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Silicon Hell
ferlatte writes: "There's a great piece on the effects of the tech industry in Silicon Valley on the environment and their workers. Pretty scary stuff, and sort of unsettling to think about how many toxic substances went into that shiny new laptop. The story is available at http://www.sfbg.com/News/34/30/siliconhell.html." Maybe the industry needs to set up "PolluteE", a "watchdog" agency to make sure companies post their pollution policies prominently on their Web sites...Update: 05/04 11:08 by michael : A good link from the comments: the Silicon Valley Toxics Coalition.
Evironmental storys are always "scary stuff," they write it that way. And most of the time, its nothing but hyperbolie
ReadThe ReflectionEngine, a cyberpunk style n
Be a tragedy of monumental proportions to see the industry that has pushed forward the boundaries of technology so far wind up costing people their lives.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
More seriously, any company with a good (anti)polution policy - including biproducts of the manufacturing process itself - typically shouts it from the rooftops. The trick is to get consumers to consider it in a purchase.
Check out http://www.svtc.org/ for detailed maps of all the toxic sites in Silicon Valley. Very scary.
what the hell are you talking about?
People have already been exposed to computers for over twenty years, and while there is some (mostly baseless) concerns about the genetic effects of plastics, there isn't much more plastic in computers then anything else. Its not like people are going inside there cases an licking there motherboards, and unlike asbestos, the stuff in computers doesn't become particles in the air.
ReadThe ReflectionEngine, a cyberpunk style n
I had a bit of a hard time with the article since it started right off saying that cleanroom workers wear "sterile suits." Of course they're not sterile... they're clean. Keeps dander and the like off of your shiny new Athlon.
There are some pretty scary chemicals used in the semiconductor manufacturing process, though. Take HF, for instance - it'll leach the calcium out of your bones. Through your skin. (This same substance is used in alloy wheel cleaner...). Some of the gases that go into the mix are morbidly called "two-step" gases - one whiff, take two steps, and you're dead.
Of course this is all taken pretty seriously. Worker safety is extremely important - organizations like Semi have very strict requirements on safety interlocks for the processing equipment, for example.
As far as environmental impact goes, I think it's becoming important as well. Applied Materials, the largest manufacturer of semiconductor processing equipment, has a "Green Initiative" which seeks to minimize environmental damage in the manufacturing process. Take for example this press release:
SANTA CLARA, Calif., October 7, 1997 -- Applied Materials, Inc., the leading supplier of CVD (chemical vapor deposition) systems to the worldwide semiconductor industry, has introduced a key technology innovation for its dielectric CVD products that provides the industry's first zero-consumables chamber cleaning process and virtually eliminates PFC (perfluorocompound) emissions.
"Applied Materials is very concerned about global warming gases used in the semiconductor industry and is voluntarily leading an effort, in cooperation with its customers, to find ways to eliminate their emission. Our Remote Plasma Clean technology not only provides a breakthrough in environmental safety by virtually eliminating global warming emissions from dielectric CVD systems...
So yeah, there's a lot of scary stuff, but I think the industry does make a real effort to keep it under control. The article was a bit shocking, though... I hadn't heard those stories...
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I can't believe that these places were never inspected by the government for things like this... isn't there some agency in charge of this? and if there isn't, shouldn't there be?
Another thing that gets me is that none of the workers brought this subject up to the government... you'd think that some of them would get worried...
I know a good portion of you are anti-government-power, but this is one area where they should be allowed to regulate...
-- Dr. Eldarion --
It's not what it is, it's something else.
...especially with the short life span, but Wired ran a great story (available 2000.05.16) in the last issue about using Flywheels instead of lead-acid batteries. When can I get a Flywheel UPS?
This may or may not be relevant, but scorecard.org has info on who makes what pollution where. Additionally, it has contacts so you can email or send a fax to companies that are polluting your area. Check it out!
Some of the accidents were probably caused by tired people, like the worker who accidently mixed alcohol, nitric acid, and hydrofluoric acid. He survived the fireball, but died soon later. Many of the IC fabs require employees to work 12 hour shifts to reduce particulate introduction into the clean rooms. Near the end of a shift people are so tired that they aren't thinking straight. My brother worked in a fab for a few years, but quit. The money just wasn't worth the strain on his system.
--
"You've crossed my Line of Death!" "What? No! Where is it?" "Here in the fine print...."
Working around harsh chemicals may give you cancer? Who'd a thunk it?
http://kered.org
Part of the problem with flywheels is that if they come apart, they kill people... there's a sh*tload of energy stored up, and it's moving really really fast... one cool solution I've heard is to make it out of a tightly wound kevlar cord - then if it fails, it just turns into a ball of spaghetti instead of flying shrapnel in the mall parking lot. :-)
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From the article:
The company's legally required material-safety data sheets warned of possible nausea and dizziness from the chemical-filled tubs over which he worked, Loanzan said, "but they didn't say anything about tumors. They never talked about the place being dangerous."
Correct me if I'm wrong here, but don't the material-safety data sheets HAVE to state it if the chemical is a known carcinogen? And seriously, is acetone all that carcinogenic? I used to wear nail polish, and I hate to think of how many tumors I caused myself while removing that stuff.
Here's another one:
One of the main ingredients in the cutting fluid, according to Hawes, has been linked in studies to brain cancer.
Hmm, what's this mystery ingredient? Anyone know? Who did the studies? Why is a lawyer being quoted on the subject of whether or not something causes cancer?
Now the concerns raised in the article may be quite valid, but the fearmongering crap makes it almost impossible to take seriously.
--Shoeboy
(former microserf)
From the way the /. post was worded, it almost sounds like NAS (Nerve Attenuation Syndrom, I think it was) from the movie Johnny Mnemonic. :P
Next week, how tax can kill your unborn child.
This is the first story of its type, and I give full credit to the author for being an excellent, first-rate muckraker!
I once did a brief contract at Lam Research, and I had to go through a hazardous materials briefing, althought the most deangerous chemical in the systems room was the first system. The briefing scared the pants off of me. It was basically "Here's how all the various chemicals can kill you." Flourine sucks the calcium from your bones and heart. Various acids will eat you alive. Those of you who think the bunny suits are cute, remember - they are not just for decorations. :-)
"Where quality is like a dead stinking rat - you just can't miss it."
Scary scary stuff. Anytime you start playing with the environment things get spooky.
I can't remember where I saw it, but up here in Michigan (DetroitMetro) there are something like 20 locations that are considered hazardous. There is a website out there that lists the address/location and why it's been catagorized as such.
Anyway, around here there's an empty parking lot directly across from an old Burrough's (calculator) factory. It's now Unisys. But, for some odd reason the parking lot was never used and was chained off after Burrough's went under, and then a mysterious small fenced-off building was built on the lot.
As I was looking on the site, I saw that this location was considered "very hazardous", and was in "cleanup" currently. When we were kids we played in that lot!!! Scary!!!!!!!!!!!
-brain
They will only very slowly make their way into the market. There was a company trying to make an electric car that used flywheels for storage, instead of dry cells. I don't think anything ever came of it.
Right now, there are companies working on using flywheels as UPS's, but only for very large-scale installations. For instance, currently telco central offices have massive racks of batteries as backup. These exist purely to power the telephone switches for the 30+ seconds that it takes to fire up the diesel generator in the case of a power outage.
When you are talking about replacing *rooms* of batteries with one, big flywheel, then it is economical -- and certainly more environmentally friendly. The economics of PC UPS's aren't there yet. These things may eventually wind up in being used in such small-scale systems, but I can't see it happening for a long time.
flywheels *are* kind of neat, though...
--Lenny
Yee..
scary stuff, especially the "Tumors big as grapefruits" thing.. I know they use some pretty vicious chemicals to make all these neat things for me, but what about the side effects of using them? Off-gassing, EMF, Etc. etc..
Any funding availiable for a study on the AC's that sit 18 hours a day in a 5 foot cubical filled with blinking lights, Electrical outlets all around them, habitually reloading slashdot to get the "first post!"??
-
air and light and time and space
What's to prevent a tech firm from just outsourcing it's production to a country/state/area that doesn't require that law?
Its a potential problem, but none of the flywheels produced by these companys (mentioned in the wired artical) have ever shown any signs of fatige other then a few small layers cracking (but not comming off) and that was when it was spinning way over spec. Battires are much more likely to blow up.
ReadThe ReflectionEngine, a cyberpunk style n
This "article" is published by the SFBG, aka The San Francisco Bay Guardian. This highly reputable and serious news organization's headline for today is:
"Cross-Dress For Less! Charles Anders hits Union Square in search of the perfect tranny wardrobe"
Thanks, but no thanks. Transvestites, and bullshit hippie news articles are both things I try to avoid. I'll stick to ZDNet. I just hope that some earthquake or bizzare boating accident kills off these new bozo Timothy/Mikey-likes-it Slashdot authors so we can get back to the Slashdot we all remember.
Bowie J. Poag
Bowie J. Poag
After studying the deaths of 15,000 slashdot readers between 1998 and 1999, they found that 1500 of them died from brain cancer, due to the radiation of the monitors they were sitting in front of. To this date, Slashdot has yet to submit their toxic output to the EPA.
Feed The Need[goatse.cx]
You may have noticed that there are a lot of immigrant men working in the Valley. You may have noticed that a lot of them are on H-1B visas. You may have noticed that a lot of them have wives also from their home countries, often India. Well, in many of those cases, since the woman is in the US as part and parcel of her husband's visa, if she leaves him, she has no legal ability to work or stay in the US by herself. So, if her husband beats her, she has almost nowhere to turn.
Domestic violence for anyone in the US is horrible and difficult to escape. But at least for citizens, there's a chance to stay in the same country as your children, support yourself, and live as a single woman, even a single mother. These women don't have that choice. To be a divorcee in India is unusual and socially not-very-acceptable in a lot of places, and a single mother is almost unthinkable in many places.
SF Weekly is running an article on this problem. It's not hardware-related, but it may make you think about the costs of our current system.
Ceterum censeo Microsoftam esse delendam.
I get the feeling this is more likely yellow journalism than a thoughtful analysis of the pros and cons...
My impression is that this article could be reduced to:
"An industrial accident at FooCorp. injured x workers and exposed many more to hazardous materials. Does this remind us of the old 'ends vs. means' question and the dangers of exploiting advanced technology? Yes. Do I, as yet another journalist re-hashing this question have an answer? No."
What frustrates me is that stories like this run not to raise awareness so much as to sell copy. It's FUD, pure and simple.
I guess the only difference here is that the "computer industry" allegedly claims to be "cleaner" and "safer" than other industries.
Sure, I guess. I mean, I've never really heard any of those claims, while I am aware of the hazmats and pollution attendant on high-tech manufacturing. So I'm unaware of any hypocrisy here--this feels more like FUD to me.
Every industry has demonstrated clear hazards to life and limb for those involved in it, and while people have often questioned the "goodness" of those industries, it's interesting to note that we continued to [mine coal|manufacture plastics|hunt whales|&c.] until the economic factors dictated otherwise--safety, both personal and environmental, has always been a secondary consideration.
This threat from the "computer is either a) a non-issue, relatively speaking, or b) suitable for serious discussion outside of random slow-news-day pseudo-editorials.
But then, I'm a cynical bastard with little or no moral conscience, so what do I know?
Any sufficiently well-organized community is indistinguishable from Government.
Will we ever learn? Same old story. Short memory, short memory.
Actually the most toxic substance in Silicon Valley is all the caffienated beverages! Ahhhh, time for my caffiene injection ...
Sorry, dude, but the mortality rate is 100%, everybody dies from something eventually. Yeah, it takes nasty stuff to make computers, so do you want your computer or a pristine environment? You CANNOT have both. Do you want to freeze in the dark with clean air or do you want to stay warm and see your computer screen in a polluted atmosphere? You gotta choose. Sorry, but everything you do "pollutes" the earth, either actively (if you ever took a shit, you've polluted the environment) or passively (every time you turn on a light you create demand for evil electric generation). Ride a bike instead of driving a car? Like the metal frame didn't come from a mine somewhere, and the synthetic rubber tires sure came from some bad chemicals. Get over it, get on with your life. Earth First! - we'll strip-mine the other planets later...
>Clean rooms are "cleaner than hospital rooms," Oswalt said. "I'd rather live there than be on the street."
/. posters' denial of that idea; tough to reconcile while you use your $1500 computer to read the article, isn't it? Did you really think $1500 could buy any sort of environmental control and worker protection? Somebody had to pay for that stuff you're using, and it sure wasn't you.
What the hell kind of meaningless statement is that? Even for a corporate spokesthingy this is idiotic. Not that I wouldn't like to see it happen; kind of like the Chinese officials responsible for airline Y2K readiness (the sky is falling, indeed). Too bad that really was a chicken little story, but this isn't.
The whole consumer electronics industry (including and especially computers) has always rested on inexpensively poisoning people too poor to have a choice in the matter. It's amusing to watch the
-- Life is short. Forgive quickly. Kiss slowly. ~ Robert Doisneau
I love the smell of free radicals in the morning... it smells like computing power!
BlackNova Traders
This article is nothing but innunendo with no substance written by someone who has a strong (and quite possibly correct) prebias. There are no data and some of the examples are laughable. Articles like this are good at spooking the public but are useless for information content. Their lead piece about nitric acid is a great example. Sure nitric acid is a hazardous chemical and if you mix it (carefully) with another hazardous chemical ammonia (one of those "two step gasses") what you get?
Ammonium Nitrate AKA fertilizer woooooo nasty!!!
I would have been interested in an article that focussed on halogenated hydrocarbons but anecdotal tumor stories are pathetic. Had they listed the percentage of tumor patients in IBM employees vs the general populace that might be useful.
If you haven't read this article I'd suggest you skip it.
no sig.
But after two operations to remove malignant tissue the size of a grapefruit, the tumors grew back, leaving him numb and barely mobile.
The size of a grapefruit?! Why do I think it was the surgery which left him immobile? Or did he just have a really big head?
--Jeff
Wanted for the murder of John. E. Overclocker...
Earlier today a Pentium Celeron 300a overclocked to 550MHz was resposible for killing a computer user by the name of John E. Overclocker. Witnesses to the murder gave a description of the assailant to be a small silicon wafer, charred beyond recognition muttering the phrase "Who's the bitch now?" fallowed by large outbursts of "Muwhahahahahhahahaha". No autopsy has been performed yet, but the authorities suspect the murder weapon was actually a large quantity of toxic gases. "And I thought Microsoft was evil..." says one local user of the Linux operating system.
The CEO of Intel, I.P. Freely qouted in his press confrence today that "Phase 1 of Project Annihilation is complete!!! Engage the Death Ray(TM)". Intel's CEO, after the press confrence, was reportedly caught by the Australian Internet Police weilding a large, death ray like, metallic device. The Australians said to have caught him zapping their army of cyborg Koalas.
-Insane ramblings by Kwikymart
(dont mind my spelling)
Buying a Dell computer is equivalent to dropping the soap in a prison shower.
I had no idea... So now what? I don't like car pollution, so I walk, I take a bus, I carpool if I have to (I pay for the gas since I can't return the favor). But how am I supposed to go around finding out who was environmentally safe and who didn't abuse their employees when I'm shopping for computer equipment? Frustrating...
--
Peace,
Lord Omlette
AOL IM: jeanlucpikachu
[o]_O
A man got killed and the fine was $1000, because "it was mostly his own fault". That's one massive chronic failing in many things in our society. Regulations without *ANY* teeth, effective 'control' by the groups who have a vested interest in the status quo, and an utterly idiotic amount of outrageous incidents and tragedies before anything is done.
The term 'tombstone technology' applies to nearly everything mankind does.
Doing a MSc in Physics (opto-electronics), I got fully indoctrinated into my University's safety system and regulations (which were impressive, strict, enforced, and followed), so I know a bit about what they are talking about. WRT the above incident, our regs were basically "yes you are responsible for your own safety, but so is your manager/supervisor, and so is your supervisor's supervisor, etc etc". Responsibility doesn't just 'stop' with one or two people.
In my and my co-orker's work, we dealt with comparatively small amounts of these chemicals, and yet we were highly protected. Tri-choroethylene, HF, and the other things mentioned frequently in that article, were not handled unless you were fully suited ( heavy rubber smock, heavy rubber gloves, full face mask, etc ), and were never used outside of a fume cabinet with the partition lowered as far as possible. Haz mat chemical lockers were *everywhere*, and 1 gallon bottles and even squirt bottles were NEVER left out unless actually in use. You only kept out the minimum quantities for what you were doing, no pouring a few ml from the gallon jugs. NOTHING was unlabled. No one got to work in a given lab until they had spent a serious amount of time (a couple days for 10 pages for me for 4 labs) writing up a major paper (on their own) describing in detail all of the hazards in the lab, what the procedures to reduce the hazards were, what the responses to incidents with each specific hazard was, etc etc.
Now the kicker. Remember our friend Tri-cloroethylene? The one I didn't handle even in small quantities unless fully suited and with a fume cabinet? The one suspected of being a cancer causing agent, that is highly flamable, that blew up on the guy in the story above (who was mixing 'vats' of it with no personal protection or fume hood?)
It's used as the 'carrying agent' in 10% of lawn herbicides. That's right. They spray a 90% solution of it on YOUR lawn, or one of your neighbours lawns.
You should have seen the look on my face as I sat on my couch watching the investigative news report about this back in 1996, knowing what I know about how we in a University semiconductor lab dealt with this compound.
Well, what exactly would be breathing in from your computer? the stuff just dosn't turn into dust. I mean, yeh it probably wouldn't be a good idea to eat a motherboard, but who would do that?
ReadThe ReflectionEngine, a cyberpunk style n
1) The manufacture of electronic components does certainly involve the use of large amounts of various solvents. Many of them are particularly nasty, (I've worked with toluene and methyl ethyl ketone, for instance, and they're no joke), and it is to be noted that chemists use fume hoods and gloves even when working with acetone. Of course, it's also worth noting that chemists have pretty bad work-related fatality and illness statistics. Anyway, the point is that the high-tech industry certainly uses large amounts of toxic chemicals, that much you can't really argue with.
2) It will inevitably be cheaper and quicker, at least in the short term, to deal with these chemicals in an irresponsible manner than it would be to deal with them responsably. Protective equipment is expensive.
From there you can do the math for yourself. I don't see how the conclusions in this article are unbelievable or even surprising. One would expect the electronics industry to have these kinds of problems, regardless of whether the specific claims of the article are true or backed up by statistics. What's really scary is that this will almost certainly get worse as the industry moves more and more into the third world.
I think this is an issue of which people in the tech industry need to be much more aware. Consumer awareness could put pressure on manufacturers to be more clean. At the very least, it's something to think about as we sit down in front of our computers.
the other three are:
IMO, the "Garbage In" article is a bit more informative and less tear-jerky than the one linked in the main story.
BTW, I used to live up in Rhode Island where they used to have a sizeable jewelry industry. This also involved the use of some nasty solvents and heavy metals. Needless to say, RI has/had a serious problem with ground contamination. I had friends that would put on the old environmental bunny suit and then walk into technicolor sludge in order to take samples for testing. Hopefully, this will not be the future of Silicon Valley.
Finally, one consideration is ground water contamination in a particular area. The contaminants slowly migrate away from their dump site. The affect of this slow diffusion may take many years to become noticeable or a threat, but the process is difficult to reverse. IOW, this can represent a slowly ticking time-bomb.
This article does raise a few important questions, and makes you wonder about how the computer industry affects the enviroment. In an industry where the entire productlines change every year or so, how do you measure the enviromental impact these companies are having if the constantly upgrade their manufacturing equipment? How many of them fall in and out of EPA guidlines from one product cycle to another? And how do prove what chemicals gave someone cancer when they have worked there for 20 years and have been exposed to many different chemical mixes used only for a few years each?
... but I think the industry does make a real effort to keep it under control.
Not to pick on you, but... Press releases are carefully-crafted documents to show a company in the most positive light possible. Do not ever, ever take them as fact, without doing other research. Press releases are essentially advertising.
Maybe Applied Materials is doing something good, maybe not. A press release alone can't tell you.
Does everyone here know what "greenwashing" is? It's the PR practice of trying to make a company look pro-environment, and there's a LOT of money being spent on it. Greenwashing became widespread in the 90's, with the increase of public awareness of environmental issues. Many millions of dollars are spent each year on advertising that fosters pro-environmental images of companies, more money than is actually spent on pro-environmental activities by those same companies. Advertising conferences conduct sessions on greenwashing, and hire speakers who are experts at it. Corporations hire professional greenwashing consultants.
Be aware that greenwashing is all around you, and avoid being fooled by it. Watch for it yourself, the next time you see one of those disgusting "People Do" commercials for Chevron, which is one of the single most environmentally destructive corporations on the planet.
Some companies are pro-environment, some aren't. As with everything else, decide which is which only with care and research. Be leery of information that comes (even indirectly) from the company or person you're investigating.
Why not post them at boot time? ;)
Best regards,
SEAL
'Nuff said. Typical journalistic FUD.
-- Life is short. Forgive quickly. Kiss slowly. ~ Robert Doisneau
...that a lot of people posting replies to this article seem to have the attitude "Companies have been polluting the environment forever, this is just more sensational journalism." That may be true, but if this sort of thing is not reported then it will not be addressed. Sure, the EPA may try to track down polluters, but how many of us have faith in a government beauracracy to take care of us? Journalists looking for stories may find something the EPA has overlooked, or highlight something they haven't. The resulting public outcry will (hopefully) *encourage* the polluter to clean up their act. I personally would rather have too many of these scare stories than too few.
"Truth is like a tragedy" -Coal Chamber
Nina's Adventures - "Ecollusion"
I can see it now:
A crazed coworker can't take the stress anymore. He whips out his revolver and shouts...
"Nobody move or the UPS gets it!"
Heh.
The average rate of cancer in males is 44.66% (I'm assuming that, at least historically, a significant majority of the workers were male). This would be about 12,000 of the 25,000 worker deaths IBM has on file. Compare this with the actual rate of cancer deaths (The file now shows that 8,000 of the 25,000 deaths were due to some form of cancer, Hawes said.) and it appears that working at IBM reduces the risk of cancer by 33%.
Yes, I shout at the TV when those ads are on. :-)
But you shouldn't be too cynical, either. Some companies really do make an effort. A bunch of semi companies here in Austin have signed up for "Green Choice" power from the electric co - paying about 4% extra which will buy power from wind farms, etc.
And although that press release from Applied Materials did look a bit cheesy, this one (yeah, another release... the EPA has a corroborating story here) points out that they got a Climate Protection Award from the EPA in 1999.... "This year's award recognizes only ten individuals and organizations worldwide that have made exemplary efforts and achievements to protect the global climate."
So yeah, be wary, but applaud those who ARE doing good things...
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...one time. Really hard to learn anything in that course, since the stuff changes so fast. It was cool though, since we got to work with some graphical process simulation software.
The other thing I came away with from that course is that yes, there are a *lot* of toxic chemicals involved in chip making. Arsenic and Diborane leap to mind. One guy I knew worked in a lab where there was a "solid arsenic source". I used to kid him about having arsenic on a stick. Every day, I used to walk by a tank full of liquid nitrogen the size of a large van. Ah... the prank potential that went unrealized with that liquid nitrogen.
For all intensive purposes, "whom" is no longer a word. That begs the question, "who cares"?
Huh? A code violation is a code violation - being big doesn't give you an excuse to make more of them. Rather, it makes you more responsible to avoid making them, because the effect is magnified when you do.
If it were "accidents" or even "fires" I'd agree with you, but that's not what we're talking about here. Violating some code occurs because the company chose to do things that way. It's not a question of scale, but of policy.
-- Life is short. Forgive quickly. Kiss slowly. ~ Robert Doisneau
Do you think that steak you ate last night was really safe just because some government agency said it was? Inspectors can be paid off, and many people know ahead of time when an inspection is scheduled so they clean up for the inspection.
Only the State obtains its revenue by coercion. - Murray Rothbard
HaHa how true that is. Not only is caffine more addictive than a controled substance like marajana, it hurts your body more. But oh man !! Caffine is one great thing to be addicted to !!
Uh, a fire code violation can be as simple as using an exstention cord. In fact, thats one of the things that was mentioned in the artical.
The more people you have, the more mistakes are going to be made. This particular company had only about 150 violatoins out of tens of thousands of employees.
ReadThe ReflectionEngine, a cyberpunk style n
'nuff said.
Its like the Sammy Hagar song: Heavy.... heavy metals!
A problem with chemical safety is we only recently understood the risks. It was not so long ago that toulene and xylene were used as freely as rubbing alcohol. We now know better. One of my memories is the day that I finally convinced the people at a fab that acetone was actually dangerous. I spent a year trying to convince everyone that we needed fume hoods and carriers. When everyone had finally read and understood the MSDS, there was a push to get rid of all the acetone. This, of course, was an overreaction. I worked out some numbers to show which cases were safe and which weren't. The key was for everyone to understand how to safely use the chemical, and try to use it in an inherently safe way. We must remember that the accident in Japan was caused by worker confusion, supervisor pressure, and deprivation of needed resources.
My main desire is that companies take an extremely objective look at the safety issues, the alternatives, and not put business expediency above the objective conclusions.
BTW, a good book that talks about, among other things, the difficulty of matching medical cause and effect is A Mathematician Reads the Newspaper.
"She's a scientist and a lesbian. She's not going to let it slide." Orphan Black
Thanks for pointing out the source, Bowie. Your post is about the only sensible thing I've seen about this article. I doubt anyone at that paper has so much as a BS. As L.C. Tacitus said about two thousand years ago, "Outrage is the sensualists final pleasure." This article can be discounted at face value, as can other disreputable publications mentioned in other posts here, especially Mother Jones. GET AN EDUCATION, DO SOMETHING PRACTICAL, AND YOU MIGHT UNDERSTAND!
OK, you want some specific refutation to such bull shit? Well, no. The article was supposed to provide proof. Instead it prattled on with hearsay, missuesd real statistics, and showed us how bad brain tumors are. Does the local PVC plant really disperse tons of clorine into the air every year, or does it make tons of pipe? Go look up deaths and cancer by proffesion. Last time I looked it was librarians and school teachers. Learn how to evaluate statistics, and find out if there are any real elevated death rates. I don't think cross dressers are up to it, and I'm glad someone called them on it.
The wierd thing is that government policy can be made to follow such hyseria. Look what happened to nuclear power. I hope that does not happen here.
Wow, check out all the hate surrounding this article. I suppose high heals makes some people bitchy. It's too bad people like that are free to vote, instead of being locked up in the nut house where they belong. Since when is a mental illness considered a Lifestyle? Phobia, I don't think so.
As someone already pointed out earlier, the 90's are pretty much over. We're all very, very tired of being "politically correct" and stepping around like a bunch of fucking ballerinas hoping not to step on somebody's precious little toes or say anything that might possibly wound somebody's "inner child". Its retarded. Nobody says what they mean anymore, because they're afraid of what people will "think" of them. Well, I could give two shits less than half a rats ass what guys who get off wearing women's clothing think of me, so here you go:
Welcome to the 00's : Transvestites are freaks, and legitimate journalism doesn't appear in magazines where crap like "tranny fashion" takes the front page story. Wake the fuck up.
Bowie J. Poag
Bowie J. Poag
Why do you read Slashdot if you only want to be exposed to your own point of view?
Ceterum censeo Microsoftam esse delendam.
She actualy used to have her strip published in the "toons" a weekly paper full of cartoons published here in ames.
anyway, I always figured her for the reactionary type. Annoying those people. Here is a self portrate she drew of herself. Interesting.
ReadThe ReflectionEngine, a cyberpunk style n
here's a link to the fatbrain profile for the book A Mathematician Reads the Newspaper by John Allen Paulos.
Hey that's great. I'm all for space exploration. Whether by Nasa, a foreign space agency(s), or private enterprise. At the same time, I don't like the idea of doing it at the expense of laying waste to the earth and giving cancer to half of it's inhabitants. NASA is actually pretty good in regards to pollution prevention. Sure they got ragged on for using radioactive substances once in a while, but in nearly all cases, the element used was in a state where it would have no disastrious effect on the environment. They also chose to use Xenon gas in the Ion Propulsion unit used in Cassini which while more expensive, won't be a factor with environmental damage unlike other gases.
Oh yeah, as for people going into space... well.. people like you probably wouldn't pass the psychological examination required for astronauts. So feel free to let just shrug yoour shoulders and let industrial pollution spread. When you're 50 and have a golf ball growing on the inside of your head, I'm sure you'll have the same opinion on the matter. People like you give the space industry a bad name.
What's up with hi-tech crises today?
While I'm glad they're raising the issue, this article is a bit sensationalistic. For example:
Acetone is the main ingredient in nail polish remover and isopropyl alcohol is also known as rubbing alcohol and is available at the drug store for about a dollar a pint. Of course, even common household chemicals like these can be dangerous with frequent and excessive exposure, but Cook & Thompson know that referring to them by their chemical names makes them sound exotic and scary.
In fact, all of the chemicals they mention in their article are in wide use in virtuall all other manufacturing industries. The high-tech industry is really no better or no worse than the automobile industry, the home-appliance industry, the toy industry, or the chemical industry on which all of these depend. The real lesson here is that we need to clean up the way we build and power everything from lawn mowers to compact discs.
that the Intel disco-clean-room-dancers are gonna die from cancer?
beacuse your an idiot and you didn't made the link realitive.
Should read:
Because you're an idiot and you didn't made the link absolute.
Amanda Hawes of San Jose, Calif., has represented semiconductor employees in Silicon Valley in workers' compensation complaints, but not in lawsuits. She is married to the leader of a group known as the Silicon Valley Toxics Coalition.
Electronic News (1991), August 25, 1997 v43 n2182 p31(1)
His name is Ted Smith.
And to think I worked there.
"According to the February 1998 suit filed in Santa Clara County Superior Court, IBM maintained an internal "corporate mortality file," a database detailing the deaths of more than 25,000 IBM workers nationwide. Of 10,331 employees who died between 1975 and 1989, 149 died of primary brain cancer, the lawsuit states, citing a 1995 study sponsored in part by the company. That's 10 brain cancer deaths a year at IBM, a startlingly high number for such a rare disease."
This part is really scary though. I never did like IBM or any other big corporation for that matter.
Nathaniel P. Wilkerson
NPS Internet Solutions, LLC
www.npsis.com
Nathaniel P. Wilkerson
www.haidacarver.com
I seem to remember a previous thread on a similar subject on /. a few months ago. It's getting a bit like usenet these days... the same threads/subjects popping up.
Getting back on topic, I think it does go to show that no matter how much you research the products you buy, whether that's a pair of trainers or a computer, you can never be entirely sure that the company concerned doesn't have any skeletons in it's cupboard. Although that said, this particular article is a little bit patchy in places.
M.
Ah yes, after the caring-sharing 90's we really need the ignorant-intolerant-00's don't we?
It's not big; and it's not clever - do you actually think there's any more justification as labelling transvestites as freaks than any other group?
geeks
jocks
redheads
Oh no! - then there's
people with coloured skin (they're not like me!)
people with/without a religion
all those people with sexual organs that aren't like mine - freaks!
Wake the fuck up.
Guess what - freaks have feelings too, and they're just as (un)important as yours.
not my especially best wishes,
Mike
Tales from behind the Lagom Curtain
Im not shure if I got the name right, but when you heat a circuit board to about 170 degrees celcus a gas is released that has proven health risks, and that is viewed as the "New Asbestos". People who work in soldering cricuitry are brething this gas, and are getting problems with their nervous system.
Remember A Civil Action? Woburn is the site of lots of new high-tech construction, and Burlington is almost as bad. Heavy metals are probably the worst threat, but there doesn't appear to be any research available to the public.
The accepted construction method is to "seal off" the contaminated material in place by putting a thick sheet of plastic down before starting construction. Oddly shaped building are a rule because they have to build on top of existing foundations - any further digging would disturb the waste underneath.
Massachusetts techies: ask your company about the potential hazards of your site. Then decide what risks you find acceptable.
Sure there are bad things that are used in the process of making computer equipment. How does that fit into the bigger scheme of things? We all know that the airline industry is a huge polluter... so if the information age allows more people to video conference and distribute data without having to use cars and airplanes to get from point to point. Then maybe we are coming out ahead. I can't prove that, but, I would assume that would be the case. It seems that we would have to pour a lot of toxins out of these plants to make up for what the Jets spew out everyday.... When it comes to environmental problems, people should go out and pick up trash in their own neighborhood before they go out and tell everybody else what to do and not to do! :-)
Dihydrogen monoxide (DHMO) is colorless, odorless, tasteless, and kills uncounted thousands of people every year. Most of these deaths are caused by accidental inhalation of DHMO, but the dangers of dihydrogen monoxide do not end there.
Prolonged exposure to its solid form causes severe tissue damage. Symptoms of DHMO ingestion can include excessive sweating and urination, and possibly a bloated feeling, nausea, vomiting and body electrolyte imbalance. For those who have become dependent, DHMO withdrawal means certain death.
Dihydrogen monoxide:
* is also known as hydroxyl acid, and is the major component of acid rain.
* contributes to the greenhouse effect.
* may cause severe burns.
* contributes to the erosion of our natural landscape.
* accelerates corrosion and rusting of many metals.
* may cause electrical failures and decreased effectiveness of automobile brakes.
* has been found in excised tumors of terminal cancer patients.
Contamination Is Reaching Epidemic Proportions!
Quantities of dihydrogen monoxide have been found in almost every stream, lake, and reservoir in America today. But the pollution is global, and the contaminant has even been found in Antarctic ice. DHMO has caused millions of dollars of property damage in the Midwest, and recently California. Despite the danger, dihydrogen monoxide is often used:
* as an industrial solvent and coolant.
* in nuclear power plants.
* in the production of Styrofoam.
* as a fire retardant.
* in many forms of cruel animal research.
* in the distribution of pesticides. Even after washing, produce remains contaminated by this chemical.
* as an additive in certain junk-foods and other food products.
Companies dump waste DHMO into rivers and the ocean, and nothing can be done to stop them because this practice is still legal.
The impact on wildlife is extreme, and we cannot afford to ignore it any longer!
The Horror Must Be Stopped!
The American government has refused to ban the production, distribution, or use of this damaging chemical due to its importance to the economic health of this nation. In fact, the navy and other military organizations are conducting experiments with DHMO, and designing multi-billion dollar devices to control and utilize it during warfare situations. Hundreds of military research facilities receive tons of it through a highly sophisticated underground distribution network. Many store large quantities for later use.
It's Not Too Late!
Act *now* to prevent further contamination. Find out more about this dangerous chemical. What you don't know can hurt you and others throughout the world. Send e-mail to no_dhmo@circus.com or a SASE to:
Coalition to Ban DHMO
211 Pearl St.
Santa Cruz CA 95060
-- What you do today will cost you a day of your life.
A report that shows infant mortality dropping by half in the vicinity of nuclear reactors after their shutdown has just been released. See the story here. Again, in light of the historical activities of corporations when it comes to safety & profits, this is not surprising.
Basically, companies in a capitalist system will always place profit ahead of worker's health. Go read your history books. The only way to prevent this and insure worker safety involves two things: goverment regulation and oversight, and worker organization. Coal mining, making steel, railroads, have all been through this before. Go look up the mortality rates for railroad workers in the early 1900's before they started striking en masse for reform.
Reform for worker's health will only come at the initiative of organized workers. Capitalism just plain doesn't give a shit because the capital-owning class doesn't put their bodies at risk. If you want a starting place for the history of this sort of thing, try Howard Zinn's A People's History of the United States .
I've seen quite a bit of crap in these replies. It really disturbs me that so many people, who rely on this equipment for their livelihood, are ready to dismiss any possibility that even a small percentage of this is true. What if that article was only 25% accurate -- what if only 25% of the people in the fabrication industry really did get deathly ill because of they're work in this industry? What if only 10%?
Isn't that enough?
Like everyone who reads here, I make my living off of the fabrication folks' work. I couldn't work in my job -- I couldn't post here -- without them.
And guess what --- neither can any of you naysayers.
Do you, the naysayers, want to hide from the POSSIBILITY OF A FACT that your life might be dependent upon the risks to the safety and life of others? Have the strength of character and the integrity to find out and if it is true. Then do something about it. Do not cower under the whiny postings that this is a scare tactic of Luddites.
You don't have to believe in karma as a cosmic force to understand that sh** come back to haunt you and that one day we will indeed reap what we have sown.
I don't yet know how much of this article is true. But I am, for myself, going to find out.
------------------------------
waiting for the burn...
Do you know what kind of cannisters these were? ;)
:)
All I know is that a 55 gallon drum of nitric acid sitting around in a non-containment setting is a little crazy. I remember playing with this acid (as well as HCl) in high school. Not the safest thing in the world but teenagers don't always adhere to the rules. From what I can remember, the concentrated nitric acid (both liquids, btw) didn't leave black spots on my arm when they were "accidentally" dripped on me with a rubber stopper, nor did I fall over dead from sniffing the bottle.
(No, I'm not a "sniffer!" I just wanted to know what it smelled like...not exactly the brightest thing in the world but curiosity is a weakness at times
Although I have a shirt that tells the tale all too well of the effects of conc. HCl and conc. HNO3 (IIRC) on clothing.
Of course, I don't know if they have to keep these containment drums highly pressurized for etching procedures or what, but there are government regulations for the proper handling of chemical (you've seen the 4-colored signs with the numbers signifying severity, right?). This also goes for working in the presence of these hazardous materials. It seems to me highly stupid (of the company) that people would be walking around without the appropriate protective gear. OSHA(I believe) would be on this company for a breach of safety something fierce.
If I'm mistaken, do let me know.
-Vel
The "bunny suits" really are just to protect the electronics from the workers, not the other way around. They are typically made of very light material, like Tyveck, a cheap platicised paper product, or a bi-layer plastic film. Tri-cloroethylene, acetone, HF, HNO3 will all go through most of these materials in less than a second. Cloth suits offer no protection at all. A full facemask filter, a "gasmask", only offers a 50 to 100 times safety margin (if it fits and the person knows how to use it). For chemical exposure, that's nothing. A facemask might allow you a couple of minutes of exposure, rather than a second or two. Gasmasks are for escape, not for long-term use.
Level A spill response for a fab, the first-in people, calls for a full-body, sealed butyl-rubber suit (~1/4" thick) with a self-contained, overpressure air supply. The full suits with air give you a couple of hours in most environments. If there's radionuclear sources present, as there are in some fabs, all bets are off. In that case, you send in a robot. Alternatively, you cover the place with concrete and cross you fingers....
Workers generally vastly over-rate their protective equipment. Most employers provide the bare minimums (or less) and then these are usually only to be used for escape during an emergency, not (usually) for chronic exposure. Anybody in an environment that hasn't been trained and isn't properly paranoid about the chemicals they are using is a nutbar. Avoid them if you can. On the bright side, you usually don't have to plan retirement parties for these people either.
Some reference sites:
The US Govt. Hazmat site
and what should be every spill responder's bible:
The NIOSH Pocket Guide to Chemical Hazards
Kind Regards,
Kind Regards,
Bruce
Computing devices now consume 15% of the electrical
energy in the USA.
I designed the HTML-based system which lists all the cancer-causing agents onsite and warns ALL EMPLOYEES of what they're working with. This is done, and has been done, in accordance with CA Prop65. These suits are faulted because the employees are strongly encouraged to review this information. In fact, I trained the day and the night shift myself several years ago on how to access this informaiton. I live near the site of the old Fairchild plant. It stood for years after it was vacated because no one wished to own the chemical rights to the land.... There is now a shopping center on the site. My younger brother suffered from mild birth defects and glandular disorders due to water poisoning at the time my mother carried him here in SJ - Fairchild was to blame. Yet, oddly, he is now a CS major and working the summer at a tech firm. He knows the risks, and knows how to avoid them. And he doesn't blame anybody for his situation.
I'd rather have someone respond than be modded up.
Your grasp of logic leaves a bit to be desired. Let's try reversing the argument:
"Bowie J. Poag is a bigot with a serious persecution complex about VA Linux -- therefore, all work that he produces must be crap and should be ignored."
Just b/c I don't agree with you, and think you need to get the hell over your issues with VA, doesn't mean that your work is automatically crap.
I read this article in dead tree form a few days ago after arriving in San Francisco for my new job.
I find myself wondering how much of this article is based on objective fact, and how much is based on biased editorialism and sloppy research.
In just a week of reading the local papers, I've noticed, in the editorial sections at least, a good deal of outright hostility towards computer geeks in general. But just by virtue of moveing here, I've , according to the Guardian, gone from being a slacker-punk-computer-geek to being a predatory yuppie scum.
Why, I don't know. I can only guess that the editors, and some of the writers/letters to the ed readers/writers have never matured past their assinine little high school we-hate-the-computer-nerds cliques. Either that, or they just have such a liberal bias (SF *IS* known as a VERY liberal area after all) that they hate anyone who might ever become sucessful in life... and let's face it, out profession is potentially very profitable. Oh well. At least most of the PEOPLE I've met so far (as opposed to journalists) haven't shown themselves to hate computer geeks.
I've gotten a little off-topic here, but I think it *IS* very important to remember the anti-geek bias in the Guardian when you're reading about them trashing geeks and the computer industry.
If you haven't had HASMAT training, you'd be quite suprised at how many substances, common in everyday life, are considered hazardous/toxoc/carginogenic/etc if used in the workplace.
*The bleach you use in your toilet or to clean your whites...
*The gasoline you use to fuel your car...
*The windex you clean your glass with...
Each and every one of these is considered a hazardous/toxic material by OSHA. And each one requires a MSDS to be on hand if used in the workplace.
And MSDS's are VERY conservative. If there's the slightest chance of an adverse effect at ANY concentration, you are warned about it. Chlorine, for instance, has a good half page or so dealing with it's irritant/toxic qualities at concentrations you'd find in a swimming pool!
I find it quite hard to beleive that tech workers were cast into toxic conditions completely ignorant of the risks and unable to take any precautions.
john
Imagine all the people...
No offense, but what a load of bull. Just because any particular offeneder isn't the worst of the pack should not exclude it from being responsible. Should we give AIDs a break since cancer is still the number one killer? Should we not pursue bank robbers till we have solved all murders? This is just a really specious argument. Cars are targets in many enviromental articles. Do you think that slashdot should have also included links to articles about car pollution and car manufacturing pollution? Then we could call this Slashdot/RoadWeek, just like the CNN/Time thing on Sunday nights.
Points for this article being here and being relevant.
a) this is a site catering to techgeeks and Silicon Valley is a psuedo-mecca of geekdom
b) it concerns the production of the A#1 item that links most stories here, computers.
c) the audience actually has a chance of making a differnce in this situation.
d) if the audience decides to not make a differnce, it is more well informed about the moral situation it is perpetuating.
e) this is an excellent topic for discussion and scrolling through the posts you find many links to further information
So, in conclusion, let me say; recycle all the computers and computer parts you can. They caused a lot of pollution to make, get as much use out of them as possible. Be concious of EnergyStar and other enviromental pluses when deciding on a computer. Saving the world through Open Source is great, lets also be able to say we kept the water clean, the air breathable, and never have to tell our grandchildren 'reindeer are not just the mythical steed of CorporateSanta, but once were real animals.'
USA-Democracy is 270 million YESes and NOes a day, not one every four years.
I can never remember this so perhaps you can remind me. Which is the proper way to dilute acid?
Pour water into the acid or the acid into the water? I keep thinking its the second.
-Vel