Slashdot Mirror
Dell & IBM Both Shipping Linux
Several people noted that Red Hat is now partnering with Dell and offering
Red Hat as one of its strategic operating systems, as well as shipping Linux web/proxy boxes to Lexus and Toyota dealerships. But thats not all... Big Blue apparently is now shipping T20 Thinkpads with
Caldera and Star Office preloaded.
Ummm no actually the first thing management (read PHB) noticed was the "puuurty new colors" and those "kick ass screen savers" and those "kewl see through windows" and then they noticed how rock solid an operating system can be without micros~1 products on the computer.
___
BTW, if you really want *BSD, BeOS or Minix (There's gotta be one Minix fan out there) shipping...call your favourite OEM. Dell, Compaq... they don't hire psychics you know. If they perceive sales, they'll ship 'em... eventually.
On a vaguely-related note, my theory as to why OEM's haven't shipped a lot of pre-installed "alternative" OS's is that the Linux/*BSD/Minix crowd has a strong do-it-yerself rep. Why would OEM x ship Red Hat on their box when the customer is:
a) Probably not going to be swayed by the convenience factor, since convenience and ease-of-use ranks 47th or lower on a *nix user's priority list (or so the perception goes)
b) There are so many *nix brands out there that, chances are, they're not going to get a plurality of the users to make it worthwhile. Sure, they could ship RH, but 70% of the *nix users are geeks who would probably just uninstall it anyway so they could load the latest snap of Suse 42b4a2 that they compiled on the Beowulf cluster of palm pilots they've got in their garage. At least that's the perception from the OEM's point of view.
Last point... and really offtopic. I saw an ad last week for Compaq that said "24x7 Nonstop"... are they trying to tell me their computer will only run for one fucking week?? Sheesh!
2 1337 4 u!
Argh! Now that someone noticed it, I can as well make it official...
Resistance is futile. Slashdot will be assimilated.
Oops, no, we're not Microsoft, forget that.
This message is provided under the terms outlined at http://www.bero.org/terms.html
If you go here they even offer a special Precision 420 "made" for Red Hat!
Thanx for the info. Still, it only seems to be for the UK. For Switzerland, France, etc. they don't put Linux anywhere. AND YOU STILL HAVE TO PAY FOR A WINDOWS (98, NT, 2000) LICENSE!! If you scroll down, where there's the OS choice, it's all windoze...
-- It's always darker before it goes pitch black.
Woops, didn't check enough. Indeed, UK customers *can* buy a RH preloaded workstation *without* paying the MS tax. But it's on ly in the UK, unfortunately...
-- It's always darker before it goes pitch black.
Dell seems to be only offering Linux in the USA, not in Europe. You can check http://euro.dell.com and they *never* propose Linux, even for high end servers (only winblows and Netware).
Anyway, when you see the kind of monopoly M$ has over Europe, it isn't surprising. If you guys think M$ is a bully in the USA, come and have a look at it here... A friend of mine has a computer store and is an official MS reseller. One day, some MS marketing guy came over to look at how they were presenting their crap and noticed some Linux distros among the various software. The reaction was immediate: "If you want to keep being one of our official reseller, those penguin boxes have to disappear, etc...".
Now, no major PC manufacturer dares selling anything else than MS in Europe by fear of retaliation. Good thing I build all my PCs!
-- It's always darker before it goes pitch black.
Last point... and really offtopic. I saw an ad last week for Compaq that said "24x7 Nonstop"... are they trying to tell me their computer will only run for one fucking week?? Sheesh!
IIRC, the old Digital slogan (before they were bought by Compaq) was "365x24".
One day of downtime every 4 years? :)
WWTTD?
We just got a Dual Xeon Dell poweredge 6400 for statistical number crunching. I giggled as I found the contents of the box to contain an offical copy with documentation of RedHat 6.2. Which had been preinstalled by dell as well.
Microsoft aggravates my tourettes syndrome.
Apparently the "MS Tax" is more of an "MS Tax Credit".
I agree with your goal, but your analogy stinks.
.001% of the bicycle market.
Most of those bikes cost thousands of dollars and the market as a whole for those bikes is
The mass-retail market demands a pre-installed, plug-it-in-and-start-downloading-nudies OS and that's what they'll ship, just like the mass-retail market for bikes demands a pedals and a seat and isn't likely to start offering seat-and-pedals free bikes anytime soon.
I don't know if anything can really be done, I like capitalism and all, but it seems kind of unfair at times.
It could be worse. Under communism, we'd have the governement developing OSes, like in China. (No kidding. The PRC really is working on something, the H? OS.)
it's green.
I think he meant that the machine, not the software, was frozen. As in the component configuration - they only make one box with Linux on it, and you don't get to choose your options.
---
I can't believe they decided to bundle their computers with shit.
Well, maybe one day they'll stop loading Microsoft products on all their machines. One can only hope.
What would you rather they bundled on them?
Will in Seattle
Another question is that will DELL/RH/IBM support it and is the cost of support factored into the preloaded box?
Finally, here's a multiple choice question :
Q: Why is IBM/DELL shipping boxes with Linux instead of Windoze?
(a) They want to piss off Bill Gates (nah nah nah nah, your's monopoly's gone!)
(b) They listen to consumer demands
(c) They play the "cool" card and hope to ride the linux-association stock craze
(d) A Dell middle manager noticed that an unofficial desktop running linux was more stable (sic)
Mode (3) smart-aleck mode. Press * to return to main menu.
They have been installing on Servers. This is the first time they will be installing on Desktops and Laptops
Yeah, now two of my three lots of Red Hat are way above purchase price.
Can't see how this will help Corel with cash flow that quick - they only have a few days left before the Canadian government padlocks the doors.
Good thing it's Open Source, you can always get tech support and recompile it yourself, eh?
Will in Seattle
I know you're trolling, but I just can't help it...
I can think of one thing that a MS OS can do better (at the moment) than a Linux-based OS, and that's play games. I doubt that Toyota is worried about the quality of Quake III on their proxy server, but they ARE probably thinking strongly about the stability and speed of the server, and Linux wins, hands down.
---------
"There's no swimming in the heavy water, no playing in the acid rain.
"To hope's end I rode and to heart's breaking: Now for wrath, now for ruin and a red nightfall!"
I agree that the trial made linux catch up faster, my point was that it was inevitable. Eventually there would have been enought demand for Dell computers preinstalled with Linux that they would have risked M$'s anger and done it anyway. My point simply is that Linux was winning an upward battle without the DOJ's help, and would have eventually won either way.
Finkployd
Redhat is less of a hardcore/server distribution than, say, slackware, because, as you say, it tries for both the desktop and the server market.
You are certainly wrong about general users wanting or needing PCs in the future. Did you even read the article? The first issue that is brought up is 'the metaphor crisis.' Because PCs must support many different applications and varieties of hardware, they are hard(er) to use, because the mouse/keyboard metaphor is not optimal for many applications. Let's say, for example, that a door, a lamp, and a TV were controlled by a generic PC interface - a mouse and keyboard. It would be horribly backwards, because the interface is not optimized and adjusted for the application. A door has a handle, because it is the most logical interface. A lamp has a switch, because it is the most logical interface. A TV has a remote control - because it is the most logical interface. What happens is that the PC is divided into many appliances, each with its interface AND hardware optimized for its application. Things finally become easier to use - what the user wants. Keep in mind that the general user is the guy who bought an iMac to check 'that internet' out, not the linux junkie worried about where his shell prompt will go.
The corporations will not largely affect information flow, either. Mass media corporations like aol/time warner can certainly do their share, but the Web will still flourish as it does today. Most information will be free, but, sadly, some things will be littered with ads. But, then again, the same happens today.
penguin computing was NOT here first. in fact they cant even come up with their own logo so they use TUX as their logo (I see this is VERY WRONG) Anyone with a screwdriver and a linux distro can sell linux pre-installed, so what they do is not revolutionary, or special in any way.
VA on the other hand.... they make 100% sure that the hardware is 100% linux compatable, and they work the bugs out of the new hardware before shipping. yes they just slap together a pc and slap linux on it, but the task of choosing hardware that doesnt suck is a big one.
(although, having sound and video on the Mo-Bo is a dumb-ass move... but if you have to sell dirt-cheap pc's that's the way to go.)
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
I cannot remember any instances where the brand of computer was mentioned in a bust. "Now for the breaking news...A Dell Dimension was used to bring down the New York Stock Exchange, while in other news Backard Smell sales decreased do to small hacker sales."
The posting above is just this
My experience with Dell and RedHat Linux was rather distrubing. We purchased a Dell PowerEdge 2400 (with the PERC2/si Raid Card) when recieved the machine it was not preloaded. In fact the raid driver was not finished. They finaly got us the driver after three weeks when to out suprise the driver was compiled for a specific version of the kernel (Dell's Special Tweaked version) which had a PPP problem (which we needed). I guess my point is RedHat and Dell get all sort of publicity for being open sourced, but yet we could not get the source code to compile the driver ourselves. Yet company like Caldera, IBM, and Mandrake get some publicity but it is almost an after thought. This is just my opinion. Peace Out.
The posting above is just this
Though I believe everyone that says netscape locks up/crashes on them, I'm always puzzled because it doesn't happen to me.
Bill - aka taniwha
--
Leave others their otherness. -- Aratak
On some workstations, yes. Not surprising... didn't they buy out DEC awhile back? On a somewhat related note, what the heck ever happened to Digital Unix?
--
Free Software: Like love, it grows best when given away.
Interesting how RedHat knows how to do business and aquire business partners. That's why to many RH=Linux :)
Listen, strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government
Having just aquired (yesterday) a Sony Glasstron, I am now looking for a laptop that support S-Video or has an RCA video jack, plus a built in DVD drive.
Ok, this fits the bill, BUT -- do all of these *work* under Linux? Especially the DVD drive, which I would want to use as a DVD and VCD player.
--
Evan
"$30 for the One True Ring. $10 each additional ring!" -- JRR "Bob" Tolkien
Yes, it would have been nice to get it with Debian but I just ordered a Dell Dimension with Red Hat and was for the first time able to buy a computer with no revenue for MS. The configurations are pretty locked as it only came with 128MB of RAM I had to put 2 additional 128MB DIMMs on the order and will have to install them myself. But how difficult is that??? I called Gateway and they would not sell me a box with Linux and with Compaq you have to special order a server with Linux. Compaq does not have any standard desktops configured with Linux. So for the big players so far it's only Dell and IBM that are 'really' supporting linux!!
notoriousgdd@netscape.net
can I get one of those cool fall-apart stickers? :)..
The last thing you want as an auto dealer is a 'crash'..
air and light and time and space
--
Free Software: Like love, it grows best when given away.
Finally, major companies have started to respect the open source revolution! However, I have a feeling that all the big names are doing it for company PR and stuff: "Well, the Dell corporation is interested in only the best for our clients, and we believe that offering linux solutions is reaching that goal." I wish they would start shipping with *BSD and beOS, but I doubt that's going to happen in the next few years....
I do think it will get better, but right now it's just a hack of a desktop. I'll stick to windows for design work and Linux for development/networking.
yup. I think this is a coincidence. I think it has more to do with the progress that has been made with Linux in terms of friendly install, improved driver support, lots of good software. You now have distro's that will install very easily on most any machine, and a good gui that the average user can grasp and run without any real knowledge of a CLI..
air and light and time and space
Why is there no difference in price?
wandered into two national computer stores last week and was amazed at the huge selection of Linux distros. Not just that, but they were placed in top-billing racks. And suddenly all these corps are shipping units with Linux.
Even the game store at Pacific Place in Seattle had something like six distros. And some major games. So, it's even catching on in gaming, where, sadly, it's still got some catch up work to do as an OS.
I think this whole court case has definitely provided a window of opportunity, both by distracting MSFT and by making them behave like a bully a bit less. But now that it's in Supreme Court limbo land, we may see the gloves come off.
Never underestimate the sneakiness of MSFT.
[note: I own MSFT shares]
Will in Seattle
I have a ways to go to break even on my last batch of RHAT. In the black overall on them though.
What's up with CORL? Bankruptcy?
---
I work for Dell.. I can't believe they decided to bundle their computers with shit.
Hmm. The last time I bought a Dell, it was bundled with styrofoam. Perhaps the engineers at Dell have discovered that fecal matter provides better shock absorbtion?
Novel concept, anyway.
We're going down, in a spiral to the ground
I've got a dual boot system, Debian 2.2 and Winblows 98 (only so I can play DVD's and games that haven't been ported yet, and 'cause it's work's laptop and the boss insisted that Winblows be installed on it.) Debian runs quite well on the system, but I had a ethernet card problem, so I called Dell Tech Support to try to get a replacement. After shipping it back three times, 2 motherboard swaps and a new keyboard later they finally swapped the ethernet card. They about blew a gasket when they found out that I had the system dual booting. Dell's tech support claimed my problems are due to dual booting. RIGHT!
I then had to lie to them and say that I only had windows installed on it to get them to help me. And working with their Tech Support is like pulling teeth. They have a script that they run through and will not under any circumstances deviate from the script.
So as far as buying a system pre-loaded with Linux on it, I'll get it from VA or Penguin rather than the likes of Compaq, Dell or Gateway. They're still in bed with Billy-Boy, and won't help if you have a hardware problem if you're not running win-something-or-another.
"If you insist on using Windoze you're on your own."
Dell only seems to provide their drivers in binary form.
This Adaptec's fault. They won't open-source the driver.
True, RedHat is making money, but for a business in RedHat's position, $16mil is a pitance. And a 2.5mil loss is still way to much for a company as established (and old! RedHat is not a startup) as Redhat. I think Be is a bad long term investment too. They still aren't making a profit, but at least they have some new prospects on the horizon. Until RedHat can take advantage of its position as the dominant Linux company.
A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...
From the look of this page here there can be quite a significant price difference. I'm not qualified to comment on whether "PE4400 - Highly Scalable Departmental Server" for $11,515 (forth box down) is a better solution that "PowerEdge[tm] 4400 with Red Hat Linux" for $7144, but if I was buying a departmental server it would be my job to find out before I paid all that extra money for the Microsoft solution. As far as I can tell the hardware is equivalent. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
Cheers,
Chris Morgan
--
$x='S24;r)>63/* h@<5+oZ)32"5cz';$me='phroggy'x$];
$x=~y+ -xz+\0-Tx+;print$_^chop$me for split'',$x;
Do you think Dell would have had the balls to ship a Linux box if not for the DOJ investigation? OEMs couldn't even preinstall a browser on their Windows boxes without MSFT's say so. Intel quashed a lot of their software plans because of MSFT. Everyone was under their thumb. From the looks of things that were discovered at the trial MSFT basically was dictating what a majority of the computer industry did.
If anyone believes that Dell would risked angering MSFT by selling Linux, a rereading of the Findings of the Fact is in order. MSFT played the OEMs with its Windows pricing scheme and does that played ball (Compaq, Gateway) were charged substantially less than others. IBM on the other hand would have pursued Linux regardless but I'm not so sure about Dell. Here's a Google cache of Bill G commenting on Dell from the MSFT trial days.
PS: I once interviewed with Dell and asked the why they didn't have a comprehensive Linux plan and the response was "We're waiting to see how things go before committing resources. Once someone shows it's a viable plan, we'll jump on it."
--
--
That sounds more like an arguement for my analagy than against it. My point is that the "upper" or "power" segment of the market is small, but that the manufacturers should support our needs as well.
These are desktop systems not just servers so they can't claim limited application as the reason for limiting hardware options and as you pointed out it certainly seems odd that they limit options like memory and mouse selection. You might have expected this to happen if they had loaded Linux on the cheap models and just made the package a price leader. Interestingly they went with the less expensive OS Linux and loaded it on their more robust and reliable machines (Albeit with few options) weird...
To lock up for AMD is the more appropriate term. Replace the processor and your Dell won't boot anymore. If you want to upgrade your Dell to an AMD processor, you have to scrounge the netnews to find out which Intel motherboard is in there, use the Intel BIOS recovery disk to reflash the motherboard with Intel firmware, and then replace the CPU.
It always struck me as weird that the Intel BIOS takes away the restriction against AMD that Dell built in :-)
Bert Driehuis -- All I asked was a friggin' rotatin' chair. Throw me a bone here, people.
Apparently some of the managers were getting really sick of all the DoJ crap, so they smoked some joints and then posted this crap.
dragonhawk@iname.microsoft.com
I do not like Microsoft. Remove them from my email address.
This is an excellent suggestion, 'cept that a dozen people I know called Dell and got a blunt reaction, without any hint that they might do something with the feedback.
When I called them, I put the screws on them: "I don't want Windows'98". Ah, monsieur is a connaisseur! I'll tick Windows NT for you then. No, I don't want Windows. I want to install UNIX on it, and I don't want to pay for Windows. I'm sorry sir, we're not allowed to ship a Dell without an Operating System. Okay, fair enough: throw a copy of Linux in. No, I'm really sorry sir, but that is impossible. I can ship you a machine with DOS 6.2 if you want. It's.... wait a minute while I look it up... No, that's actually more expensive than shipping with '98. So, I'll include '98 with your order. Thanks, but no thanks.
This from the company that pre-installed *ANY* OS you threw at them in their early days...
Bert Driehuis -- All I asked was a friggin' rotatin' chair. Throw me a bone here, people.
What Penguin and VA should do is find ways to differentiate themselves from the DELL and IBM Linux offerings. It's no longer enough just to say "our pre-install is slightly better". It needs to be a lot better, or they need to offer additional services that DELL and IBM don't offer.
Another good strategic move would be for VA and Penguin to partner or merge with a larger-scale manufacturing company, which is the "if you can't beat em, join em" strategy. Of course, if they want to remain small players, that's fine (although it would disappoint their shareholders, in the case of VA). There are plenty of small high-end hi-fi manufacturers who make kick-ass products at great expense to serve the audiophile market and could care less if they don't compete head-to-head with SONY.
Not to be confused with a marketroid, let's just say I'm a fan of Michael Porter, who is the leading expert in Competitive Strategy, and probably the most respected marketing professor at Harvard Business School. It pays to know your enemy ;)
"What I cannot create, I do not understand."
Are you really arguing that Linux is not proceeding on it's own merits? ...or crediting it's long-arrived success to the actions of the DOJ? I honestly don't think the DOJ or Judge Jackson deserves the credit- it belongs with the people who've developed it and made it what it is, rather than to the government. Our politicians may claim credit, but don't be fooled- they were cheerleaders, while other people were running with the ball.
I think you're underestimating Linux, or overestimating the degree of control MS has on the market, or both.
Keep in mind that MS hasn't changed any of it's business practices- it's still convinced that it's just playing hardball, and that this is OK.
Given this info... I'd say that this *is* a coincidence... in my opinion.
Lupus non mordet lupum.
Look at what MS is doing with MPEG4 and windos media (They'll be "using the OS monopoly to extend share in other markets" when they bundle windos media into M.E. Look at what MS is trying to do to Palm. Look at what MS is doing to Kerberos. Look at what MS continues to do to Java every day. If this is their best behaviour, I think they're best isn't good enough!
___
Question. Why do they call it the One Source Alliance? Some pun off of "source code", or the fact that Dell will have one source of Linux distributions?
Hmm. Do you think this would have happened before Judge Jackson?
Yes, I do. Linux was growing at a phenominal rate before the whole anti-trust thing, and will continue to grow after it. While I don't doubt that M$ getting bitch-slapped (seems to be the work for the day here) has helped Linux win support, I do NOT believe that it is the sole reason. Linux is faster, more stable, and simply better for many jobs than Windows. And while Windows has it beat in some areas, Linux is improving, while Windows seems to be regressing (from the looks of their win2k joke).
I hope history doesn't record the Microsoft case as the reasong some unknown little operating system came into being, since Linux was on the way to overtaking Windows anyway.
Finkployd
Because they have a contract where they get paid for every unit shipped, even when it doesn't have a MSFT OS on it.
And since the penalty removing that type of contract is suspended until the Supreme Court rules, that's not going to change any time soon.
Will in Seattle
Even though this is just some big names preinstalling RedHat in most cases, it'll go a damn long way toward helping the reputation of Linux in general.
I notice particularly, that they mention shipping Web/Proxy boxes to Lexus/Toyota.
This relates to something that I have been trying to push for in my LUG.
I wanted us to present Linux as a viable option to K-12 schools, who in a lot of cases are beginning to think seriously about doing things properly with regard to the internet, but the cost is too much! Using a free OS can help offset that a bit!
Only problem is, that when you tell most people about it, you mention RedHat, or other distros and various other names that they've never heard of, and you get nothing other than a blank look!
But now you can mention Dell, or particularly Big Blue, and they'll immediately have more confidence!
Sad, but true!
"How much truth can advertising buy?" - iNsuRge - AK47
"How much truth can advertising buy?" - iNsuRge - AK47
...should be taking.
MS is for games. Remember back when IBM was crippling their boxes because they didn't want to be seen by corporate clients as a game machine. When corporate buyers find out their purchasers have been buying a system which only excells at games, that's when Microsoft is in trouble.
"So that's why our productivity hasn't been going up."
Eternal vigilance only works if you look in every direction.
The power segment of the market buys two kinds of computers: servers, which all major vendors will sell without an OS, or screwdriver specials either self-assembled or by a mom-n-pop shop.
Again, what you're asking is for mainstream vendors to supply something that the mainstream market doesn't appear to want. What you want IS readily available, you're just shopping in the wrong market.
Again, though, I agree with you: there's little reason why Dell or the others couldn't sell systems with empty HDs, other than the market hasn't been demanding it.
...as a favor to Microsoft. As in:
Bill: "I'm having a bit of trouble with the government."
Michael: "How can I help?"
Bill: "Well, they think I have no competition. So, if you could pretend to sell Linux boxes, it'll look good for me."
Michael: "Sure, especially if you knock another five bucks off my OEM licenses."
Bill: "No problem."
But, after Michael Dell's appearance on Charlie Rose last week, I'm beginning to have doubts. (Or at least I'm beginning to suspect Dell has doubts.) The following is a quote from that interview in which he talks about how businesses have to adapt their business.
"If you had a business that was based on tricking your customer -- which, in fact, a lot of businesses were fundamentally, you know, assumed that the customer didn't have very much information and the customer was, in effect, uninformed -- well, that's going away. And you have to assume that the customer is knowledgeable and has access to resources around the world and can compare and contrast and gain access to new ideas extremely rapidly. So you have to be able to thrive on that."
I don't know who fits the description of a company who assumes the customer is uninformed better than MS. So, maybe Michael Dell is finally having some doubts about his relationship with a company as dishonest as Microsoft.
And hedging his bets.
Eternal vigilance only works if you look in every direction.
--
--
They're toast.
Steven
I used to work at Dell; in fact, I was in the Linux support queue--anything I say though is my own opinion, and besides I don't work for them anymore.
I've never heard about the amount of RAM being restricted--that sounds like a dubious claim to me (unless it's a limitation of whatever crappy new Intel chipsets Dell is using now). As far as other options being config locked, it's mainly a support issue, but also a matter of resources, and also a matter of compatibility.
Support--the more configs you support, the more hassle it is for the people on the telephone queue, and the people that train them.
Resources--Dell's product group has a limited amount of time & resources to commit to validating particular hardware configs; why offer as many varied configs for Linux users when Linux boxes aren't going to come close to selling as well as Windows boxes?
Compatibility--not much point of installing a DVD-ROM drive on a Linux box, is there?
As an aside, this press release struck me as odd. Dell has been preinstalling Red Hat Linux for quite some time. Also, Dell doesn't support Linux the way they support Windows. OS-specific (i.e., not hardware related) questions were handled by Linuxcare. Now it looks like Red Hat is handling support.
During severe high-end cpu shortages a couple of months ago, the only tier one manufacturer to claim to have no problems getting the chips it wanted was Dell, which happened to be the last tier one manufacturer to not offer AMD products.
My guess is Dell got guaranteed supplies in exchange for agreeing not to open up to AMD.
Many sysadmins that I know will always wipe the vendor pre-installation in favor of doing their own, just because there will always be something (partition choices, etc.) that they find to be "not quite the way they want it".
So, my question is: has anyone bought pre-loaded linux boxes from VA or other companies? How have you found the installation? Personally, none of these would do me much good because my distro of choice is Debian (just my preference!). However, lots of people blow away the factory installations of IRIX and Solaris to re-install the same thing, so I'm wondering how prevalent this will be with pre-installed Linux.
Also, I've seen where some vendors charge more for Linux instead of Windows...if this is the case, it seems silly to even offer the option. As another poster said, just give me the system with nothing on the hard disk at all, and let me do as I please. Of course, that would certainly make them difficult to support (I speak from experience building and reselling Windows PCs...some customers would want them without OSs, because they already owned Windows or something, but even in that case we'd still have to hook up a hard disk with an OS to test all the hardware).
WMBC freeform/independent online radio.
Both the IBM and the Dell laptops have full hardware support. Dell in particular has been fairly good about never shipping a box with and OS that does not support all the hardware. These boxen are certified for their distros.
Quit spreading FUD. Research before you open your mouth, It is better to remain silent and seem a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt!
Packard Bell is no longer n the PC business. Try again buddy.
I wonder sometimes if a significant chunk of the /. trolls don't really work at McDonald's and run Win98.. "I work at Cisco!" "I work at Microsoft! Listen to me!!!"
Whatever.
I hope so.
The problem for them is that there are no "barriers to entry" to prevent DELL from being able to duplicate that edge....
That's a point I was trying to make in my original comment.
Another good strategic move would be for VA and Penguin to partner or merge with a larger-scale manufacturing company, which is the "if you can't beat em, join em" strategy.
Kinda sad, ain't it?
let's just say I'm a fan of Michael Porter...
I tend to be more of a fan of Woz or Ritchie, but, hey, whatever works! :-)
it's green.
what's your point ?
I guess I shouldn't worry so much about Corporate America taking over. But if this is a pattern and consumers ignore companies founded to pre-load Linux in favour of companies like Dell, then the outlook is sorta grim.
it's green.
To me, the ultimate goal is to ship systems with no OS. Blank disk. No hassles, no royalties, just options. If you buy a high end bicycle, it comes without peddles and the seat. Why? Because the power users have their own preferences, and are going to replace the personal components anyway.
now with MS on its best behaviour, not wanting to screw up their appeal
But you're assuming they care. Or that they don't think they won't win the appeal anyway.
If they believe their own spin, the gloves will be coming off.
[note: I own MSFT shares]
Will in Seattle
The only companies that distribute machines with FreeBSD are ones like Telenet Systems. I think there is a list of hardware vendors that produce hardware and/or systems that support FreeBSD at http://freebsd.org
:(
I asked my company's Dell representative and the reply that I get back from her and the other people is that there are no plans to support or even distribute BSD with their machines. I find this really sad, mostly because many people wouldn't mind purchasing a Dell PowerEdge server pre-loaded with FreeBSD (or OpenBSD for that matter).
If I had the time, money and management's approval, I'd purchase the parts and get per-incident support contracts and build my own BSD-based server. But I guess if any of the hardware fails, there would not be any decent replacement or on-site repair contracts
Your probably looking in the Home users section. They only have them as large buissness (sp?) workstations. here. Interesting how they seperate them as Mid-sized-desktop/Mini-tower and RedHat Linux. I would presume the RedHat boxes come as Mid-sized-desktops/Mini-towers.
Also funny how the price difference is 800USD...
Mark Duell
Where is this price difference? The Dell Dimension XPS T with a 700mhz PIII is 1797 with nt 4 and 1737 with RH 6.1. The only difference is a network card.
try here.
I suppose this news is responsible for RedHat's 20% stock price increase today. For those of you missed out on the IPO last year, now is still a good time to buy. I picked up a bunch in the teens last month and have been watching with glee as it has almost doubled.
The thing about redhat that wall street doesn't understand is they aren't going to go away. It's a safe company as far as I'm concerned. Their stock may be wild and crazy right now but it's a good long term investment. I think that their 300/share price earlier this year was just silly but it shows were they could be in a few years.
Damn it Jim, I'm just an engineer not a financial advisor!
-- Virtual Windows Project
--
I thought that there was source here for the drivers. I know that the drivers are there anyway. If you cannot get driver source, you can certainly get kernel source there for the Dell kernels at different versions.
It should be possible to use a diff and find the code that needs to be patched into any other kernel versions to allow the use of your card. Have a nice day!
I just bought an inspiron 7500. I was going to get the one with linux (even though I would have formatted it and re-installed lupix) just so I didn't have to buy windows. However when you select linux, you are restricted to what hardware you can get. You couldn't get the ls-120, dvd, good screen, or some other stuff. They say because that hardware isn't well supported. I ended up buying it with windows just to get the goodies. If anyone buys one and needs the modeline for the 1400x1050 screen, I will have it posted soon.
No datacenter is secure if it has windows.
I've really enjoyed the Unixisms in Be (like file structure, bash shell) and am looking forward to not bothering with having to configure that bear of a OS called Linux.
BTW, anybody have any hints for the Slackware kenerl issues (always comes out "too large" even using make bzImage ) or getting Mandrake to install over FTP? Mail me at gandalfgreyhame@hushmail.com if you do, thanks.
Linux is only free if your time is of no value
Be in Your Senses
I did a bit of programming for Penguin Comp, though that itself does not make me spectacularly qualified to comment.
Their aim is not to become a major player. Otherwise they'd get a broader goal than offering PCs with linux+support. They're just after a niche, and offering not a huge amount above that. Dell on the other hand sells all kinds of things, brought out their own business model, is making all sorts of weird alliances to keep up its rate of internal growth, etc.
Once they start going for a 'vision,' then they'll begin the innovation required. It does not have to be anything soft, though that would be nice. An improvement in operations far beyond Compaq and Dell is sufficient.
Have bought preloads of Linux from both IBM (servers only) and Dell (desktops and servers) and found both fairly good, as well as Penguin and local specialists. In the case of the Netfinity's, the VAR's install engineer called and asked what partitioning I'd like. The one set of servers we got recently with NO load at all was some E450's from Sun....
Damn. MS MADE Kerberos what it is. MPEG4 is a seriously kick ass codec. Are you telling me Sonorsen should be sued for keeping its codec (the monopoly on Quicktime por... er... videos) prorietory? And MS is not trying to do anything to Palm. They are simply trying to compete in the market with a higher end product. To tell the truth, I would rather have the power of a WinCE device than the simplicity of a Palm, because I don't have much use for a device that simply keeps shedules. In this case MS really is innovating, trying to get the whole, "PC in your hand" thing going. While it is very effective, palm is simply trying to make a better day planner.
A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...
BSDi offers systems with FreeBSD on them. BSDi or Linux are optional.
This all due to the acquisition of Telenet by BSDi.
c|net sez the linux boxen are for kiosks, which means that people may see some linux after all.
--
blue
i browse at -1 because they're funnier than you are.
My original post was an attempted dig on management (PHB=Pointy Haired Boss) and how they often only look for the superficial features in a computer systems.
Re:
"Windows has much better screensavers (partly due to the fact that it actually supports 3D applications waay better). It also has prettier colors than KDE and the like, again by far. I'd say X has transparency on Windows, but that's about it."
Thank you for proving my point. ;)
___
you can get a dimension from them with linux preinstalled for about 1450 (more or less) thats with a 20gb drive, 128mb ram.. 32mb nvidia gforce.. decent 3com nic.. etc etc
Luke
That's a flat out lie. They simply started getting wind of what was happening with Linux and started trying to offer it to people. As well as the demand that was starting to creep up got them to start offering over 6 months ago. It was not widely known at first and was mainly on request, but now you can get it directly off the web site.
--And sektor spoke and said unto the people. Hey, buttwipe hand me the cheezeos.
- Linux
- Red Hat
- Red Hat
- Red Hat
- Dell
- strategic operating systems
- lexus and Toyota
- preloaded
- More on Linux
- Also by CmdrTaco
I thought Debian was Rob's distribution of choice? Has he switched? Is Red Hat dumping some extra cash (or cool toys) on the Geek Compound to receive this extra notice on Slashdot? . . . Or are the three repetitions of the Red Hat link just an accident?---
icq:2057699
seumas.com
The problem with this whole thing is that it continues to lead people into believing that RedHat == Linux. Countless times I've been asked to help out with a linux system, I ask them what version, and they say "6.2" or the like. There isn't much to be done by this, except perhaps labeling it as Linux, RedHat.
Specs:
15.4" SXGA 1280x1024
700Mhz, 256 MB, 25GB, DVD-ROM/Floppy Combo
-ryan
"Any way you look at it, all the information that a person accumulates in a lifetime is just a drop in the bucket."
Apparently some of the managers were getting really sick of the BSOD. The techs installed Linux on their machines one night, and most of them didnt even notice. During a 'stragetic meeting' someone noted that the computer systems seemed much more reliable than before. Then the techs told them about the operating system switch. After that they decided they wanted to pass the improvement onto their customers by shipping Linux!
Abashed the Devil stood,
And felt how awful goodness is
Now that these giant computer manufacturers are preloading Linux, what incentive does Joe Consumer have to buy from a company like Penguin? Those companies found a niche and started selling products. They were here first! Are they just going to get shoved aside or remain small? Or do you think that they still have a chance to become major manufacturers while the older companies are still getting their acts together?
it's green.
I have it on good word that open-source drivers for the on-board adaptec-raid card will appear within the next month. see linux-kernel lately, a person with a @dell.com email address strongly hinted so...
Out of curiosity, are any retailers offering to ship systems preloaded with *BSD, or even making noise about doing so down the road?
The ultimate goal, recall, is to have systems shipped with your choice of operating system - not just with any given one.
My organization recently purchased a Dell Server with Linux preloaded. It came with a Perc 3/Si RAID controller built in. Low and behold, the sendmail people found a flaw in the Linux kernel, and it was the concensus of our network administrators to upgrade the kernel to the latest (presently 2.2.16) from Dell's default (2.2.14-12).
However, Dell only seems to provide their drivers in binary form. This may be our mistake, but others seem to be unable to find source versions as well. Hence, we are unable to upgrade the kernel without risking losing access to our RAID array. This is a frestruation I find other people are griping about on USENET and the like. It seems that some groups have figured out what the hardware is; they just do not know how Dell has it interfaced to everything else.
Whether or not the distributors are doing this is a PR move, it is a big deal for the Open Source community. This will, hopefully, finally make Linux a "legitimate" business choice in the eyes of people who previously saw Linux as only a hacker's plaything.
---------
"There's no swimming in the heavy water, no playing in the acid rain.
"To hope's end I rode and to heart's breaking: Now for wrath, now for ruin and a red nightfall!"
Speaking of Linux distros, I was recently reading the Microcenter ad (a big chain store) and noticed many Linux distros. Favorites like RedHat, Corel, Debian, TurboLinux, FreeBSD... yes, FreeBSD was listed as a Linux distro.
Oh the humanity.
A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...
Having a judge bail you out is not exactly something to be proud of. In fact, the Linux community should be ashamed if MS loses this case, because they'll never know if they won on basis of superior product tactics, or they just had Bill's head handed to them on a silver platter. I strongly believe that current laws don't work too well for computer companies due to the nature of the product. There is nothing about a cable line that prevents competitors from using it, but almost everything makes OSs incompatible with each other. Almost by definition, widespread computing needs a monopoly-class OS.
A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...
I mean, come on. If you don't know it's an option, 99% of people will never think of having buying a computer with Linux preloaded. At least offer it on a second partition. If the user doesn't like it, they can delete it.
Sorry, I just think it's high time Dell, Gateway, and IBM got moving on this. I am an avid Linux user, but I still realize that most people use whatever comes installed on their computer.
OS:
Linux 6.2
Hmm... Redhat really does == Linux...
Can't you wait till compaq does it? Oh wait, are they?
Got shack?
ShackCentral Network
Worlds best gaming network!!!
But I bet they wouldn't want a crash on the lot, or during a test drive.. I've built kiosks around Win95 and got what I deserved- Daily calls from the client- "The screen is all blue.."
air and light and time and space
What's up with CORL? Bankruptcy?
Could be. Running out of angels and VCs to keep them going and they've got as many clues as Bill G has business ethics.
I'm pondering if I should drop some cash in a mercy buy of SALN that I did a long time back (after the IPO), since they're down to almost $1 a share. Could just drop 1K on them and if it pops back up it's a massive kill. But Corel leaves a sour taste - they just spread bad news.
Again, it's cool that Dell and IBM are doing distros, and the users could always switch distros later and still be fine. Especially since it's open source.
The fronzen config comment bothers me - are they locking these down and not giving you the root password, just a su password?
Will in Seattle
Heh. Check out this guy's posting history.
I can't believe he got this far with only a few negative moderations.
Laptops!
Laptops!
Laptops!
I want to see laptops with Linux and in the sub $2000 category too, with DVD roms, 100 base T, v.90 modems, just like MS bribes the laptop makers into doing.
Mind you, I don't stray terribly far fram slashdot. slashdot, freshmeat, lwn, linux.org.uk and sourceforge are my main net abodes, though I do visit many of the sites linked of slashdot and I will occasionally go on wild goose chases via google (mind you, google tends to tame them a little:). But netscape crash on me? Very rare. And this is with fortified rh6.1 netscape + flash.
Bill - aka taniwha
--
Leave others their otherness. -- Aratak
Actually the platform and options that Dell chose to offer with Linux are quite high quality. Linux people tend to be do it yourselfers that can add a stick of memory if needed on their own. A lot of people don't have time to buy and return a bunch of cheapo systems that don't work. Now if someone asks me where they can find a stable machine all I have to say is look for a Dell model with Linux loaded on it.
We also just bought about $70,000 of servers from Dell. We bought a bunch of their 2450 servers and four of their PowerApp 100 machines.
All are well made and came perfectly preconfigured with Red Hat 6.2 and work just fine.
One annoyance, however, is that the 2450 servers have an intergrated Ultra3 RAID controller OEM'd from Adaptec. They don't supply source for the drivers and the precompiled modules only work with specific kernel versions. I emailed their support about this and was informed by their tech that they only support the hardware and I should "talk to Linux" about my kernel version upgrade problems. They have a few support problems to work out I suspect.
My problem with Dell and their pre-loading of Linux is that the selected models they have with it are config locked. You usually can't even add memory to the system. You take it as they spec'd it out or you don't get linux on it. But at least they ship it. We just switched to Gateway at work and I had to order my Athlon with 98 and Office. There was no choice for linux so I had to pay the MS tax.
Call me back when shipments reach one percent of units sold.
will they sell a singal box with linux on it to a individual that will spend less then 2K? or are they doing it because the car company is speending a shit load of money for a lot of computers?
--
Hmm. Do you think this would have happened before Judge Jackson? Do you think the consumer was hurt by M$? The difficulty is quantifying the damages because the harm was the with holding of choice.
I'd rather have someone respond than be modded up.
Our Sunnyvale office tried to buy some Dell systems with Linux pre-installed. They kept getting the same answer over and over, Linux only supports 128MB of RAM (not the model, but Linux!). They could not even get the memory part number from the sales department so they could call the parts department to order more. It was ludicrious!
So our SV office made the mistake of ordering another model with Windows NT and ran into mega problems with everything from the video card to those sorry-@$$ Promise cards. Sure enough, someone finally contacted me (the order happened without my knowledge) and I tried to straighten out the whole fiasco (still working on it).
At our main office (where I work), we've dropped Dell completely because they have their head up their @$$ for the last 18 months -- seriously. I know they've had a lot of sales, which means they are overloaded and overworked in most departments, but Dell's recent expansion has left them in a cluster-f--- state, unlike the massive expansion of 1994 that Gateway 2000 underwent that was at least 3x as bad, but GW2K still kept good records and kept the order. After a year of Dell shipping systems to the wrong address (although billing to the right one, we couldn't even get it f---ing changed to be the same as the billing after 2 written letters!!!), shipping us replacements weeks late, and then shipping 2-3 of them (which only drives up their own costs!) and, lastly, because treated us like a f---ing 2-year old when our CEO's hard drive went belly up, with 3 different departments all pointing fingers at each other and no one to talk to, we dropped them. I mean, when you give my superiors some lame @$$ excuse time after time again, telling them flat out you don't know anything and can't do crap even though you purchase 6-figures of product a year, you drop a company like that. We gave Dell at least 2 dozen "chances" and they failed every single one ... continuously.
I think everyone knows the moral of the story here: freak the direct PC OEMs. Stick with either established Linux vendors like VA or use some "real" enterprise PC OEMs like IBM, HP and the like. They don't pop hard drives in like bread in a toaster, they'll customize your solution.
-- Bryan "TheBS" Smith
-- Bryan "TheBS" Smith
Independent Author, Consultant and Trainer
I think thats a config lock I can live with...
peas,
-Kabloona
About a month ago, I went to www.dell.com/linux/. They had a list of their hardware that was compat, and a link (something like) "click here to configure a computer with Linux" ... which took me to the regular MS-based configurators! I went all over their site, trying to figure out how to buy a preconfigured Linux system without talking to a salesperson, and couldn't. Maybe it was there somewhere, but I didn't see it.
So I ordered from VA Linux, and I'm happy as a pig in shit -- especially since I just configured a Dell as close as I could to my new VALinux, and Dell is a lot more expensive.
(No, I don't work for, nor am I being paid by VALinux for this referral. I'm just a satisfied customer.)
Got a beef? Plug a name into the Bizarre Rumour Generator!
last time i was there they had Macmillan and RedHat.
RedHat is not primarily interested in the desktop. While the distro is easier to install, it's not considered anymore a system for newbies or home users or hobbyists in the way some others are. I use RedHat right now because after I messed up my boot sector removing MS Windows I ran out to Best Buy and picked up a consumer edition to install from CD. RedHat is nicely put together but lacks much in the way of consumer software. Well, at least I will never have to worry about Windows again on my home system and I will remember to properly back up!
Bob Young of RedHat is on record repeatedly as stating that the desktop is "80's" technology. That only makes sense to him as he is getting heavy investment from partners that want to push internet appliances and other thin clients. However, users don't want internet appliances and thin clients. They want desktop computers which can be both clients and servers and do all sorts of things, primarily. Corporations are trying to push IA and thin clients because they can make a lot of money renting software to consumers and corporate customers that way. They want all software to reside on their servers. This is a tremendous step backwards and is a terrible betrayal of the promise of the internet and of free software. It saddens me that you are just repeating buzzwords about "IA" being the way to go. Is your vision of the future for Linux the same as Bill Gates has with his NGWS for Windows - total surrender to remote control from corporatations? Of course they don't want local storage of data either - so these thin clients will come without hard drives.
No, we have a choice of futures. Sure, the desktop as we know it will evolve and may not look much like what we have now. I'd like for the video terminal to go and be replaced with holographic imagery and a lot more. But for freedom in information technology to survive and flourish, users will need the kind of control that desktop computing provides. Desktop computing is what really allowed Linux to take off and enlist the support of thousands of hackers working at home in their spare time. Linux was created on desktop computers.
To me, peer-to-peer networking and *sharing* rather than renting of information is much more interesting than what RedHat and other corporate players have in store for us, which harkens back to the days of time-sharing on mainframes where all input was via dumb terminals. IBM and Sun just loved that and greatly feared the PC at first - still do. Yes, the future is the network, but what kind of network will that be? I hope it is one that allows individuality and vountary cooperation to thrive and for corporate control of information to cease to be a profitable because nobody needs it or wants it.
I see the battle between those who want a widely distributed and dispersed network of information with local control of nodes (what users want) and thin clients relying on centralized servers (what corporations want) as the big battle of the coming decade. Compared to this, the issue of Microsoft's market share is relatively insignificant.
I find this story dubious at best.
If you claim it was a desktop machine, you are clearly as great an idiot as the other posters think you are.
If it was a fileserver, well it is not unlikely that some techs somewhere at Dell did something like this, but I strongly doubt that had much to do with the above announcement.
Regards,
Ben
My usual seat in the cluetrain is at A HREF="http://pub4.ezboard.com/biwethey.ht
At the end of today's trading:
RHAT +18.97%
CORL +13.56%
LNUX +12.35%
ok, here's a bunch of non-caps text to get around the anti-caps lameness filter. Which I didn't even know existed...
---
Dell have been shipping boxes with Linux pre-installed for over a year. They just don't shout about it much. Dell is big enough to do pretty much what it wants. They don't have to worry about Microsoft much. If Microsoft tries to impose penalties for failing to worship the Dear Leader, Dell have sufficient access to fat lawyers to take them to the court and win.
Dell are also well known for playing games with suppliers. They *only* ship Intel processors (honest). But they invite AMD engineers to their offices on a regular basis. The rumour is that they do this purely to keep Intel sharp. There are many stories of people seeing Dell boxes at exhibitions labelled 'AMD Inside'. But try and buy one and you get some *very* curious responses from Dell salesdroids.
Dell hates other companies being monopolies. They think that should be their job.
posted from an excellend Dell box running Linux