Slashdot Mirror
Linux on Palm
thppt writes "PalmStation is reporting that a company called OSK Inc has ported Linux to the Palm hardware platform; they're dubbing it as a kind of "LinuxCE". They have some screenshots of bootup, running apps, telnetting to the Palm, connecting to the Palm's web server, and multitasking. " They've actually got a WindStone ROM Image for evaluation on their web site. I haven't tried to download it yet, but has anyone else tried this?
OSK did not port Linux to the Palm; they're using the ucLinux kernel. OSK has written a PalmOS compatibility layer (analogous to Wine), which lets you run existing Palm applications as well as Linux apps.
I looked at the website and didn't find the source code...the kernel is GPL'ed, so they have to distribute the source....Did I not look hard enough? Can someone point out where the source is? I guess if it's a clean room implementation, they don't have to distribute the source, but considering how available the linux source code is, I HIGHLY doubt its clean room.
1 1 ms 1 ms 1 ms 144.35.102.1
2 2 ms 2 ms 2 ms gw.ad.SLCC.edu [144.35.1.1]
3 33 ms 7 ms 31 ms 205.124.249.57
4 32 ms 8 ms 31 ms gw-atm6-0-1-core1.uen.net [205.124.0.9]
5 17 ms 28 ms 47 ms 205.171.48.53
6 50 ms 72 ms 50 ms den-core-01.inet.qwest.net [205.171.16.109]
7 77 ms 42 ms 94 ms sfo-core-03.inet.qwest.net [205.171.5.35]
8 93 ms 53 ms 64 ms sfo-brdr-03.inet.qwest.net [205.171.18.54]
9 68 ms 71 ms 72 ms 204.6.117.105
10 139 ms 115 ms 87 ms 38.1.10.11
11 228 ms 226 ms 205 ms 204.6.117.230
12 222 ms 176 ms 197 ms c241.nuri.net [203.255.117.241]
13 3151 ms 2765 ms 3309 ms 210.103.222.78
14 2769 ms 2989 ms 2564 ms www.oski.co.kr [203.255.148.128]
(On a side note, if the product is a ROM chip this would explain why they claim the ROM image is "for evaluation only" - because of course you can't load a ROM image into your Palm, duh)
This looks like a standard build of uClinux-2.0.33. The only thing I see that they have added to uClinux-2.0.33 (user space or kernel) is the boa web server I ported last month and a 4k executable called PalmBox which presumably calls the PalmOS ROM.
This is a copyright violation of uClinux (Kenneth and I hold that copyright) Look at the boot screen, they claim "all rights reserved" Hell no.
This is a copyright violation of PalmOS. If they are providing a ROM image, then it contains a copy of PalmOS. 3Com is going to be pissed!
We're on it, I assume they have just misunderstood the copyright issues as this is not fair use. People are welcome to use uClinux in commercial products, but you can't say "all rights reserved" or call it your own code any more then you can call Linux your own.
http://www.uClinux.org
http://www.uClinux.com
For the _same_ screenshot of the graphics demo,
http://www.uClinux.org/images/peng-pilot-sc.gif
D. Jeff Dionne
fuck you
Who makes the Psion, and where can I get it ?? I have been looking for somthing like this for a while now. This would be really good for using at work. I work as a security guard on the midnight shift. Being able to call my computer ( telnet/ppp ) at home and do some work there would be great!!
Never mind, I jus got sticker shock! For the price of that thing I can find a nice used 486 lap top.
We already have those. They're called "laptops".
PDAs are not laptops, they are PDAs. Stop trying to apply laptop/desktop "Add More MORE MORE" rules to the PDA market, it does not work. Ask the venturecapitalists and hardware/software manufacturers who dropped 1 billion US $$$ into that market with exactly that strategy if you doubt.
"I don't believe that there is one, single, perfect spiritual way and, in realizing that, obviously you become a lot more open."
If we do not change our direction we are likely to end up where we are headed.
I believe the Palm's ROM is actually a flash ROM. It can be reprogrammed through software.
The ROM image for ucLinux also would "break your co-pilot" under Windows. Or, rather, my experience was that it just wouldn't work. And as this new OS was based on ucLinux, I'm not suprised it doesn't work with the windows version of copilot out of the box. I presume it's a problem with WinCopilot, and not some evil design flaw of as both the ucLinux ROM image and this WindStone ROM image both work fine with my stock xcopilot.
You seem to assume "full size keyboard", which is not the case.
:)
:) ).
:)
For the record, I have a GoType keyboard for my Palm III whenever I want to take notes in class (for reasons already discussed here) and yes it is rather sizable. Roughly the size of a WinCE H/PC, except I don't always have to take it along.
The point is, tho Graffitti is a rather nice system, I type far faster than I even write on paper with pen, so I like having a keyboard when I'm entering rather large amounts of information. I don't carry it around with me all the time, this would be a Stupid Thing To Do(tm) for the reasons you mention (too damn big
And besides, there's a company called Think Outside or somesuch that's about to start shipping a keyboard that folds up into a package not much larger than the Palm itself..... vixiewantbadohyes*drool*
"I don't believe that there is one, single, perfect spiritual way and, in realizing that, obviously you become a lot more open."
If we do not change our direction we are likely to end up where we are headed.
as useful on a theoretical front as a Palm running Linux is, and as geeky it is to have a webserver in your pocket, there really is little, if any, practical application to this.
I am working now on an industrial application that requires handheld units to be interfaced via radio modems to a network, all for the purpose of factory floor automation. Obviously, there is a use for Linux on the palm pilot - I'd much rather work with a system where I've got full source code availability, than with PalmOS - which looks good, by the way, but is not open
However, we won't use palm pilots this time round - the technology is just a little to immature. One big problem is that all the radio modems available for the Palm seem to be oriented towards connectivity with cellphone networks. That's not what we want, we need a wireless LAN connection. This is where the consumer orientation of the Palm really shows. Maybe in another year that will change. In the mean time, we'll use older, uglier, heavier, keypad units that have been around for a while.
Life's a bitch but somebody's gotta do it.
It all depends what you want to do with it. I've been looking for a port of Linux to either WinCE or Palm (got a Palm Pro for $100 a year ago, and an uncle who also had a laptop and no use for it gave me his CE), not because I want a better OS for keeping track of names and phone numbers, but because I want to put C/C++ on and learn something usefull in class. (College classes are better then high school, but thats because there are less of them)
I remember back when Slashdot was a pleasant discussion area for smart people with different opinions. Nowadays posting anything that seems to be slightly anti-Linux is a surefire way to get moderated down.
Why moderate this down as "Troll"? I think this is a completely valid point, and worth discussing about. Can a moderator with some common sense please moderate this post up?
Zigbee Central: A Zigbee weblog
Linux was already ported to the Psion 5 :-)
See Calcaria Linux7k project.
Hey fellas, I'm thinking of joining the Palm world and buying a Handspring Visor. Will this work with it? I'd like to try it out at least, it may have some interesting possibilities.
I really would like to know for example if it were be possible to create your own roms for your own and how to perhaps install them? I haven't the faintest idea of how to do anything of the sort. What would be really cool and fast would be to have all the essential utilities and perhaps even a web server on a rom chip so as to prevent anything bad happening to a web page or critical system use. Updating the kernel could be a problem but still solvable.
Slashdot social engineering at it's finest
Although I am a Linux fan, I don't see the point of porting linux to a palm. Since the palm differs so much from a desktop computer, how can it possibly share the same apps, even if it uses the same os? Are there going to be any new applications that will only run on the linux version of palm, and if so, why couldn't they make them for palmos instead, it seems to work pretty well for me?
How does this make it easier? You can already write applications for the Palm using Linux. There is a gcc for writing applications for the Palm.
---
If you overwrite the flash on a Palm it will not return to the default. For example when I upgraded me OS to 3.3 it gave grave warning about not interupting the process.
But having said that if I were putting this thing together I would put on some form of load in a protected area that couldn't be overwritten for safety.
Um... considering that the Visor doesn't have flash ROM, how would you install this on the Visor in the first place?
I would think you wouldn't be able to...
"I don't believe that there is one, single, perfect spiritual way and, in realizing that, obviously you become a lot more open."
If we do not change our direction we are likely to end up where we are headed.
GPL or not ... the removal of copyrights is not fair use. Not sure if Korean law protects the interests of the authors and community volunteers that have worked for years on linux and derivatives like uClinux. Many companies do use uClinux in commercial products and do so in a responsible manner, releasing code changes back to the authors and retaining original copyright headers and console output copyrite markers. Jeff (from Rt-Control) and Kenneth (now at Palm) both put a lot of effort into porting a non-mmu version of Linux now known at uClinux. While I have not been able to download or see any source code from the OSK site directly, the mirrored images that I did see seem to make claim that they are the sole authors all rights reserved. I think they may have made a simple mistake. I think Palm would be mighty pissed if they stole their ROM image. I do not support theft of intellectual property Palm's or that of the uClinux Project's. Michael Durrant
Michael Durrant
...but, why?
PalmOS is very good for what it does.
--
Max V.
There should be a moratorium on the use of the apostrophe.
Max V.
NeXTMail/MIME Mail welcome
The real benefit is not that it gives you a great interface right now. Linux is an "enabling technology" that allows _you_ to design and implement a "Great Interface" (tm) and have it distributed & used all over the world.
That is Linux's real power.
Real
I thought they did this already
There's already an HTTP server that runs on any stock PalmPilot with a TCP/IP/PPP stack (PalmOS 2.0 and above). Serve's MemoPad pages I think...
Try to fit Windoze on this hardware...
MULLY
I was at this site no more than an hour before and it was pretty peppy (considering it's a Korean site and I'm over in hte states), and now after the post I can barely get the banner logo to come up. Boy do we work fast around here...
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I got mine for $250 (plus $12 s/h). Works great! Check on pricewatch.com. The Series 5mx is more expensive, but that's because it's twice as fast, has twice as much memory, and maybe something else. The 5 is all you need for cheap, small connectivity, though. Even almost touch-typeable!
This does make sense. The reason that CE doesn't make sense in many palm tops is because the UI was made for desktops. However, I highly doubt that anyone is going to try and run X on a palmtop ,although, it is possible that they would use TinyX which is a version of the Xlibs made to run on low powered machines, while making it easier for programmers used to X to write applications.
Most likely, a new UI of some sort will be developed. The main hinderance to this is a lack of free hand writing recognition software. It sounds like the above company may have in fact already written some handwriting software, albiet not free stuff.
So, linux on the palm pilot isn't bad. But what might make it actually good? It does have some areas that are better than PalmOS, like networking. Plus, writing C code for PalmOS has some strange quirks. Linux on the Palmtop would probably be good for vertical market applications, as well as the usual group of people who want linux/free software on any computing devices that they use. Personally, I would love a PalmPilot running linux. It might inspire me to write my own hand writing recognition software (I think I know how, but I haven't had the motivation to make that the project that I spend my little shreds of spare time on.).
-- Superlame http://catpro.dragonfire.net/joshua/
I KISS YOU!!
The download link says it's for evaluation only. Assuming the ROM includes a Linux kernel, isn't that a violation of GPL?
Would you care to explain the problem you have with that comment instead of just insulting the poster? He was talking about the future.
Future Generation (more powerfull) palm + wireless net connection + good networking OS == portable web server, no traditional computer nescesary. What in that speculation is not forseeable in the future?
I have a PalmIIIx and a GoType. I use it for meetings and spurious note-taking. I prefer taking my gotype and palm (in a handy case that's of a size only the Sony N505z could compete with) rather than lugging a lappie, especially for what purpose it serves. Notes. No large, StarOffice or Wordperfect size application with rich text and text formatting. Just notes. Thus having a linux micro-kernel, able to load gotype.prc, and run vi and similar software would be my opportunity to bring my os with me when I go (type). But, maybe I am the only one who feels this need... Fair enough. Anyone have a mirror ftp up so I can get this rom? =) -Alex "how much wood would a wood chuck chuck"
Or is my route between here and there just really messed up?
Do not meddle in the affairs of sysadmins, for they are subtle, and quick to anger.
Well, they say that this thing is "Linux based"... but are only offering "evaluation" versions to download?! If they have used the Linux source then surely they must adhere to the GPL and release the source?!
done that micro-controller linux
"There is no spoon" - Neo, The Matrix
At last! Now there's a real reason to hate my Palm.
Linux - The Hostile OS.
AdamL.
My guess would be their "binary compatibility with PalmOS" is the same as FreeBSD's binary compatibility with linux.
LinuxCE(gah) or whatever they wish it to be called can probably run PalmOS apps. This could be good.
And the mirror is coming right along at 150B/s and falling fast.
Well I believe in this. I realy don't have much of a choice not to run linux anyway. I had substandard hardware and little money. I ran dos for a while but it really got frustrating when good open source programs started to not give a working dos version or just not give me the features that I wanted. I believe that the first program that did this was angband. Sometimes even I the greate linux believer feels that sometimes that the software is bloated and slow. Recent experiences with gimp and X give me cause to believe this. Generally however linux is a good solution. Now I do believe that if a group of engineers and human interaction specalists spent time designing the PalmOS than it is probably a very good solution and I would be loathe to replace an OS that I cannot get a new copy of if I want it back (like a CD or something sorry I still cannot connect to the server to see how they get it on there). Eventually companies possibly even microsoft will produce quality stuff that could surpass linux in every area. This is possible if they think they feel the heat. All they have to do is get a great deal of the people from MIT and related schools and pay them bucketloads of money and perhaps they can do something. This is well within the power of Microsoft. I just think that this discovery was a test to see if something could be done. Possibly even something a college student dreamed up for a final project in some CS or EE class. To bring up the poster he most likely did have valid points. I also concur that in fact slashdot is a highly violatile environment. (No I did not moderate this and have not had moderator level access in any way for several months. In fact I only moderated once) What has to be said is that in any group that is pretty much homogenous that many people will react negatively and a small minority will act reactionarily. That is the nature of the beast.
Slashdot social engineering at it's finest
I just want to be able to put linux on my TI-83
Well, it may be TECHNICALLY feasible, but ROM is a piece of hardware, so if you were planning on having your own customized ROM chips made, you'd require a fabrication plant of some sort to stamp out the chip.
Some might say this is a quite a daunting task you've set for yourself...
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If someone from Korea decides to mail a bomb to an address in America and successfully kills someone in America (does not even have to be an American) then they are guilty of murder *in America*. OSK is redistributing to America material in a form which violates American copyright law. They may or may not also be violating Korean law but what is important is that they are definately violating American law.
Preach on brother! Spread the word.
Dear Mr. Dionne, To make things clear, I'd like to introduce myself: I'm CTO of OSK, Inc and work on WindStone Project. We always thanks you RT-guys' contribution to Linux world. But we need to clarify copyright issues you claims. First, we do not use any code or any binary image from Palm OS rom. We implements all the PalmOS API from scratch. As you know, PIC code has 64K size limits. So we build all the Palm compatibility stuff using other processes and merged them into rom image. WindStonePE, 5k code you have seen, is just a glue that activate these palm stuffs. This is a point of honor with us. You must point out which part of our rom image from PalmOS rom. Or you commits a serious libel on us. Second, I cannot understand your copyright claims. It's our mistake not to refer uClinux project in our press release, but we mention that our product based on "uClinux" in our Product page on web. We will publish our source code based on uClinux kernel and you can get the diffs as soon as possible after we clean up the source and make documentation what we have done. The only thing worse than no release is a bad release as you know. The most wierd part of your claims is that Kenneth and you holds uClinux copyright. Which kind of copyright do you have in uClinux or even in Linux Kernel. As far as I understand, uClinux is an GPL'd software and we have right to use it in our product in any form if our product has GPL license. Third, you point out that "All rights reserved" on our splash screen is copyright violation. But this means that other part of WindStone like WindStone PE and WindStone GE does not have open source licences. If this causes misunderstanding that uClinux is our product, then we will modify the copyright section on slash to make things clear. With regards, ---- Kim, Sung-Ryong
Linux does not have this problem. Linux is a low-level OS which does not inherently include a particular user interface. You can access it with the Bourne Shell or with Gnome--or for that matter a Palm-OS look-alike interface.
This is the advantage ucLinux has over WinCE.
The advantage ucLinux has over PalmOS is that it has a versitile architecture that will easily keep abreast with Hardware. PalmOS already has memory heap problems. When standard PalmPilot hardware includes hi-res colour displays, 1 GHZ processors, 512 MB RAM, wireless modems--and voice recognition is commonplace--PalmOS will be as kludgy and buggy as DOS/Windows is today. And ucLinux will shine.
Evaluation is different from "no warranty". You seem to try to explain the former with the later.
And, finally, if you're tired of gpl violations, so are we. That's why we try to stop them. When my rights are disrespected, I try to change the situation, not close my eyes and pretend everything is fine.
rbp (too lazy to log in).
PS: Oh, and please don't scream. Have some manners.
If the Windstone ROM can actually be used, then they've done a lot.
"Reactionaries must be deprived of the right to voice their opinions; only the people have that right." - Mao
Agreed on both points. But today, you can write Palm programs with gcc, and all the usual Posix libc goodies. You can't use X, you can't use Gtk. So this begs the question, what tangible benefits would Linux provide that PalmOS would not?
Exactly. As far as I can tell, using Linux rather than PalmOS wouldn't change either the programming experience or the end-user experience. In particular, there are basically no end-user Linux applications that will run on Palm Linux without first being redesigned to work with a completely different user interface.
Isn't the primary problem with Palm networking the networking hardware, not software?
Interesting, can you give some examples?
What does Linux have to do with that? Do you think it would be easier to write handwriting recognition software under Linux than under PalmOS? Why?
This is awesome! I can't wait to get this. Finally some REAL power packed into that trusty ole Palm Pilot. Do you think gnome will run on this?
I'm actually thinking of using this
for a few personal databases that I want to
have availible to me through the day...
It's not so much of a novelty, but that I don't
want joe average to stumble upon this before
it's ready, but I do want to be able to
run remote tests..... seems like
a cheap way to alpha test a site....
Myddrin
http://208.224.40.114/palm/
/.'ed too hard...
May not have all pics yet; still trying to d/load some. Also, may not be the best quality, working in solaris from school in 8-bit mode. Hope I don't get
-Will
Creator of RPerl, Scouter, Juggler, Mormon, Perl Monger, Serial Entrepreneur, Aspiring Astrophysicist, Community Organiz
>They don't have to, unless you ask, you GPL >commie.
From the GPL license:
3. You may copy and distribute the Program (or a work based on it, under Section 2) in object code or executable
form under the terms of Sections 1 and 2 above provided that you also do one of the following:
a) Accompany it with the complete corresponding machine-readable source code, which must be distributed
under the terms of Sections 1 and 2 above on a medium customarily used for software interchange; or,
b) Accompany it with a written offer, valid for at least three years, to give any third party, for a charge no more
than your cost of physically performing source distribution, a complete machine-readable copy of the
corresponding source code, to be distributed under the terms of Sections 1 and 2 above on a medium
customarily used for software interchange; or,
c) Accompany it with the information you received as to the offer to distribute corresponding source code. (This
alternative is allowed only for noncommercial distribution and only if you received the program in object code or
executable form with such an offer, in accord with Subsection b above.)
------------------------------
I don't have to ask...*they* must tell me how to get it.
> And what are you gonna do with the code
> anyway?
None of your fucking business!
Seems kind of silly to talk about "Competition for CE" as WindowsCE is currently getting its ass kicked by the OS that ships with the Palm.
The cake is a pie
you nead the modified co-pilot becouse the regular
virtion is missing parts of the hardware emulation that plam os dosen't need but linux dose.
The stock ucLinux kernel doesn't run on windows copilot either. This is because windows copilot searches for specific tags in the ROM that are only there in PalmOS. The linux copilot seems to be better about this, although I have had occasional problems with it not identifying the ROM entry point correctly.
Another thing peculiar about the PalmOS flash memory is a 32K write-protected area at the beginning, used to store the serial number, and probably some proprietary stuff. I don't know whether this ucLinux-derivative OS avoids this area, or if they have a custom memory card completely replacing that chip.
-- 2 + 2 = 5, for very large values of 2
Sounds cool [NOT]. Try to type kill -9 (or perl )on your silkscreen. They must be masochistic.
I often use my PalmIII with Ricochet as a terminal to read mail at home or build software at work. Typing "kill -9" never was a problem with graffitti.
Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
Both exist in PalmOS in some hacky and unusable for "normal" developer way -- this is why PalmOS networking can't work with my Metricom/Ricochet modem in "star mode" and has to use PPP emulation.
Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
Any palm III or higher (except a visor or the IIIe special edition) has flashable ROM. This contains a smallrom [not to be replaced unless you REALLY know what you're doing] with minimal boot and debugger code, and a largerom, which contains everything in the smallrom plus an OS and the built-in apps. The rom image, I assume, is only a largerom image and not a widerom (small+large). Thus, if you reset with the up key held down you'd boot back into Palm's smallrom and could reflash back to your old largerom (if you'd kept a copy).
Preferential Voting: easy as 1-2-3
Why the hell does everyone think this guy's site is funny? I thought it was the fucking lamest thing I'd seen on the web in a long time. And its not even 'funny lame', its just plain 'lame lame'. I even saw someplace that wrote an entire article about it. Must have been a slow day in the idiot wing of the office... -Mindcrym
Palm has a true multitasking kernel (AMX). Unfortunately, their license forbids them from giving you the multitasking API. You can use the features, however, if you pay AMX $5000. Or, hackers who don't care about publishing what they've done could just hack into it and not get caught. But we don't have any of those around here, now, do we?
A lot of the power of the linux kernel is page files and swap space and all that jazz. If your volatile and nonvolatile storage are identical, well, as people have already said, there's just not much point.
Preferential Voting: easy as 1-2-3
Have you seen the sp t1700? PalmOS-based, with 802.11. Also, there should be several wireless lan Handspring cards coming out soon, including a bluetooth one from widComm.
Preferential Voting: easy as 1-2-3
Any site that can talk HTTP/1.1 provides information in the header of each document requested indicating whether or not it should be cached. Rob could use this information to programmaticly determine whether or not to cache a given site without asking a human. See RFC-2068 for details.
None of my business...In other worde, you are some high school kid who gets all excited and thinks he is a developer every time he types 'make install'
That is true for the Palm IIIe, but the other Palms have flash ROM. Switching to linux should just involve a quick flash.
--
IF, as I understand it (and I haven't checked, as the server is busy), they are not distributing source with their ROM image, nor giving instruction on how to obtain a physical copy of the source, nor placing source code in the directory from which you download the source. Note that part (c) of the above doesn't apply if they have modified the source. It only applies if they are mirroring the binary image, essentially.
As to the question of what the original poster is going to do with the source, who cares? He has a right to it under the GPL. If he wants it, he must be given it. If they can't give out the source, then they can't distribute their image.
Now, IANAL and I'm not a member of the GPL gestapo, but the original poster was right (assuming they really aren't offering source). Due to the /. effect it's not possible for me to check the veracity of his statement, so the above may be for naught.
That's what EPROMs are for. EPROM burners aren't all that expensive.
You could also build a replacement for the PALM ROM that contained a smaller loader ROM that did nothing more than talk to the PC and a larger amount of RAM to hold the new OS.
This isn't a particularly new concept. In the old Apple ][+, you could load a new OS into a RAM card that replaced the original OS installed in the ROM that came with the system. This didn't work exactly like what I mention above, but you get the idea...
The cake is a pie
Their claim that it's a uClinux-based kernel, and especially their claim that it's binary compatible with PalmOS apps, seems to indicate that they've made kernel modifications. They've got a link (currently quite slashdotted) to a ROM image including said kernel. So they're distributing a modified GPL'ed program: where's the source code?
the interesting thing here is that I posted the twat comment above, not the original poster, who may or may not be a high school student. I still think you're a twat.
Very cool that linux also runs on a palm. Now the next problem is what type of applications to run on it. It will probably take some time before small enough productivity apps are developed. Also there is the problem of supporting all the mostly propietary communication stuff that usually runs on top of a palm computer.
Jilles
The original Palm Pilots had their OS in ROM, but the newer ones (Palm 3 and up I believe) have the OS in flash. If you put a copy of Linux on your
Palm, make sure you save the original copy of the OS if you ever want to revert back.
Speaking of which, is there a flash utility that runs under Linux so that you can revert back?
If I gave my palm ethernet access..and put ucLinux on there, is there any small HTTP server available I could run on it?
Might be interesting to try out...
EC
EverCode
Dual boot???
11 was a racehorse
12 was 12
1111 Race
12112
-Cyberllama
As an embedded systems program who designs "o-scopes and logic analyzers" (well, communications service monitors, which have 'scope and analyzer functions built in) I am very glad to see people saying this.
Now, make yourselves heard to the marketing people at companies like HP (now Agilent Technologies), Tektronix, Anritsu, Yokigawa, and (if you buy spectrum analzyers or communications service monitors) IFR Systems (my employer). Tell them you'd rather see penguins than broken glass. PLEASE!. They look at me like I'm on drugs when I suggest this (actually, things are getting better, and we are actually considering a Linux-based design within my department. Now, to get approval...)
www.eFax.com are spammers
Calm down...obviously posting to Slashdot has excited you so much that you keep clicking submit. Let's all take a deep breath....there, much better
consider a psion 5mx www.psion.com
they've got the best keyboards of any palmtop, 16MB ram, RS232 and IR ports, 36 MHz ARM CPU, preemptive multitasking EPOC32 OS, tcp stack (telnet clients, ftp etc. are available) - they come with a (good) web browser, including a Java 1.1 VM.
software
here
or here
Developer info here
Just tell me *WHY* do you want a keyboard for a palm?
I've had my palm for a year and a half now, and I love it. The small size and nifty apps have really made a difference. At times (like when travelling), I do, however, want to be able to write larger pieces of text (notetaking during sessions, working on a paper in flight, that kind of thing), and using graffiti is just too much work once you move beyond a few sentences. At the same time, I hate the idea of having to tote around a laptop just to write some text. A psion would fit perfectly here, but I find it too big for everyday use (won't fit my pockets). Having the ability to bring along a small keyboard during travels (esp. one as small as that new one) would mean I still only have to bring the palm with me.
Trust the Computer. The Computer is your friend.
If you want to revert back to a PalmOS image, like the 3.3 that just came out, you could follow the instructions as if you interupted the image transfer. It basically puts the palm in a debug state that just sits and waits for an image to be uploaded, the upgrade to 3.3 has full instructions on hoe to do this.
We have a rather decent palmtop OS, and now we have to replace it with Linux? Why?
/. ? (can't think of the guys name): "Don't ask a nerd why, just nod your head and back away slowly".
Remember that sig used frequently here on
For me, that says it all. I for one can't wait to play around with this!
>
:-)
> Dear Mr. Dionne,
>
> To make things clear, I'd like to introduce myself: I'm CTO of OSK, Inc and
> work on WindStone Project.
Got to hear from you...
>
> We always thanks you RT-guys' contribution to Linux world. But we need to
> clarify copyright issues you claims.
>
> First, we do not use any code or any binary image from Palm OS rom. We
> implements all the PalmOS API from scratch. As you know, PIC code has 64K
> size limits. So we build all the Palm compatibility stuff using other
> processes and merged them into rom image. WindStonePE, 5k code you have
> seen, is just a glue that activate these palm stuffs.
Of course that is just a stub... It's the rest of the code I'm concerened
about. It looks to be smack in the middle of the uClinux kernel. If you've
linked Palm code in there, that's a problem. If you've linked proprietary
code in there, that's a problem. It looks an awful lot like Palm code to
me... Kenneth can tell for sure. And I'd really love to be completely wrong!
>
> This is a point of honor with us. You must point out which part of our rom
> image from PalmOS rom. Or you commits a serious libel on us.
Take a look around 0x0000B100 Again around 0x000475E0 Why is this stuff
in the middle of the kernel? If you tell me that's your GPL'd mods to
uClinux, that's great! Otherwise it looks like... well, it doesn't look
good. Make me look like a fool, I really want to be wrong. We have
to raise the uClinux flag to keep it safe and to keep _us_ from getting
into trouble if something is not right!
>
> Second, I cannot understand your copyright claims. It's our mistake not to
> refer uClinux project in our press release, but we mention that our product
> based on "uClinux" in our Product page on web. We will publish our source
Fair use of the term "uClinux" is using it for things which are derived
from it (at least that's what I call fair). That applies here. I'd like
people to help wave that flag... If it's derived from uClinux, please call
it that.
> code based on uClinux kernel and you can get the diffs as soon as possible
> after we clean up the source and make documentation what we have done. The
> only thing worse than no release is a bad release as you know.
I agree, others here will (and have) disagreed. But it's inappropriate to
release binaries only first of previously GPL'd code. That's not allowed.
>
> The most wierd part of your claims is that Kenneth and you holds uClinux
> copyright (in SlashDot). Which kind of copyright do you have in uClinux or
You may be a little confused by the whole GPL Copyleft thing. Each and every
person who has worked on a piece of GPL code can (and often do) retain
copyright on that code. They grant you a license under the terms of the
GPL, it's still their code. The GPL says you can change it, and you
can add your own copyright for your changes, and in the end everyone who
has worked on it owns the copyright. But it's still GPL. Most of the
patches to Linux that make it uClinux are copyright Kenneth Albanowski
and D. Jeff Dionne, but the list of contributors (and therefore copyright
holders) grows all the time
> even in Linux Kernel. As far as I understand, uClinux is an GPL'd software
> and we have right to use it in our product in any form if our product has
> GPL license.
Yes. That's not the issue.
>
> Third, you point out that "All rights reserved" on our splash screen is
> copyright violation. But this means that other part of WindStone like
> WindStone PE and WindStone GE does not have open source licences. If this
No, that's not what the spash screen says. It says, and I quote...
"WiNDSTONE
Palm OS clone
Based on linux kernel 2.0.33
OSKinc
(C) 1999 All rights reserved"
We'd like you to say uClinux (it was a lot of work and we want people to
know about the project). Even if we want that, you can call it Smelly Dog
and you're still fine (please don't)! You can add a copyright statement
for OSKinc, that's fine. But you can't remove the copyright statements that
print on bootup that others have put there. And lastly, you can't
reserve all rights, the GPL forbids that.
> causes misunderstanding that uClinux is our product, then we will modify the
In the form it's in in your ROM image, it _is_ your product. Please _do_ add
(C) OSK inc. But it's also mine, and Kenneth's and Alax Cox and Linus and...
> copyright section on slash to make things clear.
>
> With regards,
> ----
> Kim, Sung-Ryong
> http://www.oski.co.kr
> teoh@oski.co.kr
>
I've gone through crappy digital organizer after crappy digital organizer (this was not too recent btw) and I have to say, all I really want is something portable with a bit of power that I can hack. The palm cost enough that I wouldn't THINK about buying one if I couldn't run Linux on it.
In fact, to date, the only PDA that looks reasonably useful to me is the Sony Viaio (or however you spell it ;) The little pentium-powered handheld sublaptop. So you say, "but it's not a PDA". WHO CARES? It's what I want. A little system that can do some processing on the road, that I can uplink to my main computers.
End of story
The Vaio's a nice machine, but it hasn't crossed the size quantum. There are three sizes of computers that are interesting: ``it sits on my desk,'' ``it fits in a backpack,'' and ``it fits in a pocket.''
Now I've got big pockets, but the tinier Vaio still doesn't fit in them. And the keyboard is so small that my thumbs rub together when I'm on the home row. Also, it doesn't have a serial port, only USB (which means you can't use Ricochet with it.) (The bigger Vaio has a plug-on port-replicator thingy that gives you a serial port, but not the smaller version.)
First of all, the point is not to *replace* palmOS. The reason to port Linux to the palmtop is the same as the reason it's being ported to the mac, alpha, etc...
Linux is a cool OS and it's cool to see what you can make it run on. If linux on the palmtop ever actually becomes usefull, it will probably be what I use if/when I get a palmtop. It would be a good development for everyone.
I don't think anyone will be saying 'you have to use linux!', I think it will just allow users more freedom of choice.
P.S. They will probably come up with a new UI which doesn't involve typing or X. Which would also be good--more freedom of choice. I say go for it, and then port the UI back to the desktop and see what happens.
>OSK is redistributing to America material in a form which violates American copyright law.
OSK aren't redistributing to America it lives on a server in Korea, anyone who downloads it is doing the redistribution.
To be fair, CE has memory protection in it which separates memory spaces, and uClinux doesn't. So WinCE actually has a technical advantage...
Didn't 1984 get released in 1949 due to Orwell being sick as hell in a sanitarium?
In case you don't know why this is funny, it refers to an unintentionally amusing personal homepage recently doing the rounds of the mailing lists. (I believe NtK mentioned it too.)
Like the Visor, IIIe devices are not flashable.
Your choices are:
III/IIIx
V/Vx
VII (and if it could handle InetLib and WebLib, oh, baby. I'm going to use up my 1000k/mo on palm.net in no time!)
TRG Pro (which you can't buy quite yet)
TRG SuperPilot-equipped PalmPilots
Yeah, personally, I'm thrilled about running Linux on a 16MHz (well, 20MHz in my Vx) 68k-derivative. It'll be so powerful, with such an intuitive user interface, I just don't know what to do with myself!
Ooh! When can I run the GIMP on my Timex DataLink watch? That would be spiffy!
String a bunch of them together and build a Beowulf cluster on Palms? When someone ports OS/390 MVS to my wristwatch then I'll be impressed.
I've had my palm for a year and a half now, and I love it. The small size and nifty apps have really made a difference. At times (like when travelling), I do, however, want to be able to write larger pieces of text (notetaking during sessions, working on a paper in flight, that kind of thing), and using graffiti is just too much work once you move beyond a few sentences. At the same time, I hate the idea of having to tote around a laptop just to write some text. A psion would fit perfectly here, but I find it too big for everyday use (won't fit my pockets). Having the ability to bring along a small keyboard during travels (esp. one as small as that new one) would mean I still only have to bring the palm with me.
That's exactly why I'd want vi; most command are single alphanumeric keystrokes or a sequence of two or three keys -- no need for metakeys, no need for arrows and no need for extended keys.
Trust the Computer. The Computer is your friend.
SHUT DA HELL UP ALREADY, I AM TIRED OF THE FREAKING VIOLATION OF GPL, GNU BLAH BLAH BLAH.
IF IT SAYS IT IS FOR EVALUATION, THEN IT IS FOR FREAKING EVALUATION. SIMPLE. THAT MEANS, YOU DON'T WHINE AT THEM FOR SUPPORT AND INFO AND SHIT, JUST USE IT AND TRY IT OUT. IT DOESN'T MEAN THEY WILL CHARGE YOU AN ARM AND A LEG FOR THE FINAL PRODUCT. ARGGGGGH.
------ Curiosity killed the cat. {satisfaction brought it back | it didn't die ignorant | lack of it is killing mankind
I see people asking what use this is and blah, blah, blah, well, this is not replacing palm OS, because it can also run palm apps.
"The WindStone PE module provides binary compatibility with PalmOS®, the PDA OS developed by 3Com Palm Computing®. With WindStone PE, thousands of PalmOS® applications can be used without any modification. "
So, as you can see, you have not lost the functionality of your palmOS, you have only gained the functionality of linux. Quit your whinings already.
------ Curiosity killed the cat. {satisfaction brought it back | it didn't die ignorant | lack of it is killing mankind
Get a Psion 5mx...
Preemptive multitasking OS with full tcp stack...
Really, EPOC32 outshines PalmOS. And I've got an ickle bitty keyboard (that is notheless a joy to use)
anyway, WinCE = wince...
/.'d already?
> Try to type kill -9 (or perl )on your silkscreen
;-}
Simple solution for the kill -9 problem: port Doom Sysadmin to the Palm!
Hallo, dies ist ein Test.
------------------
------------------
You may like my a cappella music
You wrote:
It is a PalmOS based machine with a slot that will (eventually) take an 802.11 card
WHERE did you hear (or find) this???
That would really solve some problems for me...
802.11 based PalmOS system would be killer....
Walk around the office, with a live network connection, server/database access.
any pointers please???
Help achieve Liberty in your lifetime - join the Free State Project - http://www.freestateproject.org
I wonder what Micros~1's reaction to this will be. Portable, hand held devices are the holy grail of the industry at the moment. As The Great Convergence nears, portable, wireless devices will become increasingly prevalent in our lives. They're basically the next PC platform.
If Micros~1 doesn't assert their platform dominance early on in this market space, they risk missing the "next big thing", and their precious profit margin.
I'm curious about the "binary compatibility with PalmOS" that it claims. While I haven't the faintest clue about what it took to port Linux to the Palm, I'd like some more info about this aspect of the technology.
Also, anyone know about the licencing of the product?
Anthony
^X^X
Segmentation fault (core dumped)
"I think any time you expose vulnerabilities it's a good thing." -Attorney General Janet Reno
What's all this about. First we rant on about windows not being made for palmtops, but for desktops, and now we put Linux on the palmtop.
Exacly which of the two makes more sense than WinCE does? Graphics mode? (fit that in 8Mb) or the console mode? Sounds cool [NOT]. Try to type kill -9 (or perl )on your silkscreen. They must be masochistic.
We have a rather decent palmtop OS, and now we have to replace it with Linux? Why?
----------------------------------------------
the pun is mightier than the sword
Maybe if Kenneth and you got off your duffs and developed a version of uClinux that actually booted on a Palm 0S device instead of noodling around with this "linux on a SIMM" crap we wouldn't be having this discussion. Copyright on uClinux? Then there's no waaaay you can GPL it as well, fellas. Can't have your cake and eat it too. In fact I'll bet Linus would have something to say about this. If it is determined that OSK actually did develop the PalmOS hooks in a clean room, these guys might be able to sue you for slander/libel.
This is starting to become an annoying pattern that happens. You have two choices when reading things that appear on
Would it be possible to cache the page and images on some local
- Persnickity
I've been looking high and low for a VI editor for my palm, but to no avail. "vi on a pen computer? You're out of your mind!", I hear several people cry. Well, add a keyboard to the palm (and I really want the one posted a few days ago), and suddenly vi makes a lot of sense; no need for a lot of special keys or trying to wrap your fingers around metakey combinations on a cramped keyboard. All it takes is a basic alphanumeric keyboard, escape, shift and ctrl.
If running linux is what it takes, then so be it...
Trust the Computer. The Computer is your friend.
i don't know much about copyrights or gpl, but it doesn't look like OSK removed copyright info from uCLinux. when i boot WindStone i get several mentions of uCLinux.
= =============================
= =============================
"
CDEFG
uClinux/MC68328
Flat model support (C) 1998 Kenneth Albanowski, D. Jeff Dionne, TSHG Ltd.
"
"
uClinux version 2.0.33 (lcw@dev.oski.co.kr) (gcc version 2.7.2.3) #1735 Thu Nov 11 13:13:56 KST 1999
"
"
===============================================
Welcome to uClinux/Pilot!
uClinux release 2.0.33, build #1735 Thu Nov 11 13:13:56 KST 1999
uClinux/Pilot release 1.0.0, build #889 Thu Nov 11 13:03:34 KST 1999
===============================================
"
"
uClinux command shell (version 1.1)
"
please explain what they actually did wrong here.
- uncon
I suppose it might be nice to have a telnetable Palm, although the graphics environment part seems a little useless. I just wish they had picked a better analogy/nickname than LinuxCE because I can't be the only one who sees that it could be shortened to LiCE....
Hey, Moderator! The above 2 posts are the most important in this whole discussion - why only "Score:1..."????
I think that this is kind of excessive. I think that the idea of a GUI Linux for small computers is interesting, but the point is that the reason I don't like CE is it is bloated. PalmOS does a great job at organizing my life, and keeping track of basic info. I don't really thing the nature of the Palm Pilot architecture in general lends itself to power computing or to an environment where a Linux based OS would be advantageous. Now, don't get me wrong, I think this is cool as hell, but more like geek eye candy. I think perhaps some of the cooler aplications would be to get a Linux based GUI embedded on systems like o-scopes and logic analyzers where CE seems to have a strangle hold. Seems to me that using a Linux solution might reduce costs here. Finally, does anyone know if this will work on the Handspring Visor? I'm kind of a sucker for its pretty colors. but I', kind of dismayed by lack of linux support. Is this compatible (since the Visor runs palm OS), and are there any plans of creating Linux software to support uploads/downloads from the visor?
What a difference a few years makes.
The palm pilot is about as powerful, in many respects, as the first computer I loaded linux on. It was a 33mhz 386 with 8m ram. It thought it was kick ass, but then that was 1993. Point being, the "quantative" arguments, that only a given os is any good at a given hardware performance point, is actually a *qualitative* argument.
Somebody help me out: How much does a dragonball processor, 8M of ram, a teeny lcd display and a few buttons cost to manufacture? And how much does a palm IIIx cost? When I first saw a disassembled palm pilot, I realized that palm was making a fortune on software, since the hardware was very inexpensive. So, what would happen if there were a viable free OS for the dragonball? For starters, you'd see knock-off palm pilots appearing on the market for *under 50 bucks*. Anybody who makes a calculator today could easily manufacture one. Theyd probably be faster with more storage too, since they would all run the same (free) OS and could only compete on price performance.
It's a platform. Time will tell if it's useful, but I'd sure love to see the OS unbundled from the hardware, to let the competition converge on the *real* price of a handheld computer.
you, sir, are a twat. I don't know about you, but I don't disclose random ideas until I've realised them...
In other words, I was right, you are some high school punk. See you after Social Studies, dude.
Because some people have the mistaken impression that Linux, like Windows, can be made to fit all roles from tiny little handheld devices to large scale clustered supercomputing. Just because it CAN doesn't mean it is any good at it. Linux on a handheld device is kind of pointless since, like you said, PalmOS does the job much better than Linux ever could. Likewise, if you're really going to build a supercomputer you go to SGI and build a clustered system instead of fscking around with ethernet connections between cubes/nodes. So, basically, people are trying to make Linux into Windows and that is the sad part. NT is excellent for the average user's desktop, Linux is good for advanced unix users and up to mid-range server usage.. workgroup settings, etc. Solaris takes over after that scaling up to near-mainframe level computers, and then you have the dedicated stuff that the average user will never interact with being taken care of by IBM or SGI. I no more want Linux to dominate the desktop and server markets than I want Windows to. Why can't we accept certain OS's have their places and they work best in those places and leave it at that? Use standard, open, interoperable protocols and everyone can talk to everyone without caring what OS they use. That is the OSI 7-layer model!
How the heck do you do do anything ELSE with this "evaluation"? I'd love to see it run Linux apps as well as Palm apps, but I can't make it do it. I tried to install a Telnet app, but the two I tried crash the emulator.
--- Gwen
LinuxCE is taken. http://www.linuxce.org
I just dont think the Palm platform is feature laden enough (right now atleast) to fully take advantage of linux..I admit, I still a newbie to linux, but something like that other device mentioned, which had wireless ethernet, 800x600 screen..tablet form factor,USB.. sounds like a much better candidate.. Like other people said, PalmOS does a good job of acting as a personal organizer
The fact that it needs a modified Copilot means nothing. Lots of programs that run fine on Palm platforms don't run at all (bus error) on the emulator. The problem is that [Palm OS compliant] programs are a subset of [Programs that run on PalmOS]. However, the emulator is built only to run compliant or mildly misbehaved programs.
Runs on Emu -> Runs on Palm
Runs on Emu !- Runs on Palm
the interesting thing here is that I posted the twat comment above, not the original poster, who may or may not be a high school student (I am not, however. I'm not even American). I still think you're a twat.
hmmm... this only appears to work on the XCopilot, not any of the other copilots. "runs on the XCopilot emulator" If it is compatible with all of the Palm OS, why would it work only under a UNIX native emulator?
psst...you're shouting. you've made a bigger ass of yourself than the most rabid GPL purist. let up on the caps lock key already......
For the average shmoe it could mean that they really don't have to buy a whole bulky computer or even a laptop. They just have to get a Palm and they can have their own web page with cgi and all the extras!
/sarcasm tag, not finding one]
[boggle]
[looking for
[boggle again]
[wondering what happened to natural selection which was supposed to prevent this kind of thing]
[giving up]
Kaa
Kaa
Kaa's Law: In any sufficiently large group of people most are idiots.
Why do this? I am in complete agreement with you...for now. But what about 3 years from now when a handheld is as powerful as a pentium computer? Sure, Palm OS 6 might be created to take advantage of this new power, but what if there is already a micro-OS based on a very powerful and stable kernal meant for larger systems?
As our handhelds become more powreful, we are going to demand more from them. Imagine hotdocking your palm-sized computer into a cradle attached to a full-size keyboard, mouse, and monitor. All of a sudden you have a computer that is at once a desktop and can fit in your pocket!
I don't think any of this is too far-fetched. If anything, we just need to make sure we don't limit ourselves like we did in '80 thinking that we'd never need more that 640K of RAM! Well, my palm has 4meg and it's smaller than the chips that made up the 256K in my original IBM PC
In Vino Veritas
I'm afraid the plam clue bus had passed me by, but I keep thinking that I should get one. Can someone please explain to me:
1) Is this something that would be installed over the palm OS ? (ie. you would replace the palm os with this ?)
2) IF I install something over the plam os, can I re-install the plam os at a later time ?
Well, I was able to get the ROM running on the modified version of co-pilot but when I installed FPSUtil to check out the specs the OS are reporting, my calibration went all haywire ... now I can't even get into the right menu to fix it.
... why do they need a modified version of co-pilot? I mean, if it's not gonna work on stock palm hardware (emulated or not), why bother?
Another thing I can't figure out is, if it's Palm compatible
Anyway, it looks cool I guess even if it was dog slow, has a HUGE footprint, and broke my co-pilot when I installed an app.
With a palm VII and a pocket web server, imagine the possibilities. My pack of ninja attack Aibo's could be controlled directly off the web. Also, why not overclock one of these bad boys and play some GL Doom? Do that on palm OS! -Spazimodo
-Spazimodo
Fsck the millennium, we want it now.
Fsck the millennium, we want it now.
Millennium Crisis Line: 0890 900 2000 [calls cost 50p/min]
/usr/sbin/traceroute
No Text
can somebody mirror the rom file as well as the screenshots? the oski site is slashed all to hell, and all the 'mirrors' have is the screenshots, which doesn't show much other than copilot and an xterm. i want to fiddle, and i need the rom to do it!
- Entertaining Bits from the Ancient Kernel Tree
hmm.. what about linux on a newton mp2100?
maybe not the speediest processor (strongARM vs dragonball? anyone have benchmarks?) or the most RAM, hell i don't even think it's got flashable rom, but it's got a bigger screen, if nothing else...
:)
- Entertaining Bits from the Ancient Kernel Tree
That sounds kind of stupid doesn't it? But keep reading it's not as limited as that. For the sake of brevity I won't go into each detail. I think I'll post an article on my web page with my thoughts on this subject (and I'll go into details). See the links below.
First I have a PIIIx (4M of ram expandable to 8M and OS3.3), This is one tool I find very useful. I'm also a home automation (HA) enthusiast and I've been pondering/considering using inexpensize items to interface to my HA systems. I have a gameboy, a TI-85, an HP28C, a TRS model 100 and the Palm Pilot. Each has it's limitations, the PIIIx/Visor has several things going for it. But it also has limitations, one of which is you can not task switch an application. You can only do 1 thing with it at a time (this is not a limitation of the processor, I think). By adding multitasking you can send and receive messages (not limited to mail, other types of messages also) run an app, have another app interrupt you to let you know something else is going on (not just appointments or timed todos). If I can get an 802.11 interface connectivity/flexiblity would be further increased. There are still lots of problems to overcome and most of what I am describing sounds very silly but the Palm Pilot provides an simple to use and flexible system to interface to other things. And with the cost of the Visor these devices may just replace the TV remote as a simple device found in just about every home (at least in the US).
One other thing, has anyone noticed that the Palm Pilots are only a little larger than the report pads used on Star Trek?
--
Linux Home Automation - Neil Cherry - ncherry@home.net
http://members.home.net/ncherry (Text only)
http://meltingpot.fortunecity.com/lig htsey/52 (Graphics)
Neil Cherry - Linux Smart Homes For Dummies
This seems like it would be a great idea. But on second thought, what real benifits is it going to give us. The biggest problem with the hand helds is not the OS, it is the interface. Just adding Linux as the underlying operating system isn't going to automatically give us a great interface. And it certainly isn't necessary to a great interface. I've got nothing against Linux, but I can't see that it solves the problem of Palmtop OS's by itself.
Mike Eckardt
meckardt@yahoo.nospam.com
http://www.geocities.com/meckardt
Since these devices have the OS on the ROM, you need to replace the ROM to replace the OS. Hence the mention of a ROM image in the 'Linux on Palm' article. If you install a replacement over the OS, then getting the original back only requires a reset of the device.- --
----------------------------------------