Domain: realclimate.org
Stories and comments across the archive that link to realclimate.org.
Comments · 1,734
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Re:US vs World
The classic paper on this is: Jones PD, Groisman PYa, Coughlan M, Plummer N, Wangl WC, Karl TR (1990) Assessment of urbanization effects in time series of surface air temperatures over land. Nature 347:169-172. This conclusion was refreshed by Easterling '97.
The IPCC TAR stated:
These results confirm the conclusions of Jones et al. (1990) and Easterling et al. (1997) that urban effects on 20th century globally and hemispherically averaged land air temperature time-series do not exceed about 0.05C over the period 1900 to 1990 (assumed here to represent one standard error in the assessed non-urban trends).
There have been a couple of recent papers that Steve has been looking at, but as his site is down I don't have the citations handy (and I don't know them off-hand).
You should be careful with realclimate.org. While the site is climate science by climate scientists, it is characterized by evangelism rather than objectivity. This isn't to say their evangelism isn't often scientific and correct, but they do distort, obscure, and ignore information that hurts their evangelism.
As it happens, Steve started his blog climateaudit.org after he was subject to smear campaigns on realclimate.org over a couple of papers he published demolishing the statistical techniques used in MBH'98. Judge for yourself: MM'05, rc1, rc2, Recap
Steve's papers were ultimately vindicated by a NAS panel review. A copy of which Steve posted on his website: Wegman Report
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Re:US vs WorldWho dismissed UHI as being non-existent? It is taken into account when developing global temperature trends!
See realclimate for a complete discussion of the subject.
The global trend is a robust dataset, and the pattern is scientifically explainable and is not correlated with urban areas, which is what you would expect if it was a UHI effect.
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Re:Goethermal Reduces CO2
1) If you think that CO2 is causing it to flood in South Asia, you are thinking more from superstition than science. 2) Net antarctic ice is accumulating, not melting. 3) If you think CO2 is making hurricanes larger or track towards major cities, you have a screw loose.
You could have saved your time if you'd just written: bullshit, bullshit and bullshit, since it's all the same anyway. No, you can't point to any one storm and say it happened because of global warming. But warmer temperatures absolutely do worsen tropical storms, and the earth has been warming. And RealClimate shot down the "thickening Antarctic ice" canard three years ago.
You global warming deniers are the new flat earthers. But at least flat earthers didn't screw over the rest of the planet. If you are also so confident it isn't happening, move to a nice coastal area in Malaysia and stay there. -
Re:Scientific vs. unscientific
Well said.
Just for the record, the "urban heat island" is a well documented phenomena that has already been accounted for, but there is always room for improvement in the estimation of such a difficult bias to measure. -
Re:You forgot to mention Bush three times...
"Michael Crichton IS/WAS a real doctor."
In my mind that makes the political interference even more obvious than it already is/was.
If an ex-MD can be invited and introduced to the senate as a "climate expert" based on a work of FICTION he created, why does the government's top doctor and others such as Jim Hansen (climatologist and head of NOAA) get sidelined/censored? -
Re:Story of my life
I have read that before and yes it does have some points raised by "skeptics".
"but the human contribution itself has not been quantitatively assessed
Checkout the attribution diagram, figure SPM-2 in the IPCC 2007 SPM.....seems wikipedia got it wrong on a contraversial subject!
Also check out this site, you will find Pielke often comments on articles and is a hand full of skeptics who does have some valid points but tends to view everything in a political light.
Also the "dispute" you quote is about the effects of AGW on specific hurricane basins, they are not disputing AGW itself. The fact remains that Gore is reporting the "best science available" not "every opinion available", there is no doubt that as the globe warms the climate will become more turbulent (anyone could "guess" that much from basic physics).
Al Gore does not "put me off", since I am not from the US his politcs are irrelevant to me. If you want to attack the IPCC then why don't you start with a real problem such as the "missing methane". However if you want to discredit it's scientific methods and conclusions by portraying it as an adgenda driven political body then I am simply not interested in what you have to say because I've heard it all before. -
Re:The problem with the sky is falling argument...I don't think it was ever quite as hysterical (for want of a better description) as the current global warming carry-on, but global cooling was being promoted by several apparently prominent people in much the same was that global warming is being promoted now. A new theory "being promoted by several apparently prominent people" is a far cry from "being promoted by the vast majority of the climate science community after decades of research", which is how global warming is being "promoted" now.
Despite the media scare, global cooling was never a widely accepted hypothesis, and those who proposed a new ice age cycle would start didn't claim that it was going to start in anything less than hundreds or thousands of years. Those who believed in global cooling via atmospheric pollutants also admitted that they didn't know enough about emissions to tell whether they would be outweighed by CO2 warming. (More here and here.)
This is in stark contrast to the current state of research of global warming, which has been studied intensively for more than 30 years and is now almost universally accepted within the climatological community (more here). -
Re:As they say...
If you're going to post the IPCC numbers on sea level rise, you ought to know that when the report was released, there was a HUGE outcry from people who did science on the subject of sea level rise because they felt the numbers in the report vastly underestimated the expected rise. RealClimate has an extensive discussion of the numbers, here: http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/200
7 /03/the-ipcc-sea-level-numbers/ -
Re:So Thermodynamics Nazis...
Basically, our atmosphere has so much water vapor, that every frequency of IR that can be absorbed by it is already fully absorbed.
Sigh.
No, no, no! The bands are not saturated - only the gasses at the top of the atmosphere count and they are not even close to being saturated because they are so thin. -
Re:So Thermodynamics Nazis...
Basically, our atmosphere has so much water vapor, that every frequency of IR that can be absorbed by it is already fully absorbed.
Sigh.
No, no, no! The bands are not saturated - only the gasses at the top of the atmosphere count and they are not even close to being saturated because they are so thin. -
Re:So Thermodynamics Nazis...
Basically, our atmosphere has so much water vapor, that every frequency of IR that can be absorbed by it is already fully absorbed.
Sigh.
No, no, no! The bands are not saturated - only the gasses at the top of the atmosphere count and they are not even close to being saturated because they are so thin. -
Re:Planting?
No; water vapor is worse at trapping infrared.
Sure, it causes most of our warming, but that's because we have so much of it, and it enters and leaves the atmosphere so quickly (average=10 days) that it functions as little more than an amplifier for the greenhouse effect of other gasses; it is a "feedback" effect rather than a "forcing" effect. -
Re:The cult of Global Warming
The first of my heresies says that all the fluff about global warming is grossly exaggerated. Here I am opposing the holy brotherhood of twilight model experts and the crowd of diluted citizens that believe the numbers predicted by their models. Of course they say I have no degree in meteorology and I am therefore not qualified to speak.
Cry me a river.
But I have studied their climate models and know what they can do. The models solve the equations of fluid dynamics and do a very good job of describing the fluid motions of the atmosphere and the oceans. They do a very poor job of describing the clouds, the dust, the chemistry and the biology of fields, farms and forests. They do not begin to describe the real world that we live in.
Show me the evidence.
The real world is muddy and messy and full of things that we do not yet understand. It is much easier for a scientist to sit in an air-conditioned building and run computer models than to put on winter clothes and measure what is really happening outside in the swamps and the clouds. That's why the climate model experts end up believing their own models.
Ad hominem. And also, just plain wrong
There's no doubt that parts of the world are getting warmer, but the warming is not global.
I'm not saying the warming doesn't cause problems, obviously it does. Obviously we should be trying to understand it. I'm saying that the problems are being grossly exaggerated. They take away money and attention from other problems that are much more urgent and important. Poverty, infectious diseases, public education and public health. Not to mention the preservation of living creatures on land and in the oceans.
Sorry, did anyone say that these issues were zero sum?
He also worked out a way to reverse global warming quite cheaply.
Possibly. It's a little more complicated than that.
I'm not even particularly opinionated on the issue of global warming, but this guy's said nothing, i repeat nothing in the above paragraph to contribute, other than his own opinion. THAT's why his first sentence is so defensive.
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Re:The cult of Global Warming
Happily for us, according to a Canadian climate scientist, based on the sunspot cycles, we're due for global cooling to start in 2020, so I wouldn't sweat it.
Sadly, this has also been refuted many times. -
Re:Threat to democracy?He might have more expertise in these matters than you know.
He's also a politician, and he quotes Michael Crichton as an authority. He can't find an actual scientist to quote? Of course, they're all part of the Vast Anti-carbon Conspiracy. So can we rebut "State of Fear" with "The Day After Tomorrow"? At least the latter didn't pretend it was anything but fantasy.
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Mann Hockey Stick
Why do you keep calling it a fakery, when its the "debunkers" who were ultimately debunked?
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Re:Ah, a nice flame war
Look - I think you're probably completely serious. My father in law is a brilliant guy, a good guy, but watches Fox and is misinformed. He gets sucked into the Punch and Judy of the fox pundit shows, and unfortunately picks up some really shaky data.
The best resource I've found on the web manned by actual climate scientists is Realclimate.org. Like me, you'll probably discount it as an advocacy organization at first, but look at the qualifications of the writers on the blog, and read the actual articles. It's really, really solid. It's not equivocal about the existence of man-made climate change, but nor are climate scientists. -
Re:It's fragile, and about to break
Your search - "study questions temperature proxy data" - did not match any documents.
Your search - canada "climate proxy is wrong" - did not match any documents.
When searching without quotes, I got a bunch of unrelated stuff about Canada and proxies, and these:
http://roamnomore.blogspot.com/2005/08/climate-cha nge-denialism-is-dead-long.html
http://www.realclimate.org/index.php?p=153By the way, which little god of mine are you talking about? The one Nietzsche "killed"?
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Re:It's fragile, and about to break
"Many people claim it is the sun. Who do you believe?"
The question is not "who" but "what", I belive that science has the most usefull answers. The link I pointed to represents one of the most rigourous scientific investigations ever undertaken.
People who say "the sun did it" obviously have not looked at figure SPM2 in the 2007 IPCC SPM. I thank you for the links and offer one of my own that I have found very informative. It is also worth noting that the site is run by world renowned climatologists who have had some input into the IPCC reports, so what you get is "straight from the horses mouth" so to speak. -
Re:sanctions are inevitable
We're talking about trade policy, and, wow, you managed to work in global warming, "the media" and George Soros. I salute you, winger.
Anyhoo.. you're totally wrong, or at least, at odds with the facts, since facts, truth, and debate in general occupy some fuzzy, extracranial space for people like you. The European Union numbers 500 million, or 2/3 larger than Am'rca, so there would most certainly be people to buy the damn imports. Europe's trade deficit with China is close to that of the United States, as you will find in this report by the Congressional Research Service dated January 4 of this year. Or you could just Google "china trade balance" and read the first 60 or so things that come up, it's all there.
Which brings me to what really tickles me pink about you, and others like you, viz. where do you get off being so self-righteous when you've obviously spent so little time actually reading primary source material and forming your own thoughts? Bill O'Reilly's talking points do not an argument make. Take that whole diatribe in the middle there, about global warming. Literally every point you make has been thoroughly refuted, and I'm not talking in a polemic, debatable fashion--you can go look these things up for yourself, and anyone who takes the time to do so (as I have) has to admit what you're saying is bunk. The 1970s Ice Age "consensus" consists of about 20 publications, almost all of them in the popular (not scientific) press. The notion that the medieval warm period compares to what we're seeing now is flat wrong. Solar radiation has been constant for the last 30 years, during which time the most significant warming has been recorded, so no correlation there. There is scant evidence that Mars is warming, and even if it is, human activity is a much more convincing explanation for our own warming. Etc. etc. etc.
That's not to say that convincing counterarguments to the anthropogenic warming hypothesis cannot be made, but these are not those, and you do not know them. Your slavish repetition of these canards makes it clear that you're not in the game for any sort of self-enlightenment, or desire to get at the truth, but simply to score points and massage your bruised ego by screaming at the George Soroses of the world. You're shouting at cars. Why? A mind is a terrible thing to waste. -
Re:science
Because some don't buy into the media hype
Nope instead they buy the pseudo-science and bunkum of mockumentaries such as 'The Great Global Warming Swindle.'
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Re:Self-policing
My favorite(lately):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Solar_Activity_ Proxies.png
That page has been linked in comments at real climate:
http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2005 /07/the-lure-of-solar-forcing/
(that article addresses the solar flare activity, but not the Be proxy) -
Re:Now hold on here
My understanding was that the lead authors have final say on whether a change is acceptable or not. Mind you, the all night sessions just before the release of the summary due to Chinese and US delegates trying to water down some of the conclusions might have lead to lead authors finally giving in from sheer exhaustion, but they do have to give the final ok. See realclimate for a more complete discussion, but this also jibes with what those of my colleagues who were contributors to the IPCC draft chapters have told me...
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Lindzen is the most credible skeptic
First, his funding - yes, he gets a lot of money from public sources, undercutting the argument that the real reason that so many prominent climatologists support global warming theories is to get funding. As far as I know, he no longer gets money from oil and coal interests.
Secondly, his intentions - I believe that Lindzen is basically a good, honest scientist who believes what he says. I also think he's a regular human being (as are all scientists) who is capable of fooling himself. You can witness that by looking at some of his seemingly (to me, anyways) self-contradictory comments, but I'll get to those later.
Now, let's address the actual article in question:
There has been a net warming of the earth over the last century and a half, and our greenhouse gas emissions are contributing at some level. Both of these statements are almost certainly true.
OK, so my request was to find one climatologist who disagrees with the statement, "that we are most likely contributing significantly to global warming." He obviously covered the "most likely" part with "almost certainly true". So, that leaves the "contributing significantly". Obviously, "at some level" doesn't quite rise to that level. Neither does it rule it out, so I'll keep going. After this quote, he then goes on for a while highlighting our uncertainty in various predictions, but that doesn't address my original statement. I'm talking about the present in that statement. OK, I've read the rest of the article, and it's pretty much the same. He talks about what we don't know and what we didn't know (but now do). So, he's used the convenient phrase "at some level" to keep from saying exactly what that level is. This article neither supports nor refutes my original point.So, I've decided to go back through some previous things he's written, and I basically find the same pattern: he admits that humans are most likely contributing to global warming, but he neglects to even speculate as to how much. Why do you think that is? Or, if you think I've mischaracterized him, can you find any evidence to the contrary?
Finally, I'd like to stress that I am not a climatologist. However, other climatologists have critiqued his Newsweek article.
Finally, something about Lindzen that does make me ponder. Recently, the BBC attributed this to him:
This attitude has strong backing from Richard Lindzen, Professor of Meteorology at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, who describes Exxon Mobil as "the only principled oil and gas company I know in the US."
Up until recently, Exxon Mobil was the only oil and gas company funding global warming "skeptics", to the best of my knowledge. They've very recently claimed to have discontinued that process. -
Re:FUD
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Re:Ugh - not again.
Didn't see the debunking of the global warming on Mars and the moons of the outer planets in our solar system occuring now too.
Oh, I don't know, maybe if you'd read the article you'd have found it?
RealClimate has also debunked that particular talking point.
"The shrinkage of the Martian South Polar Cap is almost certainly a regional climate change, and is not any indication of global warming trends in the Martian atmosphere. Colaprete et al in Nature 2005 (subscription required) showed, using the Mars GCM, that the south polar climate is unstable due to the peculiar topography near the pole, and the current configuration is on the instability border; we therefore expect to see rapid changes in ice cover as the regional climate transits between the unstable states." -
Re:WTF
Isolated the individual myths debunks could or not be strong enough... but combined is another matter. I.e. in the one that explains why CO2 is one of the most important greenhouses gases. Some of the other "global forcings" come and go, like with i.e. water vapour, but the CO2 takes time to be reabsorbed. The problem is maybe not just now, but what will happen if we keep going in the same way. Reading all as a whole could help.
You know, no single water drop can be made responsible for the flood, i agree that maybe CO2 alone, or even the one produced by humans alone couldnt make a big disaster, but in a somewhat self-balanced system if you keep pushing in the wrong direction things like points of no return happens, and worst case scenarios are always ugly.
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Re:Predicting? How about controlling?
~100 years of high SOLAR output seems to work...
Fixed that for you.
Except, of course, that solar output hasn't been higher.
Why do I get the feeling that this won't put a dent in your delusion that you're more of an expert in this subject than the climatologists who actually study it for a living? -
Re:Oy vey gevault.
Given that I have personal access to two of the other people contained
I don't believe you.
and given that they're not reacting at all in the fashion Wikipedia claims,
Why should anyone believe the ramblings of some anonymous disturbed poster on slashdot over the people's public pronouncements?
Carl Wunsch is well known for being excitable.
Incredible that you should call ad hominem on someone else on this thread.
(snip some very naive confused ramblings based on misinformation)
can you point to any actual science that shows any good reason for the CO2 to have that lag
There are some papers referenced here.
Cite data or stop feigning familiarity.
I'm not feigning familiarity. I am not much more familiar with the science than you are, but the conclusions of the experts in the field who have studied the data are clear. -
Re:Here we go againHmm, Now I am wondering why the increases COsub2 FOLLOWED the periods of global warming in the past according to the ice core samples. There is a mutual positive feedback between temperature and CO2 over time scales of about a millennium. In hundreds of years we will probably see a lagged non-anthropogenic CO2 rise resulting from our current global warming, by similar mechanisms. See more here.
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Re:Oy vey gevault.
Global warming on Mars? No.
A few points that the simplistic "orb o' fire" theory overlooks:
1) Total solar irradiation hasn't increased noticeably since we started taking satellite measurements.
2) Mars is not Earth.
2a) We don't understand Martial climate nearly as well as Earth climate.
2b) We don't have global temperature measurements or global CO2 measurements for Mars.
2c) Martian atmosphere is much thinner than Earth atmosphere, leading to lower thermal inertia.
3) Regional changes (in this case at the poles) do not necessarily reflect global changes.
This is not a good talking point to be flinging about. -
Re:Give me a break...
I've discussed the data and the theories with a number of people. It's useful to remember that global warming caused by CO2 is just a theory, based on two observations: First, the world is warming up. Second: observations of prior world temperature changes commensurate with observations of CO2 levels, and notably higher CO2 with higher temperatures. There is some evidence that CO2 is a greenhouse gas, however there are much stronger greenhouse gases (i.e. methane) which we now produce at industrial levels.
Let's add a couple of observations to your "Big Two":
3) We know that humans are responsible for the increase in atmospheric CO2 concentrations. stonecypher has been drastically misinforming you about the entire volcano non-issue.
4) It is indisputable that CO2 is a greenhouse gas. We've known at least that much for 150 years. It's disingenuous to portray this as a mere correlation, since the mechanism driving the correlation is well understood.
5) We know that solar flux has been basically steady since we started getting satellite data, so the most obvious alternative ("The sun is just warmer") is untenable.
6) We know that objections to the "consensus position" are surprisingly rare within the scientific community. A bit argument ad populum, but at least the populum in question knows what it's talking about. That's the sort of evidence that laypersons (who are notoriously bad at complex scientific issues) should be able to appreciate.
Regarding methane: First, we produce a helluva lot more CO2, which hurts the "maybe it's methane" picture you're trying to paint. Second, anthropogenic methane gets broken down relatively quickly, certainly when compared to CO2 levels. Methane concentrations have arguably stopped rising, so controls on methane are probably not our highest priority. More here.The consequences are numerous. First, we may not address the actual problem that is causing global warming. Second, we may cause huge social and economic consequences for no benefit. Third, if there is no benefit, any future notion of relying upon "scientific evidence" may be viewed skeptically by the masses.
What, exactly, are these "huge social and economic consequences?" If the recently released IPCC report is to be believed, an aggressive anti-CO2 campaign would "cost" about 3% of the expected economic growth between now and 2030 (I put the term "cost" in quotes, because this statistic ignores the cost of doing nothing). So, when we get to 2030, an aggressive climate change action plan will relegate us to the brutish, barbaric lifestyle of... 2028.
Also, you have to recognize that many of the proposed solutions have all manner of environmental and economic benefits that have absolutely nothing to do with global warming. CFLs, solar power, electric cars, reduced reliance on oil imports, smarter electric grids, kickass mass transit systems, localized food production... every one of them delivers benefits above and beyond reduced CO2 emissions. I believe that the economic "doomsday scenarios" of the climate skeptics are pure bunk. -
Re:Head in the sandYou'll note the dead silence at the news that Mars is warming just as fast (or faster), and by just as much, as the Earth is. Which has diddly squat to do with global warming on Earth (here and here). You'll note that on earth, historically speaking, CO2 rises lag warm periods, not lead them. Which has diddly squat to do with the fact that CO2 is now forcing the temperature change due, instead of vice versa (here). You'll also note that the evaporative cooling cycle - water vapor, rain, etc . - runs at many times the speed of the CO2 warming cycle and is temperature sensitive so that a warmer environment will make it run even faster. I have no idea what you are trying to imply by that. And of course, it is important to observe that the predictions of the climate models have been very, very poor, even completely failing in some regions. In point of fact, climate model predictions of things like global temperatures are not at all bad (here).
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Re:Head in the sandYou'll note the dead silence at the news that Mars is warming just as fast (or faster), and by just as much, as the Earth is. Which has diddly squat to do with global warming on Earth (here and here). You'll note that on earth, historically speaking, CO2 rises lag warm periods, not lead them. Which has diddly squat to do with the fact that CO2 is now forcing the temperature change due, instead of vice versa (here). You'll also note that the evaporative cooling cycle - water vapor, rain, etc . - runs at many times the speed of the CO2 warming cycle and is temperature sensitive so that a warmer environment will make it run even faster. I have no idea what you are trying to imply by that. And of course, it is important to observe that the predictions of the climate models have been very, very poor, even completely failing in some regions. In point of fact, climate model predictions of things like global temperatures are not at all bad (here).
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Re:Could Global Warming Make Life Better?
Dude, do you see ANY dinosaurs around here, saying, "Global warming will be just great for us, so bring it on?"
No. To put it bluntly, those creatures that were adapted to such warm weather have all gone extinct. The ecosystems that exist now will not be able to adjust to such a warming spike easily. Some won't be able to adapt at all.
By the way, for future reference: the whole "we can't be altering the planet because insects outweigh us" is just about the dumbest argument I've ever heard. That's about like saying "Bush can't be harming the country. In fact, he can't affect the country at all. He's just one guy, compared to five million homeless people! You want to blame somebody? Blame the hobos!"
Rising CO2 is mankind's fault. Case closed. -
Re:Give me a break...MMM. Who is FUDding here?
Yes, CO2 (and other gases) lag natural temperatures variations but the key point here is that temperatures will also react to a sudden influx / removal of same gas concentration. The current increase in gases is driving the temperature increase. As the temperature increase, so will additional concentration of those gases will be released until some other equilibrium is reached.
Have a look -
Aw crap, it's not a joke
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Re:Lengthy article, yes...
On the Greenland ice sheet, the IPCC report is being mischaracterized by Spiegel's reporter. There are also a handful of quotes from scientists about the imperfections and difficulties in climate models, which imply that those researchers share the reporter's skepticism about whether what the models say should be taken at all seriously. But do they? Or are they just being honest scientists describing their awareness of the limitations of their tools, who yet take seriously the likely threat that the best of those tools describe? At best, they are quoted out of context.
As for fewer deaths from the cold, surely we should remember the tens of thousands of deaths from the European heat wave a few summers ago. Then consider the NASA report just published estimating that by 2080 East Coast American cities which currently have summer temperatures in the the 80s with occasional spikes into the 90s will instead have typical temperatures in the 90s with occasional spikes into the 100s. What effect will that have on health? Have you tried breathing New York City ozone on a 95 degree day? What will that be like when it's 105 instead? How will it burn your lungs? -
Re:Oy vey gevault.
Vostok ice core data: http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/paleo/icecore/antarctica
/ vostok/vostok.html
CO2 concentrations over the last 600000 years: http://www.realclimate.org/epica.jpg
Sadly, I can't find the graph that superposes the temperature record over the CO2 record. I'm sure another 30 minutes of googling for it will yield it.
The spike is over the last 150 years or so, and basic modeling techniques show you that it is abnormal. All your questions can be answered by looking through the two graphs I provided you.
Alright, I exaggerated when I said that our CO2 output dwarfs all natural emissions. You're right, that's probably wrong. However, our emissions are currently not being absorbed as fast as they are generated, and total concentrations are rising quite nicely. That's the key part - we are putting stuff into the regular cycle that doesn't get absorbed.
I know you don't think that it's affecting the earth. You still haven't given a reason why, despite the well known physics of infrared absorption, which are described quite nicely here: http://teaching.shu.ac.uk/hwb/chemistry/tutorials/ molspec/irspec1.htm
The data about CO2 affecting infrared radiation from earth can be found here: http://www.realclimate.org/index.php?p=142, and at the Wikipedia article about greenhouse gases. If you object to the sources, you can always check the referenced literature.
I've got plenty of data. I can pull data for days. Where's yours? Where's your peer reviewed article? All you have is a few people who had to get a BBC documentary made, because people kept laughing at their theories and wouldn't bother publishing their papers. BTW, I've seen the BBC documentary - the data referenced in there, as well as the analysis thereof, has been widely discredited. For something real, read the IPCC reports: start here (http://www.ipcc.ch/pub/pub.htm), and don't stop until the end. Then come back.
Oh, and just for the heck of it, because I like Woods Hole and a friend of mine worked there, here's a little summary they threw together about the CO2 data collected: http://www.whrc.org/resources/online_publications/ warming_earth/scientific_evidence.htm
Again - where's your data? -
Re:Oy vey gevault.
Vostok ice core data: http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/paleo/icecore/antarctica
/ vostok/vostok.html
CO2 concentrations over the last 600000 years: http://www.realclimate.org/epica.jpg
Sadly, I can't find the graph that superposes the temperature record over the CO2 record. I'm sure another 30 minutes of googling for it will yield it.
The spike is over the last 150 years or so, and basic modeling techniques show you that it is abnormal. All your questions can be answered by looking through the two graphs I provided you.
Alright, I exaggerated when I said that our CO2 output dwarfs all natural emissions. You're right, that's probably wrong. However, our emissions are currently not being absorbed as fast as they are generated, and total concentrations are rising quite nicely. That's the key part - we are putting stuff into the regular cycle that doesn't get absorbed.
I know you don't think that it's affecting the earth. You still haven't given a reason why, despite the well known physics of infrared absorption, which are described quite nicely here: http://teaching.shu.ac.uk/hwb/chemistry/tutorials/ molspec/irspec1.htm
The data about CO2 affecting infrared radiation from earth can be found here: http://www.realclimate.org/index.php?p=142, and at the Wikipedia article about greenhouse gases. If you object to the sources, you can always check the referenced literature.
I've got plenty of data. I can pull data for days. Where's yours? Where's your peer reviewed article? All you have is a few people who had to get a BBC documentary made, because people kept laughing at their theories and wouldn't bother publishing their papers. BTW, I've seen the BBC documentary - the data referenced in there, as well as the analysis thereof, has been widely discredited. For something real, read the IPCC reports: start here (http://www.ipcc.ch/pub/pub.htm), and don't stop until the end. Then come back.
Oh, and just for the heck of it, because I like Woods Hole and a friend of mine worked there, here's a little summary they threw together about the CO2 data collected: http://www.whrc.org/resources/online_publications/ warming_earth/scientific_evidence.htm
Again - where's your data? -
Re:Oy vey gevault.Oh good lord.
If you really found that documentary convincing, you need to get your head examined.
Have you read Carl Wunsch's response to that "documentary" that he was featured in? Here's an interesting excerpt:In the part of the "Swindle" film where I am describing the fact that the ocean tends to expel carbon dioxide where it is warm, and to absorb it where it is cold, my intent was to explain that warming the ocean could be dangerous---because it is such a gigantic reservoir of carbon. By its placement in the film, it appears that I am saying that since carbon dioxide exists in the ocean in such large quantities, human influence must not be very important --- diametrically opposite to the point I was making --- which is that global warming is both real and threatening in many different ways, some unexpected.
If you want to attack global warming, focus on climate sensitivity to CO2 forcing (if you really think there is zero CO2 forcing, please provide a reference for that ?) and the hurricane stuff. Plenty of uncertainty there. But to claim "It's all about the sun" is to expose yourself as deeply ignorant/blind. Note that I am not claiming the sun isn't an important driver of climate; that is an equally insane proposition. But to ignore basic physics that no one can or will debunk is a little silly.
Can we all step back and admit that our opinions on climate change are fundamentally formed by deeper philosophical values that we have? It is clear to me that many, many people on both sides of this issue don't really pay attention to the science (read that IPCC report lately); they find the factoids that fit their preconceptions and go from there. I'm no different, though I actively try to objectively consider the available information. If we can start to get past our idealogical blinders, maybe we can have a conversation. But that goes for just about every issue these days.
BTW if anyone can explain how ocean acidification might not be a big deal, please share. -
Re:Watch out for DHMO
"Because the skeptics have to prove an arguement, rather than the "Scientists" have to prove their findings beyond doubt....Sorry, buddy, I live in reality, where scientific claims have to be backed up with proof instead of mass acceptance"
You may "live in reality" but your mind shows no sign of such constraints.
To anyone formally/self educated in the philosophy and practice of science, your posts are simply demonstrating you do not know the meaning of the words "skepticisim" and "science" and seem clueless as to how they relate to each other, the inescapable conclusion is you do not have the skills to practice either. (Hint: Proof is for mathemeticians, and "mass acceptance" is an intergral part of the scientific method that leads to terms such as "science says...", "established science", ect. "The scientific method" == "formalised skepticisim")
After consulting a reputable dictionary and then spending the next decade or so learning what it is that you are trying to discredit, you may want to try debunking this conservative but well known body of evidence. If a decade is too long then talk to some of the scientists about SPECIFICS.
"50 years ago we were talking about global cooling....the most outlandish predictions talk about a change of 5 degrees...."
Also if you are going to paraphrase ancient "talking points" at least try and get the temprature and timeframe right. Your post is so wrong it's almost funny but the joke is ruined by the fact that a large chunk of the population would see nothing wrong with your line of reasoning and many more would unknowingly dishonour the memory of Sagan by calling you a "skeptic". -
Re:Solar panel caused battery to overheat ?The article mentions that a new round of global-warming may be taking place on Mars - does this lend any credence to the theory that global warming is an unavoidable solar event? No.
There are good reasons to believe that the warming on Mars is not due to the Sun (here and here). There are even better reasons to believe that most of the warming on Earth is not due to the Sun (e.g., here and a bunch of essays here). -
Re:Solar panel caused battery to overheat ?The article mentions that a new round of global-warming may be taking place on Mars - does this lend any credence to the theory that global warming is an unavoidable solar event? No.
There are good reasons to believe that the warming on Mars is not due to the Sun (here and here). There are even better reasons to believe that most of the warming on Earth is not due to the Sun (e.g., here and a bunch of essays here). -
Asking Questions Isn't a Rebuttal
That I find that many GW skeptics do the former. That is to say they raise legitimate questions of the empirical data. They question the methods used, such as using computer models to "prove" things (a model doesn't prove anything), the data gathered, the understanding of the system and so on. They bring up extremely valid points. However the response always seems to be the same: They are shouted down.
That's fine as far as it goes. And especially when it coincides with erring on the side of caution, it can be useful.
The problem I have with even a lot of the people in this camp is that it often looks like they're not actively developing a more useful conceptual framework for understanding climate change. The purpose of their questions doesn't seem to be to provoke thought or produce illumination.
The purpose simple seems to be to call existing understanding into doubt, and to prevent action based on it.
And then it gets taken to the popular sphere, where it absolutely IS, no question, used by industry shills, political entertainers, and other manipulators of the public mindset.
If the people who are getting shouted down want to be taken seriously, they're going to have to work harder on both fronts: gather better data, produce clearly better models. And they're going to have make the implications of their work clear, so that they don't find themselves being used in the same breath as those who say "Hah! Global warming my navel! I woke up this morning and there was a foot of snow!"
It's a rough road, but it's the real road travelled by those who've been able to fight existing consensus and shift paradigms.
From what I've seen, the skeptics do their best to present very well reasoned criticisms and questions of the accepted knowledge. The defenders are the ones that act unscientific and just shout the other side down.
I'm sure there is simple shouting down going on, as surely as there absolutely people who are living examples of the "Global warming my navel" crowd I mentioned before, and real industry shills.
There are, by the same token, people who are happy to genuinely argue the scientific case. For example, the sun-driven theory of climate change has been around for a while, and its critics aren't simply ignoring it:
http://www.realclimate.org/index.php?p=180
When the science of the skeptics can be called into question, as it often can be, the shoe should be worn on the other foot. -
Re:Global warming on Mars, also?Whether you agree with Lindzen or his skeptics, one thing you must conclude from the article is that global climate is still not understood well enough for anyone to make accurate predictions of what will happen in 1 year, 10 years, 100 years. And why "must" we conclude that from the article? It is clear from the article that the role of clouds (which is only one component of many in climate change) is still being seriously debated, for instance. The role of clouds is uncertain, but that doesn't mean that we can't predict anything. Uncertainty in the cloud feedback means that we are uncertain about the climate sensitivity to CO2 emissions, which summarizes the contributions of all the various climate feedbacks. But when you assimilate the observational data, the probable range of climate sensitivity allowed by the data still leads to substantial warming over the next century. And those predictions are always based on models which includes assumptions about how different components of climate change interact. This is non-insightful. All predictions in all fields of science are based on assumptions, but that does not mean that all predictions are worthless — not even when some of the assumptions are inaccurate! As George Box once said, "all models are wrong, but some are useful". Every model makes approximations, and there are always known inaccuracies in any model. The issue is whether current climate models are accurate enough to be useful. On the basis of the physical tests of the assumptions which go into them, and on cross-validation and intermodel comparison studies, I would argue that they are. If you want to argue the opposite, go ahead, but you can't just dismiss them with a trite "they make assumptions". It's much easier to believe information about Mars because the readings are extremely accurate and only come from modern instruments, and we know there is no human influence on temperature. Actually, the temperatures on Mars are known less well than the current temperatures on Earth; it is only as you go further back into the past that the terrestrial uncertainties become greater.
More to the point, however, is that less accurate data on Earth is still better than no data on Mars, which gets back to the 6-year criticism. And most to the point is that the Mars data does not actually establish a causal link between Martian and Earth climate, and there are very good reasons to believe that there is no such link. The only physically possible link is solar output, and changes in solar output are implausible sources of warming both on Mars (here, here) and on Earth (here, here). -
Re:Global warming on Mars, also?Whether you agree with Lindzen or his skeptics, one thing you must conclude from the article is that global climate is still not understood well enough for anyone to make accurate predictions of what will happen in 1 year, 10 years, 100 years. And why "must" we conclude that from the article? It is clear from the article that the role of clouds (which is only one component of many in climate change) is still being seriously debated, for instance. The role of clouds is uncertain, but that doesn't mean that we can't predict anything. Uncertainty in the cloud feedback means that we are uncertain about the climate sensitivity to CO2 emissions, which summarizes the contributions of all the various climate feedbacks. But when you assimilate the observational data, the probable range of climate sensitivity allowed by the data still leads to substantial warming over the next century. And those predictions are always based on models which includes assumptions about how different components of climate change interact. This is non-insightful. All predictions in all fields of science are based on assumptions, but that does not mean that all predictions are worthless — not even when some of the assumptions are inaccurate! As George Box once said, "all models are wrong, but some are useful". Every model makes approximations, and there are always known inaccuracies in any model. The issue is whether current climate models are accurate enough to be useful. On the basis of the physical tests of the assumptions which go into them, and on cross-validation and intermodel comparison studies, I would argue that they are. If you want to argue the opposite, go ahead, but you can't just dismiss them with a trite "they make assumptions". It's much easier to believe information about Mars because the readings are extremely accurate and only come from modern instruments, and we know there is no human influence on temperature. Actually, the temperatures on Mars are known less well than the current temperatures on Earth; it is only as you go further back into the past that the terrestrial uncertainties become greater.
More to the point, however, is that less accurate data on Earth is still better than no data on Mars, which gets back to the 6-year criticism. And most to the point is that the Mars data does not actually establish a causal link between Martian and Earth climate, and there are very good reasons to believe that there is no such link. The only physically possible link is solar output, and changes in solar output are implausible sources of warming both on Mars (here, here) and on Earth (here, here). -
Re:Hypocrisy
Oh do come on. The realclimate article punches holes a mile wide in the Swindle stuff. Can you invalidate the Realclimate arguments?
The Swindle thing isn't just biased. It is wrong, and easily shown to be so. That's different.
Realclimate has an angle, but they back up their opinion with, you know, real research.
Did you read Carl Wunsch's letter? Like how me mentions,In the part of the "Swindle" film where I am describing the fact that the ocean tends to expel carbon dioxide where it is warm, and to absorb it where it is cold, my intent was to explain that warming the ocean could be dangerous---because it is such a gigantic reservoir of carbon. By its placement in the film, it appears that I am saying that since carbon dioxide exists in the ocean in such large quantities, human influence must not be very important --- diametrically opposite to the point I was making --- which is that global warming is both real and threatening in many different ways, some unexpected.
-
Re:Climate
The scientific community generally regards Milankovitch cycles as being in large part responsible for non-industrial era warming. Yet, when it comes to industrial era warming, proponents of human-caused global climate change say that CO2 emissions are driving temperature. This is a logical departure from the previous theory because it readjusts causality.
Actually, a lot of climate scientists do tackle the questions of solar and orbital cycles effecting, and temperature causing CO2 emissions at the start of historical warming cycles rather than the other way around.
With regards to the lady in question from the original poster, I agree with the AC. Could we have a name to verify the claim? Does she still claim this more than 10 years later? If so, resubmit. There is an enormous amount of scientific research being done in this area, and there are organizations willing to fund research debunking global warming (mainly in the petrolium industry)... I don't mean this as a smear, honestly, I am serious. No matter where the funding is coming from, if the research is sound and stands up to scrutiny it would make her world famous. It would also be a big relief for me actually, it would remove a great cause of worry for me. -
Re:HypocrisyUsing a biased source to purport another source to be biased is pretty hypocritical.
Why do you say real climate is biased? They don't seem to be:RealClimate is a commentary site on climate science by working climate scientists for the interested public and journalists. We aim to provide a quick response to developing stories and provide the context sometimes missing in mainstream commentary. The discussion here is restricted to scientific topics and will not get involved in any political or economic implications of the science.
I have heard people describe realclimate as biased again and again, without a shred of evidence to back it up. Do you have any evidence? Or are you basing real climate being biased on truthiness?