First Maglev To Be Built In China

Slack writes: "The Orlando Sentinal is reporting that China has signed a deal with a German consortium to build the world's first commercial train to float on magnetic fields."

Comments

electromagnetic radiation

[bug1]

There must be a pretty massive magnetic field for these to work, if there is a magnetic field, theres also and electric field.

I wonder what the electromagnetic radiation level from this hover train would be compared to say a mobile phone.

I guess a least its not concentrated at your brain. I would want some information before i would spend a lot of my time on one (driver, catering staff etc).

Re:electromagnetic radiation

[Crspe]

There must be a pretty massive magnetic field for these to work, if there is a magnetic field, theres also and electric field.
Not necessarily - the permanent magnets hanging on your fridge dont emit any electromagnetic ratiation, otherwise you have a perpetual motion machine - stick an aerial next to the magnet, collect the energy and there you have it - no more problems in california!
Unfortunatly, the us patent office no longer accepts patents for perpetual motion machines, otherwise ....

Re:electromagnetic radiation

[Lion-O]

if there is a magnetic field, theres also and electric field

That doesn't have to be the case, it all depends on how you create the magnetic field. A magnetic field on its own doesn't have anything electrical about it unless you move a coil through the field. Then you are creating electricity, the principle of the dynamo. But thats pretty hard to compare with a mobile phone; thats a totally different story.

The next thing you are totally forgetting is Faraday. If you're inside a metal train then the electro magnetic fields generated by this train (remember; the tracks aka bottom of the train is where the actions at) will surely have a hard time reaching you. Thats first class Physics (I do hope I got the verb right :)); the cage of Faraday.

Re:electromagnetic radiation

[Arlet]

For whatever it's worth, a Faraday cage only blocks electrical fields, not magnetic. Powerful magnets as used in the train will certainly penetrate the train itself. Whether this is dangerous is a completely different story of course.

Also, a Faraday cage needs to be closed all the way. You couldn't make a big window in it, and still effectively block ectrical fields. The size of the maximum holes you can have depends on the wavelengths you want to block, the bigger the holes, the longer the waves that can get through.
Also note that if the holes aren't circular, you have to take the longest dimension into account. This means that a long, narrow, slit in a Faraday case renders it useless.

Re:electromagnetic radiation

[bug1]

A.I think your arguing semmantics.
B.The only way you can "lockup" a magnetic field is with superconductors.

You can "encourage" a magnetic field to stay within certain boundaries using certain materials, but for all practicle purposes you cannot totally contain a magnetic field.
C. Fair enough, did you measure electric field strength as well ?

Re:electromagnetic radiation

[krlynch]

More correctly, the presence of a changing magnetic field requires the presence of an electric field, and vice-versa.

Aside for people who've taken calculus based physics: If you remember the Maxwell equations, you should remember that there are four of them: two of them tell you how static charges give rise to E and B fields, and two that tell you how moving charges give rise to E and B fields, and additionally, how a time-varying E field gives rise to a B field and vice-versa. See, for example, Eric's Treasure Trove

Furthermore, there are some points about Faraday cages that you are missing: firstly, as another poster mentioned, any holes will reduce the effectiveness of the cage. Secondly, even a very good cage only keeps out static fields; time-varying fields penetrate into cages to a degree that depends on their frequency. For this, you'll need to check out an advanced undergraduate or graduate E&M text (such as Jackson). This is why, for instance, you can listen to the AM radio while riding in your car, and why you can talk on your cellphone inside an elevator (which are generally excellently well closed Faraday cages).

Re:The distances and the capacity

[sxpert]

unlike the new leader of the free world....
You forgot quotes around 'free'

Re:The distances and the capacity

[Ice-d]

They've got a huge dam, but they've also got a huge population! 1.000.000.000 / 600 = 1.7 milion rides... times 8 equals 13 million minutes which in turn equals 222 thousand hours which equals about 9000 days... It'll take ages before every chinese get's a ride at this thingy. And they all have to pay for it... Hmm. Strange, but communistic nonetheless..

Re:Trains, planes and automobiles

[CSC]

Trains and planes both have very efficient engines

Electric trains have much more efficient engines than planes. Jet engines are forced to incur a heat->work conversion, while electric motors generate movement directly with electromagnets (just a bit of electrical resistivity here, doesn't waste much power).

Re:Drooling...

[achurch]

Well, my first real eye-opener was when I first came to Japan during summer vacation a couple of years ago; on my return trip from Akita (a prefecture in northern Japan) to Tokyo, a trip of about 660 km, the train left at 10:10 [IIRC] and was scheduled to arrive in Tokyo at 14:38. And whaddyaknow... when the train comes to a stop at the platform, my watch says 14:38:10.

I've gone on various other long-distance trips since, and they've all been accurate to more or less the same degree. Some of the time schedules the station staff use even have seconds printed on them.

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BACKNEXTFINISHCANCEL

nanobots

[Orifice]

What's any of this got to do with nano-bots? Seems kind of off-topic if you ask me.

Headlines in China when it's done...

[SuperKendall]

F1R57 M4GL3\/!

That's about how intelligent the plan seems.

Re:Finally

[CSC]

Actually, i just recently read about a study saying that a MagLev (TransRapid) connection between Amsterdam and Groningen (in the most northeastern part of the Netherlands) would be quite viable. I would certainly be nice if such a connection would be made (it takes something like 4 hours now for the 250-300 km)

Though it would be a loss of connectivity... TGVs already go up to Amsterdam, it could be smarter to build a high-speed line that allows going south to Belgium and France (and west to London!) instead of switching trains at Amsterdam.

Re:These people are in a serious rush

[Sir Runcible Spoon]

Wait for someone to clear the leaves of the track?

Re:Pocket checks

[ddmckay]

As funny as it would be to see people pinned to the floor of a maglev train by the magnets, it doesn't work that way. Nor will they erase magnetic media, etc., etc.

I rode I maglev demo train at Expo86 in Canada and it was a super smooth ride with no magnet problems!

Re:achievemnets of Shanghai?

[haukex]

Yeah, the Transrapid is a German development - it's more like the Germans finally sold the thing to China (*that's* the achievement). Loads of resources were poured into developing this thing, and since the German Environmentalist Party blocked the planned Berlin-Hamburg line, the people who developed it obviously didn't want to simply drop the project. Germany has pretty good relations with China, and and the whole Shanghai thing got rolling when some of their top leaders came over to test-ride the train and liked it a lot.

Re:Transrapid still WAY too expensive

[CSC]

It could make short-distance air travel obselete on any corridor where the maglev train is running.

That's what it did in France : air traffic between Paris and Lyon has been almost killed by the TGV, and companies flying Paris-Marseille are expecting a major loss starting next summer, when the high-speed line extension is completed.

Albert Speer with an epicanthic fold.

[PHAEDRU5]

It's in the nature of fascist states to do this sort of project. Think of what Albert Speer wanted to build in Germany, bring it forward 50 years, plunk it down in China, and you have modern Chinese civil engineering.

The Seven Gorges dam, this maglev, the threats to Taiwan, they're all symptoms of a sick society, a society run by an increasingly confused and out of control Maoist gerontocracy.

First the civil engineering projects and the sabre rattling, then the invasion of neighbouring countries.

Re:Albert Speer with an epicanthic fold.

[Bearpaw]

Yeah! Next thing you know, they'll be indistinguishable from the US! (Well, ok, we don't have a Maoist gerontocracy ...)

Re:Albert Speer with an epicanthic fold.

[sxpert]

you're right. We are now experiencing a dubious, obscure theocracy that wants to go back to the times of inquisition.

Re:Albert Speer with an epicanthic fold.

[PHAEDRU5]

Whoops. Sorry 'bout that.

Re:Why?

[rorlach]

Why having a 1.5 GHz computer under your desk when you could browse the net with your old 60 MHz machine ? Are you geek or not?

Re:The distances and the capacity

[ponxx]

> Ever thought over power consumation of this thing
What makes you think MagLevs will consume huge amounts of power? Just keeping the train at a constant height does not take any power at all, whether it's done with wheels and a track or Magnets. (OK, so there is bound to be some loss, but with superconducting coils and whatever else they might be using its probably small)

Also, when the thing stops it's kinetic energy does not just go to waste but is converted back into useful power, the train basically acts as a generator.

Re:These people are in a serious rush

[gattaca]

Soft boil an egg.

Re:Just a highspeed train

[sxpert]

then, thay have bridge-pilar contact...

Re:Excluding the one in Germany?

[Betcour]

In fact this maglev is built fist in China because the one planned for Germany is in serious troubles. The German gov is heavyly subsidizing this small track to make a proof of concept, and also in hope of getting bigger contracts against the French TGV (which use regular railtrack but is much more energy efficient, cheaper and also a bit faster).

Birmingham has had Maglev for years

[joe_fish]

Not to knock the work being done in China, but they are not the first Maglev.

Birmingham (UK, not AL) between the NEC exhibition centre and the train station. I'd guess it has been there for over 10 years. They announced plans in the middle of last year for a version 2.

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Re:Birmingham has had Maglev for years

[Peejeh]

Yes, but...

First Maglev to be Built in China

...the item is clearly talking about the first MagLev to be built in China.

Re:Birmingham has had Maglev for years

[Peejeh]

It was a lighthearted joke upon the syntax of the previous item. Take it as such.

Re:Birmingham has had Maglev for years

[chrischow]

u mean brum airport to the train station

ah yes i remember well, back when i was a lad, going to the airport for a bit of plane spotting. a trip or two on the maglev was essential

s'pore airport got one too i thought, it was dark when i was on it though

Re:Birmingham has had Maglev for years

[PSC]

Not to knock the work being done in China, but they are not the first Maglev.

Birmingham (UK) isn't the first maglev either. To quote from the Transrapid web site:

1979

Operation of the world's first maglev train with longstator propulsion (Transrapid 05) to be licensed for passenger transportation occurs at the International Transportation Exhibition (IVA 79) in Hamburg.

Check out the Transrapid web site (English and German) at transrapid.de

Re:Birmingham has had Maglev for years

[Rob Wilderspin]

The article was one sentence long. It said:

"...China has signed a deal ... to build the world's first commercial train to float on magnetic fields."

If you're going to take weasly pot-shots at people then at least have some basis for argument.

Rob

Re:Birmingham has had Maglev for years

[chrischow]

yeah they had a demonstration train before our maglev but i reckon the "world's first commercial train to float on magnetic fields" is still the dear old brum maglev!

Re:What about....

[Betcour]

Only 200 km/h ? that sounds quite small ! Is that cruse or top speed ? The TGV can speed over 520 km/h and the cruse speed is usually about 330 km/h.

Re:The distances and the capacity

[Ice-d]

Super conductors? Are there any superconductors that work at "room temperature"? Maybe I've been out of physics too long, but afaik there ISN'T any superconductor at "room temperature" wi`hich in turn means cooling, which in turn means power consumption, voila.

Not the first commercial Maglev - BHX

[Avalonia]

Birmingham Aiport (BHX) in the UK West Midlands sported a commercial operating Maglev between the terminal and the main-line railway station for eleven years. It has recently been replaced. There's a relevant Scientific American article here.

Re:Not the first commercial Maglev - BHX

[siliconowl]

Can't reach that URL.
You don't say it, but I have the impression from other posts that the replacement isn't Maglev.
Any ideas why ?

I could access the URL and it has been replaced by a shuttle bus. Reason being that shuttle busses are cheaper to run, more reliable and easier to fix when they do break.

Re:Not the first commercial Maglev - BHX

[artg]

Can't reach that URL.
You don't say it, but I have the impression from other posts that the replacement isn't Maglev.
Any ideas why ?

Re:Not the first commercial Maglev - BHX

[chrischow]

well i do remember it broke down quite a bit, but i dunno if thats why

Re:Drooling...

[Big_Breaker]

Imperialist? Reality check- if you think the US behaves in an imperialistic manner, how do you think the Russians would behave these days if the US had backed down? Check your world history and note that it was SDI that broke the Russian spirit in the cold war. Not that SDI necessarily would have been effective, but the Russians spent FAR more on their military than the US did as a % of GDP. They simply could not afford to keep up the race as SDI was (is) going to cost a fortune. The US effectively outspent Russia. The same people that were cowering under the protection of the US through the past three decades are the same ones that whine today about US imperialism. The US would just assume avoid another cold war (or a hot one for that matter).

Re:Drooling...

[amorsen]

I can tell you how fast you were going. The IC3 trains which you were no doubt using has a top speed of 180km/h. Since you happened to travel on some of the most used tracks in Denmark, you were doing close to that for a large part of the journey. Racing the train is quite a challenge these days.

In the tunnel under Storebaelt you were doing 140km/h. The last part of the journey was on lower quality tracks, typical speeds 100-120km/h.

By the way, the Lyntog which stops at fewer stations can make the journey in ~3h15m.

Benny

Re:wait a minute ...

[TummyX]

Um, no. You might notice that magnets attract metal no matter which pole it is.
They'd have to be wearing strong magnetic rings (but then the rings would prolly just turn around to attract the magnets anyway).

Maglev has huge potential

[jmichaelg]

Transrapid is the worst maglev system you can conceive. Their system relies on attraction which changes exponentially as the magnets move closer together or further apart. That means the control circuitry has to be spot on to keep the train the correct distance from the track. Moreover, the track has to be very carefully built and can't allow for much settling.

Powell and Danby, the original inventors of maglev, have come up with enhancements to their original patents involving quadrature magnets that achieve several goals:

1. The magnets, unlike Transrapid's, are arranged to repel each other so the system self-stabilizes.
2. The quadrature windings are layed out so the magnetism within the cabin is no higher than background magnetism.
3. The magnets are arrayed across the entire train floor so loading isn't limited to a few outboard magnets. That means more even loading.
4. The even loading means very low track flexing as the train passes over which translates into very low track wear.
5. The trains can be configured to carry fully loaded trucks as well as people. That option which is not possible in the original design that was implemented by the Japanese, means that freight charges can make the train self-supporting. They estimate that they can carry trucks at 6 cents/ton-mile vs. 30 cents/ton-mile it costs to drive the truck on an interstate.
6. The best comes last...build a trans-continental tunnel and evacuate it. Accelerate the maglev train at .2 gee for 10 minutes, coast for 25, decelerate at .2 gee for 10 minutes. You've used the equivalent of 20 gallons of gasoline and moved 1000 people from San Francisco to New York in 45 minutes. If you use $7 million/mile to cost the tunnel (about what the Swedes just paid for >40km tunnel) you're looking at about $14 Billion to build the tunnel shell. That's less than 1/3rd the cost of the initial estimates for the National Missile Defense Rumsfield wants to build and we end up with something the country can actually use.

The trans-continental tunnel option is a future that simply isn't available for steel wheels on steel track trains and blows away any envisioned air transport.

Re:Maglev has huge potential

[Bryan Ischo]

Where did you get #6 from? I would love to read more about this if it is really a possibility ...

Re:Maglev has huge potential

[jmichaelg]

Powell and Danby, the maglev inventors, won the Franklin Prize last year for their contribution to engineering practice. During his acceptance speech, Powell outlined a variety of advantages of maglev over steel-on-steel. Hyper-speed transit in an evacuted tunnel was one of them.

The astonishing aspect of evacuated tunnel transit is the tremendous fuel savings. The train itself is only consuming energy during the 20 minutes of acceleration and decceleration - the rest of the trip is free. Of course, you have to initially evacuate the tunnel but if the tunnel is properly built, you do that once.

Maglev in Pittsburgh

[octothorpe]

Lowly Pittsburgh is actually one of two finalist (with D.C.) to get a maglev commuter train built. It would run for 45 miles between the cities of Greensburg, Monroeville, Downtown Pittsburgh and the Pittsburgh Airport. I could get to work from where I live near Monroeville in about twenty minutes instead of the hour the bus takes right now. And most of that twenty minutes would be the time to get to the station I think the train would only be 7 minutes, to go 15 miles.
But since it took almost thirty years to get a pedestrian bridge built across the Allegheny from the point to 3-Rivers Stadium (just in time for it to be demolished) I don't have much faith that this will ever happen. But anything that would cut down on car/truck traffic waiting to go through the the Squirrel Hill and Fort Pitt tunnels would be great for the Air Quality here. Every single work day cars back up for at least six miles, stopped, waiting to go through the Sq. Hill tunnel, with most cars occupied by only one person.
There's a FAQ about the project here: http://post-gazette.com/regionstate/20010119qa3.as p

Anyone remember Expo86 and the HSST?

[BlacKat]

Japan had the High Speed Surface Transport train at Expo86 in Vancouver, BC, Canada wich was a maglev system. Heck, I *rode* in it, so this is definatly NOT the first maglev system.

Go to google and search for "expo hsst" ;o)

Re:Technical Data (Re:The distances and the capaci

[Redwire]

it only takes 165 seconds (or 16km) to reach 430km/h

Heh. Ok, so it takes 16km to reach top speed. How long does it take to stop from it's top speed? I'd hope it takes less than 4km, otherwise they're never going to reach top speed in China, what with their 20km track and all.

Train control

[Andreas Bombe]

Don't forget that the train itself will probably be computer controlled

More like remote controlled. The track is the engine, the train itself doesn't have to have a lot of technology inside. You could rip out all technology but the magnets out of the train and it would still go full speed. It has to have batteries (for stops) and induction wires (powered from the track) to get any power at all for inside lighting etc.

If the train is piloted (it probably will be, it's a passenger psychology thing), then all commands go to a base station which controls the track.

Re:The distances and the capacity

[Spruitje]

>not that the communist government would give a damn about environment anyway
unlike the new leader of the free world....


Let me think.
The new leader of the free world, and they think about the enviroment.
Must be the EC, because the US is one of the largest poluters on earth.

Pocket checks

[batobin]

I just feel sorry for the poor bastards who dress gothic style and wear lots of metal. They're fine until the train starts up... then all of a sudden they're pinned to the floor the train wishing they'd never had those 15 nose-rings put in.

Re:Pocket checks

[pallex]

Yeah, wouldnt this make a mess of hard-disks and other electronica?

Re:Pocket checks

[Lion-O]

Ehmz no. Does the name 'Faraday' ring a bell?

Re:Pocket checks

[ozbird]

Does the name 'Faraday' ring a bell?

You're thinking of Quasimodo - Faraday was the guy who liked putting things in cages for their protection (e.g. from electromagnetic fields.) ;-)

Re:Pocket checks

[beebware]

You'd think the magnetic fields would mess up electronics and other items that rely on magentic items wouldn't you? But have a think - power stations use electronics and computers don't they? They also have v.v.v.big magnets in the turbines/generators. So why don't their systems get corrupted?

Simple - insulation. Add wads of lead/concreate (okay, can't use that in this situation) or thick clumps of wires to help 'reduce' the magnetic fields.

Don't forget that the train itself will probably be computer controlled and the train company will have to take into account passengers with pacemakers (pacemakers and radio/magentic fields don't get on) - so don't worry about your laptop.

Richy C.

Re:Pocket checks

[radja]

I really feel sorry for women who had their labiae pierced...

//rdj

Re:Pocket checks

[Lion-O]

You're thinking of Quasimodo

If I did I would have mentioned it.
Besides; this is happening in China, not in France :)

Re:Pocket checks

[Aunt Mable]

Prince Albert.

-- Eat your greens or I'll hit you!

Re:Pocket checks

[Aunt Mable]

Well, certainly pacemakers could get messy.

-- Eat your greens or I'll hit you!

Maglev will never work

[Anonymous Coward]

Magnets are designed to attract. Not repel

Re:Maglev will never work

[foxwitt]

If this is using the same design I've seen for the maglev proposed for Pittsburgh, the train actually wraps around the track and the magnet pulls the flanges up to within a few inches of the rail to make the train float.

Re:These people are in a serious rush

[benwb]

But unfortunately, not linux.

The distances and the capacity

[morie]

They have a bilion people to move around bilions of square km's and they build a 20 mile line for 600 people?

I live in the Netherlands, and over here they will not build a maglev from one side of the country to the other because the distance is to short! Thats 300 km! (Yes, I know, small country :-) )

Re:The distances and the capacity

[Raffzahn]

Power consumption per passenger is in about the same range than for the usual Diesel powered CalTrain Unit.

Gruss H.

Re:The distances and the capacity

[divec]

Thats 300 km!

You have to say 186 miles as well, or lots of people won't know.

Re:The distances and the capacity

[Caid Raspa]

They have a billion people to move around billions of square km's and they build a 20 mile line for 600 people?

This sounds like the Chinese will propably only buy this from the west, reverse-engineer the whole thing and start later building new rails and trains on their own. Think about the difference between the price of a train built by german or chinese engineers. Wages are a bit lower in China, so they will save $$ this way.

The chinese politicians don't have to explain this kind of spending to the voters. That's why maglevs are not common in Europe or USA. The track would not be operational at next election, so you would not get elected if you spent public money on this kind of projects instead of tax cuts.

Re:The distances and the capacity

[Raffzahn]

Aren't the Dutch bushing onto Germany to build the Bremen-Hamburg lik, so this can be extended until Amsterdam ?
Gruss
H.

Re:The distances and the capacity

[Ice-d]

Ever thought over power consumation of this thing? With the energy crisis going on in california you think it's strange that they plan the first in china??? Silly world isn't it? "Use less power, less build a power consuming train!" go fig...

Re:The distances and the capacity

[sxpert]

Remember, they have the most powerful river in the world, and are building a huge dam on it (not that the communist government would give a damn about environment anyway)

Re:The distances and the capacity

[SilverSun]

because the US is one of the largest poluters on earth

WRONG! US is the largest poluter. Meassured per head, per $SBF, per you name it.

Re:The distances and the capacity

[ponxx]

>not that the communist government would give a damn about environment anyway
unlike the new leader of the free world....

Drooling...

[tolan's my name]

..I've always loved the idea of these things, though I imagine [living in Britian] that i'll never get to see one ;o(

I know it's a little naive, but is anyone else suprised that this is happening in China? I know they've got a space program etc etc but I have a real problem thinging of it as a high tech nation.

What sort of speeds are we talking for this?

Re:Drooling...

[johoho]

>>What sort of speeds are we talking for this?

uhm, about 350-360 peak

Re:Drooling...

[pallex]

"..I've always loved the idea of these things, though I imagine [living in Britian] that i'll never get to see one ;o( "

What, a train? I`m sure they`ll be back to a `normal` service soon. :)

I have to say, spending xmas in Denmark last year (rather than the UK, where i live), was amusing - getting a train that ran from one end of Denmark to the other (Randers -> copenhagen), on christmas day, and leaving/arriving within a minute of its scheduled time, was a new experience for me! Can`t we do *anything* right?

Re:Drooling...

[Whisperingwolf]

Sure you can just go out and buy a copy of pokemon gold or silver then you can see a maglev every time you play.

Re:Drooling...

[hawk]

>If you decide how technologically advanced a society is by the kind of
>trains it uses, how do you think the US would do ?.

Quite well. Most of ours fly at about mach .75 . . . :)

More seriously, though, for the most part the U.S. isn't dense enough
for trains to be practical, though there are notable exceptions.

For that matter, we only have a half-dozen to dozen cities where local
mass transict *can* be practical.

hawk

Re:Drooling...

[divec]

I've always loved the idea of these things, though I imagine [living in Britian] that i'll never get to see one ;o( I know it's a little naive, but is anyone else suprised that this is happening in China? I know they've got a space program etc etc but I have a real problem thinging of it as a high tech nation.

Remember that it has the second largest economy in the world (after the US). And the government is not democratically accountable to the people, so it has much more freedom to spend on big projects. (Witness the big projects which Malaysia, Indonesia and Singapore have commissioned in the past).

Re:Drooling...

[Raffzahn]

Haven't the English men sold their superior steam engines (and first train designs) to Germany, almost 200 years ago, just to buy nowadays German cars ? :))

No, I'm not telling that this is the way it will be, but buying substancial high tech investments may lead to independant development

gruss
H.

Re:Drooling...

[achurch]

I have to say, spending xmas in Denmark last year (rather than the UK, where i live) was amusing - getting a train that ran from one end of Denmark to the other (Randers -> copenhagen), on christmas day, and leaving/arriving within a minute of its scheduled time, was a new experience for me!

It was a whole minute off?

I must have become more spoiled by the Japanese train system than I thought...

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BACKNEXTFINISHCANCEL

Re:Drooling...

[pallex]

How long is Japan? Actually, not sure of the distance of my journey, but it was of about 3 hrs 40 mins. Didnt seem like we were travelling that fast though.

Re:Drooling...

[El Cabri]

The perception that plane necessarily obsoletes train is false.

In France when high speed rail put the second biggest city Lyon, 2 hours away from Paris, the domestic air link that took 50 minutes or so lost almost all its market. All that was left of it was international passengers connecting in Paris.

Same thing between Paris and Brussels, and partly between Paris and London (waiting for the English to modernize their part of the track to gain another hour on the currently 3 hours trip).

Plane is extremely inefficient in terms of energy consumption, plus it becomes very difficult to manage for very massive transits. In particular the train system scales up far more efficiently during peak periods. I think a high speed link connecting all the cities of the US west coast from Seattle to Los Angeles would prove extremely profitable.

Re:Drooling...

[El Cabri]

know it's a little naive, but is anyone else suprised that this is happening in China? I know they've got a space program etc etc but I have a real problem thinging of it as a high tech nation.

If you decide how technologically advanced a society is by the kind of trains it uses, how do you think the US would do ?.

And anyway its just a 30km or so link. France, Germany, Italy, Japan, Spain, etc have had hundreds of km of high speed tracks for decades. Even the US is catching up with their acela link.

Re:Drooling...

[SubtleNuance]

seems to be kind of neurotic about their status as an international industrial power.

Completely unlike USofAmerica's obsessive neurosis with convincing themselves they are the most mighty, free and wealthy nation... of which only one is debatably true: mighty*. 'Freedom' in America is a popular myth and we all know that Canada has the highest standard of living in the world - I think the USofA falls about 5th (maybe 3 or 4th..). *There would probably be other 'mighty' nations if they spent the kind of money that your Industrial Military industry demands, and if they had the kind of Imperialist goals of the USofA.

Re:Drooling...

[nomadic]

know it's a little naive, but is anyone else suprised that this is happening in China? I know they've got a space program etc etc but I have a real problem thinging of it as a high tech nation.

That's probably why they're doing it. China seems to be kind of neurotic about their status as an international industrial power. Witness the Great Leap Forward, where they tried to form an industrial base overnight (making farmers give up their fields to build "backyard furnaces" for steel production) or the Three Gorges Dam.
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Re:Anyone read Dark Tower?

[Rasta Prefect]

The Blaine the Mono you're talking to is already 800 miles away, under the city communicated by encrypted microburst radio.

Transrapid website

[sxpert]

here is a link to the transrapid web site.

Re:is it the first?

[garethwi]

Don't they have one in London. I thought the Docklands Light Railway was a maglev.

Slow, Old, Unsafe - pick any three

[Anonymous Coward]

The sound of self-interest and hypocrisy is nipping at my eardrums. Let's start with self-interest. Transrapid reckon this stuff is

• Safe. Yeah, right. Until the power goes off
• Energy efficient. Not unless you think squandering MW on keeping the levitation coils going is a good use of energy
• Slow (or slower than the alternative) because for every small increase in speed you need a disproportionate increase in magnet current to keep the thing stable

Of course they have to say that because they have such a huge investment in old and essentially useless tech.
In fact, there is a magnetic levitation tech which is safe and energy efficient.

• It relies on coils in the track (closed loops, unpowered) and magnets on the train.
• The train has small wheels which it rides on until it reaches a critical velocity (around 30 km/h) above which the eddy-currents induced in the track coils generate enough of a repulsive force to lift the train.
• Mount coils and magnets horizontally and vertically in sidewalls and you get to go around corners safely too.
• The faster it goes, the more induced magnetism it generates, the more it holds itself stable
• Propulsion is by some kind of small jet/fan.

Safety is assured because there is no electric current to get interrupted.
Check out Scientific American late last year for an article on this.
The hypocrisy comes from the Chinese (surprise!). How could this possible be a demonstration of China's technical prowess? A demonstration of Germany's perhaps, but not China's.

Re:Slow, Old, Unsafe - pick any three

[demonbug]

Actually, they have done several tests of the Transrapid system where they abruptly shut off the power at high speed. The train(s) has rubber skids or wheels (I get confused between the German one and the Japanese one) that bring it safely to a stop.
I'm not sure about the energy efficiency of the Transrapid, but the Japanese maglev testbed uses superconducting magnets, and is very efficient. Only trouble is keeping the superconductors cool. I think the ones the Japanese use need to be around the temp of liquid CO2, which escapes me at the moment. The Transrapid, however, uses normal magnets.

Britain has two short maglev lines

[Animats]

One at Birmingham Airport and one at Gatwick. There used to be a third, in London, but it was replaced a few years ago because maintaining the one-of-a-kind system was too expensive.

Disney wanted to build a maglev from the Orlando airport to Disney World, bypassing all competing attractions in the area, but even Team Rodent couldn't get that through the Florida legislature.

Re:Transrapid still WAY too expensive

[RayChuang]

Actually, I do know that Eurostar has now nearly twice the people going between London and Paris as flying between London Heathrow/Gatwick and Paris/Charles de Gaulle airports. Eurostar is one reason why the hovercraft that used to ply the English Channel no longer do so. :(

The trip between London and Paris by Eurostar will be reduced by nearly 38 minutes when the new high-speed line from London's Waterloo International Station to Folkestone (the English side entrance to the tunnel) is completed in 2002.

Oh, the disaster :)

[hawk]

Like the article said, there are serious concerns about the efects on local flora and fauna . . . and these will lead to human injuries

It can be expected to attract iron-rich plants, such as spinach. This in turn will attract cute little bunny rabbits. When the bunnies eat too much of the spinach, they will become stuck to the tracks.

With such easy targets, larger carnivores such as wolves and lions will be drawn to the area. After too many of these meals, they to will stick to the tracks, causing the train to derail.

Stop maglev now!

Oh, and think of the poor survivors, waiting for rescue, with no food but the spinach and bunnies. They'll have to shut off the electrical grid for half of Europe to unstick them from the tracks . . .

:)

Re:Oh, the disaster :)

[hawk]

That's even worse. When they shu it off, the poor bunnies will fall from the track and bump their fuzzy little heads :(

hawk

Re:Oh, the disaster :)

[jyang]

It can be expected to attract iron-rich plants, such as spinach. This in turn will attract cute little bunny rabbits. When the bunnies eat too much of the spinach, they will become stuck to the tracks.

*fake ha-ha*, Correct me if I am wrong.

According to articles I read, sections of magnet are switched on/off based on where the train is travelling on, so the magnetic field is not always present. Given the speed the train, most of the line would be powered off most of the time.

Re:Oh, the disaster :)

[Tumbleweed]

Spinach? Everyone knows that wabbits like _carrots!_

I can just imagine a modern Bugs Bunny - tunnelling all over China, pops up just as the train goes wooshing by, flattening his ears straight back behind him, and says, "I _knew_ I should've made that left toin at Albuquerque..."

Just then, a Chinese hunter comes by...

nationalism as a political philosophy

[willis]

Nationalism has replaced communism as the national ideology. Big projects (and rhetoric about attacking Taiwan) stir nationalist feelings, and lead the people to support the nationalist (not the Nationalists in Taiwan) -- i.e. the "Communist party".

willis.

Re:Trains, planes and automobiles

[bluGill]

Woah there, don't forget that most electric power is generated via a heat to work conversion innitially. Add that factor in and things don't look quite as good.

Mind you large central generators are more efficcant then most engines, but there is also power line loss.

Likely Sequence of Events for a US Maglav

[Catmeat]

11 May 2015 Maglev connecting LA and San Francisco opened to the public.

14 May 2015 Press Scare Stories about possible health effects of high intensity magnetic fields.

17 May 2015 First lawsuit against the maglev operating company by a person who claims it gave him brain cancer.

Re:Likely Sequence of Events for a US Maglav

[spood]

20 May 2015 San Andreas fault finally gives way and heaves the whole mess into the Pacific. Problems solved.

California high speed rail

[demonbug]

Speaking of MagLev, there was supposed to be a ballot issue in November 2000 for the construction of a high speed rail system in California. I think it has been pushed back to 2001 (the ballot issue, that is), anyone know more about it? IIRC, they were looking at eitehr standard electrical traction (steel-wheel-on-rail), which they were estimating would cost around $21 billion, or a MagLev system that would cost around $27 billion. Oh, hey, check out www.cahighspeedrail.org if you are interested.

Ok, seems you are right, but give me one argument

[RedLaggedTeut]

That page says that it is bad that the TransRapid doesn't mix with the normal trains. However I'm not sure this is true.

Faster trains inside Germany often suffer from the problem that passengers want a fast point-to-point connection, but that the connection is slowed down by stops in other cities that are in between, and by long-winding paths into the city, like in Frankfurt, where the trains practically spiral into the city.

Well, but I don't know whether that is enough arguments to build a new rail system.

Sure there is . . .

[hawk]

Boone, Iowa used to be a major rail center--three lines crossed there, or some such. Today, their rail preservation society (or whatever) operates what they claim is the last production built coal-fired steam engine--it was built in China.

So on weekends in spring and summer, you can go to the only stop, catch a ride on an honest-to-God steam engine, and leave smiling, but with flecks of coal all over your clothing . . .

Re:What about....

[Alanus]

The series 500 Shinkansen actually has a top speed of 320 km/h on the current tracks (they hope to push this to 340 km/h by improving the tracks) and it's a Shinkansen that holds the world record for the fastest scheduled ride. The Shinkansen was the first high speed train when they started the service in 1964. The first TGV was 1980. Doesn't seem to have been copied to me...

Anyone read Dark Tower?

[Grab]

Who's read Stephen King's Dark Tower books? Anyone thinking Blaine the Mono?

Grab.

Re:maglevs

[divec]

we are waitng for diesels to come into service, but we have been promised 2050 at the earliest

Any of our trains scheduled to arrive by 2050 is unlikely to be seen before at least 2230, at least not in one piece. Wait for the apology (if they bother): "we are sorry for the slight delay to your journey ... this is because we are unable to locate the driver." They really say that quite often!

Re:These people are in a serious rush

[Anonymous Coward]

you could have a quick wank in 4 minutes - i know i could

Re:is it the first?

[divec]

Dunno, but in case anyone's wondering, DLR goes at speeds approaching a staggering 30 mph (50 kph) or so.

(OT) Re:Trains, planes and automobiles

[netsharc]

Server not found! What a fake URL that is!

Re:Hmmm....

[netsharc]

I heard about it on the radio last week. Of course I'm in Germany...

MagnaLev Technology

[Anonymous Coward]

Magnalev technology was started by the IPN (Formerly Iridium Pyramid Network) in 1234 B.C. and now the Chinese are going to use it? Pah! They couldn't use cooking utensils to make egg fried rice! Here at the IPN, in association with the League of Drunk Wookiees, we are creating new ways to travel. Using new and improved Depleted Uranium LimeStone (TM) n-pyramid-bit technology we can make monumental improvements to the speed of thought (most useful for your beleaguered president)and the probability of getting the work on time. Of course there is always a price to pay. Such offerings are going cheap at the moment - £69.99 + VAT! What value, what gall! You can even get a copy of "Flyfishing," by J.R. Hartley for free! Buy before it's too late, you fucks. That is all.

Sites for Japanese Research

[Hiro]

Here are some links to Japanese research:

Linear Chuo Express (Japanese)

• History of past experimental models
  
• Movie (AVI/QuickTime) of highspeed cross running(?) (relative speed of 966Km/h)

Railway Technical Research Institute (English) - Lots of cool pics!

Now, as far as I know from reading these sites, they are nowhere near the point of rolling out production level Maglev. I remember reading somewhere that superconducting magnets are still too costly to produce and operate. They are still working out all these details.

I just got a gut feeling that both German and Chinese are rushing ahead for such a premature technology. This technology is definitely way to go as future transportation system, but not quite yet ready...

America is OK by me

[kilroy2000]

If freedom in America is a "myth" please point to a country where it is not, so I can move there. I think we have it pretty good here. And so do the millions of people around the world on our immigration waiting lists including China and whatever non-imperialistic super-free country you're originally from. And promise me one thing since you don't like the US so much: if you are here now, leave. (And take our flag burners with you.) And if you are not here now, promise you will never come for a visit. Ever! You obviously would want to spend your time in all those wealthier, non-imperialist countries where freedom is not a myth.

Re:These people are in a serious rush

[Raffzahn]

Well, 12 Minutes would already need a TGV or ICE alike train (or a very special design), and consume way more energy than a Transrapid stlye maglev - remember, regular trains, even modern 'light' designs, are still huge masses of iron to be accelerated.

Re:These people are in a serious rush

[Ice-d]

Or you could boot windows ;-)

The German company was the 2nd choice

[Glowing Fish]

A group of Slashdotters actually had the first bid for the job, and were going to build it for much cheaper out of legos and potatos, but the deal fell through when they ran out of 2*3 flatsies.

Re:The German company was the 2nd choice

[Hard_Code]

Yeah, too bad...it was going to be powered by the environmentally clean hot air from flamers and trolls...

Re:Maglev

[Kierthos]

Well, I'd assume that since this is being built by German engineers, then the rail-cars will contain a Faraday cage, so none of that pesky train-lifting magnetic field will get into the car and scramble all of their lovely laptops. You'll still have any interior magnetic fields from electronics in the car, but that will be negligible compared to the field lifting the multi-tonne train.

Kierthos

wtf?

[vogon jeltz]

Ok, girls. This train is built by a german consortium. It exceeds 500 km/h in speed, and obviously China must have examined their options before jumping on this project. The biggest problem, btw, is the noise produced, which is proportional to the sixth (!) power of the velocity. Furthermore, germans are bloody ecological bastards who block about any new technology. That's why it's first realized in China.

Re:wtf?

[rorlach]

"That's why it's first realized in China." ... and China's decision are not really based on ecological (or financial) assumptions. Nor do the care about protests of nearby residents (or any protests at all). Lets see how you react when the germans build a high speed train across your garden...

Re:Excluding the one in Germany?

[yabHuj]

The main competitor against the French TGV is the German ICE - both trains with conventional rail rechnology. The energy consumption of a Transrapid is less that the one of the (slower cruising) TGV.

Transrapid's main problm is the non-compatible track. If you decide against TGV or ICE after 10 years, you still can use the tracks for your slow trains whereas the Transrapid rail will be completely useless...

Finally

[Jeff Kelly]

Its a relief to finally see someone built such a thing. After more than twenty years of research and more than 20.000.000.000 DM of taxpayers money put into this, our new Government very nearly cancelled the whole thing. Mind you not because the Construction of a Transrapid connection between Berlin and Hamburg would be too expensive (Actually it would cost not much more than an ICE connection (Germanies High speed train)) but because the Environmentalist Party in Germany (which governs our Land in Association with the Sozial-Democrates) blocked the Project due to environmental concerns. But If you do not believe in such High tech yourself, How do you think someone else will buy it. (If we had a working Transrapid connection, we would have sold the Technology long ago to several other countries including the Netherlands, Japan and the U.S.) But politicians only see the cost of a thing and whether or not it brings the voters favour to them, but not how much money they could make out of such an investment. Regards Jeff

Re:Finally

[Jeff Kelly]

The Point is that if the german government had had the Guts to build the Connection between Berlin and Hamburg then not only would the Netherlands have bought the technology for the track between Amsterdam and Groeningen but they would have cofunded a connection between hamburg and Amsterdam too. This would have made it- as german studies show - very profitable indeed.

Re:Finally

[yooden]

After more than twenty years of research and more than 20.000.000.000 DM of taxpayers money put into this, our new Government very nearlycancelled the whole thing

How could it be that the government could cancel it? The Transrapid consortium is a private business and even though we paid 2E10 DM in taxes, they still could not make it profitable.

the Environmentalist Party in Germany blocked the Project due to environmental concerns.

What's your point?

Re:Finally

[iebee]

Actually, i just recently read about a study saying that a MagLev (TransRapid) connection between Amsterdam and Groningen (in the most northeastern part of the Netherlands) would be quite viable. I would certainly be nice if such a connection would be made (it takes something like 4 hours now for the 250-300 km)

Re:maglevs

[Bartmoss]

The trains in japan use conventional engines to gain speed, then use magnetic fields for propulsion. The german transrapid is so far the only train that manages to do everything the maglev way.

Interesting tidbit: Germany wanted to build a Transrapid (their name for the maglev train) track between Hamburg and Berlin. They cancelled this, however, because of public resistance and the immense cost involved.

It's too bad, I'd really have liked to see it.

Re:Excluding the one in Germany?

[hanwen]

I also heard reports that the Maglev trains make
lots of noise than normal `high-speed trains', because of the high-speeds involved. The sound is probably much worse for wildlife than the magnetic fields). Does anyone know the fine points of this?

Re:Energy Guzzling?

[hanwen]

In the future, it may be possible to create large superconducting electromagnets that would suspend the train without consuming energy.

Normal trains are also suspended without consuming energy. The revolutionary devices used for that are called wheels

Re:Transrapid still WAY too expensive

[Are We Afraid]

"Raymond in Mountain View, CA"

No way? I live there. Heh...

Re:hypocrites

[axzaetus]

I appreciate your comments. Being from Alaska, I realize full well how the oil reserves of the North Slope put a $-gleam in the eyes of many Republicans. There are a couple of things I'd like to clarify, however:

&nbsp 1) 'Lazy Americans' was a simple exaggeration for the purpose of making a point. The emigrant working full-time at a fast food chain toward dreams of a better life is any thing but lazy. The genius of America is the spectrum of lifestyles present in its society. Unfortunately, I cannot help but think of the constant flow of traffic on I-5 and the Jersey Turnpike in terms of an anthill gone very wrong.

2) More to the point, you may be right that the MagLevs are left to the theorists in China instead of the engineers. On the other hand, it is exciting that electromagnetic fields are being researched for a variety of uses. For example, NASA has built a rocket that burns liquid plasma at several thousand degrees Celsius, which instantly vaporizes almost all known materials - with the exception of magnetic fields. Who knows how many technological advances are waiting to be discovered with the use of a force that exists throughout the universe?

Finally, though speculative fiction, the book and movie Contact utilize a gyroscopically-induced magnetic field to transport person(s) through the universe in alternate dimensions (of the Trekkie-inspired term 'spacetime continuum'), thereby defying the velocity-time limits of relativity physics. To paraphrase a quote, China (and the world) have taken a first step; in time, it will take another.
~axzaetus

I wonder why now...

[jtseng]

Perhaps to transport political dissidents to labor camps faster?

Re:Transrapid still WAY too expensive

[RayChuang]

Actually, Paris-Lyon is short-distance enough that a TGV does make sense, because I believe it takes about 2.5 hours nowadays to travel that distance by TGV.

It'll be interesting to see how much air traffic between Paris and Marseille is affected once the TGV line from Paris to Marseille allows for all high-speed running.

achievemnets of Shanghai?

[arban]

``The maglev train will act as a model to display the high-tech achievements of Shanghai"

I am rather confused. I agree that this would show the world that they are tech minded, but how does it show their high-tech achievements when the train is designed and the train cars built by a German company?

Magnetism is dangerous????

[Oscar26]

What's the diffence between a magnetic train's magnets and being exposed to the earth's magnetic field? Isn't the Earth's magnetic field more powerful? to me that doesn't make a lot of sense. Maybe someone who know's more could enlighten me?

There is even a whole branch of alternative medicine that uses magnets in shoes and other clothing to help heal people. I think it's more psycological(sp?) than anything.

I don't think China is doing this to make money. This is a test project to make sure the technology works and can be used. The article mentioned a Shanghi-Bejing (sp?) route in the future. You don't just go ahead and build a long route with unproven technology. That's unwise. A small test is best, and this sounds like the perfect testing scenario, heavy traffic, useful, and practical (people have to get to the airport, right?)

Re:Transrapid still WAY too expensive

[joestar]

>Actually, Paris-Lyon is short-distance enough >that a TGV does make sense, because I believe it >takes about 2.5 hours nowadays to travel that >distance by TGV. I takes exactly 2 hours and 4 minutes for 426 km (which gives an average speed of about 213 kmph). The top speed on this line is 300 kmph.

Efficiency in one word:

[Benjamin Shniper]

Mopeds.

-Ben

Re:Transrapid still WAY too expensive

[CSC]

Actually, Paris-Lyon is short-distance enough that a TGV does make sense, because I believe it takes about 2.5 hours nowadays to travel that distance by TGV.

2 hours, give or take 10 min. That's definitely faster than flying, esp. if you consider boarding time ends about ten seconds before departure, and train stations are right in the city centers.

Paris-Marseille should be 3.5 hours. Oh, and Paris-London is 3 hours if you're interested. Flights probably took less of a hit there, as many people connect at Heathrow or Roissy (both are major hubs).

Inductrak System

[dhovis]

I don't think anybody has mentioned this so far, so I will.

There is a group at Lawrence Livermore National Lab that is working on a totally new MagLev system. It is called Inductrak. What is unique about this system is that it uses totally passive technology.

It works by lining the center of the track with passive copper coils and lining the bottom of the train with Hallbach magnets. These Hallbach magnets have two interesing properties. One, they create a sinusoidally varying magnetic field, and two, the poles are aligned so that the magnetic field above the cabinet (i.e. where the passengers are) completely cancels out. What this means is that as the sinusoidally varying field passes over the passive coils, the coils create a repulsive field, but only so long as the train is moving. When the train slows down to below a few miles an hour, it will settle back down on the normal tracks.

The people who are developing this system are now working on a scale model with NASA for possible use in rocket launches.

But the real upshot to this sort of system, as opposed to the system mentioned in the article (Dynamic EM) or other such systems (Superconducting EM) is that the levitation system does not require precice computer control. With either of the other systems, a contol failure could cause a fatal accident. With Inductrack, the worst case scinario is a propulsion failure, in which case the train would simply continue floating until it slows down enough to land on the rails again.

The control issue is one of the major problems that have held back the deployment of large scale MagLev systems for decades. I think that this passive technology is probably going to prove to be the way to go. (IMHO, YMMV, etc.)
--

No, but...

[Anonymous Squonk]

There is a Maglex train in Japan, but it's confined to a 20 mile test track in the boonies. I don't think a "normal" person can ride it.

Re:No, but...

[dcs]

Actually, I think you can. They have visiting days or something like that, and I think there are periods where one can actually catch a demonstration ride.

Of course, there isn't much of a point in catching a train that only stop at one station. :-)

Re:Test installation in Germany

[rorlach]

Absolutley right, shame on me ... mixed up the locations.

Re:Excluding the one in Germany?

[chrischow]

er no, birmingham airport to birmingham international railway station, which is a few hundred metres away

Mega-projects and national pride

[LarsWestergren]

The majority of the Chinese Communist Party stopped being communist almost 20 years ago if you look at the economic perspective (even though some hardline conservatives keep trying to turn back the clock). They have quietly drifted closer and closer to market economy, even though the official media keeps spouting tired old cliches like "The march towards true socialism continues!".

However, some things are harder to let go of. Criticism of the party is still stomped down on HARD, as are all suggestion of a multi-party democracy. Also remaining is a fondness for the old Stalinist type mega-projects. Big is beautiful. Damn the environmental consequences or the fact that smaller projects would make more economic sense. It seems China still suffers somewhat from an inferiority complex and therefore see a need to bolster their national pride with these absurd projects that are an enormous waste of money. The most obvious example is the Three Gorges Project, the world's largest dam.

Corruption, bureaucracy, environmental destruction on an unprecedented scale, *millions* of people homeless, expensive electricity and a dubious safety record. When (if) it is finished, I wouldn't want to live downriver from it for all the whisky in Ireland.

************************************************ ** *

Re:Mega-projects and national pride

[LarsWestergren]

Heh, you are pretty funny. Next time you are going to troll, try to get the countries right first, or at least the continents.
Sweden.....
USA........
Maybe I should get you a World Atlas for your next birtday?

************************************************ ** *

Re:Trains, planes and automobiles

[El Cabri]

I've seen this study about the trip between two French cities. I think the order was, from the most energy efficient to the less energy efficient: - electric, high-speed train (300km/h TGV) - diesel train - car - and way less efficient : plane

Re:Trains, planes and automobiles

[Anonymous Coward]

don't forget that air resistance is proportional to velocity^3 !!

At 900Kph you have a 27times higher air resistance than at 300Kph.

Also the cross section of a train is much smaller than that of a plane.

My personal estimate is that a plane has to face 100 times the air resistance than a train.

Re:Trains, planes and automobiles

[Crio]

Generally, the slower you are moving the smaller amount of energy you spend per kilometer. As most efficient kind of transportation I suggest solar cars :)

Re:What about....

[twinpot]

I'd doubt the bullet train _still_ holds the record for scheduled services. The TGV (France) runs at 350kmh (in certain areas) and Eurostar (at least when it gets to France) cruises at 320kmh (200mph). Funnily enough, doing 320kmh in France seems much slower than 100kmh on the UK side (in the exact same train).

They can climb better and you save money on tunnel

[RedLaggedTeut]

MagLev trains can climb a steeper elevation, thus saving money on tunnels you would have to build instead.
If you every played 1630 or railroad tycoon you will understand the savings.
In addition, they are better at keeping track at higher speeds ( I guess ? ).

These people are in a serious rush

[luckykaa]

It takes 8 minutes - Rather than the 12 or so that a conventional railway will take. What to do with all this saved time?

Re:These people are in a serious rush

[Diana, Goddess Queen]

Bitch about the lines getting on and off, of course!

Re:These people are in a serious rush

[Ice-d]

Well, how's about building in a delay time of four minutes. Which in terms means that you can finally arive in time at your destination (of course according to the old schedule!)

Why?

[James Foster]

Whats the advantage to having a train that floats due to magnetic tracks apart from acting "as a model to display the high-tech achievements of Shanghai"? It sounds like a big waste of money to me. Why not just go for 200 miles of old fashioned track? I assume its also going to need some barriers on both sides to make sure it doesn't lose its balance??

8 minutes

[moz25]

According to the article, the entire ride lasts about 8 minutes. Hhm... they're throwing almost a *billion* bucks at a 20-mile 8 minute ride? How much would the cost be for more realistic distances???

Moz.

maglevs

[Anonymous Coward]

Errrr.... dont those bullet trains in Japan run on mag fields ?? Here in the UK we still run on steam - we are waitng for diesels to come into service, but we have been promised 2050 at the earliest

Trains, planes and automobiles

[macpeep]

Does anyone know of a study about how much fuel / passenger various types of transportation methods use? I mean, for a given distance, how much energy is used to get one passenger from A to B for planes vs. trains. vs. cars vs. ships? I know this varies by type of plane etc. but some kind of ballpark figures would be interesting. One would think a train at 350km/h is much more fuel-efficient than a plane at 900km/h but who knows.. For short trips when a proportionally large amount of time is spent on crowded airports and during takeoff and landings, the time difference should also not be so significant vs a train that gets you from A to B without delays and without holding patterns.

In slightly unrelated news, be sure to checkout Microsoft's upcoming train sim at http://www.microsoft.com/games/trainsim ! It looks like something every train fan out there would dream of!

Re:Trains, planes and automobiles

[stevelinton]

Trains and planes both have very efficient engines, and expend almost all their thrust overcoming air resistance. Trains also lose a little in rolling resistance and some to turbulence because they are close to the ground. Planes move faster, and must waste some thrust on lift, but travel through less dense air. Trains have denser air at slower speeds, and can pull more people behind one front cross-section (in other words they are longer). Cars are way less efficient in all respects, but move much more slowly.

Re:Trains, planes and automobiles

[iebee]

one off the nice things about trains (well, electric and maglev): they don't have to carry their own fuel, which makes them a lot more efficient (just compare the "dry" and "wet" weight of a commercial airliner)

There are much better systems available.

[Anonymous Coward]

Hi,

as several other slashdot readers have pointed out, the german transrapid system has a very high energy consumption and is extremely expensive. The transrapid was a fantastic achievement when it was developed some 20 years ago. But as usual, nobody in germany wanted to build it. The technology remained more or less the same for the last 20 years:

The transrapid is based on linear motors in the track, so a 200km long track is basically a 200km long electric motor. This makes the whole design extremely expensive to build and to maintain. Since the transrapid relies on active, attracting interaction between electric magnets in the tracks and electric magnets in the vehicle, it consumes a lot of energy just to stay afloat.

There is a newer system based on passive, repelling interaction between permanent magnets in the vehicle and inactive conductor loops in the track that is much more intelligent and energy efficient. This system is developed by the lawrence livermore laboratory, but the idea is not new.

What makes this concept possible are the tremendous achievements in developing very strong and durable permanent magnets. There are permanent magnets available today that generate a magnetic field in excess of one tesla! (It is quite funny to work with those: If two of them stick together, it is almost impossible to separate them again. The only way to do it is to put one of them into a wrench and then slide the other one away to the side). So the real achievements in maglev transportations will not come from superconductivity, but from some exotic samarium cobalt permanent magnets!

So the chinese would have been better served by waiting a few years and then buying a newer system from the U.S. or from Japan. But maybe they did not want to do this for political reasons...

but it will be really interesting to see the new maglev systems...

bye,

A.C.

Excluding the one in Germany?

[minginqunt]

It will only be the first maglev train if you exclude the Hamburg-Berlin-Cologne-(Amsterdam?) maglev train, being built by TransRapid , under construction in Germany, due to open in 2007.

Don't you just love it when journalists do a bit of research?

Re:Excluding the one in Germany?

[rorlach]

The Plan has been dropped a year ago.

Re:Excluding the one in Germany?

[yabHuj]

According to the Transrapid info web page (German language) http://www.mvp.de/tr/eigen.html the system is ~6dB less noisy (1/4 perceived loudness) than a TGV or an ICE at same speed. At the same noise level the Transrapid can go ~100km/h faster than TGV or ICE.

The electric/magnetic field is comparable with a TV set in 3m distance - so not much. Depending on the Transrapid generation you either have high voltage lines within the rail (old) or static magnets for inductive energy transfer (new).

The trick with the latter: you only have a static local magnet field. The (fast) moving Transrapid percieves this local field as alternating magnetic field which is converted to electricity to power the carried batteries. No (dangerous) high voltage lines, no alternating magnetic fields.

Re:Excluding the one in Germany?

[pmc]

And also excluding the actual first one, which was in the UK connecting Birmingham airport to the city centre. This was in 1984 (and it is now closed).

Ho hum, another non-story.

Re:Excluding the one in Germany?

[sxpert]

From that web page:

In the U.S., Studies are underway for a Transrapid system connecting Las Vegas with Southern California, with possible later north-south extensions throughout California.

Now, I'm worried... How are they going to power this ???
Californians beware... lights are gonna dim every day

not the 1st!

[MattLG]

Actually the first commercial maglev was operated at Birmingham International Airport in the UK. It operated for several years, transporting people from the train station to the airport until they realised it was more cost effective to run a shuttle bus instead. Sorry to burst everyone's bubble on this.

Maglev

[Crypthanatopsis]

Better not take your laptop with you, or any other magnetic storage eqipment, for that matter....

hypocrites

[axzaetus]

Why are so many of you open-source "believers" knocking China's efforts to modernize? Who cares that it's not the first? The simple fact that lazy Americans haven't invested much in this revolutionary techonology is no surprise, considering their latent dependency on gasoline to fuel their egos. When they realize that the world's (current oil-based) economy does NOT have to inflate the prices of commodities like milk and toilet paper every time the Arabian peninsula decides not to produce as much, it will be a great day. How does this happen? It needs to be brought into public consciousness that maglevs consume (at 400km/h ~ 250m/h) only .2kN of energy per seat, versus ~.6kN per seat for automobiles and ~1.0kN per seat for aircraft. 1 billion people live in China, and if citizens there owned on average as many as American citizens, the Middle Eastern reserves would dry up quicker than the drool on freeway drivers' faces. So what if it's expensive? So are 2GHz processors, but that doesn't seem to morally rattle people. Kudos for China for taking the initiative to possibly skip an automobile-dominated phase of societal growth. ~axzaetus

could be cool...

[bommels]

Would have been a lot *cooler* and much less a waste of energy if they used superconductive coils instead....

Test installation in Germany

[rorlach]

There is a testing track in Wuppertal, Germany, also just a few km long. Building the line btw. Hamburg-Berlin (estm. 300 km) would have ruined the countries traffic household for decades. Regarding energy efficency, amortization and sifi-factor its more related to space travel agencies.

What about....

[myosin]

the japanese shinkansen (bullet train) - isnt that a maglev train?

-----
"Almost isn't good enough - but it's almost good enough."

Re:What about....

[sxpert]

nope, that's similar to France's TGV tech (and seems to have been copied from there). Besides, the fastest it can go is about 200Km/h (150mph)

Re:is it the first?

[artg]

No, the DLR's conventional tracks.
It's interesting techy feature is that it has no driver in the cab.

Hmmm....

[Chanc_Gorkon]

I thought I saw this on here before. I guess not. I did a quick search, but this is the only China Maglev on Slashdot, but I did here about the China Maglev train before. Saw it somewhere (maybe Reuters or Yahoo) before today.

Technical Data (Re:The distances and the capacity)

[yabHuj]

*bzzzt*

The Transrapid is not using superconducting coils - but conventional e-magnets instead (combined lift and propulsion system). If there is a power outage it will drop onto its carbon-fibre braking sleds after the internal, constantly re-charged batteries have run dry.

More info on the (German language, sorry) Transrapid project page:
http://www.mvp.de/

A few facts: 128m length for 562 passengers, it only takes 165 seconds (or 16km) to reach 430km/h due to its ~25MW power linear motor. The energy consumption and noise is measurably lower than a comparable train (German ICE, French TGV, Japanese Shinkansen).

Too late to be first...

[dcs]

Japan is already too advanced in their own maglev project. They already have a good section of it, on which they have been conducting experiments, and I find it difficult anything China starts doing _now_ will get finished before the Tokyo-Osaka line.

It's an amazing leap

[krystal_blade]

China also announced today that not only are they going to build the worlds first Maglev train, which promises to reduce pollution via mass transit;

They have also announced that they are beginning the development of the automobile, which they say promises to produce much more pollution (with which, of course, future maglev trains will spawn) than their current ECO-threatening device, the bicycle.

krystal_blade

Build own maglev

[delay]

Hehe. I am from Germany, but I would be aftaid to sell the Transrapid to China. The next thing that will happen is that China will produce an own much cheeper plastic-maglev after they reverse-enineered our proud enineer's work of two decades *g*

Shinkansen

[dcs]

No, the japanese bullet trains do not run on maglev at all.

The japanese *do* have a maglev project, though, and they have a few miles of it they use for various tests.

is it the first?

[chrischow]

birmingham airport have had a magnetic train since the early 80s, its called the Maglev funnily enough

though it was shut down recently.

this one is a lot longer though, 30+ km, the brum one was more like 300m

Just a highspeed train

[rorlach]

Like similiar trains in France (TGC) and Germany (ICE) still having ground contact ... until they crash

Uk Magleve line is a huge 600 meters

[acomj]

that's been replaced by shuttle busses.

scientific AMERICAN has the story... "Two years ago the world's only magnetically levitated train in commercial service shut down. It had carried riders for a 90-second trip between the airport in Birmingham, England, and a conventional rail line 600 meters"

see the link http://www.sciam.com/1097issue/1097stix_maglev.htm l

Transrapid still WAY too expensive

[RayChuang]

I think while it's nice that finally we'll see a major commercial application of maglev technology, the problem is that the cost of a Transrapid maglev on a per kilometer basis is WAY too expensive for what it does.

Already, a breakthrough announced in late 1999 promises to make Transrapid obselete; a bunch of Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory (LLNL) engineers trying to develop a better way to launch rockets into space cheaply came up with maglev system that uses mostly cheap permanent magnets to move the train along without the very precise engineering that the Transrapid needs.

They're now in the process of scaling up the technology to see if it will work on a larger scale; if it does, the US could actually take the lead on maglev research since the US will have by far the least expensive technology necessary to build a maglev train that goes between 400 and 500 km/h (248 to 310 mph).

Maglev's could drastically change transportation as we know it. Imagine going from downtown Chicago to downtown Minneapolis in under two hours, or Atlanta to Miami via Orlando, FL in just under three hours. It could make short-distance air travel obselete on any corridor where the maglev train is running.

PRT

[Ian Bicking]

For that matter, we only have a half-dozen to dozen cities where local mass transict *can* be practical.

For conventional public transit, I think that is probably correct. I mean, I live in Chicago, which would probably be one of those cities, and it's still rather crappy. They are going to spend $380 million dollars renovating 6 miles of the El. That's insane. That's a tremendous waste of money.

However, I don't think things are entirely lost. I really think Personal Rapid Transit could work in most US cities. The quick summary, is small cars (one to three people) running on elevated tracks (but very small tracks, since the vehicles are light), with automated navigation (which is really easy, unlike cars, because they are on tracks).

The great part is that it doesn't require any special technology. It uses wheels, electric motors, and tracks on stilts. Nothing very expensive. Only the automated navigation is slightly technologically difficult, but I think that is quite doable. Even running at 30 or 35mph, it's still far faster than other forms of public transportation when considering the total travel time (including waiting, transfering, and walking to your final destination). In Chicago, it would be faster than driving most of the time.

People are of the perception that public transit has to be high-volume to be efficient, but that's not really the case -- if you can move people in a more parallel fashion, it can be efficient on a smaller scale. In this case, you don't stop until you get to your destination, and the cars can run fairly close together.

Sadly, governments just keep putting money into light rail, which is a complete waste. I wish it wasn't so -- but it just doesn't work, it's too slow, too irregular, and doesn't get people where they want to go.

Anyway, for someone who is interested in PRT, there's information to be found at Taxi 2000 (well, that name doesn't make sense anymore, does it?) and Citizens for PRT.

Leaves on the track....

[tonywestonuk]

In the UK one of the standard excuses for trains not running on time is 'Leaves on the track'! - The wheels cannot grip the rails, and therefor cann't get going. Magenetic tracks obviously do not have this problem. Also, at increasing speeds, when a combination of aerodynamics, and minor glitches in the track also cause the wheels to loose friction, so there comes a point where any more energy put into the wheels will cause them to wheel-spin, and not increase the trains velocity... In theory, a maglev trains can travel at speeds > that of sound, but I doubt that the nearby residence would approve of the sonic boom!!

it's about capacity

[q000921]

It means the line has 50% more capacity. It may also create considerably less noise at high speeds, which both passengers and nearby residents probably appreciate.

Energy Guzzling?

[Mnemia]

Although the article states that maglev technology has been criticized as energy inefficient, I was under the impression that the technology could actually be very efficient, at least in theory. In the future, it may be possible to create large superconducting electromagnets that would suspend the train without consuming energy. Then the only energy consumed would be energy used by seperate propulsion magnets (to overcome air resistance as the train moves forward) and energy consumed to keep the superconductors frozen. This technology could in the future decrease fuel consumption, especially if higher-temperature superconductors are developed.