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Interview/Article On John "Maddog" Hall
mister_nate sent us a really cool interview with Jon "Maddog" Hall. I've said this before, but Maddog is the perfect Linux advocate. A lot of Slashdot readers (and I definitely include myself in this statement) can learn a lot by watching the way Jon handles Linux Advocacy. It's amazing.
Maybe we should really call it GNU/Penguin/Linux
Want to work at Transmeta? MicronPC? Hedgefund.net? AT&T?
Can your IM do this?
I met maddog in the airport after Comdex '99 in Las Vegas. He likes Sam Adams, so if you have the chance, buy him that. He put away two tall glasses of it. :)
Wow. Whoever modded that up must be smokin' that $2 streetcorner crack...
=-=-=
An interesting guy...
You explained in a most clear way WHY most 'advocates' just kill the product they evangelize. A good advocate should convince people with cold hard facts, theory and reason. Not with insults. The insults from most Linux 'advocates' (I call them zealots) made me whipe linux off every harddisk here in the company. I don't want to be called a 'Linux User' when the average IT-Joe understands that a 'Linux User' is a bigmouth-lowIQ.
Thankfully there are also a lot of reasonable people among Linux users. I truely hope for them the bigmouths will quiet down.
Otis, IQ:152
--
Never underestimate the relief of true separation of Religion and State.
You might be confused because the article mentions a John Hall and stresses that our hero is a different person. Jon, not John.
I am. Problem?
I strongly believe that trying to be clever is detrimental to your health. -- Linus Torvalds
"In hardware, there's slippage. A one-ohm resister is never exactly one ohm. . . . I like the logic of software. When you make a mistake, it's your fault," he said.
.oO0Oo.
Except when it's someone elses
remember FDIV?
There are places where the networks are not touching,and there are places where they are-Boeing's Lori Gunter
Larry Ellison and Oracle are the developers of the Open Source package called Vapourware. Microsoft, in the past, has tried to steal their concepts, but Ellison, as the true pioneer in the field of FUD and Vapourware still 'owns' the market.
Oracle is starting a Linux distribution, called Miracle Linux, in Japan. Whether the community will get any contribution from it remains to be seen.
He may be an advocate, but he can't write worth shit.
Satisfied?
(Yeah, I know, I shouldn't feed the trolls, but blatant lies or factual errors always pisses me off)
GNU/Linux. The Freshmaker.
What the hell!?! Where's the Leinenkugel?
I've been convinced for some time that there are parallels between the growth of Linux and the growth Microbrews (Domestic Specailty beer to be accurate). People tend to focus on growth rate (there are 40% more Linux users this year than there were last year) than on overall Market share growth. I suspect Linux could get a hold on the desktop and grow until it gets to about 10% market share - then market share growth will drop like a rock.
I'm a brewer/programmer. I started Ravens Ridge Brewing in Fairbanks AK - the second oldest brewery in the state. I also work as a programmer - the product isn't as much fun but the work environment is good and it pays better. I must say that in "zeal for their product" beer geeks and Linux geeks are very much alike.
There are some differences so this parallel may not be perfect. Linux is free (or very inexpensive), domestic specialty beer commands a higher price. The government has punished large breweries enough that they check their dirty monopolist tendincies. How many people think Micro$oft is going to get a penalty like "You can't sell any software for 16 years, then we're going to regulate the holy snot out of you and you're going to pay tax on every box of software you send out the door"? Anhiser-Busch, Miller, and Coors are all quite freindly to small brewers. There not angels - Auggie if you read slashdot I know you have two of my kegs and I'd like them back.
Brewers are well respected by their communittees. They've been working at this for 5500+ years. Is there something that your LUG can do to serve your town? Jon maddog Hall has done some good works - I'm glad karma paid him back for all those students he fed.
Jon, if you have openings at you college let me send you a case of my Vitea.
All generalizations are false, including this one. Mark Twain
Meow!
Rabid indeed! Perhaps the interviewer needs to be put down? I'd recommend at least quarantine and observation for a fortnight!
Meow!
Yes, that's really my e-mail. Don't change a thing.
The interviewer seems to have C and Unix confused... after this glaring error, everything else in the article is very suspect!
"Freedom means freedom for everybody" -- Dick Cheney
Actually, it used RSX, RSTS, and VAX-VMS, which most of the DECUS software was written for. Digital Unix was an afterthought, and a poor implementation at that. Fortunately (for DEC), the good folks at Berkely used the VAX as the reference implementation of BSD Unix, or Digital would have gone down the tubes even sooner.
"Freedom means freedom for everybody" -- Dick Cheney
Is that the Check Republic or Slovakia ?
Czechoslovakia doesn't exist anymore.
--= Isn't it surprising how badly I spell ?
Actually, it used RSX, RSTS, and VAX-VMS, which most of the DECUS software was written for. Digital Unix was an afterthought, and a poor implementation at that.
Just in the interests of keeping everyone fully informed, DEC's Unix-like OS for the VAX was Ultrix. "Ultrix is amazingly customizable; you have to replace two-thirds of it just to get anything to work!"
Digital UNIX (formerly OSF/1 and now Compaq Tru64) is for the Alpha line, and is actually one of the better commercial Unixes, IMNSHO.
dragonhawk@iname.microsoft.com
I do not like Microsoft. Remove them from my email address.
Article: ... Torvalds adopted a General Public License that said anybody could copy his code, change...
thinthief: Let's get our facts right! They are obviously referring to the GPL...
It is called the General Public License. Read it yourself:
http://www.gnu.org/copyleft/gpl.html
"GNU Public License" is technically incorrect.
dragonhawk@iname.microsoft.com
I do not like Microsoft. Remove them from my email address.
With Jon Hall having New Hampshire's (I presume, the article doesn't explicitly say)...
Yes, maddog's Jeep is registered in NH.
FYI, Bruce Dawson [jbd at codemeta dot com] has LINUX in NH. An image of his plate appears on the "Linux License Plate" T-shirts you see at Linux shows and such. The "Live Free or Die" motto is most appropriate.
dragonhawk@iname.microsoft.com
I do not like Microsoft. Remove them from my email address.
>This is simply not true. When I was a little geek with my Amiga, me and my friends used to speculate
>what this fabled UNIX, Internet and TCP/IP was all about. There was no way a small time
>enthousiast could access a UNIX system outside of academia or business until Linux came along.
Almost.
There were Unix like operating systems around. While something like Xenix was rather expensive,
it wasn't totally out of everyone's reach - but there were other alternatives.
There was (R.I.P) a version of Unix from Mark Williams Company called Coherent. It wasn't a
complete implementation of Unix, alot of the networking side was missing, but what was there
was extremely good. The manual was worth the cost alone - the best book on Unix I've ever seen.
It cost only US$200, and it existed before Linux. It had a good version of UUCP - the only way to
get on to the internet via dialup in the old days.
For sure, it was the best version of Unix I ever ran on my '286 with 1M of RAM.
In fact, I only switched to Linux (about 10 disks with version 0.99) after Coherent was being
dropped by MWC.
"The best part? I became an ordained minister while not wearing pants." -- CleverNickName
Very interesting, thanks for the info.
I was going under the false assumption that in order to get a *nix on x86, you need at least a 386 in protected mode to implement the user space/kernel space distinction and an MMU. I only entered the intel world with the 486 and don't know much about the older procesors.
...Now that I think of it, there was Minix too.
I strongly believe that trying to be clever is detrimental to your health. -- Linus Torvalds
Don't get me wrong. I really enjoyed watching Maddog introduce Linus at Comdex last November.
It was my first Comdex, and very exciting all around; mostly cuz of the huge Linux presence.
Maddog is a *big guy* -- I wish someone would put his height into the interviews.
Drinking can be fun, but I bet a lot of people out there know someone who has burn hurt or killed because things got out of control.
When your application dumps core, big deal. But if your brain skews while trying to navigate some tricky curve with friends in the car, well, it's a pretty sad thing.
There are many tragedies in life, be careful with booze. Too many students get in too much trouble with liquor. Don't let people drive when they've had too much, and don't be "ashamed" to take care of your friends. You might be saving a life...
Treatment, not tyranny. End the drug war and free our American POWs.
See my user info for links.
I was tested at 136, thankyouverymuch, and I run Windows 98.
I really think that that title "King Of Linux Advocates" ought to be reconsidered, considering that pissing people off with stuff like this doesn't get them running Linux. What it does do is get them pissed off and more determined to stick with Microsoft, or Apple, or whatever.
Open hand of friendship, not closed hand around a flamethrower's trigger.
-Jo Hunter
If we do not change our direction we are likely to end up where we are headed.
unix guru n. See John "maddog" Hall.
It's rare that you're presented with a knob whose only two positions are Make History and Flee Your Glorious Destiny.
How do you spell Hall's name?
...
According the article, it's option three, John with an 'H' and 'maddog' like a computer person's login name, all lowercase with no spaces.3.John 'maddog' Hall
Go back and read the article. His name/nickname is in the second paragraph - Jon "maddog" Hall, and in the eighth paragraph:
although he notes that he is a different person from the John Hall at VA Linux whose stock wealth once topped a billion dollars.
OK, I'll bite.
You've obviously known him for more than 10 years. I'm asking you for proof of your claims.
Yeah, I know... don't feed those who dwell under bridges. Still, I'd be fascinating if true.
BTW - THURSDAY is the big day here @ Stanford - the DMCA hearings are here at the Business School. Come raise your voice!!!
David E. Weekly
David E. Weekly
Code / Think / Teach / Learn
h4x0r for
IMHO posters to Slashdot should be able to create their own impromptu polls. So that in the post above, you'd actually be able to vote for the options and see the results, then post more comments on them.
It could get kinda stupid, but moderation will hopefully make sure that interesting or funny polls get moderated up, and stupid ones get moderated down.
What I'm thinking of is a new posting option, 'Minipoll', where you enter some XML into the comment submission box which Slashdot process and puts as a set of radio boxes inlined with your comment.
-- Ed Avis ed@membled.com
Happy now, yankeeboy?
--
Never underestimate the relief of true separation of Religion and State.
Bud sucks. but there is also the REAL Budweiser, from a place called Budweis in Tcheckoslovakia(sp?). Very good stuff. tastes quite a bit like Urquell. This is also the reason why there are countries where Bud is a trademark infringement. There is already a beer named Budweiser, Budweiser Budvar
//rdj
No one can understand the truth until he drinks of coffee's frothy goodness.
--Sheikh Abd-Al-Kadir, 1587
You probably turned it off in preferences.
Basically a bunch of us were at LinuxWorld and talked to him at the Linux International Booth, and told him what we were about. He offered to come and visit us, and we set up a date and time on the spot. If you can fit in his schedule (he does a LOT of travelling) then you could have something. He particularly likes it if you pay for all the beer, too. :-)
I've always wanted to track down who has UNIX as their license plate in all 50 states. I'm the person that has Georgia's, and I know that George Goble (aka GHG) has Indiana's. With Jon Hall having New Hampshire's (I presume, the article doesn't explicitly say), now I only have 47 more to track down!
At least mafia-owned pizzarias make excellent pizza. Compare to Bill Gates.
See the trend?
:)
I notice it moving away from Windows
Finkployd
Oh, the teases. I wanted to know more about the beer :-)
No matter how cynical you become, it's never enough to keep up.
According the article, it's option three, John with an 'H' and 'maddog' like a computer person's login name, all lowercase with no spaces. Rob decided that without a 'Hemos the Hamster' answer, though, he was still going to cause trouble and choose both options 2 and 3.
So vote today, and let's see how many new and unique ways we can come up with to torture this poor man's moniker.
BTW, I have nothing but respect for Hall and think that he is a Linux advocacy role model. Not only that, but he's single, so ladies, get in line for that man of your dreams.
...Vancouver, where MGM is filming a movie about an open-source hero battling a Pacific Northwest software monopoly
???
I can just see it now;
It's a deadly game of cat-and-mouse between a suave European programmer/secret agent and a dweeby billionare who's half-man, half-machine and bent on world domination at any cost. Linus Torvalds is... The Torvinator!!!
I think they should cast Tom Hanks as Linus and Quentin Tarantino as Bill Gates. But that's just me.
Netscape, sure, but what Open Source software has Oracle released? (I could just be uninformed, so feel free to enlighten me).
It's amazing how that article was able to allegedly cover the beginnings of the GNU/Linux movement, and *never* once mentioned the words "FSF", "Richard M. Stallman", or "GNU". The article makes it seem like Linus wrote the kernel, and all the rest of the GNU software kind of just 'appeared' out of thin air! I'm no FSF fanatic, but I think that RMS et al have a point. It's articles like this that make me think we should try to emphasize 'GNU/Linux' over just 'Linux'. And 'Free Software', rather than just 'Open Source'.
I'm terrified beyond all capacity for rational thought.
--
Editor Emeritus and Senior Writer, TeleRead.org
Anyone know where that shirt can be bought? I know of a few people who would love it (including me) :).
"What are your pet projects?"
1) Mouse support for vi
2) Making the world safe for pee cees
3) Petrefing household pets
4) Studing the Zen wisdom of CowboyNeal
"How many hours each day do you spend at work?"
1) 8
2) 10
3) 12
4) 23.5
What's your work space like?
1) Cubicle
2) Janitor closet 2.0
3) Basement ("Maybe I should burn the place down")
4) I decorate with a hand grenade..like it?
"(Number of Linux computers, number of computers without a case, number of Windows machines (and why), number of monitors, etc.)"
[I'll let the hungry masses fill in that one..]
How about favorite beers?
1) Bud
2) Coors
3) Anything German
4) Anything Microbrewed
5) Whatever CmdrTaco is ordering
And who says polls are getting stale!
"History doesn't repeat itself, but it does rhyme." Mark Twain
Indeed. I recently did the linux from scratch thing. 90% of what I downloaded came from gnu project stuff. RMS is not crazy for insisting on "GNU/linux". They reimplemented most of *nix, and gave it way. And that was the whole point. Fucking beautiful.
The Unix Guru appearance used to include having a small penis, but then everybody started wearing pants, and now who knows?
I may have to bite the interviewer on the leg for calling us that! (grrrh)
tangent - art and creation are a higher purpose
postmoderncore - art and creation are a higher purpose
I thought the article was severly lacking (check out the /. interview for many more interesting words from da man. A couple of blurbs from maddog, and several inacuracies in their relating of computer history, like:
:)
Unix became the system of choice for developers in the flowering of the microcomputer world, partly because much of it could be shared freely between programmers.
This is simply not true. When I was a little geek with my Amiga, me and my friends used to speculate what this fabled UNIX, Internet and TCP/IP was all about. There was no way a small time enthousiast could access a UNIX system outside of academia or business until Linux came along.
This is the real power of Linux to me. It brought the power and complexity of Unix to microcomputers at a *really* low price.
"People come up (at technology seminars) and say, 'It's just like it was back in the early days. This is the way Unix was 20 years ago, and it feels so good. Like something was ripped out of your body 20 years ago and now it's been put back,' " said Hall.
This blurb just made my day. I've read the jargon file, about the feats of the early Unix and internet gurus like Kernigham, Thompson, Vint Cerf, Bob Kahn etc. countless times, and I've always felt a like I had missed the real computer revolution, that it would only settle down from then on. Hearing this from a guy who's been there and seen it is just great. These are great times we live in
And I won't spare you with the funniest one I saw:
An ill-structured but worldwide community soon sprang up to write software tools and add-ons that would make Linux useful in the real world, creating a phenomenon so powerful that Microsoft has expressed concern about erosion of its Windows franchise.
ROFLMAO! Ooooh. They expressed concern. Imagine that, a couple hundred crazy bearded programming anarchists are out to create an OS the way they think it should be, giving it away for free and creating a vocal community around it. Some guys even manage to make money out of it. We damn better do something about that, right? Can't let all this unorderly creativity cut into our 5 year plan can we?
Hehe. (Sorry for the "rabid zealotry" at the end...)
I strongly believe that trying to be clever is detrimental to your health. -- Linus Torvalds
For maddog, DEC in the 80s must have been like being in purgatory... Ken Olson (the actual founder) always said that unix was "snake oil" and that VAX/VMS was the key. Ultrix (DEC's unix) was a second class citizen, underfunded and dissed by the top brass. Of course, Ken was wrong about a few other things, too...
there are 3 kinds of people:
* those who can count
there are 3 kinds of people:
* those who can count
* those who can't
I have never met someone who has told me there IQ and was not lying. I rest my case.
Its a bunch of RVs, yurts, tepees, and geodesic domes set up in a field...
Hadn't we both "GNU/Linux" and "Linux", as well as both "Open Source" and "Free Software", a lot more people would be missing the Indestructible Liberty ideal of FSF/RMS/GPL.
I have come to think that is the greatest achievement of OSI/ESR, not speeding up the Linux World Domination Project (LWDP).
I think, therefore thoughts exist. Ego is just an impression.
I was also disturbed by the term "General Public License." I'm surprised this thread is being moderated down, I find expurgation pretty offensive. Why not just go and edit an author's licensing terms out of his sources? Moderate me down, there's a difference between karma points and karma.
Does anyone have a list or better yet a URL of Jon's future appearances. I know he does a lot of speaking here and there, just wondering if anyone knew of one.
Thanks.
Just as importantly, Torvalds adopted a General Public License that said anybody could copy his code, change...
Woah There! Let's get our facts right! They are obviously referring to the GPL--did someone there not even bother to read a few slashdot posts?
They don't even GNU once. And people wonder why RMS is so stubbern.
http://overwhelmed.org
Three quarters of an hour is not exactly a long time - I've seen slower posts.
tangent - art and creation are a higher purpose
postmoderncore - art and creation are a higher purpose
He has the appropriate appearance of the Unix Guru (also shared by Alan Cox) with the long, full beard (universal symbol for wisdom and so forth).
This past spring John came and gave a lecture for the ACM Chapter at Bucknell University, which I run. He's was nothing short of incredible for the 2 days we spent with him. Very on-the-ball about everything, not to mention a really nice guy. He definately sees the bigger picture.
Pictures are available at http://penguinempire.n3.net
Most fun was going to the bar after the talk. The man drank us all under the table - and told the most interesting stories about various places throughout the world.
If you get a chance to meet him, make the effort.
or at least one of the two IT's that i'm thinking of. maddog is the type of guy i really want to be like. when kids talk about growing up...they say "i want to be a fireman, a policeman"
:) I want to be like these guys. I place maddog next to torvalds on my list of guys who "get it"...or who have actually done an incredible amount, not just for the linux community, or the open source community, but for the computer/internet community.
:P ) but they're the type of people you can't think of one bad thing to say about.
Personally. when i grow up (not for the next 30 years
That's not to say i think maddog or Linus are gods (that word is only reserved for Stephen Hawking
"uhhh...sir. we've traced all the AC/Natalie Portman posting back to some guy named hall's house in New Hampshire"
FluX
After 16 years, MTV has finally completed its deevolution into the shiny things network
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once." -David Hume
Hey, I can go for months without bathing or shaving, too, so when do I get my own band of Slashdot groupies?
Well, you're missing a few things:
First, and most important, is arrogance. You must wisely look down upon others with a benevolent sense of condescention. You can be rude, but make sure you let them know that you really are a nice person by uttering empty platitudes like, "I know you don't understand now, but trust me, eventually you will".
Beard. Gotta have a long-ass, unkempt beard.
Sandals. Big, ugly Birkenstocks.
Act like your stupid hobbies actually mean something, and feign righteous indignation when people say you are a bore. ie: "Well, obviously somebody of your mental capacity isn't going to understand the importance of Wiccan ritual!"
Yup, gotta be a Wiccan, or at least a techno-pagan. Claim allegiance to some "ages-old" mystical crap that has actually been conclusively traced back slightly less than 100 yrs.
Disengage from the real world. Best choice here is academia.
Buy a Miata. Try to convince people that it's a real sports car and that you are a real driver.
Talk extensively about that one time you were "totally wasted" at the Dead show and it gave you deep insight, but don't mention that it was the only time you ever did acid, or any drug, that it actually scared the living crap out of you and you spend the whole evening sniffing the ground and crying for a girlfriend who dumped you in 3rd grade.
Pretend you like, and know something about, jazz.
Play guitar, badly, in a really shitty band that has never performed for anybody other than themselves. Claim you just like to play, and don't care if nobody else likes it.
Well, I'm exhausted. Anybody else care to toss a few in?
Make up your mind. Do you want to favorite Bear or do you want to include Bud in the pole ? Hint: That's like asking about favorite aircraft and including the "F-150".
1) Red Stripe
2) Guinness
6) Heineken
--= Isn't it surprising how badly I spell ?
Slashdot readers (and I definitely include myself in this statement) can learn a lot by watching the way Jon handles Linux Advocacy. It's amaazing.
And hope they can learn something from the author, who either manages to poorly use the english language, or fails to conduct even shallow research.
DEC is big in the Unix world because its founders, Ken Thompson and Dennis Ritchie, developed a version that helped carry the company to its prominence in the 1980s
Ahem, Ken Olsen & snake oil?
Developed at Bell Labs in the late 1960s as a powerful but flexible system above grunt-level assembly language, Unix became the system of choice for developers in the flowering of the microcomputer world, partly because much of it could be shared freely between programmers.
Sure, as long as you don't count the first several versions of UNIX. Or AT&Ts licensing. BSD UNIX? What is that?
Articles like this that play fast and loose with the facts are a dis-service to the public.