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Los Alamos Lab: We're OK, You're OK
The fires which have been burning as a result of what was intended to be a controlled burn hit Los Alamos, site of the renowned National Laboratory, especially hard. Some have questioned the safety of the lab after this trauma; In addition to being the research site for the first atomic bomb, Los Alamos has remained an important lab for top-secret technology. It's also the site of the nation's 'only active plutonium facility.' According to an AP story, the lab thought that letting reporters tour the facility was the best way to defuse fears that the fires had brought a risk to public health. Hope they're right.
43 Square Mile lab? This is crazy. 2 hour tour for a 43 mile lab and they're not hiding anything.. right.
Here's a way to get rid of those pesky reporters.....
Just kidding.
Switch the . and the @ to email me.
Wow, with a fire hitting a place with PLUTONIUM, I'm afraid that I'll get killed by some RADIATION! How will I know?!? Oh wait... I'll get out my own GEIGER COUNTER! It clicked! AAAH! RADIATION! I'M GONNA DIE!!!
Seriously people, let's try to avoid the "it's radioactive and it's so bad" FUD today.
I have seen the future, and it is inconvenient.
At least get the name right timothy. It's called Los Alamos.
I heard Microsoft had secret headquarters in Los Alamos.
Actually, I just took a class in Nuclear Engineering, we concentrated a lot on the public's fear of nuclear facilities. The public is completely ill-informed when it comes to anything nuclear. People fear that waste will get spread around-the waste is stored in steel containers that can survive a train hitting them plus being doused in jet fuel and lit on fire (I saw a film of it.) Everyone always talks about Three Mile Island happening again: The radiation released to the public from TMI was less than the radiation the public got from their houses on that day. I think the government needs to develop a program to educate people on exactly how safe nuclear power is-France is 80% powered by it, but we haven't built a plant in 10 years because the public is ignorant.
Colin Winters
Well, the tour seems like a reasonable first step. The detractor though at the end of the article has a good point as well.
/..
It would be nice if the officials at the lab could reveal some technical information about the fire and the dangers that it posed so that third-party experts could review it and hopefully allay public fears.
BTW, glad to see this on
"Hey... don't be mean." --Buckaroo Banzai
if it did hit the lab.. the entire southwest could glow in the dark :-)
*Not a Sermon, Just a Thought
*/
This loss or even the mere existance of the fire may scare away some of these reaserchers and thus cause a loss of results from the lab, and a lower moral. Something im sure the US government does not want.
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As a former employee of Los Alamos, I would like to point out the lab is LOS ALAMOS (not Las - as stated repeatedly in the story intro). I don't mind typos, especially in user comments. However, the story intros should at least be minimally proofread.
Or am I out of the loop and Las is the new hip way to talk about the lab?
Eagerly awaiting (-1: offtopic).
Having once worked at a National Lab (PNNL, operated by Battelle) I can say that if LANL is anything like where I worked, they're not lying. Nuclear material is handled very carefully and a forest fire is the least of their worries.
There are other issues with the Natl labs (namely, national security) that aren't all that great - but I don't think fire is going to be a problem.
(yes, I was certified as a level 1 rad worker, and no it wasn't my main focus - I was a computer tech who had to go into rad zones from time to time. if you think an old Quadra 605 is slow now, it feels ten times as slow when you're surrounded by geiger counters and have a quota as to how long you would be allowed to stay there)
- Jeff A. Campbell
- VelociNews (http://www.velocinews.com)
- Jeff
Under the right circumstances, Plutonium can burn. See the DOE handbook for details.
Mea navis aericumbens anguillis abundat
"This is an attempt to show you we are not hiding anything," said Gene Habiger, director of security and emergency response for the Department of Energy. "If anyone thinks the government, the Department of Energy, can suppress the truth, they're wrong."
Press members were then given instructions on how to properly seal their BioHazard suits and what to do if the Radiation badge turned red.
Hammer of Truth
Controlled burns are relatively safe if done under the right conditions. In many arid environments, it is normal for natural fires to periodically burn off the accumulated brush and other fuel. This is much less damaging than tearing up everything with a bulldozer.
Mea navis aericumbens anguillis abundat
If you check out this DOE site http://www.em.doe.gov/bemr96/lanl.html you will find an extensive listing of the many cleanups they have going under way at Los Gatos.
Things that come to mind are:
Plants tend to metabolize the hazardous materials in the soil. These plants are now being converted into smoke.
The contaminated soil that is now being dried out by the fire, and dust being swept up into the air.
Casually checking out the page link given I come up with these goodies [there is LOTS more]:
Apparently alot of testing was also open air, especially in the early days, before they knew better, or cared much (take your pick).
"It is a greater offense to steal men's labor, than their clothes"
Fortunately, all the top secret stuff was burnt to a crisp before the reporters got there.
The CANDU reactor, the primary form of nuclear power, is widespread in Canada. It is quite efficient, and runs on unrefined Uranium (as the refining process is often quite expensive/dangerous, as was seen in Tokyo). It is quite safe, as it is physically incapable of operating without coolant, so it shuts down instead of overheating. It also produces weapons grade plutonium as its primary byproduct. There's the problem. See what technology they'd like?
Perhaps your weren't aware, that these fires prevent fires, as odd as that may seem. They burn materials in order to prevent widespread forest fires. Unfortunately, this one didn't go to well. These controlled burns are routine though... just because you hear about it burning down an area.. doesn't mean it's "incredibily stupid".
Reporters don't want to trek through 43 square miles, and plus most of the stuff is classified beyond requiring a press pass. If you were a reporter, would you want a 15 hour tour through a bunch of (to you) science geeks' offices just to see what could have been shown to you in 2 hours, or for that matter 30 minutes? Plus, if there was an accident, it would have been in a classified section (the nuclear research/test sites/reactors & stuff are all classified to prevent sabotage from visitors/terrorists), so the reporters wouldn't have seen it even if they had walked for three days straight.
43 acres and a 2 hour tour. Sounds like Gilligan's Island to me. (Sung to Gilligan's Island theme): Well just sit right back and you'll hear a tale. A tale of fateful fire. That was started by some Interior guys who weren't all to wise. The weather was mighty dry, the bushes sure burned hot. If not for the courage of the firefighters, the plutonium would be lost.
Romanes eunt domus? People called Romanes, they go the 'ouse? It says Romans go home. No it doesn't. What's Latin fo
If something goes wrong at the labs, everyone dies, and then your concerns for their safety and mental stability don't count for very much.
It's right that the top priority for now is the lab's integrity. Get the people out of immediate danger. Then worry about the rest.
As it was, the lab's presence was only coincidental. The fire could have happened anywhere. The lab itself had nothing to do with the fires except that it happened to be sitting in their path. However, it does pose a potential threat to the safety of the city; now that the fires are out it is the biggest potential threat. Therefore, it's much better that this threat is taken care of. There will be time to care for the people when the lab's integrity is assured. Your concern is admirable, but it doesn't do any good if they all die because something went wrong in the lab.
As big as this fire was, it still did not clear out all the debris lying on the forest floor. New Mexico's forests have been protected for the last 150 years and its only recently that fires have been allowed to burn.
Its only recently that forest managers realized that forest fires are a somewhat regular occurence neccesary to clean out the debris and allow trees to be properly spaced by killing off weaker trees. If you take a look at tree rings from a really old tree you can see a regular pattern of fire and then this big gap when our forest service actively fought forest fires.
Unfortunately, we cant just get rid of the debris overnight, so regular, perhaps even aggressive, controlled burning is necessary. The debris left behind from 150 years of fire control may prove to be a big problem if we continue to have record hot summers(due to global warming, but that's another story).
The Albuquerque Journal is a great reference for donations, BTW, as the entire city of Los Alamos had to be evacuated, about 500 homes were destroyed(out of a population of 11,000) so there are many people are in need.
No, Thursday's out. How about never - is never good for you?
Yes, it is, and it was a major producer of the U.S. plutonium stockpile. Hanford is in Eastern Washington, which isn't terribly close to Microsoft (5 - 6 hour drive). It IS close to the Columbia river, and they have leaked radioactive material into there in the past.
Nuclear power IS risky, and there is no long term solution to waste disposal (yet). Fast breeder reactors, and breeder/burners are one potential solution. But there is great paranoia about diversion of Pu-239 to terrorists. A fast breeder (in a nutshell) can produce Pu-239 (fissionable) from U-238 (waste).
A burner is a little different. This is used to deliberately break large isotopes into smaller ones with shorter half lifes. The U.S. Congress has cancelled most funding for advanced reactor programs, although the DOE's Argonne National Lab still does some research.
Considering some of the half-lifes of certain isotopes (Pu-239 has a half life of 24,000 years or so), just burying it seems to be a ridiculous proposition. I'd much rather see funding put into burner programs which can take care of this waste in a more responsible fashion.
Just my $.02
SEAL
This sounds almost religious. You claim that those who have studied it have been 'brainwashed' by the heathens. You claim that the [religious] public can never be wrong. Yes, it is right to burn heathens at the stake. It couldn't be that we're ill-informed; It must be THEIR fault.
How many times has the public been wrong on some religious craze.. From power lines cause cancer (300 million spent, on a rumor), to breast implants (billions in lawsuits, and no evidence), to expelling students for wearing smelly aftershave. (Yes, this happened a couple of weeks ago.) These are such critical dangers that we must be protected from. The public can't be wrong in protecting us from smelly aftershave!
Here's a clue: EVERYTHING is dangerous. It's just a matter of degree.. Burning coal for electicity puts more radioactivity into the air than nuclear power does. Oil tankers can run aground. Refineries can blow up. Flying cross-country once a week give you the equivalent radiation of 10 whole-body X-rays a year.
You can't religiously claim that forbidding the use of fire is right, just because it could accidently burn down your neighborhood.
Nuclear energy is just another kind of fire, the fire of the burning atom trying to turn itself into iron.
Sure, it's risky. What isn't? What you need to do to make that into a useful statement is to quantify the risk, and compare it to other power generation activities.
Coal mining cuts short the lives of thousands of miners. There are thousands of natural gas explosions every year, yet we have it piped into our houses. Air pollution from fossil fuel burning plants are responsible for the death of over ten thousand people in the US per year. Hydroelectric dams are very dangerous to construct, and occasionally they burst. Furthermore, the risk of global warming due primarily to fossil fuel burning is a tremendously large one for the future.
The primary reason that nuclear power isn't successful in America is its cost.
It's Los Alamos. Not Las Alamos.
Los is masculine, while Las is feminine. Alamos is a masculine noun. (You can tell because it ends in "o".)
I agree nuclear power is not perfect. However, neither is burning coal. Since you are so opposed to nuclear power, maybe you could enlighten us to what we should be doing instead to generate electricity?
Maybe if the *perfect* solution doesn't come along, we should just use the *best* one.
The Federal Government should pay the damages to the citizens. Believe it or not, this is not yet something they've agreed to do.
Then, because federal government money is yours and mine, everyone in the administration should be fired, and the entire department should be dismantled and rebuilt with congressional oversight. It should be tightly supervised for the next decade or so.
None of this will happen, and the people who've lost their houses will be told 'tough shit'. They will be lucky to get the cost of their homes back. Insurance companies will be left holding the bag. They will be forced to raise rates, and the people who should have paid for this disaster in the first place will end up paying for it anyway, while the Government gets off scot-free.
Of course, I hope I'm wrong.
[...] the migration of VC from PVC is essentially zero. It is bad to manufacture though.
So, let me get this straight. Greenpeace hates PVC because its bad to manufacture, so they tell everyone its poisonous to wear.
Greenpeace hates leather because it comes from dead cattle.
Greenpeace (presumably) hates rubber, because its a petroleum product.
Damn! You've just about eliminated everything my dominatrix wears. Whats a guy with a kinky fetish or two to do in a brave new green world where we can't eat meat or wear PVC?
The Future of Human Evolution: Autonomy
That's only partly right. The Earth gets hit by large gamma burst every couple of months or so. Sure the van allen belts provide shielding but some still gets through. You're getting hit by high energy muons from cosmic showers all the time.
Gamma rays are somewhat nasty but they aren't that bad. I've worked with several gamma sources like Co57, Co60, Cs137, P37 (122KeV - ~1.3MeV) as well as a Pu238/Be neutron howitizer and personally I worry more about the neutrons than the gammas. Alphas and betas are usually stopped by thin layers of clothing or even your skin. As long as they stay outside your body you're fine. If they get inside then you have pronblems. Gammas will usually compton scatter and leave without many interactions so they aren't that bad. Neutrons will probably plow through your molecules and dump most/all their energy since there are so many hydrogens within your body.
Btw, I done some experiments on cross sections of gamma rays of various energies and a 122 KeV gamma has something like a 50% chance of getting through 32cm(~16 inches) of aluminum and a 30% chance of getting through 32cm of iron. This is just low energy gammas, several radioactive decays will provide gammas with 10 or more times the energy. So unless your brick house has a thick lining of steel (~1-2m) or lead (~.5m), you aren't getting any protection fromt the walls.
"When you sit with a nice girl for two hours, it seems like two minutes. When you sit on a hot stove for two minutes, it
Besides, all the locals here that know anything about that labs are dying laughing. There was never any danger to any nuclear materials. The bunkers that they are in are far underground and in completely fireproof caverns with fire buffers around them. To top it off, the bunkers are built to withstand a direct hit from a 747. If you'd like some more info on the fires though, check out our local news coverage at www.abqjournal.com or www.kobtv.com.
kwsNI
Considering the popularity of Slashdot, you'd think the authors should know at least a little bit about proper journalism. Come on guys, have some respect for your readers, for crying out loud. When you make mistakes, 'fess up. Give credit where credit is due. Don't make your readers with better grammar than you look like idiots.
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Chris DiBona
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Grant Chair, Linux Int.
Pres, SVLUG
Co-Editor, Open Sources
Open Source Program Manager, Google, Inc.
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On a similar point when Chernobyl 'sprung a leak' I was at university at Aberdeen (in Scotland). Some high ups in one of the departments decided to take one of their geiger counters outside the department and check the radiation levels (being built of granite the background in Aberdeen is about 4x UK norm).
When they got out they switched on the detector and the needle nailed itself to the top of the meter. It was not until they were back inside (a transition that occurred very quickly indeed) that they noticed they had not a Geiger-Muller tube (for detecting radioactive particles) in the detector but a scintillation detector which counts very weak light pulses. History does not record exactly how stupid they felt.
Gamma Testing - Where testing is extended to the full user community (AKA Shipping the Program)