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How Is Wine Doing These Days?
zigzag noted a nice article Summarizing the Wine Architecture. It has some interesting technical stuff, as well as poll results asking what Wine's priorities should be (running Office came first, followed by games. I vote games, but I'm sick of having to run Diablo2 on my crappy old laptop w/o 3D Acceleration since it's my only windows box). Anyway, not a lot there, but this is a seriously important project so take a gander.
...arm in arm, holding cups of wine, clearly drunk off their asses (red-nosed and singing or something stupid like that).
The right tool for the right job, right? Game support with WINE would be nice, but I think that it's just asking for trouble since coding compatibility with Microsoft graphics APIs is like shooting at a moving target (and an erratically moving one at that!)
How is it a moving target? You could pick, say, Windows 98's base level of support - its been available for two years now - and support that.
It's only a moving target if you emulate everything that's available now; Wine has been in progress for years, and it still doesn't do Windows 3.1 correctly...
Coming soon - pyrogyra
So I was off by $100 bucks, sue me. I still think you're a cheapass if you can't stick another computer together to play games if you're that concerned with playing Diablo (a fucking $65 video game!). If you can afford that, you can afford to give money to bill gates and intel and run a Windows98 machine. You twits.
I eat the flesh off the living, and I vote!
I have a dual PII 450, I do use X on ocassion, with bloated window managers. Mainly to have xterms next to each other and for netscape. I didn't mean to insult those that use X, I'm just stating my personal opinion and responding to a post made jokingly with another post made jokeingly
--- Justin Dearing http://www.justaprogrammer.net/ We're just programmers.
No luck on Diablo 2 yet (or Tribes apparently), but Tribes 2 will be ported to Linux (mentioned here)... hopefully at some point the majority of PC gaming titles will be available with native Linux clients. However, the only way to bring that about is to support what's there already, so be sure to put your $ where your convictions lie :)
:wq
Come on, man, how hard is it to type www.winehq.com</a>???
In conclusion, I hate you.
"Beware he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart he deems himself your master."
Uhm, [Alt-F] pops open the File menu. Not what you wanted. Consulting WordPad under Wine, it appears [Ctrl-H] is what you wanted to press.
And, once you press [Enter], that'll get you though the first "find". If you want to "Replace All", you'll have to do a little more work, such as pressing [Alt-A].Also, you forgot the 2-stroke penalties for the "[Control] reach" and "[Alt] reach". Both of them are "reaches" on PC keyboards because the Control key is off in the corner, rather than where it should be. And, both are more expensive than hitting [Esc]. :-)
--Joe--
Program Intellivision!
No, in my humble opinion, re-implementing a broken API on Linux is not a noble cause. But I've been shouted down every time I've tried to point out how stupid it is to try and impress people with WINE.
/rant
rant:
My point is that the Linux community (myself included) has tried for years to claim that Linux is not a cheap imitation of Windows. Now, to prove that: we are using a broken and buggy emulation layer to implement an already broken and buggy API, to poorly run broken and buggy software that was meant for Windows. Um, Linux isn't a cheap imitation of Windows?
I see WINE as being just one more thing that people are doing to make Linux look bad. I know this isn't a popular opinion, but in the long run WINE encourages people to "port" Windows software to Linux through WINE (Look at WordPerfect Office) instead of writing solid native apps. I don't see this as a good thing.
Now, flame away....
Bite my yammer.
While it is frightening, it is also extremely funny. I fear for the person's sanity, but isn't laughing at crazy people always fun?
Bite my yammer.
You can run a Tribes server under wine with nor problems however a playing client I don't think is possible because of the nature of directx usage.
Cripes, everyone flames me saying you can't get what I listed for $800 or so.. Go to pricewatch and build one yourself for around that amount. Twits, everywhere unite!
I eat the flesh off the living, and I vote!
If you're too damn lazy to cut and paste, just who the hell are you to critisize him for being to damn lazy to use "a href" tags?
In conclusion... hate yourself.
john
Resistance is NOT futile!!!
Haiku:
I am not a drone.
Remove the collective if
Imagine all the people...
--
If you want full windows functionality, it seems that dual-booting is a smarter option. WINE will prolly never match windows, so what's the point?
Because I don't want to quit everything that I'm running at the moment just to run some application of other operating system? Dual boot would require me to do that, WINE doesn't. True, WINE doesn't run 100% of Windows programs, but then again, there's the comfortability I mentioned earlier...
Everyone who makes generalizations should be shot.
You are missing something:
4) People who use Linux almost exclusively but have a few applications that are only available in windows flavors, and dual booting would be excessive work. Ie, creating website graffics using gimp, and creating macromedia flash for the same website.
5) People who can't justify buying a windows license for a few applications.
6) People who have written a windows version of a program and want to get a linux port out quick using libwine (Ie, Corel, yes I know Corel Office uses wine not libwine, but the plan is to use libwine in the future).
7) Not contributing to the Microsoft Defense Fund (not buying software from MS).
-matt
if DirectX is implemented, any games that run under Windows 2000 should run under Linux.
Well, they should..... There are a few problems. in my experience. Firstly, its not 100% bug free (I am using an old version of Wine, so it may be better by now) Most of the problems I find are in Direct3D. I think the problems caused by D3D being implemented in Mesa. i.e. a low level API is being implemented using a high level API. The D3D driver also unfortunately tells the application that all of D3D is implemented in hardware, which makes it painfully slow if you don't have acceleration.
Microsoft's plan for the future also saw everyone moving to Xenix at some point after DOS 2.0. My how their plans have changed.
-matt
I was pleased to find that Wine compiled cleanly and Starcraft installed easily. The only problem was that it locks up after about 20 min of playing. Save early, save often.
Bah, all of those are way overrated. Try a nice Spanish Rioja sometime... Verrrry nice. Some call it "Sangre de La Tierra", for good reason.
I strongly believe that trying to be clever is detrimental to your health. -- Linus Torvalds
Also, I'm not going to comment on win2k behing a worthwhile product...
-- We should kill all the intolerant people in the world.
you could run a multuser Unreal tournement on one box.
hmmmm
When someone yells "Stop" or goes limp, or taps out, the fight is over.
www.winehq.com and read the faq , tells some reasons why linux would wanna run some windows binarys and another thing , can windows run linux binarys? ... heh
He certainly has the submission queue on a Linux box ok. Most of us only reboot for windows games, not some quicktime trailler too. And I'm sure you'd bitch more if he posted a quicktime. But really, get lives or write some code or something.
-- http://thegirlorthecar.com funny dating game for guys
i love applixware! i had bought a "student edition" when i was a student, oh, right when redhat 4.0 came out.. unfortunately, years later when i upgraded to suse 6.2 applix refused to install, because it wasn't red hat.
.DOC conversions, either.. just some word 3.1 or something..
i'm sure i could probably have hacked around and got it to install, but then there was the libc5 issues also, and staroffice was free with my new suse, so i just went to that
oh, and that old applix wouldn't handle the newest
wish
---
Notably, you forgot the http:// at the front of your URL. The correct answer is: <A HREF="http://www.winehq.com/">WineHQ</A>
But, then, you knew that already, didn't you?
i am a grad student. i was ta'ing a class that required the students to use a math package that only ran in windows. i was having the students submit/store their homework via ftp to my linux box. i wanted them to be able to always have access to their files so they could work on their assignments and fetch their grades.
the problem was that i needed to grade the homework in windows. so i tried vmware (too slow), but wine worked really well execpt the greek fonts used in mathcad really got screwed up.
re: 1) since i am a grad student i have very little extra money in the bank to devote to a new computer so that i can run this one windows program. this makes wine very important.
re:2) 90$ oem/$300 retail for an shrinkwrapped pile crap seems like alot to me.
re:3) i would prefer not to steal software even a steaming pile like windows.
john
-- john
You'd at least expect a shag for $800.
I know alot of people waiting for Wine to work perfectly...from what I have heard, it is on Version 2+ but still doesn't support alot. (I know its hard to support every app out there).
So the question is...is Wine ready to be used extensively? Should we be premoting it?
"Imagination is the only weapon in the war against reality." -Jules de Gautier
I totally agree that an OS is a tool to get a job done (or have fun, or whatever).
However, the idealogy of the tool is just as important as the tool, I think. That is why GNU software is so important and why RMS makes such a big deal about the difference between Open Source Software and Free Software (not to mention proprietary software).
What is the use of having a nice tool if you cannot make improvements to the tool and/or share those improvements with the world?
Nothing can possiblai go wrong. Er...possibly go wrong.
Strange, that's the first thing that's ever gone wrong.
Tyler's words coming out of my mouth.
For well over a year now Wine has had a correct, nice looking logo which you can view on www.winehq.com yet Slashdot insists on using the ugly, insulting, modified Windows logo.
I hate to get bent over something this trivial, but somebody's gotta.
-Ian, wine-developer, but probably not speaking for all of 'em.
Quoting the poster of the story (that would be CmdrTaco)...
I'm sick of having to run Diablo2 on my crappy old laptop w/o 3D Acceleration since it's my only windows box
Remember yesterday (I think), everyone said: "What do you mean you won't take reviews of online movies if you can't view them under linux? What do you mean you have 'no way to view them'? How do you play Diablo2?"
Maybe he was listening.. His "only" Windows machine is a "crappy old laptop w/o 3d acceleration" that he uses for diablo2. Guess he told everyone.
Garpenlov
--Not ashamed of any OS he runs
--- Where's my X.400 protocol decoder?
There isn't a need to have word working on linux, simply because there are other programs that are written for linux AND can read the DOC format. I can think of one straight off(StarOffice) and know that there are others. It is still a shame that people insist on sending mails with word attachments. Personally I would have sent the reply in StarOffice format and see what they did with it.
Since when was a laptop a box ?
See link.
Just out of curiosity, what functionality of Quicken do you use that's so far beyond GnuCash?
Your right to not believe: Americans United for Separation of Church and
WINE's first priority should be running ridiculously overpriced bloatware from a company made infamous for its repeated misuse of undocumented APIs
That ridiculously overpriced bloatware (which, to be fair, it is) controls 90-95% of the office software market share. There are a lot of companies that want to keep that bloatware but remove Windows, and would switch to linux if they new Office ran on it. That is why it is priority #1. Frankly, though, I am disappointed that Quicken and other Intuit products aren't as high up.
Disclamer - Opinion of Person
[TheDullBlade is crushed under a pile of 10,000 penguins that inexplicably falls from the ceiling]
they're in 5.0 right now, and i'm pretty sure it can read the latest stuff. it is red-hat-centric though, the installation is rpm-based.
"Please, how about a little less love and a little more common decency?" - Kurt Vonnegut jr.
HEY DIPSHIT!!
now, emulation never matches the real thing (except for gran turismo on Bleem... mmmm) and dual booting windows can't be all that taxing for most people. the only good applications of wine i can see
Do you READ before you POST??!?! At least SIXTEEN PEOPLE have pointed out that WINE is *NOT* emulation!!
Maybe you could save us your blathering redundancies by actually CAREFULLY PERUSING THE ARTICLES like the rest of us instead of just KARMA WHORING by posting the FIRST THOUGHT that comes into your pea-sized brain!
YOU SUCK!!!
Exactly... my linux box is also my NAT router/firewall, as well as my web/mail server. I can't take it down without affecting the other systems (granted, I'm usually the one using them...). Rebooting isn't the greatest solution, especially when you consider the amount of drive space you end up wasting to install another OS for just a few programs.
"It's tough to be bilingual when you get hit in the head."
Word View Ware made Wordview, a MS Word 8 conversion tool for Unix.
Hey, you stupid dumb fuck!
I've got a question for you: WHY would I want to partition off my hard drive into tiny chunks and leave gigantic gaps of unusable space when I could just run everything on one fucking file system!? Why should I have to reboot my fucking computer every time I want to play Diablo II, and then reboot it again to read my email??!
Maybe you should get your head out of your ass!!
i do agree also that's it's quicker to write a 3 line Perl script than to reboot to windows, start Word, and reboot back.
SB Live $37
TNT2 $35
System board $45
P3 800 $362
128MB Memory $115
19" Monitor $229
20GB HD $89
Midsize ATX case WITH power $18
GRAND TOTAL OF SYSTEM: $893
I could have chosen refurbished, or used equipment to shave it down to around $600 or so, since this IS just a 'gaming machine' which you wont really give a crap about... Sure, whine certain aspects arent that great, whatever, get a P3 600 or something, get a celeron, overclock it to 900mhz for sixty bucks, whatever..
Fact is, this shit is CHEAP. Go buy one already you twits.
I eat the flesh off the living, and I vote!
He's kind of saying that it is useless to feel strongly about *software* And that guy doesn't seem to feel THAT strongly, since he is running a windows machine at all. You have to be pragmatic about these things. If you feel so strongly about not running Windows, then I'm sure you have the willpower to simply not play Diablo 2.
A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...
If you type at anything more than 60 wpm, it's faster to type, say:
[ESC]:%s/foo/bar/[Enter]
... than it is to navigate most text editor or wordprocessor GUIs (even using only keystrokes) to do the same thing.
(n.b., the [ESC] is supposed to denote one keystroke, making that a total of 14 keystrokes. That's a fixed overhead of 8 keystrokes, and no modifiers.)
DNA just wants to be free...
[Begin usual rant]
Until linux makes some major changes, you won't get many average people converting. Its just too damn hard to setup when you have stuff like BeOS and [shudder] windows which sets everything up itself. Prime example is my computer. I've been building my own computers since 8th grade, so I like to think I know something about them. I have all mainstream components in the beforementioned computer. Everything works great in BeOS (my OS of choice if you haven't been able to figure it out), I've changed hardware and upon the next boot, it automatically configured everything (I won't mention boot times or stability in this post).
But alas, poor *nix. I've tried three different Linux distros and various versions of FreeBSD as well. And not with one could I get everything configured and working properly. Not even the damn NIC in some linuxes. I mean, come on! This is a 3com NIC here, nothing unusal. I've spent more than a week on linux, trying to configure things, following every instruction I could find to the letter. But nothing worked. Now, if a relatively advanced user can't set something up, and the vast majority of companies only sell Microsoft preinstalled to the end users, what makes anybody think Linux can gain a toehold in the consumer arena?
P.S. I am well aware that BeOS has only a slightly better chance than Linux to make a dent in the Gorilla's market share. M$ is just too big to challenge significantly any time soon. But, if for some reason the gorilla should fall, I think BeOS has a better chance than Linux, because its infinetely easier to setup. End users don't care if its open source. They don't care its "Linux!" They just want the gosh-darned thing to work.
Linux is only free if your time is worth nothing.
Long Live Be!
Linux is only Free if your time is worth Nothing
Linux is only free if your time is of no value
Be in Your Senses
Not that funny. I always wanted UAE for my Amiga. (To run untrusted or A3000-incompatable stuff.)
---
As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
I think you answered your own question in your opening statement. "OK, Corel is using WINE to port their Windows applications to Linux...." They're porting existing Windows apps. At this point in time, the software most people use is/was written for Windows. Wine gives users of those products a choice in operating systems until the vendors can get their Linux act together. The problem with this strategy for the Linux community is that there is no automatic feedback to the software companies as to which platform their product is being run on unless, like Corel, they begin to distribute a Linux version that installs the package with hooks into Wine. Without that feedback it just looks like they're selling more windows software and may choose to ignore the needs of some unknown segment of their user base. The only other alternative is for the user community to voice their desire for a Linux version of the package even if we get it running under Wine. It will take a lot of feedback since I'm sure they get requests from the Linux 'zealots' already.
carlos
--
As a matter of fact, I am a lawyer. But I play an actor on TV.
CmdrTaco is a Linux advocate. That's great, more power to him. He obviously tries to avoid using Windows if at all possible. It's funny that the one reason he will boot Windows is to play a game. But he won't boot Windows to review submissions to slashdot.
It appears that the biggest need for WINE is to play Windows games on Linux. Is that what the WINE developers had in mind?
Everything in this post is false.
The Wine team is certainly interested in adding CPU emulation at some point, but a lot of other things need to be cleaned up first. There's some promising early work going on now with using WineLib to compile Windows programs on SPARC Solaris, and that will only help future portability.
Why does the CPU emulator need to be a part of WINE? Couldn't something be fashioned similar to the x86 emulator for Alpha-Linux?
"If you want full Unix functionality, go use a Unix machine. A PC-based version of Unix will prolly never match Unix itself, so what's the point?" I'm glad not everyone is willing to throw in the towel as easy as you.
--
I think there is a world market for maybe five personal web logs.
Or better, comma-separated value (CSV) format. But, from the sounds of things, they have fancy macros and such in this "timecard". Ick.
My employer's solution is to make it irrelevant -- we're all salaried, which means the company owns us.
--Joe--
Program Intellivision!
For compatibility, mostly. New pre-Windows users are used to Office, having Office on Linux makes it easier for them. Certain legal companies and publishers require documents to be in Office format. There are MS Word converters for Unix, but having the full application can still be nice.
Hey, fuck off!
I think there's something vaguely communist about having your entire filesystem exposed to the whole world!! Shit! If any 15 year old CRACKER can GET ACCESS to your files through a fucking PAPERCLIP BUDDY or some other HALF-ASSED PIECE OF SHIT EXPLOIT, then that sounds like COMMUNISM to me!!
Sharing things you DON'T REALLY WANT TO... the basic principle of both KINDERGARTEN.. and COMMUNISM.
Go to hell!
Two reasons I can think of:
:-)
- Linux is not yet a proven market in most companies' minds, and a Wine/WineLib port allows them to "test the waters" for a full Qt or GTK or whatever port. This is Deneba's Canvas strategy - if there is substantial interest as a WineLib app they'll commit manpower to do a full native port. If not, they're out a couple engineer's time for about 3 months. That's not bad at all considering
- Many Windows programs are old-but-profitable codebases which have never seen the light of a non-Windows API. (There are obvious exceptions: Canvas also was available for MacOS, Photoshop's been seen on IRIX, and so on). For stuff like that WineLib makes an excellent crutch or scaffolding to get things working on Linux and then strip off the Windowsisms. I ported a large MFC-based application in just that way a few months back. I got it working as WineLib, then gradually converted it to all native Linux calls and a Qt/KDE user interface.
i remembered that when i read that german wine was a poor substitute for french wine in the above post.
personally, i dont drink wine much. my girlfriend does, but she prefers plum wine.
(hey, at least it was on the same topic as the parent post, even if they're both off topic)
Darth --
Nil Mortifi, Sine Lucre
Unfortunately because the general populous thinks that the .DOC is the standard it becomes the standard. I have had several occations where I have called up a place to see if they could send me information in a format OTHER than .DOC. No one seems to know what a postscript file is these days. If people transfered files in .ps, .pdf, or even .dvi I would be much happier but that doesn't happen.
.dvi's or .ps.
It doesn't help that MS Windows doesn't come with any way of creating standardized formats like
.DOC is a standard because the general populous thinks it is.
Disclamer - Opinion of Person
Look at it as maintaining backward compatability for apps written for an archaic platform. When everyone has switched to Linux, there will still be a few people needing software for outdated platforms. (i.e. Windows.)
More seriously, I agree that discouraging native apps is certainly a danger. But, considering the rate of progress on WINE, it's not an immediate danger---at the moment, trying to run most Windows apps under WINE is an act of experimentation/desperation. The bigger danger IMO, is that people don't switch to Linux because of lack of apps and the fickle press loses interest in an alternative OS, killing the momentum that Linux currently has. If Linux popularity builds, native apps will come, whatever support there might be for Windows software.
It seems to me that there's a balance to be struck here. I don't think Windows emulation should be a top priority of the Linux community as a whole---I'd rather see free software types working on native apps. But given that the WINE team is a limited section of people coding productively on a difficult project that could make migration to Linux pain-free for the average user, I'm not inclined to look a gift horse in the mouth. And, since 100% of my real work goes on under Linux, I find the occasional reboot to run something Windows-only extremely painful. I'd like to see WINE working flawlessly.
Maybe because Office is better than all the native applications? Office is better than Applix, AbiWord, etc, and most parts of it are better than WordPerfect Suite (except word.)
A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...
Don't get me wrong, I use MS-Word all the time, and I think it is one of the best word processors out there (after Nissus Writer, which is Mac-only so no good on my x86 boxes). I actually like the red and green squiggly lines under my errors, because I'm the sort of person who likes to edit on the fly when I type. It is remarkably over-priced, but just about anybody can steal^H^H^H^H^Hborrow a copy from where they work.
My point was that vi editing is vastly more powerful, versitile, and fast than the offerings of the various GUI methods of playing with text... once you learn it. Sometimes that point is easiest to make by giving an example.
Information wants to be anthropomorphized.
I'm sick of having to run Diablo2 on my crappy old laptop w/o 3D Acceleration since it's my only windows box).
:)
I thought you were like, a millionare or something. Why don't you just buy a better laptop
Btw, what are some good laptops w 3d?
ReadThe ReflectionEngine, a cyberpunk style n
How successful was the running of Quicken 99? My girlfriend is thinking of switching herself and her parents over to Linux but they depend heavly on Quicken. If it runs without too much of a hitch then I'm sure she will be extremely happy to hear that.
.DLLs or Wine only?
Are you running with native
Disclamer - Opinion of Person
-- http://thegirlorthecar.com funny dating game for guys
Plus, OS/2 already runs DOS and Windows 3.1 apps better than any other OS out there. It runs XFree86 and several *nix apps have already been ported to OS/2 (Gimp, Apache, MySQL, and thousands more). Not only that, but Everblue is working on adding Linux compatibility to OS/2.
It looks to me like Project Odin is far more interesting than Wine. All of this awesome work being done every day for OS/2 is the reason why I still use it.
--
--
And the men who hold high places must be the ones who start
To mold a new reality... closer to the heart
As stated in the other replies WINE not an EMU and lets the software take advantage of the hardware and is not held back by another layer of software to translate and so forth. If you are interesting in running an emulation under Linux to run Windows apps more stable but at a greater performance hit you want www.vmware.com and you can run what you want under it and not crash as often but at the cost of speed. WINE will give you that speed when they get all the kinks worked out.
While I'm notone of Gates gratest fans, I must agree that Microsoft Office running under Linux in a stable and sane matter would be great for selling managers linux. Whats a few hundred in licenses compared to the cost of training secrateries and clerks. As an additional bonus, a large majority of your IT staff will happily install star office or kde office or whatever.
--- Justin Dearing http://www.justaprogrammer.net/ We're just programmers.
Have you forsaken the BeOS? Or are you not the same poster who's sig used to be "/.ing for the BeOS?"
Actually it wouldn't. DirectX in Windows 2000 is unadultered, bonafied, wholesome, god-given, 100% pure DirectX. Without the superlatives it means that DirectX on Win2K bypasses the HAL so it works similarly to the one in Win9x. However, Linux doesn't offer this kind of direct access so those games that depend on it won't run.
A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...
--
fixme:winsock:_get_sock_fd handle 0 is not a socket (GLE 6) and fixme:dsound:IDirectSound3DListenerImpl_CommitDefe rredSettings stub
________
1995: Microsoft - "Resistance is futile"
Why do they make you do time cards in Excel? What's wrong with paper?
Oh, and rxvt is by far the fastest way i've found to run a bash prompt.
Please ignore my complete irrelevance.
-legolas
i've looked at love from both sides now. from win and lose, and still somehow...
Even if it was drawn with GIMP for Eunuchs, they could still claim it was made with WinGIMP because they both write something like "Made with GIMP" in the JPEG/G*F comments.
Will I retire or break 10K?
most people who actualy use windows know that you don't need to do this.
ReadThe ReflectionEngine, a cyberpunk style n
And however good Wine is, it will never be as good as Win32 on Win32. That's just a fact.
Well, is this necessarily true, I wonder? Can't Linux's efficiency close the gap, and possibly even one day beat MS at their own game?
Yes. Let this be a lesson to all of you: get your rabies shots.
I think the point about game performance is very well taken. However, the opposite is also true. As far as I'm personally concerned, you don't need anything more than a K6-3 450 to do office tasks. Mail merges don't need a PIII-800 with PC-800 rdram and the i840 to run well.
Given the average hardware spec today, running office apps under WINE may be slower, but won't it still be more than fast enough for almost all normal tasks?
Thank you.
The fact that an inferior product commands 90-95% of the office software market is symptomatic of a greater illness, a disease called "proprietary file formats". We should be attacking the agent responsible for the disease instead of simply treating the symptoms. WINE is like smoking cigarettes to cure cancer.
being that there are many anti-windows people here on slashdot, my question is "is porting the windows API to linux a noble cause?"
if you want full windows functionality, it seems that dual-booting is a smarter option. WINE will prolly never match windows, so what's the point?
"I hope I don't make a mistake and manage to remain a virgin." - Britney Spears
Hate is a strong word.
"War is God's way of teaching Americans geography." - Ambrose Bierce (1842-1914)
Comment removed based on user account deletion
I disagree. I used this product on a friends machine and found it to be VERY buggy. Importing a Word document worked fine, typing new stuff in too, but the all important "save" didn't. Four hours of work, blam, gone b/c CO2k didn't like to save it in *any* readable format. A file was there and it had substance (like 20k) but CO2k wouldn't read it, nor would Word...
You don't :) Without basing the system API on something like COM (like DirecX does) it isn't really feasible to upgrade the API. However, I think the UNIX way to avoid it is to simply add a new API. Take a look at all the baggage APIs in Linux. You have POSIX, you have some SystemV APIs you have X, you have GNOME, you have Motif, you have KDE, you have TK, TCL, ncurses, ad nauseum.
A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...
No, this is completely false. Win32 is an API, not an ABI. WINE is "emulating" Win32 in the same way that GGI is "emulating" GGI. Microsoft's Win32 and WineHQ's WINE just happen to be different implementations of the same API.
That said, WINE does come with an emulator which, confusingly enough, they called "wine".
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Well linux is also about choice .. for example windows has maybe 2 versions of icq , just from apt-cache search icq , i get about 10 clients and thats just some of 'em.
supporting games in linux with WINE is not necessarily a good ideal to shoot for. At it's best, it's crappy windows emulation with worse performance, at it's worst, it's an excuse for game coders to say "bah - they've got wine, why code fo linux now?"
I think that aiming to support the "latest and greatest" windows game shouldn't be the aim of WINE. Hands up all those people that have a copy of MAME or C64 emulator running on their machine....same thing will apply to windows games. It will be the no-longer-supported applications & games that will get the most attention with WINE since, at the current rate of growth linux WILL have enough market share to ensure that new software is written for linux. Old stuff doesn't really have any performance issues....just bugs.
"I have been around the world and found that only stupid people are breeding" -- Harvey Danger
How about this, given a list of names, addresses, and phone numbers (not always in that order, but one per line), I want find everybody who lives in east Bloomington, MN (zip code 55420) and replace their old area code (612) with the new one (952) to reflect the changes.
In Windows: Alt-f to each line with 55420 and visually grep where the area code is, then paste 952 over it and move on to the next one, and the next, and the next... Or spend the day formatting it properly so you can export it to a database like MS Access.
Now let's do that in UNIX:
Step one: type "g/55420/s/(612)/(952)/g"
Step two: there's no step two, unless you want to take a coffee break and go laugh at your company's NT admin.
(Note: some flavors of *n?x or various shells might spell "find-every-line-with-this-and-replace-that-with-s omething" differently, but they can all do it.)
Information wants to be anthropomorphized.
One thing that really offends me about Microsoft is that they already had an OS in which so many things were actually done more or less right, and they deliberately decided to re-implement them wrong when they extended DOS.
--
Ancient Goth: Someone who overthrew the Roman Empire.
Time is Nature's way of keeping everything from happening at once... the bitch.
$100 Windows tax? I guess you aren't one of the thousands running Windows ME right now. hehehe :P
:P ), yet they make a working OS that is easilly accessible by anyone and highly supported. Don't agree? Well then just think what would happen if every copy of Windows just dissapeared and everyone was forced to switch to Linux, no matter what their computer experience is.
And I'm not against Linux or any other alternate OS. Its just that alot of people just like it because its Linux and bitch and moan that nothing gets ported to it, yet do nothing to contribute to solving the problem. Even worse are the ones that are TOTALLY anti-MS, which is a load of crap right there. Sure some of the stuff Microsoft says and does is stupid (laughable sometimes
And believe it or not, the operating system IS something that you want a monopoly with. Without it developers wouldn't know what OS to port their software to, leaving tons of people being shafted because they dont have the correct OS. Just look at the PC/Mac situation right now.
Maybe CmdrTaco's laptop is at home, and he reviews submissions from work.
Everything in this post is false.
Isn't that something akin to "Man Bites Dog"?
If tits were wings it'd be flying around.
Perhaps this could be hackd with configuration-time options.
No matter what your intent is, you write for Windows first. Whatever thing you use, the system that the program was one first will be the better port. Thus, if you care about your customers you write to Windows because your customers (statistically) all use Windows. If you care about selling software, you write to Windows, because (again) your customers are using Windows.
A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...
Then fricken partition one of your other damn computers and put Windows on it. Or, here is a novel idea, buy another computer! A cheap computer that could run Diablo would cost less than $500, if that (without monitor).
You Linux devotees are worse than anything or one Microsoft produces. You just blindly use Linux and follow the community no matter what the consequences. Shitty software? Shitty drivers? Shitty support? Who cares, it's not Microsoft!
If you fail to see that Microsoft isn't the damn devil and acctually produces worthwhile products (win2k) then you deserve to be playing Diablo 2 on a shitty laptop. If at all.
Related: Are there any status updates on MainWin for Linux? It'd be nice to see that as an easy and well-proven method for porters.
wine is emulation.
when you run wine, your it allows your linux computer to run like a windows machine. think about it. if windows software runs under wine, which isn't windows, then that means that wine is emulating windows. how about we all pick up a dictionary and look up the word "emulate"
"I hope I don't make a mistake and manage to remain a virgin." - Britney Spears
If enough people use it, it is indeed a standard.
--
No kidding. My main machine (== my fastest and best equipped) is a meager K6-233 with 96 MB RAM. Wine is a little slow (I reboot to 'doze for serious work), but it's heaps faster than VMWare, which just barely runs on the machine. (And, since I have a K6, VMWare constantly reminds me that there are incompatibilities between Win95 and my CPU.) When I upgrade my CPU though, I'll definitely buy VMWare because I won't know the speed difference - VMWare should run Win95 at least as fast as my current K6-233.
As for a GPL HomeSite work-alike, try Screem. Its very similar, an while it doesn't have some of the more obscure features of HomeSite (yet), it has quite a few really nifty ones of its own. Plus, it is progressing extremely quickly.
In Windows: Alt-f to each line with 55420 and visually grep where the area code is, then paste 952 over it and move on to the next one, and the next, and the next...
Of course, it depends on witch software you're using, but in word we have the nice little "replace" tab.
Now, not everyone is going to want to learn all these archaic commands. What if you're little command line thing fucks up the file? Would you be able to undo with a ctrl-z like you could in word?
Anyway, still, word is not designed for editing text files in the same way Unix commands do. Word is for "documents", that is, writing nicely formatted English (or other language) text for other humans. Not huge lists of phone numbers. Any self-respecting Office user would use Excel (or Access) for a list like that.
We don't know how bad things are in north korea, but here are some pictures of hungry children. -- CNN
ReadThe ReflectionEngine, a cyberpunk style n
It's simple really - you're obviously not a "relatively advanced user". I'm all for BeOS or whatever floats your boat. But if you have supported hardware, and you can't get it to work after a week, don't call yourself advanced as a tactic in your FUD campaign.
XML causes global warming.
Yes, NT passes the POSIX criteria. No, these criteria are not useful, and rumor has it the POSIX subsystem was added for checkmark compatibility with federal procurement guidelines.
It may be worthwhile to check the criteria for the "designed for Window NT" logo, and slap one on every Linux distro in sight. :-)
Bert Driehuis -- All I asked was a friggin' rotatin' chair. Throw me a bone here, people.
WINE may never be able to run programs quite as fast as Windows, but supposing that the Linux equivalents of the DLL's used by Windows apps are faster, it actually is theoretically possible that it could run programs FASTER. The steps are translation, not emulation.
:P
Well, calling DLL functions isn't very slow, but on the other hand, if you havn't got more then 256 megs of ram, just about everything is slow in windows
Some windows app on a 32meg linux box is going to be a lot faster then some windows app on a 32meg win98 box.
ReadThe ReflectionEngine, a cyberpunk style n
I was replying to the guy who was swapping hard drives rather than just duel booting.
Of course you shouldn't have to reboot your fucking computer every time I want to play Diablo and then reboot it again to read your email!!! Or whatever.
Why should WINE be used to run Office? It requires the X86 architecture, so, it's not going to run Office on a computer that CAN'T run office. I think that GAMES should be first. If you want to run M$ products, you might as well run them under their operating system. GAMES are one of the few things that Linux doesn't have a version of (yeah, quake and doom and tetris, I mean Swat 3! I gotsta have my SWAT 3!) At any rate, I run a dual boot so I can run my games, but many of THOSE can be run under WINE too! JOY!
Eh...
Well, if Quicken under Wine won't work for you, the Mac emulator Executor is currently shipping with Quicken 6.0 (Mac version, of course). It's a strange way to do it, but not too bad of a deal for $75.
Personally, I'm a little dubious of the WINE project. In many ways, it's always felt like a open-src version of Sun's WABI, and we all know where WABI ended up -- nowhere fast.
The problem I see is that MS will always fiddle with the OS-level APIs, in order to improve things for their applications. There's no way around this, and it's MS's proprietary API, so the WINE guys just have to play catch-up.
I seem to remember another Win-on-UNIX attempt years ago with Locus Merge, which at the time was pretty cool, as it did a full DOS+Win3.1 compatible environment in UnixWare. I thought it was pretty neat watching Win3.1 run inside an X-Window. But I always had DOS/Win systems available at the time, so I never really used Merge, and, after a while, forgot all about it.
Hey, I'm technical! The problem is, I can't take the time to rewrite the timecard thing (which is more than just checkmarks, btw--it's got drop downs and calendaring and stuff in there).
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Linux MAPI Server!
http://www.openone.com/software/MailOne/
(Exchange Migration HOWTO coming soon)
If you look at the poll, one of the choices was "MS-Outlook." Correct me if I'm wrong, but shouldn't that have been included under Running MS Office?
Being with you, it's just one epiphany after another
WINE may never be able to run programs quite as fast as Windows, but supposing that the Linux equivalents of the DLL's used by Windows apps are faster, it actually is theoretically possible that it could run programs FASTER. The steps are translation, not emulation.
It's almost certaintly the case that there will be applications which run faster under WINE then under Windows on the same machine. There probably won't be many, but there should be some. There certaintly are some Linux apps that run faster under FreeBSD's Linux compatability mode (StarOffice was one of them a year ago). Don't think of WINE as Windows Emulation, think of it as a windows compatability mode. Sure, there's some translation going on (some of it quite significant), but the really critical things like basic math and data structure manipulation is going on in native code.
-- Brooks
-- Any statement of the form "X is the one, true Y" is FALSE.
True there is Linux software that can replace Windows software. But I have to fill out a "timecard" in Excel and then email it to HR. Do I want to recreate all the Excel macros in, say, StarOffice and then hope I can export an Excel file to email in? No.
--
Linux MAPI Server!
http://www.openone.com/software/MailOne/
(Exchange Migration HOWTO coming soon)
I'm using wine at work in a development-type setting. I can't bear to do my work under the constraints of Windows (although other programmers are fine/used to it) so I was allowed to use Linux and run certain required apps under Wine.
:)
Thank goodness for wine!
supporting games in linux with WINE is not necessarily a good ideal to shoot for. At it's best, it's crappy windows emulation with worse performance, at it's worst, it's an excuse for game coders to say "bah - they've got wine, why code fo linux now?"
Additionally, there are a lot more games coming out for linux now than ever before - alot of the top games are now available for linux, and although i never really liked diablo, i REALLY want to see a half-life client. - GIMME MY FSCKING COUNTER-STRIKE IN LINUX DAMNIT!!!! Anyway, the place we need to be looking is just all around kick-ass compatibility/ability to use generic windows software. Office would be nice, but we do have several alternatives there. I would personally like to see programs like Mplayer and Acid or ReBirth with better support. I have, though, seen wine go from a puny little program that helped you run windows apps like minesweeper, into a powerful tool that even professional coders (like the folks at Corel) are using. The guys at wine should keep doing what they're doing and we'll see wine go exactly where it needs to go.
FluX
After 16 years, MTV has finally completed its deevolution into the shiny things network
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once." -David Hume
It's been a little hard to keep track of WINE because some things work on an older version and
then break in the later version.
For example, running Starcraft. It worked for about an hour for me before totally locking up my machine. As far as I could tell, Battlenet never worked.
Has anyone ever gotten Tribes or Diablo 2 working under WINE?
It's come a long way since its inception, but it has a long way to go. The only game I ever got running properly in WINE was Unreal.
Fialar
I guess you've never used Virtual PC for Mac? It is very cool Nice for those nights I need to bring home PC-only projects (I only have Mac and Linux running at home).
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"I got three words for you: Learn to fucking type"
Powerbook G4/1.5GHz 12", Toshiba Satellite 1135-S1554
By not caring.
Seriously.
If an API change breaks an app, so what -- as long as the change is The Right Thing? Let the vendor change the application.
Linux (by which I mean the main kernel development) is not a commercial venture, and it doesn't *have* to pander to commercial interests.
I know it's not for everybody, but if you have a great employer like I do who will buy you a whole server and expensive software to run on it, then citrix metaframe is a wonderful solution. All I need to run is a very light-weight Linux client (works on BSD too with linuxcompat), and I have all the MS software I need right there in my X server. I can do all the Outlook/Word/Excel crap I need to, without ever worrying about rebooting or hogging resources or not having the full functionality of the software. I can even cut and paste from an xterm to NT without any extra effort.
Those guys at Citrix really did a great job, it's saved my uptimes and the NT guys can worry about all the email viruses I open with Outlook. HA!
Wouldn't be to hard. Quite easy at runtime too. Its just a set of flags that give capabilities. Maybe it is by now.
I agree with the first half of the sentence, but not with the second. After all, in previous slashdot articles, a rough consensus seems to exist. It says that the main reason Office workalikes have troubles being compatible with Office files, is that the file formats rely heavily on undocumented arcana, as evidenced by Office's incompatibilities with slightly older version of itself.
Contrary to popular belief, most of these arcana are just that, rather than actual bugs. Trying to be compatible with them is a lost cause.
Besides, I'm not sure I even want to emulate that stoopid paperclip, but that's a seperate issue.
Bert Driehuis -- All I asked was a friggin' rotatin' chair. Throw me a bone here, people.
Wine is apparently approching a stable 1.0 release sometime in the next several months, I believe (my source is previous Wine news updates on WineHQ).
A 1.0 release won't mean everything will be complete, but it will mean tha a known set of application will work with it. The most frustrating thing about Wine is how applications may work in one version, not the next version since the code is always changing. As a result, one often has to have several versions of Wine loaded for specific applications that run well with that particular version.
If the gamers market moves over to Linux, and native Linux games run faster than wine-emulated counterparts, then there's money to be made in native Linux apps. If a native port gains nothing then there's no point anyhow, since either 'Windows is fast enough', or 'Linux isn't good enough yet'. :-)
John
John_Chalisque
No, of course not. I'm not claiming to be a unix guru, but, I know my way around my computer hardware wise. I looked every freaking place I could online for instructions on how to get things to work. Know what? Instructions didn't work. Linux can go to hell as far as I'm concerned. End user DOES NOT if its open source, or if its linux, or whatever. They want something that works when they turn it on, no tweaking required. You certianly get that in Be. Hell, you even get that in Windoze. DEAL WITH IT PEOPLE, LINUX WILL NOT EXIST ON THE TYPICAL USER'S DESKTOP IN ITS CURRENT STATE
*can turn computer on and off, dial and sign into normal, non-AOL ISP, use word processor of choice, and can install and use other non-pre-installed software. Reasonable defintion of "Average User"?
Linux is only Free if your time is worth Nothing
Linux is only free if your time is of no value
Be in Your Senses
That's not correct really. If enough people use it, you could call it an "industry standard" or a "de facto standard" but it is not correct to call it a "standard" unless a recognized standards setting body (e.g. IEEE) has recognized it as a standard.
Why waste good hardware running Windows? Sure, CmdrTaco, or even me, for instance could afford a 'decent computer' for Windows. But why?
And consider that every new time M$ released a new DirectX, That bit of wine would need a rewrite.
is this true or am I talking out of my rear end?
skiy. www.Smokedot.org Drug Info, Rights, Laws, and Discussion
Combine this:
1. Corel is trying to port Photopaint to Linux using the winelib
2. Corel is (co)developing WINE
Now how could it be so that Photopaint only uses calls that work with WINE?
The ideologoy of a tool? WOW! no wonder I just don't get Open Source. If I'm buying a ratchet, I just buy the best ratchet for the money. I pay my taxes, pay (a little) attention to politics, vote, and expect the collective will of the people, expressed through their elected officials, to keep rampant captalism gone wild in check. Kinda like in this whole anti-trust thing.... I guess I'm just hopelessly naive.
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DO NOT DISTURB THE SE
I agree that VMware is a MUCH better way to go... I have been running NT4 for about a year now with no problems at all (K6/2-450, 256Mb - 64Mb for NT). Yes, you do need RAM (128Mb min). But then, hardware is free (when compared to all the other costs). If you billed yourself $50/hour (not unreasonable for this techy type work) for all that time you spend trying to get Wine working half as well as a VMware solution would, it wouldnt take long for WMware to pay for itself, and the extra RAM! Put VMware in, install DOS/Windows and then go to the beach. Much better idea!
What Linux software replaces Office, pray tell? I love Star Office, and it is great that it is avaliable free, but it just isn't as good as MS Office. It has fewer options and it is generally less slick. One of the main things I use MS word for when I am not writing papers is doing large "search and replace" jobs. I write a little macro and then sit back as it parses all my text for me. Star Office doesn't seem to have this capability in nearly the strength that MS does.
But actually, the only thing that makes me want to run windows right now is Nintendo emulation. I need my NES, and linux emulators just don't cut it yet. When I can have Nesticle quality emulation under Linux, I will be happy.
Lots of Mac fans use Virtual PC to run those programs that are only available for Windows. Seems to me that Wine would be an excellent way to get Linux fans access to the services that only Windows supports, and would also give Win users an easy upgrade path to Linux if they so desire.
sulli
sulli
RTFJ.
MainWin, at least as of a year ago, was complete and utter crap. I worked for a company which was paying an absurd price to use MainWin, and the stability was pitiful. It's unstable because it's essentially Windows NT compiled on top of Unix, and it's expensive because Microsoft extracts a per-seat license from MainSoft who then passes the goodness on to you. If you are willing to pay Microsoft a per-seat licensing fee for every copy of your software that is sold...
I bought applix too around the time of Red Hat 4.1 Since then, I have had the same install running on Red Hat 4.2, SuSe 5.2, SuSe 6.0 and it's currently running on Suse 6.3.
You need only have retained everything under the applix install directory.
I have, however found that since the change from Red Hat 4.1, the applix daemon that runs when you run applix applications non interactively (via macros) no longer exits. You can get around this by having your macro kill the daemon off itself.
Regards
I'd like to run some Windows programs but not have a windows partition. I have tried before to install Windows DLL's on a Linux partition with mixed results - certainly nothing usable. Anyone else had much success? Please don't make me install a FAT32 partition! What about with Wine under FreeBSD?
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-- SIGFPE
A little info on WINE, it doesn't actually EMULATE. What it does do is allow for Windows executables to be loaded on the platforms that WINE is compiled under. It also feeds the applications with false information/conversions needed in order to operate under this environment. For instance, my C: drive is actually a FAT32 partition loaded under Linux. In the config file, it is /mnt/fat-c. When the program asks for the C: drive, WINE returns that mount point as if it were the C: drive. It can also pass info to my sound and networking capabilities.
.dll's and environment that Windows provides.
Interestingly, WINE just sort of started as a posting to a news group on letting Linux load Windows binaries, which it technically can with a little kernel hacking, it just won't actually RUN them if they need the
WINE may never be able to run programs quite as fast as Windows, but supposing that the Linux equivalents of the DLL's used by Windows apps are faster, it actually is theoretically possible that it could run programs FASTER. The steps are translation, not emulation.
Eh...
All of these markets have use for office products, but not all of them have the need for games.
Frankly, I would much rather run a game natively on MS then wine it for speed issues.
Disclamer - Opinion of Person
I think WINE is a project that has an overall goal of moving towards non-existance. Companies like Corel are moving toward linux using WINE. If I were a developer, I'd use WINE to "port" my Window$ projects to linux, basically to get my company name/software recognized in the linux community. Corel is going full force into WINE just to beat other companies to linux and gain name recognition. Once you have that, you can start taking the time to port your code natively to linux. When it comes to running WIndow$ apps under linux, I personally prefer VMWare just to give my alternate OS's a clean environment to run at their best. I think the life span of WINE is short, but it's significance is tremendous for the time being.
There is no reasonable defense against an idiot with an agenda
:wq
Your point is correct. It is a standard now. However, it is a very dangerous standard which is why I think many people object to it. It is dangerous because the "standard" format of information exchange around the world is now controlled by one corporation that does not let anyone else see the specification.
Regards
I work for people in the desktop publishing industrie and they can't migrate to Linux due to them using almost exclusivly two programs; Adobe PageMaker and Photoshop.
Some time ago I tried to make Photoshop work under WINE. I didn't succed, but came close enough to be impressed. So my question is this. Do these programs now work under Linux? If so, we could dualboot all the computers at work, and only keep a minimal Windows installation.
Since so much in this bussiness are depending on these two programs, it would mean a great deal for the Linux community if they could be run under Linux. (IMONSHO, of course ;-)
*hope*
I've learned all I know about politics from
If you think about it, once Microsoft is split into an OS and an Apps division, the Apps division will have less incentive to produce applications solely for Windows. It will go for the greatest market share, and with the rising number of Linux installations, it will be very profitable to produce Office for Linux.
Having said that, if MS get their way, with the lengthy appeals process ahead, MS may stay as one organism for a lot longer. Even so, the conduct remedies (if the Supreme Court uphold them), will open up the Windows APIs and source code, so that Wine will be able to make much greater progress.
For recent coverage of MS on Trial click here.
For archived coverage of MS on Trial, click here
Just a bit OT, but you may be interested to know that the latest release of Wine added calls and entry points for some Windows 1.1 & 2.0 functions! Now that's some backward compatibility!
Syllable : It's an Operating System
It's actually quite simple. The primary reason that Microsoft has to support old APIs in their programs is that they have too many customers that aren't willing to upgrade to newer versions of their OS, but they are willing to purchase newer versions of their applications. The two primary reasons that people don't upgrade are:
1) Upgrading Windows is costly.
2) Upgrading Windows is difficult.
Linux has both of these problems fairly well licked. Upgrading a Debian GNU/Linux system is as easy as "apt-get update ; apt-get dist-upgrade", and the price is quite reasonable :).
Linux also has a sane library versioning scheme that allows you to safely and easily install older versions of shared libraries. Your older applications will use then use the same libraries that they have always used, and your newer applications will use the newest fancy-dan versions.
Linux's library versioning strengths even extend to the development tools. Tools like GNU/autoconfigure were designed to port GNU programs between completely different architectures, keeping track of the difference between Linux versions is a comparative snap. Of course, this only helps you with software that comes with source code, but that covers just about all of the Linux software I use.
My guess is that application vendors will largely target distributions. In other words they will state that application Foo works with RedHat Linux versions 5.2+. Curious hackers will then find out what libraries the application actually depends on and they will install those libraries and run it on the distribution that they like best.
Are there any projects out there aiming at providing the Win32 API as a native linux library which implements these calls in terms of calls to the kernel/glibc/X/GTK+/etc....? I would think that a "native" Win32 API implementation would be far more useful. It would mean that vendors who write Win32 software could port their product with relatively minimal effort and probably not quite as huge a performance hit. They would basically just have to undo the MSVC++ specifics of their code and then recompile under linux/g++. As stated in the other posts (re: Corel/Wine/Porting), the goal is always that the vendor would then see the light and do a truly native port later . . .
11*43+456^2
Star Office replaces MS Office better than Nethack replaces Diablo II. Actually I like Nethack better, but you see what I was getting at? Large search and replace in MS Word?? Geeze, there are only 40 different quick ways to do this in Linux. For large search and replace in Windows I use textpad.
Where do you live man? For the machine you listed, I'm imagining at least $2000+. My P3 700, 128MB, DVD, SB Live, Geforce 256, 30GB HDD, and 19" monitor from Dell set me back $1700. Either you're on crack or I'm driving to where you live to get my next computer.
-Antipop
Had I a G4, I would be trying tonight :-)
Eh...
The lifespan of WINE will be for as long as both Windows and Linux exist. Corel has no plans to port natively. Corel has a history of "going back to its roots" (Microsoft) whenever the going gets tough. Word Perfect dropped support for both Amiga and Os2 and left users no choice but to switch to Windows to use Word Perfect. With WINE, they can have it both ways.
WINE will always be an inferior technology because Microsoft keeps changing the APIs for Windows. WINE can never keep up with these changes. However, WINE can be and already is "good enough" to get acceptable performance and looks for many applications. While Corel and some other companies have contributed a few programmers to the WINE Project, this costs them less than having to train their entire application programming staff to write native code for unix. So long a WINE exists, they will NEVER port to unix again (although they did produce a Motif version of Word Perfect which was much inferior to their Windows product).
In the short term this may gain Corel some users who need "Windows compatible" apps to use Linux, but in the long run WINE based products cannot be competetive with native ones. Even Java based applications (as the Java desktop becomes really vialbe) will be preferable. Java also has built in component architecture for application service providers to keep parts of apps on a local machine and parts on the network. Natively coded office suites (both free and commercial) will surpass Corel soon although Corel currently does have the most powerful suite.
The more things change the more they stay the same. Corel is a DOS/Windows company, period.
> If the WINE people had spent the
> last 4 years writing a replacement
> for office, it would be done by now.
Maybe they not only expected to have the original one running "as is" (for compatibility purposes, for example)..
BTW, if they had done this, there would still be a need for application/data interchange between Linux/Windows.
Whatever your advice on Windows should be, you won't convince Windows users to come to the Linux/BSD,etc. World if you don't offer them a way to execute any of the application they are used to. However crappy or excellent.
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Trolling using another account since 2005.
Or just an idiot who did things the hard way.
Cool ear/eye/face thingy now... (and the BeOS itself has a seperate logo too)
And I'm not against Linux or any other alternate OS. Its just that alot of people just like it because its Linux and bitch and moan that nothing gets ported to it, yet do nothing to contribute to solving the problem.
The biggest thing people could do to get things ported to Linux is stop using Windows forever and user Linux 100% of the time. If half of the population did this (yes, a far-fetched thought, but bear with me) then do you think that many more companies would be willing to support Linux?
Even worse are the ones that are TOTALLY anti-MS, which is a load of crap right there.
I am TOTALLY anti-MS. Might you care to explain to me why that is a "load of crap"?
Sure some of the stuff Microsoft says and does is stupid [ . . . ] yet they make a working OS that is easilly accessible by anyone and highly supported.
Woah, this one is a doozy.
And believe it or not, the operating system IS something that you want a monopoly with.
Opposed to all those other markets in which you don't want a monopoly? Your statement could not be much more obvious. All businesses want monopolies, for that implies that they don't have competitors!
Without it developers wouldn't know what OS to port their software to, leaving tons of people being shafted because they dont have the correct OS.
We don't need a monopoly for this; we need companies to comply with open standards. Now is when we notice that Microsoft has been aquiring more and more standards as of recently? What has became of OpenGL in light of Direct3D? Notice what they've done with Kerberos? Notice that they refer to the Win32 API as their "crown jewels"?
I don't make the rules. I just make fun of them.
Good job man!
Eh...
First you tell me that I HAVE to move to linux, then you tell me why I should be excited about running Windows under linux? Let me think now. Maybe if I JUST RAN WINDOWS IN THE FIRST PLACE I WOULDN'T HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT IT!!!!!
Hot grits forever
Yes, but... how 'bout making sed work correctly across lines... eeew...
:)
I love using sed when I can, but it has quite a number of limitations. Besides, did we mention that if you sed'ed your Excel or Access file you'd have a pretty broken file left over.
One of the other issues with cool little comand line utils such as these is that while they might be more efficient, for the majority of computer users they represent an insurmoutable (due most often to lack of time/interest rather than ability to learn) obstacle to actually accomplishing anything. That is, moving the mouse to Edit, then Search and Replace or whatever is faster than learning to use sed for the first time. You and I know that in the long run, it might make more sense to learn the more powerful tool, but that's not how the vast majority of users think.
To drift even more off topic, I'd say that this attitude is probably the single most important reason why Linux has a long way to before it stands a prayer of having wide use on the desktop.
Emacs is for experts. Pico is for beginners. VI is a disease.
... i never found their diff for the winelib modifications they made (some were very usefull in window managing) Aren't they supposed to release them by the GPL ?
Would you take a nice lampshade produced by slave labour? Cos most people usually say they wouldn't.
perl -e 'fork||print for split//,"hahahaha"'
Then just use connect n (where n is the number of the server, or IP/IPX addy).
Also, I've found the control under Counter-Strike to be horribly sluggish, making it nearly unplayable. Maybe it's improved some. I'll have to get the latest CVS when I have the time...
You are in a maze of twisty little relative jumps, all alike.
Um...it's a laptop. It's portable.
Granted, he might not want to cart it back and forth every day just so he can look at QuickTime videos.
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Zardoz has spoken!
Oper on the Nightstar
emulation can't get close to the real thing, no matter how good the code is
WINE is as much an emulator as Windows 2000 is for apps written for Windows 95. Each is simply an implementation of the same API.
Ooh, a sarcasm detector. Oh, that's a real useful invention.
The one, that really surprised m, was the freeze of de Windows install. I'd have guessed that would be the first thing to test. Oh well, maybe I just didn't find the right reading material to help me on that.
Stefan.
It takes a lot of brains to enjoy satire, humor and wit-
The truth shall make you fret. (Ankh-Morpork tImes motto)
Is this true of Be? For all hardware supported by other operating systems? No, of course not. You obviously hate Linux. People working on Linux know that it has deficiencies as a desktop target - hell, why do you think people are working on projects like Wine?
Of course, the fact that an average user would have problems installing Windows, BeOS, Linux, or any other OS on a system built without those OSes installed in no way disqualifies them as "desktop systems". Guess what? Installing an OS is not really an average user desktop task: sometimes it can be easy (I've had flawless installs of Linux, for example), and sometimes it can be hard (I've had major trouble installing Windows 98 on a computer that Linux ran on with no special tweeking), but the fact is that there are too many hardware variations and combinations out there, and too many potential conflicts for any OS to be able to garuantee that a fresh install will go perfectly smoothly for your "typical" user.
That's the thing, though. Installing an OS is not an average desktop user task. Most desktop systems either come a) preinstalled, or are supported by professionals with more skill than yourself (in the workplace). A preinstalled or IT shop OS can be Linux, BeOS, or whatever else is the best solution.
I just read your user info page - just about everything your submit works to the goal of promoting Be at the expense of bashing Linux. Why do you hate Linux so much? Why do you have such a personal interest in seeing Be succeed, no matter what the ethical cost involved? There are people who like Linux and are working to make it a good, open source, desktop solution. Why does this make you so angry? I've enver seen a Linux fan consistently bash BE in order to increase Linux mindshare, but if I do, I'd chastise him the same way I am doing to you.
Give it a rest, get a life already, sheesh.
XML causes global warming.
Care to share the details? (wine version, which native DLLs you're using, from what version of Windows, etc). I just tried Quicken 98 (thinking an older version might have fewer os-specific hacks), and I am having lots of problems with the file (new,open) dialogs inserting random crap in the path names. Also, it tried to install IE -- but the install process hung.
What if you want a 'u' in your document? Anyway, word is not a fucking text editor, its a 'document' editor. The requirements are very diffrent, as are the target users.
ReadThe ReflectionEngine, a cyberpunk style n
Some fonts are screwed up so Debt Reducer doesn't work properly (some buttons are off the dialog box and aren't visible). The wierdest part is that you MUST go to the Accounts list to select an account - you can't press the "link" on the "home page" because that in effect IS a URL and Wine doesn't cope with it very well, and complains with a dialog box: "http://qw.exe?___ not responding" or something like that.
I regularly use Scheduled transactions, the accounts registers, the Reconciliation part, reports, graphs (Net Worth and some others), the Calendar feature, and Budgeting. All work just fine in Wine. Otherwise, I wouldn't have switched to Wine from Win95.
I'll have to check to be sure, but I think I use all Wine DLLs except the Quicken-specific ones of course. I use GNOME and have an icon on my desktop (I wish I could use the Quicken 99 icon - anybody know how to rip an icon out of a .EXE?) to start "wine C:\\software\\quickenw\\qw.exe" so I don't see any of Wine's output any more. I am using a Wine build dated mid-June. At work I do a periodic Wine rebuild from the daily CVS (I download CVS then rebuild) and I sometimes take the resultant wineserver and wine executables home for an update.
As I said, it works great overall and I'm glad for it!
A quick side trip: I have the same resolution and background image for Win95 and GNOME. My icons are in similar places between the two interfaces, so my wife can't tell if the machine is running Win95 or Linux! It's kinda fun having it that close...even sometimes I have to do a double take, because my lone Windows app runs in both places, and it runs just as well either place.
Thanks, I'm glad someone noticed. One can only hope this gets caught in meta-moderation (if there is such a thing, I've seen it briefly mentioned to on this site). I think it was 2 different moderators, first it was put from 1 to 0 and then 0 to -1. People must be hard pressed to use their points. Whenever I get my points, redundant is one of the last things I look for, and I usually use it when 40 people are making the same insult about the same topic.
Actually this kind of thing should be easy to catch. They just have to check the database for any posts within the first 20 or so that have been moderated as redundant. I'm sure most of the time, it's not actually redundant.
Oh well down from 13 to 11 now.
"Replace" would not do the job I was describing. Read it again. Replace can only replace the word it is searching for; it can't seach for a string, and then edit a different string on the line where it finds it.
Almost every GUI text & document editor on the planet has a find-and-replace command. It is nothing special. It is basically a menu-option version of s///, but can't do anything like g//s///g, which is what my example was showing.
Like I said before, this is just one example of the many things that typical GUI editors can't do. If all you use your computer for is to write letters to grandma or Car And Driver articles, then Word will do fine. If you want to do any real heavy lifting, you should take the time to learn *n?x
Information wants to be anthropomorphized.
From 'Matrix' Parody: 'Computer Boy' ;).
note to story submittors: if video clips aren't viewable under Linux, I can't view them to consider them for posting, so don't bother submitting those quicktime clips
Your crappy old laptop should be able to view those quicktime clips. Are you playing Diablo too much to view some vidio clips?
Everything in this post is false.
See my response to the other comment. I didn't try to install it - I'm running an installed Quicken 99 Deluxe out of my VFAT partition (my Win95 partition). I'll have to check but I think the DLLs are all Wine except for the Quicken specific ones.
Emulation can get better than the real thing. I can recall an article on slashdot not that long ago which talked about running an omptimizing alpha emulator on an alpha machine. Because of the nature of the optimizing it was faster. I forget what the project was called...
Actually, I think it was an HP project, called Dynamo. There's been at least one Slashdot article about it.
Now, if a relatively advanced user can't set something up
and this:
I've spent more than a week on linux, trying to configure things, following every instruction I could find to the letter
Does not add up.
XML causes global warming.
Man I really love your work!!!
XML causes global warming.
So according to a poll, WINE's first priority should be running ridiculously overpriced bloatware from a company made infamous for its repeated misuse of undocumented APIs? Arrrgh!
But for all those thousands of development hours wasted on WINE, KOffice or one of its friends could be kicking some serious Redmond butt by now.
So when is this rumored post-MSFT era gonna start?
I read mail on Linux. If somebody sends me a Word doc, then I have to save the attachment somewhere accessible by Windows and reboot to read the file. This situation sucks. VMware makes things somewhat better, but I've got other problems with it thanks to the video card supplied by my employer and XFree86 4.0. A full functioning WINE will make my life easier, allow me to be more productive, and help me evangalize the wonders of Linux.
But you see, I don't WANT lampshades of human skin. Why should I want it. What is the advantage? I, personally, wouldn't ever buy it. But the ideology of it? I don't care if the lamp I buy is made by maoists or christian funamentalists. I just don't care.
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DO NOT DISTURB THE SE
i would have to say that M$ Office is the greatest priority.
.DOC is not standard.
.DOC that it is a nonstandard file and to send .RTF, .HTML, whatever, instead.
I hate saying that.
The problem is that microsoft has its hooks too deep into the world. Two examples:
1) After my graduating last year, I accepted a job and was asked to fill out a background check form. This was e-mailed to me in M$ word format.
2) I recently bought some Palm software online with a 30 day money back guarantee. I just put in my cc# and downloaded it. To return it, however, I had to sign a document promising that I had destroyed the software and mail/fax it to them. This was e-mailed to me in M$ word format.
Luckily Kinkos has M$ Word. And shame on these two companies for using a closed format.
But the point is, Linux users need M$ word. Not because it's better. Not because they may want to use it (and i'm sure some do, but that's personal preference).
Linux users need access to M$ word because other people don't realize or care that
But this is not the *only* thing we need.
While we are doing this, we need to remind everyone who e-mails us a
wish
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- expensive - boring - it sux! :P
- Slayer_X
http://www.slayerx.org/
Lima
I think we are doing the opposite already. Think about X11 protocol: everybody agrees that it sucks - no alpha, anti-aliasing etc. Creating a new protocol (X12?) would be a solution but we are not doing it because it would broke our existing applications (including but not limited to gnome and kde). Other examples exist.
PS. To be exact X11 is a protocol and xlib is an API and we could change to X12 or something if we port xlib to that. Why this hasn't happened already? Is it too hard? Are we happy with current situation (I'm not!)? I don't know. I'm sure you will tell if you do.
_________________________
_________________________
Spelling and grammar mistakes left as an exercise for the reader.
*sigh* I think I need to put this statement in my signature: I am not interested in convincing anyone to use anything. What does it matter what people use? If they are stupid enough to use winDOS, let them. Our objective should be to maximize freedom and quality, not to convince people to use our stuff. Everyone says derogatory things about "marketdroids" but if you look closely you'll see that the function of marketing is to convince people to use your product. In other words, you've become marketdroids without even realizing it.
The two don't mix, much to my dismay. (T2 will have a linux client, yay)
Tribes will run under wine, with no noticeable loss in performance. I'd love to ditch windows... but... It locks up after anywhere from a few minutes to an hour due to some obscure error. (locks hard, can't get back to system without reboot, can't even kill it from telnet)
Once they get the bugs worked out, wine will be an EXTREMELY important piece of the picture for people as they start migrating from windows to linux, and don't want to leave their favorite win32 programs behind.
I love the desktop option, I'd love for a full implementation of the windows desktop and program menus, so I could ditch windows completely. as others have pointed out here, for most people, it's not realistic to be completely without a windows box at this point. Wine could change that.
Wine is great, I suspect it's going to get better, and during the coming period when the general public begins to understand the advantages of Linux, it will play an important role in making migration easier.
Finally, If any of the wine devs read this, thanks for your work. I, for one, appreciate it and look forward to the upcoming versions.
________
1995: Microsoft - "Resistance is futile"
Archaic? I use a text file and tab delimit each line like: Mon Jan 04 Citibank 4.5h Adding Sort Options to Main Report My boss looks at it ocassionaly and uses it for billing purposes. Kind of archaic, but it works pretty well
Why not? Because I don't want any of my money to go to support the Evil Empire. Admittedly, using WINE has the potential of miscommunicating my wishes to the market--if I buy a Windows app, I'm encouraging the current bogus situation. I expect to stick to freeware and, if absolutely necessary, used software, though, to avoid doing anything to reward people who write Windows apps.
I won't even argue with that price, like a couple others already did, but will instead point out that $800 is a lot of money.
Some of us poor unfortunate upper-middle-class-college-students are unlucky enough to be in a situation where we don't have $800 to blow on more computer hardware, when we already have working boxes that are up to our needs.
So lets see, think a little and run a program, or drop $800 to buy another machine...
How rich are you that anyone who won't drop the 800 is a "cheapass mofo"?
I've accepted having to reboot to run games, it's no big deal for me, but my understanding is if DirectX is implemented, any games that run under Windows 2000 should run under Linux. (Actual programmers, please correct me if I'm wrong here)
The only reason Linux isn't my primary OS is Homesite, (But GPL products with the features I need are coming along nicely, so that shouldn't be an issue for much longer) Juno (It was running under the Wine version that shipped with Mandrake 7.0, but I upgraded and everything went to heck) and Planescape: Torment. Once Mozilla is up and running and video playback under Linux is as good as it is under Windows I'll be set.
Matthew Miller,
"Live Free or Die." Don't like it? Then keep out of the USA
I personally do it a different way. I have my absolutely kick ass box (well, it was kick ass at the time I bought it, but you know how those things go) and instead of having either a purely Windoze system (for games, that's it), or a pure Linux system (for EVERYTHING else) I have two hard drives, and a removeable drive bay. When I feel like working with a good operating system or programming or just learning something new, I toss in my Linux hard drive, and when I want some mindless entertainment by way of games, I power down the computer, swap out my Linux drive for my Windows drive, reboot and have at it. It's a very simple and rather inexpensive solution.
The chains are broken
Loki is free
Ragnarok is at hand...
Linux is only free if your time is worth nothing
Long Live Be!
Linux is only Free if your time is worth Nothing
Linux is only free if your time is of no value
Be in Your Senses
You have to keep in mind that his comment was pointed at CmdrTaco. Even if it cost $8000, Rob not buying it still qualifies him as a "CHEAPASS MOFO" I would say. The banners probably bring that in in a day.
You *have* heard of LILO, right?
What if you're little command line thing fucks up the file? Would you be able to undo with a ctrl-z like you could in word? c(o)p(y) file file.bak
I know that this is a troll, and not worthy of response, but I'm going to throw prudence to the wind and respond to this dumb motherfucker, anyway.
First, if you put this PC together yourself from mail-order parts, you _might_ be able to build it for under $1600 (excluding tax). Second, even if it _could_ be built for "like $800," that amount is NOT pocket change for most of us (it certainly isn't for me).
No, I'm not a "CHEAPASS MOFO," I just would never spend that much money to play games. Hell, I wouldn't spend "like $800" for a blow job from Natalie Portman, and that experience would certainly be more worthwhile than playing Diablo 2.
Neopets - the best free game on the Int
Good god, man! That's archaic!
Wouldn't it just be easier for everyone if you used a time card program? They're out there, you know. I used to support one. It wasn't that expensive.
Heck, for that, you could write a little program that would do the same thing. The screens might look crappy, but I'll bet it'd still be easier to work with. Excell macros, my ass. I have to deal with those at work, and they're some of the lamest, kludgy, piece-of-garbage tools I've ever had to work with. The time spent on maintaining those slippery little buggers would be much more usefully spent on other options above.
Heck, if you're gonna do that, you can do it on another operating system. Of course, you're talking about work, so it all really goes out the window. That negates your points and mine, because we don't get to make the decisions. (If you do make the decisions, shame on you, little boy!) Although, if you were clever about it, and really had to have non-windows at work, you could write a little program to do the conversion for you, with out having to change the current system...but you'd rather complain, wouldn't you.
Ok, so that was totally off-topic, but sheesh. Sometimes you just have to enlighten the unwashed masses.
Last I looked it was up 3/8ths against Debian's free beer, but had slipped 1/8th to the Microbrew from the Redmond guys.
Why not just consider an operating system as a tool? That's what I do. If there is something that I need to do that I can only do (or more efficiently do) with Windows, then I do it with Windows. If Linux works better, then I use that. If Be did the job better, I'd use it, but so far that isn't the case.
A much better idea is to advocate genuine binary compatibility, and that's the best approach with games. Sure, Office on WINE is a great target since business software stays (relatively) static for long periods of time. It's probably a pipe dream to envision Office for Linux anyway. Of course, Office on Windows is maybe more efficient.
Maybe it's time to shed the idea of avoiding Microsoft products at any cost and consider operating systems for what they are: a tool to get a job done.
=h=
windows and communism? ok, so maybe there are shades of TOTALITARIANISM coming out of redmond, but ms is as far removed from COMMUNISM as this anonymous coward is from intelligence.
Eloi are stupid, throw morlocks at them!
Ahem to that! I'm a lower-middle class University student, and the only reason I even have a 'puter is through scholarships and working damn hard... like I can drop $800 any time I want for a new system. Hell, I need that cash for rent! :)
OK, Corel is using WINE to port their Windows applications to Linux, and Free Software projects could easily do the same. On some level, that's good; easy porting between the two platforms.
But why do it that way? If I was going to do the kind of work that needed lots of translation from one OS to another, I would use Cygwin or some similar thing. It's much more mature, and uses the much more sane UNIX interfaces, then translates them to Win32, not the other way around. Do we really want to do it the Corel way, as some people suggest? WINE might be good and all for binary emulation, but if you care so much about porting, it seems to me that you should write UNIX first, then Windows.
Windows 2000: Designed for the Internet. The Internet: Designed for UNIX.
I'd like to see some commentary in WINE development about the shifting nature of the Win32 API(s), and what that has cost them in development time and effort. Clearly there must be SOME reason that WINE doesn't just run Win16 or Win32, but instead has Win31, Win95, Win98, and at least one WinNT switch values.
I know, if I'd like to see it, do it myself.
The living have better things to do than to continue hating the dead.
but liquor is quicker! ;)
But seriously. I would love to see good support for games in Wine, but I think what Wine needs right now is good application support. You won't get converts from the Windrowse userbase if they can't use their major applications on it, and for most people, games aren't enough.
Now there's someone who doesn't have mortgage payments to make!
"People who do stupid things with hazardous materials often die." -- Jim Davidson on alt.folklore.urban
I currently have a duel boot at home. I've tried to use Wine but the documentation is lacking and configuration *still* cryptic at best. If they took the time to document it correctly maybe it would receive more praise and use. I have heard of people getting games like EverQuest and the likes to work with WINE and I have tried it my self but have never goten it to work. Any insight on this would be appreciated.
Well, Win4Lin appears to be a similar product. I don't think it comes from the original Locus Merge, however -- after doing a little research, Locus Computing was bought by Platinum, which in turn was bought by CA, and along the way, Locus Merge seems to have fallen into a black hole.
I like the /. icon (not logo) better for the story positings, personally. Not because the Wine logo is bad, but because it does not capture the essence of what Wine is all about (running "Windows" programs). To someone unfamiliar with WINE, the /. icon is self-explanitory.
-- @rjamestaylor on Ello
Good work, guys!
In the next major release of Windows 2000, call it Windows 2003, for sake of argument and realism, Microsoft is going to completely revamp GDI into something they call GDI+. GDI+ seems to mean not only GDI, but the USER stuff gets redone as COM objects as well.
This is LONG overdue, and quite frankly I think it should have shipped with Win2k.
GDI and the entire Windows message plumbing is really, seriously starting to show its age and it definately needs a rewrite. While WindowProc(hWnd, uMsg, wParam, lParam) may have been sufficient 10 years ago, or even 5, it is arguable now at this point that the whole messaging system of Windows gets very much in the way of where Microsoft seems to want to go with a completely COM based system.
Questions (assuming GDI+ actually every shows up):
Will developers actually write for a total GDI rewrite? I mean, what NEW projects for Windows are actually on the drawing board? If not, then compatibility with the current GDI is all that is necessary, but, if so, does making the current GDI, USER, etc, by successfully emulating it via Wine run the risk of everyone expanding a code base that we all know has to change?
This is my sig.
I presume that MS will try to break compatibility the way they did with Win32s to put an end to new Windows apps running seamlessly under OS/2. To that extent, the original posters have a point. Do the WINE developers have plans to deal with such actions?
search and replace tools? um... s///; there ya go. =)
The one application I can't live without that only exists in the Windows universe right now is Quicken. Yeah, I know about Gnucash, or whatever they're calling it these days, but it has about 10% of the functionality of Quicken.
Make Quicken work in Linux and I'll never look back.
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Gort! Klatu Barata Nikto!
Because it works and I cant be bothered rebooting my workstation every time I need a program that I dont have for any platform but win* - Where good alternatives (with either converters available or file-compatibility) exist for linux I use those instead but wine fills up the gaps by letting me use the win* programs. It works the other way around too - if I have the main workstation booted into windows for any reason but I need access to a utility I only have under linux I'll telnet to the other linux box to do it rather than reboot it to switch OSes. After all, in windows it will crash soon enough without me going and telling it to reboot! ;)
The better wine gets the closer I can get to my ideal of never having to boot windows at all (at least on my machine - I'll still have to support it, my family still has a couple of windows users in it)
# human firmware exploit
# Word will insert into your optic buffer
# without bounds checking
I had a
While the idea of playing windows games on a linux box with Wine sounds like a good idea at first, when you really think about it there are some consequences.
1. Having Wine fully handle games would just be one more reason for game developers to not bother putting out a Linux version of their games.
2. I doubt that performance under Wine would be up to the levels of the game running under Windows. While the symbolic FU to MS may be fulfilling (as in "Ha, I'm running a DirectX game on Linux!"), frame rates that don't look like flash cards are even better!
The argument can be made that this goes for Business type applications (like Office) too. While their performance would be less degraded than that of a game, it's just another exaultation of the Win32 platform. It will encourage people who were thinking of making a linux version of their program to keep it all in Win32 and then just use Wine to port it over. Still a Win32 app! And however good Wine is, it will never be as good as Win32 on Win32. That's just a fact.
I'm wondering if you can get some windows binaries of wine...
haha.. yes this is supposed to be funny.
Spoon not. Fork, or fork not. There is no spoon.
In France, home of the world's best wines, most producers expect a fair year, not as good as to produce classics but good enough to keep tradition intact.
In California, on the other hand, the wine will probably keep its distinct "american" mood. Californian wine will keep being the (upper/middle) middle-class favourite all around the world, due to its cheaper price and sweeter flavour (when compared to its French counterpart).
The "niche" wines (Italian, Portuguese), of course, will always have a place in the drinker's heart and this year will be no different from the others. A Port after dinner is still a distinctive mark of good taste.
As for the less famous wines (Chilean, German come to mind), they will keep being what they are, poor but sometimes acceptable substitutes to the real thing, their consumption growing steadly with globalization and the access to new markets.
Disclaimer: all above information was made up on the fly.
Emacs. Open your emacs. For those of you who don't have emacs fsck off. Let's see, it's got all the modules i need to send e-mail, code in c(++),html,perl, and do fairly good word processing. If you need something more complicated open your star suite and use that. If that's not good enough, write your own damned program. *steps off soap box* yes i own windows. No, i don't use it. It is slow. But, it is better supported. But, linux has support of the home brewed kind, because it's ssooo easy to just write a program and run it, with little overhead or training. Get your friends, family, pets, co-workers, postmen, and butlers hooked on it like cheap crack. Thank you for your time. ==It's diet Unix.==
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Crudely Drawn Games
Actually, windows comes with support for printing to postscript files. Simply install any postscript printer driver to the File: port. print to that printer.
very few people do this. but it is available w/ windows.
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Ok all of you. I said that about search and replace knowing that I'd probably get sed thrown in my face. The point, of course, is that when I, am word processing, I don't want to stop, take 30 minutes to learn sed, and then continue. Worse, if the document is in any format other than text, you have to deal with converting out, converting back and hoping none of the formatting went bye-bye. Trust me, all in all, it's easier to do what I do in Word than it is to do it at the command line. There are all sorts of things that I won't tolerate using a GUI for, but this isn't one of them.
Take a deep breath, reread. I said that there is no reason to run office under WINE, but there are many games that are not ported to Linux. I have Windows loaded in order to play games, but many of them will work under WINE. I also said that people who are running office, might as well just run it under windows, as if you merely wanted office compatibility, you could get StarOffice or something.
Eh...
I agree that this solution to the area code quandary is efficient, neat, and fun.
However, if you want to go through a Microsoft Word document sent to you by your semi-illiterate Windows-using friend, and change all instances of "marajuna" to "marijuana", it would be faster to boot up MS-Word under Wine and use the search/replace than use a utility to change the file format, use global replacements, and send it back to him in plain text with all his formatting removed.
Different Tools for Different Jobs.
"Beware he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart he deems himself your master."
A naked chick. No, naked twins.
Scratch that! Naked Triplets!
With big breasts!
But then, I recommend that as a logo for anything.
search and replace tools? um... s///; there ya go. =)
I do agree that it is always quicker to write a PERL script than to press Alt-F.
"Beware he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart he deems himself your master."
as was recently written up here
try { do() || do_not(); } catch (JediException err) { yoda(err); }