Slashdot Mirror
Salon on Geeks and Sex
Runna^Muck was the first to write to us about a new Salon article discussing the sexual climate in Silicon Valley. Not nearly as good as other articles on the subject, this feature covers everything from Geeks & their dominant tastes as well as why foreign workers don't get lucky.
You mean that women are real and not just in pictures?
if ($article =~ /completely_pseudocode/) { /completely_english/) {
$ok = 1;
} elsif ($article =~
$ok = 1;
} else {
This mixing gets annoying and hard to read, doesn't it? The comment is not the code. English doesn't get mixed with pseudocode well.
}
Gates' Law: Every 18 months, the speed of software halves.
Upgrade GirlFriend 1.0 to Wife 1.0
Last year a friend of mine upgraded from GirlFriend 1.0 to Wife 1.0 and found that it's a memory hog leaving very little system resources available for other applications.
He is only now noticing that Wife 1.0 is also spawning Child Processes which are further consuming valuable resources. No mention of this particular phenomenon was included in the product brochure or the documentation, though other users have informed him that this is to be expected due to the nature of the application. Not only that, Wife 1.0 installs itself such that it is always launched at system initialization, where it can monitor all other system activity. He's finding that some applications such as PokerNight 10.3, BeerBash 2.5, and PubNight 7.0 are no longer able to run in the system at all, crashing the system when selected (even though they always worked fine before). During installation, Wife 1.0 provides no option as to the installation of undesired Plug-ins such as MotherInLaw 55.8 and SisterInLaw Beta release. Also, system performance seems to diminish with each passing day.
Some features he'd like to see in the upcoming Wife 2.0:
I myself decided to avoid the headaches associated with Wife 1.0 by sticking with Girlfriend 2.0. Even here, however, I found many problems. Apparently you cannot install Girlfriend 2.0 on top of Girlfriend 1.0. You must uninstall Girlfriend 1.0 first. Other users say this is a long standing bug that I should have known about. Apparently the versions of Girlfriend have conflicts over shared use of the I/O port. You would think they would have fixed such a stupid bug by now. To make matters worse, the uninstall program for Girlfriend 1.0 doesn't work very well leaving undesirable traces of the application in the system.
Another thing -- all versions of Girlfriend continually popup little annoying messages about the advantages of upgrading to Wife 1.0
*** BUG WARNING ****
Wife 1.0 has an undocumented bug. If you try to install Mistress 1.1 before uninstalling Wife 1.0, Wife 1.0 will delete MSMoney files before doing the uninstall itself. Then Mistress 1.1 will refuse to install; claiming insufficient resources.
Relationships are hard work. Most people don't put the time necessary into developing/maintaining a relationship.
:)
I think the article is missing the point. It's not a problem of geeks not having sex, it's a problem of geeks having difficulties forming non-computer based relationships. People don't tend to react the same way twice to a given action. This tends to confuse most geeks. You can't walk up to a non-geek, press here, say this, kiss, and hop in bed with them. Seinfeld put it best -- "When it comes to sex, men are like firemen. Always ready. Women are like fire. Not always there when you want it, but when the conditions are right, the result is magical."
I've been married for a spell now, and I have three kids. When my wife and I started dating, we did not hop immediately into bed. We had to get to know each other first.
Sex is mutual concent between two people. Build the relationship and they will come.
--
then it comes to be that the soothing light at the end of your tunnel is just a freight train coming your way
It strikes me all the pseudocode is there just to cover up the lack of real material in the article. Yes, some high-tech workers don't have sex high on the priority list. It happens in Silicon Valley and I've seen it happen in Michigan (not a jab at the Geek Compound; I have friends in Michigan parts of this article describe). So some geeks like alternate sexual methodologies. So? I think that the article would have fit in one page without all the bad (and sometimes buggy) pseudocode.
In fact, I'd have to argue that various bits of alternative sexuality don't have precise protocols. Not being into all the alternatives I cannot comment on them, but I don't think there's a big book of algorithms for going about alternative sexual practices. It's just that high-tech workers know what they want. They're not about to go and not communicate their needs because they think that doing so would be filthy. We know what we want, not that we have a precise checklist.
I'm trying to figure out if all that pseudocode was really there to be cute and stylish, or if it was to conceal the lack of susbstance. But this is Salon, so both answers may be correct.
When I'm singing a ballad and a pair of underwear lands on my head, I hate that. It really kills the mood.
-Tom Jones
Instead, I think the problem is that geeks, especially computer geeks (a group to which I belong), tend to get VERY drawn up in their work, and sort of shut out the rest of the world.
To illustrate that point, we should note that geeks don't "get" enough of in their day-to-day lives often...it's not just sex....it's also: nutrition, sleep, and nearly everything else that gets in the way of accomplishing goals. Driven people make sacrifices and many geeks make sex one of their sacrifices. Add to that the culture shock of Geeks-on-Visas and you have a real fouled up situation.
just my $0.02.
Werd.
I actually find that many geeks are very understanding and considerate. Therefore many girls end wanting them as friends, not as lovers. This is a real problem, which I think geeks should think about.
Cool Cat - The HTML Editor for BeOS. Get it at: www.bebits.com
Begin Rant:
well, i managed to read most of the article, though my mind went drifting on the last page, no offense ppl but i could care less about Silicon Valleys BDSM fetishes and such.
As everyone else has stated the psuedo-code is really fxckin annonying (though i did think the first portion was kinda funny) then its redundent.
This in closing is primarily for Salon, and a little bit for /. WHY? How many people are truly all that interested in the sex lives of Silicon Valley, and the rest of the technoholics personal lives? ...Did we all like suddenly become symbols of American culture? ...Is Linus, Gates, or Jobs (etc.) staring in an intence romance movie or become sex-symbols?
END RANT
PS. Sorry bout that....
I think that if geeks expect that they will be able to find romance at work, there's nothing like an engineering company for that not to come true. Yeah, I guess it'd be nerdvana to have someone that actually understands what you do, but from my experience, that's probably not going to happen due to the abysmal M/F ratio.
But even more important, IMHO, is that you don't want to find romance at work. If something goes wrong, not only will you have the usual pressures at work, but now you've got that former someone there to just make life harder.
Not to mention that if you have a spectacular breakup, especially if the third party also works there, you'll be providing immense gossip fodder and other amusements for the rest of your coworkers. Well, OTOH, if it keeps morale up, why not?
Is this thing on? Hello?
I don't plan to answer the rather pointless barbs thrown at the communities formed around sexual alternatives, which seem to be there only so that he can draw clever but wholly bogus analogies between sex and coding. But it's certainly my experience that these communities provide valuable space where you can be clear and honest about desire without the usual embarrasment and coded messages that often end up meaning that no messages are sent at all, and this can certainly make it easier for those of us who don't find being suave and subtle comes naturally to get laid.
But the secret is that you don't have to be a sadomasochist, or polyamourous, or queer to join. All you need is a few brain cells to rub together, and a positive and open attitude about sex and sexuality. There are organisations that campaign around all issues of sexual freedom and fight negative attitudes that apply even to the very desire to have sex at all, and you can get involved even if you're monogamous, vanilla, and heterosexual. You'll meet lots of interesting and smart people and hear a lot of new ideas on the subject, and you'll certainly hear about new ways to combat the fucked-up memes about sex that this society promotes - and which, if you ask me, are the real barriers that stand in the way of more geeks finding the special pleasures of getting laid.
If you are a pervert, of course, what are you doing? Get in touch with the e-pervs in your area straight away - it's a great opportunity.
Remember, this is important - it's about the serious business of having fun.
--
Xenu loves you!
...but this one decimates it.
--------
Oscarfish.com: tropical fish with attitude. Way t
... This is a real problem, which I think geeks should think about.
Perhaps a few girls might want to think about it, too.
JMR
(I find Paulina's writing -- even without the pseudocode -- incredibly annoying
and filled with stupid overgeneralizing. Don't buy her book!!!)
Try e-gold - (contact me). I'm NOT e-
You all miss the point. Human behavior related to dating and sex always in large part determined by protocols. It can't avoid that -- instincts and culture always create some kind of protocol that determines the basics -- how complete strangers are supposed to start a conversation, how reaction can be judged, etc. Personality of every person determines, what actually is done, yet the basics are just as pre-determined as normal spoken language. There is nothing insulting to our human nature in it, strict rules of English language didn't make Shakespeare a worse writer than if he invented a language for himself, they provided means of expression. And just like people now have trouble understanding some thing in Shakespeare because he used slightly different language from modern English, cultural rules, involved in dating may be completely unknown or misunderstood by a person who comes from different culrural background -- especially from different country.
When people spend their whole life in the same or similar cultural environment they spend their childhood absorbing ("learning" won't be the right word) things that aren't completely based on instinct yet never are expressed in plain words. When any serious change of environment happens people always face the fact that environment changed and their rules don't work. People, unless they are very perceptive or interested in psychology, can't understand, what rules don't work -- they never "knew" rules that they apply in the first place. They get wrong ideas about what people are trying to express. My own main complaint for a long time was a tone, Americans use in their speech, smiles at completely inappropriate times, etc -- it looked like Americans allow themselves to be or look blatantly insincere with their friends and co-workers at the extent that I would consider to be a deep personal insult -- like if in the restaurant a waiter would bring me some dish that costs about $100 and supplied me with plastic fork and knife (no offence to people who didn't mean to insule me -- this is how they looked in the content of my, completely foreign for them, Russian culture).
Most of emotions, values and even behavior norms are universal (more universal than my spelling of "behavior" for sure). No self-respecting male geek (I am talking about men here) would tell a girl that he loves her, and be disinterested in her feelings, or would not try to make her feel comfortable. But the form, in which he would do that, or, even worse, form, in which he would try to start a conversation or judge first reaction to him, would unlikely match local cultural norms. Neither he nor girl would really understand it -- both are acting on things that never were written, expressed or explained to them, but both would feel discomfort in such a situation. In modern culture such discomfort is often expressed as that "chemistry" wasn't compatible (or, in subcultures that are not so fond for pseudoscientific explanations, "I have got a feeling that it isn't for me"), but this is wrong -- no "chemistry" unless it's some really noticeable stench of sweat, can be incompatible with everybody around, and no serious negative "feeling" can be derived from one minute of conversation with a stranger that behaves reasonably courteous. What we see here is plain and simple incompatibility of language, not some unreasonable expectations that human will behave like computer.
The really bad part of it is that no one seriously studied cultural norms of that kind -- people much more embarrassed to dig into "in what situation and how exactly it's appropriate to say 'how are you?' and demonstrate that the answer will be ignored" or "how is it appropriate to reject a guy, romantically interested in you while pretending to care about his feelings, so you wouldn't feel bad about yourself" than in any kind of sexually-freudian crap that ever was written in psychology books or was exchanged between psychoanalyst and patients. This mean, geeks, most of whom represent rather closed subculture, and especially foreign geeks, who represent completely different, sometimes hostile in their base cultures, have no means to learn them unless they will find a way to re-live at least teenage years immersed in this culture (as members, not as outsiders, like even local geeks are at their teenage years).
I understand that the approach that I have used here is clearly and blatantly geeky and definitely not compatible with an attitude, normal in this society. Still it doesn't make me wrong, and history knows a lot of cases when only this kind of approach succeeded in discovering (or expressing, or just in raising awareness) of problems that plagued the societies for decades. I don't know of any solution -- if I knew I would definitely used it for myself -- but I believe, people should realize that this problem exists, and try to solve it, not accuse geeks in "not being sensitive enough", suppress all thoughts of it, pretending that things are supposed to be that way.
Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
The article is kind of paradoxically geeky - examining the geek culture from an outsider's perspective, yet written with all the old geek jokes - "Don't know how to make love," etc. - in. I thought it was pretty cool.
--
I think there is a world market for maybe five personal web logs.
Yes the article is highly annoying with it's pseudocode and it's jump from simple dating to prostitution and sex fetishes. I thought the best point was made early in the article, and has been said quite a few times here...
That is, even though a lot of geeks were geeks before getting into computers, many geeks became geeks involuntarily because they got into computers. There's a list of contributing factors:
1. Computers aren't something you talk about in a bar. Unfortunately for tech workers, their jobs are all but unmentionable in a social setting. There is a geek stereotype which contributes to this, computers AREN'T sexy, and truthfully most people who aren't in the know about computers are mostly intimidated by those who do. It's kinda like being in high school and talking to girls about your SAT scores... you can pretty much kill a conversation if you both discover that you scored 400 points above the person you're talking to.
2. Long, grueling hours. To have a successful social life, time needs to be put into it. However, most tech jobs would make you work the 25th hour of the day if such an hour existed. Friends and lovers don't magically appear. Hell, you have to put a good two hours into buying them if you need to. This is sad that our industry knows this and doesn't really do much about it. In five years everyone's gonna have a midlife crisis (at 26) and jump ship anyway, so they're slowly but surely pushing their workers away by doing this.
3. You get into it. Most tech work can pretty much suck you in and never let go. The way that everything is so complicated and complex, once you're on a roll you don't really want to stop. I mean, you can be "in the zone" for a whole six months if you're working at it 14 hours a day (10 hours on the job + 4 thinking about it in the shower or in the car or while making dinner). Hell, most tech work REQUIRES this if you're going to do a decent job at it. Most professions requiring such intelligence (doctors, scientists, mathematicians, whatever) have this problem, because you can't take your time with the work, otherwise you'll never get anywhere relative to where the world stands now.
4. If computers are easy and women are hard to understand, you probably will stick with computers.
5. That ungodly male:female ratio in Silicon Valley doesn't help much either.
In the end, a lot of this happens unconciously and most people are drawn into a life that they utterly despise and feel trapped by. It's the type of thing where you have to get out when you see it happening to yourself, but most tech people are then further drawn in by the threat of upheaval, the money, the addictive power of the net, etc. In the end, you just have to look out for yourself and keep your priorities straight. If you want a social life that badly, you'll do what it takes to get one - losing your job and moving out of the Valley is a small price to pay for love. There's tech jobs all over the place, and some probably pay more and don't overwork you. Or maybe not, but like I said it's a small price to pay. If you don't think that way at all, then you're probably NOT having a problem with your sex life and you're probably thinking that Slashdot's been going a bit too far with the sex articles...
Personally, I had to marry a geek, as non-geeks just didn't understand when i got an "a-ha" and had to get up and fix my code at 2am. Who else is going to understand your long hours at work but another geek? or how even after a long day at work staring at a computer how you play/code computer games to unwind?? I also agree with an earlier post about how a good relationship takes effort. I found that with a geek-geek relationship at least the some of the communication could go via email or mud so even though we were apart we could keep in touch. so I think the big problem is the shortage of geek girls.
They talk about how nobody's getting any, then they talk about how everyone was into S&M, and then they started talking about how noone is getting any again. WTF?
In more simplified form it's something like "In this subculture the best way to get sex is to look for a kind of sex that 1. is rare (so people involved/interested in it will value them more), 2. breaks some norms in local society (so people, involved/interested in it would be tolerant to geeks, breaking other norms of the same society)".
Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
Geeks are ugly. Or, more to the point, people who sit around all day doing softare or electrical design, aren't usually the sort who live in their bodies. They tend to live in their heads, and sod all with that bag of flesh down below.
Counter-example -- me.
Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
To all those people who claim the article had no substance:
STOP RUNNING IT THROUGH THE PREPROCESSOR!
The proper way to view the article is with a web browser. You're not supposed to download it to article.c, and run 'cc -E article.c' to read the article. (and if you do, at least use the proper definitions for your situation, and remember that all comments will be stripped)
Anyhow, I thought it was a cute gimmick. And isn't that enough for Salon, sometimes?
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pb Reply or e-mail; don't vaguely moderate.
pb Reply or e-mail; don't vaguely moderate.
Being an arrogant asshole HELPS you getting girls; even if they claim the opposite! I know from experience.
Or maybe twice. Don't wear it out.
--
Time is Nature's way of keeping everything from happening at once... the bitch.
I do not relate to this article at all. I have a very healthy sex life but lack a stable relationship. I would prefer to have a good relationship but mindless sex helps me mind less. I find geek women are less likely to want to commit and prefer casual sex. I used to be married and I think I have more sex now, than when I was married (In fact I am sure I do).
You almost answered your own question. Just like geek girls are less interested in casual sex, a lot of geek guys aren't interested in it either. Foreign geek guys even more often so because in a lot of cultures either casual sex is frowned upon in general, or at least is considered acceptable with worthy partner (whatever "worthy" is, it rarely overlaps with a kind of american woman that likes to sleep around). So at least some geeks consider casual sex to be a "masturbation with female body" and are looking for something more meaningful.
Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
So, am I the only one with this problem or are there others like me?
Others have the same problem but much worse. I have been programming for 14 years, 6 of them in this country, with stable result of zero attention from women in all situations that I happened to go through.
Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
How does she go about finding a nice, geeky guy who is not scared away by an instant family?
Good luck to her, but I should warn you and her -- geeks, no matter how bad do they feel, value their self-respect, and can reject a single mother for a simple reason that choosing a woman that has kids should be made by them consciously, not out of desperation. If they feel that they have no choice but look among women, stigmatized by society for something, they don't really relate to (geeks wouldn't have problem with a woman, stigmatized for her geekiness, manner of thinking, etc -- but social position with no "merit" is different), they can reject such a forced choice unless they will see something seriously valuable, _superior_ to others in that woman.
Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
I'm a regular reader of Salon, and this article was pretty disappointing. They, and other magazines, have focused on this before, and it still remains a non-issue.
/* I knew a geek who had sex once...*/
/* I knew a girl once... */
/* Story */
/* Two engineers are walking across campus, when a beautiful woman */
/* rides by on a bicycle. She suddenly vaults off of the bike and */
/* takes off all of her clothes, addressing the first engineer: */
/* "Take anything you want!" she pants lustily, standing naked. */
/* Without batting an eye, the engineer gets on her bike and */
/* pedals away, his buddy jogging with him. "Good choice" says */
/* the buddy, "The clothes probably wouldn't have fit you." */
/* End Story */
/* This may well be the poorest way */
/* of interjecting a thought that I've ever seen. */
/* It works for commenting, but at least the comments */
/* mostly relate quite directly to the code. */
/* In opposition to being a departure from the primary objective */
/* they provide further insight into the confusing aspects. */
/* There is no need to use these, as academia has their own version. */
/* They're called footnotes. */
/* Astonishingly, they're very seldom used to invoke anecdotes, either. */
/* -l */
Why aren't geeks having 'enough' sex? I don't know, but it might have something to do with long working days and lots of stress. Perhaps it has a little bit to do with a lot of greeks being 'fringed' as youngsters and not being into the courtship rituals. Maybe we just don't like people. Perhaps there are a fair proportion of geeks who, having hacked evolution, are not very eager to have their handy-dandy prehensile tails discovered.
This article wasn't even written as a social study, but was fragmented into near unreadability as a result of both the pseudo-code and the lack of flow invoked by the author. The only interesting point was the nod to culture shock and immigration.
This does not keep up with Salon's tradition of doing interesting social commentary. This article was bland and covered issues which people are familiar with from exposure to the canon of geek jokes.
Did Salon really do more than regurgitate the above, backing it up with the knowledge that, gosh gee, a lot of geeks really don't get laid too often?
The best way that this story could have been handled would be to look at the 'new' business and social environment and interaction in Silicon Valley. I know nothing about it, as I work as I work in Ireland -- mix business with pleasure, anyone? I'm curious as to just how people interact, meet each other and what not in an environment that seems insanely pressurised to me, from the congested traffic to the high rent and long hours.
When I'm really engrossed in a project, I know that my social interaction comes with the project team and, occasionally, bystanders, for the most part. Does this occur in Silicon Valley, as well, where friendships and romances arise from convenience? If so, I'm sure the same ramifications exist for work romances, but what's the social view of, say, a millionaire CEO dating his secretary?
For some reason, picturing some programmer millionaire dating his secretary seems much more innocuous to me than his Wall Street equivalent. The perceived innocence of geekdom? Another point they didn't touch on.
That's becoming rather addictive. I think that my next project will be commented in obvious, un-enlightening anecdotes.
Geeks are ugly. Or, more to the point, people who sit around all day doing softare or electrical design, aren't usually the sort who live in their bodies. They tend to live in their heads, and sod all with that bag of flesh down below.
Add me to the list of counter-examples.
Kintanon
Check out JoshJitsu.info for Brazilian Ji
I, for one, am extremely offended by the articles author's portrail of sex in the valey being either straight, or as a sinful cornocopia of pleasure and decadence.
In order to provide some background for that statement, let me tell you a little about myself. I'm a "stereotypical" computer programmer. its easier for me to write C than english. I work from the wrong 9-5. I'd rather spend the day (and the night) finishing that new idea than go out for a night on the town.
i am also a transsexual.
I dont flaunt my different nature (i'm sorta like the coder girl next door, only i wasnt born that way). I have sex less often than elizabeth dole, yet I live in fear that the more I stand out in the crowd, the more likely someone who knew me "before" will stand up and identify me, so that all the people who dont understand (and dont want to understand) can brand me a freak.
Today, I felt something i've never truely felt before.
I was given praise, and felt the respect of my peers.
It is a tragedy that that feeling was completely marred by the fear of someone "outing me".
Frankly, its un-nerving to wonder if this kernel patch is gonna do it, wether i should post my ideas to the mailing list, or if i step on the wrong persons toes, are they going to destroy me?
the division of the valey into two classes (the straight people who dont get any, and the BDSM) in this article is an affront to the existance of the trans/lesbian/gay/bi community as a whole.
theres more to life than black and white. theres a whole lot of people who suffer in the grey areas.
(posting as anonymous coward for obvious reasons)
www.transsexual.org-- for those with a more open mind.
When the title of the story mentioned that it was on Salon, I felt that I was in for a good read. But naaah .. this time Salon disappointed me. Some rubbbish on geeks and lot of 'codes' to cover up for the lack of material left me unsatisfied just like the girls leave me :0
Maybe the writter felt that any article with few words like 'geeks', 'Silicon Valley' and 'Sex' would command viewership and warrant a Slashdot place. Yup, in a way it has but has laft, I am sure, many many unstaisfied geeks !
BTW if u are looking for 'codes' plse go to some usenet of even Free Software site for better 'codes' !
... "follow me" the wise man said, but he walked behind
..the whole concept of dating is absolutely alien to any other culture than yours?
..." is so full of cultural background and knowledge that an european just cant understand it for some time because there are so many things that go without saying/that you are oblieged to know and to do if you dont want to alienate your "date".
Amercan dating is a whole concept of behaviour, strictly defined and hardly understandable for people from other countries. And its one thing american movies/pop culture didnt inject into other cultures.
I am not talking about dating as a form of flirtation, but of dating as a set of rules. In my country (Germany) theres just no defined approach to the other gender, and its never clear when a date is a "date" and its not common knowledge what to do/think if it is - contrary to the dating rules of what to on the first the second and the third date (as far as it was explained to me)...
"to ask someone out for a date" or "Im dating
Ok I've been living in SV for about 6 months now so I feel pretty comfortable commenting on this. The problem is not so much the "geek" personality or lack thereof as it is the fact that there aren't any girls here. The female/male ratio at my company is less than 1/10. I never had any problems finding a girlfriend or meeting people when I was in college but in SV there seems to be a wall around people. Most people are concerened about the next big IPO and 6 figure salaries are not enough. After living here for 6 months I've put a 5 year cap on my time in SV. After that you'll find me somewhere in the pacific on a Pacific Sea Craft boat. And if finding a girlfriend and having a social life means that much to you, you'll do the same.
Vidi, vici, veni. (I saw, I conquered, I came)
For some people, a computer can be a soul-mate, one that is always obedient, one that never questions you, and one that can be turned on and off at will.
Programming is process-oriented; the computer *will* (barring hardware malfunction) do the right thing if you give it a set of valid, consistent instructions.
A human partner, however, is not consistent and does not have an on-off switch. Saying the same sentence on two different days can generate vastly different responses from a biological spouse.
Bottom line: Relationships with people require flexibility, empathy, and even some mind-reading. Contrast this with the simple, direct, and usually logical relationship we can have with a computer, and it's clear why technogeeks prefer hardware over wetware.
I'm a classical nerd, and I've been doing computers since the mid-1970's: but I also have a wife of 18 years and three lovely daughters, in addition to my four computers. Whenever I find myself wrapped up in technology, I remember that a computer can't give me a hug, or fix me breakfast, or show me wet school paper with an "A", or leave a hamster in my bed...
...well, maybe I could do without the latter....
- Scott
With this cartoon.
We nerds can get chicks........it's all about self confidence. You could be ugly, broke, and bleeding from a massive headwound, as long as you've got balls you can get the girl. Self confidence shines brighter thatn any light saber, just don't confuse it for being brash.
"Share your knowledge. It's a way to achieve immortality." -- Dalai Lama
I actually find that many geeks are very understanding and considerate. Therefore many girls end wanting them as friends, not as lovers.
This isn't a geek-specific problem. Plenty of men complain that they are "too nice," and as a result, inappropriate lover material. Though this certainly happens, it strikes me as something of a media cliche. It seems like plenty of romantic comedies have this kind of notion at their heart.
As for the reason, I think it's just that the gender roles that have built up over time are still something people look to. Women frequently want men to be "men." My interpretation of the "too nice" line is "too boring." There's a fine line between nice and submissive. She needs to feel that there are things you'll stand your ground on. It's not that women don't appreciate being treated well, it's just that there are other things which are more important to initial attraction.
add me too, or did all of you play college football too?
Unfortunately I still had the shy, can't pick up a clue to save his life, persona until midway through college. Now I work all the time (my real job and hobbies would seem disturbingly similar to outsiders) and just don't usually make the effort.
BTW, Vacations at exotic locales are great for getting laid, but don't do much for long-term love-gettin'.
+&x
For example: once I went 2 days without eating because I never felt hungry enough to bother making/getting anything.
Where I work, it's only when someone else asks "Are you going to lunch?" that we geeks eat at regular intervals. And the availability of an all-you-can-eat cafeteria is the only thing that has kept our weight up.
We also tend to care for our bodies, we know when we're overweight, and we know when we need to bathe. In fact, you may never realize it if saw a geek walking down the street, as they tend to look like everyone else, they just have different skills.
- Life is what you make of it.
--Alex
This is a signature virus...
Nick
-- "It's a sad day for American capitalism when a man can't fly a midget on a kite over Central Park" - Jim Moran
Source code available at the Human Genome Projects Genome database
If a trainstation is the place where trains stop, what is a workstation?
This is, for obvious reasons, an on-going topic for discussion with my friends, both male and female. It has been INCREDIBLY rough to meet women in SF (I imagine much worse on the peninsula). They can be very snobby and very rude. And they're really not all that great looking compared to midwestern girls. Every guy I know has been made quite bitter by the women of SF. It's a sorry state of affairs. Can't afford housing, can't get a decent partner, can't find parking. And The Man.com is working us too hard. Did I mention my cube has beige fabric on the walls? Ugh.
;) and tall as well. However, I think that if guys would just find some buddies they like hanging out with and that don't embarrass them and actually GET OUT of the house and leave the DSL idle, they might actually have some sex. Don't be afraid of approaching women. And please don't use some stupid line. Just introduce yourself and try to appear normal. Every woman we've talked to has said the same thing. Guys just don't approach me and if they do, they scare me. Don't be scared and don't be scary, guys.
;)
However, it's not quite as bad as I used to think. When I first moved to SF, 4 years ago, I couldn't even get a date. A year ago, however, something changed...
In college, I would have never gone to a bar that was labeled a "meat market". Now, as a hard working adult, I go to such places and guess what? My friends and I hook up. Am I meeting women I would like to have a relationship with? Certainly! But more often than not I find myself enjoying a lifestyle I never had in college. I have never had to talk a woman into going home with me. Somehow the tables have turned and every woman I've slept with in the last year has been the aggressor. I feel like I'm in Chicago...well, it's not THAT easy, but it has gotten a much better.
When we talk to women about how hard it is to meet people, they complain that guys in SF are either gay (total bs -- SF is more straight than ever), short or not gutsy enough to approach them. Guys complain about how unapproachable and snotty women are. Hm. Common theme buried somewhere in there? People can't do anything about their height and sexual orientation is not an issue in most social settings. However, approachability is the key.
Now, I have to admit, I'm pretty damn good looking
And please use protection...kids will kill your action
Brian
That with all that money, geeks are discovering the sordid world of prostitution, strip bars, and massage parlours. We all know that if you have enough money, you can get that girlfriend experience you were denied in highschool. I would guess this is a major market--I hope one of these sex operations goes public so I can invest in it, since it's gotta be the fastest growing industry in silicon valley.
add me too, or did all of you play college football too?
Unfortunately I still had the shy, can't pick up a clue to save his life, persona until midway through college. Now I work all the time (my real job and hobbies would seem disturbingly similar to outsiders) and just don't usually make the effort.
BTW, Vacations at exotic locales are great for getting laid, but don't do much for long-term love-gettin'.
Wrestling and Martial Arts for me, I was never quite big enough for football, though I was invited to be the kicker for my highschool team because the coach saw me do some boardbreaks and stuff... I always prefered slightly less team oriented sports.
Kintanon
Check out JoshJitsu.info for Brazilian Ji
> wanting them as friends, not as lovers. This is a real problem,
Relationships can come and go for the oddest of reasons. Friendships require far less maintenance and can also last a lifetime.
As one of the geeks that can't be bothered with the messiness and "analog"ness of sexual relationships (anyone remember that section of Hackers, by Steven Levy, that describes why the TMRCers never bothered with relationships?), I find a "just friends" arrangement ideal for me.
I'm presently rooming with one of my "just friends". We each have our own spaces; she to read and do research for her career, I to geek out and hack on hardware and software. We both work long hours, seeing each other sporadically during the week. Frankly, we're both too involved and interested in our careers to make time for a relationship (with each other or anyone else) and have sufficiently-differing longterm goals that a relationship between us would be silly anyway. If we want to have a bottle of wine and a good steak, however, we'll make some time and go out on the town to enjoy some the finer things in life, and neither of us has to worry about what happens after.
If you ask a woman out (whom you already know as a friend, we're not talking about strangers in a bar here) and she gives you the LJBF line - Let's Just Be Friends - it ain't the end of the world. She just might be sincere about it.
One more benefit of having a "just friend" - when you do get into a relationship with someone, you'll always have someone you can go to when you need a straight answer on something:
(Any similarity between that post and any conversations I've had is purely a coincidence. Honest. Guys, don't bother cleaning the toilet. Really. The Men Of Silicon Valley don't want your women, and none of them paid me $500 too add this paragraph.)
3. removes/eliminates insincerity, flirting, double entendre
Damn, I like doube entendre's, if you know what I mean.. nudge, nudge..
DrLunch.com The site that tells you what's for lunch!
I think the point has been made that long hours, high stress, and competitive focus severely limit one's ability to get into the dating pool. I don't think, however, that this is the whole story.
If someone is spending time learning how to code and how to design devices, their time is spent in an entirely foreign focus from non-engineers. Learning the dating 'dance' takes time and effort, and most engineers have already dedicated themselves. The computer engineering field is unique in that computers can truly be reward enough for work done, and can suck 100% of an engineer's focus.
It is very easy for a competitive environment to demand absolute attention, and it is very easy for engineers to dedicate their efforts to this environment.
I work in an engineering position at the world's #1 chipset maker, but early on I made the personal decree that no job was worth never learning, never absorbing, an understanding of how women work and what they want/need.
I can't make a sacrifice that great for anything, but it is not hard to see how some people would do it for engineering.
A very good solution, not 100%, but a good one, is to ensure that engineers always have to work in teams. If your focus is entirely on software or electrical design, you severely lack development of communication skills. In teams where communication is the #1 neccessity, this suffering focus is re-aligned to help engineers keep in touch with a more real, communicative world. Granted, it is not an excellent help, but at least an engineer will learn how to maneuver in social situations.
A recent census found Silicon Valley tied with
Alaska with highest imbalance of single males
30 - 50.
I just happened to have the right build (and attitude) for football. Soccer was my first love though, and I was a back-up kicker throug-out my career.
My high-school linebackers coach made this comment at our senior send-off "Roy was the first time I had the oppurtunity to coach a Macintosh computer." I muttered something about windows and laughed appropriately. (this was a number of years ago)
Of all the teams I played on I only knew one other serious geek. I really enjoyed the team aspects of sports, especially since I'm so independant normally. And they did help with the subject of this thread, although not as much as some would think.
+&x
As a girlgeek, it frustrates me to see another article where women geeks get such a cursory mention.
If you are a geek (female or otherwise) can you please first describe the problem, then explain how bad it is instead of doing the second without the first? I don't think, any male geek on slashdot (editors included) has a slightest idea, what kind of sex/romance/dating-relared problems do female geeks have in SV.
Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
I will add that I have always noticed Indian females, prim or otherwise. It would stand to reason that India has some of the most provocative ladies in the world or they would not have a population as large as it is now.
Damn right. There are a lot of Asians in Britain and in my opinion Indian girls are - on average - much better looking than "white" girls. Plus they're generally better behaved.
Consciousness is not what it thinks it is
Thought exists only as an abstraction
I'm utterly stunned by this thread. I'd thought, as a Briton who has absorbed *way* too much American TV, movies and novels, that I *knew* all I needed to know about mainstream U.S. society. Seems I was wrong.
That's rather scary when I consider that I'm moving out to Silicon Valley myself in a couple of months. Eek! Why didn't anybody mention this before?
Oh well, I'm married anyway, so this particular distinction about dating is only theoretical in my case. Still, if there's anything else that's different but not commonly known I'd be grateful if SOMEONE WOULD LET ME KNOW!
Consciousness is not what it thinks it is
Thought exists only as an abstraction
Actually that's a serious question deserving of a serious answer. There was some recent research (done at Edinburgh University I think) which analysed people's preferences for certain types of sexual partner and on the basis of the empirical evidence they found - unsurprisingly, if disappointingly - that in general, women seeking a partner for sexual thrills (such as they are wont to do when they are younger) tend to seek macho, physically superior types. But when looking for a partner with whom to form a long-term relationship they tend to go for more sensitive, thoughtful, intelligent types. The two types are more or less mutually exclusive. You might as well call them Jocks and Nerds.
The researchers concluded that this behaviour stems from biological imperatives honed by evolution. The implication is that the "ideal" outcome for a human woman in a natural setting (i.e. pre-civilisation) is for her to get impregnated by a physically superior male thus passing on the best survival genes to her offspring. But, since this type of male is continually in demand with other nubile females, he is unlikely to stick around for the pregnancy let alone the hassle of providing for those offspring. Consequently, women are programmed to seek a more practical partner to help her rear the children, so... the Nerd type gets leftovers.
Nerd-type males who've been lucky enough to hook an attractive girl into a long-term relationship without her first getting impregnated by a Jock will probably think they've beaten the system. Think again. It's not as if one drive switches off forever and the other one kicks in. Your loving S.O. will still be attracted to Jock types, perhaps even in spite of herself.
Just to rub it in, some genetic studies performed a few years ago showed that in the US and the UK, the rate of "cuckoo" pregnancies (those resulting from extramarital sex) was as high as 1 in 10.
It hardly needs to be said that from the Nerd male point of view, this sucks *badly*.
So, what can you do if you don't fancy leftovers and you don't want someone else...er...eating at your table while you're out?
The answer I've adopted in practise is straightforward enough, even obvious: adopt non-Nerd, quasi-Jock protective coloration, both to win your girl and keep her from straying:
(i) Drink lots of beer.
(ii) Drool over other females.
(iii) Do sports. Especially martial arts, to frighten off those bastard Jocks (some of them *are* bastards, they've even got Nerd dads to prove it...)
(iv) Cultivate loud, obnoxious Jock or quasi-Jock friends with whom you can share in the above activities. But don't leave them alone with your girl, even for a minute.
(v) Occasionally treat your girl badly. But not too often.
(vi) Belch and fart; long, often, and with gusto (the beer helps. You can also try pickled onions).
(viii) Touch your privates regularly (I'm not talking about indecent exposure or masturbation, just scratching or rearranging them through your pants, like because they're so huge that they're uncomfortable being cooped up).
In other words, make a point of demonstrating your maleness frequently.
And all the while, keeping those intrinsically lovable Nerd qualities of kindness, thoughtfulness, consideration etc. so you'll still be the perfect long-term partner.
Anyway, that's how I've got away with it so far: I'm a self-made hybrid Nerd-quasi-Jock. It works for me...
If there are any girls reading this and they don't like it...tough! We guys didn't make the rules, we're just doing what we have to. You girls had it coming!
Consciousness is not what it thinks it is
Thought exists only as an abstraction
That's the most interesting, insightful thing I've heard for quite a while.
Consciousness is not what it thinks it is
Thought exists only as an abstraction
Not True - Not True at all.
There is 1 single aspect that is at the deepest center of the female mind - an instinct which has been honed to precise perfection. (either by millions of years of evolutionary development, or by the direct genetic manipulation of superior beings - dependant on you POV).
It is not :
The one thing that drives a woman to select a mate is - Power. Girls reading this will reluctantly agree that this is true, if they are honest about it.
How many women continue to run back into the arms of a total pig of man, who cheats on her, forgets her birthday, insults her mother, etc ? Looking on as men, we cannot understand this, but in a woman's eyes, such men have around them an aura of power that makes the woman always come back 'but I love him' she cries.
What is power and why do women melt at it ? Money is not power, nor are big biceps. Power is about control. You can have a totally rich geek who works out at the Gym 4 nights a week, but whos life is controlled by those around him. He is a yes man, he slinks around with shoulders hunched, and averts his eyes from his 'superiors'. Men cant pick this up, but women see this as weakness - not fit to bear children and provide security for a family. Women outwardly may show more feeling and compassion, but in the deepest heart of a women there is no place for weakness in her partner.
In contrast, you can have someone like al-bundy, useless, flat broke, no feminine side at all - But hey, there is an aura of certainty and security around him. You know that he will always be there for Peggy & the kids, and thats what really counts.
If you want a woman to want you in a more than superficial LJBF way, then dont treat her like your sister, dont treat her like your mother - and dont act like her personal assistant. Act like a bull male lion - approaching a lioness.
Finally, dont fall into the trap of giving her what you want her to give to you ... you are both different, and want different things. Love and Cherish her, and She will return Love and Respect .. subtle but important difference there.
If a girl of any age wants to hit it off with guy... most men are suckers for the dumb chick ploy, geeks are no exception. She should join a LUG that has realspace meetings, find a suitably handsome geek and ask him to show her how to "do it". Nothing easier.
Consciousness is not what it thinks it is
Thought exists only as an abstraction
Ok....time to go post on one of the more recent articles. :)
Heh. Old articles are cool to hang out in. It is where the population is low and the moderators dare not follow.
:)