Slashdot Mirror
Proposed Legislation Is Mooninite Fallout
theantipop writes "Ars Technica has a story about the Terrorist Hoax Improvements Act, a bill introduced recently by the Senate. The bill aims to 'amend the federal criminal code to include a number of new clauses meant to up the ante on wasting government resources. The amendments include extensions to the prohibitions on the spread of false information and mailing threats, increases to maximum prison terms, and allowances for civil suits so that local and federal governments can attempt to recoup expenses related to an incident.' This is undoubtedly a reaction to the Great Mooninite Scare of 2007."
Congress has just passed a bill making it illegal to make government officials look like idiots. Government officials were unavailable for comment, having been immediately arrested upon passage of the bill. This has started talk of a bill to make "making stupid things illegal" illegal, but it is unknown whether anyone is now left to vote on the bill, or, possibly more to the point, who will argue incessantly over whether the bill is self-contradictory or not.
Hmm, "prohibitions on the spread of false information...."
Does that mean that if another city starts considering legislation to ban dihydrogen monoxide (like Aliso Viejo, California did in 2004), that the government could seek damages from the mainainers of DHMO.org?
I'm giving this act the finger, AS HARD AS I CAN.
We figured out a long time ago that it's easier to elect seven judges than to elect 132 legislators.
Don't mess with football!
And all of the actors form War of the Worlds would be locked up...
And yet it still wouldn't make us any more safe from a real terrorist attack. Huh.
-Rick
"Most people in the U.S. wouldn't know they live in a tyrannical state if it walked up and grabbed their junk." - MyFirs
today is spelling optional day.
Thus, ever higher do the jail sentences creep.
Soon, the difference between a normal sentence and life will be one of title only.
occultae nullus est respectus musicae - originally a Greek proverb
Wait a minute here. How the hell can the government enter into civil suits?
These are suits which are outside of the usual prosecutorial parts of the justice system -- ie civilian.
They can pass a law to make it a crime, but I can't imagine the badness of the precedent of governments being able to take civil action. Take criminal action, or bugger off. You can't really ask to do both.
Does this even have a valid basis in law?
Cheers
Lost at C:>. Found at C.
This will never happen. It would open the door for the government to artificially get excited about any action someone does and then declare it a "terrorist act". Some may say they would only go after reasonable "hoaxes", but all the ATHF people did was hang some light brites in public places. There was no signage or any other indicator that the things were terrorist related or even dangerous.
Ninjas don't carry tic tacs
did not RTFA, but the government is the single largest distributor of false information around...
everything from telling us that reducing your cholesterol intake will lower your risk of heart disease (false) to telling us there were WMDs in Iraq.
seems like they're going to need a "no tag backs" clause in this one.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Was that more the fault of the guy who put up the signs, the people who became terrified of them, the officials who ordered the response, or the governmental folks who can't let this thing alone?
Besides, isn't wasting government resources precisely what government does best?
Is the White House spreading democracy and freedom.
Dear United Nations:
Please send your elections monitoring force to the United States of America in 2008 to monitor the U.S. Presidential race.
Additionally, to thwart strong-arm tactics at polling stations, U.N. Peace Keeping Troops are urgently requested.
Thank you for your consideration.
Peacefully as always,
Kilgore Trout, C.E.O.
If a group posts fliers and holds rallies against some government official because he is corrupt, couldn't he simply call in the police/feds on the group as a "possible terrorist group", ransack their offices, etc, run up a huge bill and then sue the group out of existence under this new bill?
Space for rent, inquire within
I was informed by a coworker that I might get into trouble over the finger. So I erased just the finger. But that hasn't stopped others from adding penises or hats or other features to my mooninite.
Someone hates these cans.
When they, for example publish official reports about, say, "Canadian Spy Coins".
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070507/ap_on_go_ot/sp y_coins
Undetectable Steganography? Yep, there's an app fo
The best thing that people could do is to start reporting every single unattended piece of garbage, shopping trolly, paper bag, cardboard box, tin can etc to the authorities as a 'suspect device'.
Something along the lines of: "You wanted to be notified of any suspicious devices or activities? Well theres a paper bag lying on the ground here at (insert location) and noone seems to know anything about it. Its big enough to hold a few sticks of dynamite or something. Just being a good citizen, sir!".
If the 'authorities' want to take *obvious* stuff like the mooninites publicity stunt *that* seriously then let them try to apply the same level of serious for any notification of 'suspect objects'.
The problem of stupid overreaction on the part of the 'authorities' will go away very very quickly.
In the free world the media isn't government run; the government is media run.
So it cost cartoon network 2$mil in settlements plus their incidental costs with the case, added to the original investment for the terrist-ads themselves. Considering this got more press than most Superbowl advertisements it seems like the return on investment was pretty solid.
Ice Cream has no bones.
Lets face it we live in a shaky world where bomb threats, planted packages and such can turn a city into chaos be the threats real or a hoax. I understand the need to come down hard on some idiot who thinks its funny to scare the hell out of people to make a statement. It's sad that some expression of art/speech/whatever may be lost in the translation but does anyone have a better idea to deter and punish some wacko?
Um, wasnt the boston government the ones "spreading false information" and making bomb threats?
09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
XXX#######
Uh, wait. So this is a bill about banning the spreading of false information that ends up in wasted state ressources?
Am I dreaming, or is someone sneakily trying to make the whole Iraq war outright illegal?
What the fuck is wrong with this country? When did an issue like this become something the federal government has jurisdiction over?
Actually, I know our states gave that up a while ago. It's still stupid, along with the bill in the first place.
Yes, I am a smart ass; it's better than the alternative.
Who is going to recoup the cost of longer jail terms? We only need to lock someone up if they are a continuing threat to others if not locked up, which in this case would mean they would continue to intentionally make terrorist hoaxes (which, if only a hoax, is not really a threat per se so much as a considerable annoyance). This bill is inherently contradictory. If someone *intentionally* and *with malice* makes a terrorist hoax, I want them contributing some portion of their income to paying responder overtime so I don't have to, not sitting in jail getting housed and fed on my dime.
Also, if this is a reaction to the scare in Boston, the bill should be rewritten so that people affected by the reaction should be able to bring civil suit against the government for wasting their time, not the other way down. Although, that would, on a large scale, result in people suing themselves, which would no doubt be interesting, and perhaps educational.
I used the mooninite "PARANOIA: If it's not an American flag, it's probably a bomb." picture as my screen background. Of course, on looking at it, it has two typos. I think I may draw in the missing apostrophes on my copy....
Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.
If people start receiving sentences for minor (or non-existent) infractions, then large numbers of people will realize that the difference in punishment between, say, talking about guns at work and using guns to fix the country is minimal.
No kidding.
This is what I'm talking about when I say government is never at fault.. no matter how badly they screw up.
Bringing liberty to the masses. - http://freetalklive.com/
Either work to change the law, or leave the country. This isn't a "love it or leave it" comment - I don't care if you love America or not. But if you want to change things, then you should either enter politics and work to change it, or work on taking your brain and your skills to some other nation. If all the smart people leave then America won't be able to build new bombers :D
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
From the article:
"...the provisions in the bill would allow the government to take civil action against parties involved in perceived hoaxes if they fail to "promptly and reasonably inform one or more parties... of the actual nature of the activity" once they learn about investigative action taking place. In the case of Boston, this means that everyone involved could be sued for not immediately informing the police of the campaign upon receiving news of the emergency reaction."
So if you find out that the president is dispatching the national guard to combat your alien invasion hoax, you need to call the police up and let them know that it's just a joke, or risk being liable for emergency response costs.
That sounds down right reasonable to me.
Just like you can't scream "FIRE" in a crowded theatre and expect there to be no consequences.
The way the article puts it, you can't be held liable just if they over react. You can only be held liable if they overreact and you know about their overreaction but fail to alert them.
Where's the problem here? Emergency responses are expensive. I'd rather not give any more leeway than the constitution requires to some punks working for a marketing agency wasting my tax dollars, thanks.
by their definition, orson wells was on par with any terrorist organization. i still haven't heard how (if it was a real bomb or bioagent) picking it up with no armor other than a riot face shield and latex gloves and then blowing it up in the street was a proper course of action. if it was a real dirty bomb, the bomb squad would have done the terrorists job for them. blame anyone you want, but the real fault lies with our "expert" bomb techs that could recognize a simple equivalent to a lite brite and some batteries wrapped in tape.
in fact my first words when i saw the bomb were, "what the hell??? is that err shotting the bird??? i thought he liked to smoke while he shoots the bird."
1. The entity responsible for turning the Mooninite publicity stunt into a terrorist-like hoax was Boston PD. It was the response, not the act.
2. There is nothing quite like a murky law--see the DMCA for a great example. So, would any hoax auto-magically become "terrorist-like"? Would someone accidentally leaving a backpack/iPod/Slurpee/etc. behind be guilty under this act if it caused a Boston-sized fuss? Or would a court of law have to prove that the perp had hoax-ish intentions?
Somewhere, real terrorists are laughing at the fact that the US is wasting their time with this type of legislature. Sad, really.
...///...
This is exactly what we needed: A law that will allow a government office to sue a citizen based upon some subjective criteria. What is a "perceived hoax?" Who is going to be nailed for the next Mooninite fiasco? The guy who leaves his lawn mower by the curb for a week? Someone traveling through an airport? There are already laws for creating a disturbance, and causing unrest.
There's a big difference between a hoax and a publicity stunt that is mistaken as possible terrorism. If someone attempts to fool people into believing a terrorist activity is in progress, that's a terrorist hoax.
If someone does something completely unrelated that is somehow interpreted as terrorist activity, that is not a terrorist hoax. It's a mess, yes, but not a terrorist hoax.
The intention and execution is what makes the difference.
-S
That's really going to cut down the Slashdot replies
The description of the act leaves out how they plan to improve terrorist hoaxes.
Hmm, I wonder:
Politician 1: Great! Now we can over-react, and it won't cost us anything!
Politician 2: We should start recovering costs immediately.
Politician 1: What if the citizens get de-sensitized to "cost recovery" actions every 5 minutes?
Politician 2: Simple! We'll use the recovered costs to fabricate more 'exciting' terrorist hoaxes!
eskwayrd = m^2c^4
Once when I was in the military, stationed in Okinawa, we had a situation. The political environment wasn't exactly good for us right then, a drunk Marine had hit and run a local Prom Queen, we had a few large groups of protesters at the base gates, and it looked like the newly elected official for the island was going to push for moving the Marines out of Japan. So anyways, on night while walking home from the base PX (err, a mall for ya civies) I saw a bulging cardboard box sitting by a mail box in front of one of the Barracks (it caught my eye, but it was a ways off). When I got to my barracks I told the Duty that there was a box by the mail box in front of the other barracks. It was like hot potato. Given the social/political climate at the time, it very well could have been a bomb, and no one wanted to be the one to go poking at it first. After way to much drama, I wound up going back out with a budy to look at it.
It was a pair of boots in the box.
I still don't know who the clown was who left his boots in a box by the mail, but it had the Duty on the verge of calling the MPs, Hazmat, and the OOD.
Point being, sometimes innoculous crap is just that. The bitch of it though, is that some times it isn't.
-Rick
"Most people in the U.S. wouldn't know they live in a tyrannical state if it walked up and grabbed their junk." - MyFirs
According to dictionary.com, the Random House Unabridged Dictionary definition of "hoax" is "something intended to deceive or defraud". I don't see how, at all, the mooninite publicity stunt would be a "hoax" under the proper definition.
Sure, if they had intended to scare the public into thinking that terrorists were attacking America in order to drive them into their homes (where they would no doubt cower in fear watching Aqua Teen Hunger Force), then yes, I would agree that it was a hoax and that they would need to be properly penalized.
It doesn't seem like that was the case at all. I wish people would stop using words however they want, especially in political arenas, where rhetoric is one of the most powerful tools available. ("You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.")
I agree with the bill in letter, but I doubt the government's ability to follow it in spirit. Anything they don't like and construe as a terrorist treat can be a "hoax". That guy in a black spider-man costume? Well, we need some money... he must be a possible terrorist.
http://www.tenjou.net/
I agree! The people behind this act should suffer tremendously for wasting government resources!
The mayor and police chief of boston should resign immediately, followed by whoever the hell proposed this bill to congress.
"The need to build the internet comes from something inside us, something programmed... something we can't resist."
So, the best place to hide a bomb would be behind or under an American flag?
Speaking of paranoia: Have you ever had the neighbors call the fire department over the smoke from your barbecue? Have you ever had them call the police cause they heard the headboard banging on the wall along with the sounds of a woman whom they thought was in pain? Have you ever been reported for child abuse because your kids were heard fighting or they screamed "please no daddy" multiple times when you told them to turn off the TV and go take a bath/go to bed? Would these count as you wasting the resources of the local authorities under this legislation?
presidents? Most of the frauds and hoaxes lately have been coming straight from the White House.
if this is aimed at all those government officials and tv stations and other news outlets that kept calling it a 'terrorist threat' well after they knew it wasn't, then they deserve it (it's not like they didn't pick up the phone and call cartoon network the second the cofee boy said "look, it's those dudes from adul swim")
--
Stay tuned for some shock and awe coming right up after this messages!
... are the fracking idiots who jump to DefCon 5 every damned time someone sneezes, farts, or puts some blinkenlights beside the road. Not to mention the 700-dollar hammer, the 2200-dollar toilet seat, and the chocolate chip cookie recipe that required hundreds of pages of military specifications.
Talk about a state of continuous fear. The fear-mongers really are starting to win.
They want improved terrorist hoaxes?
I guess it would help if someone else perpetrated a believable hoax, it would take the pressure off the US government.
It looks like clueless superstitious barbarians running things and not listening to their technically skilled farmers/tradesfolk is still happening. Spy coins with nanotech eh? The US intelligence agencies really can get lower than using wonderwomans golden lariat and think a comic book artist really knows how to make a machine to magically see the truth (was Hoover bribed on that one or was he just stupid?).
I completely misunderstood the purpose of the bill. I thought it was aimed at creating more convincing false flag plans like Operation Northwoods. Silly me.
One evening just after dark a friend of mine was walking home and saw a car on his street slow down abruptly. It swerved towards the shoulder then took off, racing away and around the corner. He went inside and within a couple minutes he heard sirens. There were half a dozen police cars blocking off his street, and a bomb squad van a couple houses down. He stepped outside to ask the police what was going on; apparently the guy had seen a pipe bomb in the street, which was why he sped off. My friend was told to remain inside until further notice.
15 minutes later there was a knock on his door. A police officer told him it was ok to come outside, it was a false alarm. Asked what the suspicious object was, if it wasn't a pipe bomb, the officer explained that it was a "large dildo".
So does this mean that if someone points to you and says "terrorist", you get kidnapped and transferred to another country where you are tortured for months or years, then you turn out to be completely innocent, you can be sued for the cost of your "extrodninary rendition"?
And why not, since the USA is outsourcing tourture, why not outsource the funding also?
The meat of it:
Discuss.This post expresses my opinion, not that of my employer. And yes, IAAL.
Thankfully the Mooninite thing was an advertising stunt and not a terrorist hoax or anything.
Modern copyright is theft of culture from everyone and it retards the progress of the useful arts and sciences.
So, let me get this straight, betwetters. Every time I experience an object, sound, or symbol I don't recognize, or one which reminds me of something that could be used to inflict harm, somebody should go to jail?
If you want your safety guaranteed to an arbitrary degree, well, I guess we'll have the brain in a vat plan available fairly soon. And before that, you're welcome to check yourself into total a surveillance camp. For the rest of us, a little common sense and a modicum of dignity will just have to get us by.
Seriously, the best way, long term, to get people to make rational decisions throughout the day would be early exposure, in school, to elementary logic, statistics, and game theory. As important as pure math is, I think that this should be a separate set of classes, because... well, it'll be easier to market it if you tie it to real life. Here are a couple books I think should be required reading in high school:
Innumeracy
Prisoner's Dilemma
It would seem that since Senator Kennedy of Massachussettes is the sponsor of the bill this has something to do with the Mooninite fallout. IANAL but I still didn't read anything much that would put the guerilla marketing company in too much extra trouble. The thing that stands out to me is that the amended version still says
The key I think is in the first part of the sentence that says "...with intent to convey false or misleading information...". I guess a case could be made that their intent was to convey false or misleading information by not providing any information but it seems like that is stretching it.
For the links I used:
the proposed amendment and its full text
Unamended Section 1038 of Title 18 of the US Code
section 2332b since the amendment adds a reference to section 2332b(g)(5)(B) of this title ( Title 18 )
Me!!
Certainly not in the case of Boston. Incompetency abounds there. Paying them when they act incompetent sends the wrong message. Instead, when a case like this happens, it's the stupid city officials that should reimburse the taxpayers.
now we need to go OSS in diesel cars
Now over reacting idiots can charge their stupidity to some random person.
Steve's Computer Service, Hobbs, NM
I seem to remember an incredible amount of bullshit
It's all very well to have laws, but who decides which laws apply to which people?
Not only can the government abuse you for any reason, now it can charge you for the cost of it too when it turns out to be unfounded!
I don't know the meaning of the word 'don't' - J
for falsely claiming that Iraq was a threat and wasting all that money and all those lives?
That sounds worthwhile to me...
There's a better one here.
(hint: Word per line mod 4, to hex)
The legislation will never be passed as it sets out to create "extensions to the prohibitions on the spread of false information". REPUBLICANS WILL NEVER STAND FOR THIS. It would put FOX News Out of Business
-Ministry of Truth
They should make it retroactive and then apply it to the Department of Homeland Security. We know that politics has been the motive of raising the alert level.
0 -ridge-alerts_x.htm
http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2005-05-1
This would criminalize this deplorable government behavior. It would also make it illegal for the government to make up BS about WMDs in some poor country who's oil we want.
-- QED
It was clearly NOT inadvertent. It went completely unnoticed in the other cities, ignored, NO PRESS.
Boston was the reaction they were looking for, as evidenced by their deliberate holding off of informing the authorities, and complete failure to obtain any permits or otherwise inform any authorities before the event.
Although, frankly, I think the actual artist they convinced to place the devices was intended to be the patsy once everything went down. Sure they can use the excuse that they didn't want to spend a lot of money, but that's a very convenient excuse in light of the unfolding of events. The ad company executives should have had to pay restitution and spend a night or two in detention. (not because their actions were a public nuisance, but because that nuisance appears to have been the goal.)
Can you be Even More Awesome?!
+1 thank you! Can we get some mod points over here, please?
If I mod you up, it doesn't necessarily mean I agree with what you've said, sorry.
The subject is the question. see TA.
If we're all going to be jumping at shadows, then why not require everyone stay at home, on the government's tab, in perpetuity until the war on terror is "won"? After all, at any time, any car could have a bomb in it, any person walking down the street could be wearing an explosive vest, and any blinking light could be a potential time bomb (including turn signals, radio dials, and streetlights). So the safest place to be is home. Forever. For freedumb.
Just because you can mod me down, doesn't mean you're right. Shoes for industry!
One question though - who carries a rubber chicken in their pocket? :-P.
Why I do, about half the time. No, two-thirds. . . well, about half the time.
You never know when you might need to defend yourself.
Microsoft is to software what Budweiser is to beer.
Have you ever been reported for child abuse because your kids were heard fighting or they screamed "please no daddy" multiple times when you told them to turn off the TV and go take a bath/go to bed?
What? You don't pop 'em across the mouth for the back-talk? What kind of parent are you?
No wonder America is in trouble. Fer Christ's sake, man, beat your kids into submission! Otherwise, they'll always think they can question authority.
Microsoft is to software what Budweiser is to beer.
By the way -- why do you hate America?
I don't hate America.
I hate Americans.
But then, I hate everybody.
Microsoft is to software what Budweiser is to beer.
Reduce, reuse, cycle
"meant to up the ante on wasting government resources"
So... What does this mean for all those government employees 'supervising' the worker digging a new hole in the street? Or for those guys busy developing pens that write upside down? Or...[rambles on incoherently]
Somebody's gotta say it, might as well be me.
Those who have telepathy have no need to RTFA.
This reads like something from www.theonion.com .
The purpose of existence is to make money.
Here's a video of the boston news on TV:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7kdP8WBB4lI
Actually, there's at least one that comes pretty close, and I apologize in advance if this sounds like an advertisement.
Weight Watchers, aside from the "points" system they use (which is just glorified calorie counting with a built-in penalty for high fat, and a slight reward for high fiber), also tells people following their plan to have their five servings of fruits and vegetables, two servings of dairy (or equivalent calcium at least), sufficient protein, and a few other rules. And yes, those "points" do get tailored to your personal, specific needs, based not just on age, weight, height, and level of activity, but also on your reaction to the limit as you follow the plan.
It's commercial enough that you probably just immediately file it into the "diet peddlers" slum, but they really do advocate a very sensible approach to weight loss. They're also very up-front about the fact that it's not a get-slim-and-quit approach, but a lifestyle change that you'll have to stick with.
I mention Weight Watchers to give you some background when I say that I disagree that nobody who's advocating a sensible plan has any money to advertise with. Unfortunately, it's a tough thing to advertise effectively. Their best advertising really is word-of-mouth. I know many people who've lost weight with their plan, and even kept most of it off.
--
"I personal[ly] think Unix is "superior" because on LSD it tastes like Blue." -- jbarnett
There's nothing wrong with this law, if it is used to punish those who *PURPOSEFULLY* waste government resources.
The thing is, at least on a local level, these laws already exist. Think they don't? Try calling 911 and telling them that you think that someone is in your... PLEASE DON'T! NOOOO! *click* and then laugh when the cops show up. And keep laughing as they cart your butt off to jail. Calling in a fake bomb scare is a crime. As is impeding an investigation.
I don't think that this is a waste of a law either, apparently there isn't such a law on a federal level, yet.
If this law were applied to the Boston Moonite case, it would be misapplied. There was no intent to cause any kind of governmental involvement. Plastering LED posters isn't a crime, and shouldn't be. The only crime here was the presence of some criminally stupid government officials and media, and the idiot member of the public that first reported the "suspicious material." Although I don't blame the guy who first called it in, really. If you see something scary, call in - sure, fine. That's probably a good idea. But the cops should have been able to quickly tell it's a freaking lite brite without the box.
The point is, there was no criminal intent. There was no desire at all on the part of Master Shake, Meatwad, or Frylock to involve the authorities. There was, and is, no crime there.
It is a crime that GP has informative mod and the parent does not...
no one would be employed anymore.
Let's face it - YOU've probably made a dumb mistake at least once in your life, and were fortunate enough that the press didn't have a cluster-fuck over it, and you probably didn't get fired.
Remember, we are talking extremely unlikely events. To give a geek analogy, do you have fire suppression in your server room? When was the last time you head of a data center burning down? Well, then if you have fire suppression in your data center, then you are an idiot and therefore must be fired.
Give a man a fish and you have fed him for today. Teach a man to fish, and he'll say "WHERE'S MY FISH, YOU IDIOT?"
and they'll take it.
Basic human nature is why the state can never work. In fact, it's also why even anarchy can never work. Anarchy, however, offers the least opportunity for abuse.
You can't base a society higher than a chimpanzee troop on primates. It's that simple.
Unfortunately, primates are also incapable of learning this obvious truth.
Which is why you're all going to die and we Transhumans won't.
Have a nice day.
Richard Steven Hack - This sig is TOO GODDAMN SHORT TO DO ANYTHING USEFUL WITH! MORONS!