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Abiword's PayPal Donation Fund Robbed
SabberFlapper writes "According to this Announcement to the developer list of Abiword the Abiword fund was robbed. Dom Lachowicz writes: 'I'm duty bound to let you all know that the AbiWord Fund/Tip Jar has
been robbed approximately three weeks ago. I'm telling you this now,
rather than sooner, since I believed that Paypal would do something
about my complaints during the interim, and that this would all be
resolved quietly. Today, 23 days later, this does not look like it will
happen. [..]
I do however, recommend doing several things:
1) Writing to Paypal, in letter, email, or fax form alerting them to
this travesty.
2) Calling Paypal on AbiWord's behalf.
3) Writing or calling your Congressman/woman, pointing out that Paypal
is acting like a bank, but not operating under formal banking laws.
4) Boycotting Paypal because of these reasons, and the fact that their
system is notoriously insecure, and encouraging others to do the same.'" Of all the groups to steal from -- AbiWord?
That's why I hide all of my money in a mattress.
Can somebody explain how this theft occurred. It's not clear to me from the post.
Do your research. I never donate if it's a paypal tip jar because of things like this and this. Paypal based donations are a disaster waiting to happen.
But someone stole my copy of AbiWord.
PayPal Sucks crap. Ebay + PayPal = Huge pile of crap! I wish it were not so. G
They actually tried to tell me that I couldn't accept a payment without bank details a couple of days ago. When I pressed the only button that didn't cancel the payment I was *then* given the option to accept without adding bank details.
PayPal is like the stock market -- don't put anything in that you can't afford to lose.
is that any business which faces any regulatory liability would not stand by their customers, esp. under a threat of letter writing campagns to congressmen who have the potential to do some real damage via congressional inquiries....
LedgerSMB: Open source Accounting/ERP
I know this is complete flame material but...
If we all know pay pal has a very bad rep for dealing with things like this... Why does anyone still use it?
The old line of fool me once shame on you.. Fool me twice shame on me comes to mind.
For my part, I will personally write Paypal and tell them that I no longer feel that their service is secure enough for me and that their treatment of victims robbed through their service is rotten.
The question is, what other services are there in Internet space that does the same thing they do? Any banks trying to offer secure payment over the Internet?
Reminder: find a new sig
Not a tremendous amount, but certainly a majority of the ~$800 they had at the time. Hopefully the publicity of this slashdot article will help them get the money back, either by putting pressure on PayPal or soliciting additional donations (NOT through PayPal, I would hope).
Frankly, I suspended my PayPal account months ago. This episode just confirms my doubts about their service. It's like your bank gets robbed and tells you sorry, your account is zero now... I think everyone who owns a Paypal account should write and eventually cancel their own account. It happened to Abiword but it could happen, and i -bet- it's happening, to anyone. They just targeted a substantial account, this time.. Ofcoures it's internet, its point and click, its insecure, bla bla bla but it's real money. People has to realize it's real money. It shouldnt make a difference if they rob my PayPal account or if they rob my house, but alas, it does. Internet has reached a critical mass of people years ago, but still when you do business there you feel like you are not in 21th century, but back in the far west...
I had a paypal account. As soon as I saw the site http://www.paypalwarning.com I deleted it. This was out of simple self preservation, everyone gets bad press, but that much, and to that degree?? I have shown everyone I know that uses paypal that site - I feel duty bound to do so. Veteran Netizens certainly have seen or heard of this site, yet AbiWord decided to use it as their merchant account. Well, you knew the risks didn't you...
Yes, it sucks. It is pretty terrible that donations where robbed. But common sence could have avoided it. You call for a boycott now - well hundreds have been saying this for some time and it was ignored... People have been attempting to get PayPal to have to live up to the same standards of a bank for a long time now. I am sure it is a shock when it is you that gets ripped off but it shouldn't shock you that much that PayPal is being less than helpful.
NR
Paypal scam screen cap.
Good for him!
If it was Apple's PayPal donations everyone around here would be happy... or mad, it seems random around here.
Oh, wait, no one here reads Joy of Tech
Centralization breaks the internet.
Dom Lachowicz writes: 'I'm duty bound to let you all know that the AbiWord Fund/Tip Jar has been robbed approximately three weeks ago. I'm telling you this now, rather than sooner, since I believed that Paypal would do something about my complaints during the interim, and that this would all be resolved quietly.
Let's see a show of hands: who here is pleased that AbiWord decided to keep this quiet from those generous enough to help them out just so they could cover PayPal's ass?
Hey, Lachowicz, you were duty bound to report this to US, the people giving you money immediately!
In related news, the recent surge of in-depth bookkeeping oversight measures enacted in light of rampant corporate malfeasance has turned up a $600 credit on the Microsoft Office team's balance sheet that they can not account for.
I hate to jump to "lawsuit!", but this is an instance where a sternly-worded letter from a lawyer might at the very least get their attention. Unfortunately, you'll end up spending more than the stolen funds to pay said lawyer.
Any lawyers out there willing to help out AbiWord pro bono?
Makes sense: PayPal is owned by eBay.
They are equally pathetic when it comes to dealing with fraud - it's not in their business interest to do so.
Hopefully one day government will have the balls to do something about this.
PayPal should be renamed to PayGuyWhoSaysHeWillHoldYourMoneyButWillUseItForDru gsInsteadOrGiveItAwayToRandomPeopleBecauseTheyDont CareIfItsReallyYouOrNot.
paypal doesn't really care.. neither does ebay.. just look at all the auction fraud going on...
I, for one, cannot understand how paypal is allowed to get away with all this. People even suggested that things might change once eBay took them over, but apparently that hasn't happened yet. What a shame, I remember when PayPal was actually quite a helpful service. Now it just appears to be too much trouble, especially if something goes wrong.
---
"Of course, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong." --Dennis Miller
This truly sucks. As a maintainer of a few open source packages myself, who currently is using PayPal to keep the project websites, cvs, et al. bandwidth paid for, I'm at a loss to find any alternatives. Anyone else?
Due to the lack of details given about the fund being 'robbed', I'm going to guess that the password was compromised, as opposed to some sort of hack on paypal's servers. So... isn't it this guy's fault (at least as opposed to paypal's)? Paypal didn't do anything wrong.. sure maybe they could be a bit more helpful in trying to track down who did it, but they certainly aren't obligated to do so.
Isn't there an address that the camera seller has? If this is inter-state fraud doesn't that bring the FBI into the picture? Why rely on PayPal to give you justice?
Now of course, PayPal SHOULD have to be a bank to do what they do and should be responsible for the money entrusted to them that they allowed to be stolen, but just because they aren't I don't see how that is the end of it.
Don't moderate flamebait as Troll. Know the difference or you will be Meta-moderated.
One has to wonder if the Abi folks knew about PayPal's failings ahead of time. If so, then had they looked into other ways of obtaining donations? That is to say, if the Abi folks are saying "Look, we knew that PayPal sucked and was insecure, but we used them anyway, so please write them to tell them how much they suck" then it's a little harder to take their complaint seriously.
I've used PayPal for auction stuff. I was fortunate enough to get payments mostly through PayPal from a large USENET auction I held a while ago. But once that big chuck of money was in there (we're talking less than $1k) I had them cut me a check and send it to me so I could put the money somewhere I trusted...a real bank! Even now, I never keep more in the account than I could bear to lose, should something go wrong.
That the Abi folks weren't taking better care of their money hardly seems like PayPal's fault. Many people know PayPal has been difficult to deal with...it's no big secret and it's even been talked about on
I don't want to defend PayPal too much here. They're clearly sleazy sometimes (if not all the time). But that doesn't absolve the Abi folks from being more careful with their benefactors' cash.
Curmudgeon Gamer: Not happy
I remember viewing the eBay purchase of PayPal with some trepidation. Thinking, this just can't be in my (the consumer's) best interest. And while I'm sure there were problems before, the sort of heightened injustice in the light of a move that was supposed to benefit the defacto public online auction place, just fries me.
So, what are my choices (that's what we love to jump up and down about having)? Are there other online aucctions that even have a chance of being as large as eBay? Or other payment methods? I see the whole PayPal-as-part-of-Ebay, so much like the Microsoft having become the defacto desktop and then pushing it's web browser and subsequent internet policies on everyone.
One man's pink plane is another man's blue plane.
What difference does it make that this was stolen from an Open Source company? Is it any less a crime if it were just stolen from you in general?
Further, why doesn't the author just find out who Jin Jiang mailed the camera to? I'm sure someone would be happy to pay the buyer a little visit.
Haiku
This isn't the first time I've heard of MAJOR problems with PayPal and their terms of agreement for their customers. To put it simply, PayPals terms relieve them of all liabilty. Even if its their faulty for not having the correct protection mechanism for their customers. The day Ebay and PayPal merged is the day I became wary of Ebay, I brought this up with a professor in the School of Information researching information ecomomics on the internet. This doesn't bode well for Ebays reputation and this is another example why users shouldn't use PayPal.
http://www.paypalwarning.com/
"A thorough reading of the Paypal terms of service will reveal that you cannot even sue them should you have a legitimate claim. Their terms of service make it very hard to sue them! There have been several class-action lawsuits filed against Paypal."
He says, "...their system is notoriously insecure."
It seems to me that if the system is that insecure, the perps could have found something more lucrative to rob than the Abiword tip jar. I'm sure there are power sellers on ebay that do more business in a week than the tip jar sees in a year.
Perhaps his fund password was something like "abiword" or he responded to a scam e-mail...
Reading the complete post, I see "...Their silence implies to me that they are treating this matter as if I got mugged on the street, rather than as if someone walked into their bank and withdrew my money without my consent."
So it sounds as if it was not a hole but rather an error on Dom's part. I look forward to reading more about this to find out just how this happened.
Oh cmon. 3/4 of the world is poor and you downgrade me because information is power? Shit. I might as well forsake the computer and program with rocks and sticks (it can be done, you euber hackers!). Fuck. Pussies. You can't code worth a damn, or you'd elsee you'd have already freed the world.
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This incident is not one of a kind. If you want to you can sign the petition to shut them down here
Http://www.paypalwarning.com
Thousands of storys just like this one. Just don't use them, its that simple.
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However, with all due respect let us also conduct this in the most honourable way possible, as we certainly do not want news coverage (if any) to turn into PayPal showing mean/degrading messages from developers. A sincere message expressing our concern is sufficient. There is absolutely NO NEED for four-letter excemplatives, hate messages, or any of the such.
Lastly, I'd like to say to the AbiWord Team: Great Job! Keep up the work! Don't like such a stupid miser mess up the great work of the general public.
(On the other hand, if each slashdot user with a job donated just $1.00 .... this could quickly pass over the stolen amount; hint .. hint ... hint)
John Goodman stole them to buy octopus outfit. He will be Dr. Octopus in Spider-Man 2.
..because thats where the money was =)
thirsty*i^2
"Ya I finished that last week, it just doesn't work"
Even if they do outsource their support to India, I'd bet they keep some sort of stats about emails and the issues covered...maybe if enough people complain and cancel their accounts someone will listen...unlikely but it's worth a hope.
-tcp
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I used my checking account to 'secure' my paypal account, and purposefully kept very little money in it, in order to avoid problems. When I used PayPal to subscribe to totalfark.com a few days ago, I was alarmed to see a notice at the bottom of the screen: "If you have insufficient funds in your paypal account, they will be automatically withdrawn from your checking account without notice". So much for keeping $20 bucks in there; it appears they can, even within their TOS, pull money from an account without your permission. This story was the last straw; I can't afford to have our family's account wiped out by these shitheels. Account closed!
...but I just closed my Paypal account and sent them an email expressing my disgust. I urge others to do the same.
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it is entirely possible that your thief did this very same process and used it to gain access.
if you go through the password retrieval process in a completely unsatisfactory way, it will present a telephone number for you to call. the wait on hold wasn't even that long. the human was nice, and its far more immediate than sending an email.
if you can't get through that way, i suggest calling ebay's fraud prevention and taking it up with them. ebay just bought paypal, remember?
hope this helps
"You never want a serious crisis to go to waste." - Rahm Emanuel
lawsuit!
1. the people against the thief
2. the people against paypal
3. the people against ebay
4. the people against the camera salesman
All north american Abiword donators should make this cases heared in court!
Why abiword is a good question. Why not some warez cd distributor?? Either chosen at random, they made the wrong people angry, or ms really needs to learn to play nice when it comes to competition :). But seriously, if you were to do this, why would you choose abiword? I can't think of a single reason besides a grudge or randomness... Makes you think.
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...just as soon as someone explains how the theft occured and why it is PayPal's fault. If the theft occured by someone hacking PayPal, then it is indeed their fault and I will cancel. But if the theft occured because Abiword had a simple to guess password, 47 people knew the password, or some other idiocy like that, then I have no sympathy...and I will continue to be a happy PayPal customer who has conducted thousands of dollars worth of transactions (both directions) and had no problems what so ever.
I do notice that the referenced note is long on inuendo and short on facts, and that in itself makes me suspicious.
I want a new quote. One that won't spill. One that don't cost too much. Or come in a pill.
Why doesn't Dom Lachowicz create an account on one of the alternative *paypal like* sites mentioned before so we can replace the money, which was lost. This whole unfortunate episode can be used to remind us of our obligations to the open-source software that we use. This doesn't really change the business practices of paypal or offer any form of justice, but at least it solves the current funds problem. ...Waiting for a slashback
unless you consider trusting paypal.
I havent read the details yet, but I am a little curious as to how the money was stolen. If the password was "abiword", for example, I would not think less of PayPal if they laughed.
On the other hand, if a server was hacked or a rep socially engineered, PayPal should fire whoever didn't follow the security policy and give the money back no questions asked. Perhaps even slip in a little more money so that the robbed will keep quiet.
Like most people, I think governments should do something to keep PayPal in check (assuming this whole ordeal is their fault).
Dear Mr Empee
I'm sorry to inform you that your landlord had put cheap locks on your place, and it was subsequently broken into. Because you didn't change the locks. As your insurance company we will have to deny your claim. Sorry but that's the breaks.
I saw previous posters say they closed their accounts after they found out about AbiWord theft, I closed my account as soon as I've read through posts on the site above.
How much money should someone be allowing to accumulate in a Paypal "donation" account? I ask because I think that anyone who lets the account grow too much (like beyond $100 or one transaction, whichever is greater) is begging for trouble. I know that there are transaction fees when you take money out of the account, so were the Abiword people being cheap by not withdrawing earlier?
For example, if there is a 2.9%+$0.30 charge to receive $100 from the account (see Paypal for details), that would be a charge of $3.20 leaving $96.80 in the check I assume they would send out. Even at $50, you're looking at $2.25 with $47.75 of actual money coming at you.
Clearly, were I running the deal I wouldn't be leaving money in this "fund" and I think that Mr. Lachowicz was a damned fool to do so, whether Paypal is generally believed to be a security risk or not.
Frankly, I have more sympathy for someone who loses $30 or $40 from their Paypal account because of this kind of fraud than I do in this case. Someone who loses such a small amount of money could have had some valid reason to have the money in their. Someone who leaves $800 sitting around, doing nothing (savings account interest rates are small, but Paypal interest rates, well, are nonexistant), probably needs a lesson taught to them.
Blaming Paypal alone would be a mistake.
Paypal works fine as long as you have no need for any human interaction. While you're sending money, they are happy to skim 5-10% off each transaction.
When the unimaginable happens and you need customer service, there is no one to help you.
I have had to deal with them several times, not one of which was a positive experience. They are the worst company I have ever had the displeasure of working with. I was looking forward to seeing eliminated by friendlier competition; but now we'll have to see what EBay does with it.
"Failure of Windows operating systems is extremely rare. If it happens, it is usually due to operating system file c
Paypal should pay.
A lasuit against Ebay itself since they have acquired PayPal?
FWIW I will worte to paypal and express my extreme dissatisfaction with this turn of events.
Bets of luck to you guys!
----- In Your Cubicle No One Can Hear You Scream...
Paypals complaint resolution works like this:
File complaint
Paypal emails other party on your behalf
Paypal receives no response for other party after X number of days(duh)
Paypal deems your money unrecoverable (sorry)
Filed fraud w/ my CC company
CC company investigates (and when they finally stop laughing) remove charge from my CC (thank you!)
Recieve nastygram from PayPal for not initiating the charge back through Paypal for the 10 dollar fee instead of the free service my CC provides.. (dick heads!)
Luckily my CC company came through with no problem. But I was scammed on a PS2 system on Ebay (long story) the sad part is that there were about 20 of us that lost out on the ebay thing. A couple of them used paypal and got nothing! and since they didn't use a CC (which paypal would rather u use a straight bank transfer) they got screwed. Got nothing back. Sad.
Thank you. Drive through. (:wq)
Sure just send money to their paypal account and...oh wait
So was the early subscriptions system a lure to get as many Slashdot fellow readers as possible into using PayPal ?
glad to be informed of this. Just close my account.
After reading this ridiculous story, I'm going to open a C2IT (Citibank) account and try to use that push that as my main auction payment method. I'm also going to send several e-mail and/or letters.
I am unsure how effective this would be, but what about petitiononline.com?
To close your paypal account follow that link. I just closed mine.
Then send them an e-mail explaining why. I'm going to now.
P.S. It seems to me the seller of the camera/PDA must have mailed the thing somewhere. Get that address. Contact local police. Contact EBay's fraud division. ETC. I'd be surprised if this money cannot be recovered. In the meantime, I hope Abiword is busy setting up a C2it account.
Like Digital Freedoms? Then donate to EFF before they're gone.
That really stinks. I wish Dom the best of luck getting his money back.
But, I'm not going to cancel my PayPal account over this just yet. I've had the account since the service began (remember when it was for Palm Pilots?). Never had a problem. I treat PayPal with kid gloves because they are not regulated the same way banks are (and they shouldn't be: they are a payment service, not a full-service bank), and they are a huge hacker's target.
Here what I do with my PayPal account (I use it quite a bit on eBay for buying and selling):
1) Set up a separate bank account for PayPal. I have a money market fund whose sole purpose in life is to transfer money between paypal and my regular savings account. I transfer the money out at least once a month or so.
2) never give PayPal any more information than they need. Give them one credit card (preferably exclusive to PayPal with a PO box billing address). Don't sign up for the piss-ant Money Market fund that requires giving them your Social Security Number. No extra emails, phone numbers, or mailing addresses. Change password often.
3) NEVER UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES leave a balance in your PayPal account. Because it's PayPal's money, not yours, until you take it out (remember, it's not a bank). Withdraw immediately. Even if you need to pay for an auction later, use your bank/credit card to pay for it. (I use a Citibank card that gives a cash back bonus, so I actually get a small benefit from doing this.)
4) If they send you a free Debit card, cancel it. Don't sign up for the credit card either.
You have to keep in mind also, PayPal can freeze your money at any time. All that has to happen is someone file a complaint against you. They can lock your account. They can do various silly things.
I don't want to "blame the victim", but if your money is not in the PayPal account, it can't be stolen. And if there's a fraudulent charge on your credit card, it can be taken care of with a signed affidavit, or maybe just a letter, like any problem with your card. Your card has consumer protection laws associated with it, your PayPal account doesn't.
I did have one of my other cards stolen once and used on PayPal (had nothing to do with my paypal account, the perp opened his own). I wrote them and received a response and an affidavit to fill out, the next day. In fact, all my PayPal customer service mails have been answered the next day. (I have a "premier" / "merchant rate" account, which gets better treatment, ymmv).
By this point, with all the horror stories out there, I'm surprised anyone would keep a balance in their PayPal account.
"...system is notoriously insecure"
Bullshit. How about "I had an insecure password", or "I responded to one of those emails from a scammer that claimed to be PayPal", or "Another system I use was compromised and I stupidly use the same password everywhere" instead?
I'm gonna guess one of those scenarios is more likely than any security failing on PayPal's part. Certainly if there was a security hole in PayPal itself, there are much bigger fish to go after -- any of eBay's Power Sellers, for instance, probably have much more than $500 or so in their accounts at any given moment.
NO CARRIER
1) Sue Ebay (who own Paypal)
2) Boycott Ebay.
3) Write Ebay's board of directors (it's a public company)
4) Find out where that money was transfered and bring a lawsuit.
5) Yeah, Paypal is beginning to look like a bank. And if it starts to reach a critical mass, don't worry about YOU having to contact your congressman, odds are your bank will, and they will make something happen.
firstly show them some love by clicking here
I am sure someone checks their referral logs & they should get some idea on whats being discussed here.
Siggy Say, Siggy Do
...under US federal banking laws and this article from CNET explains why better than I could.
In a show of support, I have closed my account. Not like there was any money in my account, but I did have 4 accounts tied to it. As a college student, I cannot afford for people like PayPal to dick me around. They didn't ever screw up and probably wouldn't. But I believe that customer support is more important than the service offered. I've worked in the banking industry and learned that people aren't loyal to their banks. Good luck PayPal: you have not yet realized "customers first, profits second," but, rather, you have taken up a "profits first, customers second" attitude. The latter attitude never becomes successful in the long run and will always come back to bite like a viper.
Mod me redundant but...
So contact "Jun Jiang", find out to where he shipped the camera and arrange a little "visit..." Looks like the perp also bought another camera so if Jun Jiang can't /won't provide the address (which he should 'cos he got money from "you") - then ask the other seller. Then arrange the "visit". I'm sure a number of folks would be only too happy to help with the "visit", especially those who contributed to the tip jar.
Rich people are eccentric. Poor people are strange. Me, I'd be happy with odd.
No, see, YOU put the locks on your place. The landlord made you put a lock on there, but you chose the lock. You decided if it was a stainless-steel master lock, or one of those crappy cord-looking bike locks that could be cut through with a pair of grade-school safety scissors. Paypal doesn't set your password, YOU DO.
In all seriousness, isn't the security of a password still sacred? I mean, you can log in to any server, anywhere, with nothing more than an absconded password; do you really expect Paypal to do more than that?
If I cancel my account, how am I supposed to paypal Cezar teh moniez?!?!
You can pay for your EBay stuff besides Paypal. IIRC you can pay electronic check, credit card, etc. Paypal only acts as an intermediary between seller and buyer, I think. It's been a while since I've sold/bought anything from there.
PayPal makes a fine s fine spume about "FDIC
Pass-Through Insurance". Just a fancy way of saying they don't have
insurance and probably can't get it.
There was no theft. He just took the money out to buy a copy of MS Office XP and didn't want you all to look down on him.
Ok I have a few questions: 1. Should I be worried about people stealing money from my bank account using paypal if I have an un-guessable password? 2. Do I just need to work about the money currently in my PayPal account? 3. Are there any viable alternatives to PayPal? 4. How could paypal change to make them a good solution? I think that's all I have questions about. Thanks in advance for the help and don't destroy me if these are dumb questions...
Paypal is not a bank, if somebody guesses your password and robs you blind, you are screwed.
Knowing this, do not keep large balances in your paypal account! This isn't that hard people.
If you want the hand holding that a bank will provide, be prepared to lose much of the flexibility that Paypal offers. Millions of us use it and love it. Don't ruin it for us because you have a bad password.
Hints for Paypal.
1. Use a good password.
2. Give that password to nobody else.
3. Do not keep a large balance at Paypal, transfer the funds to your bank account, it is free. Do so frequently.
4. Do not EVER pay for something with funds from your Paypal account. Withdraw all funds and use a credit card via Paypal. If things go wrong, cancel with your credit card company.
I have read all the sites warning of the problems with Paypal. If you follow these simple rules you will not have any real trouble with Paypal. Even if somebody does get your password, steps 3 and 4 will make sure that your loss is minimal.
Don't ruin this for us because a select few didn't take the time to protect themselves. Paypal is a wonderful service, if you take some very basic and simple precautions. Really, how hard is it to follow the 4 simple steps I listed above?
What a bunch of whiney-asses! Here is how to stay safe on Paypal:
(1) Use your credit card ONLY - you can always do a charge-back to Paypal via your credit card company of a disputed charge, therefore you are protected! I had to do this once and it all worked out OK;
(2) DO NOT maintain a balance in yoru Paypal account - they allow you to "sweep" any blanace into a regular bank checking account nightly!
(3) Choose a strong password.
Was that simple enough?! If you want a free-market society, you can't jump on the "sue them" bandwagon just because you lost money - no-one will want to provide services. A previous poster said it best when they said - SOMEONE stole the money, so Paypay is not at fault - they do not guarantee your money in any way - get it? If they had used Paypal's "balance sweep" service to move their Paypal balance to their normal (FDIC insured) bank account each night this have happened, correct?
I for one, don't want to pay additional fees for Paypal to become a bank and insure my money (I never keep a paypal balance), so take your business elsewhere (we've got too many laws on the books already!).
Certainly... let's blame the victim here.. That's so asenine. In a capitalist society we should have a reasonable expectation of security when working with businesses like this. The problem isn't with people using the service, the prople is that our Government no longer has the balls to enforce our laws. Should we blame everyone who invested in Enron for being stupid? Our government better start acting very soon here or people are going to start to loose confidence in the system?
Topic...
sig.
There isn't enough information in the announcement to tell if that's what happened here, but if PayPal failed to do their job (e.g., they didn't take reasonable security precautions in proportion to their responsibility), a lawsuit is exactly the right thing. In most (i.e., libertarian rather than anarchist) conceptions of the free market, it's part of the gummint's job to enforce contracts, and there's clearly a contract here, even if some parts are just implied by the nature of the relationship: "in exchange for a cut, we will hold onto your money for you" => "if we fuck up and cause you to lose your money, we'll pony up".
You try making a credit card payment where your bank has your new address but still has the old address attached to your credit card so they reject payments verified by address and then finding out a month later that the payment didn't go through.
All my bills are current, all my debts are paid off, and my platinum credit card just raised my limit.
They know who the seller was. Surely he had to transmit the camera to the buyer somehow. Trace him through that.
I would find the guy that did (trust me, I *would* find him). I wouldn't even ask for the money back. I would just beat the shit out of him, destroy any of his possessions I could get my hands on, and fly home.
I think to many people try resolve things through the police and legal system. It's a waste of time. If these fuckers started getting their asses beat, this shit wouldn't happen as much.
Yes, YOU. I put that in all caps, did that help? YOU selected how to pay.
If YOU want paypal to hold your hand like a bank, Paypal will have to charge us much higher fees to pay for the insurance.
I like not paying fees. 1. Don't leave a balance in your Paypal account. 2. Always pay with credit card.
Those two steps will remove any chance of damages. Yet, YOU would rather have us all pay tons of fees. How hard are those two simple things? Take some responsibility for yourself, don't make us all pay to have Paypal do it for you.
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fencepost
just a little off
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I just checked the abiword website..and to donate funds they say you must have a paypal account...and give you a link to contribute...that sends you to PAYPAL. Is this a joke??
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My guess: PayPal themselfs.
They have a notorious history of restricting accounts, withdrawing the wrong (more) ammounts, and such. And and you use them to sell software, DON'T
They assume all software is owned by microsoft, and will demand that you prove that you are licenced by microsoft to sell the code. It doesn't matter if your distributing Linux distros, other various GPL software, BSD licenced code, home written code, anything, you gotta prove that MS gave you permission. I wrote a console app to manage DNS records. It was a small C/Perl application for BIND on BSD. They fucking restricted me and cited there AUP. MY code. It's absolutly assinine.
If I ever meet anyone who works for paypal IRL
I will, literally, beat my owed money out of them. The pure satisfaction would be worth the jail time.
The moral I learned: Keep buisness in real stores and off the net.
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Report them to the IFCCFBI (ifccfbi.gov). That is the combined efforts of the FBI and the FCC to fight Internet Fraud. I finally got tired of being ripped off by LCIS (read: Computer Books Direct/bookspan) and filed a complaint against them. You should file an official complaint against PayPal.
http://www.google.com/profiles/malachid
Obligatory Slashdot metaphor: It is like buying a house in a neighborhood knowing it has a high crime rate and bitching because you got shot.
(Obligatory Slashdot counter-metaphor to follow this post.)
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So, about a year ago I broke into 10+ accounts at paypal, and moved a couple of bucks (12k or so) around, didnt TAKE anything, just moved back and forth from accounts. After a good amount of time after that, I contacted paypal and told them how I was able to do it, and how EASY it was. I got in touch with someone, who, I presume is one of, if not the only security guy at PayPal. According to him, its not worth there time to impliment more security features as it makes it harder for the user to gain their access to the account. Plus, its not PayPals loss if they get hacked... so why pay money and lose users to not gain anything?
Bill
-Bill
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Arrest this guy! He's a terrorist!
(I'm kidding of course, just trying to be a Patriot.)
I think abiworld guy is covering up stealing from the fund. Thief!!! I have a idea let's all go file a fraud report on Dom Lachowicz.
My wife opened a Paypal account for me, and one for herself, then transferred $6,000 from my account to hers. We didn't see that money again for three months, as they pretended to be "investigating" the transaction for possible fraud. Never mind that we talked to them many times on the telephone, and send proof of our ownership of the accounts several times, and pleaded with them to resolve this, as we needed the money.
The delay was beyond any point of being able to pretend that they actually made any effort to resolve the situation. It was in fact more than 10 days after we first contacted them before they would even open what they call an "investigation". They claim that their procedures are set up to combat fraud, but it's just a way of establishing deniability. That is, they pretend that they have no intention whatever of stringing me along as long as they can, while they collect interest on my money. (And no, they never did offer any compensation for the lost interest, let alone the many hours we were forced to spend pursuing them, to get our money back.)
You think mine is an isolated case? It is by no means. Just do a web search for paypal+complaint. See all the distressed people. See the lawsuits.
It's a transparent scam: by locking up the money of only a certain percentage of their customers, and treating the rest reasonably well, the people who claim that Pay Pal engages in a pattern of sleazy misconduct will never be believed, because they will always be outnumbered by customers who have never had a problem.
That doesn't make it right.
Life's a bitch but somebody's gotta do it.
Come on... PayPal isn't corrupt! Theres no such thing as a corrupt dot com company. They're all fine, upstanding companies with untarnished reputations.
Take your PayPal troll somewhere else, buddy!
Bowie J. Poag
I'm not sure what others' experiences have been with this company, but I'm looking into getting it myself... A new company, called NetSpend (www.netspend.com) is offering reloadable MasterCards which you can either put money onto at any store or check cashing location that allows it, or get money deposited to via online transaction... The bonus, of course, is that you can access your money directly (while paying the average $1-$2 fee for ATM usage), and a paltry $20 per year charge to maintain your account...
The only apparent drawback of the program is that you can only transfer funds from one NetSpend account to another, so of course, your buyers/contributers need to have a card themselves... Considering that the fee is extremely low, and the fact that NetSpend is on the BBB, they seem a bit more straightforward than PayPal... Also, they don't need to pass any credit application procedures, or open a bank account (unlike secured credit cards), it can be extremely simple to obtain.
Another added bonus is that the credit card acts as a secondary form of ID...
Just because you can mod me down, doesn't mean you're right. Shoes for industry!
Granted, the easiest way to prevent this is to not use paypal, but up to this point, they haven't done me wrong, they've actually backed me up on an auction I won, and paid for, and the seller never shipped the product... Paypal got my money back for me within a week of submitting the dispute.
So, Paypal isn't ALL bad, granted their security should be a bit better, and perhaps they are a bit understaffed, because complaints do take quite awhile to respond to. (but *3* weeks?)
I have heard enough warnings about paypal. I am no longer able to trust them with any financial information and have closed my account. The final kick in the pants? A $1.50 "check processing" fee to refund your final balance.
sign the petition RIGHT NOW
sign the petition RIGHT NOW
sign the petition RIGHT NOW
sign the petition RIGHT NOW
Everything's been peachy with me so far. Why is it other people have problems? A lot of people also complained about UpstateGames.com REALLY REALLY REALLY late GBA shipments last year, but mine arrived early. For once, I'd like to actually get on the butt end of these problems so I can relate.
A nice alternative to paypal (for some purposes) is Yahoo's PayDirect.. paydirect.yahoo.com..
... since there have been enough paypal bashing for one day, how about folks kicking in a buck or two to raise some more funds for abiword?
Heck, if some nimwit in NYC can raise 20k to help pay off their credit card bill from donations, surely at least $600 can be raised to help abiword? Hell, maybe we can get some of that infamous Slashdot effect directed towards kicking a buck to their back account.
-Bill
SlashSig Karma: Excellent (mostly affected by moderatio
Ever heard of a Money Order? I have yet to see an auction that didn't accept these....
God forbid wait an extra week for your Collectors Edition Velvet Elvis.....
Isn't this a case of theft and/or fraud, probably crossing state lines? It's my impression that this is the sort of thing that's supposed to be handled by the FBI.
Have they been contacted on the matter?
Russ
Information doesn't want to be anthropomorphized anymore.
Paypal does have phone support, but you only get it with their business/premier accounts. If you have a business account it trivial to find a 1-888 number for them. Now I have read it has been outsourced to India which doesn't sound great, but at least you can talk to someone if they are actually making money off you. They shave 2.2-3.9% + 30 cents off each of my incoming money. 2.2% + 30 cents is for Merchant accounts which have qualification requirements. 3.2% + 30 cents is merchant receiving money from someone outside the country. 2.9% + 30 cents is standard business caaounts receiving money and 3.9% + 30 cents is standard receiving money from outside the country.
The prices are like a form of sales tax, but at least they are better than c2it, western union, or bank wire. Checks would be cheaper in the US, but also less convientent. Not sure checks from out of the country would work.
Overall I am just going to require payments be charge + paypal sales tax. It makes me wonder if the government is going to get especially upset with ebay/paypal now they they have found a way to virtually collect a sales tax on the internet.
I am definitely use the methods mentioned above to protect myself and look for something better. So far I haven't found anything as cheap online.
Havoc Penington, the bane of my Linux desktop.
Their password was guessed, probably because rabid Open Source advocates only ever choose passwords like "m$sux0rz".
Abiword DESERVE to be ripped off. Their pitiful attempt at a 'word processor' is a pathetic joke, like all OS software.
I really hope some GNU/Shitheads starve this Xmas because of this. Maybe then they'll grow up and get a real job.
AbiWord needs our help! With the resources available to us here on slashdot, I'm sure that we can raise the money in no time.
Someone set up a paypal account.
Can someone from the US explain what the advantages of PayPal are that are not solved by your regular bank?
In Sweden you can transfer money from your bank to a friends account using the internet, even if he has another bank. This is the way I use now to "pay a pal". I think it is also possible to attach a message to this transfer so that you can say "payment for tickets" or something like that.
There are limits for the transfer amount though, but it is in the 2500 dollar range.
I use PayPal, I've heard the stories. It's just too convenient not to.
I never leave a balance in my account, almost always pay via credit card, and am critical of those I send money to.
They do, however, have bank information for one of my main accounts. Opening a separate "PayPal" account is too much trouble.
Have there been any cases of PayPal actually going and taking money from your *bank account* without specific prior authorization? Do I have legal recourse (via my bank) if they do this?
I've kind of wondered about this in general -- what protections are there with ACH transactions? The routing/account number combo is at least as dangerous as a credit card, if not more so.
If a free-market society means I'd have to go to a lot of extra trouble, with no benefit to myself, just to not get ripped off all the time, then why would I want one?
He is probably paid to promote PayPal - Slashdot is a prime target for astroturfers.
Sure enough Paypal processed the payment to some individual for $6,009. Wife freaks. Writes to paypal, they tell her tough shit, they can't do a thing about it, please ensure she has money in her accounts to fund the transaction.
So the wife cancels her credit card, talks to bank to make sure they will bounce the draft, etc...
Sure enough, next day, a draft for over six grand bounces, first $29 bank bounce charge fee. Pay pal autowrites her a nastygram saying to fund the account, that she MUST fund the account due to her paypal user agreement and they will try again in two days. Wife writes back, DON'T TRY AGAIN. Again, they say there is nothing they can do about it.
Again, another bounce, another $29 fee from bank. Finally, paypal gives up.
Some tips for all that she uses that saved her....
Like another posted said earlier, Paypal is like playing the stock market, don't put in what you can't afford to lose. Just in her case, it looked like she was going to lose much more than that for a while there.
Hi!
.. lets hope every freesoftware project will cease to use paypall .. cause they realy suck.
I noticed that freeciv.org uses paypall too
The money belongs to PAYPAL! So the theft was from PAYPAL, not ABIWORD. So it's PAYPAL that should be calling up the FBI. Why haven't they? Because maybe they'd end up being investigated for their shoddy business practices.
now we need to go OSS in diesel cars
Contact the seller of the Sony and get the serial number. Contact Sony and tell them this serial number is stolen. Write them a follow-up letter, registered return reciept requested detailing the scam/theft. Notify the authorities in the State the Sony seller resides in. Tell them the same story. Wait, the asswipe who eventually gets the camera will register it for warranty purposes and you will have a trail to backtrack on, voila'. Busted asswipes! QED. Sure you may have purchased the stolen camera at a flea market, but the lower than normal price should have been a tip-off. No excuses loser!
And speaking of recourse and chargebacks, there isn't much of that anymore. All the card companies want to know is if there was a signature, an itemized list of charges, and that the exp date was checked. If those 3 conditions are met, you are on the hook.
AmEx is the worst.
If you've hooked up PayPal with a checking account, you be totally fuxord. No recourse at all, ever. Think *debit card*.
Please add a new "Page widening" (or "Lay-out breaker") moderation category, and let those posts be modded down below -1.
I don't want to raise my browsing treshold above -1, the trolls are half the reason to why we read Slashdot after all, and we readers naturally do not always agree with the moderators on what deserves to be modded down.
By browsing at -1, we choose to read everything, "raw and uncut". The keyword is "read". The page-wideners are attempting to prevent us from doing this. Let the page-widening posts rot in -2 hell.
(Score: -2, Page-widener)
Is that too much to ask for?
There are many organisations/people (including myself) who simply cannot afford to use credit card acquirers, yet rely on credit card donations through the internet.
Whilst I have had no problems myself with paypal, these stories scare me. What other companies/options do people like myself have? Are we stuck with paypal?
-- 7 string electric violin + live loop samplers
" ... Writing or calling your Congressman/woman, pointing out that Paypal is acting like a bank, but not operating under formal banking laws. 4) Boycotting Paypal because of these reasons, and the fact that their system is notoriously insecure"
So I'm wondering... why did they have that account there in the first place?
First off I'll say I like AbiWord and use it and wish their project well.. that being said.. on with my rant..
Every time someone has a problem with PayPal they whine that it is actting like a bank without being a bank. Obviously they must be stupid because PayPal states clearly that it is not a bank and has no federal insurance. Somehow they think being a bank would make it better. IMO banks suck. They've ripped me off countless times. I don't want PayPal to be a bank. They've never done me wrong and they give me freedoms a bank wouldn't be able to. If you want a bank go open a bank account. If you want a PayPal account open a PayPal account. If your not bright enough to know the difference than spare us the cry story.
I've had very good customer support from PayPal. They were a little slow but no worse than the banks I've dealt with and at least they didn't give me the run around like banks usually do. If a security flaw in PayPal allowed your money to be stolen I'd suspect they'll be willing to refund your money. If you just picked the name of your dog as a password and some bozo guessed it then I'd say tough luck. If you pissed off an ex-girlfriend and she took your money then again tough luck.
If you are smart you won't leave very large funds all in one place in PayPal, a bank, under your bed, or anywhere. This is common sense. PayPal makes it easy to transfer your money back into the bank account of your choice. If you wanted to do this you had the option open to you.
So try contacting them again. It's not that difficult to do. Make sure you have a good password on your account. Frequently empty your account into one or more bank accounts, PayPal accounts, or coffee cans (Whatever you like) so that you don't have a giant honeypot tempting all the bees. Just stop whining about them not being a bank. Hope ya get your money back.
At what price learning? At what cost wisdom? The price is a man's peace of mind, and the cost is his life.
It's the Treasury department and Congress who robbed abisource; hackers have ethics and there is none out there who are in the private sector (ie.. non-government hackers) who would rob such a wonderful group. Face it the government feels threatened by Pay Pal, as they'd loose all their power if Pay Pal became more popular then the dollar becomes crap, congress folds their tent, the usa as a superpower is no more, etc...
Think about what is needed to enable cracking of an anonymous p2p payment system, ie.. a network sniffer (carnivore) and super computers for cracking the encryption. Besides, I just heard a republican speaking at the christian coalition about a week and a half ago, saying they were going to "go after the pay pal's".
Reading this post and then some of the associated pages about paypal are making me consider closing my account i have there. I have used paypal for a couple of years. makes buying things thru auctions and the like waaay to easy. now this, i mean what is going on there, i woudl really like to hear something specific on how it was done, from the standpoint of was it a hack or was it from the inside. now keep in mind i do not know anyone from the open source community personally, i dont want it to sound like i am trhowing out accusations about anyone involved in Abiword. if it has come across that way i apologize. now back to my point here, if it was a hack then that makes me very uncomfortable with their security. would anyone put their money in a back that hired a guard that slept all day while he/she was supposed to be watching for criminal activity?
a wise man once said "two wrongs dont make a right, but three rights do make a left" and that wise man was gallagher
bad news for abiword.
but honestly. either the money should have been "backed up" on a non-pay-pal account or the money should have been collected similar to blender.
by the way i am sure blender didnt use paypal cause it was outside the u.s. which as you see is often not a bad thing(tm).
like everything as i live in europe i see us legislation rather barbaric (death penalty) and american culture very dependent on some enemies on the outside like communism, al quaida, some mad sniper, or saddam hussein.
Actually, a lot of customers I deal with (large satellite tv company) like to pay monthly by credit card, because they get airmiles and stuff when they use their cards. They don't get that if they set up direct debit. Now normally, they set up a continuous credit card payment mandate, but quite a few people prefer to just ring up and pay. Why should it cost them extra?
It seems paypal equates to a warehouse with lots of lockboxes full of money. Money comes in or moves from lockbox to lockbox, and then goes out. However, there's no attendant, so the only thing between your money and a thief is just a key (bare with me on the bank info part, it just makes things more complicated) and a lockbox number. When a thief breaks into a lockbox, in a warehouse, normally we would call the police. But this warehouse is electronic, the lockboxes are electronic, the money, well, you get the idea.
Hell, I would probably feel safer giving my money to a backwoods county fair carney. Least I can try to kick his ass if he loses it, and would have some knowlege of who stole it from him, if he were robbed.
| - | - |
this is why i use alternatives to paypal whenever possible. ZMy god, steal from people who are putting out such great software for free. They obviously have a knowledge of computers, so they obviously know how great abiword is. Why would someone steal from a non profit organisation
History will be kind to me, for I intend to write it - Sir Winston Churchill
I have had good experience with http://www.Evocash.com
http://www.E-Gold.com (gold backed)
http://www.E-Bullion.com (gold backed)
E-Bullion has an option for a credit card sized DigiPass security device for logging in.
Organization: alphabetical, sometimes numerical or messy
I would've done it as AC as well. Balless Windows using wimp! All shit and no goose!
-- Many men would appreciate a woman's mind more if they could fondle it
This is not entirely true.
Visa now requires (if you are processing a card without being able to swipe the actual plate) a zip code for the account holder as well as the card exp date.
This catches alot of would be number swipers off guard. No zip, No charge. End of Line.
There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order- Ed Howdershelt Via Tass
I have only used PayPal to make donations in the past. From now on I will only donate to organisations that don't put *my* remaining funds at risk. I used my visa check card as the payment source at PP and any screw-up or complaint and PP could have frozen or captured all of my readily available funds. If even a small fraction of the stories on the forums are completely true, I can't justify supporting their business.
Kindness is the language which the deaf can hear and the blind can see. - Mark Twain
Well, many e-commerce sites, such as for example our beloved Pet Swearhouse do store both credit card and zip code in their online database, which is trivially accessible through sql injection. Other online retailers even store the credit card verification number (CVV).
again, VA lairy et AL, trashing the name of yet another company, without ANY supporting/rebuttal/2nd/3rd party information.
it's OBVIOUS that at least 1/2 of this "story" missing.
paypal's treated US very well. as far as leaving your virtual "dough" on a web server somewhere, think about IT.
it's a convenient way to transfer money from an account to another or to pay off a credit card bill. Not all credit cards offer online payment. And if the credit card is not in your name you cant even begin. Not all banks offer online banking and even if they did you might not want to set them up when you already have pay pal. In the early days pay pal did not have fees so this was a very handy meta-banking system.
Some drink at the fountain of knowledge. Others just gargle.
Shouldn't this be moderated +1, Ironic ?
Yeah, rob/larry & "co." should (be compelled to) do a lengthy story on their stint as stock markup "billionaires", & the frauduleNT behaviours they/their "bankers" may have engaged in. The prize of lnux going from 300$ per "share", to a nickle, represents grand larceny to many. 'course nobody's responsible(tm) for that, write?
Stealing from an open source project to buy a shitty camera is almost as despicable as stealing from the homeless guy.
Don't even bother with Paypal customer service, they have been stonewalling everyone for years. Try talking to Ebay customer service,... and try to talkyou way up to amore senior Manager or someone else who has the authority to call up the Paypal losers and demand "whats going on here?" Hopefully Ebay doesn't want to risk its reputation going gown the tubes as quickly as Paypal's did a few years back.
Not if I was joking ;)
-
ping -f 255.255.255.255 # if only
You must be confused. How can you compare the petty larceny that "may" have taken place at the hobbyist's site, with the massive fraud associated with the lnux scam? What are you saying? Theft/deception is theft/deception, be IT a dime or a billyun dollars? How absurd.
For those of us who are really at a lost who is he?
"Not knowing when the dawn will come, I open every door." - Emily Dickinson
If you get your money back the seller will lose! The chargeback will be taken from his account, and he's out a camera.
There was a dual failure here. Your account was compromised, either through PayPal hacking or your poor password (I suspect the password's at fault). The second failure is one by the seller. He probably accepted the transaction even though the ship-to address didn't match the "verified" address of the account owner.
My point here is that unless you can prove that your password was compromised even though it was secure, PayPal DOES have adequate security procedures in this instance.
If you indeed had a bad password or failed to protect it properly, you should accept blame for this and take the loss. Otherwise, the seller of this item will end up at the short end of this deal. True, he made a mistake by disregarding PayPal's non-verified address warning (and he was warned), but this was likely all your fault to begin with.
At least this is going to make me change MY password to be more secure...
i was about to join paypal and use thier services but before i did that, i had done some research on the net. a shit load of people complained bout money loss and how they couldnt get it back... blah blah blah. im guessing that when they join X.com or whatever they had changed thier policys on frauds. meaning if they suspect you of money fraud they will automatically close your account and you cant get your shit back, and thats it.
that's hysterical. thanks.
I wonder how PayPal would react to several hundred or (thousand?) accounts being closed over one weekend. I'm sure they see tons of accounts being closed and opened all the time, but all at once would be neat. I just closed mine.
I wonder if anything will change with PayPal once Ebay officially takes over control.
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Nope. Paypal works really well for a lot of people. As long as transactions are smooth there is no issue. The main problem with Paypal is when something doesn't go as planned and you need their intervention. It doesn't happen. Read my other comment: http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=43431&cid=4540 353
Thank you. Drive through. (:wq)
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One of the best ways is to visit the hundreds/thousands of webmaster forums out there and spread the word about Paypal being the non-paying non-caring bitches that they are.
Why webmaster forums? Because they cater to the very people that Paypal often makes lots of $ from. If webmasters stop using paypal as a payment option, paypal loses lots of potential revenue.
I can assure you that within a day a guy aptly named "Paypal Damon" will show up to do damage control. This guy is always pop out of nowhere when people say crap about paypal. If you do this they often cave in and honor get their asses off the potty. Believe me, I've seen this happen before.
Here are a few that Paypal Damon has been known to troll around:
- vbulletin.com
- webhostingtalk.com
- anandtech.com
- tomshardware.com (not sure)
- sitepointforums.com
- any other webmaster or online business-related forums
eTrade SUCKS
Heh. Sorry. You're right: if you're worried about security, go with a money order. Heck, they can even be as anonymous as you want. It's a great service offered by the post office, really.
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Check out the screen shot from the article: he uses Hotmail! Microsoft probably transferred the money and used it legally, since they own anything that goes through their email service.
(Okay, I admit this not a fair judgement, but still... And how does he know that the thief bought a camera?)
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My own anti-Paypal site is at paypal.haters.info .
The thing I hate the most about PayPal is how their "viral marketing" succeeded so well that anyone who can't or won't use them is put at a serious disadvantage because so many sites on the Net use PayPal as their only means of payment, including various online auctions, sites seeking donations, and affiliate programs.
--Dan
Web Tips
I've been using Paypal for both auction payments and subscriptions for over a year now and haven't had any problems.. I see so many negative comments about the service, but they're not all bad. (And *no*, I'm not affiliated.. =P =)
Of course, I'll probably get modded down for this.. =) Bring it on! My karma is 't3h sUxX0r' anyway.
Alari
I use Windows... like a two dollar wh.. why don't I just go ahead and not finish that sentence.
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After all, they bought them: Cnet
?sp
Does no one take responsibility for their own actions anymore?
paypal is a useful service, with several caveats. Use at your own risk.
Don't be so incredibly irresponsible and idiotic to cry and whine when something bad happens, you simply should have taken better precautions. ESPECIALLY since you all seem to distrust paypal already, then DONT use it, or use it with caution!
Complaining to the government about paypal's policies is the absolute height of hypocrisy! If you don't agree with them, then simply DONT use them!
So this Jun character bought the camera with stolen money. What I don't get is this. As soon as that transaction went through, abiword should have contacted all parties involved in the transaction and told them to stop. In other words, don't ship the camera, by explaining to the seller that it is being paid for fraudulently. This shifts the burden.
Then, was this money left in the Paypal account, or was paypal just used as a conduit to rip off the bank?
I have to agree with a lot of others, who say to not leave much money in the account. There's just no upside, unless they were saving up to pay a seller who wouldn't take credit card payments.
Finally, to further protect yourself if you need to se Paypal: 1) sweep your account daily, 2) contact your bank and tell them to not allow transfers to Paypal, or 3) attach a bank account to Paypal that has a low balance.
Paypal is not a bank, they don't claim to be. And you can sue Paypal, as a judge ruled their arbitration process was unreasonable , more or less.
Good luck recovering those funds. Go after the transaction endusers, as they have some liability here for receiving stolen goods/ property.
Better yet, get a dedicated bank account, and make sure you move money out of Paypal's reach *promptly*. That means both out of your Paypal account, AND out of the dedicated bank account (which should be used solely as a buffer, not for keeping real money in).
This incident is not the first time Paypal has been hacked, and there have been cases where personal bank accounts have been depleted as well, via their Paypal connexion. So you do NOT want your Paypal account pointing at your regular bank account!!
I have a 2nd bank account just for Paypal. This account has a token $20 in it. Don't know about other banks, but at Washington Mutual, this costs me nothing (no fees of any sort). Because it's at the same bank and branch as my regular account, it's simple to transfer funds out of the "online account" ASAP.
~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
According to their EULA, they are not responsible for anything. Therefor, they can take your money at any time they wish and you can't do sh*t about it.
...this wouldn't have happened to him. Why would anybody use a browser that people wrote for free? It obviously won't be any good.
Internet Explorer is the most secure browser on the face of the earth!
Abiword is released under the GNU General Public License. This means that everybody that benifits from the GNU was hurt by PayPal's actions. Smells like class action to me. The damages caused by Paypal is actually much greater then the money that was taken. We need a good lawyer.
The truth shall not be hidden!
Do I have to go to a site? Guess their password? What?
The stealing likely was done during the most reliable hacking tool in the world, social engineering.
Anyone who has a PayPal account, likely got an email recently asking them to log in to log into their PayPal account to confirm for security purposes. This email looked exactly like any other PayPal email but linked to a fake paypal web site (again, one that looked perfect). Many people gave up their login information to this site. I even did the first time and had to change mey login info.
There are NO cases where people can point out that PayPal themselves have been hacked. When they do, they freeze the accounts.
Mex Levin (cofounder) is a crypto guy and security is #1 for him. I am on their developer advisory board and I know before anything rolls out, they make sure it is as secure as can be.
EVERY case I have seen regarding these issues have been either the merchant's fault, or PayPal freezing an account becuase it is involved in suspicious activity.
Just my $.02
Last week I completed a transaction using PayPal which I explicitly indicated that I wanted 100% of the funds to come from my registered credit card. I even got the confirmation email stating that it would come from that credit card, so I could keep a balance in my PayPal account.
What they ended up doing was debiting my PayPal balance to $0.00, and deducting the remainder of the transaction from my credit card.
PayPal saved me the trouble of debiting my account down to zero. Now it'll be easy to close.
I inquired and got the following email:
- - - - -
When you use PayPal to send money, the balance in your PayPal Account is used first. If you do not have enough money in your PayPal Account to cover the whole transaction, please refer to the information below:
If you do have a registered credit card, but do not have a confirmed bank account listed on your PayPal Account
PayPal will first use the balance in your account and charge the rest to your registered credit
card.
If you do not have a registered credit card, but you do have a confirmed bank account listed on your PayPal Account
The balance will not be used. The entire amount of the payment will be drawn from your bank
account. The payment will take 4 business days to complete.
If you have both a registered credit card and a bank account
The "Instant Transfer" method is the default method of payment (an instant electronic funds transfer from your checking account) when there are insufficient funds in your PayPal Account to complete the transfer.
If you have more than one positive currency balance on your PayPal Account
The entire amount will be funded from this balance. If the balance used to send the payment is insufficient, it may default to another currency balance depending on the amount of funds available.
You can view the "Source of Funds" on the "Check Payment Details" page. If the payment that you are sending exceeds the amount of funds in your PayPal Account, you can click the "More Funding Options" link to choose whether to draw funds from your checking account or your credit card. If you choose to draw funds from your checking account, you have the option of an "Instant Transfer" or "eCheck" transfer. Instant Transfer is backed up by either your credit card or a secondary bank account and occurs immediately, whereas the eCheck payments may take four business days to post as complete.
Please note that once a payment has been sent, it is not possible to alter
the method of funding.
You have successfully closed your account.
I had been meaning to do this for awhile, this was enough to get me off my duff and actually do it.
mstyne: real name, no gimmicks
From the sound of the post, it I figured it was at least a few grand :)
... hell he was even more honest sounding than King Mobutu from Nigeria who needed my help the other day!"
This isn't exactly the biggest scam in the universe, a drop in the bucket in-terms of the amount of money swindled in other Ebay or PayPal related transactions. (if you can even call it a transaction).
"Oh sure.. I'll just send you this $1k check in the mail and ASSUME my hardware is on the way.... what could possibly go wrong."
"He seemed like a perfectly honest person in the email!!
--Me
A few facts (more or less) for the uninitiated:
- Banks are federally insured in most countries. That means that the funds you have on deposit are insured by the government up to a certain point. Even if the bank goes bankrupt, they will pay you.
- Credit cards offer fraud protection, often by contract, more often by law, usually by both.
- Paypal is not a bank. Paypal is just a company. They have contracts with you, but ultimately they are an unregulated clearinghouse. The service they provide is easy financial transactions at a higher than average price.
- It follows that if you leave any significant amount of money in your paypal account, you are asking for trouble.
- There are other methods of payment; anyone working with more than a small amount of money should look into getting a visa merchant account, and other business banking tools. Banks WILL help you with this.
I run a small website offering adult digital content. A few weeks ago I recieved a letter stating that i had to pay paypal a total of $1500 setup fees plus $750 a year for paypal to continue processing my VIsa and Mastercard transactions. they classified me as high risk even though we have never had one customer complaint or refund request. The more questions I asked to paypal the ruder their responces became. After a week of research I finally have found that visa is charging these "high-risk" fees. Other companies I've talked to have heard nothing about mastercards fees though. I have looked around and found several other oreder processing sites that will do the job. I wonder how much profit paypal will make off these extra charges. HAs anyone else recieved this letter? Encluded is the letter in full for your readign pleasure. Notice it doesn't have paypal's protect your password sig.
-----Original Message-----
From: Setup@PayPal.com [mailto:Setup@paypal.com]
Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2002 5:25 PM
Subject: Important message from PayPal
Dear Merchant,
We would like to update you on new Visa & MasterCard regulations that affect the way Internet Payment Service Providers (IPSPs) such as PayPal conduct business. Both Visa & MasterCard require high-risk merchants to complete a registration form, pay an initial registration fee, and pay renewal fees on an annual basis (details below).
We value our Merchants and are dedicated to providing you with the high quality service to which you are accustomed. Please note that these fees are imposed by Visa and MasterCard, not by PayPal. In keeping with PayPal's core policy of not charging set-up costs and/or annual fees to our Merchants, PayPal (in contrast with many IPSPs) will not add any additional or hidden costs to these Visa & MasterCard fees.
PayPal, like all other IPSPs, must comply with the regulations. In order to assure your continued access to PayPal's transaction platform, we need you to provide the requested information by November 1st. If we do not hear from you by the close of business on November 1st, PayPal will be unable to process your transactions until all such information has been submitted.
While some IPSPs have announced that they will cease processing for non-US merchants, that is not the case with PayPal. PayPal will continue to process transactions for high-risk merchants in the United States, Canada and Europe through our existing banking arrangements in these areas. In addition, we will continue working to expand our banking relationships worldwide.
Below is a summary of the requirements for both Visa and MasterCard:
VISA:
* Visa will require an initial registration fee of $500
* Visa will require an annual renewal fee of $250
* Paypal must provide Visa with monthly sales, chargebacks and refund information on each Adult merchant.
MasterCard:
* MasterCard will require an initial registration fee of $1,000
* MasterCard will require an annual renewal fee of $500
We will be sending another email out shortly requesting the specific information we will need to bring your business into compliance with the new regulations. We will also provide instructions on fee collection.
Should you have any questions, please send an email to setup@paypal.com. We will endeavor to respond in a timely manner.
Very truly yours,
The PayPal Team
It's the same question that affects the banks: who pays who?
The bank offers the service of holding your money in a safe location so that you don't have to worry about losing it. The bank also provides money services that require a certain amount of trust - chequing, lines of credit, etc. You pay the bank for these services.
On the other hand, you are providing the bank a service too. You allow them to use your money (for many reasons) and, in exchange, the bank pays you for this service in interest (although, not very well).
A bank requires trust not only from those who bank with them but also with those third parties who interact with customers of the bank. A cheque (and credit cards, too) only works if everyone trusts that the bank system works (sure, you can overdraft on a cheque, but the bank will report that).
PayPal _is_ a bank by definition. They can skirt around the issue as much as they want to, but they are a bank. More importantly, they are a (or should be a) trust. That is, everyone _trusts_ that PayPal is honest to the core - that you can trust them to hold your money and provide the services that they offer in a legitatmite and honest way.
They are not a savings bank, however, and should not be required to fall under the same laws as a savings bank. They are not (should not) be required to provide insurance on deposits and they should be allowed to verify all transfers and 'money movement' at their discretion.
The abiword theft doesn't make sense - did this person steal a password or something? Did (s)he compromise the PayPal system in some way? If the former is true, PayPal would not, necessarily, be liable - the person who stole the password would be. If, however, there was a security compromise, then PayPal should be accountable for the money - they should put the money back and sue the thief.
--
I want to touch on something that I've read alot on sites like paypalsucks - the issue of PayPal "double-dipping" and taking funds without permission to settle accounts.
IF YOU ARE STUPID ENOUGH TO AUTHORIZE ANY COMPANY TO DIRECTLY WITHDRAWL / DEBIT MONEY FROM ANY OF YOUR ACCOUNTS THEN YOU GET WHAT YOU DESERVE.
Don't be so fucking stupid and ignorant as to give _ANY_ company the keys to your accounts. So what if you have to enter your credit card # on each transaction? Or send a cheque instead of allowing them to directly withdrawl from any bank account. Don't get me wrong, if PayPal takes your money without authorization then it's still wrong on their part - you just helped it along. By not authorizing them to save your information you catch them in a much tighter corner.
In the end, it's all about trust. If enough people stop trusting them then they will either fold up or mandate themselves under the same laws that control the banks.
Price, Quality, Time. Pick none. What, you thought you had a choice?
http://www.paypalwarning.com http://www.aboutpaypal.org/ http://www.paypalsucks.com/ Enough said
Here is the mail I sent them from the web-form email contacting option in their Help section. Feel free to use it as a template for your comments to them:
I was going to sign up for a PayPal account, but have just been informed that AbiWord has had their donation PayPal account robbed, highlighting the lack of security and customer protection within your service. The coercion to give bank account information upon payment receipt is unacceptable, and your use of debit functions rather than credit on cards that support both shows great disregard for your customers' protection offered by VISA and other credit services. Until you rethink your service with the thought of protecting your customers' transactions, and working for them to make PayPal as convenient, customer-friendly and
secure as possible, I will keep using my credit card and checks through snailmail for all online transactions.
"I like systems, their application excepted", George Sand (French)
But you can beat the crap out of a guy, steal his computer, murder his children, and charge him with copyright violation.
You can't judge a book by the way it wears its hair.
actually, ~$600 was stolen. Or approximately 75% of AbiWord's fund. Open source projects aren't excactly "rollin' in the dough", and $600 is a big loss for AbiWord. Not sure who's dumb enough, but they're definately pretty dumb. They should be able to find where he lives from the shipping address. If there are some open-source nerds within a few miles, maybe he'll be getting a visit from some of them =)
--Justin Mitchell
"2nd Place is a fancy word for losing" --Bender (Futurama)
I did some research and it turned up this posting of somebody who was also using a Hotmail account. The thief could have gotten the password from his Hotmail account and used it to gain access to his paypal account.
No, +1 Appropriate. After all the Objectivist motto is "I've got mine. Fuck the rest of you."
You can only drink 30 or 40 glasses of beer a day, no matter how rich you are.
-- Colonel Adolphus Busch
Wow! This is like a bank which was robbed by an insurance company who unlocked a door to my house to raid my filing cabinet to get a post-it note which had my password written on it for use with a hardcore midget porn website.
Wait, no its not...
There's also the c2it service, which is part of Citibank. They don't seem as free-wheeling as PayPal (They have limits on how much money you can transfer around), and they don't charge stupid percentage fees to accept money from credit cards! They will, of course, charge you for international transfers, but so does my bank if I deposit a check drawn on Canadian dollars.
On the other hand, when someone sends me money, it gets transferred to my real bank account. But the no-fees transactions of c2it are nice. That's how a real credit card works anyway, right? (Pay in full, no fees, pay partial and there's a finance charge.)
Don't pretend PayPal is a bank. It isn't. Get a real bank account, transfer it out of PayPal, and keep the money in there.
Why risk being shafted by PayPal? Use another service like c2it, and if someone wants to deal with you, then they have to get an account with them too.
this is my sig
IF YOU ARE STUPID ENOUGH TO AUTHORIZE ANY COMPANY TO DIRECTLY WITHDRAWL / DEBIT MONEY FROM ANY OF YOUR ACCOUNTS THEN YOU GET WHAT YOU DESERVE
;)
That's a common misunderstanding. I know that it seems logical that there would be some sort of a cash-withdrawal authentication system but, amazingly, there's not. Anybody that wants to, via a bank transfer, withdraw any sum of cash from your account is free to. The burden of proof is on the consumer to prove that this is not a requirement.
I know this sounds crazy, and it took a while for me to be convinced, too. My brother was billed for over a year by a local Internet service provider via monthly withdrawals of ~$20 before he noticed. (He and his wife had just gotten married, and her employer's payroll company has the same name as the local ISP, and confusion reigned.) He went to our local bank to express his outrage, and left without satisfaction. I'm friends with pretty much ever employee at this local bank, so I went down to follow up. They explained this system to me as I have to you -- there's no authentication system whatsoever. There is currently no system in place at this particular bank to block such transfers, and they know of no such system in place at other banks. Truth be told, they regarded me as a little paranoid. But I get that a lot.
Giving a company permission to withdraw from your account certainly isn't helping the situation any, but it is in no way a requirement for them to rip you off. Anybody with one of your personal checks and a little know-how can do the same thing.
-Waldo Jaquith
Abisource competitor Microsoft finds extra cash for its political lobbying fund.
It doesn't need to be their fault.
They claim to be insured. It doesn't need to be the insurance company's fault that my car gets totaled for me to get my money.
Do you get it? I rent an apartment. The group that owns the apt. is insured. If something in my apt is damaged, their insurance covers it.
If you leave something in someone else's care you expect them to take a certain amount of care with it. I don't really care if abiword's password was easy to guess. Their system shouldn't be set up to allow people to sit there and try to guess passwords. After x failed login attempts in y minutes, all login attempts should be blocked for z minutes. If this happens more than a few times in one day, it should be looked into. Also, if I leave my car unlocked, it's not okay for you to steal it and my insurance company still has to pay up if you do.
I don't wanna hear any crap about their terms of service either. While it's true that you can write whatever you want in your terms of service, it doesn't mean that those terms will hold up in court. By law, there are certain liabilities that can't be discalaimed and certain rights that can't be signed away.
Life is too short to proofread.
Ayn Rand would be proud of you, dude.
Yes, I do realize the issues at hand.
The difference is, unlike you, I expect people to take responsibility when they get ripped off because of their own stupidity. If you left your car (since you want to use that analogy) on a street corner with the keys in it and the engine running and it got stolen, I'd have no sympathy what so ever for you either. Whether stealing it is "right" or "wrong" is irrelevant...if you didn't use reasonable common sense to protect your property (take the keys out, lock the doors), you're an idiot.
If Abiword got ripped because of security hole in PayPal, PayPal should pay up, and I'll join the line of people writing nastygrams and canceling their PayPal accounts. However I have yet to see any indication that this is the case, at least in this instance.
But on the other hand, if Abiword got ripped because 147 people had the password, or the password was "sex" or something equally stupid, then Abiword should use what funds they have left to go purchase a fucking clue.
I want a new quote. One that won't spill. One that don't cost too much. Or come in a pill.
HBCI homebanking is intended to be safe. As I enter that pin on that chipcard reader it should be safe. The 768bit key should be safe too. So what's the usual way to get my money? Hack through the oppenent server and get acces for all accounts. From that point there couldn't be any fault on my side. Of course the bank or attached service should be responsible for anything by law. Otherwise the bank shouldn't tell me that smartcards systems are secure and shouldn't make them a requierement for any of their services. Damn, I wonder if there was any transaction over the internet with such a law. :-)
If I leave my car running on a street corner and it is stolen it is still a crime.
Even if the password was "password", if the guys in charge of the abiword account know who took the money, contact paypal and paypal refuses to freeze the account, then paypal is doing something wrong. If paypal refuses to acknowledge legitimate complaints of fraud, which they could have done something about but chose not to, the there may be grounds for a civil or criminal complaint.
Even the stupid have rights. That may be a good thing or a bad thing, but it's the way things are.
Life is too short to proofread.
It never ceases to amaze me that people continue to use PayPal despite the number of pissed off people that feel that they've been ripped off. If you're dumb enough to *use* it, despite their by-now-well-known policies, I hate to say it, but I don't feel entirely sympathetic if you lose money.
It sucks that an Open Source project got ripped off, but it also sucked that one of the people involved decided to use PayPal.
May we never see th
http://www.paypalwarning.com http://www.nopaypal.com Your Loss, Your Problem, but most importantly, Your PayPal. Shouldn't have used it.
A email I just fired off, this was the last straw....
:)
Recently I had a rather unpleasant experience with your service. I attempted to purchase an item from Ebay using the click through link provided; having forgotten my previous account I filled out all information required to open a new account including the Credit card that I wished to use; Apparently your procedure for error checking isn't as good as it should be, I was presented with a page that looked to be authorize/continue, I clicked it and the purchase went through, not using the new info, but using the old; So my checking account was overdrawn by several hundred dollars and I DID NOT AUTHORIZE the use of my bankcard; after this and reading about abiwords account being robbed with your *wonderful* service I choose to bank different.
Until they start acting like a REAL bank I will not use them, for folks that only use them, well my business will go elsewhere
Unix, an obscure operating system developed by bored researchers in an attempt to get a better game playing experience.
http://www.propay.com Accept VISA/MASTERCARD directly like a merchant account, charges appear on the cardholder's statement as your e-mail address, ProPay offers PayPal like P2P payment system as well:
PRO: Accept Cards directly, be your own risk management, sponsored by real bank
CON: Money transfers often take longer to process (up to a week)
http://www.payingfast.com
PRO: Money comes in the form of a Money Order in U.S. mail, kinda difficult for someone to steal it
CON: Marketed mainly for Auction users, with transaction limits up to $500, all other uses its limited to $75/transaction
--Payingfast.com Fee Schedule-- Transactions up to $20 $ 2.99 Transactions from $20 to $100 $ 3.99 Transactions over $100 $ 3.99 + 2.25% of money order amount
http://www.ecount.com
PRO: Money can be withdrawn by checking account, a virtual debit card (used online to buy goods) or via a ATM Mastercard (POS transactions and ATM withdrawl (one time card fee of $6.95) No percentage user-to-user transfer fee.
CON: Sending money or loading money to your account from a credit card is $2.00. No chargeback protection
http://www.moneyzap.com
PRO: Backed by Western Union
CON: Difficult to use, transaction approval process slow.
Because of the problem relating to the AbiWord fiasco, I will no longer allow people to use PayPal as an accepted method of payment for auctions that I run. While I know this may cause me some problems with the auctions, I'm afraid that I'm suffering from a case of "but for ____, there goes me".
So, I just wanted to let you know that I have tried to keep an open mind where PayPal was concerned. I do not feel that I can trust PayPal to accept payments relating to my life and business.
It's a shame, but I had just run my successful test group of auctions and am getting ready to roll out with a continuous stream of computer parts auctions.
Respectfully,
My name was here... Really...
"My brother was billed for over a year by a local Internet service provider via monthly withdrawals of ~$20 before he noticed."
:) I gather that a good part of the problem was the merging-of-finances that went along with getting married. It took them about a year to get everything in order, the savings and checking accounts, merging duplicate services, making one person in charge of all such things, etc. Part of the awkwardness of getting married. I'm told. :)
Sorry, if you don't look at the charges on your statement... well.. one month - I can agree - WTF are they doing? BASTARDS! But if you let it go for a year, well... sorry.
Well, that's pretty much what I told him.
-Waldo Jaquith
The name is the seller of the camera not the buyer; dom doesn't blame the seller as there is no way for him to know that the money was illicit. As to why dom left the dough in the account is lost on me.
"Yeah...it was the numbers that were irrational, not the murderous cult of vegetarians...." -- Hippasus of Metapontum
You need to do buisiness with a company, to buy their product. Realistically there is no other possible supplier for what you need, other suppliers in the market are a poor fit interms of product features that you need. This particular company only accepts payment by Visa or MasterCard (those being the two biggest players with greatest penetration), you don't have either of those cards but do have a Bank of Ethel charge card. You are one of literally thousands of customers, virtually all of whom have Visa or MasterCard and none of whom have a Bank of Ethel charge card. What are the odds that you're going to have to get a Visa or MasterCard?
That's why a lot of people use Paypal, in terms of supplier penetration they are the Visa or MasterCard of online payments. Yes, there are other online payment systems out there but few, if any, have the prevalence of Paypal. Virtually all of the sites I use on a regular basis use Paypal, most of those that didn't in the past are now adopting it as a payment method, a few use Worldpay. Many of those that do offer alternative methods will only do for for US citizens (I'm in the UK).
Until a large number of ecommerce sites use a different system, and agree on one particular system, users are going to be stuck with Paypal.
Stephen
"Don't write down to your readers, the only people less intelligent than you can't read" - Sign on Newspaper Office Wall
No, +1 Appropriate. After all the Objectivist motto is "I've got mine. Fuck the rest of you."
That's an interesting* interpretation of the position that initiation of physical force is immoral.
* I lied. It's not interesting at all. It's unoriginal and fuckwitted to the extreme.
stupid for using paypal, it's your own damn fault
The first time (and last time) I used paypal they attempted to steal $500. They ran some kind of mickey mouse security check on my account *after* the charge went through, incorrectly concluded it was fraudulent, and asked the seller to return the money. If they thought my card was used fraudulently, you'd think they'd want the money back so they could reverse the charge, right? That's not what they had in mind. They told the seller *I* was the criminal and kept the money for themselves. Not only did they ignore my requests for help, but as a delaying tactic they told the seller to tell me there was no problem with the transaction. www.paypalwarning.com has hundreds of similar stories in their "wall of shame". Amy
The problem seems to be resolved, thanks to all for their support.
2 /O ct/0462.html
:)
http://abisource.com/mailinglists/abiword-dev/0
Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 11:53:06 -0500
From: Dom Lachowicz
To: abiword-dev@abisource.com
Cc: abiword-user@abisource.com
Subject: PayPal update
A very nice and polite woman named Heather from PayPal called my home
number this morning in order to resolve this dispute between AbiWord
and PayPal.
She emailed me 2 affidavits that I must sign, notarize, and then mail
via post back to the PayPal headquarters in Omaha, Nebraska. The $581
will be credited to my account immediately thereafter. This means that
within one working week the AbiWord Fund will have its $581 back, less
the cost of postage and a notary's fee. All in all, that isn't so bad.
To the folks at PayPal, I applaud you for doing the right thing, even
if it took a while to do it. In my eyes, I feel that your company has
redeemed itself. I only pray that your company handles all future
complaints with the due-diligence that they deserve.
To all of those who have written letters of support to both me and
PayPal on my behalf, I thank you. I think that if nothing else, we've
helped raise some awareness in the general community. At the very
least, we've gotten our money back
Thanks,
Dom
---
*) The PayPal documents were multi-page MS Word documents. AbiWord
opened and printed both copies (paper output in my hands) before
OpenOffice even loaded. Abi's versions look better, to boot.
*) Omaha is also the US city where Nyorp, our "little BSD server that
could" resides.
Jun already had the money before Dom found out (you know, this modern electronic world and all). Dom did track him down and talked to him. As he explained in the letter to the lists, he doesn't fault the receiver, but PayPal and theif. Though, he also points out that he faults PayPal mostly for poor customer support, but I fault them for everything! Well, until next week when I clarify that point.
"Yeah...it was the numbers that were irrational, not the murderous cult of vegetarians...." -- Hippasus of Metapontum
Comment removed based on user account deletion
I mean, try explaining to the average American that he cannot buy your goods with his credit card, which he already has. Instead, he must send money to a "Market Maker", who will then fund his e-gold account, and then, days later, he can actually make a purchase. Hah. E-gold is great for people who already have gold, but it's a tough sell to try to get someone to open a new account, fund it, and still hold interest in your product enough to come back and purchase it after N hours/days.
"Avoid employing unlucky people - throw half of the pile of CVs in the bin without reading them." -- David Brent
Hey gcondon!
Can you recommend and books on Memes?
This is in reference to your comment to Dan Gillmor.
Thanks,
Shwag
Hey Shwag!
Check out Susan Blackmore's article "The Power of Memes" which was originally published in Scientific American. She's a little out there but it will at least get you started. She is also an editor at the online Journal of Memetics.
You're welcome,
gcondon
p.s. I think Dan Gillmor's answer was a cop-out.
In a hierarchy every employee tends to rise to his level of incompetence ... ... Work is accomplished by those employees who
in time every post tends to be occupied by an employee who is incompetent
to carry out its duties
have not yet reached their level of incompetence.
-- Dr. Laurence J. Peter, "The Peter Principle"
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