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Part of Ender's Game Script Posted
SilentJason writes "Orson Scott Card posted a few of the pages from the Ender's Game script onto the web. He changed some material, as to be expected, like the buggers becoming Formics, as well as cutting the fight between Ender and Stilson. I first saw this on Ain't It Cool News, reported by Cassius the Evil. You can read the script at Fresco Pictures. "
The real world is not a binary one all black and white, consisting solely of people whom we love or whom we hate, or of causes which we support or which we oppose.
Tom Christiansen is neither a saint nor a devil. He is a human being, with good parts and bad parts, good days and bad ones. Tom is an intelligent, often opinionated, and occasionally eloquent human being. The same can be said for Ken Thompson, Kirk McKusick, Richard Stallman, Guy Harris, Larry Wall, Dennis Ritchie, Doug Gwyn, Henry Spencer, Eric Allman, Chris Torek, or Eric Raymond. So are a lot of people in our community. Because they are intelligent, they sometimes have things they they can point out that we'd otherwise miss, valuable insights that would impoverish us all to discard sight unseen merely due to their provenance. Because these famous figures are opinionated, there will always be some opinions which they hold that will be controversial. And because these writers can be eloquent, their words have a way of attracting attention that the average Slashdot posters' do not.
The part about growing up is recognizing that the value of an idea must be considered apart from whether you like the person. Sometimes people you don't like have good ideas. Sometimes people you do like had bad ones. Gifted writers--a rare commodity indeed in this day, age, and forum--offer valuable insights, new perspectives that make us think, and perhaps even understand. Just because you don't agree with Richard Stallman's "GNU/Linux" tirades doesn't mean you should reject emacs, or more importantly, Stallman's important positions on things like patents. Just because you don't agree with Eric Raymond's position on gun ownership and gun-control doesn't mean that you must automatically reject his observations regarding the nature of the currency of our gift culture. And just because you don't agree with Tom Christiansen's position on the GPL or his affinity for vi doesn't mean that you shouldn't use Perl, or listen to his other positions on non-GPL issues.
This is all a part of growing up. I'm hoping that you're very young, because it would be too bad if you'd wasted too many years seeing all the world as allies or enemies, or believing that the worth of a man's words depended on matters unrelated to those words, whether it be his hygiene habits, his political part, or his views on completely unrelated issues.
Welcome, new human, to the tapestry of humanity. It is far richer and more varied, full of pain and passion and beauty, than you had perhaps realized. Cast down your blinders and look into the future with eyes wide open.
(kind of like the Hobbit and Lord of the Rings)
But don't read just two of them, it doesn't make much sense except as a set...
That is far from true. He was brought up in a world where such things like training in the gym were considered both a priveledge and fun by the vast majority of the people present, and hence the society in which he was ensconced - the same with the game room and arena (the proper name just lost me. grr...) Anyhow, Ender in the battle school, and indeed his entire mentality through the bugger war is to a large degree a product of the environment that he grew up in - yes, he did want to win very badly, and he did win - always - but he didn't really understand what WINning entailed - as shown by the end of the book, when he decides to become the speaker for the dead. I, for one would not want to judge mr. Lloyd, as he has not even begun playing the part or practicing in earnest (that I know of), and I feel that any such blind criticism removes all doubt that the critic is merely an ignorant barbarian.
I see 8 posts here by OSC and all of them at 1?
that's outrageous!
Is there just some doubt that it's actually Orson Scott Card?
I enjoy Brust and Simmons and a million other authors. But few and far between are the works that make me weep. Card does this consistently. He touches our humanity. Bless him.
Was that really nessecary?
My Webster doesn't have "pedicator" in it. What does it mean?
Back to the Future II and III is only a recent example.
The Three Musketeers and The Four Musketteers
(Richard Lester, the director of both, was sued by some castmembers of the Four Musketteers because he convinced them they were going to be in the Three Musketeers)
De Mille filmed The Crusades and Lives of a Bengal Dancer simultaneously...on the same sets.
why a female role? was there one of these, really? I remember one of the kids, but she was, well, a kid, not really a female role. and why, dear God why, Jake Lloyd? why not the kid from Sixth Sense? At least he can act... my two cents.
hate is one of the better emotions, I think. It makes you alive.
But this is not your father's Olds...
Didn't James Cameron write the Abyss? What did OSC have to do with it?
I think you mean "Classic science fiction book some of whose characters appeared in two appallingly lame other books.".
heh. if you think ender's robotic, read Ender's Shadow ;) (Bean's one cold, calculating mofo :)) ironic, that this was posted today, and i had just finished re-reading Enders Shadow last night. (i've finished Enders Game... 30+ times in the past 8 years)
After reading a bunch of comments on IRC and slashdot about how good Ender's Game was I went out and bought a copy. It was way over-rated, very repetitive and boring. I don't see what Ender's problem was, and for a genius he didn't do anything that astounded me. The ending was just as predictable as the rest,, bleh it was too long ago but all I remember was that it sucked.
I know Formics was mentioned either in Ender's Game or Ender's Shadow, both of which I decided to read several weeks ago. However I can't remember which one it was in. I very much agree with the Stilson thing. It is VERY crucial to the story because thats what Ender is basing his whole way of life on up there, attempting to be not like Peter, yet always finding himself apparently doing what Peter would do. If they don't put the whole "way Peter is" in the movie, I don't see there being much of a story.
Just listen to some parts of the article:
The Valentine-and-Peter-take-over-the-world subplot is gone, not only because we needed to cut something, but also because it would be visually boring -- a couple of kids looking at computer screens and talking about them.
I spend all day looking at a computer screen and its not boring at all! Most of the people paying for this movie will be geeks anyway... sounds like this is totally being dumbed down for Hollywood.
the movie sounds cool. i hope they make a book out of it.
I was just wondering, do you friends call you "Scott" or "Orson", or is it contextually dependent?
Who wants to bet that Uncle Orson hits the magical +1 bonus on his first day at Slashdot? :-)
LotR as a movie? Wow. Well, considering that Lucas himself said that Star Wars was just a rip-off" of Tolkien, this should be interesting.
Starship Troopers was just like the book but without the philosophy. Which was fine from my POV, since the philosophy was essencially fascist.
In case some of you think that ST was tongue in cheek, RAH is on record as supporting the Vietnam war. I think Michael Moorcock (wrote the Elric series) mentioned it in an interview somewhere on the net.
-Dave Turner, AC of convinience
"I stumbled on Seventh Son by accident--almost literally. I found the book lying under a pile of computer junk in my apartment and have no idea where it came from. "
It's a miracle! I usually lose books. Anyone discover a copy of Phule's Company by Robert Asprin a few years back? I had one mysteriously disappear on me.
I've noticed that it's too hard for an average adult to take SF seriously. They just can't even pretend to take, say, Invasion from Outer Space seriously. It seems to take some special mindset that must be planted when you are young. How many of you started reading SF after 20?
Take, for instance, the Mind Game. This kid beats some videogame, and these supposedly dignified military types are "shaken". Is it believable? Or does it sound like silly B-movie plot?
I have read some very bad review of Bicentennial Man. It's easy to imagine these "literate" critics having hard time taking robots seriously even for a second. (The replicants in Blade Runner were not really robots, I mean, they looked human, the replicant was only a name for some battered minority group.)
I expect either the movie won't come to exist at all, or be converted into something hideously different and dissapointing to all.
Welsh != English :-)
If you are a bad actor it does not necessarily mean you are a bad person. I am sure he is acting to the best of his ability, the people who should be held responsible are the people who made the casting decisions.
To be a good actor you have to understand the person you are portraying (I realize this isn't always true, but in this case I think it is ok). The quality that separated Ender from other children is depth. I have seen 2 of Lloyd's movies, read many articles and seen many interviews. I have never seen Lloyd present real depth.
Haley Joel Osment showed in his movie sixth sense (and interviews I have seen) that he can play a character with real depth.
I have heard rumors that the reason for choosing Lloyd over Osment based on name recognition. Ender's game has a sufficiently good following that it will attract a lot of viewers, and if it is well written and played by good actors, it will attract virtually everyone. When making a movie such as ender's game you should try to make it the kickassesst sci-fi movie, regardless of if anyone will go see it. (that is not the basis on which good art or technology is created) I personally will boycott the movie if Jake Lloyd plays Ender (at least for a few weeks until my love of ender's game gets the better of me)
On a different question. Is it true that Ender doesn't kill Stilson in the script? I read what's up so far and couldn't find it. Anyone?
Yeah but Han Solo was a cool character and he did it well.
Sorry, but I've had a copy for several months now. Probably around mid-October. Not that it's bad this great book/movie is getting more publicity.
Just thought I'd point it out.
Steve Weber (getting an account shortly)
While there is no "noise in space" there is a large amount of it in each vehicle; life support, drive system, occupants and comms all make noise. If the viewpoint for external shots exposes you to these various sounds then I think you can have your cake and eat it too so to speak.
Exploding ships would only make noise up until their transmitters were destroyed. Weapons would make noise as they recharged/reloaded and discharges would only be audible from the vehicle that is firing them. Lasers still do not make a sound though.
If they do pull of the Zero G room it'll be one of those great leaps, special-effects wise. Hmm, maybe they could do _lots_ of filming in the Vomit Comet, a couple kids at a time, and composite them together...combined with computer generations of kids farther away maybe. Why do you wax your books?
I read this series out of order, and for what it's worth, Speaker for the Dead was the highlight of that series. True, I have a bias because I read it before I read Ender's Game, but I've always thought Ender's Game was sort of practice for Speaker -- the fact that I didn't, plotwise, miss a thing or fail to understand references speaks for the strength of the book on its own. Frankly, since that Card has been erratic in his output. Xenocide was awful because it seemed like he was trying to write, rather than an extension of the Ender series, some other book and just using Ender's Game as a hook for sales. And the Homeworld stuff was also crap. But Speaker makes up for all that -- it's by far one of the most intense books I've ever read.
I'm half suprised to see you writting comments on slashdot. But while I am posting, I am wondering...
"The Nets" that you reference in Ender's Game (and Shadow) seem to be similar to newgroups and even slashdot itself. Was your vision of the nets similar to what is now reality?
One last comment: a few slashdotters like to rip on everyone, and I've seen a couple negative (and IMHO, unfair) comments about you. I hope you don't let this discolour your view of /.
For the love of anything Slashdot has ever cared about, moderate the AUTHOR's postings, especially this one, all the way through to cloud nine. You might even arrange for the mystical six.
hi. i am the guy who hates Tom Christiasen. You probably know me by my "All I want for Xmas is Tom Christiansen's 2 front teeth" troll. After reading Tom's post, here, I feel awful. This is the first time I have ever agreed with Tom.
I leave it to the slashdot population to decide for me whether I should give up my hateful postings regarding Tom.
The only thing that really bugs me is that I suppose they'll drop Petra's nudity in the scene where they introduce her.
Well then I might as well submit a new story saying that the Pentium II has been sent to distributers. The reason slashdot is so great is because it focuses on TODAY'S news, not news from several months ago.
There were links further in the story to the partial script, which has not changed since August or so when the story was originally posted.
Classic science fiction book by Orson Scott Card. The first book in an excellent series, actually.
I originally saw this script in essentially the same form over a year ago. Card tends to do lots of interesting things on the web, including a virtual community in which everybody pretends to be resident's of his Alvin Maker series.
Card suggests he has rewritten this, but I'm not sure how extensive the rewrite has been.
Eternal vigilance only works if you look in every direction.
Reasons why this movie will *not* "blow":
:-) for those of you who think it rocks? Thought so. :D
;-), and I *know* EG will blow WC out of the water.
(1) OSC's track record. Have you ever seen "The Abyss?" Can I get a show of hands (ooh, Rush reference
(2) OSC himself. This man is an amazing author (and arguably the best sci-fi one behind Asimov). He's also a warm, humorous and open guy. I interviewed him when I was in elementary school (long, long ago) for a reading project and have known his family forever (it seems). His tireless energy and keen sense of plot coherence/integrity will not allow the script to be distorted into something beyond recognition.
(3) Wing Commander. To put it bluntly, the series is great, but the movie was *the* biggest disappointment of my life (next to the near-sterile passing of 1999-> 2000
-dtc
Okay, one actor is known -- Ender himself. But anyone cares to gamble/suggest actors for other roles? Peter, for example? Bean? Mazor?
Book reviews -- the original Ender's Quartet, and the newer Ender's Shadow.
- Tal
- Tal Cohen
Hey! Starship Troopers had some excellent parts! What about ... no that was stupid. How about .... No only and idiot would land on a planet with out Space to Ground support. Well ... no that was stupid too...
Well it was nice to see Kurgan working....
I read at +2. If your post doesn't reach that level I will not see or respond to it.
I always like getting book recommendations..particularly if I decide I like the author! :-)
Cheers,
Ben
My usual seat in the cluetrain is at A HREF="http://pub4.ezboard.com/biwethey.ht
Look, it may be old news for the site, but not for slashdot. This is news that I, and I suspect alot of other people, want to hear about. Slashdot doesn't have to be up-to-the-second-or-it's-too-old-timely. Now sit down, be quiet, and let the rest of us enjoy this tidbit.
Regis: Is that your final answer?
c+era: Yes, Reej, that's my final answer.
Regis: I'm sorry, you lose the $100 question. The correct answer is allot, and I'm pretty sure even Tom Christiansen will back me up on this one.
/me likes a little bit of crow, served right up with some humble pie.
I stand firmly and humbly corrected. :)
I think that "The Lost World" suffered even worse than "Jurassic Park"....they want to make a third movie that is being written by someone other than Michael Crichton.
The only suffering having to do with "The Lost World" was the suffering of those of us who read the book. I was so pissed off at Crichton for having written that piece of crap. He magically ressurects a dead character and then ships him off as Mr. DinoHunter ("I'll stick my thumb up this dino's butt, he really won't like that!") tosses in some really lame child characters, and basically craps all over the first book. (Now should I tell you how I really feel about the book?)
"The Lost World" book was so obviously written to be a squal to the movie version of Jurassic Park that I felt cheated by reading it. Words like "sell out" came to mind as I was reading it. I never even saw the sorry-ass movie. I'm suprised that the tripe he wrote wasn't good enough for Hollywood, it was perfect for what the movie making monkeys of today would want to see.
Maybe in someone else's hands the third movie would be as much of a sucky crapfest as the second book AND second movie. The sad thing was I enjoyed the first movie. I read the book before seeing the movie, and I thought the movie was a good adaptation of what the book presented. There was no way they could get everything in, but they did a good job. (I still wish they would have killed off the old man. Actually, in the movie he was much too much sympathetic. In the book you were more willing to hate him and see him come to a bad end.)
I hate when Hollywood takes away from the authors original intentions just to try to make a buck
I agree that it sucks when Hollywood takes away from the authers original intentions. But I think in the case of The Lost World and any other movie in that series, Crichton already gave them permission by writing the second book the way he did.
As for Ender's Game...I'm really looking forward to the movie. Card obviously cares about his characters and cares about how they are portreyed. It looks like he'll be pretty involved in every stage of the movie and I think because of that it'll turn out okay. However, if director or some movie producer deceides that Card is screwing up what they think the movie should be, get ready for the worst movie of the decade. Done right (with Card's help) the movie will be brilliant, done wrong (Hollywood's usual attempt at greatness,) it'll just be terrible.
Really? The Abyss is one of my favorite movies of all time.
I found the extended laser disc version of the movie was astounding with the revised ending. The original movie that was cut for time had a really quick and rushed ending.
I'll have to check OSC's novelization out.
I've only read a couple of his books: Ender's Game and Wyrms. Wyrms was really strange--it felt like some sort of writing experiment with weird SciFi plots. Didn't read well for me and actually turned me off reading most of Card's other works.
I've avoided the sequeals to Ender's Game because I felt that the story ends really well as it does in the original novel. Sure, it's nice to see continue on and see where the characters go and take us with them, but after the double-surprise, I was left pretty fulfilled.
/// Zoid.
Sadly, the only basis that the public has to judge him on is star wars
He's also in The Pretender, and a few other things.
a bad translation can ruin the best film.
no matter how good the actors are. they will
no longer carry the story after a bad translation.
i know mr.card can't deal with every aspect of
the film, but he can put up rules for the
translators to follow... hopefully
ONLY IMAGINE: "Ender the Alien-Killer"
or: "Ender who murdered all the Aliens"
such translations of titles are quite common here
in europe. i allways thought these people choosing
the titles must be absoluteley brain-dead.
have you seen the trailer of contact? what does
it have in common with the film? or the trailer
for StarTrek - Insurrection? absolute crap!!!
IMAGINE: "Once a Boy killed 500mio Ants. But those
were not ordinary Ants...[dramaticmusicplaying]"
hoping the best for the movie
Meme of the day: I browse "Disable Sigs: Checked". So should you.
Lots of movies have had realistic zero-g scenes. 2001 did it beforeanyone else, by rotating the camera to approximate the effect from the viewer's point of view. More recent movies, like Apollo 13, have just rented the Vomit Comet, which is an airplane owned by NASA which flies in successive parabolas, and used that. At the top of each arc, there is very little gravity (well, actually, there's still 9.8 m/s^2, but it's counteracted), for about 15 seconds IIRC. They just pay NASA a chunk and rent the Comet for a day or two, and build a set inside the plane.
Switch the . and the @ to email me.
I think you have to setuid root.
-- 100% MS-Free as of 4-4-1999, 11:47:38 PST. "The lapdance is always better when the stripper is cryin'" Free Kevin,
The script isn't finished, so in order to execute it, the computer has to fill in some parts. Your installation should have a program called more whish should be able to fill in certain bits and execute it.
---
As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
I imagine Futurama would have the same impact on preserved heads that SST had on the term "buggers."
The first "50 years later" was really 46 years rounded up to the nearest 10. Add 7 years which had been rounded up to "ten years later". and you get 53 which rounds to "50 years ago".
I have discovered a truly marvelous sig, unfortunately the sig limit is too small to contain i
This is an awful lot of effort you're going through just to be funny.
May have worked better if you'd just said:
"I can't get the script to work. I've tried everything! I downloaded it from the site, and named it 'ender' in my home directory.
I typed 'ender' and it said 'bash: ender: command not found'"
They're gonna be in suits most of the time, right? CGI, with some blue-screen should probably be all that's necessary.
He's not that bad, dude.. Sure, his voice is a bit annoying, but we really don't have any clue about whether or not he can act. I mean, in SW:TPM he didn't really have a large part. Heck, there wasn't a lot of acting to be done in that flick at all.
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- Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day, but set him on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life.
Well then I might as well submit a new story saying that the Pentium II has been sent to distributers. The reason slashdot is so great is because it focuses on TODAY'S news, not news from several months ago.
Perhaps, but my point actually was that it's pointless to post a comment saying "hey, this is old news" or anything useless like that. If you knew it already, fine, just go on and read the "new" news then.
I've tried to see why people post stupid things that are completely pointless and waste everyone's time, including the posters, but I can't. I can't sink my mind to that level. It's beyond me. Maybe it's just me, but I post when I think I have something of value to add to the conversation, or something to respond to directly. I just can't see why anyone would do otherwise.
---
- Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day, but set him on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life.
Maybe the poster was trying to help slashdot become a better place. If we don't point out their errors and pretend they don't exist, then the quality of the website will deteriorate - we obviously don't want that to happen.
:-) (no offense). However, I do know "why people post stupid things". It's usually because they are stupid. Ahh well...
:P
True, but in point of fact, it's posts like these ("Hemos posts bad articles" or "this is old news") that are the primary causes of the deterioration of the system, at least in my view. Many others have expressed the same feelings.
Maybe the reason you don't see why "why people post stupid things" is because you're not understanding the poster's point - it isn't stupid to them. Everyone has the same thinking; if you don't agree with something or don't understand it, you assume it's wrong or ill-intentioned. I'm sure that the original poster had a reason completely different from what you suspect for posting their comment.
Perhaps. I don't know his intentions. I don't assume intentions. I see results. The result was that he made himself look like he was stupid.
Read my sig. This may give insight into my character.
---
- Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day, but set him on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life.
Has anyone ever heard of filming a sequel simultaneously with the original? This is a interesting concept.
Logic ... merely enables one to be wrong with authority. -- Doctor Who
While I know that Mr. Card is more than capable of defending himself, I'd like to jump in with a few points to counter yours:
:-)
Silly Sci-Fi Gear: I'm certain the amazing art and costume departments of any major studio are up to the task of making a headset look "military" enough for you. Since I've been in the Army for over a decade myself now, I've seen enough real military tech to wonder if our weapons manufacturers are capable of the same, but the fake stuff from Hollywood always looks good.
Lousy scripting: I'd certainly hope that Mr. Card is the best person to adapt his book to a movie. If you think the script is lousy, have you read the book?
Mazer being cool: Shooting from around the moon shows a certain type of mind, and that scene, although heavy with interest, is not the focal point of the movie.
Training room: As above, I'm sure the Hollywood folks are able to make a realistic looking null-G environment. Computers are amazing, no? And, the 30-year-old 2001 did OK for zero-G look.
No noise in space: View 2001. Probably MORE powerful because of the silence. Undoubtedly the test audiences and studio types will force some noise in there, but let's hope it is dialog and not "laser fire".
Illegitimi non carborundum
I rather thought that in the book, IMHO, the fight with Stilson after the monitor was removed was crucial to Ender's development. It gives us an early view of how Ender is, and how he reacts to situations. It disappoints me that they've cut that, and I think it will take longer for moviegoers who haven't read the book to identify with Ender's view of the world.
I toggled a toggle and buttoned a button, but when I got done, I was done doin' nothin'.
I'm glad that you've grown a thicker skin since the first preview of the script was posted.
:)
I think that you are doing a wonderful job. Of course, the book will always be better than the movie. I am sure that you will create an enjoyable, meaningful two hour movie.
Its just cruel telling us about the movie so far before the release date.
Try Italo Calvino, one of Umberto Eco's favorite writers... in "If on a winter's night, a traveler" he plays with reading misprinted, mistranslated, misappropiated, etc. novels... very fun and cute.
Always nice to see some literary figures appear on slashdot--too often are we limited to blurbish thoughts that dont really develop... like this one.
Thanks For the Correction, Your point is well taken, I will refer to it as anime from now on.
I agree with you completely ralian, No movie can reach the expectations that I have made in my mind.
On a different topic(sort of) I wish that more scifi/fantasy authors would take a look at japanamation, those artists are not afraid of not catering to the moronic movie viewing public. I would love to see ender's game turned into japanamation series.
First of all, I'd like to think that Starship Troopers was almost made for it's camp value rather than a true story in and of itself.... lots of cheese with some eye candy thrown in. But as a movie it was very entertaining in and of itself. While I haven't had the pleasure of reading Heinlen's original and seeing how badly it was distorted from it's original writing (and given Heinlen's record, it was probably a pretty bad representation of his work).
Ender's Game is a little different, in this respect. Character portrayal is probably one of the most important aspects of this film... Ender, obviously, but Peter and Valentine as well... after all, they are an integral part of Ender's psyche, as was pointed out in Xenocide. While the Demosthenes/Locke personae could be left out since this was basically a sideline to the story, I think the Ender/Stilson conflict really shouldn't be... IMHO the whole point of the scene exists to show that Ender is basically a "doomsday machine" ( a la Dr. Strangelove ), that is to say that he'll take a situation to it's logical conclusion and act accordingly... hence with Stilson he aims to discourage future retribution or harassment with one decisive action, which neatly parallels the government with its use of the MD device. Anyways, I'm rambling on... I guess I just hate to see any part of a work that I really enjoyed cut out or changed, regardless of practicality or marketing concerns.
----
Dave
"I love chess! It is like ballet only with more explosions!"
- Dave
What is Ender's Game? Why should we care?
No sig.
The problem here is that the script ender can not be executed!
I would fix it myself, but it's been release under an non open source license. When will these big companies learn that closed source just won't cut it anymore. I think we should boycott orsonscottcard.com until they start using the GPL.
Anyone out there want to start an ender work a-like script?
Don't worry, Uncle Orson. Some of us still remember the sword-fights from The Secret of Monkey Island.
Beg pardon? Judging from his performance as the Joker on Batman, the Animated Series, I'd say he's recovered from Skywalkerdom incredibly well.
Aw, be a sport! If George H. had only said that much, he probably would've only sounded a few evolutionary rungs above Windozers who say "Duhhhh, I double-clicked on the icon but I just got a screenful of text and no pretty buttons to push".
The foreword to Ender's Shadow describes how the project was initially undertaken, and how Mr. Card "selfishly" (his words, not mine) swiped the offer to write ES from another author...
im not sure the Jane and the "moving outside our universe" bit in xenocide could have been converted into a non cheesy special effect...its very difficult to recreate a non existant time/place visually and to give it realism...besides, hollywood screws up everything it touches anyway.
Card says:
"The new script came in at 167 pages, which was way too long. But I decided to write a full version and then let producers Lynn Hendee and Ted Ravinett help me find things that could be cut. They did so, and between us we were able to get the length down to 136 pages, which, while longer than the two-hour target length, is still reasonable. (Because of several montages, the running time of this script is probably just under two and a half hours.)"
He is unable to have subplots and still get it into the allocated time limit. I think he would add them if he could. Given that this version of the script is not new... he may have changed his mind on this. I'm sure that he would not close all doors for sequels.
I do not think when Card wrote Ender's Game he had a movie in mind, had he done so, I think the book would have been far different. That is another reason why he is having trouble fitting all the material in the book in.
Ender's Game is a book that I have treasured for years, I look forward to seeing it be made in a movie, but still wish that he would stick to the plot of the book as much as possible.
Is it progress if a cannibal uses a fork?
I suggest that you've not seen enough animation. :) While a great deal of american cartoons and anime at large is action driven that is mostly an artifact of story and plot. "Heroic" characters weilding futuristic weapons or driving fantastic machines don't need emotion. Tom & Jerry don't need emotion.
Try "Robot Carnival" for some anime with emotion.
Sorry. I meant that the boys in the school weren't supposed to identify with them. I wasn't talking about the reader. There are several levels at play here.
Make that fajitas and quesadillas, of course.
may i recommend denise richard's part as the world's least convincing nuclear physicist in the last james bond movie, then?
Maybe the reason you don't see why "why people post stupid things" is because you're not understanding the poster's point - it isn't stupid to them. Everyone has the same thinking; if you don't agree with something or don't understand it, you assume it's wrong or ill-intentioned. I'm sure that the original poster had a reason completely different from what you suspect for posting their comment.
I suppose no one could live up to the type of hype and scrutiny that he had to go through but I just don't think he's a very good actor. He came off as whiney, he messed up some lines, etc.
Oh, you mean that he played perfectly into being the father of Luke Skywalker! Although, I have to say, Luke did, over the course of the three movies, brow a sack and quit whining so much. NOw, if we could only ger rid of that whiny aspect for the blond "boy" character that Lukas keeps using...
It is by caffiene alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the beans of java that thoughts acquire speed, hands acquire
"which was written after work on the movie began. The aliens were always Buggers in the first four books, Shadow's use of "Formics" is revisionism. :)"
No, it isn't. I remember quite clearly some exposition in one of the first two books in which it is explained that the "buggers" were called one thing in reports and official documents (by the scientists), but were called "buggers" by the press, _and_ by the scientists in private conversation. Granted, I haven't read any of the books since they were new, so "Formics" might not have been the official bugger nomenclature, but "bugger" wasn't their official name, either.
Neopets - the best free game on the Int
This is clear in Ender's Shadow...
:)
... which was written after work on the movie began. The aliens were always Buggers in the first four books, Shadow's use of "Formics" is revisionism.
------
japanamation
Sorry, this unnerves me a great deal.
Most folks who truly enjoy 'japanamation' know it as anime (pronounced anni-may).
I apologize for nitpicking, if you did not know, but if you use the correct nomenclature you might gain a little more respect from the people in power who create anime.
UncleOrson, although it is visually necessary, it is unfortunate that you were required to cut from Ender's Game screenplay. It would be refreshing to see a film that crept over the 2-2.5 hour mark to save the story. I'm sure the majority of Slashdot posters would be willing to sit through that extra 1/2 hour to see your complete vision.
It is also unfortunate that you have to schlep around to undeserving mass market studios. Ender's Game would be a crown jewel for any start-up independent studio house. They might be able to do the film more to your vision.
Good luck in your efforts.
I (and the hundered or so other that I know about) are looking forward to seeing Ender's Game when it is complete.
Well, after seeing TPM Card thought he sucked too... So don't expect him to perform in Ender's Game the same as he did in TPM, he will be much better.
And he better be, or this movie will be doomed, and that would be very sad...
Sticking feathers up your butt does not make you a chicken - Tyler Durden
I don't remember it from Ender's Game either, but in the movie, the slang has been changed from "bugger" to "woolly ants", "ants", or "woollies". I think this is for the reason that is given in Ender's Shadow for the push to call them Formics (the fact that bugger is unpleasant slang in some parts).
Addlepated - punk & metal
Back to the Future II and III were filmed simultaneously.
Barbie of Borg - She doesn't just Assimilate, She Accessorizes too!
Well this is Card we're talking about, so maybe a Deus Ex Machina ?
I expect you can do zero-g with people on the end of counterbalanced or servo-controlled[0] arms. Of course, that means finding an actor who can actually DO this stuff....
[0] Effectively a long armed industrial robot with its feedback set up not to hold position, but to just apply one body-weight worth of force upwards at all times. Remove from film digitally, naturally.
Sorry, I ran out of points when I moderated UncleOrson up in a previous post. I marked it with a funny, but it didn't take it.
-Robin
Hello little man. I will destroy you!
I'm a dumbass. When I posted this, my mod points were undone. GRRR!!
Hello little man. I will destroy you!
Looks like OSC is also willing to participate in web-based discussions. So how about a /. interview with him? I think it'll be very interesting and informative.
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I agree that such violence so early in the movie could potentially turn off a large portion of the audience from what it really meant. I think there are a lot of things that movie makers can do too much of, too early, that turns people off of movies - "gross" things come to mind.
One movie that comes to mind that had a lot of violence but managed to portray it in a meaningful way was Braveheart. As for a movie that had too much of something that turned me off of it - how about Beloved. There were several scenes that just didn't help the movie along, like watching how beloved ate so closely, yum yum.
Damn straight. Takin out the Stiltson-Ender fight ruins the whole thing. It's a shame that the studios are going to try to dumb down this awesome story just to make it viewable to a wider audience. Hell, they're probably trying to give it a PG rating so the kiddies can see the movie... also, taking the responsibility and remorse off Ender screws the movie too... the whole point of the story was this kid's hatred of himself for killing the buggers... *sigh* I can tell already that this movie is gonna be a dissapointment...
"Stupid people suck."
I've read the four books of this saga, but can't remember any Formics. They called them Buggers all along in those books as far as I remember. I think I would have remembered.
Nothing in this world can recapture those hours reading Ender's Game. Certainly not a movie, not even on a copied DVD. *grin*
- Steeltoe
http://www.debunkingskeptics.com/
Maybe Anime might have been a better choice? It's cheaper, and the full story has a better chance of being captured. I think it would make a great Anime series, but maybe that's because I see a lot of paralells with it and the Evangelion Series. Has Card expressed any interest in this medium? Has anyone else?
Well, I read the original script back when it was released... a couple of years ago, I believe. I must say that, so far, this new script is much better. It seems to stay true to the book a bit more, although it does add a good deal of action. But I guess you need that for a movie. Also, in the original, Graff was female, which kinda wrecks a lot. In the new one, Anderson is female, which is fine. Anderson's gender was slighty... indeterminate in the book anyway.
I must say that I think Mr. Card has done quite a good job on this so far, and I hope this movie doesn't wind up dying like most decent Sci-Fi ones seem to.
As a slight promotional note, for those interested, there is a MOO (Multi-user, Object-Oriented) based on the Battle School. This is official, to my knowledge, done with Mr. Card's permission. The web page is at www.ansible.org.
-RickHunter
--"We are gray. We stand between the candle and the star."
--Gray council, Babylon 5.
Yes, he is that bad, dude. They didn't call him "Mannequin Skywalker" on the set for nothing, you know...
Pity...I feel that the entire series has potential.
i'm currently engulfed in this book for the first time, and i'm probably going to go finish it after this, but i realized one thing. the personalities of all of the children in the book are that of adults, how are kids going to be able to assume the roles?
So long, and thanks for all the fish.
Its been posted forever already. I like the book - don't get me wrong... but, wouldn't this work better in animation than with live actors, ala Earth 2 which is coming out real soon any time now? Animation also would make capturing Card's vision easier. And then we don't get into the fuss of finding actors at different ages, either.
Scott A. Carson
I enjoyed reading this new script and I think it is enormously improved over the previous version that you had posted. Ender's Game is a very complex story, from many angles, and with any screen treatment there are always going to be parts cut that someone out there doesn't "like being left out" :) I also think its amazing that you continue to write stories in the Ender universe (given your many other interests in writing and the obvious demands of too many good ideas, not enough time to write). Has there been thought, by you, your agent, or publisher about licensing a series of stories in the Ender universe to other writers? I realize that in itself would represent a committment of your time, but I can think of a half dozen writers that I would like to see explore Ender's universe. Then again, I don't see many other speculative fiction writers that have your ability to explore the emotional sides of human nature. I *certainly* would not want to tackle this difficult material! :) Also, thank you for replying about my post on animation. I agree with you that the state of the art still isn't quite there from the standpoint that you'd have to have the RIGHT collection of animators doing it, along with the requisite $$$ and backing from the studio. Its probably hard enough making a deal in Hollywood with live action and FX than it is to try and make an animation deal that you, the studio doing it, and the fans would be happy with! Scott A. Carson
Scott A. Carson
News has an expiration date, upon which those who haven't heard it lose their chance? Wow. I'd better keep more up to date on my reading. Wouldn't want to miss anything.
Thanks. I pray the producer|director|moneychanger does not do harm to another good story. Troopes is an embarrassment.
In it's class; I am not sure I know why The Matrix did as well as it did with the storyline. But it was visual from the start. -d
I don't think that disqualifies the story from being "for children". I certainly appreciated the violence and cruelty of the story when I read it when I was 8 or 9. I certainly hope that it could be presented in a way that would make kids ask their parents tough questions, rather than just wish they could kill each and get away with it.
I don't know why Hollywood and really all of American culture thinks that hiding ugly realistic violence, such as in Ender's Game, from children protects them from anything, when they are constantly being bombarded by unrealistic, bang-bang violence in every other movie. I would prefer a child see Ender kick Stilson to death than to see a pro-wrestler fake a single punch. The difference between these two examples is simple: Ender hates himself for winning, unlike the wrestler.
This part really explains to me the way that the adults want Ender to be. They put him in a situation where he would have to kill to win so he killed. If he hadn't seen another way that it could go, or had done it just because he liked it, then he would have been a monster like Peter was. This was the way we get to know him. I don't know how it could be changed to work with him fighting with Peter, as the script currently has the dialog go. I hope that Mr. Card will put something back in to cover that view we get into Ender's psyche. It really points out why they want him instead of Peter or Valentine.In any case, I hope that the movie will either live up to the spirit of the book, or just be a good movie on it's own terms. It may be too much to hope for both.
Steve
I think the best way to show the battle room would be from Ender's perspective. This would allow the audience to see the dissorientation he overcomes as he throws out the spacial orientation that everyone else is stuck with. Shift the camera's orientation as he moves. The idea is for it to be nearly nausiating at first, but steadying as he figures it out and it gets smoother. I can't say that it would be easy to film, I think it could be done really well. Leaving out this concept would take away the part of the story that explains what makes him such a good tactician.
Steve
I loved Ender's Game. It's a classic piece of sci-fi literature that I've read and enjoyed many many times. One of the few things I did not like about it, however, and which I was hoping would not be in the movie, was the fantasy game with the giant which Ender outwits. I always thought it was unnecessary and distracting to the story. It also seemed silly that Ender could get past the giant which was supposed to be unpassable. I know, I know, the game was "self-modifying" and was actually being secretly controlled by the AI named Jane, but the programmers' response to Ender's slaying of the giant and entering an entirely new area of the game should have been to realize that something strange was up--that either someone or something must be hacking into the game because they didn't write that code. That the powers that be simply accepted this instead of launching an intense investigation always irked me.
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James Cameron wanted a real novelization for The Abyss so he asked Card to do it. Card wrote a first chapter which detailed the main characters' development since childhood. Cameron gave these to the cast members before filming began to help them get into their characters. As the filming progressed, Cameron gave the footage immediately to Card to assist him in his novel. Card, in turn, gave his writings immediately to Cameron and his cast to assist them in the film. Both enjoyed this process and it seems to have worked as both the movie and the novel were great.
Looking for political forums? Check out "The World Forum".
This makes some sense, however, IMHO, not anymore. I first heard about Starship Troopers mentioned in the same breath as the rumour of an Ender's Game movie (a third one mentioned was a Ringworld film, but this apparently never came about).
However, Starship Troopers came and went, and by the time Ender's Game will see the silver screen will be the rather distant memory of a somewhat cool movie quite some time ago.
So, changing the name no longer makes sense!
"Buggers" rolls off the tongue, "woolies" don't. It's my sincere hope that they'll realize they're solving a problem that doesn't exist and change the name back.
On other subjects, the Battleroom will apparently be entirely CGI. Which is the only thing that makes sense when you think about it.
As for the actor, the guy who played in the Sixth Sense has been suggested as a better Ender than Jake before, but unfortunately he doesn't fit on counts of age and size (OSC wants Ender to be smaller than the other kids (this at least Jake should be able to do)).
However OSC laments how he has to find good child actors for a dozen or so roles, so there's no reason he can't be used in another role. -- Eythain
Well, the problem isn't merely turning the audience off with violence. For the movie to be successful, Ender needs to be a sympathetic character. Having him beat another schoolchild to death within the first 5 minutes of the movie is maybe not the best way to do this. Granted, in the book, we don't find out that Stilson is dead until somewhat later on. But even if the audience doesn't find out that Stilson dies, Ender isn't going to look too good in their eyes when he continues to brutally assault someone who he's already knocked down.
The basic challenge the movie will face is to bring Ender's inner life to the audience. When we read the book, we get a lot of the reasoning Ender's decision. Bringing that same reasoning to a movie audience without being ham-handed about it or eating a lot of screen time will take a good bit of work. One possible solution is to have the entire story framed as a flashback in the head of an older Ender, and having that older Ender provide some narration for the flashbacks.
I suppose I should go read the actual script and see how this sort of thing is handled.
I've been racking my brains for ways to make the battle room look convincing, but to no avail so far. The only ways i thought of were CGI(very expensive i would think), or a tank of water(which would require a lot of work to make it look right). Does anyone have any ideas on how to make it look right. And also could CGI even be done?
Does anyone have any ideas on how to make the battle room look right? I've racked my brains but i could only think of either a tank of water or CGI. Does anyone else have any ideas?
Actually, the impression that I got during the denouement of the book was that there was a sympathy and understanding with the buggers. To me this is evident when Ender reaches the end of the computer simulation. At this point he seems to have a very strong connection with the buggers.
One must also remember that in order to truly understand someone/something (as Ender did in the final battle with Buggers) you must identify with them and understand their viewpoint on life.
But hey, I could be wrong, it's been quite a while since I've read it.
I think that "The Lost World" suffered even worse than "Jurassic Park". They cut out half of the book, took out some characters, added others, added about an hour to the movie of stuff that was never even remotely close to being in the book, and now they want to make a third movie that is being written by someone other than Michael Crichton. I hate when Hollywood takes away from the authors original intentions just to try to make a buck, and their protrayal sucks compared to the original piece. You'd think they would learn by now.
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To illustrate this point, let me bring the recent "Bicentennial Man". The story, in its original form, was a beautifully moving tale of a robot that was more human than any man. The movie was... a romantic comedy?! I disliked it completely. I felt that it brought in elements which simply did not belong, and made many of the elements which endeared the book to me seem paltry in comparison.
It's all a matter of taste, but I feel that a "movieization", for lack of a better word, ruins any book.
Hypocrite that I am, I'm still gonna watch it...
-raph
I don't think there's anything wrong with using Jake Lloyd for Ender, besides the infamous "Star Wars Curse".hahaha. I do, however, doubt that someone that young can fight as effectively as did Ender, or portray it accurately. Ender had the fighting instincts of a killing machine, which an urban Westerner simply does not, and frankly, I don't think you could get a ten year old to train in a gym for 15 hours a day seven days a week. Heck, you couldn't get me or anyone I know to put in that much training.
-raph
I've been waiting for this movie for years. I read the book a LONG time ago, and I enjoy it so much, I've had to buy 3 copies (I keep wearing it out). I hope the screenplay is as good as the book, and doesnt suffer as much as "Jurassic Park" did. It'd be great if they did a screenplay on the "Worthing Saga" series as well.
=======
There was never a genius without a tincture of madness.
I didn't realize they were using that little brat for Ender. He couldn't act to save his life. And Card was afraid that he would "culkinize" the part? Yeah, that could have been a problem, but at least Culkin can express emotion and act a LITTLE. I don't know if I want to see this now. I always pictured Ender as a bit of a nerd, and that brat is more of a pretty boy.
=======
There was never a genius without a tincture of madness.
I'm sorry, but she wasn't in that movie for her acting abilities. She's built like a blimp, and men love it.
=======
There was never a genius without a tincture of madness.
What are you smoking? My 2 year old nephew could have done better! And that line "you told me to stay in the cockpit"... What, did he have to read that off the cue card sitting in front of him? I've never heard anyone speak in such a whiny voice that was also so devoid of emotion (except maybe my ex)
=======
There was never a genius without a tincture of madness.
I refuse, on principle, to have a
You've got to be kidding. I'm trying to give you (or him) the benefit of the doubt here, but I can't see how on earth you could say he has talent--at least, any more talent than any other kid his age. :P
I think Lucas gave him far too many lines...or at least, he made him sound far too mature. It's like he's this little boy, and then suddenly he's a little boy trying to recite the lines of a script for someone older. It's not at all convincing.
If I remember right, Ender was much more mature and intelligent than Young Darth could convincingly portray...
Chris
I don't think he should have added a female role to the screenplay, especialy not one as annoying as Anderson seems from the script. I didn't get the impression at all that she added "a counterpoint for the adult roles in Battle School, introducing a conflict" as Card put it. Rather, she seemed thoughtlessly and pointlessly argumentative. Why add a female role if you're just going to make her a ditz?
It bothers me that Card seems to be making these changes (adding a female role, buggers -> formics) for the purpose of becoming more politically correct, not necessarily improving the plot in any way.
I'm one of the old farts that still remembers your work in Compute! and other computer stuff before the novels/stories started. Thanks for all the enjoyment you've given me over the years. The "C" section in sci-fi is still the first section I always hit when i visit a bookstore and your webpage with the texts of your books has gotten me through many a boring, lonely night.
Silly Sci-Fi Gear: The script stumbles immediately by calling for everyone on the bridge to be wearing computers. While this may be realistic, its hard to take military guys dressed like McD's employees very seriously. With movies, its really important to project the right image. This can be done -- take the Marines in Aliens for example. They used tech -- IR, trackers, cameras, etc -- but they also used Big Guns, bad-ass body armor and a gung-ho attitude.
Of course, these being naval guys, the best way to make them bad-ass is by making them British (consider the change in the Imperials from Star Wars to Empire). Even the British, however, will look silly with McDonald's headsets on.
Lousy scripting: Woolies? You expect people to be scared of aliens nicknamed "Woolies"? You gotta be kidding; how do you expect people to take a threat named after long underwear seriously? Additionally, a lot of the script reads poorly; just pick a section of lines and try saying them. Finally, they try to establish Mazer as cool the wrong way -- you need a valient charge into the enemy fleet, diving through swarms of lasers and missiles and enemy ships, attacking the Queen's ship in what would otherwise be a suicide mission. Instead, they shoot a missile from around a moon. Right.
Think about The Hunt for Red October. When did Ramius seem like a naval genius? When they said he was a genius? Or when he risked ramming the Neptune Massive and avoided the torpeado through sheer intuition (while the rest of the crew sh*t themselves)?
The training room won't work: Simply, the training room scenes described in the book just won't work on film. Besides the technical challenges, the action will have to be simplified too much to be really meaningful. Its simply a matter of not translating from book to screen (unless we get some brilliant writing to make up for it, which I haven't seen).
Too much attention to detail: This is a toughie. I mean, that moron at the Sci-Fi convention who insists that the X-Wings in Star Wars shouldn't have made noise is correct in that sound doesn't conduct in space. However, there's a *reason* that Lucas had the space fighters make noise: it would have been lousy without it. Experience tells us that explosions and fighters and war make noise. It'll look odd without it, technically correct or not. These are the sorts of concessions you make for a decent film.
The only thing that might save this film is a kick-ass job on the director's part. A good director can make up for a multitude of sins by altering the script or coming up with original ways of showing things. Still, I also doubt that will happen in this case.
I'd hate to see Ender's Game turn into a Wing Commander-quality movie.
----
Every year during my review, I just pray the words "slashdot.org" aren't mentioned.
However, I may be overconvcerned about this. I'm more worried that they add tons of space-battle footage (since this *is* a story about humans vs aliens) at to make the film be what was expected for the general audience rather than those familar with the book. If the latter is true, there should be almost no space shots in this, maybe a docking scene, but that's it. No battles, no nothing.
"Pinky, you've left the lens cap of your mind on again." - P&TB
"I can see my house from here!" - ST:
I find it hard to complain about an author that has written several of my favorite books, all quite different. Ender's Game, Songmaster, Speaker for the Dead, Wyrms, Seventh Son, Pastwatch, and Treasure Box. I have disliked a few as well: Xenocide, Folk of the Fringe, and Prentice Alvin, but great artists have great works and secondary works (i.e. works that I like and works that I don't).
I think the charge of retelling the same story is a weak one. Card has written better in more genres than any author I have read (Suspense, Sci-fi, historical fiction, Fantasy). In fact when he has explicitly retold a story, as in Ender's Shadow or his novelization of The Abyss, it is with fresh insights that enriched my experience of the original.
Indeed variations on a theme is an honored tradition in art. Does anyone think Van Gogh drew too many sunflowers, or that Austen wrote too many novels about romance among the landed elite? (Bonus points if you find published expressions of these opinions, which no doubt exist.)
In short, to dislike his books or particularily his series is quite fair. To challenge his artisitic integrity because of this, is not.
--
"L'IT c'est moi!"
I can't get the script to work. I've tried everything! I downloaded it from the site, and named it 'ender' in my home directory. ./ender: Permission denied'
I typed 'ender' and it said 'bash: ender: command not found'
So I realized . wasn't in my $PATH, so I typed './ender' and it said 'bash:
So I typed 'chmod 700 ender', ran it again and it said './ender: EXT: command not found'
So I opened up the file and added a #! before EXT, thinking that EXT might be the shell it needs, but I don't have EXT installed on my system.
So my questions are:
a) What is this EXT shell that the script was written in?
b) How can I get this script to run under Linux?
c) What does this script do?
Maybe I'll just stick to compiled languages, scripting languages seem like more pain than their worth!
--
Why can't I moderate something "Wrong" or at least "Grossly Misinformed"?
I loved Ender's Game. And Loved it the way it was orginally. Buggers becomming something else? How else would it Ender's game be unique? and the brutal murder of that fat kid being taken out?! I dont believe that.. that was one of the msot deeply emotional bits of the whole story, the realization at the end the way he mirroed it by killing the other kid.. truly unique piece of writing, I wish it would remain as it was. Bean is my hero btw! So is ender.. but ender was almost robotic..
--
He has this attitude, "If it was worth selling once, it is worth selling twice."
:-)
Many times he has written essentially the same story and sold it as a short story and a novella, or as a novella and a novel. The story is usually pretty good, but reading the second version always leaves me with this irritating deja vu since I know that I have read this before, but I know it wasn't quite this...so I re-read the whole story but I am irritated all the way through.
OK, so turning a book into a movie is standard, but it is too close to a habit of his that eventually made me stop reading him.
Now if only Steven Brust will come out with another few stories...
Cheers,
Ben
My usual seat in the cluetrain is at A HREF="http://pub4.ezboard.com/biwethey.ht
I am criticizing Card, not for being a good author, but for failing to clearly draw a line in the sand when a work is done. I see other authors writing similar stories (eg Zelazny) but no matter how clearly the characters are essentially repeats, the story itself is different.
Card is the only one that I know of who publishes the same exact story, same people, places, and plot, several times. And for me personally the result is incredibly frustrating to read.
Incidentally I mentioned Brust as an extreme counter-example. Brust plays games with his stories, so much so that frequently you would swear that his stories are written by different authors!
Also the games are themselves interesting. Remember that deja vu that I complain about from Card? Read To Reign in Hell from Brust. There is about a page-and-a-half in there that is repeated. Exactly. It isn't a mistake, it was a deliberate way to emphasize that a small confrontation near the beginning of the story is the same as the major war at the climax. Did I get irritated? You bet! So irritated that I went back and verified that it was a word-for-word repeat, then I read the lead-in to each section and verified that it was deliberate.
You see, Brust understood how irritating deja vu can be, and so used it for an artistic device. Card does not and so has permanently irritated me. Which is why I will read Brust instead of Card any time I can...
Cheers,
Ben
My usual seat in the cluetrain is at A HREF="http://pub4.ezboard.com/biwethey.ht
I would say that film and books are two different media with different properties, and when a film version of a novel fails, it's likely because the filmmaker is not properly taking advantage of the medium.
I can think of two examples of films when stand very well in their own right apart from the books upon which they're based: Contact and Blade Runner. Both films knew just what to chanage to take advantage of the things that film does well (visuals, mood, and emotion) and drop the things which film does not do so well at (detailed debate and internal thoughts).
Both films I believe produce something which is very distinctive. Are they better than their novels? They're different. They're just as good, in a different way. (Well, actually I liked Contact the film better than the novel, personally.)
Film versions of books CAN be done well.
(Sorry about the alliteration...)
Kubrick had the scenes of spaceships (and on the moon) silent, and nobody complained. (OK, he had all those "atmospheric" classical music pieces playing...) I don't think anybody has ever said "2001" wasn't a "decent" film.
------ "Darn floor. Big bite." (Koko the gorilla's best attempt at explaining the experience of an earthquake.)
I'm glad Jake Lloyd will be playing Ender. I was afraid that his being in Phantom Menace would ruin the careeer of someone who obviously has some talent.
I guess I shouldn't have worried too much -- after all, Harrison Ford managed to live down being cast as Han Solo. (True, Hamill didn't survive being Skywalker ... but I'm not sure that much was lost in that case.)
>Or do you just not trust the production team?
I think this is probably the sticking point for most people. It certainly is for me.
>But has Card any screenplay experience?
Abyss. The book is worth the read too. It was written at the same time the movie was being filmed and written. The book was necessary for the movie, and the movie formed the book. A very interesting synergy. I'd like to see more projects of this nature. BTW, after the book, the movie ending actually makes sense.
-matt
Hi Orson,
Thanks for dropping by to chat with us. It's nice to be able to interact with you personally as well as be transported and carried away by your stories. Are there other forums where you do this as well?
[And before somebody chimes in with 'it's in his own best interests to do so', so what? The same could be said for many other stories/discussions here where the people concerned can't be bothered to participate or don't want to weather the inevitable flames and snide digs. I don't blame them, and when somebody does decide to enter the fray anyway, I think they deserve recognition.]
cheers,
-matt
When Graff says "Who stopped the formics when they invaded fifty years ago?" it should be "sixty years ago" if you add the "50 years later" and "ten years later" notices.
--
grappler
Vidi, Vici, Veni
Orson,
I have been always curious to ask you if you ever drew any of the social dynamics of _Ender's Game_ from _Lord of the Flys_ by by William Golding? For me, your books have taught as much about human behaviour as any sociology or psychology book; at least within the context of the personalities presented in the plot.
I really do think it is too bad that Peter Brook (Who directed the original _Lord of the Flys_ movie) isn't around to direct this film.
-AP
P.S. Come to think of it, have you ever considered using the sociological behaviour patterns of the average SlashDot user as the premise for a book? :)
Speaking of SlashDot, howabout a SlashDot interview!
Write Malda and set that one up!
I got the impression from the script excerpt posted that Card was doing his best to keep most of the brutality intact (I don't really like the fact that the fight with Stilson has been dropped, but there are other chances to keep the themes alive). I think Card has the integrity to make a true-to-theme movie or none at all. You're absolutely right - a Disnified movie would be a disaster, but I don't think he would allow that to happen.
Hollywood can get away with making this movie as long as they're very careful to market it to adults and not children... It'll be difficult to keep a movie starring mostly kids from looking like a kids' movie in a trailer, but it can certainly be done. And I don't think anyone who goes for this script will be dumb enough to try to bring in young audiences with it.
/* The beatings will continue until morale improves. */
I didn't know about it, so it's news to me. If you knew about it, good for you. Let those who had no idea learn the facts too, okay?
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- Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day, but set him on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life.
I really don't care if Lloyd plays ender, just as long as he does it right. one of my main fears is that Ender's Game will be toned down for a kids audience because it has kids in it. The plot is so much deeper then TPM. You would think OSC would see it as an affront to his own beliefs to not make this movie good. Was his intented audience for the original novel children?
He mentioned that high quality children actors are hard to find, this makes sense, just consider that Lloyd was the best choice out of thousands for TPM.
So with that in mind wouldn't it be cool if some producer went out on a limb and decided to make this all CG? we have gotten to the point where emotions can be conveyed through CG. I imagine that the battles would pose a problem to any director, and CG would be an obvious solution. So why not make the whole movie CG? it would provide a solution to having to find good child actors; you can just create them.
anway, just my lousy 2 cents.
Blade Runner.
Dune. Narration almost always gets in the way. If you need narration in turning a book to a movie, either you're doing it wrong, or the movie should not be made.
--The basis of all love is respect
2001 did quite well for its time with rotating sets and all. Note the flight attendents in this movie. They either were directed well in doing "velcro-walking" (pretending that velcro, not gravity, held their feet to the floor), or they were actually wearing velcro.
Even more interesting: those ugly hats they were wearing. As near as I can tell, this got around the issue of long hair, which doesn't fall nicely to the shoulders in zero-G. Today, the real way to handle this might be to "scrub" and computer-animate all long hair in post-production. Since this is expensive, one may cheat by making short hair the fashion for all characters in zero-G. This may not be too unrealistic--do you want long, flowing hair where it can float into your face? Kubrick couldn't do this because women just didn't have short hair in those days--it would freak people out. But now we have Ripley and Sinead!
--The basis of all love is respect
hate leads to suffering, suffering leads to pain and pain leads to excessive quoting of popular science fiction characters.
dave
Take a look at the other books (Speaker for the Dead, Xenocide and Children of the Mind). Ender's Game was rather juvenile, but the other three were definitely not. I can't speak for Ender's Shadow (I just started reading it), but I certainly enjoyed the first four. Card definitely takes a look at some interesting subjects in Speaker, Xenocide, and Children - further, they're not shoot-em-up action books like EG.
Correction: I misposted the link to the LOTR page. I gave a fan page. Apparently, this is the official one. Sorry about that. It's very hard to read with lynx, however. :-(
"Websters" is hardly the end-all and be-all of whether something constitutes a `word' or not. Most of us laugh at "Websters", you know. The OED is a good starting place, much better than any old "Websters" silliness, but even that isn't absolute. Words aren't what you think they are. They derive from many sources, and anyone, especially a native speaker, has full licence to invent new ones.
In this case, however, I did not. In fact, the word in question has seen use for around twenty-four centuries at least, and probably more. I suppose you'd try to tell me that fajitas and quedadillas "weren't words" either, just because "Websters" was ignorant of them.
Furthermore, "Websters" is not a well-defined term. Any one can publish a "Websters". And many people have. And most of them are crap.
Most importantly, I already posted a reference in this thread which, if one were to follow the link, would in graphic and offensive detail explain precisely what the word means, and why. Today, I choose not to violate the delicate sensibilities of the gentle readership of this august forum by printing verbatim such foul material as to be found in that link. Kindly respect that position. Here's another such link that the prurient may read if they're interested.
The alleged connection to pædophile is suspect at best, since the pædo- stem did not appear in pedicator. Circa 110 AD, Suetonius wrote in De Vita Caesarum, Divus Iulius (The Lives of the Caesars, The Deified Julius), citing the earlier C. Licinius Calvus, the following: Bithynia quicquid et pedicator Caesaris umquam habuit.
I don't see why pedicator would be related to pedometer or pedology. I think you're confused pæd- (often written paed-) and ped-. The prevalent America spelling of pædophile as pedophile not only confuses those of us accustomed to and reliant upon proper stemming, it probably also annoys the pedestrians and podiatrists, with the only folks happy with the confusion being the pædogogues. :-)
And I'll check now...
Nope, no mention of Formics. It's all from a kid's perspective. "Formics" is a very adult word. Of course, Ender has the brains of a grown-up kid.
I do hope that the Stilson thing remains. It's disturbing but crucial, after all. Kids kill.
Oh, God, I hope no one makes an Ender-Columbine connection and boycotts the movie...
Ceterum censeo Microsoftam esse delendam.
Don't get too mad at Mr Coward; "Anonymous Coward" is a catch-all name for anyone who posts anonymously. It took me a while to figure that out too. The various cretins who've been lobbing mudballs at you and your work under that name are each discrete entities, most of them barely literate. While certainly your books are worthy of some criticism, the thick-skulled posts of the Anonymous Cowards rarely qualify as such.
While I have your attention, let me say that I've been an ardent admirer of your work since the early eighties, "Maps in a Mirror" is my favourite anthology besides my Arthur Clarke omnibus, and "Unaccompanied Sonata" is the most beautiful SF story I've ever read; I come back to it again and again. Thank you, Mr Card.
He wrote a novelisation of the movie. The resulting novel, of course, was far better than the film.
Someday someone will write a script about slashdot not posting an article about Card or Ender's game for an entire week. Scary, I know.
Bugger means sodomy in many contexts.
And I think you meant pedophile.
as well as cutting the fight between Ender and Stilson.
I hope this doesn't mean that changed the death of that boy. It's tragic when they neuter strong writing (think Lord Of the Flies).
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Internet Explorer (n): Another bug -- that is, a feature that can't be turned off -- in Windows.
then you put in a couple of gratuitous breast shots so the film has an R
:)
In Australia, it often works the other way. A few tits & ass are OK but lots of graphic violence gets an R rating. Many movies that are PG in the USA get R down here due to the amount of violence. (Predator 2 for instance).
It's always amazed me that violence is OK to censors in the USA but sex is not. Oh well, descended from Puritans vs descended from convicts, I guess
I left my body to science, but I'm afraid they've turned it down...
Expect two more books in the Alvin Maker series: Crystal City and Master Alvin
:-) )
:)
Very cool--just finished Heartfire before the holidays and was wondering what was next.
"And if you don't know that Alvin is really Joseph Smith and Arthur Steward is really Brigham Young and that they're going to...(forget the whole quote), then You Haven't Been Paying Attention!" (I never noticed the parallels between the two, personally...
I knew that Card grew up as a Mormon, and that had some influence in the Alvin Maker series--but I wouldn't have known enough about the Book of Mormon to make the connection either
Warning: Topic Drift
Occasionally I see someone mention the Alvin Maker series here on Slashdot, but not so often as books that are "more sci-fi-ish." I stumbled on Seventh Son by accident--almost literally. I found the book lying under a pile of computer junk in my apartment and have no idea where it came from. I read the whole series so far within the last 3 months--and I definately see a message for the open source community. There are tons of parallels; Alvin, Verily, the crystal city, the golden plow...RMS, ESR, the Internet, the GPL. Hmm, GPL, Golden PLow. Just noticed that... My point is this: if you like Orson Card but don't like to stray to far from sci-fi, you still may want to give this series a chance. If you read fantasy, then you'll probably like it anyway.
numb
"Formics" did not occur in Ender's Game. But as I sat with Lynn Hendee, one of the producing partners on Ender's Game, watching Starship Troopers in order to see how much damage that film was going to do to Ender's Game, we realized that it had the potential to hurt us in only one way: If we used the term "buggers," someone might think of "bugs" and remember the ludicrous "brain bug" scene in S-Troop and start laughing uncontrollably at an inappropriate moment in Ender's Game. So we changed the name in the script, and I "previewed" the name change in Ender's Shadow. The look of the buggers will also be changed - insectoid in general body structure, but radically different from the aliens in S-Troop.
...
Apart from that, the only thing we discovered in watching S-Troop is how deeply dumb Hollywood filmmakers can sometimes be. Here you have a film whose storyline is so lame that only a twelve-year-old could like it enough to see it twice - and then you put in a couple of gratuitous breast shots so the film has an R and those twelve-year-olds can't see it in the theaters! Needless to say, those of us making Ender's Game will make very sure that it has a rating that will allow its ENTIRE audience to attend
- Orson Scott Card
The reason I refused to consider animation was that, despite the passions of those who love animation, until recently I had never seen animation that could express human emotion at all. Stories that are event-driven work well in animation, but character-driven stories don't - a fact well known in the industry, even if animation fans often don't understand it.
However, there recently has been one animated film that finally broke the "character barrier": Iron Giant. Genuinely witty writing was joined with art that actually made the faces expressive and brought animation to a point where at least a few nuances of expression could be shown. Maybe this was achievable all along, but the point is, few tried. So, with the right team, an animated Ender's Game might be do-able.
Right now, though, we remain committed to the live-action version.
- Orson Scott Card
"Formics" is the formal name for the aliens, "bugger" is common slang. This is clear in Ender's Shadow (worth reading BTW) but I can't remember if it is in Ender's Game.
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"L'IT c'est moi!"
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Then again, I wouldn't be surprised if pedication weren't precisely the connotation that Card intended. You were not supposed to identify with or in any way like the Buggers.
Aren't the two media of books and film fundamentaly different? Do you think there's something about Ender that specifically does not lend itself to a movie format? Or do you just not trust the production team? I think Ender is feasible, although don't know how it will work out. Certainly having Card write the screenplay means that no one will be able to say that it was contrary to the author's wishes. But has Card any screenplay experience?
Which books have successfully translated into movies? Which have failed? What do you think the cause was? I believe that no single cause exists. Consider Dune as movie and book. I don't think many people were very happy with the movie. I don't think it was the actors, but the time allotment. Can Ender be told in the 2½ hours allotted? Is there too much internal dialogue for it to work out, or is there enough action?
A more important movie coming up for next Christmas (or the following one) is the first of three installments to The Lord of the Rings. Details are at the The Lord of the Rings movie page, with casting photos and FAQs/gossip available as well, plus an IMDB entry. In this case, it's not going to be too short the way Dune was, since it's going to be three movies. I don't know that even Card dreams of doing the whole Ender quartet as movies. I hope not.
The script that I wrote this past summer and posted early this fall is a complete rewrite - the old script was thrown out and I went back to the book and started from scratch. The first script was from the adult point of view, trying to make it more fundable by not relying so heavily on child actors. That was a mistake, because the emotional heart of the story is the relationships among the children. So the first strategy was tossed, and this script is absolutely from the children's point of view. Works a lot better now.
I wish I could post the whole thing, because there are some cool surprises that I wish I could have included in a new edition of Ender's Game. But what the new script definitely is NOT is "essentially the same" as the previous one. And the reaction of Hollywood makes that clear - this script is working, and it's now only a matter of time, I think, before we get the package put together and the film under way.
- Orson Scott Card
But, I am looking forward to it nevertheless. I hope it remains true to form. They *must* do the war room properly. Most of the game plot hinges on it. I don't know how they're going to make it look Zero G'ish realistically, but I'd like to see! Either way, I suggest reading the book... it took me 8 hours to wax it off - 6 hours more is very little to pay for books instead of movies. Just my advice...
Ender's Game is about the cruelty of humanity, (specifically children on children). Make no mistake, this is no children's movie, Ender is a murderer. Taking that out of the movie will be changing the whole nature of the story, making it less than what it is. What Hollywood studio would have the balls to show one 7yr old murdering another? Unfortunately none of them, and thus the whole story is ruined. I generally am not a big fan of violence in movies (can't stand the bang-bang shoot 'em ups anymore), but in this case the violence is necessary; intregal to the story. Mr. Card puts up an excellent case against violence by showing just how brutal real violence can be. What a shame the full extent of it won't be preserved for the big screen.
Back in September, my wife and I attended a book signing for Orson Scott Card in Virginia, and I took copious notes on my Pilot, but never posted them. He spent about an hour talking about the movie, his books, etc.
Rather than trying to re-write my notes, I'm just going to paste them in here and do some quick abbrev expansions, etc.. Hopefully, they'll still make sense. :-)
Ender's Game Movie
Some other stuff
That's about all I have...if you ever get a chance to see him, I recommend it highly -- he was a funny, intelligent, engaging speaker and answered all questions fully (and sometimes got on a soapbox, but he put pretty clear disclaimers around those self-described diatribes...)
-david.