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your cubicle is a relfection of you. with the help of thinkgeek, unamerican.org, some free gifts from penguin computing, and a few local milwaukee touches, i think i've turned my messy cube into a comfy relfection of myself.

now if only the cleaning ladies would stop throwing away my java jackets so i could turn them in for free coffee...

You say that you want an IDE HD, CD-RW, the motherboard and two PCI cards. Fine. Now you want to get those into a 1U case? Well, first off, all rackmount cases are pretty custom jobs--though you can find larger (4 or 5U) cases that will support standard motherboards. The 1U motherboards are generally made custom for the particular case, etc. That's why they are so gosh darn expensive. I just really hope you aren't going to try and put your already owned equipment into a box you can buy. No sir, you'll just have to get some fiberglass or resin sheets and make it yourself.

On the other hand, if you just need to have those basic parts inside the 1U case, you may be able to buy something more ready-made. What PCI cards do you need exactly, anyway? If you just want one as an ethernet card, most 1U motherboards come with those on-board as well as other typically needed devices. In a 1U case you just don't have enough room to put much more than one PCI card off a riser inside the case--it is common in the 2U cases, though. Check out VALinux and Penguin Computing before you get yourself into too much trouble.

With all that said, you can get something close to what I think you're looking for here. You may have to cut it down, or maybe they can custom-make exactly what you want. Regardless, expect to spend lots of money and/or time on this little project of yours.

This grabbed my attention as I am a compulsive number-cruncher and I need CPUs by the bucketload, but only need one 'KVM'.
There is certainly more of a market for this kind of system nowadays. These guys aren't alone. After being bombarded with adverts proclaiming the glory of the rack-mount, I was persuaded to look at Penguin Computing only yesterday. To my dismay it is cheaper to buy a whole 1.2GHz Athlon system (including everything) than a 1GHz rack mount from Penguin.
The problem is perceived 'quality'. These rack mount systems are for professional commercial deployment. They aren't crash-a-day big-red-button machines. So in principle you end up in the 'IBM/Compaq' league of prices.
Billy number-cruncher doesn't buy IBM/Compaq PCs due to the price, so he sure ain't going to buy rack units at the same premium.
But not much of the world is Billy number-cruncher, so it probably don't matter too much to them.
THL.
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I've got 2x 1U boxes from http://www.PenguinComputing.com at home and couldn't be happier. One of them has the PCI bridge installed which hosts an Aironet 802.11b card. It ipmasq's my internal network quite well out to the world.

the prices on penguincomputing stuff are coming down, I think the base level config is ~$1200. That should be close to a celeron 600 128 MB ram 10g HD 1 ethernet card.

Customer service was awesome and they threw in a bunch of extras (tux stuffed doll, pins, more I think).

Are there any plans for Redhat to enter into agreements with PC manufacturers to provide preconfigured, supported, possibly dual boot, 'Redhat Inside' computers, in much the same way that Penguin operates in the US?
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Murky

We purchased a VA linux 2U server awhile back. Opened the thing up after we got it and wondered what all the money was for :-) Well, it was a 2U, even, and we purchased the 1U units from Penguin Computing, because of what you found: the 1U's seemed quite expensive. The VA box has been a stable platform, I must say.

The fact is, I wanted to by from VA and Penguin as a measure of support for Linux-aware companies. Probably could have gotten the things much cheaper elsewhere, but this was the first time I was made to worry about real technical support.

But I digress! As far as these half-sized 1U units go, I'd love them if they had some horsepower. That's what I need more and more these days, lots of RAM, mucho I/O throughput, and major CPU horsepower. So, I'd have to say "no" if they aren't (and the site is slashdotted, but I read in another post that they were 486-class).

Not just IBM, but SGI, CRAY, Compaq, VA and Penguin are all hardware vendors putting serious resources to making linux better.

The place I work now has four Cobalt RAQ's (2 Raq 1's, 1 Raq 2, and a Raq 4). However, before we got the Raq 4, I found the Dell PowerApp series. Personally, I was quite impressed with both the features and the price. They didn't buy it only because a promotion allowed them to buy a Raq 4 for a very nice price.

Anyway, the Dell PowerApp's come in two flavors really useful to Web hosting companies - a web hosting rack mount and a web caching rack mount. They have CD-ROM drives (unlike the Cobalts), run SCSI hard drives (unlike some Cobalts), support both RH Linux or Windows NT. It also features a web based GUI configuration system. While personally I wouldn't buy the NT version, I can easily see this as being useful to companies who want to maintain different OSes but the same hardware. They run Celeron's or Pentium III's and are priced slightly cheaper (at least when I looked at them) than their comparable Cobalts.

I really liked the floppy/CD-ROM that's built in, which makes it much easier to reinstall than the ethernet install required by the Cobalts. It also has a video, keyboard, and mouse port, so one can run X to config or their precious NT environment.

I've been noticing a lot of Cobalt-like boxes in Linux Journal, like Penguin Computing's Relion servers. Appro (never heard of them before) also offers some rack mounts. Apparantely Cobalt's popularity has really brought many competitors to the field, as they seem to be rather numerous in my Linux magazine.

Hope this helps.

What the enterprise customer does is set up an initial install with the OS and application and then clone it to new PCs with Norton Ghost. (I recently used the personal edition for $99 to back up a freshly installed dual-boot windows system and I think it's just dandy; now comprehends linux ext2 filesystems).

The problem is that if the enterprise customer bought the PC from a tradition Microsoft OEM, it will come preinstalled with Windows, and they'll be required to pay twice for it, as discussed at Paying Twice for Windows and Microsoft licensing deals confuse customers, study says.

Eventually Microsoft yielded somewhat, but only for the largest customers, as discussed in Commentary: Microsoft hasn't totally reversed its policy on fees.

This is a problem because traditional Microsoft OEMs are contractually obligated by Microsoft to install some operating system on every machine they sell. Microsoft claims that this is to cut down on piracy, but it has the added effect of discouraging people from trying out other operating systems.

The solution? Encourage the enterprise customers to purchase hardware with no operating system at all installed on it from OEMs that have no relationship with Microsoft. Then the customer can do their Ghost cloning without any worry about double license fees. This will work well both for the large enterprise customers that may have been helped by the minor adjustment in Microsoft's policy, as well as the smaller enterprise that were no helped out.

If you work for one of the traditional linux hardware vendors, I'd like to suggest to you that you view Microsoft Windows enterprise customers as a new market opportunity, not just to sell Linux to, but just to sell naked hardware to. If the hardware has no OS installed at all, there's no OS support issues to be concerned with, as there might be if you put some Linux distro on it.

Consider also that although trying to sell a machine bundled with Linux might meet resistance from a company that really does need its Windows applications to do business, selling naked hardware and emphasizing savings on Windows license fees is an easy foot in the door. Once you establish a rapport with the customer you'll have a better chance to upsell them to Linux.

Also consider that if Microsoft OEMs start losing significant hardware sells to folks like VA Linux Systems, Penguin Computing, Tuxtops and the screwdriver shops, they'll be a little more aggressive about getting Microsoft to back down on requiring an OS to be installed.

Of course, an alternative to the traditional OEM vendors is to just preinstall Debian and include a clause in the contract stating that the preinstall OS software is not supported by anyone. That just pretty much screws Microsoft up the Yin-Yang.

We had a need for a fairly low-end print server. Something that didn't have to have RAID or even SCSI hard drives on it. Just needs to drive a few department printers. We put together a Penguin box on their web site for about $2400 which will MORE than do the job. In fact, at that price I could have two of them with hot failover software for less money than I was seeing for the low end VA rackmounts. Oh yeah the Penguin is a 1U so I could fit two of the penguins in the space of 1 VA rackmount.

Don't forget, also, that Chris DiBona has been seen in the past on Slashdot slamming Penguin, slinging mud at Sam Ockman (president of Penguin), and in general acting very unprofessionally towards his competition. While Penguin may be in the #2 slot behind VA in terms of funding, they're #1 in terms of ethics and professional conduct in my book. I never once saw Mr. Ockman flaming VA or Mr. DiBona on /. forums.

Penguin Computing will sell you a 1U rackmount PC, ATX, with an all-in-one motherboard for $1600. Yeah, that's a big pile of change, but it's a pretty complete system. Add a NIC (or a dual or quad-port NIC) to the one supplied PCI slot, and you're off and running.

If you want something that takes very little space, then you should check out Advantech's Biscuit PC boards. For instance, there's the "PCM-9570/S" which is a "Socket 370 CeleronTM/Pentium® III Processor SBC with AGP, VGA/LCD, Ethernet and SCSI". That's probably pretty pricy, and it only has one ethernet interface, but it does have a PCI slot. On a somewhat cheaper note, there's the "PCM-5862E/L" (Pentium® Processor with MMX Technology SBC with Audio, VGA/LCD and 100Base-T Ethernet) which also has a PCI slot. Get a one-slot PCI riser card, so you can angle the PCI card over the board, slap a 180MMX or something on it (They're cheap) and a couple 16mb EDO SIMMs, and you're in buisness.

The downside to building a biscuit PC is that you need a cable connection kit (About $100), a box to put it in (It can be hard to find one that looks nice), and a power supply. The advantech boards are nice in that you can get away with supplying them only VCC and ground (+5 and 0 volts) and bang, you're done. Add a laptop IDE drive, and you're in the biz.

Incidentally... Penguin Computing has another Tux graphic rendered with Quake-style armor:

http://www.penguincom puting.com/graphics/gamingtux800x600.jpg

Penguin Computing will most likely not support the whole DeCSS case (atleast not in the near future). When you go to configure a system they give you the option of adding a DVD-ROM drive, but when you click on the link for more info (here), they give you this bit of info:

"Please note: There is currently no support under Linux for watching DVD movies."

Maybe they want to support it, but they are afraid of lawsuits.

Who installed all that "free" software? How long did it take?

Any monkey can install some of the newer distros.

Who retrained all the users to use a new O/S they aren't familiar with?

Nobody, because KDE is enough of a Windows clone that most users don't care.

How long did that take and how much did that lost productivity cost?

Very little.

Who handles the support questions when the software doesn't work (it sure isn't the "manufacturer" now, is it?)

<disclaimer content="they're not paying me for this plug"> VA Linux Systems or Penguin Computing. They sold you the workstations; they support the workstations. </disclaimer>

You are right, 256 MB is a little weak. My personal computer has 384 MB of RAM... The motherboard they used for the test was an Iwill DCA200. This board will support up to 2 GB of RAM. I think the reason that they only used 256 MB was because that much RDRAM memory runs about $1,100. Peguin Computing has an 8-way Xeon system that will support up to 32 GB of ECC SDRAM memory. I am sure there are other x86 based machines like this, but I don't know of any off hand.

True, Linux can never be B1 (or any level) certified itself (neither can NT be C2 certified, contrary to Microsoft's marketing). It can, however be B1 ready, with all the features needed to produce a B1-rated system. Then, VA Linux Systems or Penguin Computing can produce and sell a truly B1 (or C1, for that matter) certified system. That would be a very nice thing to happen.

As for A1, I don't think any modern operating system can reach that level. The proof requirements for A1 certification would be prohibitively expensive for anything but the most scaled down system.

----

It seems like the author feels that most of the people flame him because they're in some kind of Total World Domination frame of mind. Are there other Linux fans out there who are happy just to have a product they enjoy using? People who don't care about world domination don't have to talk about what Windows apps will run on WINE and such and such. We're happy with the apps we have, and in my experience, people are willing to learn new apps as long as they're intuitive (like the MacOS products). From my experience I've seen new computer users do quite well on pre-installed Linux machines or Computer Lab UNIX machines as long as the applications make themselves fast and intuitive. My friend in Santa Cruz bought a pre-installed system from Penguin and she installed Applix by herself and figured out how to use it (I believe on the Gnome desktop). She had a copy of Windows on-hand just in case Linux was too intimidating but never had to put it in the CD-ROM. Maybe if Linux is intuitive in this way and becomes even more intuitive and easy (pre-installs, and easy to learn applications/desktops) nobody needs to sell Linux or bash Microsoft and Linux can stand on its own.

Justin

I dunno where you get all these pessimists bashing Linux Demo Day (probably the same bunch that didn't understand why the Casio MP3 watch was cool)... doesn't anyone remember The Great Linux Revolt of '98 for the Win98 launch? That was cool and got plenty of media attention.

A little background. I currently work for Intel/Linux.com (sponsord by VA), but I am giving my honest opinon. My views don't necessarily represent the views of Linux.com or Intel. =p This information is from experience at UCLA Medical with image reconstruction machines, which I hope closely resemble what you plan to do with your machines. I do recommend PIII-733s because they support SMPs. Athlons, though a great chip, don't run in SMP mode yet. Having two PIIIs in a box will make your data processing twice as fast if they have multiple data sets. We tested similar machines (in terms of cost) on a dataset that required both floating point and integer preformance, and found the Intel machine to be faster than Sun's offerings. Since they are only processing datasets, there is no need for "Enterprise Reliability." If something breaks, load the dataset again, and run it on a different machine. No harm done. I would recommend getting 2gB of RAM. Nothing like keeping the CPU fed with data to keep it happy. Having enough memory for the job comes in second, right after cpu speed in these situations. The RIMMs however, should be avoided at the moment because they haven't been throughly testing in production environments yet, and neither are the 840 chipsets, but if you're feeling lucky, by all means do it, and post back to /. with your experiences. =) You can drop the UltraIDE, since you won't need them. It will only add cost. Stay with Ultra Wide SCSI since SCSI-160 isn't fully tested or widely available. You video card is fine, but if you're really looking to save another 100 bux, turn it into a S3 (w/ 8mB of RAM to handle the resolution of a 21"). You can likewise drop the DVD/PCI Soundcard. There is no need for them in this type of machine. Forget the powered speakers. You can drop your LS120 disks too. Also, the 3com905b network card performs poorly under linux, and is outright unsupported in most cases. Other 3com PCI 100/10bt network cards are preferred, or the Intel Ethernet Express Pro 100/10 series network cards. If you need to transfer data sets, use the network. If you're looking for full service w/o the hassle, I've had great experiences with Penguin Computing and VA Linux.

• Penguin Computing
• VA Linux Systems
• ASL Workstations
• IBM

The first three companies are pure Linux. The fourth is getting good advice on Linux systems from people in the community.

You absolutely want as little variation on your hardware as possible with these machines. This will up the price of each machine. However, it will also make them easier to maintain, repair, upgrade and find drivers for. The additional expense pays off in the long run, if you are going to deploy thousands of these things. Make this a condition of your contract.

Personally, I say go with ASL, if only because they're nice guys.

NB- I don't work for any of these companies, even (as far as I know) indirectly.

The 32-bit Pentium seems to be at the end of its useful life and the Itanium is still years away.

Actually, Intel's Itanium processor is scheduled for mid-2000. You can snag some product information and datasheets here. I believe Intel plans on releasing and/or supporting 32-bit products into as late as 2002 if not longer, but I haven't checked their CPU roadmap in a while. However, IMHO, 64-bit is a safe investment considering it will soon be the de facto standard. This is definitely something to put into serious consideration, and you should definitely consult your coworkers and review your organization's future plans and needs.

Unfortunately, every single vendor and VAR I talk to actually laughs at me and asks me questions like "Can I ask you why you are not considering an industry standard NT/Intel-based solution?" and "Can you really count on Linux to survive the next few years? Those socialist coders are going to get bored and figure out they can make more money in the real world eventually." (actual conversations) :-(

If you're looking for some places which support Linux, I've found VA Linux Systems to have excellent customer support and very reasonable pricing. I hear that Penguin Computing is excellent as well. And also from my experience, I've found Firstsource.com to be very helpful and resourceful as well. Though I haven't tapped them for any Linux solutions yet, CDW has a rock-solid reputation, and superb customer support.

In addition, Dell, IBM, Hewlett-Packard, and Compaq all offer their own solutions, but some of their flagship products contain propietary hardware which increases the price dramatically for everything. However I do not say to avoid them, as they offer excellent products and support (varies), but keep that in consideration.

And I don't know about you, but I, personally, would never purchase ANYTHING from an organization that mocks my evaluated decision. I would be appalled at said treatment.

You've made a wise decision to tap the Slashdot community for assistance. I hope I was of help, if not, I'm positive that my peers will be.
--

...that Penguin Computing still sells AMD systems; Compaq sells Alphas running Linux; Apple still sells PowerPC systems that are Linux-compatible; and that you can still by SPARC stations from Sun or for cheap from many auction houses and hardware resellers.


The Kulturwehrmacht

Web browsers can indeed be 100% GPL>.. my team of developers is working on one as we speak.. and when we have something ready to show, we'll turn it over to the open source community to see what we can do to make Guido even better.

Justin Cheung

Founder and Vice-Penguin, Gnuidea Software
Open Source Dude, Penguin Computing
http://www.penguincomputing.com

Bill, I'm heading to bed so I can get some sleep before Latin class (meets monday, 11AM pacific, right now it's a quarter to 5AM :) hehe.. so I hope to talk to you later... you can always e-mail me if you want: justin@penguincomputing.com

Take care,

Justin, of Gnuidea Software

Right on... It's like that a lot and even happened to me once... I got into this whole "red hat is too big and will squash the other distros" mode and supported Debian for a while... Now, after Red Hat 6.0 and Red Hat giving GNOME (100% GPL as a core principle, not an afterthought) the chance to grab a foothold, I'm in full support of Red Hat, and will boycott any KDE-only distribution (i.e. Caldera and potentially Corel). Freedom of choice without bloat (sorry SUSE, 5CDs full of crap isn't going to cut it for "selection") is what i want, that's why I use Red Hat and Turbolinux (which will include GNOME and Enlightenment on their next workstation release)...

Justin

Waimea Algorithm Is My Encryption Algorithm

Thanks for the compliment :)

Justin

I forgot to add one thing: I personally (this is my own politics at hand) am developing a text-based KDE uninstall utility called "Special K"... it will completely remove KDE core files, Qt files, and all the rest of the crap that is KDE... Special-K will be available on the Gnuidea website soon... Keep an eye out for it!

Later gaters,

Justin (of Gnuidea Software and Penguin Computing)

As interesting as this may sound, I was looking at purchasing Linux servers for a new company I am starting. I went to Dell's site looking for the Linux support on the servers, but I'd have to say that it wasn't very easy to figure out just exactly what was supported. An example is that they have RAID configs for their boxes and list their RAID card that they use. The problem is that I couldn't cross reference that RAID card with the Linux Hardware Compatibility list. This may just be a documentation issue, but I didn't want to risk forking X thousand dollars only to find that the RAID card isn't supported, but standard Adaptec SCSI is. To make a long story short, I'm purchasing my Rack mountable, redundant power supplied, hot swappable drive server from Penguin Computing. :) This isn't a plug, but I thought this might be helpful info for those of you that are in the market.

Btw, for those that have taken an interest in Microworkz from reading Slashdot, be sure to read the warrenty (anti-warrenty?) VERY CAREFULLY. The Microworkz sales staff will explain up and down that their machines are Y2k Compliant but when it comes to providing things in writting they state that they do NOT COVER "damages occurring to hardware and software as a result of the manufacturer's failure to comply with 'Year 2000' requirements." I am sure there are plenty of Comtrade customers that will testify to the fact that it doesn't matter what a sales person says over the phone, it is what is in writting that matters. Companies like Penguin Computing do have a customer friendly Year 2000 statement. But there is always the issue of if you have the time to deal with getting RMAs. And if you think that just because a company says they have tested their systems as being Y2K compliant that means it is a non-issue, think again. Gateway 2000 sales has made several promises yet several computers they shipped May of 1999 tested postive for the Crouch-Echlin Effect (and it effects Linux). GW2k still has yet to get back to us with the BIOS upgrade they promised over a *MONTH* ago! Over 12 employee hours lost sitting on the phone (mostly on hold) with GW2k just so they could save a couple cents by using an unbuffered real time clock on the motherboard. Unfortantly, several of the AMD resellers aren't making wise choices in what motherboards to use either.

Penguin computing sells an 8-way Xenon system..... Berck

The Linux hardware vendors are some of the best corporate citizens I've seen in any industry. They wholeheartedly support the Linux community, because they realise that without it they wouldn't exist in the first place. I like the fact that Penguin Computing is providing servers for sites such as Linux Online, 32 Bits Online, and LinuxToday. Then you've got VA Linux Systems taking the time to ensure Linux.com doesn't get run over by corporate interests, but instead makes it a community interest site. Not to mention hosting Debian, GNU, and Themes.org. You've got to hand it to the Linux Store for pushing the envelope for low-cost systems.

The Linux hardware vendors have shown a dedication to the community and customers that is rarely seen in this generally cruel marketplace. I sincerely hope they keep it up.

Don't know where PDG got theirs but check out Penguin Computing. And no, I'm not with the company. I'm just a happy customer.

The problem is that when we (Penguin Computing) approached Toshiba and all major manufacturers, they were unaware of the problem. Nina More, the Toshiba CA field manager, which covers all the CompUSAs, Fry's, etc in this state, said she has rarely heard a cry for refund...in fact she never heard of Bennett's refund in Australia!

More attention should be given to the manufacturers because when under enough consumer pressure, they can choose not to sign unfair agreements with Microsoft or in turn initiate trade lawsuits.

More Microsoft Refund Day attendees should talk to Nina Moore and realize it's easier to work with her then Microsoft. Why complain to Microsoft...has Microsoft ever given in to anything...not any market pressure, not consumer rights groups, nor the government.

In so far as Microsoft, let them screw the government and the government will eventually screw with them. Why get involved? I think we all understand how Microsoft plays the game, we should not choose to participate?

For consumers and open source advocates, I believe it's more worthwhile educating more evolved companies. The postings regarding how the manufacturers haven't budge is absolutely false. I make computing systems for a living and talk to these people everyday, and they really are unaware of the market for Linux or the requests for refunds.

If you have bought a notebook from Toshiba or any of the manufacturers, please let them know. If you e-mail me, I will provide you with instructions on contacting them.

Allison Huynh

Educating the Manufacturers

The problem is that when we (Penguin Computing) approached Toshiba and all major manufacturers, they were unaware of the problem. Nina More, the Toshiba CA field manager, which covers all the CompUSAs, Fry's, etc in this state, said she has rarely heard a cry for refund...in fact she never heard of Bennett's refund in Australia!

More attention should be given to the manufacturers because when under enough consumer pressure, they can choose not to sign unfair agreements with Microsoft or in turn initiate trade lawsuits.

More Microsoft Refund Day attendees should talk to Nina Moore and realize it's easier to work with her then Microsoft. Why complain to Microsoft...has Microsoft ever given in to anything...not any market pressure, not consumer rights groups, nor the government.

In so far as Microsoft, let them screw the government and the government will eventually screw with them. Why get involved? I think we all understand how Microsoft plays the game, we should not choose to participate?

For consumers and open source advocates, I believe it's more worthwhile educating more evolved companies. The postings regarding how the manufacturers haven't budge is absolutely false. I make computing systems for a living and talk to these people everyday, and they really are unaware of the market for Linux or the requests for refunds.

If you have bought a notebook from Toshiba or any of the manufacturers, please let them know. If you e-mail me, I will provide you with instructions on contacting them.

Allison Huynh

Educating the Manufacturers

Check out Penguin Computing. It is a startup owned by one of the former VP's of VA Research. He must have seen a lot of places where VAR could improve because Penguin is a top notch reseller. Their systems are designed for Linux and Linux only (not hybrid NT/Linux machines like VAR pushes).

How did I find them? Spent weeks trying to get a machine out of VAR. Lots of broken promises. Cancelled my order and it was filled within a few days (custom build) by Penguin.

No, I don't work for them or have any other financial interests. Just a happy customer.

http://www.dibona.com/

>2 Sam Ockman

http://www.penguincomputing.com/

>3 Mark Stone

http://shell.nanospace.com/~markst/

All members of the infamous...

Silicon Valley Linux User Group

Buy from Penguin Computing or VA Research. These two companies have done much to support the Linux community, including sponsorship of slashdot. When you buy a PC through one of these two companies you are skipping the Microsoft tax (although VA Research will put it on if you really want it... and Penguin Computing refuses to touch Windows) not to mention they will in turn give back to the Linux community a bit of the prosperity that the community brought to them.

Dell could care less about Linux. Them, Gateway 2000, Micron, you name it... all these guys have been in it just for the $$$ and could care less about making Linux better for you and me. All these years they snubbed us. Support companies that were early adopters and help support a new world order based on Linux.

Call Sam Ockman at Penguin Computing. He's built some serious boxes for us the likes of which you won't likely see on their web site. They've been much better to work with than VA Research has been for us (then again, we only bought one order from VAR and ever since have been buying hardware from the other guys).