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WHY in the hell you want to run Linux and X on a ridiulously underpowered Palm, I have no idea, but I hope you know about Palm Linux and Clinux. Whats funny, to me, is that your request for X windows is even dismissed as silly on their page as well.

"Windowing Environment? I don't think windows has much of a place here, but it would be funny!"

However, some fools are working on this too. and Nano-X could probably be ported to it.

Anyway, how much for the 16mb Palm? ;)

Maybe if people start to realize that there should be an alternative to PalmOS, it will be good for the ucLinux and PicoGUI projects?

The uClinux ports page has a picture of a CISCO 3000 running uClinux. The picture was taken with a AXIS web camera the really cool thing is that the new AXIS 2100 WEB camera runs uClinux. A great commercial use for uClinux if you ask me. As for the older CISCO 3000 .. I just think it is neat! uClinux running on the Motorola 68EN302 processor. Linux on mmu-less devices is truely here to stay. If customs will let me through the border with them, I will bring the CISCO and the AXIS camera to the ESC trade show in San Jose. I will be at the Lineo booth.

(Why) not just port Linux to existing PDAs? ... what about for PalmOS?

There is a Palm port of Linux. Actually, the CLinux is for CPU's without a memory management unit, like the Motorola Dragonball processor.

Didn't this get reported earlier?

Note that the TRG card was not solely providing 8MB of RAM, but also supplied some flashable ROM capabilities; I'm not sure which part was critical to letting Linux boot.

If you look at the uClinux web site, it really seems quite directed to use in embedded applications, and part of the documentation there suggests that many apps won't even need multitasking, which isn't terribly compatible with this being a "generally" useful platform.

I don't think you'll be running a uClinux PDA any time soon, suffice it to say...

Yes.

If only i spoke danish :) I do...

It's 10x16 centimeters, so 4x6 inches is close enough.

Off my head it costs $250 for parts - some (as in all) assembly required. A few days ago I inquired about a price for an assembled system, but I have yet to get an answer. Will probably be a while now that they got /.'ed.

If you're into in-a-box stuff, like at what the CSimm (no affiliations) does. It's smaller (the whole darn thing fits in an old-style 30 pin ram-socket). Just bought two of those for running CLinux. They're pretty little Motorola Dragonballs (also powers the PalmPilot V series) with 8 Megs of RAM and 2 Megs of Flash and an ehternet chip. No sleep for me now :-)

I've just purchased two ucSimm modules with a DragonBall and running CLinux. The whole thing, with 8 Megs of RAM, 2 Megs of Flash ROM and an Ehternet chip fits in a single old-style 30 pin RAM socket!

For those who care, a DragonBall is officially a Motorola 68EZ328 processor running at 16 MHz. CLinux is a version of our favorite OS designed for chips with no MMU (Memory Management Unit), and fits nicely into the 2 Megs of flash ROM.

If you're interested in putting Linux on PDAs, you might look at this stuff too:
handhelds.org: Putting Linux on iPAQ and Nino
linuxce.org: Developing a Linux Kernel for WinCE devices
linux-vr.org : running linux on your VR series device
uclinux.org: linux/microcontroller project
Yopy: Samsung's pre-installed Linux PDA with color/sound.

hope this helps the interested.

wish
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And besides the "Palm-plus-expansion-board"-stuff from uclinux, there's the LART as a research project and the upcoming Yopy (see below).

It may only be the first PDA being shipped with Linux. So let's forgive the misleading emphasis:-) But they definitely have to do something about the "system requirements" for the Desktop Partner. vtech.com states: "Microsoft Windows® 95 or Windows® NT Workstation" :-( But netcraft says their webserver is running apache on BSD:-)

On the plus side: 8 MB of SDRAM, plus 2 MB flash for operating system and applications for about $179 against $157 for the Palm IIe with it's 2MB (using http://computers.cnet.com/ list prices, since I haven't seen the Helio being shipped in europe (anyone?)).

But, as stated in another comment, they have to go a long run with Palm being something like a de facto standard (besides the "Windows powered" stuff:-). And, don't forget the Samsungs studies for a "hi end" GNU/Linux-powered PDA: The Yopy. 32MB RAM, 32MB(64MB) Flash Memory and a 206MHz ARM RISC 32bit Microprocessor.

So, I'm not that convinced that "The Helio may make a break for the running of the PDA-of-choice-for-Linux-geeks yet".

Is that true? I thought Linux was up on the Palm already. At least it is according to the guys at uClinux. They must mean first to run Linux on standard hardware.

GoodPint

Hmmm...

TI-89. Linux. TI-89. Linux. ..... click here, click Send.

We are working with Linux 2.0.33 + uClinux patch + DragonBall port of uClinux.

No code yet. Help us fix that :).

Hey elite hacker d00ds -- port uClinux to the TI-89. Please?

PalmOS has been licensed for use in such devices as the HandSpring Visor, TRGPro, and others. Furthermore, you can run ucLinux on it.

With many WinCE devices, developers had to produce multiple versions of the same program to cope with different devices' displays, controls, and processors. Hardly an open standard.

While you're scrawling commands at a prompt or waiting as X groks away the last of your memory and rejoicing "Hooray for Open Source!" the Palm users will be -- get ready now -- using their PDA's for productive use.

• PDAs/Handhelds and Linux: good summary table.
• LinuxCE: Linux for Handheld Computers.
• ucLinux: Linux on Palm Pilot.
• PC110: Linux on IBM PC110 compact computer.

But the other half was the size of the OS. It meant bigger memory requirements, which meant higher cost.
I agree about WinCE being a hog, but take a look at uClinux. It is a modified 2.0.38 kernel with virtual memory stripped out. It fits in 2MB EPROMs with lots of room left over for your apps. The difference is that WinCE is a big monolithic program (just like desktop windows), whereas Linux (or any Unix) is modular. You only include the pieces you need.

...you'd end up with something that wasn't particularly compatible with mainstream Linux...

You wouldn't have to add it to the kernel, you could implement something like this as another program that runs on the (more or less) standard Linux kernel. Sorta like an X replacement. It could even be the PalmOS API if you wanted it to be.

But do you really need multitasking on something like a palm-pilot?
Probably not, but there are lots of embedded applications that would benefit from multitasking.

Users?
Sure I can see some applications for multiple users in embedded devices. At the very least, it would be useful to have a normal user account and a root account (for debugging, system maintenance, etc.).

A file-system, even?
Absolutely! A RAMdisk, for example. Or the ability to mount an NFS volume.

If not, then why Linux?
Well, here are a few reasons. With Linux you get a stable kernel, with a good scheduler and very good networking. You get the source code. You can develop (and debug) nearly all of your application on your desktop (also running Linux, of course) and only port to the target when you're done. And you get portability. Pretty good reasons, imo.

Good thing it's already been done here. Of course, the Linux kernel, even when stripped down to the bare essentials, will need exponentially more memory than 4K... try 500K.

The main problem with wearable technology is power. It really defeats the purpose of having a computer that sits in your shirt pocket because you need a kilogram worth of batteries to run the thing for a day.

This is the reason why most of wearcomp stuff runs on embedded CPUs, such as the Motorola Dragonball series (as used in Palm) or the ARM chips (as used in Psion and Newton), NOT X86. Xybernaut does great stuff, but so far their systems have been hampered by the fact that they insist on running Windows on their wearables, so they need hefty processing power. Not that there are many companies in the wearable business anyway...

What Linux will offer is the ability to adapt to multiple platforms: you can do your development on your top-of-the-line Athlon system at home, then quite easily port onto your uCsimm system. I personally think that we're going to see a lot of new wearable systems based on light-weight embedded systems and uCLinux.

BTW, for anyone who is interested, go see the International Symposium on Wearable Computing home page (you can download most of the presentations from 98 and 99 as PDF (abstracts) and RealVideo). Another good place (though still heavily under construction) is the Wearable.org page. Did you know, for example, that you can harvest power from your shoes to power a wearable?

Linux has a chance to take the Palm/PDA world by storm if we can only get our collective butts in gear!

The following projects are critical and need our support -

Microwindows/Nanogui

uLinux

LinuxCE

flash memory drivers

And the existing Linux7k project.

Let's get the ball rolling!

I think Rebel.com has done an excellent job with the Netwinder. It's a small computer using a SA1100 StrongARM processor. It's the same processor used in the Empeg car audio player and can do what you want and much more. It not only runs Linux, but it was designed specifically for Linux. I had a chance to talk with them at Linux World and I can tell you they're a small shop full of good people.

You may also look at the LART project being done in TuDelft, Netherlands. I don't think they're selling anything (yet?) but it's nice to see Linux on a small processor capable of some real power. I don't have a link handy, oops.

Or, you could use a uCsimm. It's a port of Linux to the Dragonball microcontroller with integrated Ethernet. It all fits on a 30 pin simm complete with Flash. I consider that to be really cool. There are many more choices out there than plain ol' Linux on x86. Don't limit yourself.

GPL or not ... the removal of copyrights is not fair use. Not sure if Korean law protects the interests of the authors and community volunteers that have worked for years on linux and derivatives like uClinux. Many companies do use uClinux in commercial products and do so in a responsible manner, releasing code changes back to the authors and retaining original copyright headers and console output copyrite markers. Jeff (from Rt-Control) and Kenneth (now at Palm) both put a lot of effort into porting a non-mmu version of Linux now known at uClinux. While I have not been able to download or see any source code from the OSK site directly, the mirrored images that I did see seem to make claim that they are the sole authors all rights reserved. I think they may have made a simple mistake. I think Palm would be mighty pissed if they stole their ROM image. I do not support theft of intellectual property Palm's or that of the uClinux Project's. Michael Durrant

OSK did not port Linux to the Palm; they're using the ucLinux kernel. OSK has written a PalmOS compatibility layer (analogous to Wine), which lets you run existing Palm applications as well as Linux apps.

done that micro-controller linux


"There is no spoon" - Neo, The Matrix

Linux on the PalmPilot's been done. Check out http://www.uclinux.org. That's Kenneth Albanowski and Jeff Dionne's group. They've got some cool stuff, in addition to the PalmPilot work, they've got a version of linux that runs on a processor and chipset the size of a SIMM stick. Check it out!

how 'bout a new branch of "cybertools" that all run microLinux on those micro-chips of theirs, here, and make the "motherboard" (if that's what you can call it) the "handle" of the Swiss Army Knife, and the peripherals/ports the flip-out "tools" of the Swiss Army knife.

Neat idea?

Actually, with the ucLinux project, you can load Linux onto a Palm. However, you'd have to be a moron to delude yourself into thinking that Linux is any more useful on a PDA than Windows is. The vast majority of Linux programs are either too large for, incompatible with, or unnecessary on a small palmtop computer. By contrast, PalmOS (and, for that matter, WindowsCE) programs are designed to be used specifically on this hardware platform.

Here is the challenge. Develop an alternative hardware, with more sensible specs. Like 1M flash ROM and 1M RAM, or more. Also, has to be extensible (3 sensors and 3 motors are not enough). Has to fit into Mindstorms case. Alternatively, has to have its own Lego-compatible case with at least 6 motor ports and 6 sensor ports.

This is probably a good place to start.

If priced at $100 (heck, even at $200) I'll buy it.

Then I'll consider to drive it with JINI. (I'll probably wont't do it anyway.)
--

That Linux port is at http://www.uclinux.org/. Looks like a neat little project, but IMHO has yet to deliver anything really seriously practical. But you really do have to admit, it's damned impressive...
Arguably, it would probably run on the Visor, but one never really truly knows until one tries...

As for a PCMCIA handler variant, well, I doubt anyone has a clue about that at the moment 'cause no details about Springboard have been released yet, so we don't know how "genetically similar" it is to PCMCIA.

And a clik drive would be really cool :) But that's ultimately Iomega's call.

Problem is, we still don't have much concrete information. Wait 'till Tuesday. :)



"I don't believe that there is one, single, perfect spiritual way and, in realizing that, obviously you become a lot more open."

Alan -

A lot of effort has been directed toward supporting Linux on palm/handheld/embedded machines. (See http://linux-embedded.com , http://www.uclinux.org , http://www.linuxce.org)

What are your thoughts on these projects and what do you see as the major hurdles to make Linux a viable alternative OS for Palm and WindowsCE machines?

More specifically, when will we see an Open Source flash file system and flash memory drivers for Linux?

There's the uCLinux and the Turbo Tortise to name a couple.

The true nerd's PDA of choice is, of course, the Palm IIIx. Shall we count the ways... It has 4MB of RAM, so you can load it up with countless useless things (like IRPing to fool around with IR printers), flashable OS means you can run Linux on it if you are so inclined...

Let's not be fooled, dudes - a nerd doesn't use a PDA because it's useful, as in managing your shopping list (you order on-line from your local mart anyway) or keeping track of your appointments. We have them because they're way cool - in other words, we have an intuition that they represent a new paradigm, one where bloatware is refreshingly unwelcome.

The IIIe is obviously a ploy to scrounge a bit more market share - but I say, more power to 3Com if it succeeds. Meanwhile, if you're a self-respecting nerd, get a IIIx. ;)

Linux runs on everything from PalmPilot's and Itsy's to IBM System/390 mainframes.

I'd say that, at present, it "limps" rather than "runs" on IBM mainframes; the Web page for S/390 porting efforts says:

A port of the Linux kernel has been started. It compiles. Some things work, most things don't. System calls seem to work. Context switching works as long as you can avoid sneezing near it. It can mount a file system on a good day ...

The Palm port (or, rather, the MMUless microcontroller port, which includes the Palm port) appears to be further along, but I don't know if it's something one could usefully run on a Palm yet or not.