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Inexpensive Linux/BSD Handhelds
cloudscout writes, "The latest craze in handheld computing isn't the new Palm IIIc, it's the IBM WorkPad z50 currently being unloaded at ridiculously low prices by all sorts of discount Internet retailers. This device runs Windows CE 2.11 by default, however, a successful NetBSD Port means that this device could be the first widespread *NIX handheld. There's even a Linux Port in the works. The initial blowout saw these devices selling for under $250, but the huge demand has driven that price up to the $400 range now. Still cheap for a nearly full-sized system with 640x480 color LCD. "
This looks kinda neat in the same porn stars do...I wont have one. To me PDA is all about size. I haven't laid out the cash for a Visor yet, because I am afraid I would not carry it conveniently. So, why buy a PDA that is the size of notebook. Yes, it is cheap. But go get a palmtop, if you are gonna get that big at least get alittle power to go with it. Linux port is interesting, but does not really enhance the usability much. If IBM did dicontinue as an earlier post says, I can see why. Of Course maybe I am just cynical
GRUMPY! I run FreeBSD and am seen as a main stream SELL OUT to my BSD brethren. I used an AMIGA. so. wanna make something of it? And I almost have The HURD booting on it.... ahhhh what a beautiful copper list. HAM it up HAMMY.
some digital wireless protocols are pretty darn secure... try to "sniff" CDMA
This is not even the right product, I have only seen one post that has the correct link. This is is for another workpad, not the z50
how itsy is itsy? my dogs name is itsy... shes 60 pounds. do they give specs?
...if you actually call it a 186.
Ever notice all the netbsd ports to all those processors embeded in that japanese crap?
...is middle school out already? Gettin' late in the day.
I got my Compaq 166MHz laptop with 32 MB of RAM, 33.3 K modem, and network card, with a new carrying case and port replicator for $700. The laptop was used and in perfect working order. Slackware was the only Linux distro I could successfully install. The X Server was so easy to get running.
Hate to ask a dumb question.. Anyone actually have or use a unix hadheld that they could tell us about? Don't want to debate wheather OpenBSD is better than debian is better than... I use `em all..
Note for the makers. Include easy to remove subcard with space to solder in more ram/flash, and instructions on howto. auto battery input. Say you run low. easy, just sacrifice mobile phone battery. If the pc was smart, it would take most any voltage - 1 for sound speaker, one on my phone, one on my answering machine, one for my phone charger All I ask is that I have a set of jumper leads, and anything between 3 and 19 volts ac ofr dc will work. Hey maybe the mil has this idea.
heh man that thing looks to good to be true. so I'm guessing it is =\
nice page!
Not nearly as grumpy as non-Intel Linux fans...
Hey, I'm not grumpy any more.. just got Linux running (finally) on a SparcServer 1000, 4 CPUs, 250 GB of RAID disks, abandonded by Sun and left as surplus at this university...
-Chris Wing
wingc@engin.umich.edu
last for ages. If its good enough for satellites, then they should make em for consumers to. But failing that, you can crack open old nicd battery packs, and repack them with good metal hydrides off new obsoleted mobile phone surplus cheaply. And underclock the cpu by 10% .
How much time did it take to setup the OS and X on the Z50?
How big should the flash ram be?
How fast does it run?
Does the soundcard, and all accessories work?
He asked for current real working support didn't he? What could be eaiser? Well not everyone can code.
I'd like a mod so that linux will work with an experimental quantum processor. What could be eaiser?
Having the source code makes life so much more bareable, but it doesn't make it as easy as peeling potatoes. And yes Potato can have an E in it when its plural.
humor is almost allways off topic.
/. will be dull without humor.
if you don't think its not funny thats ok, but maybe someone else will.
btw, this is off topic too. and it is not funny. enjoy.
Stop acting like we ALL use Intel machines. Especially those x86 style shitbags are old-technology and IMHO we should have abandonded them years ago... I also hate it that the majority is led to believe that the only OS's are Windows (of some kind), MacOS and Linux. There ARE better OS's around for other even non-intel machines. besides that Crusoe chip wont be along for a couple of YEARS....
I purchased a z50 and wrote up my impressions, at http://www.pconline.com/~erc/ce/workpadz50.htm. This provides a brief run-down on Windows CE and covers details about the device (running CE). Hope this helps, -Eric
Yeah, except if grandma doesn't already have a link to LDP, she ought to be able to find it with no trouble, dontcha think?
Uhhh...dumbass...it uses code morphing to emulate intel x86 instructions. Linus works for Transmeta...do you really think that he's not done even a little work on his own to make sure this will work?
The product is discontinued -- I don't think IBM will offer a version with no OS/different OS.
Lookit this way -- sure MS is getting their licence fee, but meanwhile IBM is taking a big loss on the hardware. IBM can afford to lose the money, but when they can look at the books, they'll think "That's the last time we mess with Windows CE", eliminating an significant amount of potential revenue for MS.
Uhh 14 yr old dumbass... Transmeta has not said Crusoe will run Mac OS X, ect at this time. They made no guarantees that they ever would set it so it could, even though it may have the physical setup to do so. Transmeta did not open source the tech of Crusoe, they open sourced their version of Linux. Which they had to do anyways.
You also make an ass out of yourself thinking that Linus has the time or desire to "make sure this will work" on ever OS out there. Linus most likely has set objectives in Transmeta and won't cross the company's policies related to Crusoe technology and platforms, UNLESS Transmeta says OK. I have a feeling Linus T. is busy enough not to worry about having to take care of your pipe dreams anyways.
...to use the term "Word Processor with Delusions of Grandeur". For some reason, people just nod and slowly back away...
with a huge battery life of a week or more, running a curosoe. When are they going to make some decent batteries? Maybe I should just carry a gasoline generator and plug the ac adaptor into it? I love that 2 ~ 3 hour battery life my lappy packed without power saving modes.
We need portable computer powered by newfangled fuel cell that burns ethyl alcohol...Just buy a pint of Everclear and pour two-thirds into the fuel-cell and pour the remaining 1/3 pint into the geek at the keyboard. 8-}
Here's what I use my own personal (used, old) laptop for: Email, light web-browsing, and irc on the couch in the living room. I don't have the space to actually put a desktop there without sacrificing something else, but I hate spending almost all of my time in the computer room, especially since my chair sucks and the baseboard heater's broken.
Also, I have a QuickCam hooked up to the laptop. Portability is a definite massive bonus for that.
But that's just me.
Heh... I want to make a strongarm laptop. A good low power RISC laptop made for Linux would be cool. Basically all you need is a Netwinder and put on a screen, keyboard and a nice mouse (I would like a 3 button mouse with a pointer stick mouse, myself. those touchpads suck ;)
:)
Of course those will never be made, though, and I'll have to stick with x86 junk. Even if it is that transmeta chip emulating it.
Only other UNIX laptop that I know of are those HP or Sun ones, but they are way too pricy for me.
Heh, I'm posting this from a machine built around a mips r4400 cpu.. its a nice desktop machine built by SGI, called Indy... you can pick up 2nd hand Indies for anywhere between $200 and $1500,- on ebay and in 2ndhand computer stores, so most people can afford to run a desktop on something else then x86... Oh, and it runs linux as well if you want..
;-). For PDAs.. hmm... I'd like to see a ppc based pda, tho I can live with the moterola 68k and mips r3k based machines I use right now, even if those are approx 2 generations older then those found in your average pc
With regard to Crusoe, what you say is true for the current implementation but the way it works inside is maybe not more advanced then a mips r10k cpu, but it is simply a much smarter way of doing it for the purpose of making a generic cpu for portable devices, and as such its a very cool cpu from a technical point of view... You are right of course that the direct result of that is close to nothing coz it acts like a stupid x86.
That does in no way make it older technology then your pda running on an r3k mips cpu however.
The r3k is for mips what something like a 386 is in the intel world, looking at the technology it requires to build one. The last r3k based workstations were built around 10 years ago.
The pentium class cpus do a lot that I find insane, but the technology they employ to do so compares better to r4600 mips cpus and simular then to the cpu found in your average pda (and the r4600 is a hybrid that is almost 2 generations newer then the r3k) A mips cpu that compares well to a pentium II and II cpu is something like an r5k, whereas things like the r10k and r12k go beyond anything intel builds for the pc market (tho Intel does make things way beyond this)
If you happen to be looking for a relatively low cost, but very cool risc cpu, try to get your hands on an i860 transputer board + software for in your pc.. or better, get an i860 based machine
Anyway, RISC is not new, its in fact quite likely to be older then the average age of the posters on slashdot, so do not call it new technology or such (maybe newer then plain cisc, but hybrid cpus have been around since at least end 70s and early 80s, which combine the advantages of both ideas, and the area of very large word instruction sets is virtually unexplored still) . Not that risc is not cool, it is, but it isn't the coolest thing since sliced bread or whatever, and compared to very large word instruction sets it is not even old, but more like ancient technology. (one of the nice features of a very large instruction set is that where risc simplifies the decoding process, vlis eliminates the decoding alltogether, making it more efficient in that area by defenition)
The z50 is discontinued. You can likely find it at any of the online surplus/auction dealers.
Dratmaster
...by your girl Suzy. Man, what a slut she was. I think yours was only cock she wasn't sucking. I may have laughed at that third leg, but I sure liked that third tit.
wrong. 33.6 Kbps
Many architecture types consider the first RISC CPU to be the 65c02 -- which was in thousands of Apple ]['s by 1979..
nec13.html
boy i sure am glad they are selling at rock bottom prices.
I think playing MP3s in a bearable quality is more of a problem then running a small X for your average PDA ;P
Yep, I'm a BSD Bigot. I run openbsd.
I still stand by my post. s/he's either a troll or a fuckwit.
Could have been a contender? I'm deeply offended! You must really hate the Amiga if you just say that it could have been a contender. Anti-Amiga bigot! Why do you persecute us Amigans?!?
If you would like to earn that informative markup that you got, how about telling us which PDS he recommended?
Old stuff == cheap stuff. Important for all of us geeks still in school/on a budget.
Crusoe will NOT currently run any OS you want.
When I called CDW about buying a z50, the rep said that IBM is actually in the process of making a newer model. And, IBM is actually going to market this through regular consumer channels this time, instead of the business route they took with the z50 (dumb mistake). Just passing on the info
I appreciate the free OS' as much as the next guy, and I also appreciate "perfecting" the wheel, as opposed to reinventing it. But I haven't seen anyone suggest QNX on the Transmeta yet...
I could be very mistaken here, but I think the two would go together nicely. QNX is small and fairly feature-complete. Photon MicroGUI looks like a nice embedded GUI, and for folks requiring X, R5 is there (although 40MB), and I'm guessing R6 could be, with a little more effort.
To continue my wishlist, I'd love to see said supersupermini with (obviously) PCMCIA support, DEFINITELY a LAN/Modem combo built in, and dare I say USB support? I'd love to see it use LS-120's or optionally the new MiniDisks, as well.
Then, I may be more open to the idea of a hybrid laptop/organizer...
And, if it came with a C++ compiler, I'd be hooked. I can't stand coding in this stupid room!
Trolling? In a good way. Sorta. Slashdot gets more page views this way. But you do hate BSD don't you! I can tell! Really! BSD Bigot!
why bother with a Crusoe powered laptop when I can wait for a quantum-computed CPU in the future? So why bother with the old stuff?
Watch it with that possibly offensive reference to the Amiga!
We coulda been a contender...
Here is the link. :)
--
Hey! I'm offended that your offended about how he's offended!
..once by a girl named Suzy. She was cute, but her third leg really caused the other kids to laugh. Boy, could she run fast though, until the bus hit her. Oh, I know what you're thinking, it was the short bus. Nope, full size.
-slo bob
Could this be used to make a Beowulf cluster?
Yeah, it does, I checked it against bc a while back. It's pretty impressive, actually.
:)
...but my favorite 'pi' program would have to be the Obfuscated C Contest entry that had a function that looked like a circle, and it said "To get a better approximation for Pi, write a bigger program." And it ran that function to mostly calculate Pi. I won't spoil the rest of it for you.
---
pb Reply or e-mail; don't vaguely moderate.
pb Reply or e-mail; don't vaguely moderate.
Why do you assume that "Use the source, Luke!" refers to everyone? Okay, think of the obvious Jedi reference, or Luke in particular. In Lucas's little universe, was everyone a Jedi? Did everyone go around doing Jedi mind tricks? No. Those who had the power did so. Think about law enforcement, at least in the United States. If someone commits murder, does the average citizen go kill the killer? Hopefully, no. Those who are empowered to do so, do so, whether we agree with it or not. So, what am I getting at? If you can do this sort of coding on your own, then for God's sake, do it! The source code is there. If not, there's probably a commercial product available, or, if you're willing, go to CoSource and *pay* someone to develop it. Grandma doesn't have to develop the software herself. But if she is capable of doing so, she may, without having to purchase expensive compilers, without having to purchase OS source code, and hopefully without having to sign an NDA.
Stating on Slashdot that I like cheese since 1997.
Why did this troll get a score of 2? Just curious, because I want to know how some asshole can get a score of 2 just for showing his/her ass to the public.
Seriously, guys, please stop bumping up "gee, sounds like a loser idea to me whenever I've already got better" and "this has been posted before" bozos that apparently do nothing more than sit slack-jawed at their computers, giggling with glee when they see a new story pop up, and take the opportunity to flame the folks at Slashdot for possible having the gall to post a story a second time, or post a story well after another site has.
Jesus, people, get fucking lives.
Stating on Slashdot that I like cheese since 1997.
Heh, that's the ticket! :^)
Stating on Slashdot that I like cheese since 1997.
(Made ya look!)
Am I just missing it or is there no listing of the hard drive space that they come with?
All of the links that have the specs make the point that you can upgrade to 48MB memory easily. But, I did not see a single reference to storage space.
Can anyone here enlighten me?
--
"Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies."
Good for you. But I'm guessing your laptop has less than 6 hours of battery life. That makes it next to useless as far as I'm concerned. I'd say for $500, you were ripped off. On the other hand, this device looks to be worth about that...
--
"Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies."
So.. anyone know somewhere in the UK I
could find one of these?
Somehow, I doubt you'll get them at $300 now that everyone who's selling them are being /.'ed.. ;)
Amiga - Back for the future!
Bought one a few weeks back on the recommendation of MSNBC, at $300. Already have a Palm IIIe, but told myself I'd find something to do with it. Haven't successfully installed telnet yet and Windows CE Services suck ass, otherwise I'd read my shell mail in comfort laying on my bed instead of sitting at my big box.
Now I just have to figure out if I'm up to learning how to get NetBSD onto it and maybe I'll be set. That and a network card. Yay!
And Linux already runs on that... sorta :)
----
The Z50 has pcmcia, and runs the NetBSD drivers for all supported ethernet, serial and wireless cards, so there is no trouble running you Z50
with any sort of net connectivity (including mobile) that you like!
To compete, they just need a >2 hour battery life...
-fb Everything not expressly forbidden is now mandatory.
I think I'll hang on to my Thinkpad 701, it's about the same size (just a bit thicker) and it has a bigger screen. Runs Debian just fiiine too. Excellent for playing nethack on train trips. And the folding 'butterfly' keyboard impresses people. :-)
Too bad the battery is dying, though... Anyone know where I can get replacement batteries for a 701C in .nl?
Because you'll spend a week trying to work around problems, and then give up, because it still doesn't work?
The server for my card didn't work until I patched it - for some reason, locking the console locked up the machine, and the API never returned. After working around this, xinit wouldn't work unless I was root. You need a beta (?) version of Watcom C to compile XFree86, and I wasn't willing to put that on a machine where I compile production code. I ended up putting off getting it to work for the forseeable future.
Mind you, the X11R5 package we got from QSSL was just as bad, and never worked either.
Let's see tote arouns something the size of my laptop?? heck why buy an underpowered junkmachine like that when for the same cash you can get a pentium laptop (P120-133) for the same price used!
anything that cant be operated while running is NOT a palmtop.
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
Well, why bother buying a 1st generation crusoe machine when in a few months after they 1st ship, better ones will be available? And after that, you know, the next set of machines wil lbe even better.
No.
If someone needs a machine today, they should buy one today. The machines tomorrow will always be much better. After 15 or 20 years of desktop computers, hasn't that lesson been learnt yet?
How about the itsy?
Well, I haven't ever used a palmtop... But what I am looking for is a cheap box that can run any unix so that I can have an MP3 Player, that can have a wireless ethernet card, a microphone, speakers, web cam. I want them to be cheap so that I can put them around the house and have one to go on the road with.. (Portable MP3 Player / PDA)
I don't know if the current stock of palmtop/pda machines can really have all of these features (no USB port, no PCMCIA, parallel port, serial port, etc) Let alone the ability to run lynx over the wireless ethernet card.. (Or maybe netscape with a special version of X)..
The possibilities for a small PC are much greater than the current crop of PDA/Palms...
Dont you think?
What's the deal here?
http://www.pricewatch.com/. Do a search on IBM Workpad z50. Good hunting.
The party's over
I'd have to agree in waiting for a Crusoe for myself anyways.
;)
I'm not a Linux expert so for people like me it's nice to be able to put a standard copy of Mandrake 7 on a machine and just download x86 rpms of which there are many.
I'd also like to be able to play quake on it
-idealego
Ok so maybe I'm not that old(14)
And not so crotchety('hey damn kids get off my lawn')
But I happen to find my IBM personal portable computer JUST FINE thank you. In case of wondering yes it is that 30 pound _portable_ offered by IBM back sometime long ago. It cost me 5 bucks. It has a blazin 186 processor, and 612 whole kb of ram(with a delay time soooo slow it takes 30 seconds to count it all up during boot). But yeah baby, I can MOVE on this badboy. It has a full sized 8 inch CRT monitor built in. No hd to slow it down, and 2-count 'em 2 5.25inch floppy drives.
When I was a kid(wait i still am) we didn't have these Ninos and Palmpilots. You'd be lucky if you're "laptop" didn't crush your manlihood beyond recognition. The only thing we had to worry about screwing our transistors was rats(you're wimpy Pentiums getting screwed up by radiation, ha, ha).
I like to fire up my blazin 186 every now and then and goat over how much _faster_ mine is that both MIR and all the Apollo spacecraft. I'll take my 186 with 612kb of ram anyday over you're winCE devices, ick.
(And before you come over and beat me senseless with you're "mice" yes I am joking)
YES! Just the thing I was looking for. Finally I can put this Cassiopeia E-15 :(
to do something useful - wait... nooo... there's no mips-linux nor mips-netbsd
port of setiathome
Microsoft? Is that some kind of a toilet paper?
Have you checked out the Qbit? Looks to be a little more fleshed out than the ScreenMedia. Sounds like they'll have product out in the next few Q's. I also question whether the ScreenMedia (as described) is U.S. ready.
Why am I going to spend $800 (after I finish upgrading the system to have even less capability than the one I have now) for a machine that only runs experimental Linux ports?
Becuase it's not $800. You can get it right now for less than $400. If you were lucky (like me), you could have ordered one when it was less than $300 (shipped!).
Now I just have to get a Compact Flash and figure out how I can dual boot WinCE and NetBSD/hpcmips. Oh, oh; I think I'm about to geek-out.
I want to be able to read the Wall Street Journal on-line edition and Slashdot at the breakfast table, or in bed, or on the couch without having to worry about a keyboard and mouse. The ScreenMedia device seems to be the perfect wireless solution.
Anyone have new information? Their website looks the same as it did months ago...
yes!
let me repeat that
yes!
From my laptop, I want a big screen, good keyboard, large harddrive, long batterylife. Notice how processor speed a was abstent from my requirements. I'm thinking a 486 or even a 386 (hell all I do is use emacs anyway) would do me just fine.
Hey laptop makers! lookie here! This is a market segment waiting for your attention.
Johan
For some reason, slash adds random spaces to my sig! I don't know why but it may be because my sig is over the max length.
If i erase that space, another random space is inserted somewhere else!
:-(
I don't think they ment the x86 version of OS X...
.001 JWLS
they probally ment they havent developed PPC morphing
-my
=1000101
"So why bother with the old stuff?"
I'm going to wait for the time-machine cpu. This will be a cpu that sends itself far enough back in time for each process to complete just after it has started. That way, I can start a job that will take years and years of cpu-time, but to me will finish instantaneously.
Where am I going to get such a machine? Well, I'm sure that they are available in the future, so I'll just wait for a future-me to send one back. Hey, a package just appeared on my desk...
Mike van Lammeren
Mike van Lammeren
It will challenge your head, your brain, and your mind.
Are they very hard to get a hold of? I'm thinking that here in Canada they might be especially hard to find.
I can't spell or type, but that doesn't mean I'm unusually stupid.
8 months ago I bought a p233 w/mmx with 32 megs of ram, '95, 3gig hd for $900 off of ubid. :P It was only usefull then when I had a t3 to jack into to exploit the bandwith of off my laptop, the nic card I got as much as I paid for it back when I sold it recently also.
It's not bad, but I'm selling it off now for $600, I don't use it anymore, I got a better job and don't do tech anymore
Laptops are somewhat nice, but really they're damn near useless in every day work for me, but when I worked tech it was great to bring my own comp and not deal with a shared pc(yuck). But when the servers you work on are several hundred miles a way whats the point? I don't really need to check my email in the car, come on now lets get serious whats the point?
You people are overreacting to a bottom of the line pos wanna-be laptop, true it's nice and thin but no mussle. I bet you own a webphone don't ya, come on now admit it you spent that extra money to get 3 lines of yahoo! on your phone. We need a slashdot pda, one that has only 4 functions:
1. read slashdot.org
2. check stock quotes
3. telnet
4. mp3 player
with a huge battery life of a week or more, running a curosoe.
When are they going to make some decent batteries? Maybe I should just carry a gasoline generator and plug the ac adaptor into it? I love that 2 ~ 3 hour battery life my lappy packed without power saving modes.
Ok upon checking the net the Workpad z50 seems to actually be priced around $1000.00 dollars not the $250.00 - $400.00 range mentioned in the article. However the IBM Workpad Companion is more of a regualr PDA and is priced in the range. It however runs runs something called Wordpad O/S not Windows CE (can't execute?). The Wordpad z50 is not in short supply as the article says. It is instead not even due out until Mid May 2000. As for the NetBSD port that part I haven't verified yes or no. But if the facts play out in the same manor as they have so far then ..... well ... You do the math.:) It does seem that the cpu it's running should be capible of supporting either a BSD style or Linux style of Unix. However I still love my little Libretto. No porting needed it has an AMD K-5. Check this ZDnet article here.
I'm sorry, I'm to tired to be witty at the moment so this message will have to do.
You forgot to initialize b.
Where is my mind?
mfspr r3, pc / lvxl v0, 0, r3 / li r0, 16 / stvxl v0, r3, r0
Check out Project Upper/Mute, an all-around awesome compiler fra
heck, it's all pretty invalid!
Did you use > or < signs?
Where is my mind?
mfspr r3, pc / lvxl v0, 0, r3 / li r0, 16 / stvxl v0, r3, r0
Check out Project Upper/Mute, an all-around awesome compiler fra
It comes preinstalled with Windows CE, but you can install NetBSD or Linux?
I can see it now, geeks with no lives go marching onto microsoft marching on what they call a "Windows CE refund day".
Next thing you'll see is people wanting refunds cause they want to run Linux on their washing machines, not some proprietry crap.
I guess maybe Microsoft should produce hardware & software combos, then they wouldn't so much crap from people who see microsoft's licensing OSs to all sorts of manufacturers rather than control everything (eg. Windows CE compared to PalmOS/Palms, Windows compared to MacOS/Apple) as 'pure evil'.
Basically, people develop devices and software to run them, sell them (including cost of hardware & software development) noone cares.
Microsoft prefer to just write software, the license it to manufactueres so those with little software skill can easily create devices, everyone (at least here) start spouting "crap crap crap". The added advantage of Microsoft's model is that you *can easily* do things exactly like this, replace Windows CE with whatever you like.
WNT = VMS "done right"
Search for Cutler
If it was said on slashdot, it MUST be true!
I've een thinking of replacing the current Win98 with some kine of *BSD, but I am not sure whether that will support the PCMCIA CDPD modem, so I haven't invested the time yet. Considering this is just a small comms machine, I also don't think it is worth it.
FJ!!
MVS = "Multiple Virtual Storage", an OS for the IBM 390. It was later renamed to "OS/390".
VMS = "Virtuel Memory System", mad by DEC for their VAXens and later Alphas (OpenVMS).
> But until batteries get better and/or they stop putting moving parts (i.e., hard drives) in
> laptops, there's a niche for machines like the z50.
Hard drives are not the problem these days.
Old laptops with old NiCD-Batteries (~1994) had harddrives as well. Now we have modern hardrives wich need slightly less power and modern batteries wich can store much more energy (more than three times as much) but average battery times haven't improved at all (I have the feeling, it has gotten worse.)
Why? Because those "modern" CPUs you find in most laptops and the bigger displays have eaten up all advantages made in battery-developement.
Some numbers:
IBM's latest and greates Travelstar 25GS (25MB): 2.5W(reading), 2.9W(writing), 2W (idle but rotating).
Intel's Mobile-Pentium-III 500MHz: 8W
A crueso+the more of RAM it needs is bigger and sucks much more energy than a MIPS or [Strong]ARM.
And don't forget, the Crusoe is just s a dull and boring x86. It has some interesting internals, but from the outside it's not much more than a pentium compatible CPU wich needs extra RAM to run.
So from my POV Crusoe is *older* and by far not as "cool" as those pure RISC CPUs.
The x86/IA32-compatibility is the only advantage Crusoe has to MIPS or StrongARM. But we don't need - no - we don't *WANT* x86-compatibility for our PDAs. Let's get rid of this old crap: x86: DIE, DIE, DIE!
It's too bad that most of us (including me) can't afford something better than x86 for our desktops at the moment, but don't let this cancer spread to the PDAs.
(And no, that Crusoe was designed by a company where Linus works doesn't make it any better!)
We need a slashdot pda, one that has only 4 functions: 1. read slashdot.org 2. check stock quotes 3. telnet 4. mp3 player It seems like transmitting clear text passwords over wireless is a really really pad idea, at least if wireless transmission is anything like ethernet. As I understand it, being within a certain range of someone using wireless enet would be kind of like being in the same subnet; i.e. you could sniff all the traffic, just by sitting next to someone. As someone that feels vaguely paranoid just using a wireless phone, i would DEFINITLY want something that could encrypt my traffic.
Am I reading the results of this correctly??? Does this _REALLY_ display PI or are you yanking my chain!!!
Why are all BSD fans grumpy?
It's rare that you're presented with a knob whose only two positions are Make History and Flee Your Glorious Destiny.
They aren't intended to have the sheer grunt power of a standard PC (laptop/desktop) as this isn't the primary purpose, if they did - currently, the machine would have abismal battery life.
Storgae space is still an issue, but then its not intended to have a LOT of stuff on there - and solutions are coming, IBM already has a compactflash sized 340Mb hard drive, and a 1GB sized drive is in the works. Plenty of room.
just my $0.02
Why bother buying a laptop now if you can wait for Crusoe-powered machines?
You can run whatever OS you want, whenever you want, at near native speed.
With huge batterylife.
So why bother with the old stuff?
This would be the most neatest thing. Have Compact Flash so you can store some beck mp3s, or the matrix movie, an ethernet jack so you can sync from anywhere.
The most super tricky bit however - is making a circular display - is this possible?
:wq
WorkPad z50s are for sale on eBay for prices specified in the article... http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem& item=267345328 Note: I am NOT the seller.
shouldn't be too hard getting ssh running
.../pkgsrc/security/ssh
on NetBSD:
grab pkgsrc
cd
make install
echo done
(see ftp://ftp.netbsd.org/pub/NetBSD/packages/README for some more info)
- Hubert
IBM apparently aren't going to release it yet it Europe 'because of what happened to HP's Jordana' (whatever it was that happened to that...) I'm just going to get it shipped over at $47(!) from one of the US retailers... Doug
Actually, I think I am. I use this sub-notebook mostly for email and light web browsing (usually with lynx). Now, perhaps my daily load of email (200-400 messages depending on the day of the week) is more than most and I like to carry around a 20MB archive of messages. I have the Sierra Wireless Aircard for CDPD and an external battery for 5 hours of battery life. I have the ususal assortment of TCP/IP applications including fetchmail and ssh.
Now, your $279 price is a lot better than the $400 mentioned in the submission. But take that $400 unit mentioned above, add in 40 MB of Flash to have a filesystem big enough to hold a kernel a few apps and some data (click click click) for $328 at Insight and we're rapidly approaching my $800 figure. It dosn't look as good a deal.
For $279, I think that you're looking at a very attractive price point given that you still need to add on to get it to do much of anything. At $400, not so much.
Anomalous: inconsistent with or deviating from what is usual, normal, or expected
Anomalous: deviating from what is usual, normal, or expected
Canard: a false or unfounded repor
How much flash are you going to add? And for how much?
Anomalous: inconsistent with or deviating from what is usual, normal, or expected
Anomalous: deviating from what is usual, normal, or expected
Canard: a false or unfounded repor
Both of 'em work great together...small (even with the batteries) and just big enough and powerful enough to be useful.
In fact, I used it last winter to run BeetleCam (http://damon.durandfamily.org/Beetle). Perfect for these kind of applications. Telnet and ssh is a bit slow, but it works very well enough. It's much better in burst applications.
I usually used it just to feed the data across to another webserver, instead of serving it directly off the unit. Latency and bandwidth, as I said before, are limited.
Damn, that kicks some serious ass. Now I can be a complete geek on the go. Sharkey
http://www.badassmofo.com
What ?? I thought Linux for x86 was by definition an x86 binary?? Just as Linux for PowerPC chip is by defintion an PPC Binary and so on. Do you mean windows apps? Thats different, the Crusoe can emulate an x86 instruction and therefore run windows, Linux, SCO unix or any other x86 program provided the proper device drivers are available. And actually, from what I understand a TM3120 runs at about 1 watt, which less than the mips chip in my CE device (3 watts). THE CRUSOE IS NOT AN X86 CLONE.
So Long and Thanks for all the Fish.
QNX support is in XFree 3.3.6 and I believe it is now also in 3.9.18. So why pay for a QNX Xserver that is only X11R5 when you can have X11R6.3 with XFree 3.3.6 and X11R6.4 with XFree 3.9.18
D.
Actually, yes. A buddy and I are in the process of starting up such a project. Not based on Itsy, because of it's license, but using the StrongARM processor. Similar to the LART, either using it's design, or, more likely, rolling our own (my buddy's a hardware guru) We're close to putting up a site so that we can start discussing details with the community. When we get the site up, I'll submit it to /. and see if they'll talk about it. The idea right now is a small, modularized system that is completely open source (ie, software and hardware). we have tons of ideas, but we want to find out from others (aka - you) what kind of stuff would be really cool. more to come (hopefully) ...
People are asking why you need a *NIX on a computer like this but I say why not. It's just plain cool and exactly what these OS's need to get popular w/the general public. It's a lot less hairy to set-up a trashy portable to use Linux/BSD where there isn't any risk of getting burned badly b/c you need to get it up and running b/f the next work week. In my opinion this is what will get more people playing around w/these OS's and that's how we all get hooked right? Don't tell me you came to love computers out of using WordStar and 1-2-3.
I think the Crusoe processor would be the thing to run PDAs on at this stage in the game. After all, these things are MADE for PDAs and they're MADE for Linux! Well, ok, they're not MADE for linux, but they're made by a company that employs the guy behind linux. Same thing.
I hope the people doing the linux port keep their nose clean regarding GPL violations. Not that it needed to be said, but you just never know...
For those of you looking for a wireless notebook, I just thought I'd mention that I'm sitting in bed with a WorkPad that's connected to the net via a WebGear Aviator card and running off battery. Works fine. B-)
Yes check out http://www.linuxce.org/ (and probably the netbsd guys too - for all i know they had it first) There are touchscreen drivers for some CE hardware. (The z50 has a little IBM-style joystick not a touchscreen)
I think everybody is at least creating an onscreen soft keyboard first before worrying about handwriting recognition. I expect that right now the non-gpl code that OEM's will bundle with their distro's will have better performance for at least another 1-2 years...
I bought one of these and I've been using it to connect in from the road via telnet for the last few weeks. The battery life just rocks - my first charge laster 10 hours and I'm still using it.
I tried the NetBSD port and was able to get it to boot up. Next step is to get ssh running.
There is also a Linux kernel port that will boot but isn't too useful as of yet. I haven't tried it out.
I have a friend who gets to play with a lot of embedded devices, and I actually was talking to him about these devices last week. His comment was that they just weren't making sense. In particular, the WinCE wasn't very stable on them. Perhaps the NetBSD port could make them more useful, but he recommends the plethora of other PDA types devices, and not this beast.
It's brilliant.
"Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law." --
I think the big hullabaloo about Windows Refund Day was not necessarily getting the $50 or so back. The real issue was that users had a contract with OEMs/Microsoft for a refund, but the OEMs and Microsoft wanted to back out on that contract. If they had just given those few people who asked their $50 (or however much) right away, it would not have become a cause celebre.
Your right to not believe: Americans United for Separation of Church and
Unfortunately, since IBM's discontinued it, there may not be enough demand at the $500-$1K price point. Too bad; in most ways the z50 was a much nicer machine than its competition (the HP Journadas and Compaq Aeros), being based on the rather slick Thinkpad 240 chassis. (The only problem is that it really ought to have had an 800x600 screen -- it's big enough.
I'm not sorry I bought mine; nothing better if you have to sit in a library all morning taking notes and in a cafe all afternoon writing your notes up, especially if you don't want to be bothered with carrying around a power supply or looking for electrical plugs. I just wish the Linux port was a little farther along.
-- Some things are to be believed, though not susceptible to rational proof.
I've always thought a good form factor for a handheld would be something along the lines of the medical tricorder device from Star Trek:TNG.
:-)
Basically, imagine something only slightly larger than a Pilot (but smaller than the z50 or these other "micro laptops"), with a thick clamshell design that evenly distributes the weight between the two halves.
The reason this would be cool is you could build it rugged as hell-- think a "metal with rubber trim" exterior-- and it would be perfectly suited for clipping onto a belt or whatnot. Just like a tape measure.
It would sure beat these super-delicate quarter-inch-thick Pilots and their flimsy plastic screen guards (well, as long as you don't want to slip it into that shirt pocket...
iSKUNK!
Sure, UNIX was designed for mainframes running a bunch of dumb terminals, but the average pocket calculator these days has more computing power than those old mainframes.
The overhead is simply not an issue. You can fit a useful Linux distro on a floppy and run it on a 386. This is easily small and efficient enough for a palmtop.
Linux is nice because it's free and there's lots of free software for it. Why reinvent the wheel? Instead of needing a massive promotional campaign to get developers to make stuff for it, you've already got a pile of useful software.
The z50s have a built in 56k modem, and they have a PCMCIA slot for an ethernet card. I doubt they will play mp3s though, because the processor is slow. It will run a web browser, email, "pocket" MS Office, and other CE apps under CE. It's basically a cross between a subnotebook and palm device. It's very light, but offers a 6" screen or so with a decent keyboard. Well worth the money I think, especially with unix alternatives.
"In individuals, insanity is rare, but in groups, parties, nations, and epochs it is the rule." -Nietzsche
I don't know what your defination of cheap is, but you can get a Libretto (discontinued, or at least pulled from their website) or Sony Picturebook -now with 12 Gig HD. They will do everything you want.
"Well, good luck finding a judge that doesn't run a bestiality site."
Yes it will play MP3's. Its a 131mhz vr4121 MIPS CPU - I think. The slowest part on all CE devices is the display subsystem. (You can even play mp3's on the old nino's and e10's - in mono)
what could be easier? Try doing that with Microsoft's windows.
with enough eyes, all new hardware is shallow : )
I don't know what kind of support there is for Linux at this very moment. At least not of the downloadable stuff. I leave that for the more knowledgeable people.
Transmeta was showing of a tablet at their presentation. I think you can still find it on their website. Now Linus (I think in an interview) said that the handwriting recognition software was better this week then the week before. Meaning that they work on it. If I am not mistaken the 400Mhz Crusoe was going to run the webpads using Mobile Linux. This means that there would be pen input for Linux in the near future.
Use Adsense for Charity
Why are everyone in such a rush to jump on the Linux bandwagon, and ignore the technical aspects?
Linux is derived from UNIX. UNIX is a server OS. It is multi-user, with tough security and relitivly high system overheads. Even getting it into a usable desktop OS is a pretty big hack, so why force a server OS onto a palmtop? What advantages do people think there are to using Linux on a palmtop? Maybe they'll provide an ethernet port and allow multiple users to telnet in? Didn't think so.
The only reason i can see for companies to use Linux is the "Me too!" factor involved.
Syllable : It's an Operating System
The itsy - did that have specifications? I think a project would be cool that was to make gpl circuit diagrams, so people can buy a crusoe cpu, compactflash card, ethernet driver and a touchscreen lcd - and make a hell funky pda.
:wq
I didn't notice any of the replies mentioning the Linux PDA announced by Samsung. No price mentrioned yet, but The Gadgeteer lists it, and it is fully described on the Samsung website at http://www.sem.samsung.co.kr/eng/product/digital/p da/index.htm
Yes. I do this routinely in the SF bay and other places I travel. I browse the web, and I read my POP3 email. I even get the first 100 characters of all my email sent to my phone - I now effectively have an 'email waiting' light (very cool) in my pocket at all times. there are several ways to do this, and I wrote up the way I went (a GSM + Psion PDA combo). The article discusses my 5mx, but I now use the smaller Revo. There is also a port of linux to this PDA family at www.calcaria.net (surprised no one has mentioned it).
I have an $800 Mitsubishi Amity with a 1.4 GB hard drive, a Pentium 133 and 32MB of RAM running a stock Mandrake 7.0 distribution. Why am I going to spend $800 (after I finish upgrading the system to have even less capability than the one I have now) for a machine that only runs experimental Linux ports?
Sounds like a loser move to me.
Anomalous: inconsistent with or deviating from what is usual, normal, or expected
Anomalous: deviating from what is usual, normal, or expected
Canard: a false or unfounded repor
This post brings up a question that I have been wondering about, but haven't heard anything about. What kind of support is there right now for pen input in Linux? If Linux wants to make the jump to handheld/portable computers this is going to be an important part. Specifically is there hardware support at all and are there any opensourced handwriting recognition software projects? Anyone know? Thanks in advance.
-
If you like your P90 notebook, I'm glad for you. But it's not comparable to the WorkPad by any stretch.
It will take years to get to 20,000 posts at this rate!
It is fairly straightforward. The NetBSD hpcmips crowd has been running on a wide variety of WinCE handhelds for a while. If you want to learn more, the web site and (more importantly) the mailing lists can help you out.
Reading this review points a few things that might be relevant.
1. 2.7 pounds.
2. No touchscreen.
3. Full keyboard.
This is NOT a palmtop folks. As a handheld it is more like a low power low graphic low memory low expansion ultralight, than a color palmpilot.
Certainly I could see some uses for a product like this, but since I see people in this discussion talking about handwriting recognition I would like to suggest they make sure they understand the specs. This one uses a nubby eraser pointer like thinkpads and such do.
For some reason the performance chart for this says it has handwriting recognition but since it doesn't have a touch screen that seems sort of a part of the OS and not really relevant to the piece of hardware we are talking about.
D
You don't want that space between the last * and =.
It comes preinstalled with Windows CE, but you can install NetBSD or Linux? Can you buy it prepackaged with NetBSD, or do you have to download and install it youself? How do you install it? This is a palmtop, remember. Do you install the files over the serial interface? Even after you have it installed, how do you interface with this thing? Does it have its own special version of X? Or is it just console commands? And why exactally would it be useful to have BSD or Linux on a palmtop anyways? Usually the palms proprietary OS does everything that the palmtop is supposed to do. Are you gonna be running Apache on your Workpad or what. C'mon people.
Last month, I bought a clearance laptop (Dell LM P90, 16 MB RAM, 1 Gig HD, and 640*480 active matrix display) for $500 Canadian.
I bought an extra ethernet/modem combo for 60$CDN and it runs linux (slackware) with X prefectly.
I don't know about these pda's or sub-laptops, but I think they must get a lot cheaper before they can compete with out-of-date computers.
you know, I would really like to have a little device such as this beast, but more important than low price or color screens or hard drive space is that my portable computer must be internet-enabled. I need to bea ble to reach the portable machine from the internet and I need to be able to reach the internet from the portable machine. is anyone out there doing this? does anyone have a plam with a minstrel, or a libretto with CDCP pcmcia hardware? how do you like it? are you able to run services on the mobile machine and connect to them from the rest of the internet?
this might be a bit off topic, but if anyone is doing this sort of thing, gimme a heads up.
(and yes, I've read homepages of several libretto+cdcp people; I know itspossible and it's being done, I just want to know if peopel are happy with it and hear some more experiences.)
Instant-on and extremely long battery life (8 hours on a single charge) make this a convenient device for those of us who deal with on-call support. A 56k modem would be nicer than the 33.6k modem built-in, but all-in-all, simple support activities aren't too painful at 33.6k. VNC is even bearable.
I have the Novatel Wirless Merlin PCMCIA CDPD modem in mine, but the usefulness is limited in Windows CE since TCP/IP applications for that platform are crappy at best.
Your P133 may suit your needs just fine, however it is not going to have instant-on or the long battery life afforded by the WorkPad z50. The people who will use this aren't going to use it as a primary workstation. It's going to be a slight step above a mobile thin-client.
Typical. He talks about the current NetBSD port thats working and mentions that there is a Linux port in progress so on the article title its "Inexpensive Linux/BSD Handhelds.
You are all in the wrong mindset and just posting because you think you are cool. =P Let me point out a few things about CE devices in general that will hopefully clear up a lot of confusion, I'll also make a few comments specifically about Linux & z50's...
On a CE device the RAM is SRAM not DRAM. So the RAM's state is maintained when you power down. So you install everything into RAM. (Unless you also have a compact flash card).
CE is loaded from ROM, and the ROM's are masked - meaning not flash upgradable. But the bootloader and OS are installed into ROM. SO to boot Linux or NetBSD you run a CE app which is a bootloader for a bsd/linux kernel which is on a compact flash or pcmcia card. (Don't even get me started on the lack of protection in CE that allows you to do this) There is hope, on the z50 the ROM card is removable. On some other CE devices its soldered on. So there's a possibility of people selling linux distro's for the z50 that you just pop in... that will be a long time coming though...
In response to a response below this level - IBM is not going to offer NetBSD or Linux as an install option. Ha! Keep dreaming. They have just dropped this device, why would they go on and bother to do development for a dead platform?
Also, yes you can play MP3's on it. It has a fast 131mhz r41xx MIPS chip. IMO its the display driver on all CE devices that makes them seem so slow. (Oh, and probably WinCE)
Oh, and this is not a palmtop. Its a Jupiter class device. Its a mini-notebook sized device. Roughly the size of a Sony VAIO...
Here's a screen shot of a developer running X on a z50: http://pc1.peanuts.gr.jp/~kei/Xscreen.gif
There's a review of it at Cnet