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ROTC-Like Program for Nerds
ThatGuyAZ writes "President Clinton announced this morning that he's proposing to put $91 Million into supporting the college educations of computer science students.
I'm wondering how much this might be in response to criticism that too many foreigners were in sensitive positions during the Y2K bug-fix stage. But that's just my guess..."
At the federal (presidential?) level, 91 million dollars is pretty trivial.
TomG
Now I may be able to get a scholarship to pay for school 6 years ago?
Not only does Ziff Davis use 'hacker' incorrectly (expected), President Clinton use 'hack' incorrectly (thought he might know better). This fucking pisses me off. *ahem* *sigh*
TomG
in the article. While it is understandable that security checks should be made for those working on sensitive systems the article seems to hinting that Chinese citizens are the prime target - it also quotes a specific number for their category. I hope this isn't going to turn into embarrassing hysteria similar to the supposed nuclear secrets leak where people get targetted unreasonably and are not allowed due process
I suppose somewhere, people are thinking along the lines of a cyberspace force, similar to our other defense services (army, navy, air force, ...) who's job it would be to defend and fight in cyberspace when called on. Manning, training, equipping such a force could easily go way past $91M ...
For someone who was considering working for the gov't anyway, this is great!
The federal government placed those individuals there intentionally. They're cheaper to employ, and they (the FAA) had a budget to meet.
Back ontopic...
The only thing I can see coming out of this 'grant' is more MCSE's, BS's, and AS's without a clue. All the marginally intelligent CS/IT/IS hopefuls are near-automatically guaranteed admission to college or employment on their merit alone; Do we really need to hand out CS scholarships to people that would not normally pursue it if not for the extra $?
.sig: Now legally binding!
I'm not sure if this really has anything to do with Y2K, or if it's just general lip service PR by our beloved (sarcasm) president.
I think maybe the reason we "hired out" much of the Y2K work, is simply because there's a lot of technical people that didn't WANT to work on Y2K issues. We are already doing things that are probably a lot more fun. Just my personal opinion, though.
--- "So THAT's what an invisible barrier looks like!" - Time Bandits
This is just for people working on computer security issues. And after you graduate, you have to go work for the government, just like joining the army after ROTC.
Mike
The government might have problems selecting students for this. First, they need the best of the best. Alot of times, you could not find these people until after a year of college, and when students realize that they have excellent computer science skills, they will want to go to the private industry where they can make more money and pay off loans they took out rather than working for less at a government job. Yes, there will be people that want to work with the government, but I guess I just feel that if I have skills that can give me a comfortable salary and I can live without worry, I would take it.
Don't programs like this already exist? I know some kids whose college education is getting paid for by the NSA and other people who were recruited for the same thing by the CIA, the students are all either cs or ee
The problem is in education, and education starts early.
These same funds would be better spent on the younger grades. If this spending was maintained for 20 years, The entire nation would be more educated on CS (and also well stocked with secutiry experts) and how use and apply what they've learned.
_________________________
I cant help but wonder is this money going to be used to create a new Three letter name agency or is it recuitment money for the Three letter agencies (CIA NSA )and BTW what is their stake in electronic warfare you think these people would be leading the way in this feild ?
Point 1: Sorry, you're tenth. neener neener.
Point 2: By having FIRST POST as your subject, and not posting anonymously, you'll probably lose karma. Neener Neener.
Point 3: For being a smartass, I probably will too. Neener, neener.
--- "So THAT's what an invisible barrier looks like!" - Time Bandits
91 mil in scholarships in exchange for future public service.
Ok, wouldn't it be simpler to take that 91 million and use it to hire US citizens away from the private sector?
Oh wait, that would provide instant results instead of dissappointing results during the next guy's term.
--Shoeboy
Well, from what I gather, we aren't suffering from people who know security. We are suffering from managers and leaders who won't do anything to fix known holes in security.
This wouldn't be a bad idea, but coming from President Clipper Chip, it is a little ominous. If he's so intent on improving education, why doesn't he do something where we really need it-- at elementary and high schools. Hard to major in CS when you can't read or do simple math. He keeps caving in to the teachers unions instead of doing something productive.
Hey, what a marvellous career path for a computer science major - the US. Army!
It has all the qualities that suit a hackor best:
*rigid command hierarchy
*formalized attire
*shitty pay
*no respect from the public
*9-5 workday
*guns! (thrown in for ESR, I'm guessing - that clever clinton!)
And on top of all this, you get to work against your ideals by squashing online insurgency! Wonderful! Where can I sign up?
-konstant
Yes! We are all individuals! I'm not!
-konstant
Yes! We are all individuals! I'm not!
the first thing that sprung to my mind before i read the article was an image of a shaved headed teenager in a uniform sitting in trembling attention at a terminal while being yelled at by a smokey the bear hat wearing mean guy about how he 'just kill -9'd his buddy' by not recompiling a kernel correctly.
I can't see a problem giving some of the brightest young people in society discounted or free college educations. I wish I had such an opportunity at the University of Maryland. However, the government service part may simply not be that helpful. The way inwhich many Computer Science students think, from my experience anyway (Your mileage may vary) is that they really don't trust the Government and would like to avoid coming to their notice, much less work for them. Also Government salarys, for the most part, are horrid. Not all are that bad, but some of the job postings I saw, I almost died of laughter. "Where are they going to get someone with that skill set to take that large a pay cut?" Well, I suppose we can fill those possitions with fresh college grads. However, you run into the problem where these students are green. Mostly, there is no real world experience, and their work ethic is sometimes questionable. (Heh, mine has been questioned. :)
In short I like the money for school, but if the government wants talent in their ranks, pump up those salary numbers. The best are worth more than $30,000 a year... Also, the government should stop scaring our youth. I don't know how they do it, but they do..
Mike
If this happens will the supply of geeks surpas the demand? Will i no longer get paied as much as I do?
Man that sucks, I think I may have to register to vote and call someone.
91 million does not seem like allotfor a govornment program, but consider: Even if half of that goes to administrative overhead (unlikely) there is still enough money to give about 400 people a free ride to ivy league colleges or places like Berkly and Caltech.
Offten, these kinds of programs only pay for thinks like books and tuition, not room and board. so the actual number of people who can be funded is higher, probably arround 600+. And since not everyone is going to places that cost 30K a year. Some may be going to good public CS schools like U of MD or IL, the actual number of students benifiting from the money would be clooser to a thousand.
a pretty good number
-Mateorabi
"You saved 1968." - Ms. Valerie Pringle to the crew of Apollo 8
The comments field was empty, so I thought I was first... My karma has always been 0, because I don't use my account very often.
Well, I hope for you that you don't have too much damage either...
It's all how you look at it:
'Have to work for the govornment' vs.
'Guaranteed a job for ~5 years after you graduate'
not to mention job experience that emplyoers will love after your'e done.
"You saved 1968." - Ms. Valerie Pringle to the crew of Apollo 8
Clinton also announced a related program to counter-balance this unprecedented proposal: "You see, Computer nerds are predominantly male, in order to offer a program equally rewarding for women I will be setting up the White House Intern Scholarship Program. I will be hand-picking the candidates and I hope to have the program up and 'operational' before my term ends next year...hehehe...I mean, uh, ignore that last part! Hillary!!! I'm doin' it again!"
// literacy
:) )
More funding to computer literacy can do potential good.
// "paranoia"
I remember when the Feds were really obsessed with the "crackers" (literally pirate groups that crack copy protection of software and warez them out) and did these huge and invasive crackdowns that led to the Steve Jackson raiding controversy.
And that small children (I was one of them) were offered cash per person that they would squeal on who is such a cracker. (FYI, I didn't turn anyone in.
Not that this is (or is it?) Clinton's idea.
I don't want to see a "Big Brother" state of teenage computer coders being financially encouraged to turn in and monitor their fellow coders (most of them innocent).
Much of coding is learning from each other and sharing information and understanding. This involves a lot of trust and friendship.
I would hate to see government actions accidentally harming this trust, or the programming community.
P.S. It is not if you are legal what are you afraid of? Government officials/FBI sometimes appear to be ignorant of technology issues, and paranoid of things they don't understand, and many innocent (but suspicious appearing) young children can be harmed by this.
Corrinne Yu
3D Game Engine Programmer
Back when President Clinton was campaigning for his second term in office, he spent a lot of time "trying to reach" young people. When asked during an interview how appealing to adolescents and teens will help him win an election, he said "Because I don't want this to be the first generation in American history to do worse than their parents."
I think this fund is motivated by his views on youth in America - wanting to encourage the next generation to get involved in a very lucrative field, and not some conspiracy theory. Just my 2 cents.
I don't hesitate at all to say that many, possibly bordering on most, computer science graduates from prominent Universities could benefit from a few years at DeVry to learn actual skills complimenting their theoretical skills memorized from 4 years of generally shoddy teaching and textbooks with concepts and methods that were old 5 years ago... This isn't a knock on students/teachers in general, just a personal observation based on the type of work I had to do on class projects, and the number of times us top students had to cover for less-motivated/less-skilled students in our groups, who were in the majority.
So, let Clinton spend his $91M. Just playing the odds, the vast majority of takers he'll get will be people qualified to work Help Desk, write script widgies, or just generally be in significant need of more training before they'll be useful. The top students who know they can make more money in the private sector, can get more money in scholarships anyhow, and cringe at the thought of working for the Fed, probably won't be any more likely to take this than they would the already existing ROTC money that promises the same type of work after college in the military.
Notice: Your mouse has been moved. Windows will now restart so this change can take effect.
Maybe that way, disgusting incidents like Rob Malda rallying people to try to rip off MSN will be less prevalent in the future. Then again, maybe we should just have a culture where nobody trusts anybody else. Either way.
Cheers,
ZicoKnows@hotmail.com
I have seen too much brutal competition among the CS crowd. Imagine starting now and graduating in a recession. It might be better to diversify your talents to include a stronger foundation if that field dries up. Get an electrical engineering degree. You will have many more opportunities, especially if the CS field is saturated when you need a job the most.
Start with building blocks in electronics with a BSEE, where you will build your computer, first in simple sections from latches and logic gates, to real wire wrapped monsters, complete with 8 bit bus and NTSC video. Write the software in assembly and make a crude interface to control simple devices like stepper motors making something such as an electronic bartender.
I felt it was more fun starting from scratch with a new computer and having the intimate knowledge how to make it tick.
I believe the submitter is giving Clinton too much credit. I find it very hard to believe that a proposal and plan could be created, written up, and presented in such a short time after the Y2K criticism. After all, don't forget, this is the government we're talking about, and everyone knows how slow it can be.
I am thinking back to my first-year computer science classes. There were 180 first-years, bright-eyed and anxious to tackle programming and design and all that associated stuff.
60% dropped out after the first semester.
There were 15 people graduated from the department (including me).
This was not a particularly hard program (there wasn't a lot of math, which frightens some people off). It's just that most people can't hack the program (pun intended).
Computer science was one of the smallest departments too. Why? Well, we may be revered by business, who pay us good salaries to do relatively little work (compared to, say, a bricklayer) because we are in such demand. But do you know what the average high school student's impression (especially a girl) of a computer programmer/engineer/etc. is? Nerd. Dweeb. Egghead. They don't want to be perceived as such, so they pursue other fields that don't have that stigma attached to them. They can take their philosophy, psychology, etc. courses and earn the degrees that will allow them to flip my burgers for the rest of their lives.
Enrollment is on the rise, but people are just beginning to overlook the usual social stigma of being a computer programmer and see that it is not like that and that they can make a lot of money doing it. It's sad--there are student in the program not for the love of doing it, but for the eventual cash.
And that, my friends, is why we will always have a job, even in the toughest recession. Watch the psychology students starve, 600 fighting for one sales position at J.C. Penney's, while we will have our pick of the jobs.
Heh heh... I'm a CS major myself and I hate CS geeks too!
Buncha dumb question answerers, twinky in da beard wearers, stinky couches!
---Anvilak
In short, is Clinton wittingly or unwittingly loading people into a channel that Microsoft has surreptitiously bought outright? Maybe it would be better if computer education got _less_ money so people would be forced to think about theory and write their own stuff instead of taking how-to courses on commercial products. The world doesn't start and end with programmers- huge percentages of the computer courses of the world are really "Using Microsoft Works" and the like. Do we want that to become federally subsidized?
he will propose on Feb. 7, will request $91 million from Congress for computer security as part of an overall $2 billion budget "to meet our security challenges."
91 million? This seems like an awful lot of money for a program like this. Not that it isn't important, but for a "start up" it sure seems like much of this will be dedicated to administrative overhead and not to paying the "consultants"
"I will continue to work equally hard to uphold the privacy rights of the American people as well as the proprietary rights of American businesses," he said.
His previous decisions and policy on privacy rights blows chucks, I hope whatever he introduces for business proprietary, and intellectual property rights is solid. Now there is way too much confusion, law suits, etc.
The scholarship program would be modeled after the military ROTC program, aides said. College students would receive education subsidies to develop computer-security skills if they agree to work for the government after graduation.
Lets see here. If I were a computer science major or some flavor of, and was looking for opportunities upon leaving school, what would I do?
1. Take a GS 4 job with uncle Sam and make 30K on the high end, or
2. Take a job in the private sector making substantially more than 30K and enjoy the flexibility that comes with it.
More race stuff in one place,
than any one place on the net.
And for what it's worth, I agree with the AC that started this... CS people do have a nasty habit of not being well rounded at all. It's sad to know that so many people don't recognize that big glowing ball in the sky anymore...
--
--
Just lurking, thanks!
See the following link from the President's web site containing the full executive summary of the plan. Page 28 specifically deals with the scholarship plans.
There is also mention of setting up "meaningful" internship programs for college and promising high school students (I noticed a comment somewhere about the need to start the process earlier in a childs academic career). Please remember that this is a proposal, no details have been made public (i.e. eligible schools, amounts of scholarship, years of service required, etc.). I think this is an admiriable idea, and we should support efforts like these. If you have strong feelings regarding the implementation of this plan, WRITE YOUR ELECTED REPRESENTATIVES!!!!!
For those of you outside the United States, if you think this plan would help out technology in your country, WRITE YOUR REPRESENTATIVES. For those of you living where your views will not be heard by the powers that be, MOVE/SEEK ASYLUM!!!!
-la
Just another fine Clintoon policy ...
It's Linux, damnit! Pay no attention to renaming attempts by self-aggrandizing blowhards.
The government is finally realizing the importance of computer security. It is the infrastructure of the US now and needs protection. In response to this, they're going to recruit, and more than likely also train CS students on the field of information security.
Hey, if you're already in school, then stop complaining, it wasn't meant for you. For those who wouldn't get to college otherwise, spending 3 years in a government job getting 1/2 of what you wouldn't have had at all otherwise sounds damn good.
--
How do you keep an idiot in suspense?
Tell him the next version of Windows will be faster, more reliable, and easier to use!
Care about electronic freedom? Consider donating to the EFF!
Its highly unlikely the field will dry up (at least not anywhere in the near future or moderate future). The number of students attempting CS degrees is not increasing anywhere near as fast as the demand for their skills is even though the starting salaries is grosely larger than what some other majors could get.
All editorial writers ever do is come down from the hill after the battle is over and shoot the wounded.
Let the free market decide what is profitable to study.
Thanks Adams
Yes, the monitary incentive will cause some people to go into CS/IT/IS who are not very good at it.
But given all the people who will apply to this program, I seriously doubt that those people will get into the programs. You are more likely to get a group of people who are very intelegent and know what they are doing, who either can't afford the tuition, or like the idea of having the federal govornment pay for their education. These are the people who will most likely be selected. And with limited positions, the govornment can be choosy.
Also, you may be getting paid ~30K extra a year for the few years that someone else is working for the govt', but you are also paying of ~30K a year for a few years in loans (or equivalent, spread out over more years,) unless your parents were wealthy or you went to a chaper school.
"You saved 1968." - Ms. Valerie Pringle to the crew of Apollo 8
you think $91 million is a lot of money? think about it this way. say 500 college frosh's per state sign up for comp sci every year (yeah, ca, pa, and va, will be more but will balance out others). 500 * 50 = 25,000 students divide $91,000,000 by 25,000 students. the result is $3,640 per student!! for four years!! if the whole scholarship is granted for the first year (a typical clinton-esque plan), and 60% drop out (previous post stat), is the gov't going to force repayment? no. there's no way they could pull that off because SCHOLARSHIPS ARE NOT LOANS!!! 60% of 25,000 = 15,000 ex-compsci students. the gov't just lost $54,600,000. yeah, really good plan there, slick willie.
This isn't a new idea. Other government organizations provide scholarships for bright students in exchange for their skills after graduation (strong math majors with a knack for crypto are prime candidates for the NSA).
Unfortunately, this is just too little too late. The numbers show that students are just not attracted to technical degrees even though they are well aware of the demand and the high salaries.
I think this money could be better spent educating children about technology and letting them know that it's "okay" to be a geek.
This is reminding me too much of the federal programmers in Snow Crash -- the coding sweatshops with ridiculous beaurocracy, etc. Is there any way for the Feds to create a working environment I wouldn't hate? Barring that, for how long would I agree to work for them? (maybe a guess based on ROTC -- does anyone know?)
I think I'd rather be tens of thousands in the hole when i get out of college than be committed to a job that might suck.
--Jack
Also, the government should stop scaring our youth. I don't know how they do it, but they do..
They scare most of the youth by imprisoning them for 12 years in brain-washing camps run by the government. The people they are searching for through this grant program are the ones most likely to highly resent their incarceration in these jails; thus joining the government that shafted them holds little appeal.
I visited my former school to find that the A,B,C,D,F grading system had been replaced by S and N ("Satisfactory" and "Needs Improvement"). Hmmmm. No grade of "fail"! Don't kids get FAILED for slacking off and not learning anymore and forced to repeat the semester or go to summer school? "Oh we can't do that. That would be psychologically damaging and traumatic to the child." So everyone passes until they're graduated and then find they can't get a job that needs a brain despite "earning" their diploma. I guess this is supposed to be psychologically "healthy"? Schools need to be more than 8-3 daycare. They need to TEACH or be shut down and replaced with facilities that do teach. Kids that can't pass the standardized tests need to be held back. Better to delay a kid a year or two than to promote him blindly through prepetual incompetence. If he failed 6th grade, how will he do better in 7th? and 8th? etc.? He'll be forever behind and forever lost, until he's pushed out the school door an unskilled and hapless individual.
"im tired of seeing non white, non americans in high paying tech positions.
... why don't you shut the hell up?
... flamebait.
its high time we get all these indian and camel jockey consultants out of our companies and back to 7-11 where they belong.
put white american children first in the new millenium.
Heil, frickin' Nazi.
Here's a thought
And while I'm at it, this goes out to the moderators:
Why don't you moderators RTFM on moderating, and moderate crap, like what this guy posted, to what it should be
Yep, that's right, it's flamebait guys and gals. It's a bad comment that does not add anything to the discussion. (Much like this post too. So, in all fairness, I expect both this post, and the one to which it refers, to be moderated down accordingly.)
unfinished (thank god!) future by many individuals.
The message on the other side of this sig is false.
What's a "saudering iron"??
Could you have meant a soldering iron?
Only minor flames, made only because it's Friday afternoon. If you care to learn more check out The Basic Soldering & Desoldering Guide .
I don't think I've ever seen a "neener" density that high.
I'd tip my hat, but I don't own one.
I'm a CpE major, and this is exactly the reason. I've seen way to many "computer people" who can't use a saudering iron, let alone understand gate logic. If one is going to go into a geek field, ya might as well LEARN the stuff, rather than just how to use it.
I totally disagree with that. I've seen the exact opposite.
There are way too many engineers out there who don't understand proper coding skills (because all they learned in school was Fortran) well enough to be able to create a bug-free system. The demand for programmers is huge, and these people are getting these jobs, because they have some programming experience, when all they really know how to do is sauder a board together.
Now this is not universal. Some of the brightest guys I know are EE geeks. But the vast majority of people with an EE degree don't want to code, and yet that's the majority of the jobs out there for EE's. If you want to code, go CS as you'll learn a lot more theory, which is worth it in the long run. The EE stuff you may need to know is not hard to pick up, whereas it can be hard to pick up coding when all you know is fortran.
Computer Engineering is a good idea, but poorly implemented at a lot of schools. It's basically a cross between EE and CS, but not getting into any depth on either one. If you're undecided between the two, then it may be worth looking at. But the CpE's I know (admittedly very few) couldn't program their way out of a paper bag. One guy I know who graduated with a 3.5+ average in CpE (he had a 1.5- overall) is also one of the stupidest people I have ever met in my entire life. He would be one of those people who couldn't understand which way to plug in the power cord.
CS people do have a nasty habit of not being well rounded at all.
I admit this is true to a certain extent, at least upon graduation. But you could say this about most majors, IMNSHO. The thing that provides a person well-roundedness is job experience.
Well, that's just my take on the subject..
---
- Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day, but set him on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life.
This is just another PR stunt. The NSA's been running programs like this for years, you just have to know to ask for them. They pay for college, you work for them summers and at least 6 years after you graduate.
This
I agree as well... coming from a college where the CS students had to take just as many CpE courses as CS courses, I was shocked to get out into the business world and find people with MIS degrees who had never even looked inside a computer!
As a CS professional (well, okay, I fake it mostly these days) who tries to stay "well rounded", I have to compete against the people for whom their only reason to exist is to program. That's all they ever do. They spend almost every waking moment computing, usually for the company. As someone who sees the glowing ball in the sky once in a while, I can't compete with that -- because companies just LOVE those stunted half-people willing to slave their lives away for the executive's profit.
I'd leave the whole industry in disgust, but god(s) help me, I enjoy programming. I guess I'll try to stay "well rounded"... it'll serve me well when I turn 40, get fired for daring to be old, and have to flip burgers alongside the liberal arts majors. *sigh*
[Know of any good graduate programs?]
I admit this is a bit off topic but...
I have just completed my undergraduate degree in something other than CS (social psychology and architecture). Like many of my geek friends I got tired of paying for a CS education that was either taught by a really old guy or an MS prostitue. Had I intended to get a CS degree I wouldn't have chosen the college I attended but who knows what they are doing when they are 18 anyway? Though I gleaned alot of valuable information from my minor in CS (data structures and OO come to mind) I am having problems locating a good masters program that does not require an undergrad degree in CS. I am willing to make up a few classes to bring me up to speed, I just don't want to go to college for another 5 years (there's too much money out here in the 'real world'). State schools are prefered...
Thanks,
DS
"Please do not reply if you're an evil alien! Thanks"
Wouldn't it be funny if this were only for gay hackers? It would help a minority, and stick it to the fascists in the military at the same time. But I'll bet Congress would put a writer on it so only straight kids are allowed to hack for their cuntry. :-)
Yes, it will add a liability cost to every OS purchase. OS vendors would need liability reserves and reinsurance. So? That's normal practice in other industries. The cost might be less than people spend on anti-virus programs.
It's time for computing to grow up. This is a necessary step, and a normal one in the progress of an industry. Railroads were forced to accept liability for their actions early in this century; auto companies were forced into it in the 1960s and 1970s. Computing is now pervasive enough it's time for computing to accept its responsibilities.
I have some concrete proposals circulating for peer review in this area, and I'll have more to say about that in future.
Ooooh! I know what the glowing ball in the sky is! It's the *DAYSTAR*!!
But then, I'm CSE, not CS, so I might be expected to know.
It is worth reflecting on the fact that an Internet military power can be gained for extremely small amounts of money by countries that would otherwise not be able to attack/disrupt the more conventional military powers.
So now we have:
- The US military talking about it in a warfare sense [http://www.wired.com/news/p olitics/0,1283,33443,00.html]
- The US President talking about it a civil corps sense.
- And the NSA continuing to hoard its mindshare, feeds, and databases, in the spy sense.
Of course we also have the "Techies Day" [http://www.techiesday.com/ 600_press/620_clips/index.html] stuff going on in parallel with Gore touting the need to US techies and pointing out the extreme techie shortage.My feeling is that all of this is good. It is better than just the news itself. It is very good that the US government has the foresight (gasp) in addressing these current and future problems.
Too much of the native talent are bumpusses with poor communication skills and not tact whatsoever.
Go back to your Y2K bunker, rube. The black helicopters might spot you.
Even as a joke. Prostitution is equally as rewarding to women as IT is to men? Or, hell, as IT is to anyone? No wonder women don't want to work in that environment.
This is an annoying policy which is designed to make Clinton LOOK like he's doing something, but which will a) not actually fix the problems and b) have bad side effects.
Firstly, you can bet that the majority of that 91 million is NOT going into scholarships. The 91 million pays for the entire set of programs being set up, the scholarships are just being trotted out as the poster boy.
Secondly, how exactly is it good to be doling out money for scholarships? Yes, it's nice to be giving bright-eyed young students money for college, but remember that the money that's being given away was collected from the other bright-eyed young students who are having to work their way through school. There is no such thing as a free lunch.
Thirdly, the new Clinton program includes the establishment of a new federal beaurocracy that, as usual, will be accountable to NOONE. Like, say, OSHA, or the EPA, agencies who are not directly accountable to the voting public but whose decisions carry the force of law. This is a Bad Thing.
Lastly, it doesn't even address the major problem of technical education in the US, which is that the majority of students that enroll in technical majors get weeded out DELIBERATELY by the universities and colleges that are getting paid to teach them. If only 80% of the people who went into those program graduated from them, we'd double the supply of high-tech workers and researchers immediately! It infuriates me that the attitude (at Penn State, at least) is that "oh, well, 60% will drop out or become business majors, nothing we can do." That should be a mark of failure for the university! An airline which only delivered 40% of its passengers to the destination they desired would be out of business damn fast, let me tell you.
What would I do make the situation better? I'd make the funding given out to colleges and universities dependent on the percentage of people who graduate from the majors of their choice (ignoring voluntary changes of major, and maybe not even then if the voluntary changes aren't really voluntary). Make the institutions of learning have to KEEP their students to earn their suppers!
Polemically yours,
Jon Acheson
All opinions expressed herein are my own, and not those of my employers, who are appalled.
There;s a idea that I read about a while ago called the "infocorps" that was in a book a while ago because I used it for my paper for Soph computer science class. I found a copy of it at http://www.taoiw.org/Papers/papers.html and then saw it in the Cyberwar book. But this is a military program and the announcemnt today was for a rotc-civilian type of program. Well, I am 1/2 through my degree so anyhelp is better than no help I guess.
This moron doesn't seem to realize the scope of what was written in the original post.
Specifically the reference to only white american children.
This statement just screams out "nazi" to me, and so it's either that the moron above is a nazi-wannabe as well, or he's the person who submitted the original post.
What the hell is this?
Money is not what is preventing people from going into computer science. yes, there may be a few people out there who would like to go to college for CSC but can't afford it... those people already have jobs in the field most likely. Degrees are kinda irrelevant in the computer field. We have certifications and portfolios.
Go to any college and you'll probably see what I see at my univserity. 45 freshmen declare computer science as a probable major. 1 year later, there are 4 left. Why? It takes passion. Computers are an extremely abstract and advanced invention and its takes almost monastic devotion to master them. I doubt if computers and computer programming will become something you can just go into "for the money" for a long time... know people who have tried, they just can't spend 90 hours debugging a program when their other classes only have 1 hour of regurgitation work a week.
In computer classes, you gotta make things and you gotta make them work. In every other class, you just have to memorize things or make very simple essays. It all goes back to the passion.
E.
"payed" can't be nearly as bad in code as a comment that says "steel sleeping"! (Read STILL sleeping ...)
That's not necessarily true. None of the schools I've attended (or applied to) actually teach any Microsoft as part of the CS curriculum. The departments did have "MS Word for Meatheads" classes, but they were introductory level, and don't count as CS credits for the CS programs.
All the upperclass CS classes are taught on Unix machines, with a few lower ones taught on PC's with the Borland (Inprise?) family of compilers, because they are cheap and the hardware is already in all of the IT labs.
It's my impression that Clinton is only funding actual CS students, not those taking word processing and spreadsheet courses.
Instead of spending billions, why not spend the money on more reliable systems.
As for the training, we already provide it. So just send some of your geekettes to Britain to train.
I love stacking my barbecues in the shed at the end of summer - you can't beat a bit of grill on grill action.
You really have to LIKE CS to be good at it, and be good whne you graduate. Those who are just in it for the money are easy to spot, both by us, and hopefully, by companies.
I was talking about this with one of my undergraduate professors. He said that CS class sizes have grown a lot over the past decade. With a larger population of CS students, you would expect more good students, but he saw that the number of really good CS students was constant.
cpeterso
Many People are critisizing the way that the government is handling the appropriations of funds to help out computer science students. Well, if there are better ways to do this than have the government teach us, then why don't people in the industry setup their own classes for the subject. I mean, we see MS and other such companies that go around the country and setup seminars that are a few days in each city that help to show new technology and teach what is already out there.
What the younger generations need is some sort of push by the people who are actually doing the coding out there now. I'm sure a lot of the youth of this country, if given the proper direction, would become much more valuable to our country and keep us ahead of the status quo. So, all you guys (and gals) out there programming at places like Red Hat, MS, id, Electronic Arts, etc...let's band together to show kids what coding is really all about! Thanks.
"I am Jack's complete lack of suprise." -Fight Club
Actually, when it was originally used back in the 60's (at least in the computer areana) it meant a wizardly computer geek who performed amazing feats of code in PDP-10 assembler, Lisp, or Multics PL/I.
It seems that your youthful history begins only after the honered term was already hijacked.
Yeah. I went to a school that taught CS on Macs.
I still can't figure out why.
OK, this could either turn into a Retief-style CDT experiment or it could be the GI Bill of the 21st Century. I'm hoping for the latter, but since politicians are setting it up, betting on the former.
I regret that I have but one rev to give to my country.
Will in Seattle
CNN had a report on a similar program that is run by the NSA.
I wonder though if it will have the result that Clinton hopes it will have. First there is a lag of at least 5 years before these kids have a Masters degree. (correct me if I am wrong, the American uni-system is sometimes a bit confusing) That doesn't make them experts on security yet. 6 or 7 years is a long time in Computer Science. Can he wait that long? Maybe the money should be invested in solutions on a shorter term. (Hire @stake)
Second: It is a fact that the Beta sciences are not as popular as the Alpha and Gamma sciences. I do not expect a sudden dramatic shift in the amount of people going for CS as a result of this.
Third: Though governments generally give you cool stuff to play with and are often willing to spent money on hardware, the pay usually sucks. So does the overall image of the government. This scheme doesn't give me the idea that this is going to change, therefore not many people in my opinion will go for it. It might just be better to invest in better wages.
Fourth (and then I will stop to rant): Is the threat really *that* big? Remember the Janes article on Cyberwarfare? I am not saying that security is not important, but I am wondering if the dangers are as high as some people try and make us belief
Use Adsense for Charity
I dunt undastand what ya meen by errors.
;)
my spilling and the grammar are realy best.
I like the microsoft.
Jello is good.
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Sounds like a class I took at a big university, computer architecture and assembly language programming. There were 275 students at the beginning of the semester in this huge auditorium size lecture hall of a classroom. At the end of the semester only 55 finished the class. Of those 55, only 5 made "A" grades. Of those 5, only 2 were american/caucasian, not asian or middle-eastern males: a dumb blonde chick who was sleeping with the professor, and myself a white geek male. No I did not sleep with the prof, I had to earn my A the old fashioned way. Funny thing was the prof was fired from the previous university he taught at for exchanging sexual favors for grades, and at this current university, the administration knew of these incidents but hired him anyway just because PhD's in computer science who will work for a low university salary are so scarce.
I this move really going to give us a body of expert computer scientists to draw upon, or simply bolster the mass of dba's and mediocre MCSE's? In my experience the best computer people have been those driven by curiosity and a love of learning. I did my BA and most of a PhD in Philosophy, I work with two former music majors and a writer. While somewhat usefule, I think throwing money at the supposed problem will produce limited results. I think it's laudable for Clinton's administration to put more money into education, though I personally would like to see it across the board, not just computer science.
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I'll bet / with my Net / I can get / those things yet.
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I'll bet / with my Net / I can get / those things yet.
--Dr. Seuss
Enrollment is on the rise, but people are just beginning to overlook the usual social stigma of being a computer programmer and see that it is not like that and that they can make a lot of money doing it.
I agree. The generation that is in elementry school and middle school is growing up SURROUNDED by computers. The ridicule in that generation will be directed towards those who don't know how to turn on a computer rather than the computer programmers.
However, I do NOT beleive that Computer Scientists/Programmers will have the job security and availability that they enjoy now. I'm a sophomore at Berkeley, and when I get my EECS degree, companies will probably be falling over themselves to employ me. But the generation younger than me will have a much higher percentage of people interested in computers as a career, and I beleive the job market will become more competative 15 years from now when more students get EE/CS degrees or the equivalent from places like devry.
I think the most valuable skill to have for the next 50 years will be the ability to quickly learn new technology. Those who don't have the ability to learn quickly will run into a lot of trouble in the next couple decades.
This same system already works all of the time.
A medical student that is about to graduate may recieve an offer from some little hick town. This town can't get any doctors to move their and their populace is in poor health because of it. The town would offer the student re-imbursment for his/her loans in exchange they work as the towen doctor for X # of years.
This also is done with teachers, and who knows what other professions.
Devil Ducky
MY peers would get out of jury duty.
Alright, so I'm getting ready to go to college, and while doing a fastweb search for scholarships, I noticed that the NSA was offering an undergraduate training program for students planning on majoring in computer science, language, or mathematics. I hate the NSA as much as just about any other slashdotter, and so I probably won't be applying myself, but I thought it was still pretty interesting.
Check out the info page at http://www.nsa.gov:8080/programs/emp loy/utp.html
Pretty creepy stuff...
"This program will create a new generation of computer security specialists who will work to defend our nation's computers" from those monopolistic bastards at Microsoft!!! Of course, Bill Clinton can make anything sound good, but you have to wonder about the government bribing students to come work for them... like giving away a browser with the operating system in a weird twisted way.
hehe... just something to think about.
<---[singularity sig]
This is mind-boggling, and a waste of tax-payer money.
First, there was section 1706 of the 1986 Tax Act, where Tip O'Neil was bribed to slip this in during a late-night session. This act has forced many formerly independent contractors into W-4 or W-2 status. Read: More profits for the agencies, less for the contractors. And hence, less motivation to go into C.S..
Then, at further financial urging of the Big Agencies, George Bush signed off on a law that restricts the overtime pay of Software Contractors.
Most other professionals get time-and-a-half for overtime pay. But it is against Federal Law for software contractors to do so!!!!! Then, during the mid-90's, the Government let in hoards of foreigners, to drive down the rates of both Software employees and contractors alike. Indeed, as Sun Microsystems was lying (testifying) to Congress about not being able to find qualified people, SunSoft was laying-off half of their contractors, and replacing them with cheaper H1-B workers.
So now the Feds are whining about not having enough CS people, and are wondering why. Even worse, they're wasting a bunch of tax money trying to improve things. There's a cheaper solution.
Bring rational business back to the market, and let the market take care of itself.
when they pay you they control you
You blow
dead goats.
Actually..it goes back farther than that. For centuries golfers have been referring to themselves as *hackers*.
It's time for Golfers to stand up take vehemently protest this disgusting misue of their moniker. I for one am appalled by the whole thing!
If you live through the enlistment military service makes ya a better person.
Maybe this is a form of AIT, as all service branches are getting more technical (even the devil dogs are getting keyboard time).
And the military provides useful job training.
Semper fi, do or die!
I sometimes think about attacking the security problem by creating red teams that deliberately, systematically damage sites with bad security. Advantages: we get a better market for security products. A particular vulnerability can be exposed gradually over time, instead of exploited everywhere at once by a real adversary. Disadvantages: it's a nutty idea.
I not trying to belittle college, but most college CS programs are woefully inadequete for the current technology.
The only thing colleges can teach that is applicable to the work place is general copmuting topics and techniques, linked lists, and some of the most technologies like C\C++, UNIX, and Perl.
This industry is more chaotic than others. I think that more attention needs to paid to early computer education, on the grade-school level. People need to learn general copmuter theory in gradeschool not college.
A standard Bachelor's degree takes around 4 years, I am sure that slashdot readers recognize the changes that can occur in time period. Personally I am a college dropout, but when I go back to finish I am not going to major in something other than CS. (probably architecture)....
Most computer systems and applicable uses for computer stem from existing integration with other technologies, like financial systems, where a degree has more weight. Computer programming requires more than a degree, it requires intelligence, innovation, dedication, and hubris/pride in your work.
Some of the best programmers/developers I know dont have degrees in CS.
It seems that alot of people who get CS degrees fo it for the money, and not for the vision. For them its a career path so they can buy there new luxury SUVs, and get there screaming brats cell phones, and gap clothes.
The marketplace is changing, employees no longer care about employees as much, cradle to grave is a joke. The new workplace is dynamic and fast paced, and the people that will excell in it are people you adapt to change, IMHO opinion college is to rooted in traditional work values to teach that.
I will end this rant now. Dont get me wrong college is great, and it is a *neccesity*, but in the computer industry CS arent as relevant.humbly end rant
Some students aren't fit for a high tech education and they should be weeded out of the program.
I agree completely. I'm graduating in less than 4 months, and prospective employers will respect my degree because they know I had to work hard for it. I have seen fellow students treating college like high school with bigger drinking parties, and being complete jerks in class because they had no dedication. They usually change majors or transfer to community colleges after the first year when they get their 1.7 GPA and lose their scholarships. Of course, that doesn't take care of the ones whose parents can afford to cover their tuition and new car payments indefinitely while they score 10 percent on final exams and retake classes 3-4 times.
10Brett-T
Oh, bother.
As sexy and important as systems are to develop, the money has always been in applications. There is far more money in bean counting, scheduling airplanes, tracking customers, etc. than building new and custom platforms. To do this you don't have to know a latch from a gate, just a programing language and few architecture fundamentals (disk slow, memory better; random access slow, sequential access better; etc.)
For this reason I've never understood why some people go dual CS/EE for money. The effort to learn two almost disjoint degrees (at my school the overlap in core classes was 2 or 3 classes) isn't worth it on money alone.
Henry Fnord
Well... after I sign on the dotted line and go work for them... I'll obviously know the systems architecture and other vital information.
From here, just leave it up to the imagination of me pulling off the world's biggest hack and selling all the information to another country (can you say China?)
So all in all I think its great... they pay for my college so dad stuffs my pockets, then I go off, get their vital info, and let China stuff my pockets. CASE CLOSED!!
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CoyboyNeal is God
Get up at 5am on an aircraft carrier 3000 miles out in the ocean. Clean toilets. Spend 6 months at a time at sea surrounded by ex convicts and guys who never take a shower. You're better off just getting good grades in your CS program and getting a job which can pay off your loans. There's a direct correlation between GPA and happiness which no ROTC program or anything else can defeat.
Okay--so Mr. Clinton wants to revitalize American technology by providing a new generation of workers with the skills for the new millennium (I didn't hear it, I didn't read it, but I somehow just know he said it). So he's proposing $91 million bucks to achieve this. To paraphrase a certain sports announcer:
Let's go to the adding machine tape!
We can play with this math all we want: we might see this program provide a free four-year ride to a thousand students. Or the program might provide a $1400 stipend--once--to 39,000 Computer Science majors. But anyway you slice it, this doesn't amount to much more than a trivial gesture. If the nation has a "shortage" of 250,000 programmers no stipend, whether 1400 bucks or fourteen thousand bucks, is going to solve that problem.
Above and beyond that--this is dumb. You don't want kids taking up programming "just for the money" anymore than you want to be treated by a doctor who is "just in it for the money." The whole point of the med school hazing process is to weed those guys out. A lot of kids think they'll make bucks programming--they're the ones that disappear. The programmers who last--and who are invaluable--do it because they love the challenge, they love to use their brains, and they love the constant learning process. And more often than not, the best programmers were NOT Computer Science majors. (Truth in hiring time: I generally view a Computer Science major as a negative on a resume. I would vastly rather see a liberal arts major, business, or engineering coupled with a CS minor or a distribution in programming.)
Bottom line: this is a facile political gesture, from a president who has turned the facile political gesture into an art form.
Actually, the word "hacker" has recently been traced back to cave-man drawings and defined as: "the guy with the unfortunate job of processing animal carcasses." If you can't laugh at your language, then nothing is punny.
What if those "indians and camel jokeys" were born in this country. What if they really love this country too! you shit head. They may be decendents of people that came from India or so called camel jockey countries...but that is no reason to question their love this country. They pay taxes like you and me and for most part are very law abiding hard working people. But then again that was not enough for "Hitler" when it came to jews in Germany and Europe. I guess you must be one of those natzi's.
So what is your place in society? Shoveling horse shit in the family farm? (BTW, how is your married life? Is your wife your sister too?)
Am I missing anything?
Pity really, these kids are gonna have no real skill at all.
All this Government funding stuff might sound really great, and it might get more people into CS *BUT* the people who were gonna do CS anyway, the ones that like the course are gonna lose out. They're gonna have to put up with people that just don't get it, people that just want that piece of paper so they can get a job and relax for the rest of their lives.
What am I saying, this is the way it is now!
To err is human,
To really screw up, you need a computer!
computers, religion, and politics don't mix. FYI: I'm an atheist libertarian nerd.
One of the things that bothers me quite a bit about the issue of high tech education in the US is that industry and government like to whine about the insufficiency of US engineering and programmer graduates. This buffaloes congress into passing special measures allowing large numbers of immigrants to fill these postions. Now I have nothing against immigrants - in fact I married one. Best move I ever made.
But it seems to me that by issuing large numbers of visas in this fashion supply and demand is not going to be balanced internally. This external supply will inevatably reduce the wages of such workers, resulting in insufficient incentives to attract top students who go into more lucrative professional tracks such as medicine, law and business schools.
Now we get complaints about the number of non-US citizens working in 'critical' computer areas. Well, DUH!!
If you want to fix this, cut back on those visas!
During the time I was looking for scholarships for college (around 1995), I came across an offer from the NSA. The "scholarship" would pay for you to go to school, but stipulated that you would have to work (paid position) for the NSA during summer vacation and for 5 years after you graduated from college. It was for computer science and electrical engineering majors. I seem to remember that someone I know at school told me that they came across something similar from the CIA as well. I don't know if these scholarships are offered anymore, but they are a good thing if you didn't mind moving to DC during your vacations, and provided you don't mind working for the US gov't.
"In case of emergency, break glass. Scream. Bleed to death."
Hey Roblimo, You are ex-Army aren't you ? Probably explains your obesity, stupidity, and racist opinions. These "foreigners" you mention, are mostly American citizens, therefore, have as much as a right to be in this great country, as you. Look you worthless piece of shit. Go blow CmDRTaco. And don't forget the GNOME-SPIK. Cheers, .0.
1) The mentioned 3 year plan for computer security scientists.
2) The creation of an academic intisute to investigate ways of increasing computer security.
The main objective of this is to ensure that the US never gets caught unawares by computer problems, as so much of the world is dependent on them these days. Specifically, they want to prevent:
1) Computer Terrorist attacks compromising US national security
2) "Unforseen problems" like the Y2K problem.
Obviously, if successful, such a program would lead to significant improvements in global computer security.
I'm sure everyone knows exactly how likely it is that this program will produce very few results, if any. But that tends to happen when governments try to get involved in technology. And at the very least the $90 million should help a number of people through college, so it shouldn't be a total failure.
I don't have a sig.
yesterday it was all over cspan. 2 billion, no 91 million. and the scholarships will be given in the same manner that current ROTC scholarships are distributed. That is... 4 years school= 4 years in service to the federal government. As an IT in the Navy i think that this is great, as long as the government realizes (which they do...at least they said they do) that people are not going to get a 4 yr degree that can earn them 90-120 thou a year and then work for the same s**t wages that i work for (17 thou a year.) It is only an idea at this stage, part of Clintons budget proposal, but i think that the United States needs this, and bad. It has been known for the last few years that several countries have developed offensive groups that have targeted the United States infrastructure, as well as branches of the federal government. I would encourage those who are quick to judge to watch CSPAN and develop an honest, informed opinion instead of a knee-jerk reaction. that that is, is that that is not, is not
great minds often encounter violent opposition from medocre minds. -albert einstein