How many man-hours did it take to sweep 90000+ "bars"? And how are they planning on enforcing this? It would seem that if these are small one-room shops, that if the government were to shut one down, it would just pop up again elsewhere.
We might not like it, but China has their way of life.. and that's not going to change any time soon.
As far as the internet bars go, serves them right for not installing monitoring software. They violated the law - the got shut down. I'm sure as soon as they pay their fines and install the proper software they'll be back up and running. China is not like Russian in the days of Stalin. They're actually a very progressive society - for socialists that is...
Why is anyone really surprise by this move by the Chinese government? It's not like they're known for being a bunch of liberals after all - just ask some of Falun Gong for instance how they treat ideas that they don't like. No, the Chinese government may like to talk about their progressive nature and "liberalising" (heh) their country, but the truth is they're as big a bunch of Reds as the Soviets ever were.
How is though that the US is prepared to kiss ass in order to trade with them when we spent close to fifty years fighting the Red menace before? Modern USia has quite simply lost any semblance of morality and ideology other than the dollar and a kind of rabid Christianity. Whatever happened to fighting the good fight against communism because it threatened the freedoms we fought so hard to win?
Are our principles now to be sacrificed because we want cheap Chinese products? Can this country sink any lower?
How long until we see "17,800 Internet Cafes in the United States were shut down last week due to the newly passed Eagle Act, which requires blocking all pro-terrorist sites."
?
http://quiz.ravenblack.net/blood.pl?3357354385
People are complaining about the loss of civil liberties and privacy in the US with the wake of the 9-11 attacks. But be thankful that we still have freedom of speech and press and that we aren't getting government filtered content stuck down our throats. I am suprised that though a lot of china is so technologically advanced, their society is not...
-
aphex
I Steal Music!
As I recall, it didn't work out so well.
Curb CO2 emissions: Kill yourself today!
but if you are going to run a business in China, you have to play by the rules.
I have no pity.
Don't like it, move to Hong Kong or Taiwan.
Maybe that's because most foreign news services are simply propaganda?
Yeah, and of the 1,867,465,234 spammers in the world, 86% probably depended on these Internet bars to relay mail, also.
From the article:
"Some youths will submerge themselves in Internet bars for long periods, playing unhealthy games and adversely affecting their development as normal students."
If porn and video games do not make for normal students, I dare say that there has never been a normal male child, ever. Sex and games occupied most of my time while I was a student.
And I'm plenty normal. Just ask my psychiatrist.
Talisman
"Study your math, kids. Key to the universe." -The Archangel Gabriel
Doesn't mean I should accept what they're doing to us because it's not as bad as what China's doing to their people. Wrong is wrong, no matter the extent thereof.
I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
Didn't you know that CNN doesn't tell the whole truth? Capitalist pigs! Does not surprise me that China want's to shelter their people from the real world. That's how they try to keep everyone scared enough to be submissive.
"I think you know what I'm talkin' about, Mr. President; We're gonna kill us a mummy!" - Bruce Campbell as Elvis Presley
Funny how this happens JUST after Chinas entrance into the WTO, and just after the Chinese government told the world that now that they were in the WTO, they werent going to disregard human rights so much. Funny how the internet bars that service the foreign press in China, get closed down shortly after the largest contigent of foreign press leave China. The investigation is going on since April, but nobody wants to rock the boat until China is in the WTO, and all the press and other foreigners have left. The news will be just swallowed up, the majority of people wont even hear about it, and China gets to say HA HA and you beleived we were going to change you morons.
This might not seem like a big deal to people, but the people they arrest of online dissent get lumped in as Falun Gong members and can be executed. This isnt that they cant view porn. They cant see whats going on in the world. Is CNN Subversive? It is when the chinese government lies to its citizens every day.
GOD THE WORLD IS SO CORRUPT it makes me hate it. And everyone tomorow is just going to say business as usual and carry on the same way. When it happens in America, you remember that you all watched it happen, and the opinions you took on China and Saudi Arabias actions.
Yes, we do.
A remark like that clearly shows me that you are a terrorist. By the powers given to the US government under the almighty 'Patriot' Act, I would like to see you arrested, given a swift trial in secrecy, and executed.
I wouldn't be so quick to say that. Now that the U.S. is "at war" i wouldn't be surprised to see more censorship popping up left and right. Now admittedly, we do have a long way to go before it gets that bad, but i doubt many americans could be bothered to kill (and conversely to die) for their freedom of speech and freedom of asociation, hell many can't even be bothered vote for those freedoms, some can't even be bothered to vote at all.
During World War II we locked people up for their ethnic background, and during the cold war we persecuted people based for allegedly belonging to subversive political organizations that supported things such as a living wage and racial equality.
What i'm saying is that we shouldn't be so smug, this sort of thing isn't as far fetched as one might think.
---
Play Six Pack Man. I
The most telling point in the article:
The government wants to encourage the Internet's growth as a commercial medium. But Beijing fears its other use as a forum for political dissent.
Now let's revisit the second sentence:
But Washington fears its other use as a forum for terrorist activity.
So, Beijing mandates NetNanny, and Washington mandates Carnivore.
Yep, sure am glad I live in a society completely unlike China.
Please donate your spare CPU cycles to help fight cancer and other diseases
When people use the internet in cafes or bars they are the most time very drunk and write stupid things.
For example I know a dude who really posted on a very popular website that he got email from Afghanistan when there is no electricity or water there and the tabilan shot people for having computers, very stupid indeed.
So this decision might actually rise the quality of the internet automatically but I don't know if the stupid "I-got-email" bloke is from china sorry.
Some chinese might have trouble to get truthful information in this repressive system but intelligent people always know how to get this information because the definition of intelligent people is: people who know how to get truthful information.
Owner of a Mensa membership card.
Is anyone surprised?
BTW, where can I get a high-resolution picture of that man standing in front of the tank in Tienanmen Square?
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
This should help those of us in the USA keep things in perspective when we are complaining about DMCA and Carnivore. Not that we shouldn't fight these things, but we should always remember it could be a lot worse -- and we should be thankful for the freedoms we still have, most of which are (still!) not being threatened.
And while we contribute to the Dmitry Sklyarov legal defense fund, we should remember that even though he's wrongfully charged with violating a wrong law, there are others in the "People's Republic" of China who are being tortured in unspeakable ways for just receiving e-mail from foreigners and reading the news on the web.
The Chinese government did this, to a lesser degree, in July, shutting down 2000 internet cafes. They'll continue to do this, as public anonymous entrance points to the internet are much harder to track and discipline; the user is usually long gone by the time you examine the logs.
There's a great quote from this article:
a Web site published opinions expressed by Communist Party leaders that excoriated the effects of "online heroin" on its masses, particularly on its youth
If the Internet is "online heroin", slashdot is "an online jet-powered crackpipe burning a two ton ball of primo Detriot crack, laced with LSD, PCP, Ecstasy, and some weird shit we've never seen before".
If guns kill people, then CmdrTaco's keyboard misspells words.
I can partially understand why Chinese gov't would want to do that. I get my news about the world from www.pravda.ru/ www.izvestia.ru in Russia (I live in the US, though). I've compared the stories on CNN to the Pravda. It is rather interesting to see how CNN feeds news to the US public (CNN correspondents were advised to constantly remind the viewers that "We are doing this to the country that harbors terrirists" when they would show a 1-2 second shot of hospital full of children wounded in the bomb attack). I guess what I am getting at is that US news machine is now in full gear, providing the "happy" details of the war to the people who are affected by it, and not giving the full detail, and if Chinise gov't would actually provide news coverage thats better than CNN, then Chinese would be better off.
Imagine that sort of banning of certain books, films or even thoughts happening in the USA? Never!
If the Chinese government takes away Internet access for millions of users, who will fill my e-mail inbox with unreadable spam that uses character sets not installed on my computer? My, this would be a tragedy...
That is a very naive comment.
The last time the people of China "[grew] some balls" was at Tiananmen square. That sure worked out well for them. I think some people forget that not all of us live in a somewhat "free" society.
I think it's very ignorant to think that the people of China deserve a government that abuses their human rights. I think that it is even more ignorant to think that the people of China do not have any "balls" because they do not try to stand up for themselves more often.
When you stand up for your rights in China, you are eliminated, plain and simple.
It's one thing to say that if you were in their situation you'd stand up for your own rights; it's another to actually do it when you are there.
- crackdowns on religion
- harsh treatment of political dissent
- falun gong practitioners put in detention, sentenced to "reeducation-through-labor" camp, incarcerated in mental institutions or killed
- extrajudicial killings
- torture
- forced confessions
- arbitrary arrest and detention
- mistreatment of prisoners
- lengthy incommunicatdo detention
- denial of due process
- a judicial system that denies defendants basic legal safeguards
- restrictions on freedom of speech and the press
- restrictions on freedom assembyly and freedom of association
- restrictions on freedom of movement
- violence against women, including forced abortion and sterlization
- trafficking in women and children
- massive abuses in Tibey and Xinjiang
- a lack of worker rights
- forced labor in prison facilities
- child labor
The list goes on, and details are provided. Check out what goes on in the country that makes your shoes for such a good price.Actually, I can't say that it would be illegal in a "bar", but in a cybercafe environment, by law in MA at least, you're required to have internet filtering which blocks nudity and other "offensive" content. In a restricted, over 21 environment, perhaps this isn't such an issue, but in a mall or a place with any sort of store window, police complaints and actual orders to shut your business down can be handed out with very little discrimination. I know, I net-admined one for a year.
My friend and I recieved, on one occasion, a visit from the local police department, concerning that children had acceess to our machines and that our machines could be set to display objectionable content. The woman who had filed the complaint did not actually see objectionable content or had an experience where her child did, she merely voiced the possibility that it could happen.
Police seem to take this sort of stuff seriously. I'm not sure why it's any surprise that a government particularly against free speech would have a slightly more aggrevated reaction.
I think they've got the manpower.
"We're sorry, but the website you're trying to reach has been disconnected."
Just pick up this week's copy of U.S. News and World Report and you'll find an article in there about how the Internet should be creating global utopia through the free exchange of information. The author even specifically states that China doesn't fear the 'net because they screen things with "The Great Firewall of China". Well, we now see how well THAT'S worked.
I personally think global utopia is a pipe dream, no matter what the methods proposed to get there. People will always disagree on something, and extremists from those arguments will seek to have their ideas implemented by force.
What does the Internet represent to China? Free ideas that cannot be controlled by a communist central government. It must be noted that many Islamic countries practice similar "bans" in order to keep their people in the dark and allow corrupt regimes to keep on corrupting.
Those of you who supported the "Europe Bans Hate Speech" initiative last week should take a long look here and see just where your "ideas" would take you. Trying to control any one idea or thought is just as bad as trying to control any of them. Sure, you may think it's a good idea now, but what happens when they come for YOU?
In the end they will lay their freedom at our feet and say to us, Make us your slaves, but feed us. - Fyodor Dostoyevsky
27 million people in China are Internet users?
That's less than 5% of the population... Is that correct? Sounds like a higher percentage of people are logging on in Afghanistan with their Commodore 64s.
"It takes many nails to build a crib, but one screw to fill it."
The Chinese Communist Party is only "Communist" nominally... recently President Jiang Zemin infuriated some of the hardliners by allowing "capitalists" to join the party membership. If you look at his record, he's been known to be an opportunist. In fact, his entire record reflects this (read Tiannanmen Square Papers for more details).
The reason that the U.S. has begun to embrace China is precisely because they are no longer real communists, which translates to "exploitation" markets: think, corporations can make use of prison labor at a fraction of the cost of expensive U.S. workers.
All that's remaining of the original Maoism is an authoritarian government running a country by propaganda.
-k
yours,
kbs
When did the Taliban move to China?
In The Lexus and the Olive Tree, Thomas Friedman writes about the globalization of information. Globalization is a two-edged sword: it enables you to compete more effectively, which improves your economy and standard of living. But it also makes it harder to keep up walls and isolationist policies.
China realizes that they have to have Internet connectivity for its economy to grow and compete with the rest of the global market for products and services. In the long run, it's chasing after windmills with these restrictions. Once a critical mass of Internet users is reached, there will be less support for any administration that tries to enforce such rules.
It's just a matter of time.
Speak out against Chinese-style internet censorship by urging the 5 Media Companies to end their practice of censoring ads for Buy Nothing Day which adbusters.org has tried to purchase for the last several years. Each year, the Five turn down the paid ads from adbusters, citing that they do not run ads that advocate a cause. This is rubbish, considering that nearly all advertisement advocates the cause of mindless consumerism.
Buy Nothing Day is celebrated on the day after Thanksgiving, traditionally the busiest shopping day of the holiday season. The purpose of the campaign is to bring awareness to the problems of rampant consumerism that are magnified around the holidays. Why is it that we are encouraged to live beyond our means when consumer debt is at an all-time high, most people work more than 40 hours a week, and joblessness and homelessness are on the rise?
Ask yourself: Is capitalist censorship any better than communist censorship?
Really rotten. You say that 78% are open.
Of those, what percentage do you think are operating without blocking software?
By the way, when you said that "it is their country," I think you needed to be more specific. I think you meant to say "it is their regimes country."
Think about it.
And the reference to Marxism only shows how little you know about China.
Seriously, the most likely reason for this is that the bidnessmen running the cafes that were closed got too big for the level of government connections they have. Better-connected competitors may have happened to mention to officials that "gee, those guys let anything through." I would be surprised if you couldn't still get stuff from many of the 78,000 cafes still open.
Expanding a vast wasteland since 1996.
And to think Civilization 3 allowed me to make my Chinese Government a Democracy..
Taken from http://www.usembassy-china.org.cn/english/sandt/ne treg.htm :
Section Four -- No unit or individual may use the Internet to harm national security, disclose state secrets, harm the interests of the State, of society or of a group, the legal rights of citizens, or to take part in criminal activities.
Section Five -- No unit or individual may use the Internet to create, replicate, retrieve, or transmit the following kinds of information:
(1) Inciting to resist or breaking the Constitution or laws or the implementation of administrative regulations;
(2) Inciting to overthrow the government or the socialist system;
(3) Inciting division of the country, harming national unification;
(4) Inciting hatred or discrimination among nationalities or harming the unity of the nationalities;
(5) Making falsehoods or distorting the truth, spreading rumors, destroying the order of society;
(6) Promoting feudal superstitions, sexually suggestive material, gambling, violence, murder,
(7) Terrorism or inciting others to criminal activity; openly insulting other people or distorting the truth to slander people;
(8) Injuring the reputation of state organs;
(9) Other activities against the Constitution, laws or administrative regulations.
Section Six No unit or individual may engage in the following activities which harm the security of computer information networks:
(1) No-one may use computer networks or network resources without getting proper prior approval
(2) No-one may without prior permission may change network functions or to add or delete information
(3) No-one may without prior permission add to, delete, or alter
materials stored, processed or being transmitted through the network.
(4) No-one may deliberately create or transmit viruses.
(5) Other activities which harm the network are also prohibited.
Section Seven The freedom and privacy of network users is protected by law. No unit or individual may, in violation of these regulations, use the Internet to violate the freedom and privacy of network users.
If your trying to build a community that has to support the physical needs of 3 billion people - from each according to ability, to each according to need - you might also find the blatant and mind-numbing propaganda by capitalists via advertisers subversive. I find corporate news incredibly biased and leading... they certainly serve their corporate masters.
USofAmerica is a Plutocracy - I dont have to explain how their media re-enforces certain 'subversive' ideals... christ, imagine if the Communist news media was pushing its agenda into America... wouldnt Americans, via McCarthy inspired mass-hysteria, not be a little put-off? Would it too not be considered "subversive".
Remeber people, right and wrong is very much a matter of perspective.
You have no chance to survive make some chai
--
I like to watch.
Personally though, I think that China should have called the internet "online opium."
It helps with the imagery a little more... you know.
The funniest time was when I went with my wife to her hometown, in southern China. In a city of 100,000 people (which they call a village in China), I was the only non-Chinese person who had been there in over 2 years. People turned and stared at me wherever I went (my in-laws were joking that they should have charged admission to see me). Yet just down the street was a perfectly functional Internet cafe.
These things happen slowly, but they do happen. Don't think for a second that Chinese dissedents can't figure out how to use encrypted proxies or whatever, to get information in or out, just as easily as we western geeks do to get around stifling workplace rules...
:-)
This story illustrates a wider problem internationally, that of regimes which quell any sort of human rights and freedoms. US & Allies are currently engaged in a war in persuit of one man, accused of murder. The side affect of this (which is widely publicised in the Canadian press) is that Afghan citizens (especially women) are regaining many fundamental freedoms. However, liberating oppressed people was clearly not the intent of the war.
If one man is worth starting a war over, then isn't it also worthwhile to fight for people's freedom? Saudi-Arabia, China, Pakistan, and Indonesia are amongst the nations that the west does business with, and yet the oppress billions of people. Why can't we justify war with these countries, or even extreme trade embargoes, if only to ensure their people's freedom? How many barrels of oil or cheap shirts is a woman/man's freedom worth??
I'm not making an anti-US statement here. Canada, Britain, the EU, and australia, amongst others, are exactly the same.
-Michael Roy Some people are like Slinkies. Not really useful, but you can't help smiling when you see one tumble down
A number of Slashdot readers need a basic lesson in ethnocentrism and cultural relativism. Pick up an intro to anthropology book and read the sections that discuss these concepts.
GeneralKael -- Slacker Extraordinaire
Maybe that will slow the flow of spam nailing my servers.
.cn I don't know what else to do. Anyone have any suggestions?
It seems like the Chinese can't (or don't want to) figure out how to secure a mail server.
Are there any Chinese readers here that can explain this? Anytime I have spam problems originating within the U.S. I have about a 99% chance of getting a cooperative ISP that fixes the problem within a few hours but because of the communication barrier I have no luck pursuing this overseas (generally China).
Short of blocking all traffic from
The man who trades freedom for security does not deserve nor will he ever receive either. - Benjamin Franklin
From this story:
"Out of the 94,000 Internet bars in China, 17,488 have been shut down and another 28,000 were ordered to install monitoring software soon. Of the 27 million Internet users in China, about 4.5 million rely on these bars."
From a previous Slashdot story:
"Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.), a longtime proponent of censorware, introduced the amendment...Essentially it says that any school or library which receives federal funds to build its network must install censorware. Since these funds are the chief way that poor and middle-income areas bring the internet into public institutions, effectively this means that only rich counties will have the option of an uncensored internet."
I'm so glad that I don't live in China, where the government attempts to censor public internet access.
That The Register scooped /. OWNED SCRUBS.
Or are there strict restrictions on those behaviors too?
Most net people get their news from Jo-Blo's site. THAT IS WHERE THE BIAS COMES FROM.
Jo-Blo. Not the other things. Most of the bias that you see in journalism is cultural bias that occurs on all sides of the fence.
Hey, I know. We'll increase trade and improve relations with China by exporting Carnivore to the Chinese government.
http://quiz.ravenblack.net/blood.pl?3357354385
Okay, so we're just supposed to look out for freedom on the home front, eh? "Screw the rest of the world, I'm looking out for ME!" It's called isolationist, and it's largely to blame for two World Wars last century. Go pick up a history book, you might learn something.
Was 9/11 horrific? Of course. But what should we do about it? Well, the Taliban is pretty much gone, so that's thing number one. But in the long run, America's security has a lot to do with the rest of the world. If we don't stand up for freedom everywhere, we risk being the only place on Earth where it's practiced (albeit imperfectly).
Now, I'm not going to say "get over it" because you've already been told that. I'm going to say "do something about it". You gripe and moan about people's priorities, but I don't hear any solutions coming from you, or even a point other than you don't like people getting on with their lives. It is possible to carry on a normal life and not forget about a horrific event. We did it for about 4 years during WWII, and we still haven't forgotten Pearl Harbor. Let people deal with things their own way, and stop trying to make people conform to your idea of mourning.
In the end they will lay their freedom at our feet and say to us, Make us your slaves, but feed us. - Fyodor Dostoyevsky
Given current event, it's my understanding there are some countries that completely ban the internet. Am I wrong?
They've got as many Internet bars as we have Starbucks!
...by scrapping the Constitution and installing a Christian theocracy. John Ashcroft is already moving along with turning the FBI into a Christian Taliban.
--
The Antipop Superstar
Change for the better won't happen merely because time passes. Its easy to see how things are 'better' now than in the 'olden days' and beleive that progress is a constant. Its not. Change for the better requires constant sheparding through the actions of people.
I agree that it should concern every US citizen when the government plans to impinge on the rights of any US citizen, but my concerns can be allayed at times. Is a little more border control warranted? I think yes. Should student visa holders receive greater scrutiny than at present (currently zero)? Again, I'm okay with that. What China does is attempt to completely silence all contrary viewpoints, especially the free press. I'm much more concrened about that, than anything Ashcroft has dreamt up lately.
So long and thanks for all the fish . . . !!!
I'm an American, and you know, I never fail to be fascinated/frustrated at how vigorously other Americans attack China. Who said that our system is the best? And who are you to criticize another country for providing for its people in the best way they deem possible? It's not like the leaders are in it for the fun of it -- good god, they have to serve 1.2 billion people! Let me see you manage a country that large, by giving people all the same freedoms we enjoy here. We have enough trouble already, with only 1/5 the population... If you think about it, it's like people here have been programmed to hate China just because it's one of the few remaining "Communist" countries around. Do we really need another enemy? Why create one when China doesn't want to be an enemy? Never mind that their increasingly capitalist structure has given far more people over there opportunities than can be said about some of our population here. When you criticize China, are you doing so because you've really thought about the issues, or because that's all the media has told you to do here? Sometimes the freedom of thought is more quashed here than in less-priviliged, knowledge-embracing countries...
when are those shitbirds at the cult of the dead cow going to release peekabooty? that will be goddamn hilarious when those clowns in china get flooded with news and porn...or is that redundant? anywho, maybe that will spark a revolt that is successful.
Nothing naive about it. People can stand up for themselves or not. Unfortunately, the Chinese culture is extremely authoritarian. I should have said "learn to question authority" instead of "grow some balls" as there are undoubtedly some very brave Chinese citizens.
If the majority of the people decided to revolt the Red Army would be powerless to stop them.
The government wants to encourage the Internet's growth as a commercial medium. But Beijing fears its other use as a forum for political dissent.
Encourage growth? So they shut them down.
Fear dissent? Shut it down.
Uhhh, am I the only one who does not get the logic in this?
Perhaps it is just me, but, if they "fear dissent" maybe, just maybe, they should look at why people would dissent?
I dunno.
If it is not on fire, it is a software problem.
Why create one when China doesn't want to be an enemy?
I don't suppose you've read any of their national press, particularly after their fighter jet rammed a recon plane in international airspace. China has been regarding the US as THE ENEMY for quite sometime.
Never mind that their increasingly capitalist structure has given far more people over there opportunities than can be said about some of our population here.
Compare that to Taiwan, which started from worse circumstances and is ahead of the PRC about 10 to 1.
So long and thanks for all the fish . . . !!!
[wavy dream sequence effect]
Spam floods Chinese in-boxes: "A no-money-down real estate opportunity for YOU, comrade!" "Refinance your hut today!" and "OMG! ULL CUM! HOT PROLETARIAN AXXXION!"
American Internet porn companies begin to target this new market, making downloadable titles featuring the likeness of Chairman Mao Tse "Swollen" Tung.
This is too stupid to give a response. Oh, wait...
most Internet bars here are nothing more than dimly lit one-room shops with a dozen personal computers.
And this differs from most computer rooms how?
If it is not on fire, it is a software problem.
If you're going to sites that are not in Chinese, use the Babelfish translater as an impromptu proxy.
Just tell it to translate the page you want to see from Chinese to English (or such), and it will ignore all the non-Chinese characters on the screen. So you'll get the website.
People have been using that to bypass filters at work for quite a while.
-k.
And apparently you as well.
Generally the U.S. doesn't put a "prior restraint" on speech because it is prohibited by the Constitution, but there are some exceptions... take the Foreign Agents Registration Act (FARA) or U.S. v. Progressive, Inc. (467 F.Supp. 990, 992; 1979). All are usually justified by some "threat to national security", or obscenity, or incitement to riot...
The danger, of course, is that our current administration likes to call nearly everything a threat to national security... and now that we have an executive order allowing for military tribunals, fuck checks and balances anyway!
CNN may indeed be an outlet for information the Communist Party in China deems subversive. So why not let the Chinese people evaulate CNN's content for themselves? If they don't want to view content from CNN they can choose not to. Why does the Communist Party not trust their own people to make such choices for themselves?
And every Chinese govt official should be buggered with a 2x4 studded with nails.
Have a day.
Mk.
If subversive and/or pornographic web sites are banned in China, what exactly do they use the web for over there? I mean, what's left?
I was going to moderate, but really feel the need to say something about free speech.
Free Speech != the ability to say anything you want. It is the ability to express yourself in a way that does not infringe on the rights of others.
'Nuff said.
Andrew Borntreger
Champion of cinematic disasters
Okay, China shuts down internet bars that don't filter content that the totaltarian government doesn't want their people to see, why is anyone surprised? Isn't this part of what makes them totaltarians?
No, I don't like it, but really, we can't stop them. Governments govern at the consent of the governed, so it's the chinese people who have the options, not us.
Derek Greene
All you DMCA and privacy whiners, take note. It could be worse.
So this means that Chinese geeks can't read Slashdot. God forbid we actually discuss stuff, find out about stuff, learn stuff, and expose stuff. That might bring the world to its knees!
-Whoopass
How would you feel if your country had constant surveillance flights right along the international boundaries (which you don't agree with, btw - you feel they're further out).
I think you'd be just a tad testy if the Taliban was flying recon off Seattle, or the Soviets had planes growling around off Miami, these barely visible specks in the sky reminding you day in and day out - they're watching you.
Both sides provoked that spyplane incident. Don't be fooled.
Anyone know the feasability of satellite internet access in china? --- Sounds like there should be a hell of a market for it over there....
no wires to cut, no way to filter it.
The price of liberty is endless vigalence. Sure, I'm awake and screaming at the top of my lungs.
DMCA, Hollings, Palladium. What might have sounded like paranoia is now common sense.
Maybe if more Chinese heard about how disruptive spam was, they'd be more willing and able to do something about it. But with the Communist Party barring sources of information, that seems less likely to happen.
Smash the state! Hot Asian teens!
Then again, "Asian teens" probably isn't so interesting over there.
begins with chorus which is generally
..
.. - can I have the attention of your ass
ad libbed in each repetition to describe cmdrtaco.. ie fudgepacker, buttboy
etc.
hi - my name is what
hi - my name is who
hi - my name is, slim anus
hi - my name is who
hi - my name is what
hi - my name is the fudge packer
hi - my name is what
hi - my name is who - excuse me
hi - my name is nut licker
hi - my name is
hi - my name is
hi - my name is the butt sniffer
Hi kids, do you like anus? I let Homos feel up my butt for a chance to be famous
Wanna copy me and do exactly like I did, ?twice in? and get your butt pumped out like I did?
Homos said wait, I'm trying to get my head straight but I can't figger out which Backstreet Boy I wanna impregnate
And Micheal said "cmdrtaco, You a cutie,"
uhhuh, "I'll give you a deal lemme up in that booty", Okay!
?? ?? someone else, hung my original self
from the top bunk with a belt,
got pissed off, ripped Pamela Lee's tits
off, she dunno how to do Tommy Lee, I'd suck his dick off...
CHORUS
My english teacher wanted to flunk me in junior
high, I told him to take his pants off, ?come up and let me slide?
I pinched his ass, he winked at me, he chased
me round the desk, then I told him "Come and get me!"
Walked in a strip club, had my jacket zipped
up, flashed the bartender, then I tried to feel his dick up
Extraterrestrials, runnin over pedestrians,
in a space ship while they screamin at me "lezz just be friends!"
Ninety nine percent of my life I was lied
to, I just found out my ma screws more guys than I do...
I told her I grew up, being this rapper,
she met cowboineal I couldn't believe it when he slapped her
I know you blew up when the women rush the
stand, they try to touch your hands but "I need me a man!"
This guy in Whitecastle ask me for my autograph
so I signed it "Dear Dave, thanks for the support, nice ass"
CHORUS
Stop the tape, this kid needs to be locked
away, Dr Dre don't just stand there, operate!
????...?????... and stick your manhood between
my cheeks
am I coming or going, I can barely decide,
I just drank a pint of ?semen?, dare me to drive?
All my life I was very deprived, Homos' butt's
too sexy to hide, take your pants off Dre, I don't mind
My clothes ripped like the Incredible Hulk,
I spit when I talk, I do any guy that walks
When I was little I used to get so hungry
I would throw fits, sometimes I said "I wish Homos had a set of tits!"
"Keep me hurting cmdrtaco and grab me by my
hips", if I do that then I can't kiss you on your lips!
By the way have you seen my dad, ask him
if he seen my spread in Gayhouse porno mag!
CHORUS
(yer anus etc)
"You wanna diss us? We don't even know
you, you little bitch!"
You wanna sit there and diss us, you little bitch! I'll slap your face off!"
"You little biatch!"
Come get these juggalo painted balls, Bi@7CH!
Good god, not again.
Tianemmen was a joke, not a revolution. Imagine what the US would be like if everyone gave up and went home after the first 100 deaths in 1776. (Pause, as the British readers have a brief smile.) Or think who would control Europe if England and France had thought better of their agreement to assist Poland from Germany's invasion. China itself lost thousands of people even before then, when Japan invaded Manchuria.
But we are to care that a few Chinese students staged a protest, demanding their 'human rights' and quickly shut up when a few died. If they kept fighting, I would have sympathy and respect for them. But they quietly slinked away with their tail between their legs. Plenty of room for it since they had no more "balls".
And if you think it never happens in the US, look up Ruby Ridge. A FBI sniper shot a woman in the head because her husband didn't want the government to bother him. She was standing in a doorway, holding her baby in her arms, and he killed her because he had orders to shoot anything that moved. The sniper claims he wasn't aiming at her, but it is really hard to shoot someone in the head without aiming at it. It's not that easy when you _are_ aiming at it.
And lastly, the term "human rights" is a joke too. You only have the "rights" you earn. Read Heinlein's "Starship Troopers" sometime. The actual novel, not the movie adaptation. Has a real good handling of that term, better than I can do.
I have no firsthand experience or memory of the Cultural Revolution, but I am confident that it had little popular support or basis. Indeed, you might do a little probing and discover that 'revolution' was in fact perpetrated by the government itself.
Saying that event equates to the people's choice of government is tantamount to saying that Native Americans chose the system that they now live under.
And I'm not sure that *I* would assume that the average Chinese wants to live under the current system. That seems like a big stretch...
The old hard liners all died off in the 1990's and
have been replaced by younger hard liners. There
are plenty of "hard liners" in China in their 20's
and 30's (who tend to be nationalist hard-liners
rather than Marxist ones but who cares?).
So China has a supply of hard-liners that will last
it for a few decades to come.
So what do the good people of MA think of zippers?
Well, what do you expect from people who ran off to the wilderness of the new world for religious non conformance? You know, to re-enact the old testament at places like Salem, and so be God's new people?
And you don't see the similarity with the Talliban (translation: teachers)? Pilgrims/Talliban ran off to be with themselves and escape persecution by an evil empire (England/USSR). Against all expectations they find themselves in charge and wish to make the world after themselves. They are accused of intollerance and denying women their rights. No one but their neighbors mind untill they start blowing things up accross the Ocean (Spanish American wars, WWI, WWII, Korea, Vietnam, .../WTC). No, I'm not equating any real wars to the WTC attrocity, it's just a reference for comparison. US firbombing of German civilians durring WWII represents a real low in morrality, surpassed only by the crimes of her ally of the time, Stalin. This from the "city on a hill".
Posted by a genuine white anglo saxon US citizen. I'm proud of my country and want to stay that way. I'll happily jump up and down on hypocracy and dishonesty all day long. Flame away, bitches, and happy Thanksgiving.
DMCA, Hollings, Palladium. What might have sounded like paranoia is now common sense.
Anyone know which sites they wanted blocked?
Who are you to say that the US system of government would not work with a larger population, even one as large as China's?
Maybe they could split the country into 5 semi-autonomous democratic provinces, each about the population of the United States, with each province represented by a certain number of elected individuals in a body which would regulate a limited number of areas, such as foreign affairs, baseline freedoms and human rights, uniform currency, etc.
MOD UP PARENT! (+1, funny)
How many times in the past have governments tried to control what their citizens see, hear, and read?
It doesn't work. You just create a new industry of underground news and information. I'm sure given time this will come back to bite them on the butt. As some form of Human Rights violation or something else. But face it. When the gov't tries to control the media, it's because they're worried that you will figure out that your gov't sucks and demand change. The only thing this does is slow down the change, and in many times force a more violent change when it comes. (i.e. coup, revolution)
It's time that gov'ts start reading the writing on the wall instead of trying to cover it with paint.
Goran
Carpe Scrotum - The only way to deal with your competition.
If China is so great what are they afraid of if their prople read or see something.
Thanks for the response. I'm the one who started this thread.
Y'know if they're so damn repressive why is tourism in China so popular??? Why do people own their own businesses in China?
Get a clue people... the ones who get shot at there are the Chinese equivalent of Tim McVeigh - they're trying to use means to overthrow the government that are AGAINST the law - even in *this* country (the USA) the methods they use are against the law.
In Seattle, non-lethal weapons were used. Even in many third-world countries, protests are broken up with rubber bullets, not live ammunition. And if you complain that the students were radical, why not also point out that the gov't was hardline and refused to budge?
Now, I'm generally very defensive about China when Slashdotters rant about how evil it is without looking at the reality and practicality of the situation there, as it is making a lot of positive progress these days, but this is a case where the gov't could have done any number of things to avoid killing students, and it chose not to. Why? Not because it "had no choice", but because it too heavily weighs "stability of our nation" over individual lives. For that matter, even the "patience" may have been a bad thing, as a more controlled suppression of the protests earlier could have turned out a lot better.
"Modern USia has quite simply lost any semblance of morality and ideology other than the dollar and a kind of rabid Christianity." Considering the extreme steps the chinese government takes to prevent the growth of christianity in it's own country I don't see how this point relates to a softened american stance towards China as opposed to the Soviet Union.
I'd guess the sheer population advantage china has over both America and the old Soviet Union is as much a factor as anything else.
An issue that may not have been discussed two days ago during the discussion of Safeweb's demise/discontinuation is the effect on web-users in countries like China. Hey, it's nice for Americans esconsed in their offices to be able to access p0rn though the employer's firewall, I guess -- that's what the writers of quite a few of the comments seemed to think Safeweb was all about -- but the loss of Triangleboy must definitely be hurting web-users in countries like China and Saudi Arabia.
Ever been to The Netherlands BTW
Right! We need to fight with morality and scruples in mind, just like we did against communism throughout the Cold War! We need to "fight the good fight" like we did in Vietnam! We need to support the causes of the noble and the just like we did with the Afghan FREEDOM FIGHTERS!
I so totally agree that these days, we suffer from total lack of cause and purpose.. we just advocate free market capitalism. After all, what has capitalism ever gotten anyone?! . We need to target our nuclear missiles at the remaining Communist countries lest their Evil Ways take over the free and just Western world!!
The morality and ideology of the Cold War are values we should forever strive to regain! We must once again fight the good fight! (And if you don't agree, then you'll never work in Hollywood again!)
Bravo. This guy is 100% correct. People need to stop bitching, and start revolting - plain and simple. It's what the American revolutionaries did, and it's what the Chinese need to do. This blind following of authority is what is killing us all. It's allowing us to bend over and take way too much dick.
>sometimes you have to let other countries
>solve their own problems. It's called
>soveriegnty.
Yes, well the problem begins when those other countries begin to export their problems to other countries.
Socialism, as defined by it's creator, is supposed to be spread through the violent overthrow of other governments.
See, for example, china's conquest of Tibet, and their continual sabre-ratteling towards Taiwan. I beleive socialist forces were also on the verge of defeat in the Korean war, until china sent its owh troops in to prop up north korea.
cya,
john
Imagine all the people...
You're right, there are an infinite number of economic systems waiting to be explored. The one we're currently in is called "capitalism", and it's the most successful in history. Is it the pinnacle? Of course not, but it's the best we've come up with so far. Unless you've got a better idea that hasn't been tried in the last, oh, say, 3000 years, you really shouldn't be knocking it so much.
In the end they will lay their freedom at our feet and say to us, Make us your slaves, but feed us. - Fyodor Dostoyevsky
What does that have to do with anything?
In the end they will lay their freedom at our feet and say to us, Make us your slaves, but feed us. - Fyodor Dostoyevsky
Offer not valid in Cuba.
--
E_NOSIG
What do public libraries have to do with children?
Sure, public libraries are a place where there may be children present, but there may be children present in a courthouse, walking down the street, or in the corner convenience store. (Where, I'll note, the only thing between the kids and serious hard-core porn is the clear plastic wrapper on some of the magazines)
The idea that libraries are somehow fundamentally aimed at children, and specifically are more aimed at children than at adults is pernicious. It leads to a culture in which the adults become alliterate (that is, being able to read but not reading) and in which librarians are imagined to be glorified babysitters with books.
Well, the Soviets did have planes growling around Miami for many years. There were also regular Soviet intelligence flights along the Pacific coast. I'll give you that the Taliban never spied on Seattle. In fact, on more than one occasion Soviet recon craft made forced (as in by weather damage or engine trouble) landings at US military airbases. I witnessed one. We gassed them up, made basic repairs and allowed them to leave as soon as they asked. We never attempted to board their planes.
The blame for the spylane incident belongs on the Chinese military.
So long and thanks for all the fish . . . !!!
...at least get it right..
This is the truth about Slim Anus
Hi, my name is what?
My name is who?
My name is Slim Anus
Hi, my name is huh?
My name is what?
My name is the fudgepacker
Hi, my name is what?
My name is who? (Excuse me)
My name is the nutlicker
Hi, my name is what? (Can I have the attention of your ass?)
My name is who?
My name is the buttsniffer
Hi, kids do you like Anus?
I let Dr. Dre fill up my butt for one chance to be famous (Uh huh)
Wanna copy me and do exactly like I did (Yeah)
Try acid and get your butt pumped out like I did
My brains dead weight
I'm tryin to get my head straight
But I can't figure out
Which Backstreet Boy I wanna impregnate?
Dr. Dre said Slim Shady you a cutie (Uh huh)
I'll give you a deal let me up in that booty (OK!)
Well since age 12 I felt like I'm someone else
Cause I hung my original self from the top bunk with a belt (Yup)
Got pissed off and ripped Pamela Lee's tits off
She don't know how to do Tommy Lee
I'd suck his dick off
Hi, my anus who?
My anus what?
My anus it gets tapped dawg
Hi, my anus (Excuse me)
My anus
My anus every now and then gets plugged up
Hi, my anus (Can I have the attention of your ass?)
My anus
My anus is occasionally reamed out
Hi, my anus who?
My anus what?
My anus really needs to be filled up
My English teacher wanted to flunk me in junior high
I told him to take his pants off, hooked him up, he let me slide
I pinched his ass
He winked at me
He chased me around the desk
I told him come and get me
Walked in the strip club
Had my jacket zipped up
Flashed the bartender
And I tried to feel his dick up
Extra-terestrial runnin over pedestrians
In a space ship while they screamin at me
Let's just be friends!
99% of my life I was lied to
I just found out my Mom screws more guys than I do (Damn)
I told her I'd grow up to be a famous rapper
She met Violent J I couldn't believe it when he slapped her
You know you blew up when the women rush the stands
And try to touch your hands
But I need me a man
This guy at White Castle asked for my autograph (Dude can I get your
autograph?)
So I signed it Dear Dave, thanks for the support
Nice ass!
Hi, my name is huh?
My name is who? (Excuse me)
My name is (They call me the pore plugger)
Hi, my name is what?
My name is who?
My name is the inch itcher (Excuse me)
One of radio's wonder boys
They call me the butt itcher
Hi, my name is what?
My name is who?
My name is (I've been called Dre's butt boy)
Stop the tape this kid needs to be locked away (Get him)
Dr. Dre don't just stand there operate
Or feel up my balls and buttcheeks
Anal lube got my ass greasy for weeks
Stick your manhood between my cheeks (Yup)
Am I cumming or going
I can barely decide
I just drank a pint of semen
Dare me to drive? (Go ahead)
All my life I was very deprived
Dre's butt is too sexy to hide
Take your pants off Dre I don't mind
Clothes rip like the incredible Hulk
I spit when I talk
I'll do any guy that walks
When I was little I used to get so hungry I would throw fits
Sometimes I sit and wish Dr. Dre had a set of tits
Get behind me Shady and grab me by my hips
If I do that then I can't kiss you on your lips
By the way if you see my Dad
Ask him if he seen my spread in Gay Al's porno mag
Hi, my anus who?
My anus what?
My anus gets tapped up
Hi, my anus who?
My anus what?
My anus it's always getting plugged up
Hi, my anus who?
My anus what?
My anus occasionally reamed out
My anus it needs to be filled up
Your anus
Your anus
Your anus is always getting plugged
Your anus
Your anus
Your anus is always getting stuffed
You wanna diss us?
We don't even know you you little bitch
You wanna sit there and diss us?
You little bitch I'll slap your face off
That's what happens when you go up against the Psychopathic Phamily trick
You little bitch (Laughs)
Slim Anus!
Are you down with the clowns?
Nobody in the Communist party wanted the students slapped around, tortured and their leaders sent to jail for a few decades.... yeah right... it was all an accident.. it was the army's fault.. yeah.. thats it.. it's not our fault.. those damn radicals left us no choice.... we didn't mean it.. honest!
As for other countries tolerating a paralysis of important country infrastructures, you only need look as far as Europe. Anybody remember the farmer and trucker protests in France recently?
Trying to claim the Chinese government was an accidental party to the human rights atrocities of Tianamen Square is scandalous and a revision of history.
Do not spread "09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0" over the internet, thank you.
The Red Chinese dictatorship is built to serve the monarchy-like powers of the dictators. The physical needs come last: tens of millions of
you might also find the blatant and mind-numbing propaganda by capitalists via advertisers subversive.
A meaningless argument that serves only the interest of censorship. "Propaganda" is merely information that you find repugnant.
I find corporate news incredibly biased and leading... they certainly serve their corporate masters
However, so called "corporate" news under a free market is the most accountable form there is: if it doesn't serve anyone, then people don't watch unless they shape up their act. Won't find this in Red China, where it is illegal to have news that is not controlled by the dictators.
- from each according to ability, to each according to need
In mainland China? There, it is from each according to the dictator's greed, and to each according to the least amout necessary (or even less, as Mao's party engineered mass starvation there).
Uh, better look again. It's right there between the 13th and the 15th amendments.
>Of the 27 million Internet users in China, about
>4.5 million rely on these bars.
The rest are too busy sending us spam.
The ideal believed in by the vast majority of Communists is the Soviet/Chinese type.
The problem with the communist ideal is that it would require such a massive global shit in thinking, it is not workable.
Not only that, but it would require severe oppression in order to enforce this uniform conformity of thinking.
Communism is not workable on a contry only basis.
If it can't work in a small scale, it won't work anywhere. Can't you see the deception in the argument you make that "communism would be the best system only of other systems were obliterated"?
Thats why these bastardisations exist. The creators MEANT well
Which creators meant well?
COmmunism itself is a utopian, and worthy goal.
It is a dystopian unworthy goal...
If the people of china enjoyed the same rights as the US and other western DEMOCRACIES, they would be 100 times better of then under the rule of a marxist mystic butcher regime. To claim that the people of china by their nature or culture, cannot live as FREE individuals is total and complete nosense just look at Taiwan. A free country, where people live as free men and not as slaves to the goverment, with a standard of living thats far far superior to that any communist regime has or will ever produce. The communist regime of china WILL fall, mark my words. And the people of china will enjoy the selfevident truths that all men are born equal and with certin certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.
No hypocrisy there. The people who perpetrated the Trail of Tears are long dead. We cannot stop them, we cannot punish them, we cannot do anything. In contrast, the mainland Chinese imperialists who are engaging in aggression against Tibet are alive and well and involved: they can be stopped.
The dictatorship in Beijing is very different from our own government right now, but it is not that much different from what the US was in its backwards imperialist state 120 years ago.
Marxism it is, really. The ideas of Marx have so little to do with the real world and how people behave that when they get applied in the real world, you do end up with what you describe above. From Lenin to Mao to Castro to Pol Pot....
[ Reply to This | Parent ]
(8) Injuring the reputation of state organs;
So, is it legal to say that the organs that the State extracts from executed prisoners are the best organs money can buy?
__
Men with no respect for life must never be allowed to control the ultimate instruments of death.
GW Bu
I know all about Buy Nothing day. Its sociallly uninformed and irresponsible goals make me want to be even more on that day.
Ask yourself: Is capitalist censorship any better than communist censorship?.
Any censorship is bad. It is government that does censorship, however, and where there is capitalism the government tends to be a lot smaller and thus there is much less censorship.
If anarchy is so good, how come in the past 10,000 years of history it has never lasted nor succeeded? I'll tell you why: because a fractious society of individuals cannot stand against a more organized, united force of similar numbers. It is true, and cannot be denied.
Anarchy isn't the answer any more than Despotism is. Extreme forms of government DO NOT WORK, and it is childish to think they will just because you want it to be so. True longevity is derived from balance. Anarchy means no laws: if I can find a way to kill you, it's perfectly alright to do so, and vice versa. If I want to rape your wife and get away with it, I face no penalty if you cannot bring force to bear on me. Ditto for stealing your stuff. Despotism means no freedom: you live at the sufferance of the government, and you can be made to disappear without consequence if the government decides they don't like you anymore.
To date, the best possible form of government devised by man is the Representative Democracy. It is not perfect, and perfection is not possible anymore than it is possible to calculate infinity, but it has preserved more freedom longer than any other form of government in history. In the end, it will prevail regardless of national affiliate, because it is the only thing that balances personal freedoms with responsiblity for actions.
In the end they will lay their freedom at our feet and say to us, Make us your slaves, but feed us. - Fyodor Dostoyevsky
I always find it interesting how subjectively the Slashdot community reads the news. I've lived in China for most of the last three years doing manufacturing management, which has taken me to many a middle of nowhere china and big city alike. And it constantly amazes me the kinds of myths that float around regarding Internet use in China.
First, Internet cafés are ubiquitous, and yes most of them are dimly lit holes with 12 computers sharing one ISDN line, or sometimes a 56k modem. Generally there are no bathrooms, the dimly lit room is filled with cigarette smoke and the whole place is grimy as the bathroom of your local pub. I.e. typical China, outside Beijing/ Shanghai/ Guangzhou. There are of course nice internet cafés in the big cities, like the one in shanghai that proudly displayed the chair President Clinton once sat it to surf the web, but those places are the exception.
Now just like any industry, there's licensing involved and in a Chinese Internet Café that means registering with the Chinese Bureau of Post and Telecommunications. Part of the Café license is the understanding that you'll filter all unsuitable content, which mostly consists of pornography (highly illegal in any form), actual dissident sites (yes they do exist, our government happily cracks down on the same sort of thing here) and yes BIG name foreign media. By big name I mean NY times, CNN, BBC, Washington Post etc. Anything that's local, or my mother wouldn't think of as a news source- i.e. Slashdot, Guerrilla News Network or the Economist, are not filtered at all.
Of course being a big place with a lot of people, regulation of this sort of thing isn't ubiquitous, which means that it's not that difficult to find Cafés that don't filter CNN and what not. They're just officially banned. And of course all bets are off when one uses any sort of proxy. Now the unofficial level of restriction raises and lowers depending on current circumstances. For example when we "accidentally" bombed the Chinese embassy a couple of years ago, the restriction was quite high. Chinese people were pissed at foreigners and the restriction level went up. On the flip side, after the Sept. 11th attack, they had an unofficial moratorium on the restriction of foreign news, which got extended all the way through the APEC conference.
When we hear that the Chinese government cracked down on internet Café's allowing subversive content through, what it generally means is the Cafés were letting in pornography. Most Chinese couldn't give a damn about foreign news, and of the few that do, the number that have the ability to read English is quite small. On the other hand the number of people who would be looking at pornography is quite large.
On average I would even venture to say that the aggregate level of information freedom of PR China is equal to or even greater than that of the United States when one takes into the account the development of intellectual property law. The Chinese didn't even have a concept of property when they opened up 20 years ago, so they sure as heck don't have a concept of IP, something that we're still struggling with, today. Hence buying pirated anything- software, music, movies- is many times easier than buying the officially licensed thing.
None of this is to say that the Chinese aren't being oppressed with regards to their online freedoms; it's just that the oppressors aren't nearly as strict as our own news tells us.
There is similar concern here in Taiwan as on the Mainland about Internet cafes, which tend to be havens for teenage boys -- a fair number of them truants -- hanging out for hours surfing the net and playing network wargames with their friends.
The problem isn't so much surfing and games per se, but the fact that Internet cafes are often connected to other video game parlors, which feature gambling. In addition, many Internet cafes are actually Internet bars serving alcohol and cigarettes. Toss in truancy and Internet porn, and it adds up to a real concern amongst Taiwanese parents that Internet cafes are not a proper environment for teens. Recently, in fact, in an effort to address these concerns, the city of Taipei passed an ordinance restricting the hours during which teens are permitted to frequent cafes, mandating -- IIRC -- filters on all terminals, and forbidding any Internet cafes within a certain distance (200 meters?) of a school.
Or are you one of those guys who thinks that something is censored just because CNN chooses to report on it for 3 days instead of 17... regardless of how many other media outlets harp on the issue CNN "undercovers"?
Someone had a point: words like "consumerism" have no real sociological meaning.
Saw yer mama over there sucking off bums for spare change, that's what.
Speaking as someone who's lineage traces back to China (my parents are actually Taiwanese), I can say with confidence that the problem is the *government* not the people. My grandparents often speak of a willingness to consider reunification but only if the government of China were better. Thousands of Hong Kong natives left in the few years before it was returned to China; why? Just look at the leadership.
Actually, I believe that even if the U.S. didn't sometimes see China as a potential enemy, the Chinese government would continue to do the same. The hardliners in the government *need* a large power in order to maintain their monopoly on power.
Not to mention that the anti-China bias that's prevalent on Taiwan is rather well founded...
-k
yours,
kbs
Not me, but I will firmly claim that it is much better than China.
When you criticize China, are you doing so because you've really thought about the issues, or because that's all the media has told you to do here?
I criticize the Chinese government because they are fundamentally hostile to individual freedom, believe that the citizens exist to serve them, and have no reservations about abusing their people to maintain their power. Yes, I know you can list things the US government has done that are not good, but the magnitude of the abuses is not comparable. Even the fact that you can criticize the US in this forum is a testament to the freedom that you enjoy here that you would not in China.
How to solve most of our problems: 1.Lots of nuclear plants. 2.Cure aging.
When I was in China, the liberal media establishment was blocked off : NYTimes, Washpost, ABCnews, etc. You could get foxnews.com and drudgereport. Right wing nutism is fine in China. China is the perfect Republican Party society: you have the right to work for low wages and the elite make all the decisions. Most Republicans see China as the ideal that America should strive for.
So they could be said to be disruptive for a morally correct reason.
You seem to be greatly afraid of "disruptions". No, don't tell me -- cultural revolution, right? Well here's a thought. The cultural revolution could not have occured on the scale it did if it wasnt for the (in)famous groupthink with which the Chinese are still struggling. By avoiding criticism, suppressing discussion, punishing "incorrect" reasoning, the Chinese strong men are supporting this tendency. They are promoting tribalism and so endangering their society.
Frequently, when speaking with ethnic Chinese, I hear such phrases as "We chinese do/say X..", instead of "I think". In a recent NYtimes report on AIDS, the author of a popular internet diary was interviewed about his recommendations for govt. AIDS policy. He felt the need to preface his remarks with "Well, I am only an individual, so I'm not qualified to judge.." My question is, who the hell _does_ judge policy, if not human beings? It is this fear of being the nail which sticks out, this sense of doing what your neighbor does, which has turned china into a giant gasoline pool, waiting for a spark. In an open society, individuals may go crazy, but the culture as a whole remains sound. Instead, the authorities whom you are defending have chosen to live in a closed society. They always fear the smallest flame.
In the US, we did have violent demonstrations in Seattle, they were publicized, debated, and no revolution, no mass bloodshed. In china it's forbidden to even mention Tiananmen square, secret police prevent people from assembling there on anniversary dates, professors fear for their jobs if they bring it up. The justification is fear of "disruptions", but few dare to ask why such a small spark can set fire to a whole nation.
Instead of ritually defending the CCP, or "we chinese" as a nation, those who truly care about the health of society should attempt to promote freedom of speech, of criticism, of protest. Strive towards open government and an open culture. This will provide channels to dredge the lake, and chinese human beings (as opposed to "The Chinese") will finally be able to speak for themselves without fear of commiting "incorrect" criticism.
When in doubt, have a man come through a door with a gun in his hand.
>>> but when things worked I was only paying about $20 Chinese per hour (a couple of bucks USD) for decent speed Internet access.
:)
:), so things are probably cheaper there...But , I checked Internet bars in Beijing, and it's more expensive, but only to about 5RMB/hour(about 60 cents per hour). Seems to me you were ripped off big time because you are a foreigner. I know in some places they charge 10 times to a foreigner. You must be one of unlucky guys :))
OK, I 've just visited my hometown 3 months ago. Anyways, the internet cafe right next to my home charges 1 Chinese RMB for non-peak time, and 2 RMB for peak time.(Mind you that 2 RMB= 25 US Cents i.e. a quarter). And it's broadband access too! Of course, it seems they have only one account for broadband access for the whole 30 PCs in the cafe......they just use a router to form a LAN .
Well,Guranteed it's just a "small town" since it has only 500,000 people living there
I think it shows how much penetration internet already has in China. And mostly kids from age 8+ to young students in their 20s are busy surfing there, chatting on their version of ICQs, and playing games like Starcraft and Age of Empires. I don't really think there is much interest in foreign news sites, but there is a lot of interest in Porn sites:) But still games and Instant messenger chatting are the major draw for Internet Cafes. So the ban on foreign new sites, in my opinion , is much ado about nothing. Well, it seems that Chinese Govt. surely do fear the power of the net, don't they. They are so scared.
And I think Internet only reachs about 27M people there mainly because 1) 80% Chinese live in "real" villages, where Color TV is rather a luxury, and Computers are close to non-exist; So with that in mind, the 27M actually makes more than 10% of population in City; 2) As I state, only kids and young students frequent Internet Cafes; Older people doesn't have much interest in it. Their only use for internet are occasionaly emails, most likely for writting to a child who is overseas(like my parents)
Aren't we, the good ol' US of A, involved in censoring internet access in Public [tapayer-funded] Libraries?
Oh, and let's also abolish the death penalty and military tribunals before we go second-guess the Chinese.
Besides, it'll cut down on chinese hackers.
"Piter, too, is dead."
I'm not familiar with too many in the Metro NYC area, where I'd expect them to be more noticeable...
When are Chinese going to shut down their spammers! Crush them with tanks, or subject them to the death of a thousand cats!
One line blog. I hear that they're called Twitters now.
For those who have never read it, here's your chance. It's amazingly spot on, even though it was written almost 70 years ago:
In Praise Of Idleness
by Bertrand Russell
C. 1932
Like most of my generation, I was brought up on the saying: "Satan finds some mischief still for idle hands to do." Being a highly virtuous child, I believed all that I was told, and acquired a conscience which has kept me working hard down to the present moment. But although my conscience has controlled my actions, my opinions have undergone a revolution. I think that there is far too much work done in the world, that immense harm is caused by the belief that work is virtuous, and that what needs to be preached in modern industrial countries is quite different from what always has been preached. Everyone knows the story of the traveller in Naples who saw twelve beggars lying in the sun (it was before the days of Mussolini), and offered a lira to the laziest of them. Eleven of them jumped up to claim it, so he gave it to the twelfth. This traveller was on the right lines. But in countries which do not enjoy Mediterranean sunshine idleness is more difficult, and a great public propaganda will be required to inaugurate it. I hope that, after reading the following pages, the leaders of the Y.M.C.A. will start a campaign to induce good young men to do nothing. If so, I shall not have lived in vain.
Before advancing my own arguments for laziness, I must dispose of one which I cannot accept. Whenever a person who already has enough to live on proposes to engage in some everyday kind of job, such as schoolteaching or typing, he or she is told that such conduct takes the bread out of other people's mouths, and is therefore wicked. If this argument were valid, it would only be necessary for us all to be idle in order that we should all have our mouths full of bread. What people who say such things forget is that what a man earns he usually spends, and in spending he gives employment. As long as a man spends his income, he puts just as much bread into people's mouths in spending as he takes out of other people's mouths in earning. The real villain, from this point of view, is the man who saves. If he merely puts his savings in a stocking, like the proverbial French peasant, it is obvious that they do not give employment. If he invests his savings, the matter is less obvious, and different cases arise.
One of the commonest things to do with savings is to lend them to some Government. In view of the fact that the bulk of the public expenditure of most civilized Governments consists in payment for past wars or preparation for future wars, the man who lends his money to a Government is in the same position as the bad men in Shakespeare who hire murderers. The net result of the man's economical habits is to increase the armed forces of the State to which he lends his savings. Obviously it would be better if he spent the money, even if he spent it in drink or gambling.
But, I shall be told, the case is quite different when savings are invested in industrial enterprises. When such enterprises succeed, and produce something useful, this may be conceded. In these days, however, no one will deny that most enterprises fail. That means that a large amount of human labour, which might have been devoted to producing something that could be enjoyed, was expended on producing machines which, when produced, lay idle and did no good to anyone. The man who invests his savings in a concern that goes bankrupt is therefore injuring others as well as himself. If he spent his money, say, in giving parties for his friends, they (we may hope) would get pleasure, and so would all those upon whom he spent money, such as the butcher, the baker, and the bootlegger. But if he spends it (let us say) upon laying down rails for surface cars in some place where surface cars turn out to be not wanted, he has diverted a mass of labour into channels where it gives pleasure to no one. Nevertheless, when he becomes poor through the failure of his investment he will be regarded as a victim of undeserved misfortune, whereas the gay spendthrift, who has spent his money philanthropically, will be despised as a fool and a frivolous person.
All this is only preliminary. I want to say, in all seriousness, that a great deal of harm is being done in the modern world by belief in the virtuousness of work, and that the road to happiness and prosperity lies in an organized diminution of work.
First of all: what is work? Work is of two kinds: first, altering the position of matter at or near the earth's surface relatively to other such matter; second, telling other people to do so. The first kind is unpleasant and ill paid; the second is pleasant and highly paid. The second kind is capable of indefinite extension: there are not only those who give orders, but those who give advice as to what orders should be given. Usually two opposite kinds of advice are given simultaneously by two organized bodies of men; this is called politics. The skill required for this, kind of work is not knowledge of the subjects as to which advice is given, but knowledge of the art of persuasive speaking and writing, i.e. of advertising.
Throughout Europe, though not in America, there is a third class of men, more respected than either of the classes of workers. There are men who, through ownership of land, are able to make others pay for the privilege of being allowed to exist and to work. These landowners are idle, and I might therefore be expected to praise them. Unfortunately, their idleness is only rendered possible by the industry of others; indeed their desire for comfortable idleness is historically the source of the whole gospel of work. The last thing they have ever wished is that others should follow their example.
From the beginning of civilization until the Industrial Revolution, a man could, as a rule, produce by hard work little more than was required for the subsistence of himself and his family, although his wife worked at least as hard as he did,, and his children added their labour as soon as they were old enough to do so. The small surplus above bare necessaries was not left to those who produced it, but was appropriated by warriors and priests. In times of famine there was no surplus; the warriors and priests, however, still secured as much as at other times, with the result that many of the workers died of hunger. This system persisted in Russia until 1917 (since then, members of the Communists Party have succeeded to this privilege of the warriors and priests) and still persists in the East; in England, in spite of the Industrial Revolution, it remained in full force throughout the Napoleonic wars, and until a hundred years ago, when the new class of manufacturers acquired power. In America, the system came to an end with the Revolution, except in the South, where it persisted until the Civil War. A system which lasted so long and ended so recently has naturally left a profound impress upon men's thoughts and opinions. Much that we take for granted about the desirability of work is derived from this system, and, being preindustrial, is not adapted to the modern world. Modern technique has made it possible for leisure, within limits, to be not the prerogative of small privileged classes, but a right evenly distributed throughout the community. The morality of work is the morality of slaves, and the modern world has no need of slavery.
It is obvious that, in primitive communities, peasants, left to themselves, would not have parted with the slender surplus upon which the warriors and priests subsisted, but would have either produced less or consumed more. At first, sheer force compelled them to produce and part with the surplus. Gradually, however, it was found possible to induce many of them to accept an ethic according to which it was their duty to work hard, although part of their work went to support others in idleness. By this means the amount of compulsion required was lessened, and the expenses of government were diminished. To this day, 99 per cent of British wageearners would be genuinely shocked if it were proposed that the King should not have a larger income than a working man. The conception of duty, speaking historically, has been a means used by the holders of power to induce others to live for the interests of their masters rather than for their own. Of course the holders of power conceal this fact from themselves by managing to believe that their interests are identical with the larger interests of humanity. Sometimes this is true; Athenian slaveowners, for instance, employed part of their leisure in making a permanent contribution to civilization which would have been impossible under a just economic system. Leisure is essential to civilization, and in former times leisure for the few was only rendered possible by the labours of the many. But their labours were valuable, not because work is good, but because leisure is good. And with modern technique it would be possible to distribute leisure justly without injury to civilization.
Modern technique has made it possible to diminish enormously the amount of labour required to secure the necessaries of life for everyone. This was made obvious during the war. At that time, all the men in the armed forces, all the men and women engaged in the production of munitions, all the men and women engaged in spying, war propaganda, or Government offices connected with the war, were withdrawn from productive occupations. In spite of this, the general level of physical wellbeing among unskilled wageearners on the side of the Allies was higher than before or since. The significance of this fact was concealed by finance: borrowing made it appear as if the future was nourishing the present. But that, of course, would have been impossible; a man cannot eat a loaf of bread that does not yet exist. The war showed conclusively that, by the scientific organization of production, it is possible to keep modern populations in fair comfort on a small part of the working capacity of the modern world. If, at the end of the war, the scientific organization, which had been created in order to liberate men for fighting and munition work, had been preserved, and the hours of work had been cut down to four, all would have been well. Instead of that the old chaos was restored, those whose work was demanded were made to work long hours, and the rest were left to starve as unemployed. Why? because work is a duty, and a man should not receive wages in proportion to what he has produced, but in proportion to his virtue as exemplified by his industry.
This is the morality of the Slave State, applied in circumstances totally unlike those in which it arose. No wonder the result has been disastrous. Let us take an illustration. Suppose that, at a given moment, a certain number of people are engaged in the manufacture of pins. They make as many pins as the world needs, working (say) eight hours a day. Someone makes an invention by which the same number of men can make twice as many pins as before. But the world does not need twice as many pins: pins arc already so cheap that hardly any more will be bought at a lower price. In a sensible world., everybody concerned in the manufacture of pins would take to working four hours instead of eight, and everything else would go on as before. But in the actual world this would be thought demoralizing. The men still work eight hours, there are too many pins, some employers go bankrupt, and half the men previously concerned in making pins are thrown out of work. There is, in the end, just as much leisure as on the other plan, but half the men are totally idle while half are still overworked. In this way, it is insured that the unavoidable leisure shall cause misery all round instead of being a universal source of happiness. Can anything more insane be imagined?
The idea that the poor should have leisure has always been shocking to the rich. In England, in the early nineteenth century, fifteen hours was the ordinary day's work for a man; children sometimes did as much, and very commonly did twelve hours a day. When meddlesome busybodies suggested that perhaps these hours were rather long, they were told that work kept adults from drink and children from mischief. When I was a child, shortly after urban working men had acquired the vote, certain public holidays were established by law, to the great indignation of the upper classes. I remember hearing an old Duchess say: "What do the poor want with holidays? They ought to work." People nowadays are less frank, but the sentiment persists, and is the source of much of our economic confusion.
Let us, for a moment, consider the ethics of work frankly, without superstition. Every human being, of necessity, consumes, in the course of his life, a certain amount of the produce of human labour. Assuming, as we may, that labour is on the whole disagreeable, it is unjust that a man should consume more than he produces. Of course he may provide services rather than commodities, like a medical man, for example; but he should provide something in return for his board and lodging. To this extent, the duty of work must be admitted, but to this extent only.
I shall not dwell upon the fact that, in all modern societies outside the U.S.S.R., many people escape even this minimum of work, namely all those who inherit money and all those who marry money. I do not think the fact that these people are allowed to be idle is nearly so harmful as the fact that wageearners are expected to overwork or starve.
If the ordinary wageearner worked four hours a day, there would be enough for everybody, and no unemploymentassuming a certain very moderate amount of sensible organization. This idea shocks the welltodo, because they are convinced that the poor would not know how to use so much leisure. In America, men often work long hours even when they are already well off; such men, naturally, are indignant at the idea of leisure for wageearners, except as the grim punishment of unemployment; in fact, they dislike leisure even for their sons. Oddly enough, while they wish their sons to work so hard as to have no time to be civilized, they do not mind their wives and daughters having no work at all. The snobbish admiration of uselessness, which, in an aristocratic society, extends to both sexes, is, under a plutocracy, confined to women; this, however, does not make it any more in agreement with common sense.
The wise use of leisure, it must be conceded, is a product of civilization and education. A man who has worked long hours all his life will be bored if he becomes suddenly idle. But without a consider able amount of leisure a man is cut off from many of the best things. There is no longer any reason why the bulk of the population should suffer this deprivation; only a foolish asceticism, usually vicarious., makes us continue to insist on work in excessive quantities now that the need no longer exists.
In the new creed which controls the government of Russia, while there is much that is very different from the traditional teaching of the West, there are some things that are quite unchanged. The attitude of the governing classes, and especially of those who conduct educational propaganda, on the subject of the dignity of labour, is almost exactly that which the governing classes of the world have always preached to what were called the "honest poor." Industry, sobriety, willingness to work long hours for distant advantages, even submissiveness to authority, all these reappear; moreover authority still represents the will of the Ruler of the Universe, Who, however, is now called by a new name, Dialectical Materialism.
The victory of the proletariat in Russia has some points in common with the victory of the feminists in some other countries. For ages, men had conceded the superior saintliness of women, and had consoled women for their inferiority by maintaining that saintliness is more desirable than power. At last the feminists decided that they would have both, since the pioneers among them believed all that the men had told them about the desirability of virtue, but not what they had told them about the worthlessness of political power. A similar thing has happened in Russia as regards manual work. For ages, the rich and their sycophants have written in praise of "honest toil," have praised the simple life, have professed a religion which teaches that the poor are much more likely to go to heaven than the rich, and in general have tried to make manual workers believe that there is some special nobility about altering the position of matter in space, just as men tried to make women believe that they derived some special nobility from their sexual enslavement. In Russia, all this teaching about the excellence of manual work has been taken seriously, with the result that the manual worker is more honoured than anyone else. What are, in essence, revivalist appeals are made, but not for the old purposes: they are made to secure shock workers for special tasks. Manual work is the ideal which is held before the young, and is the basis of all ethical teaching.
For the present, possibly, this is all to the good. A large country, full of natural resources, awaits development, and has to be developed with very little use of credit. In these circumstances, hard work is necessary, and is likely to bring a great reward. But what will happen when the point has been reached where everybody could be comfortable without working long hours?
In the West, we have various ways of dealing with this problem. We have no attempt at economic justice, so that a large proportion of the total produce goes to a small minority of the population, many of whom do no work at all. Owing to the absence of any central control over production, we produce hosts of things that are not wanted, We keep a large percentage of the working population idle because we can dispense with their labour by making the others overwork. When all these methods prove inadequate, we have a war: we cause a number of people to manufacture high explosives, and a number of others to explode them, as if we were children who had just discovered fireworks. By a combination of all these devices we manage, though with difficulty, to keep alive the notion that a great deal of severe manual work must be the lot of the average man.
In Russia, owing to more economic justice and central control over production, the problem will have to be differently solved. The rational solution would be, as soon as the necessaries and elementary comforts can be provided for all, to reduce the hours of labour gradually, allowing a popular vote to decide, at each stage, whether more leisure or more goods were to be preferred. But, having taught the supreme virtue of hard work, it is difficult to see how the authorities can aim at a paradise in which there will be much leisure and little work. It seems more likely that they will find continually fresh schemes, by which present leisure is to be sacrificed to future productivity. I read recently of an ingenious plan put forward by Russian engineers, for making the White Sea and the northern coasts of Siberia warm, by putting a dam across the Kara Sea. An admirable project, but liable to postpone proletarian comfort for a generation, while the nobility of toil is being displayed amid the icefields and snowstorms of the Arctic Ocean. This sort of thing, if it happens, will be the result of regarding the virtue of hard work as an end in itself, rather than as a means to a state of affairs in which it is no longer needed.
The fact is that moving matter about, while a certain amount of it is necessary to our existence, is emphatically not one of the ends of human life. If it were, we should have to consider every navvy superior to Shakespeare. We have been misled in this matter by two causes. One is the necessity of keeping the poor contented, which has led the rich, for thousands of years, to preach the dignity of labour, while taking care themselves to remain undignified in this respect. The other is the new pleasure in mechanism, which makes us delight in the astonishingly clever changes that we can produce on the earth's surface. Neither of these motives makes any great appeal to the actual worker. If you ask him what he thinks the best part of his life, he is not likely to say: "I enjoy manual work because it makes me feel that I am fulfilling man's noblest task, and because I like to think how much man can transform his planet. It is true that my body demands periods of rest, which I have to fill in as best I may, but I am never so happy as when the morning comes and I can return to the toil from which my contentment springs." I have never heard working men say this sort of thing. They consider work, as it should be considered, a necessary means to a livelihood, and it is from their leisure hours that they derive whatever happiness they may enjoy.
It will be said that, while a little leisure is pleasant, men would not know how to fill their days if they had only four hours of work out of the twentyfour. In so far as this is true in the modern world, it is a condemnation of our civilization; it would not have been true at any earlier period. There was formerly a capacity for lightheartedness and play which has been to some extent inhibited by the cult of efficiency. The modern man thinks that everything ought to be done for the sake of something else, and never for its own sake. Seriousminded persons, for example, are continually condemning the habit of going to the cinema, and telling us that it leads the young into crime. But all the work that goes to producing a cinema is respectable, because it is work, and because it brings a money profit. The notion that the desirable activities are those that bring a profit has made everything topsyturvy. The butcher who provides you with meat and the baker who provides you with bread are praiseworthy, because they are making money; but when you enjoy the food they have provided, you are merely frivolous, unless you cat only to get strength for your work. Broadly speaking, it is held that getting money is good and spending money is bad. Seeing that they are two sides of one transaction, this is absurd; one might as well maintain that keys are good, but keyholes are bad. Whatever merit there may be in the production of goods must be entirely derivative from the advantage to be obtained by consuming them. The individual, in our society, works for profit; but the social purpose of his work lies in the consumption of what he produces. It is this divorce between the individual and the social purpose of production that makes it so difficult for men to think clearly in a world in which profitmaking is the incentive to industry. We think too much of
production, and too little of consumption. One result is that we attach too little importance to enjoyment and simple happiness, and that we do not judge production by the pleasure that it gives to the consumer.
When I suggest that working hours should be reduced to four, I am not meaning to imply that all the remaining time should necessarily be spent in pure frivolity. I mean that four hours' work a day should entitle a man to the necessities and elementary comforts of life, and that the rest of his time should be his to use as he might see fit. It is an essential part of any such social system that education should be carried further than it usually is at present, and should aim, in part, at providing tastes which would enable a man to use leisure intelligently. I am not thinking mainly of the sort of things that would be considered "highbrow." Peasant dances have died out except in remote rural areas, but the impulses which caused them to be cultivated must still exist in human nature. The pleasures of urban populations have become mainly passive: seeing cinemas, watching football matches, listening to the radio, and so on. This results from the fact that their active energies are fully taken up with work; if they had more leisure, they would again enjoy pleasures in which they took an active part. In the past, there was a small leisure class and a larger working class. The leisure class enjoyed advantages for which there was no basis in social justice; this necessarily made it oppressive, limited its sympathies, and caused it to invent theories by which to justify its privileges. These facts greatly diminished its excellence, but in spite of this drawback it contributed nearly the whole of what we call civilization. It cultivated the arts and discovered the sciences; it wrote the books, invented the philosophies, and refined social relations. Even the liberation of the oppressed has usually been inaugurated from above. Without the leisure class, mankind would never have emerged from barbarism.
The method of a hereditary leisure class without duties was, however, extraordinarily wasteful. None of the members of the class had been taught to be industrious, and the class as a whole was not exceptionally intelligent. The class might produce one Darwin, but against him had to be set tens of thousands of country gentlemen who never thought of anything more intelligent than foxhunting and punishing poachers. At present, the universities are supposed to provide, in a more systematic way, what the leisure class provided accidentally and as a byproduct. This is a great improvement, but it has certain drawbacks. University life is so different from life in the world at large that men who live in an academic milieu tend to be unaware of the preoccupations and problems of ordinary men and women; moreover their ways of expressing themselves are usually such as to rob their opinions of the influence that they ought to have upon the general public. Another disadvantage is that in universities studies are organized, and the man who thinks of some original line of research is likely to be discouraged. Academic institutions, therefore, useful as they are, are not adequate guardians of the interests of civilization in a world where everyone outside their walls is too busy for unutilitarian pursuits.
In a world where no one is compelled to work more than four hours a day, every person possessed of scientific curiosity will be able to indulge it, and every painter will be able to paint without starving, however excellent his pictures may be. Young writers will not be obliged to draw attention to themselves by sensational potboilers, with a view to acquiring the economic independence needed for monumental works, for which, when the time at last comes, they will have lost the taste and the capacity. Men who, in their professional work, have become interested in some phase of economics or government, will be able to develop their ideas without the academic detachment that makes the work of university economists often seem lacking in reality. Medical men will have time to learn about the progress of medicine, teachers will not be exasperatedly struggling to teach by routine methods things which they learnt in their youth, which may, in the interval, have been proved to be untrue.
Above all, there will be happiness and joy of life, instead of frayed nerves, weariness, and dyspepsia. The work exacted will be enough to make leisure delightful, but not enough to produce exhaustion. Since men will not be tired in their spare time, they will not demand only such amusements as are passive and vapid. At least 1 per cent will probably devote the time not spent in professional work to pursuits of some public importance, and, since they will not depend upon these pursuits for their livelihood, their originality will be unhampered, and there will be no need to conform to the standards set by elderly pundits. But it is not only in these exceptional cases that the advantages of leisure will appear. Ordinary men and women, having the opportunity of a happy life, will become more kindly and less persecuting and less inclined to view others with suspicion. The taste for war will die out, partly for this reason, and partly because it will involve long and severe work for all. Good nature is, of all moral qualities, the one that the world needs most, and good nature is the result of ease and security, not of a life of arduous struggle. Modern methods of production have given us the possibility of ease and security for all; we have chosen, instead, to have overwork for some and starvation for the others. Hitherto we have continued to be as energetic as we were before there were machines; in this we have been foolish, but there is no reason to go on being foolish for ever.
What about a great fire-wall of Bush? A system to stop G.W.Bush from having access to any government/millitary secrets including nuclear launch codes. Also to stop him accessing politically sensitive sites like EasyDictatorships.com that might give him ideas. Or even 'The Limits to Freedom in Six Easy Steps' Guide going around usenet. I for one would feel much safer knowing that a little child such as Bush didn't have access to things that he could use to hurt himself, or even worse, others.
..... MASS REAL-LIFE DEATHMATCH!!!!!! (last one to the gun shop gets fragged first!!!) now that _would_ be fun.
My solution to world problems:
This comment does not represent the views or opinions of the user.
Are our principles now to be sacrificed because we want cheap Chinese products?
Actually, our principles are to be sacrificed because we want to sell stuff to the Chinese... There is an untapped market of >1 billion people who don't have enough Nike, Coke, or McDonalds. It's enough to make a marketdroid salivate like one of Pavlov's dogs...
*** Where are we going? And what's with this handbasket?
....The american invention called filters that are supposed to "protect" children and the likes from watching nono sites.
In the US of A, someone would just have to call a site terrorpromoting to have the ISPs ban it.
Blah China, USA the same thing is being used allover, just in different ways.
...meanwhile terrorists communicate with encrypted Zip disks.
Foreign news organizations fall under the category of 'subversive'.
Western news outlets are the leading vector for the democracy virus! China is showing an excellent grasp of reality in blocking those sites.
(8) Injuring the reputation of state organs;
Off with Lewinsky's head, if she were in China. She injured the reputation of Clinton's organ alright.
mogorific carpentry experiments
(FYI: nothing "right wing nut" about Fox News: it provides a more centrist balance to the left-wing views seen on CNN and MSNBC. Drudge? He hated Clinton. now hates Bush. not on either wing._
(It's known the most as Northern Ireland, but this is a misleading term: the area is part of the island called Ireland, but it is not part of the country at all).
"Propaganda" is a meaningless word. The foreign news agencies are enemies of Beijing since they express views that Beijing dislikes.
I read anti-US policy editorials and views and opinion in US papers all the time. The situation you claim does not exist. I just read an issue of a US paper where most of the articles were outright pro-Taliban.
But the greeds don't cancel out!
They combine & say "no soup for you!"
It's marketing crap. "Lose weight fast!", "Buy printer ink!", "Make a million dollars sitting on your butt being a worthless bum!"
The man who trades freedom for security does not deserve nor will he ever receive either. - Benjamin Franklin
It's almost impossible.
Is there any way to do a reverse trace against an 800 number?
The man who trades freedom for security does not deserve nor will he ever receive either. - Benjamin Franklin
you have a good point RE: lack of freedoms in china, though IMHO it doesn't sound like you have much out-of-USA experience.
lots of US citizens, myself among them, choose to live abroad. for many of us, this is because there are places with much more reasonable and rational concepts of human rights, democracy, personal liberty, etc.
granted, people who choose to live in the PRC probably do so for other reasons. but don't forget: the US is a two-party system that forces out true democratic representation for a lot of people (arguably the majority). it's the most prison- and execution-happy state in the "first world." we may not have an official "identity card" but neither do we have any legal guarantees concerning our personal information (eg Datenschutzgesetz in Germany).
...and then we could talk about quality of life for the less-than-rich, or about health care, or a bunch of other things.
point is: while most intelligent people would agree with you on principle about totalitarian vs. democratic societies, among the democratic societies you shouldn't assume the US is tops in anything other than military/economic/pop-cultural power.
and yes, i love home, and when there's an independent republic of northern california i might even move back.
I just found my new sig!! Thankyou! =)
"move into the mountains of Colorado without running water or electricity and carry a shotgun... you'll get PLENTY of privacy. "
Until the FBI wants to arrest you for being alone, and then shoots your spouse in the head.
If you have no idea what I am talking about, do a search for Ruby Ridge, and see what our precious government does to people who don't like it.
A communist nation squelching personal freedoms?
Whodathunkit!
I actually *admitted* it was a troll:
:-)
> What's even more unbelievable is, no matter how many times I post this to Slashdot (probably a hundred times since September 11th), and no matter how obvious a troll I make it, it still hooks several morons who feel the need to tell me to "get over it".
And yet you and others took the bait hook, line, and sinker. Yes, you are the "moron" I was referring to.
As someone who has lived in Shanghai for over 6 years, and has run an Internet Cafe here, I'd like to say you're all talking complete sh*t.
The reason why the cafes were closed is because 99% of the people inside are not on the internet, but playing halflife/ c&c/ starcraft for 10 - 15 hours a day.
Fact: Kids are skipping school to play games.
Fact: Parents want the government to do something.
The government licences internet cafes - mainly to stop truancy. People really don't give a shit about [insert your favorite english language news site here]. Its in a foreign language.
Not everyone speaks or reads english. Stop and think about that for a while.
There are plenty of Chinese language sites with news, from HK, Taiwan, and the Mainland that run exactly the same stories, in the local language. Its the US'ians that don't get it, not the Chinese.
Lawrence.
http://www.shanghaiguide.com
Yes, they're just students, who represent a minority of the population. Just because they don't like the government doesn't mean they're right. Another thing, do you support the bombings in Afghanistan? Well, UC Berkley doesn't, and they were able to get their local government to draft a resolution calling for the end of the bombings. This embaressed the neighboring and state government to no end. And guess what? By your logic, those students are absolutely correct! To bad the rest of the population sees it differently.
I'm totally against most things the US government considers "acceptable foreign policy", but I'm sorry - just because China "wants to be friends" doesn't mean we should overlook the fact that the current political system (which isn't even *close* to being "Communist") SUCKS! The leaders of _both_ the United States and the People's Republic of China are morally bankrupt, power hungry sleazebags who are perfectly happy to play at sword-waving politics one minute, and have trade talks the next. In both cases, the People are getting screwed, and in both cases the government claims to be acting for the People when in fact they are only working for themselves and the rest of a small, wealthy elite. So no, "China" shouldn't be our (ie. the citizens of the "democratic" West) enemy, but the current Chinese government sure ought to be.
Freedom: "I won't!"
Errr care to explain how Singapore is a freedom hating regime? :\
You don't think there are millions of Chinese just dying to move to Hong Kong? There are! The problem is the government won't let them, and Taiwan doesn't want them either.
I've been working in Beijing for approaching a year, so here are my two cents. The foreign media sites which are blocked (in my experience) tend to be only the most prominent (and/or incriminating), ie: CNN, BBC, Amnesty International, Free Tibet, etc.. re: news (as with 9-11), anyone can locate the same information with minimum effort via different sites, provided they're interested and possess basic English reading skills (sizeable percentage in urban areas since learning our language is mandatory in high school) for a search engine.
It should also be noted that it's the local, average-income population who are unable to access these sites. Any 'diplomatic' or higher end housing development tends to have full access to the internet and television, since obviously it's tenants will be well off (ie: their salary is usd versus the yuan), and we can assume, quite comfortable with life in China.
Please, and I do mean it, do a google search for "Taiping Rebellion". Truly murderous Christians. No wonder the Chinese are suspicious of foreign religions.
I was new to the internet (1996) and I had just figured out the chatroom thing and I was looking around in the international areas. I spoke to a man in China who had illegally bypassed the filter in a library. It wasn't being tapped or blocked.
When I asked what would happen if he was caught he said he might be killed, or "go missing" like a few people he knew had, from doing similar things.
I would say that's restrictive on your rights as a human being. To be killed for seeking information not authorised.
It was the first time I realised other countries put restrictions on the internet. It made me grieve for the people of China.
But now all the countries seem to be following China, and I grieve for all of us.
What happens to an ISP in the US if it refuses to go along with Carnivore? Wouldn't it get shut down at some point?
Is it really so different?
Maybe the Chinese are using their monitoring software to find people non-violently opposed to the government, whereas the US is using the monitoring software to find people who are violently opposed to the government.
In any case it's not as different as people are making it sound.
Bullshit. What the US will experience in this "global utopia" is what the major corporations will decide for you. If not, they'll just have Congress pass a new law because it could save the economy.
During the recent summit meetings in Shanghai, the Chinese government un-blocked most Western news sites, including CNN. Then, following the end of the meetings, they blocked them right back up again. The New York Times, however, was un-blocked this Summer and remains accessible. (I know all this for sure.)
Um, because Taiwan is about 3% the landmass of mainland China?
That is a load of shit. They haven't revolted because they actually believe their government might actually do some good. You wouldn't know it because you have no idea what it's like there, just some shit you're lead to believe by your own biased media. About the balls part, allow me to inform you that they were successful in overthrowing the Mongol Dynasty, which was followed by the well-know Ming Dynasty. The point here is, if they want to overthrow their government, they will, it's only a matter of desire. It's not about the stereotypical view of following authority. That's just your biased media telling you it is.
If the majority of the people decided to revolt the Red Army would be powerless to stop them.
The Red Army is likely to join them (during the Russian Revolution of 1917, the Czar's army split into two camps, the white army composed of loyalists, and the red army composed of soldiers sympathetic to the plight of their people). How do I know? Because the Chinese Red Army is composed of normal people, who are sons/daughters/brothers/sisters/etc. to every other citizen in China. They truly believe they're defending their people and their country, just like our military. Just because some notable generals espouse certain opinions about freedom and such doesn't mean all do. Heck, some of our generals do the same thing, it's just that they don't receive as much attention.
You obviously don't know what you're talking about. During WWII, every American had to cut down on some comsumption (tin, meat, etc.) to support the war effort. Those materials were actually used to support soldiers, build machinery used in war, etc. Women were actually hired to do "mans work" because so many men were shipped abroad. People were encouraged to invest in War Bonds (rather than spend as they would have). There were many other activities related to this, but I don't have all day to list them. In the end, very few people lived their lives as they did before the war, unless they were filthy rich.
Wouldn't it be nice to hear "China forces ISP's to close 28,800 open SMTP ports."?
Often in Error, Never in Doubt.
china's censorship is not so strict as all you imagine,at home via a adsl connection of China telecom,i also can access to many porn sites and msn,abcnews,cnn,msnbc etc(only cant access cnn,i dont know why),even some politics forums.of c's slashdot is my favarite :)
i think internet bar is a public place and of c's it will be managed more strictly.
the local news of my city also declaim that students will not be allowed play counter strike in internet bar,and if you plays at home,no one care about you
It's a little more than difficult to keep 1.3 Billion people in the dark. As an American living in China, I must say I am impressed with the resourcefulness of the Chinese people. The use of proxy servers to get around the filter is rampant. The main problem is bandwidth. The filtering and the tiny connection to the rest of the world keep things so slow, I can't even reach unblocked sites most of the time. By the way, Slashdot is not blocked, yet...
this is all the more reason the US gov should be *promoting* encryption. unlikely that the chinese government will be able to filter by keyword when the content is properly encrypted.
Aiaiai! Less support among the users for the administration? What?! I China democratic or something? There is very little popular support for the administration in China - they have ways of dealing with people who voice their lack of support, so a majority not liking the admin will not change it.
I'm skeptical of letting freedom take over China through giving them money, as is the general US opinion. USSR failed out of poverty, and not some crazy idea of an adminstration falling because of a lack of support from the masses.
Janimal
So does the Japanese, Korean, etc. Why aren't you critising them as well?
Uh..maybe because this topic is about censorship in China?
Also, you seem to have missed the point of my post. I advocated for the acceptance of criticism. You respond with
1. obscenities
2. pointing out the faults of the japanese/koreans
3. blaming me for not being critical of the japanese/koreans
4. repeat 2-3 for the US,
5. lots of shouting that you are pissed off
Obviously your blood is boiling at the slightest suggestion of criticism of China. I hope that you're not an official with some power, but even if you are not -- you are the problem. It's people like that which were waving their little red books in the sixities, ready to shout down anyone who was an enemy of the state. If you don't realize that, then you don't understand the first thing about McCarthyism. You're infected, buddy.
Now, about the personal attacks. I've posted almost 80 comments. All but the last few have been critical of the US and it's allies. Hell, I give money every month to z magazine which is a portal containing loads of articles which protest and criticize US govt. actions. That's my main job. Since I live in the US, my primary responsibility is to try to stir opposition to US abuses. Read my other posts if you don't believe me. I haven't "conveniently" neglected anything. The difference between me and you, is that when someone suggests that my govt is doing something wrong, I look for the facts, find out what the problem is (to the best of my abilities) and then thank them for letting me know. I put the stuff on the web, tell my friends, and organize to try to draw attention to the problem. I volunteer my time to maintain websites which protest US foreign policy. 90% of my interests have nothing to do with China or Japan.
On the other hand, when you hear criticism of China you 1. get defensive
2. blame the foreign news media
3. blame me for bringing it up.
3. don't investigate
4. draw attention to what other countries are doing.
You are like those people who shout "America love it or leave it." You don't want to live in an open society. You claim that my criticisms are somehow helping hard-liners, but your actions (1-4) above tell me that you are as much of a hard-liner as anyone else. You ask me how do I know that you are not working to promote freedom of speech and protest? Well, just look at your own post. If this is how you react when someone protests your govt.'s policy, then you are certainly not respecting their rights do so. Or perhaps only ethnic chinese are allowed to do that? If that's what you think, then you're pretty far down on the evolutionary ladder. And no, please don't generalize my comments to mean "all chinese" when I'm referring to you -- that sort of groupthink is why I posted in the first place.
You cannot take criticism. You are the problem.
When in doubt, have a man come through a door with a gun in his hand.
We don't want to become China. If we just sit around and let all that shit happen, it will be worse.
Remember, in Nazi Germany the censorship started out small.
"I don't care about the Constitution!" --Bill O'Reilly, November 17, 2009