Ask Guido van Rossum

This week's interview is with Guido van Rossum, a man who, as they say, needs no introduction. (Not around here, at least.) To learn a bit more about him, check his personal page. You might want to ask him about Python 2.1, which was released today. One question per person, please. We'll send 10 of the highest-moderated ones to Guido about 24 hours after this post went up, and will run his answers as soon as he gets them back to us.

Comments

Favourite Python sketch?

[abischof]

Considering that you named the language after the comedy troupe, what's your favourite Monty Python sketch? Personally, my favourite is the lecture on sheep aircraft, but I suppose that's a discussion for another time ;).

Alex Bischoff
---

Re:Python 3000

[cduffy]

I've got to disagree with you wrt the C API -- I find it quite pleasent (and though I haven't worked with TCL, I do have prior experience with the C APIs of Perl and, to a limited extend, Scheme). Threading, on the other hand, is a real issue (has Stackless Python resolved it?) and I'm as interested as you to find out when it'll be fixed in the official Python implementation.

Of course, there's also JPython, which has fantastic integration between Java and Python code, and resolves the threading thing... so if yer extending Java code, it's really a no-brainer (IMHO).

Re:Performance

[Ian Bicking]

Forget that other guy -- of course Python is interpreted, just like everything else: it all comes down to machine code, which the CPU interprets.

There has been efforts, most notably the (currently inactive, I believe) static typing SIG, which would make it possible to make code that could be efficiently translated to machine code (also known as "compiling"). Static typing is by no means required to translate to machine code, but it would probably make that faster.

An interesting option might be something like Squeak did, with a subset of the language that can be efficiently translated into C (and then compiled). This is something like what the static type SIG was aproaching -- not quite Python, but something that could run in the conventional CPython interpreter, wouldn't necessarily require any knowledge of C or assembly, but could run fast.

Of course, it is also possible to simply compile Python into system code just as it is (well, if someone wrote the compiler). There is nothing that makes Python inherently interpreted. The problem, however, would be in the efficiency of that code. A naive attempt to do this would probably be slower than CPython. OTOH, compilers for Scheme (which have many similar issues as Python) have produced very fast code (on par with C). In particular, Stalin is very fast (though there are others which are very fast as well) -- sometimes faster than C. Python doesn't have any of the huge flaws that languages like, say, Tcl have in this regard. Some operations are difficult in compiled environments -- like getattr or eval -- but they could still be possible, or they could be left out (since much code doesn't use them). OTOH, all the best Python code uses them.

Re:does Python need a CPAN?

[Ian Bicking]

There has already been work towards this, particularly in the last few months.

distutils fulfills some of the functionality required for a Python CPAN. I think it has reached a state of relative maturity -- it may be asked to do more later, but it does what it needs to well right now.

There has also been some discussion and implementation of methods to describe and upload modules, which would probably be included in distutils or something related when they mature. I think at that point, along with a little infrastructure on the web, Python will have its own little CPAN. I know CPAN does more than this, but not all that much more, and it's something that should be grown into.

I couldn't find what I was really looking for on the subject, but maybe this thread would be a starting place. There's more stuff elsewhere as well. This message (from that thread) gives a nice overview of what's necessary for CPAN, I think. And I guess the whole discussion starts here.

Do you believe in Object Oriented Programming?

[defile]

Almost every modern high-level application language today supports, and perhaps forces the Object Oriented Paradigm (OOP). Students are encouraged to define and use objects whenever possible. Python's standard library seems nothing but objects. Java is the same. Newer technologies, like SOAP/Microsoft .Net/blahh are the apex of this concept.

When I refer to the OOP, I mean the drive to decompose all programming into components, not necessarily the individual concept of having classes with methods and constructors and context-sensitive results, etc

Application developers accept the OOP as the only way and consider those who refuse it to be uncivilized coder barbarians. Clearly, one can only bring sanity to programming via the OOP. But what is it really bringing?

Most of the ideas that the OOP promotes are good programming practice anyway. That is absolutely not what I hate about the OOP.

In the very ideal cases, you can create a reusable object/module that other people can enjoy. This is very rare, though. UNIX is a good example of an easy to use interface that allows for massive code reuse. The Win32 API, while affording code reuse, has a miserable interface that makes Windows programming a chore.

Without going into a huge tirade; Modularity on that level is good. It's worth it to struggle with the interface, because the alternative is 100 man-years worth of functionality that you need to implement. On a much reduced level, trying to deal with the OOP just doesn't seem worth it.

The problem with the OOP is that it encourages all code to be tiny little modules with it's own unique domain, which helps complicate the code both visually and in terms of execution.

For every beautifully designed reusable component, you have a thousand more that are confined to a single project and do nothing but add complexity and visual noise to an otherwise simple idea.

The Objects Everywhere philosophy seems to promote complexity, rather than simplicity. The less code, the easier it is to understand, the better off it'll be. Python does achieve many of these goals, but I can't understand why the push to OO'ize it all.

Bad programmers can write bad code no matter what, and there's a vast army of bad programmers out there, but I'm not sure I've ever seen good code that employs the Objects Everywhere ideal.

Does this make sense? What are your thoughts?

Re:Indentation?

[Jason Earl]

Good programmers indent nested blocks, but that's just to make the code easier to read. The parser doesn't care.

That's really the beautty of Python's whitespace blocks. Both the programmer and the parser are looking at the same cues for block nesting. I am sure you have debugged C code that was missing a brace (or worse that had one misplaced) but was still indented "correctly." Your mind thinks that everything is hunky dory because the code "looks" right. This doesn't happen very often if you are a skilled C coder (with an intelligent text editor), but it does happen. And it happens a lot with newbie programmers. I was teaching my little brother Perl at one point, and he had all sorts of trouble with braces. However, when we switched to Python there was no longer any need for him to think about which braces matched up. I didn't believe that Python's significant whitespace was a good idea either, at first, but I am a believer now.

Oh yeah, and since the Vim % command (jump to matching bracket) doesn't work with Python code, do you know of a macro to replace it?

I am not a vi user, so I can't help you there.

Other languages

[NewWazoo]

What other languages do you use? Why do you use them? Are any of them better than python? When can I expect Parrot to be released? ;-)

TheNewWazoo

Re:Data Structures Library

[AMK]

Queues can be done using Python lists; linked lists could be done using tuples or lists. AVL trees and B-trees are available in persistent forms (through the BerkeleyDB library, for example), and there's a BTrees package inside the ZODB. PEP 218 proposes a built-in type for sets, but there doesn't seem to be much agreement on what people want from a set type. Some people want fast intersection operations and some don't care; some want; some people want an O(1) membership test and some people don't care; it seems difficult to write a set type that's equally speedy for all possible applications.

Re:Garbage Collection

[AMK]

Note that Python 2.0 included a cycle-detection algorithm, so reference cycles do get cleaned up now. See the Modules/gcmodule.c file in the Python source distribution, and the GC module docs.

Stackless Python?

[Tumbleweed]

Do you have any plans to merge Stackless Python with Python? If yes, when? If not, why not?

Re:Stackless Python?

[segmond]

I dobut he will, stackless is amazing, but I dobut it, I mean, there are many python implementations with many nifty things, how about Jpython? When does it stop? But I sure look forward to it tho, as far as it doesn't bloat it. :)~~

Re:Komodo

[crisco]

Since the original question referenced VB and Kylix I'm assuming the poster wants a 'GUI builder' type of IDE. I believe the most common Python approach to GUI widgets is through Tk. In that case the question might be, are there any Tk GUI builders that handle Python. I don't know the answer, I'll leave the searching as a reader exercise. There are a couple of basic IDEs for Python, the Windows version even comes with the install. These are about on par with Komodo, faster but with different features.

Chris Cothrun
Curator of Chaos

Ruby

[Luke]

Thoughts on Ruby?

microthreads, stackless python

[XNormal]

Is there any chance that stackless and microthreads might be integrated into the main python distribution?

-

Conflict with GPL

[MAXOMENOS]

The Free Software foundation mentions the license that comes with Python versions 1.6b1 and later as being incompatible with the GPL. In particular they have this to say about it:

This is a free software license but is incompatible with the GNU GPL. The primary incompatibility is that this Python license is governed by the laws of the "State" of Virginia in the USA, and the GPL does not permit this.

So, my question is a two parter:

1. What was your motivation for saying that Python's license is governed by the laws of Virginia?
2. Is it possible that a future Python license could be GPL-compatible again?

ObJectBridge (GPL'd Java ODMG) needs volunteers.

Re:Conflict with GPL

[maw]

It was Guido's former employer, CNRI, which caused the license to be covered under the laws of Virginia. As Guido was working for CNRI, CNRI holds the rights for a significant portion of Python. If and when there is no longer any CNRI code in Python, most likely the license will be changed to something less GPL unfriendly.
--

Re:Conflict with GPL

[segmond]

Does the license matter? It is not like your source code or bytecode is subjected to the license. I say, if you are so GPL nuts, let the free software foundation write their own implementation.

Re:Conflict with GPL

[Spooge Demon]

Technically Virginia is a Commonwealth, not a State (nor "State" for that matter).

--

Python 3000

[Xar]

It's been a while since I've seen any mention of Python 3000--aside from the recent April Fools joke, that is. I love Python as a language, and use it both professionally and personally. But, Python's current implementation is lacking; the interpreter is not multi-threaded, causing large Python applications (such as Zope) to implement various workarounds that only partly address the problem; and the C API is rather...unpleasant. Working with the Tcl C API in an embedding situation is much, much better, IMO. Will Python 3000 address any of these concerns? Any information on a timeline, or current status?

Re:Python 3000

[segmond]

From someone who has used the Python C API, I have to disagree with you, in no way do I find it unpleasant, it is so easy to work with, compare it to Perl C extension API, I haven't played with TCL C API, but you might be comparing apple and oranges, as we know tcl and python are on two different levels. A comparasion with Perl and Ruby will be more appopriate.

How will nested scopes affect performance?

[MSG]

First, I feel obligated to state that I think Python is totally tits. I love it. Thank you.

Reading "What's New in Python 2.1", I'm curious about nested scopes. Given that name lookup has always been the cause of poor performance in Python (or so I've heard), it would initially seem that introducing nested scopes would further reduce the speed at which Python scripts run if you use this feature.

Is there any information available about Python's performance with this addition?

Structured Design.

[Xerithane]

First off, as a disclaimer I have never actually written anything in Python. But, I have read up on virtually all the introduction articles and tutorials so I have a grasp on syntax and structure.

I have been doing C development for 9 years now, and I know a plethora of other languages including shell scripting, perl, PHP (for scripts). Now, each language uses 'normal' grouping for control structures (if, for, etc).

What was the logic behind creating a whitespace-based syntax rule? And why do you feel it is good, please refrain from the readability answer because that is all I get from those people I know who know Python.

I find, because of my background, it is much easier to read code that uses braces ({}) than whitespace because my mind automatically looks for them. After maintaining legacy code that extends a life span of 20 years from it's first line of code, I have some concerns about the longevity of any Python code. So, my second question is, how well do you see Python holding up for 20 years and why do you think it will hold up that long?

Thanks.

Re:Structured Design.

[NMerriam]

What was the logic behind creating a whitespace-based syntax rule? And why do you feel it is good, please refrain from the readability answer because that is all I get from those people I know who know Python.

Well, that's the answer, i'm not sure why it isn't acceptable. One of the main stated goals with Python is that they didn't want a language that had completely different formatting depending on who wrote it, so they made formatting part of the language. This makes it much easier for non-programmers (like me) and beginning programmers to pick it up.

I find, because of my background, it is much easier to read code that uses braces

but someone with no programming backgound wouldn't have that bias, so if you're inventing a new language, why feel hindered by older syntactic conventions?

---------------------------------------------

Re:Structured Design.

[ChadN]

There is a tool (whose name I've forgotton, unfortunately), that adds #{ and #} to python files as block delimiters (consider it as optional bracket syntax).

The tool can convert back and forth to allow for use in indentation hostile environments. :) Can anyone give the name of the tool I'm thinking of?

Re:Structured Design.

[Valdrax]

I will admit that that method, dating back to Ada, Pascal, and the venerable ALGOL, does have its merits for long pieces of code. Typically, it enforces spacing as well, since single-line statements just don't look right in this style of language or may be against the grammar.

I like Python's style and I like the ALGOL-derived style as well.

Re:Structured Design.

[Valdrax]

What was the logic behind creating a whitespace-based syntax rule? And why do you feel it is good, please refrain from the readability answer because that is all I get from those people I know who know Python.

I fail to see why there would be any other reason. Furthermore, I fail to see why there should even need to be a better reason. Why do you have whitespace at all? There are only 2 real answers: easy parser writing and human readability.

Python's style makes it easy to see blocks of logic. It also forces you to think about how your code is organized by exposing these blocks to you at all times. Braces, parentheses, brackets, etc. are easy to lose track of in complex single-line statements. You have to spend too much time thinking about whether or not you've got your puncuation matched up properly. Python eliminates this confusion by exposing logical blocks. Besides, properly formatted and readable C code should already be spaced out like a Python program. Python just eliminates the redundant punctuation.

Typically, the people who complain the loudest about enforcing spacing in syntax are the same people who write those tangled, dense, single-line statements in C and Perl that inspired their respected obfuscated code contests. You don't need the ability to cram 5 lines of Python in 1 line of Perl. It just hurts maintainability, and there's really no compelling argument for keeping source code dense and compact anymore if it doesn't add speed and remove bloat. (Forgive me if I have unfairly tarred you with this brush, but this has been my general experience.)

(In response to another post:)
Also, I've never seen a source-control system mess with the spacing of a file before. That's just odd. Be consistent with using either spaces OR tabs and your Python code will be much easier to store. I'm not saying it doesn't happen. I'm just saying that bugs in certain tools that weren't written with Python in mind shouldn't be a black mark against the whole language.

Re:Structured Design.

[Malcontent]

I prefer the (new) php style of using keywords instead of spaces or brackets. I find it easier to keep track of multiple levels of indentation.
Example:
if ($foo):
while ($fee):
buncha code
endwhile;
endif;

If the buncha code fills up your screen it's easy to grok what's going on at the end of control structures. For every control structure php provides a keyword for the end.

Re:Structured Design.

[Malcontent]

"Wow. Imagine a Beowulf Cluster of morons."

Oh man I can't resists...

Microsoft
Where I work
Slashdot
United States of America
Washington DC

GUI? Tkinter?

[Lumpish Scholar]

(It has to be asked every once in a while.)

Any movement away from Tkinter, and toward something else, as the pretty-much-standard programming interface for graphical user interfaces?

Any movement towards a Tk library that *doesn't* use Tcl?

Legacy vs. Ease and Cleanliness

[JohnZed]

Programmers frequently praise Python for its generally clean syntax, its ease of use (as in CP4E), and its "Batteries Included" philosophy. As a PyUser myself, I have to agree that these are fantastic features.
I'm interested, though, in the conflict between library design and legacy habits. Would you suggest that C-isms like "popen2", "execlp", "sys.argv", and "socket(AF_INET, SOCK_STREAM)" really belong in a "clean" language in the long run?
Is there any chance that we'll someday see a standard library extension that (much like Java's libraries) allows developer to program in English rather than UNIXglish?
Thanks!
--JRZ

Ruby

[jilles]

I've recently come across Ruby and I must say that at first site it has all the features (after all it was inspired by python) that made python a success and some more. What are your impressions of this language and would you be willing to give up python for it or some other language?

Python and UML

[Rocky Mudbutt]

I have seen a couple of Java based Unified Modeling Language tools but no Python support or implementation. It would seem natural to develop in python based on UML, so this must be a large gap in the python suite. What do you think of designing with UML and implementing in python?

Thorn is an opensource UML editor written in Java with JPython scripting but no python code generation.

ArgoUML is an opensource UML editor written in Java with no current python code generation

macro viruses

[Dr. Tom]

i notice that the release of 2.1 isn't signed or even checksummed. what will you do in the future to ensure that mirror sites don't supply versions infected with macro viruses or changes to the core? nobody has time to audit a 4 meg download, and everybody runs "configure" right away (downloading an executable and running it -- idiotic, eh?).

Blind people?

[rhaig]

I have some friends that are extremely talented programmers that find python very difficult to use because it relies on whitespace for code block delineation. They're blind. With that in mind, is it still a great idea to use whitespace (not braces) just so the code will all look alike?

Re:Komodo

[Pengo]

Have you actually used Komodo?

even compared to Visual Basic it really sucks... like.. REALLY sucks. I would be embarrased to ship a program built with that IDE builder.


--------------------
Would you like a Python based alternative to PHP/ASP/JSP?

Python IDE

[Pengo]

Do you know if there are any projects on it's way to compete with Kylx or Visual Basic based on Python.


--------------------
Would you like a Python based alternative to PHP/ASP/JSP?

Performance

[debrain]

Is it possible to make Python as fast as C/C++? In particular, is there a way to compile Python into system code (as opposed to byte code)? If there isn't, will there ever be?

Re:Performance

[segmond]

No, Python is interpreted, it is a tradeoff, the speed you get from python is in terms of development, for very large projects you might see one line of python code for ten lines of C code or one line of python code for 5-7 lines of C++ code. Take your pick. Nevertheless, Python has an API that allows you to invoke functions written in C and C++. As programmers, you know the 80/20 rule, 20% of your program takes 80% of the time, you can code that 20% in C/C++, and the rest in python, then with the API call that 20%, thus saving incredible time in development.

Re:Why is Python not whitespace-ignorant?

[Valdrax]

There have been a few other posts about this. See my earlier response to another post about that here.

I'll answer your post with a question. Why should a programmer be free to style their code anyway they want?

The point of a programming language is to communicate instructions to a computer in human-readable format. I still maintain that people who complain about being forced to write readable code are the ones who write the most unreadable code. TMTOWDTI, Perl's motto, is the main reason that when the first Obfuscated Perl Code contest was announced, many Slashdotter's joked that it was redundant. Consistent style is a necessity for maintainability. It helps to allow others (and maybe yourself a year later) to understand what you were doing when you wrote a piece of code.

Honestly, if you think everyone should be able to write code in whatever style they see fit, you've never worked on a large project before. Languages with more freedom just force people to place other personal standards on how their code must be formatted within their project or lose readability of code as multiple programmer styles conflict. Python forces a consistent standard across all development, making it an great relief to maintain.

Implementing Everything in Python

[jfunk]

I recently started using Python and I now use it for everything, including an interactive shell. Thanks.

One thing I see in Python-land is that there is a tendency to implement everything in Python. I just submitted a design for a program that I want to write in Python and I used Sketch for diagrams, despite having CorelDraw for Linux right here. It seems that no Python programmer is happy with having a component written in another language. Many other languages don't interoperate as well as in Python but those programmers seem happy with mixing Perl and C, for example. Look at Zope. It has it's own web server. I know it's faster, but why do you think this is happening with Python specifically?

Strangest use of Python

[Salamander]

What use of Python have you found that surprised you the most, that gave you the strongest "I can't believe they did that" reaction?

Re:efficient compilation and standardization

[segmond]

I personally believe that Python bytecode is very efficent, take the case of Java bytecode, it is just as efficent, to over optimize it will put very serious constraints on what python does and can do, it is a simple tradeoff, the speed in python all lies in RAD.

Re:Data Structures Library

[segmond]

You have all the data structures you need, perhaps your skills are lacking. A list is already given with you, with that list you can implement a stack, queue, etc using the existing methods! A dictionary is given to you, with which you can implement a set/hashtables, the only thing that isn't native is trees, which is very easy. What I will like to see tho, is a Collections framework just as in Java, that would be cool.

Re:[j | c]Python

[segmond]

I think it is very wonderful, I can't stop talking about JPython, the best of both worlds, mixing python and java, coding with pythons wonderful fun interpretter environment, and getting to use stable java libraries. Saves so much time with the java compile cycle, yet, you can write your java servlet or a swing application in python. Guido probably doesn't care, his work is python, but this shows java's potential.

self

[segmond]

The most annoying thing in python for me, is when walking with classes, and having to reference all local variables and method with the self class. self.It self.gets self.annoying self.and self.I self.believe self.it self.reduces self.readability. As you can see, lots of "selfs" over your screen is annoying, I know that there is a hack out there to remedy that, but is there any immediate plan to fix that in the future?

wxPython

[segmond]

Is there any plan to adopt wxPython (www.wxpython.org) as the GUI standard? The Tk interface looks butt ugly, and I am sure you have heard that many times, what do you see as the advantages and disadvatages for using wxPython over Tinker?

Every language needs a CPAN.

[Malcontent]

This is the greatest contribution of the perl community. A true example of code re-use.

Komodo

[wiredog]

KomodoAt Active State.

[j | c]Python

[seanw]

How do you see the relationship between jPython (the java implementation) and standard cPython (the original C language version) evolving? And do you see the advantages of either one (i.e. portability vs. speed) becoming especially pronounced in light of the recent trend toward distributed software (ala the MS .NET initiative)?

sean

Static typing

[Peter Eckersley]

Python is a really snazzy language, but one limitation to its flexibility is the absence of static typing.

It seems that (optional) static types would enable the creation of practical python compilers, and could also provide much more in the way of pre-execution error detection.

I've heard rumours that static typing might be in the pipeline for Python. Is there any truth to these rumours, and if so, how might they be implemented?

Why "None"?

[po_boy]

First, thanks for Python!

I have long wondered why the value None in python is named "None". It's pretty common in other languages to call that thing (or something very similar) "NULL". Were you trying to differentiate None and NULL in some way, or do you just like the way "None" sounds as you read code?

does Python need a CPAN?

[po_boy]

One of the reasons I still write some things in PERL is because I know that I can find and install about a zillion modules quickly and easily through the CPAN repository and CPAN module. I'm pretty sure that if Python had something similar, like the Vaults of Parnassus but more evolved that I would abandon PERL almost entirely.

Do you see things in a similar way? If so, why has Python not evolved something similar or better, and what can I do to help it along in this realm?

Politeness

[eAndroid]

I know first hand that you have an uncanny ability to remain calm and level-headed. I emailed you once a flame--it even contained several instances of "DIE"--that while done with some jest was quite insulting. Your reply was not only civil but combined with the fact that you even bothered to reply left me feeling quite embarassed (and rightly so).

What is your secret for keeping your cool when discussions get heated, particularly when techies tend to be very loyal to their causes?

Honestly, now

[Devil's Avocado]

Don't you ever get sick of talking about Python? Are there times when you just want to talk about your collection of scotch-tape dispensers or your love of shuffleboard? Do you feel sad that people pidgeonhole you as "Guido van Rossum, the Python guy" or "Guido van Rossum, the father of Python", when perhaps you'd prefer to be "Guido van Rossum, the ballet dancer" or "Guido van Rossum, the Buddhist monk"?

In all seriosity (?) are there times when you overload on Python and just have to get away for a while?

-DA

Development of Language Bindings

[Rexifer]

How closely does the primary Python development team interact with the other language binding efforts (mainly Jython)? Anyone who's hung out in Slashdot seems to have a rabid attachment towards their native tounge, so to speak, and I've found it refreshing that the Python community "plays nice". Is there a lot of cross-pollenation(sic) between the groups?

Thanks.

Re:Data Structures Library

[GrEp]

Python is about simplicity of expression. When doing advanced programming it is nice to have a large set of encapsulated data structures. After coding a data structure 5-6 times it ceases to be instructional.

You can look up data structures anywhere, but developing clean algorithms takes "skills".

bash-2.04$

Data Structures Library

[GrEp]

I love python for making quick hacks, but the one thing that I haven't seen is a comprehensive data structures library. Is their one in development that you would like to comment about or point us to?

bash-2.04$

Re:Python's Relation to Knuth's Conjecture

[OmegaDan]

I've actually written a porn bot in python/glade ... "beelzebot" ... :) Its an automated usenet porn downloader/decoder.

Re:Python's Relation to Knuth's Conjecture

[OmegaDan]

When its done :)

Language Specification

[patnotz]

While I love many things about python, one thing bothers me. It seems that it's the interpreter that defines the language rather than a language defining how the interpreter should act. One example is the "++", "--" etc. operators and another is the functionality path module. I often write scripts with 2.0 at work only to find thy don't run on my Debian 2.2 system at home (stable Debian's python is 1.5.2).

Are there any plans to set some kind of standard language specification that will hold for a while?

Fat snakes don't hunt

[graybeard]

I learned Python from the "Internet Programming" book, and I love the lean and mean Python. Because of the recent burst of development, it seems to me that lots of new features are being stuffed into the language. Is my perception correct? Is there a danger that Python will forfeit two of its best features, simplicity and cohesiveness, merely to appease a few complainers?

Python's Relation to Knuth's Conjecture

[matroid]

In the upcoming volume IV of Knuth's TAOCP, Seminumerical Searches for Hoaring Triplets, he conjectures the following about the Theory of Programming Languages:

Computers are ultimately a tool for their users. As such, modern programming languages should allow the users of these inherently unwieldy tools means of effective and efficient control. In volume 1 of TAOCP, we proved that all computer uses fall into one of two categories: searching for pr0n and viewing pr0n. Thus, any modern computer language should have as its core requirement the shortest semantic expressions for searching and viewing pr0n. (As usual, I will cheerfully pay $2.56 to the first finder of any pr0n that I have not already found).

Along these lines, I pose the following questions:

1. How effective is python at finding me pr0n?
2. What is the shortest python program that you know of that will allow me to veiw such pr0n?
3. Do you have any good pr0n?
4. Of Donald Knuth?

Thank you.

What is *your* idea of Python and its future?

[Scarblac]

There are a lot of "golden Python rules" or whatever you would call them, like "explicit is better than implicit", "there should be only one way to do it", that sort of thing. As far as I know, those are from old posts to the mailing list, often by Tim Peters, and they've become The Law afterwards. In the great tradition of Usenet advocacy, people who suggest things that go against these rules are criticized. But looking at Python, I see a lot more pragmatism, not rigid rules. What do you think of those "golden rules" as they're written down?

What's your idea of the future of Python? Since the PEP process, a lot of new feature ideas have been put forward, and a lot of people feel uncomfortable with quick change to a good language (Python 2.1 is again excellent though, congrats). Do you think or hope Python will be finished one day? If not, isn't the alternative an endless string of added features? "Python 3000" was an idea of a sort of ideal Python that would be worked on, but as I understand Python will now evolve more gradually.

Re:What is *your* idea of Python and its future?

[sam_penrose]

Tim Peter's The Zen of Python, reads:

Beautiful is better than ugly.
Explicit is better than implicit.
Simple is better than complex.
Complex is better than complicated.
Flat is better than nested.
Sparse is better than dense.
Readability counts.
Special cases aren't special enough to break the rules.
Although practicality beats purity.
Errors should never pass silently.
Unless explicitly silenced.
In the face of ambiguity, refuse the temptation to guess.
There should be one-- and preferably only one --obvious way to do it.
Although that way may not be obvious at first unless you're Dutch.
Now is better than never.
Although never is often better than *right* now.
If the implementation is hard to explain, it's a bad idea.
If the implementation is easy to explain, it may be a good idea.
Namespaces are one honking great idea -- let's do more of those!

What is bad about python ?

[gsf]

Every language has good and bad points. The python documentation and website contains a lot of advocacy articles, which point to all the goot things (TM) in Python, but no mention of the bad points.

What are the bad points in Python ?
What kind (or size) of project should not be written in Python ?
When should one use a different language ?

Thanks.

Indentation?

[fm6]

Every other programming language I know uses some kind of visible token to indicate code blocks -- curly brackets, begin/end, whatever. Good programmers indent nested blocks, but that's just to make the code easier to read. The parser doesn't care.

In Python, indentation is the token. What's the rationale for this? Do you get a lot of flack from people who prefer the old-fashioned way?

Oh yeah, and since the Vim % command (jump to matching bracket) doesn't work with Python code, do you know of a macro to replace it?

__

Re:Remapping % in Vim

[fm6]

Brilliant! Use map to call a macro! Never would have occurred to me!

Now all I need is a macro to actually do the function I described! That's the easy part, of course!

__

Follow-up Questions

[FortKnox]

Follow-up questions are:
What's your favorite Monty Python Quote and Movie?

python versus perl

[sv0f]

(1) who would win in a fistfight, you or larry wall?
(2) who speaks more languages, you or (that supposed linguist) larry wall?
(3) if you could eliminate one planet from the solar system (besides the earth), which one would it be?
(4) how do you feel about the euro?

Python

[Floyd Tante]

What Is Python? Understanding Them : Pythons are relatively primitive snakes belonging to the subfamily Pythoninae within the family Boidae. Boidae, in turn, is one of 11 families in suborder Serpentes, The Snakes. Within the subfamily of pythons, arboreal pythons with heat-sensing pits along their lips (green tree pythons) are grouped seperately from terrestrial pythons that have heavy bodies and short tails
(blood pythons). Each different type of snake eventually ends up with two names, one for the genus and one for the species. When isolated population exits that are still identifiable as the same type of snake, a third name, the trinomial, is added.
The term primitive indicates that these snakes were some of the first snakes to evolve. Primitive snakes display features that link them to lizards. These features include a rudimentary pelvic girdle in the form
of cloacal spurs, and lungs of equal sizes . Advanced snakes, like the rat snakes and whip snakes, have only one functional lung and no cloacal spurs.
Pythons are divided into about 26 species, depending on which authority you accept. Pythons range in size from very big (Burmese and Reticulated pythons with the potential of over 20 feet and over 200
pounds) to small (Children's pythons do not get much bigger than 24 inches '61cm' in length) . No matter what the size , they are all constrictors . Some burrow-hunting species have developed novel ways of
using thei coils to catch prey within the confines of a burrow but they are still constrictors nonetheless . Most pythons are nocturnal hunters and some species have heat sensory pits along the edges of their lips
to aid in finding warm-blooded prey .

Pythons Versus Boas : Many people don't know the main difference between boas and pythons . Boas are termed ovoviviparous , this means their eggs inside the females are surrounded by a membrane
instead of a hard shell like pythons . So when the boa babies born , babies break through the membrane to crawl away . Pythons are oviparous , this means the eggs are surrounded by a thin , parchmentlike
shell . Female pythons will coil around their eggs and stay with them during the incubation period .

Life Span : Over 20 Years But Much More In Captivity .

Their Orginal Habitat : Africa , Asia and Australia , North America (A Little Amount) . All python snakes are tropical animals . They won't live under the temperature 22C (77F) . Under this fact the areas
that they live must be near the deserts or tropical places like amazon . But mainly you can find them Africa , Asia and Australia , North America (A Little Amount) .

Pythons As Pets : Pythons can be good pets if you care them enough .
-- Floyd

Re:Python

[BlowCat]

Life Span : Over 20 Years But Much More In Captivity

Wow, 20 years - it's pretty long for a programming language! I just hope that Guido will always keep it in captivity.

If you were stuck on a desert island...

[wadetemp]

... what book would you bring, what CD would you bring, and what language OTHER than Python would you be using (assuming that your computer suvives the sand and wet.)

Question about the personal side

[Bob Abooey]

How closely does the primary Python development team interact with the other language binding efforts (mainly Jython)? Anyone who's hung out in Slashdot seems to have a rabid attachment towards their native tounge, so to speak, and I've found it refreshing that the Python community "plays nice". Is there a lot of cross-pollenation(sic) between the groups?


Yours,
Bob

efficient compilation and standardization

[janpod66]

What are the plans for the compilation of Python code to efficient executables? Python's object system is very dynamic, allowing anybody to add instance variables and methods to any object at any time--how are you planning on dealing with that during compilation? Performance-wise, how do you expect Python will compare to compiled CommonLisp or Smalltalk, which evolved along similar lines 20 years ago? And will there be a language standard, or will Python continue to be defined by what the C implementation does?