LWCE Bits and Pieces

Well, we've gotten a massive number of submissions with the haps at LWCE. I've distilled some of the good ones below: Chanc_Grokon wrote to us with the press release from Ximian about the monthly charges for Red Carpet, their installer. He also raises the "Why not just use apt-get?" point. A number of people wrote pointing out LinuxLookup.com's Day 1 coverage and Day 2 coverage. Of particular interest to Daeslin was Larry Lessig's attack on overly strong intellectual property laws. A number of people, Krismon included, have voiced some disappointment at the excitement of the show - not being there, I make no judgments. Sun has unveiled more details about StarOffice 6. Compaq's CTO also made comments about Linux improving in the enterprise. jrbw sent in Linus' thoughts (dismissive) of .Net/Hailstorm. And KDE has won the "Best Open Source Project" award. Newsforge has also got a round-up and coverage piece. More news as it happens.

Comments

I supppose

[iomud]

Kongratulations are in order...

Re:Guano Heralded as Prozac Substitute

[Anonymous Coward]

Is this story releated to the Guano Linux operating system?

This big fat guy who smelled like bat shit told me to say Guano Linux for great justice.

Clarify the charges

[battery841]

"Chanc_Grokon wrote to us with the press release from Ximian about the monthly charges for Red Carpet, their installer. He also raises the "Why not just use apt-get?" point."

Ximian's charges for Red Carpet aren't mandatory. They give users who are willing to pay for it much better bandwidth. Don't want to pay? That's cool. You don't need to. Just use the free service, and you'll be fine!

RedCarpet Partner Program

[krokodil]

> For software vendors, Ximian introduced the Red
> Carpet Partner Program, which allows software
> vendors to create and manage channels to
> distribute their Linux or UNIX software.

This program is on their site for a while.
I was interested in distributing my application
via it and filled the the application form few months ago and nobody ever responded to me. Nowbody even confirmed submission.

ok

[Anonymous Coward]

Someone needs to tell Aphex Twin that just becuase a noise looks like orange church dust when you're on acid does not mean it's actually music.

Who again?

[cdrudge]

Linux creator Linux Torvalds told ....

Boy. All those other news outlets have egg on their face now. All this time they have been saying that some guy named Linus created Linux. I guess we could just him how he pronounces his name to get the one true pronouncation.

Re:Who again?

[Anonymous Coward]

It looks like it was just a typo.

Scroll down the story a little further and you'll see the correct spelling.

Lessig on Copyright & Ximian's announcement

[hillct]

First, Ximian: The announcement says tose who subscribe will have "5-% faster downloads durring peak hours". This suggests that they will still ovver the service for free, with some diminished capacity, but the announcement doesn't really say.Can anyone confirm or clarify this?

Regarding Lessig's comments oc Copyright: I'd like to point out that James Madison was on Lessig's side regarding Copyright.

--CTH

StarOffice for Mac OS X?

[JHromadka]

Any chance of Sun porting Star Office to Mac OS X? The platform is fairly receptive to ditching MS Office for another solution (i.e. AppleWorks). Many people on OS X are using AW because MS Office hasn't been ported yet.

Re:StarOffice for Mac OS X?

[simong]

There's supposed to be a version of SO6 for MacOS Classic. OS X will, of course, be far easier to do.

Re:StarOffice for Mac OS X?

[tb3]

There won't be a StarOffice, per se, but there is an OpenOffice port in the works, info at openoffice.org.

Unfortunately, the current port is very primitive (i.e. no printer support yet) and it doesn't appear that any work has been done since April. I wouldn't hold my breath.

Why call it a "tax"?

[Placido]

"Let's assume Microsoft could tax everything on the Internet," Torvalds said "You think the U.S. government would give up monopoly status as taxation man? The government would step in and say, 'No, no, that's what we do.'"

a) Why would Microsoft call it a tax? Just because it's called a tax doesn't mean that what MS is doing is the same as what the government does. What happens if microsoft calls it a "Transaction Fee"? Will the banks step in?

b) If you don't want to use .NET then don't use it. It's not as if it's mandatory or a necessity?

Now I wait for the hordes of /. MS bashers to attack.

(Score:-1, Linus Questioner)

Re:Why call it a "tax"?

[simong]

The FUD point is very clear here: what if, with a little bit of manipulation, it becomes difficult not to use Hailstorm/Passport/.NET for secure or sensitive transactions? What if Microsoft could secure trust in enough governments and major financial organisations to make a majority of Internet transactions use it? Of the current MS innovations I think it is the most dangerous, because it has the potential to concentrate a lot of responsibility in one private organisation. It really shouldn't be scorned just yet.

Re:Why call it a "tax"?

[Anonymous Coward]

a) Microsoft already "taxes" the rest of the world through its licenses, Linus (or is that Linux? hehe) didn't think that one through.

b) Within a year it will be mandatory for HoTMaiL, msn, messenger, etc. I expect they will sign deals with amazon and the other big players for 1-click passport authenticated transactions. So, its not mandatory but its going to be everywhere. Then again, a computer isnt really "mandatory or a necessity", we got along for millions of years without them

Re:Why call it a "tax"?

[jbrw]

(Bah. If /. is going to mangle my submission, at least spell my name right).

I think Linus is way off the mark by not being concerned by .NET and Hailstorm. In this thing I wrote I show some recent examples of Microsoft moving the goal posts when things didn't go their way.

This earlier thing is along similar lines. It talks about concerns raised by Bruce Perens that Microsoft is currently building of warchest of software patents to start hassling open source projects once the heat has cooled down from the Justice Department.

Just thinking about it now, has Microsoft ever passed on an opportunity to screw money out of people? (Having said that, good for them. They are a business after all. Doesn't mean we as users of technology have to support them in that though).

...j

Re:Why call it a "tax"?

[Rob Mac K]

Of the current MS innovations I think it is the most dangerous, because it has the potential to concentrate a lot of responsibility in one private organisation.

And this isn't just *any* "private organization", either. Let's not lose sight of who we're talking about here.

The big question with .Net is how widely it is adopted by online merchants. Currently, Visa/MasterCard/Discover/AmEx take a few percent of each transaction as a fee, which is how they make their money (well, that and charging huge interest rates and outrageous late fees, but I digress...). If I were Billy and his minions, I'd undercut the CC companies (ever wonder why AmEx is "less accepted" than Visa/MC? They charge a higher percentage of each sale, which is paid by the merchant.), and give the merchant an even *better* deal if they agreed to *only* accept transactions using Passport.

MS can afford it as a loss leader - they're rich. It's the same old story out of Redmond - essentially give away a product to develop a huge market penetration, then once you've eliminated the competition, raise prices out the ying-yang.

Re:Why call it a "tax"?

[zulux]

A lot of people don't think of it this way, but .NET is an 'Embrase(sic) and Extend' on the OS level. If Microsoft has it's way, it won't matter what OS your desktop runs, .NET will be the platform. Just as now, MS Windows dosen't care what video card you use. .NET is an attempt to make what OS you use irelevent, and of course .NET and Microsoft .NET services are going to cost money.

Re:Why call it a "tax"?

[Anonymous Coward]

I'd perhaps make the stronger point that Torvalds is talking out of his arse. He seems to be utterly confused about the dual usage of the word tax. His comments are on an intellectual level with some of Al Gore's most famous cock-ups. The "Microsoft Tax" has nothing to do with actual government taxation. What an idiot.

Re:Why call it a "tax"?

[jbrw]

exactly. it'll be free initially to get people on board. sooner or later MS will want to make money back on it, to at least cover the no doubt inconsiderable cost of runner a service on this (perceived) scale.

anyone know what AOLs impression of Hailstorm is? they really can't be happy about it...

Re:Why call it a "tax"?

[Trejus]

give the merchant an even *better* deal if they agreed to *only* accept transactions using Passport this is exactly what amEx tried to do. That is the reason a few years ago places would only accept AmEx. Merchants got a better rate from amex if they signed an exclusive deal. However, in the end, these merchants ended up losing money because most people got fed up with AmEx's annual fees and dumped the card in favor of visa. Now to choose between an establishment that accepts your credit card and one that doesn't doesn't take a lot of thought. Your going to go the place that lets you pay the way you want to pay. It's your money and they should be grateful you're giving it to them at all. Therefore, these merchants started losing potential sales. Case in point. for 18 years i went to this one chicago area indian restaurant. for 18 years, all they accepted was American Express and Diners Club. I moved, and when i came back for a visit, lo and behold, there was a visa sign in window. What i said above is what the owner told me happened.

Fat smelly guy says Guano Linux for Freedom!

[Anonymous Coward]

I use Guano Linux.

MS File Formats

[SEWilco]

One of the comments on the StarOffice article mentions that it doesn't import correctly all MS Office files.

The problem actually is that MS Office doesn't export its files correctly.

(Note to corporate document archivers: History suggests that your desktop MS machines won't be able to read your corporate MS Word documents within a few years. "Steve, can you retype these articles of incorporation?")

this is just the attitude I expected

[Anonymous Coward]

>Chanc_Grokon wrote to us with the press release >from Ximian about the monthly charges for Red >Carpet, their installer. He also raises the "Why >not just use apt-get?" point.

bunch of fucken leeches, completely ignore the benefits of subscribing to a software package and company and describe how you can get it for _FREE_.. as always this kind of attitude will destroy Linux because there is no viable or feasible way to make money from a bunch of leeches, err, i mean Linux users.

I for one will be subscribing to ximian gnome to support their efforts and all the great software they write. I wont be locked in to some sort of twisted masochistic licencing agreement like I might be with Microsoft. Why ? Because even after the subscription runs out, if it does, I still have my software, that software still functions, I have the source for that software and most importantly it wont stop working after 30 days of "Trial use."

So all you Linux users out there taking a free ride: Its free today, it will be free tomorrow, but dont expect great software like ximian has produced if your not willing put up the bucks.

For christs sake, its only two packs of cigarettes a month, or two fucken happy meals at mcdonalds, or 5 quarts of oil.. Get a grip and stop complaining.

Re:this is just the attitude I expected

[Anonymous Coward]

I forgot to mention that for me that would be 4 packs of cigarettes or three fucken happy meals but only a little more than a two gallons of gas because among other things you sure get a lot less bang for the buck, err the mark over here than anywhere else.

Re:this is just the attitude I expected

[Anonymous Coward]

Cry me a river. Wanna know how Ximian is making their $$$? BY LEECHING OFF THE FUCKING LINUX COMMUNITY. Same way Red Hat has been for years. They are trying to cash in on some sort of "movement" which is barely alive. Remember the press release for Mono? That wasn't a "We have product! Come purchase!" That was "we are starting a produc..er Open Source(TM) project come help code!" Then they turn around and sell it for $50 a pop (in which case Red Hat is even selling Linux + few addons for megabucks.. I'm talking $1000's).

Fuck purchasing ethically. You _don't_ do that. Not in the US anyhow. If Ximian, Loki (VA Linux?) can't hold their own in the market they SHOULD die. That is how the free market works. The whole reason the dot-com crash happened was because fools went into business not knowing (or even caring) a damn about business. "Lets rape the VC's and IPO ASAP." Ximian has their VC millions. The time will come when the VC's demand their investment to grow (and if VCs have some sort of position within the company they could even take it over.. e.g. Jim Clark & SGI).

Ethics and corporate business do _not_ mix. There _are_ agendas which you do not see. Just because the land is free for all today does not mean it will be tomorrow. Greed has already been entered into Ximian's equation (venture capital). Just wait till they IPO and have to listen to outside stock holders.

Re:this is just the attitude I expected

[Anonymous Coward]

>If Ximian, Loki (VA Linux?) can't hold their own in the market they SHOULD die.

You asshole , WE ARE THE MARKET. But because everybody on this damned linux bandwagon wants everything for free, you can pretty much guarantee Loki and Ximian death, sooner than later.

>Wanna know how Ximian is making their $$$? BY LEECHING OFF THE FUCKING LINUX COMMUNITY.
There was no red-carpet packaging system till ximian arrived. Yes, there was up2date, apt-get, rpmfind, etc.. But Ximian is selling red-carpet. Its a great piece of software that a bunch of leeching linux users will continue to use without paying a dime. Because, They just dont care.

Leeching off the linux community? I guess the community will just leech right back, right ? Wow, I see this is going to be fun trying to break into the market with jerks like you around.

>That wasn't a "We have product! Come purchase!" That was "we are starting a produc..er Open Source(TM) project come help code!"
You are distorting all the fact, they never were asking anything to buy anything. Your filthy lies are making me sick. And whats your problem with them asking come help code ? It benefits the whole community if a .NET alternative is built, not just ximian's pockets.

>Then they turn around and sell it for $50 a pop

or you can download the source from a slow bandwidth ftp server.. Thats a good thing, especially when people like you dont want to support linux in any way shape or form. Your the one leeching now asshole.

>(in which case Red Hat is even selling Linux + few addons for megabucks.. I'm talking $1000's).

Yep. This is one of the best things redhat is offering for large business/enterprises. From $50 to a few grand you get varying levels of technical support and updates. Nothing wrong with that.

>That is how the free market works.

Gee, why dont you just fucking kick it while its down then.

>The time will come when the VC's demand their investment to grow

And it wont grow till people like you stop leeching.. How else do you suggest it grows.. give me some feedback... You are against Redhat and Ximian for repackaging and selling support.. So do you have any USEFUL suggestions ?

Bottom line is, if Linux users dont stop leeching and learning to speak with the chequebooks, then you can pretty much kiss all of this goodness, Goodbye. No thanks to leeches like you because I actually want to see Ximian and RedHat succeed, Fucken Faggot.

Re:this is just the attitude I expected

[Anonymous Coward]

You asshole , WE ARE THE MARKET

No, I am not. Ximian's market would be the same market Microsoft is in. The desktop market. I am not that end-user Joe who barely knows what a mouse is.

There was no red-carpet packaging system till ximian arrived. Yes, there was up2date, apt-get, rpmfind, etc.. But Ximian is selling red-carpet. Its a great piece of software that a bunch of leeching linux users will continue to use without paying a dime. Because, They just dont care.

And you know what? I don't care. If it is more economical to use it for free I (and a thousand others) will do so. Why should we babysit a corporation that is in business primarily for money (you really think those VC's just dropped a big wad of cash into their laps without expecting to get paid)?

You are distorting all the fact, they never were asking anything to buy anything. Your filthy lies are making me sick.

No, I think I am pretty much on target. The truth is a bitch, eh?

And whats your problem with them asking come help code ?

Since when do corporations ask for handouts and people abide? I think you are out of touch with reality.

It benefits the whole community if a .NET alternative is built

What community? I will never be part of any community that enjoys using a .NET-like system. I don't really give a damn if there is source or not. I'm not part of that market.

or you can download the source from a slow bandwidth ftp server.. Thats a good thing, especially when people like you dont want to support linux in any way shape or form. Your the one leeching now asshole.

Ha. Tell that to the people who truely support Linux by writing the code. Do you think they feel they owe something to Red Hat so they can download their own code? By the way, it is "you're" and you can stop with the asshole bit already. It is getting old.

Yep. This is one of the best things redhat is offering for large business/enterprises. From $50 to a few grand you get varying levels of technical support and updates. Nothing wrong with that.

Nothing wrong with it, except for the fact that you want people to purchase free software based on ethics and Red Hat has no (or false) ethics by selling software which was produced by other's labor. Do not look at Red Hat and Ximian as being altruistic. They are primarily incorporated because they care about money first and foremost. They have to. They have agreements with the venture capitalists. They have agreements with the stock holders to turn a profit. They must strive for money.

Gee, why dont you just fucking kick it while its down then.

You must mean "it's." And it's not "down." I have no clue why you believe it is "down."

And it wont grow till people like you stop leeching.

HAHA. Are you saying I should pay money to them so I can get other people's work which is free so I can use it? Please take up Economics 101. It will help you.

You are against Redhat and Ximian for repackaging and selling support.. So do you have any USEFUL suggestions ?

The lesson software developers have already learned is: free software does not make money. I believe JWZ made a good comment once, "Linux is only free if your time has no value."

Bottom line is, if Linux users dont stop leeching and learning to speak with the chequebooks

Ironic that you mention "bottom line" and "leeching" in the same sentence. A large percentage of Linux users are pirates (hence the call to arms against RIAA). I, myself, am not "leeching" off Red Hat or Ximian. I don't use their shit products. I tried Red Hat but was disgusted and threw it away.

you can pretty much kiss all of this goodness, Goodbye

Haha! Thankfully, Ximian and Red Hat are doing a great job of selling goodness down the river. It seems I don't have to help out by buying "their" software.

Fucken Faggot

No, no, no! It is "fucking faggot." As in, kiss my ass you fucking faggot. You see how that works? You fucking faggot! I can even put emphasis into the phrase. You fucking faggot! Enough with the grammar lesson. You need to control your racial thoughts. Freedom and racism don't mix either.

Re:this is just the attitude I expected

[Anonymous Coward]

>ironic that you mention "bottom line" and "leeching" in the same sentence. A large percentage of Linux users are pirates

Count yourself in that group.

>No, I think I am pretty much on target. The truth is a bitch, eh?
Show me the facts then.. You have none regarding this. Just a simple url pointing out my mistake would suffice. Thanks.

>Since when do corporations ask for handouts and people abide? I think you are out of touch with reality.

You seem to be missing the point of the argument. Without the support of the linux community in the form of $$$, then you can expect Ximian, Loki (almost dead), Redhat, etc to die, and die very quickly. These are not handouts, these are investments in the future viability and stability of Linux as a feasible platform. Money is not the answer to everything but in this case it is.

Why should that concern you ? Well for starters Ximian and RedHat hire full time programmers to write software that you will undoubtably be using at some point or another. Those same people writing software are finding bugs in third party packages and suggesting/fixing them. The whole linux community builds on this. I'm not discounting the thousands that slave away at home on their spare time. Two or three companies will never match their size.

EXT3 will be stable and usable in production systems in a short time, thanks to the efforts of RedHat. You will most likely end up using this in a future distro, if not, thousands of others will, most of them like leechers like you, wont spot these guys a 5, because they arrogantly think they deserve it. You dont deserve fucking thing anymore, neither do I. Linux users have been taking handouts for years, yourself included.

Loki is for all intents and purposes dead and will never be revived, dont expect any new games from them. I guess it doesn't bother you though.

>What community? I will never be part of any community that enjoys using a .NET-like system. I don't really give a damn if there is source or not. I'm not part of that market.
You will eventually in some way or another. I hope it bites you where it hurts.
>And you know what? I don't care.

Fine, You dont care, I hope you enjoy using MS products. Go buy a new version of the new Windows XP or PX or whatever. That $200 handout MS is asking for isn't TOO much.. When you compare it to the $50 pricetag of RedHat or Lokigame, its nothing. Dont despair when your OS subscription runs out, thats only another $80. You want tech support.. you can have it for $150/hr .. Microsoft will be happy to debit your VISA. Just consider those payments as necessary handouts to a large multinational corporation, minus the freedom and diginity you would have gotten with free/opensource software.

Re:this is just the attitude I expected

[Anonymous Coward]

Count yourself in that group.

I don't pirate. I use free software. Get a clue.

Show me the facts then.. You have none regarding this. Just a simple url pointing out my mistake would suffice. Thanks.

What do you want me to show you? ximian.com ? The fact that they are selling software made from other's labor? The fact that they have VC funding and they must somehow turn a profit?

You seem to be missing the point of the argument. Without the support of the linux community in the form of $$$, then you can expect Ximian, Loki (almost dead), Redhat, etc to die, and die very quickly.

And the point you have to make is.. ? I don't give a flying fuck if they die. Let 'em die. This is capitalism man. If they are incapable of selling a product then they should not be in business. You are missing my point. I don't use any of their products. Why should I spend money on products I don't need just so they can stay in business? Just because they are a Linux company? Yeah, right.

These are not handouts, these are investments in the future viability and stability of Linux as a feasible platform.

That is bullshit. Linux can never die. Linux can only remain the same or grow. Who cares about future viability and stability? I have all I need in Linux right now. It isn't going anywhere.

Money is not the answer to everything but in this case it is.

It is not the Linux users' problem if Ximian, etc. run out of cash. If they cannot successfully market, produce, and sell a product a competitor will wipe the floor with their asses.

Well for starters Ximian and RedHat hire full time programmers to write software that you will undoubtably be using at some point or another.

Like hell I will. Are you saying Ximian and Red Hat are going to force me to use their software in the future? There is a little thing called "choice." I do not want Linux to be this #1 bullshit simply because I like choice. I don't want another monopoly. We have Microsoft for that.

Linux users have been taking handouts for years, yourself included.

Aww. The poor software developers finally realize there is no money to be made with free software.

Loki is for all intents and purposes dead and will never be revived, dont expect any new games from them. I guess it doesn't bother you though.

Why should I? They bring games late to the market and at a price much higher than the Windows version at the time. I have no emotional attachment to Loki. If they die, they die. They were selling goddamn proprietary software. I'm surprised RMS/FSF didn't go apeshit.

Fine, You dont care, I hope you enjoy using MS products.

I think I said I will not be using a .NET-like system. Not Microsoft's, not Ximian's. Linux provides me the choice of opting out of the monopoly game. I'm not going to join Ximian's game of monopoly.

When you compare it to the $50 pricetag of RedHat or Lokigame

Yes, well Loki games are overpriced compared to the Windows' version when they are released. You will spend probably $20-30 extra than the Windows' version.

You want tech support..

Hardly. Which is why I don't buy Red Hat. I don't need support.

minus the freedom and diginity you would have gotten with free/opensource software.

What the hell crack are you on? I'm using Linux and the freedom I get with GNU software. I don't see why you think I will be using Windows in the future if I don't support Linux companies financially. Linux will still be here. Unless Microsoft takes over the world completely. In which case, helping any Linux company would be useless anyhow. Unless those Linux companies are striving for taking over the world also.

Recognition

[bribecka]

The article says that people get involved in open source with recognition as one of the primary motives. It even has a quote from a panelist: Who knows who wrote the paper clip in [Microsoft] Word? But everyone knows Linus,this is part of why you do open source.

This is a terrible analogy, and IMHO it is even worse for the point of open source. First off, comparing the creator of linux to the creator of the Word paper clip is a bit off. The significance of the development of a free OS and an animated piece of metal are totally different. Besides Linus, there are 1000s of people who do open source that don't get nor seek any recognition. For example, who is the guy who wrote the Gnome Calculator? Can you name the members of the Mozilla team?

More importantly though, this panelist (Dirk Hohndel, former CTO of SuSE) makes a very disconcerting assertion that if you get into open source, you are going to get tons of recognition from the endeavor. This is certainly not that case. I think that most of the benefits of open source come from collaboration between diverse groups, and the vast amounts of knowledge that can be gained just by *looking* at someone elses code. The idea that open source will get you a lot of recognition is ludicrous. True, people may say "X application is great!", but they will probably not know the person behind it or ever send a thank-you note. A lot of people say the same about commercial software.

Just a rant, but open source should never be about recognition--if it becomes about that, the movement will fade rather fast.

Re:Recognition

[gol64738]

the panelist you are referring to is Jeremy Allison, from the SAMBA project.

Precedent

[Tim Macinta]

From the CNN article:

"Let's assume Microsoft could tax everything on the Internet," Torvalds said "You think the U.S. government would give up monopoly status as taxation man? The government would step in and say, 'No, no, that's what we do.'"

I hate to have to disagree with Linus, but I'm not so sure the government would step in. There is already an oligopoly that essentially taxes all transactions on the internet - the credit card companies. Practically all online transactions are made with credit cards and for each transaction made the credit card company collects a small percentage of the sale from the merchant. Why would the government treat Microsoft any differently? Well ok, they might if Microsoft uses its desktop monopoly to gain a network information clearinghouse monopoly (I say if because although Microsoft is certain to try this, it is not certain to succeed). My point is, I don't think the government would have a problem with a single company taxing all internet transactions at the information clearinghouse level as there already companies doing it at lower levels, with the caveat that this only applies to the point that the company seeking to do this works within the law (including anti-trust laws).

Re:Precedent

[Anonymous Coward]

Linux is free but it also fun. Linux is fun to use. I like Linux a lot.

Re:Precedent

[bribecka]

I hate to have to disagree with Linus, but I'm not so sure the government would step in.

A think a problem arises when you start asking someone who is mainly a software developer about government and tax codes. These types of panels should probably just stick to what the panelists are well-versed in, instead of always forcing the conversation into a sprawling discussion of the future of the universe.

Re:Precedent

[Arandir]

You are required to pay a tax levied by the government. Even so-called "use fees" may only be collected by one party, namely the government.

The use of credit card companies are entirely voluntary. Obviously, you can't send cash over the internet, so an information-based payment method is required. Credit and debit cards are the most convenient form of these, which is why they are so common. So what if MegaSitePlus doesn't accept paypal? I've been to brick-and-mortor stores where they didn't accept Visa, and others where they didn't accept Amex. I've been to still others where they wouldn't accept credit cards at all.

Fast, free software updates!

[Anonymous Coward]

I've been running Windows XP for the last couple of weeks. It's amazingly fast and stable. The interface is clean and intuitive. Windows Update should be the standard by which all other installers be measured; super-fast bandwith with equal availability for all, no dependency issues....Truly an amazing Desktop OS, maybe the best yet.

Linux is growing

[Anonymous Coward]

Linux keeps growing, not only in number of users but in the support from proven companies like IBM and HP. This is very exciting for Linux. LWCE is proof.

Red Carpet vs. apt-get

[SyntheticTruth]

I think it's easy for us geeks to forget why such things as Red Carpet are needed.

I will always argue that apt-get has to be one of the best linux app installers, but a huge part of apt-get is command-line oriented. Red Carpet, although using rpm's, is graphical and is much easier for a gui-oriented linux user to handle. I've used Red Carpet and I like what I see so far, it goes a long way of making linux newbie-friendly. (...and all you CLI die-hards, please just hush. ;)

As long as they price it right, I think a service like Red Carpet would be worth the money, just for ease of use, point-n-click, user-friendliness of installing new software and updates -- something that will bring *nix further along, because right now, I see two things holding us back: a really kick-ass office suite (coming along nicely, really) and ease-of-use software installation.

I, for one, am willing to pay money for *good* software and services...

Re:Red Carpet vs. apt-get

[Anonymous Coward]

"I will always argue that apt-get has to be one of the best linux app installers, but a huge part of apt-get is command-line oriented."

Only if one isn't using KPackage ;-).

"Why not just use apt-get?"

[AJSchu]

Hard as this may be to believe, not everyone uses Debian. If Linux is ever going to make inroads against MS, it's got to have pretty graphical frontends. Sure, apt-get is nice for the hardcore Linux fans, but Joe Average experimenting with Linux doesn't want to fool with the command line; he wants his point and click.

AJS

Re:"Why not just use apt-get?"

[Anonymous Coward]

I recently came across some instructions on how to compile software under Debian. It is a f*cking joke. The instructions said to get something called "dpkg" and some other thing. And then get the source code file blah.tar.gz, then get something called blah.dsc then get some patches. Then you had to get something called "fakeroot". Now mind you, this is just the preliminary steps. Then there was more long complicated steps to follow in order to just build the software. It is a f*cking nightmare. And of course all of this rigmarole is completely gratuitously incompatible with all other versions of Linux. Debian, what a f*cking nightmare.

Re:"Why not just use apt-get?"

[edwazere]

Have you used Debian lately?

In KDE 2.2 there is something called package manager, (or similar) it's as pointy and clicky as you could ever want.

There is also always Gnome-apt if you are a Gnome person.

Re:"Why not just use apt-get?"

[garcia]

yes yes, we all know that Joe Blow cannot do anything but point and click. You fail to remember (apparently) that Linux is NOT for Joe Blow. Someday someone will write a frontend for it (or an entire re-write) but for right now if Joe Blow can't read the directions and figure out apt-get (which takes less than 5 mins) than tough cookies for him.

Re:"Why not just use apt-get?"

[GauteL]

And it simply does not provide everything that Red-Carpet does.
Very nice things about Red Carpet:
1. Easy access to different channels.
2. Very nice and professional updating.
3. Automatic cryptographic validation.
4. No hunting for usable mirrors.

apt-get is not the beginning or end of everything. It is a very nice tool, but for Joe Average, Red Carpet is quite simply amazing, and it'll get even better with more 3rd-party channels, and easy access to commercial applications.
Btw. Red Carpet is also available for Debian.

The rule is: don't use it if you don't need it or want it.

Re:"Why not just use apt-get?"

[David Greene]

apt-get --compile source <pkgname>

No too difficult, really. :)

Re:"Why not just use apt-get?"

[DnA Works]

Unfortunately, my friend, that's the sort of attitude that does and will in the future cause Linux to not be considered as a serious desktop contender. Joe Blow may be the purchasing manager and if he doesn't like it, he doesn't "buy" it (i.e., install it). Until we get over the "if they can't do it my way, they're stupid/useless/whatever", we won't see Linux in the big time.

Re:"Why not just use apt-get?"

[Anonymous Coward]

Until we get over the "if they can't do it my way, they're stupid/useless/whatever"

"we" who? Not I. Linux is not the Holy Grail. It is a tool. It is UNIX. It is a bitch to use, but it gets the job done. It is UNIX. It has a GUI to make it fluffy feeling. Underneath it is a bitch to use. It is UNIX.

I'm sorry someone may actually have to learn something. It is too bad we can't plug-in Linux to people's brains and brainwash them how to use it. It is not elitist to say people who want easy -to-use computers are ignorant. If they wish to be ignorant in the ways of computer use.. well they have Microsoft. Or, perhaps you could STFU and code this Holy Grail you seem to want.

Re:"Why not just use apt-get?"

[DnA Works]

Ah, Mr. AC, you choose to misinterpret and deliberately obfuscate to make your own *little* point. Even if Linux were as easy to use as Macs, users would "actually have to learn something". Show me a system or interface with *no* learning curve and I'll applaud - there ain't no such beast (or at least, none that can accomplish non-trivial tasks).

On the other hand, why should (for example) an accountant who has to spend all her free time learning the new tax laws spend even more time learning a new software retrieval system. That's not the best use of her time, wouldn't you agree? I don't mind doing it but why should we (and by "we", I mean the community) *force* her to use that system?

Do you think that if she is in charge of installing or purchasing that she will choose such a difficult system to use? No, she won't. That's why (and I'll use small words so that you understand) Linux needs to become more user-friendly to get more users.

I don't want to "code the Holy Grail", I just want to code systems that *both* users and non-users can use. Do you want to guess why AOL (an inferior service, in my mind) is so popular? It's easy to use. Not good, not the best, just easy. With Linux, we have the ability to make the best (or at least a damn good) OS be the popular choice - but not until "we" consider the users, Linux won't be #1.

Re:"Why not just use apt-get?"

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't want to "code the Holy Grail", I just want to code systems that *both* users and non-users can use.

I'd like to see a "non-user" user. That would be interesting.

Do you want to guess why AOL (an inferior service, in my mind) is so popular?

They stuff mailboxes full of CD-ROMS with their shit on them?

With Linux, we have the ability to make the best (or at least a damn good) OS be the popular choice - but not until "we" consider the users, Linux won't be #1.

"we" WHO? I don't want Linux to be "#1." I am not part of some group of Linux users wishing for Globa..er Universal Domination. Fuck that. Shutup and code already. You want it easy to use? Make it easy to use. I don't care if mom and pop can't use it. They have Windows. They don't need the power of *IX because with that power comes responsibility and a steep learning curve. Linux will never be as simple to use as Windows. The day that happens is the day Linux is no longer a *IX flavor, and also the day I leave (which, of course, you will say "good riddance" because, as a computer enthusiast, I don't matter to you).

Re:"Why not just use apt-get?"

[DnA Works]

I stand abased. I meant technical and non-technical users. Mea culpa :)

Re:"Why not just use apt-get?"

[pa-guy]

You fail to remember (apparently) that Linux is NOT for Joe Blow It's idiots like this Garcia asshole that are guilty of propagating the elitist attitudes that are rampant in this community.And for this drivel to be scored at 2 is even more idiotic......

...why not?

[Vlastyn]

"why not just use apt-get?" seems to be one of the reasons that Linux companies are doomed to failure. Not that there's anything wrong with it, or that I'm suggesting it be changed, but there is always going to be (either before or after) some free alternative to what a commercial company can produce.

With this I suppose you have to look at the other benefits... most importantly, I guess, is someone to blame if things go wrong. Then again, services like 'support' with companies that deal with Free/open-source software never seem worth the money to Linux users.

-vl

Re:...why not?

[Jagasian]

Look, if you think that typing "apt-get install " is too difficult, when apt-get finds the app's package and resolves all dependencies automatically... then use one of the GUI frontends for apt-get. People that talk about apt-get being anything less than user-friendly obviously haven't used the tool. Now, if typing scares you, use a GUI frontend for the best package management tool out there.

And for those who haven't used apt-get before, let me fill you in on some key points:

• The software and the service are completely free.
• Installing software is as easy as knowing the debian package name of the application you want to install, which is usually the name of the application. For example, to install netscape you would type: "apt-get install netscape". apt-get then searches for a mirror that serves the package and downloads it.
• apt-get figures out all of the complex dependencies for you, automatically. This allows users to think on the application level, in that they decide what tools they want to use and not the underlying libraries used by those tools.

I really don't see how anything can be more user-friendly than apt-get.

Re:windows xp is the shit.

[stevenbee]

I've been running Windows XP for the last couple of weeks. It's amazingly fast and stable. The interface is clean and intuitive. Can't wait to see what developers do with it. The drivers and gaming support are awesome. Truly an amazing OS, maybe the best yet.

KDE lessons

[Anonymous Coward]

Congrats to KDE on the award.

I think its time to analyze why KDE manages to sustain such a high quality open source product. I dont have much knowledge of the modus-operandi of KDE developers, so I am not sure what contributing factors lead to such success.

Is it:
- A commitment to a good core design, and core API's. ie, solid foundation.
- A willingness to throw away a component that doesnt work to expectations (not matter how big or ingrained the components\ is). eg CORBA for inter process communication.- Perform more testing than other projects ?
- Some unique development process/philosophy ?
- Better desingers?
- Better coders ?

What makes KDE as good as it is ? Perhaps a KDE'r can shed some light that other projects would find helpful.

Re:KDE lessons

[Roblimo]

"What makes KDE as good as it is ? Perhaps a KDE'r can shed some light that other projects would find helpful."

KDE has always respected "Joe Blow" users instead of sneering at us. KDE developers have worked very hard to make things easier for people who are not computer professionals. I have never heard a KDE developer say, "Well, it only takes five minutes to figure out [function], and if you can't, you're too lame to use our software."

Rather, KDE people ask, "How can we make it easier and more intuitive? What suggestions do you have?"

Because of this pleasant attitude, non-coders are more likely to submit bug reports and feature requests to KDE than to projects that have a snobbish attitude toward people who have things to do in their lives besides messing with computers all day.

The funny thing is, some of the "Joe Blow" people others cold off, but KDE encourages and nurtures, go on to learn enough that they can't be sneered at any more by even the apt-gettingest, self-declared l33t hax0r, so KDE gets fresh debug developer blood that can help the next generation of Joe and Joanne Blows figure things out, and the cycle perpetuates itself.

If all Open Source projects had KDE's attitude toward their users, I believe we'd see a lot fewer "start" buttons on computer monitors than we do.

- Robin

Re:KDE lessons

[Xoro]

Great point.

Another question I'd like to add is "Choice of language?"

While I like oop myself, I'm the first to admit that there's very little hard data supporting its claims of greater productivity, maintainability and extensibility. This is mostly because

• Development of large projects is usually closed, and metrics pertaining to it are as closed as the source.
• It is too expensive to try to solve a large problem twice -- once in oo, once in procedural, so comparing can be difficult.
• No one can decide on appropriate metrics

If someone could come up with some good choices for point three, KDE/Gnome could provide all kinds of interesting data for the first two. Of course, one data point doesn't prove anything and there are tons of other variables, but it would be a start.

Now if the projects would just divide themselves by editor, we could get three flamewars for the price of one.

Re:KDE lessons

[Rob Mac K]

I agree. Not only is KDE well-designed and fundamentally stable, but the development team is remarkably receptive to both suggestions and questions. As a result, we have KDE desktops in all the stores (more than 300) of the retail chain I work for, and they Just Work - not to mention save us thousands of dollars per year by not having to pay the Microsoft Tax.

Re:KDE lessons

[dgb2n]

What makes KDE as good as it is ? Perhaps a KDE'r can shed some light that other projects would find helpful.

I always thought it was their choice of language ... German.

Re:On Oct. 25th

[Waldo_Jeffers]

I've been running Windows XP for the last couple of weeks. It's amazingly fast and stable. The interface is clean and intuitive. Truly an amazing Desktop OS, maybe the best yet.

MS @ LWCE

[bribecka]

I submitted this a story but apparently it's not interesing enough--MS's director of competitive strategy for Windows at LWCE, talking about lessons they've learned from Linux. Read it here at CNET.

Microsoft and South Park?

[Patoski]

Is it just me or does Microsoft's recent about face on OS ("linux is a cancer/virus" Oh you don't like that.. "we've learned a lot from OS") remind you of that "I can change" song in the South Park movie.

I CAN CHANGE
Bill Gates singing to ESR

Some people say that I'm a bad guy
That can't be right
That can't be right
But it's not as if I don't try
They just don't see
Try as I might

But I can change, I can change
I can learn to share my source code
I swear it.
I'll open up my code
And I will share it
Any minute now
It will be born again

Yes, I can change, I can change
I know I've been a dirty little bastard
I like to borrow, I like to steal
Yes, it's lame, but it's OK
Cause I can change

It's not my fault that I'm so selfish
It's the money, the money
You see IBM was sometimes selfish
And it made a prick of me

But I can change, I can change
I can learn to share my source code
I know it.
I'll open up my source
And I will show it
Any minute now
It will be born again

Eric Raymond:
But what if you never change?
What if you remain a code hording little butt-hole?

Saddam Hussein:
Hey Raymond
Don't be such a twit
Linus Torvalds won't have shit on me.
Just watch
Just watch me change
Here I go I'm changing
Hey Raymond Look! SHARED SOURCE!

KDE's advantages

[gowen]

Early start, strong core team and large user base for testing, blind luck. Not necessarily in that order.

RE: Linus's thoughts on .NET and Hailstorm

[Carnage4Life]

Ok, this is a pet peeve of mine so I'm just going to get it off my chest. .NET isn't Hailstorm. Everytime I see some Open Source person talk about .NET or Hailstorm all I see is a case of Not Invented Here Syndrome.

.NET
.NET the technology (versus .NET, the brand name) is a fairly decent idea. From what I've seen it borrows a lot from the Java platform but improves on it by adding a lot of features that Java should have that Sun has been slow to add plus having better cross language support than Java ever could. After being a Java programmer for about 2 years I think that both platforms are roughly equal in the functionality they bring with them since .NET has some features I think suck and Java has a few I think suck as well. (I'm probably going to write about this and submit to slashdot). Where the .NET platform outshines Java is how XML support is a lot more built into the platform and the tools than anything Java has to offer for now but I'm sure the Java folk will wake up once .NET actually ships.

The way I see it competition is always good. Don't knock it if you haven't tried it.

The main issues with the .NET platform are probably the fact that it'll only run on MSFT OSes while Java is a multi-OS development platform. But if you are doing development on MSFT OSes, I think the .NET platform would be a better in a bunch of places than Java although there are a few places I'd probably still stick with Java. If you don't believe this, download .NET and give it a shot.

Hailstorm
The main idea behind Hailstorm is a good one and the devil is in the details. I actually would pay money if I could be guaranteed a safe, central repository of all my user information currently floating around on the web especially for two reasons.

1. A while ago CD Now announced that they may be going out of business. This filled me with dread because they had my credit card info which would probably have been sold along with my CD listening preferences to the highest bidder as part of the liquidation process. At that time I would have loved it if there was some central place where CD Now got my credit card info from that I could just tell, "Hey, no longer share my credit card info with CD Now."
   
   
2. Also after the above incident I stopped shopping at CD Now and started shopping at Amazon. This meant that all the music preferences I had built up from rating over a hundred CDs at CDNow were lost and the only way to rebuild that relationship with Amazon would be to rate X amount of music or hope Amazon could do similar things with less info (which they have surprisingly enough). Again, some central repository which I could tell,"Stop sharing my music preferences with CD Now and share them with Amazon" would have been ideal.

The way I see it, the Hailstorm idea has merit. The problems I see are

• Guaranteeing security and reliability will be a bitch and a half.
• Websites may resist adopting it since customer info is the one valuable thing they have.
• Without motivation (i.e. marketing blitz) and an easy way to sign up, consumers won't flock to it.
• Entrusting all that information to a single entity would make some peole nervous.

All of the above problems can be tackled one way or the other either socially or technologically. Secondly, I think the time foir this kind of technology has come, whether it will be Microsoft's Hailstorm, the product of some competitor or an Open Source alternative is all that remains to be seen.

DISCLAIMER: I'm an ex-Microsoft emploee (former intern).

why pay for red carpet?

[nilstar]

Why would you pay for red carpet when for example, mandrake update (though only for linux mandrake I know) is free?

Re:why pay for red carpet?

[omega9]

It's so frustrating when people don't bother to read things through. Don't you think?

The new Red Carpet services are being added to the existing free service. Choosing to pay for Red Carpet Express ($9.95/month) basicly means you have access to more bandwidth to download your updates.

Re:why pay for red carpet?

[nilstar]

Um......... restricted speed download! I have servers which ping at 13ms for Mandrake Update. There is the advantage, free and fast!

Re:why pay for red carpet?

[omega9]

I still have a feeling you're missing some of the point. There no change in the free service. They haven't put up "bandwidth caps". The free service will keep on existing in it's current form. I imagine they'll just dedicate servers to paying customers, and keep the current structure for the free system.

As an example (since you seem to be a fan of Mandrake Update), say Mandrake added a new fee-based service in a similar fashion. Their current update construct would be untouched, however you have the option of paying for access to dedicated servers. You may be happy with the speeds you're getting off the free servers, but over time, as more users are connecting, it might be something to consider participating in.

Another point to consider is the demographic each is dealing with. Mandrake Update only works works with the Mandrake distro. So your max capacity can easily be drawn off the total number of Mandrake users. Ximian and Red Carpet, on the other hand, run on all (most if not all) distros. They've got Mandrake, Debian, Red Hat, SuSe, Turbo Linux, and all the other distros looking to them for services, so their max capacity has the potential to me much higher. That's probably why you will continue to see higher speeds on Mandrake Update servers, they are servicing a smaller group of people.

You could still make an arguement that: If you're running Mandrake Update, what's the reason to use Red Carpet? Because you will only receive updates when Mandrake makes them available. Again, this may be something plenty of people are comfortable with. But, if you'd like to branch out and have another point of access for updates, Red Carpet is a very nice tool.

Look, I'm not even trying to make a statement that Red Carpet is better then Mandrake Update. You should pick the tool that is right for you. It may even end up being neither of these. In fact, allthough I have before, I don't currently user either one. The issue is that more choices are being made available by Ximian. Show me the flaw in that?

Why not just use apt-get?

[Anonymous Coward]

I dunno, how about because urpmi is better (not to mention more functional)?

Re:Why not just use apt-get?

[elbobo]

i believe red carpet can sit on top of the dpkg interface as an apt-get replacement. although i wouldn't really know, can't get debian's x config to work with my new lcd screen, bugger it

If I'm going to pay for Red Carpet...

[TomatoMan]

...I'd be more interested in them keeping their packages current than giving me a fatter download pipe. Mozilla is still at 0.9.1 in Red Carpet; I chatted with some team members and they advised against maually installing 0.9.3 over the Red Carpet install because it would break things, and 0.9.3 isn't on the current radar for packaging according to the folks I taked to..

For minor updates, that's not such a big deal, but Moz users know that 0.9.3 is a quantum leap ahead of anything before it in terms of usability and stability, and it's a pretty huge piece of software in the desktop Linux world. I'm stuck at 0.9.1 until they put a package together. I know the guys are busy and doing it for nothing (so far), but take my money and pay someone to keep the packages as current as possible, please, if you want to take it.

Re:If I'm going to pay for Red Carpet...

[HiThere]

I don't know about "installing over...", but it's certainly possible to install along side of. I tend to put the test Mozilla'a in my home folder, but I'm also put them under local without any problem. (I'd probably want to use rpm to remove an old mozilla before putting a new one in it's place, but, as I said, I've never tried.)

Re:If I'm going to pay for Red Carpet...

[cobar]

You shouldn't have any difficulty if you use the sea (self extracting installer) and put it in say, /usr/local/mozilla and run /usr/local/mozilla/mozilla to start it. It won't even know the other copy is there.

Re: Linus's thoughts on .NET and Hailstorm

[bockman]

A couple of points about Hailstorm:

• CD Now cannot _legally_ sell credit card info (wich is not a big segret: every time I pay with it, I give this info away) nor user preferences. If they are bent to break the law, they could still do it if they acquire the information from your 'central repository': once they have it, what except law prevents them from using/selling it as they whish?
• I see the advantage of sharing your preferences among different shopping sites. This can be accomplished if these sites use a standard (i.e. controlled by a super-partes non-profit organization) open (i.e. whith specs available to everybody and not patented or such) protocol to communicate these information (I'm not saying that Hailstorm does not qualify, just don't know it). However, I don't see any need for a central site storing these information for you, when you can store it on your desktop and your software can communicate them to any site you connect with.

MS Trolls?

[SyntheticTruth]

I never really thought the rumors of MS lackeys were on slashdot posting pro-MS stuff was true, really...just geek paranoia, but after reading through the messages for this story, I came upon these two...and the almost exact phrases makes me wonder...

>Re:windows xp is the shit. (Score:1)
>by stevenbee on Thursday August 30, @08:12AM (#2234385)
>(User #227371 Info)
>I've been running Windows XP for the last couple
>of weeks. It's amazingly fast and stable.
>The interface is clean and intuitive. Can't wait
>to see what developers do with it. The
>drivers and gaming support are awesome. Truly an
>amazing OS, maybe the best yet.

...and...

>Re:On Oct. 25th (Score:1)
>by Waldo_Jeffers on Thursday August 30, @08:19AM (#2234408)
>(User #518590 Info)
>I've been running Windows XP for the last couple
>of weeks. It's amazingly fast and stable.
>The interface is clean and intuitive. Truly an
>amazing Desktop OS, maybe the best yet.

...is it just me or not? Funky.

Re:MS Trolls?

[sheldon]

Why do you care?

Re:MS Trolls?

[SyntheticTruth]

Well...

1.) If, lets say MS (or any other company) planted users to promote their product on Slashdot, it would just be very sad and kinda funny.

2.) If both of those posters, just by coincidence, happen to write the exact same phrases in almost the exact same way, then I would think they share something beyond our material realm of understanding. They should meet face to face and get together. They could have beautiful children.

Re:MS Trolls?

[sheldon]

I just find it interesting that you can't comprehend this and immediately assume that anyone saying good things about Microsoft must be in their employ.

If people are allowed to like the Amiga, OS/2 or Linux. Why can't people like Windows?

5 to 10 hours a week system maintenance

[Anonymous Coward]

"Linux software management is a major challenge for users, companies and software developers alike," said David Patrick, CEO of Ximian. "Companies we interviewed reported users each spending between five and 10 hours a week on system maintenance

I guess they're not using debian or a debian derived distribution.

Ximian

[RyanMuldoon]

I hope that people actually take time to read Ximian's press releases before passing judgement. But that is probably asking too much. Ximian is offering (in 45 days) two new Red Carpet-based services, ON TOP OF the current *free* Red Carpet updating service they provide as a gift to the community. First is Red Carpet Express, which is basically guaranteed fast access to software updates. A lot of people (including myself) requested something like this. I am happy that they are offering it. The second service is especially cool. The CorporateConnect idea is great. Basically, companies can tailor exactly what software (and in what channels) is offered, and which users can access that software. And it can push updates automatically in the corporate LAN. That is an incredibly useful tool. Ximian is being smart, and focusing on the Corporate desktop (and those customers) rather than end-users. Creating tools and services like these that really add value to a company's IT infrastructure is what is going to make Ximian succeed. End-user oriented business models can come later. Ximian is going to continue to create great software, and develop really useful services that are worth the money.

Re:Ximian

[Roblimo]

I have a few minor installation and usability quibbles about Red Carpet, ones I have discussed with Nat & crew (who are good people). I'm sure these little things will be taken care of soon.

But on the whole, $10 per month for keeping *any distro I have* updated automatically is a great bargain. Just hunting for a working Mandrake mirror takes *way* more than $10 worth of my time!

Yes, there is a free version of Red Carpet, and Debian is on free mirrors, but sooner or later someone pays for the bandwidth one way or another.

Nat (Ximian honcho) is not a very mercenary guy. But his landlord, insurance agent, and many other people want money from _him_. If he is going to keep working full-time on software, he needs income. If Red Carpet service is valuable to me, I am happy to pay for it, and if I start using it more than once in a long while I will consider myself a deadbeat moocher if I *don't* pay.

- Robin

Re: Linus's thoughts on .NET and Hailstorm

[HiThere]

Entrusting your info to someone else is inherently dangerous. The more appropriate answer is to spec-out a data-interchange API, and using is write programs that allow locally stored data to be exchanged with sites on the web. Under your control. Back up of encrypted files to a remote site is, of course, desireable, but that should also be under your control.

Note that if this is done with a local program, you would still depend on backups to get through system crashes. But if you are using HailStorm then either the security is weak, or a single corrupt file could deny you access to the data. (It must be dependant on a key file.) And you are laying yourself open to arbitrary increases in price.

The functionality that you are asking for is worthwhile. The solution should not be a centralized repository.

Re: Linus's thoughts on .NET and Hailstorm

[sheldon]

"Entrusting your info to someone else is inherently dangerous. "

Do you live in a cave with your money under a mattress?

I'm just wondering how you get by in life without services such as telephone, banking, etc. You must never do any shopping on the internet either.

$9.95? No way! DEM 9.95 sounds reasonable.

[Anonymous Coward]

Even though they charge $9.95 a month for the service they shouldn't forget that it's more like a $20.00 equivalent fee for subscribers in Europe. (It may only be a dollar to you, but keep in mind that I get the roughly the same amount of Deutschmarks as you get in dollars, however one Deutschmark is worth less than 50 cents).

If they could somehow hold back on their corporate greed and charge us over here DEM 9.95 / month (a reasonable 120.00 DEM / year, about the cost of two linux distros) then they might actually start selling subscriptions over here. However I'm not going to fork out an amount what would be to you $240.00...

Re:$9.95? No way! DEM 9.95 sounds reasonable.

[Anonymous Coward]

Wow, $240.. 365 days a year.. thats 65 cents a day... You must be some real big spender if you cant afford that.

At least we know this, your future options for great software on linux is diminishing everyday...

P.S. Thanks for not buy any loki games, You really helped a lot !

Re: Linus's thoughts on .NET and Hailstorm

[Legal Penguin]

Bockman, I'd be curious to find out on what you base the assertion that "CD Now cannot _legally_ sell credit card info . . . nor user preferences. "

CD Now has a privacy policy, the relevant portion of which states:

"We will not rent or sell your name, address, email address, credit card information or personal information to any third party without your permission. However, we must cooperate fully should a situation arise where we are required by law or legal process to provide information about a customer." (CD Now's Privacy Policy)

Lets assume for a moment that this constitutes a legally binding agreement between you and CDNow. (A question somewhat up in the air, particularly here in New York, given recent caselaw on click-through licenses). Let's further assume that CDNow violates this agreement if it sells your information. Your option is to sue CDNow for breach of contract and if a court finds the agreement to be legally binding and if the court finds they have breached, you will be allowed to prove your damages arising out of that breach and be compensated. If you live in the US that's probably about $50, the maximum liability you might sustain for fraudulent use of your credit card information. There has never been a successful lawsuit for missuse of "personal demographic information" or "musical taste" or anything like that. Remember here what many lawyers forget: in civil actions, "no harm no foul" is a good defense. Unless you can show with certainty that you have been harmed by CDNow's sale of this information, you have no legal recourse.

Then again, if CDNow goes into bankruptcy, the customer database would likely be considered an asset and sold. This would be ordered by the bankruptcy court, required by law, and therefore exempt from the privacy policy according to the second sentence of the language quoted above.

This is what happened to Toysmart, which sought to sell its customer lists in bankruptcy. It was sued by the FTC and various state attorneys general for the attempt (press release) but the case eventually settled when the Bankruptcy court found that there were no real buyers and Disney (the majority shareholer) agreed to pay $50,000 to Toysmart's creditors in exchange for having the info destroyed (NY AG press release).

The Toysmart case has led to an effort to get a law passed making it illegal to sell private information, but no such general law exists yet as far as I know. Thus it is not illegal (at least in most US states) to sell user preferences. Certain kinds of sensitive information (such as medical records) are protected by state law, and personally identifiable information that has been collected on a user under 13 years old cannot legally be sold (see: COPPA: The Children's Online Privacy Protection Act), but there is no general federal law barring sale of this kind of information.

Just an aside. IAAL, but this should not be construed as legal advice or relied upon for any purpose.

.Net/Hailstorm

[Marasmus]

Microsoft's implementation of the Passport service is a conflict of interest. Microsoft sells the desktop Operating System, which will use HailStorm/.Net/Passport. They sell the Server Operating System, which will have proprietary plugs to integrate the Passport system with MS Transaction Server. They charge the customer for the ability to access the server. They charge the server people for access to their database. They also close out alternative online-transaction options.

Let's say you go to GiganticBookstore.com, and in order to buy book X (which you already have listed on your screen), you can either click the "Pay with Passport!" icon, or go through the 5-minute process of creating a user account, putting in your credit card info, your anti-spam-mail preferences, and then finally buy that one book. The convenience is going to lead a lot of online stores to eventually offer access only via Passport, to simplify management of the transaction server.

This convenience isn't simply a market need - it's being forced into the market by the (monopoly) marketholder, as a way to ensure that people will be forced to use their transaction-related products in the future. I see this behavior, regardless of if Passport is free to the end user, as incredibly dangerous and a complete conflict of interest.

MS is putting their hands in everyone's cookie jar at once. You know it won't be long until HailStorm also integrates a PayPal-clone and kills competition there... and then integrates an iBill-clone and puts THEM out of business too. And best of all, if you're not running IE 6.x on Windows XP with your "Automatic Update Notification" turned on, you won't be able to buy things from internet stores with your own real, legal money. Mozilla running on Linux? Why would Microsoft even begin to care about its market share when they control the transaction server OS, the online credit and banking interfaces, and the customer account info for something like 20% of the United States? Market share of a product they've successfully pushed out of the online transaction realm will be of no concern.

Re: Linus's thoughts on .NET and Hailstorm

[Fujisawa Sensei]

Your CC info is less secure with Hailstorm than is is with anybody else. And in fact gives MS direct access to your purchasing infomation because they are directly invloved with the purchase. Much like a a travel agent has access to you itenary when you book a flight.

How many people do you want to have on demand access to your records?

Guaranteeing security and reliability will be a bitch and a half.

Rember MS doesn't even guarentee their software.

Websites may resist adopting it since customer info is the one valuable thing they have.

Websites have products to sell. Customer info simply allows them to gain info to sell products.

Without motivation (i.e. marketing blitz) and an easy way to sign up, consumers won't flock to it.

Of course it's going to be easy to sign up. How easy is it going to be to cancel?

Entrusting all that information to a single entity would make some peole nervous.

It should.

Next thing you know MS is gonna start having Hailstorm exclusivity contracts where realtors can't do business with non-hailstorm customers. Then they can try to force the non-hailstorm realtors out of the market.

This kind of technology is Big Brother at it's best. The idea of not having to type CC and universal preferences it nice, but this is a Big Brother and should be illegal.

Re: Linus's thoughts on .NET and Hailstorm

[simong]

There are levels of trust. You trust your doctor with your medical records. You trust your bank with your financial details. Word from Redmond has implied, for online purposes certainly, that MS would like Hailstorm to be a single point of trust. I don't think anyone is anywhere near as sophisticated as being able to do that in a trustworthy way, whatever Microsoft think.

Give me a break

[SpookComix]

What if Microsoft could secure trust in enough governments and major financial organisations to make a majority of Internet transactions use it?

Please. Unless you're purporting a huge consipiracy theory, could you explain to me how our government would trust Microsoft to create a secure environment? Keep in mind that it was our government's web site that was recently targeted by a worm that fed off of a security breach in a MS product.

And correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't it Windows NT4 that was not approved by use in our government's military because it was not secure enough?

Hailstorm and .NET may be just peachy, but don't count on our government to give it some sort of stamp of approval. Not for a long, long time.

By the way, I've been an MCSE for two years and typically enjoy MS products. These crazy theories just drive me nuts.

--SC

Re:Give me a break

[mikey504]

This is an almost hopelessly naieve point of view. The people in government responsible for making these decisions are just that, people. In the aggregate, they make up that "software market" we keep hearing so much about. (Particularly the informed decisions the market tends to make.) Most of them simply don't have the technical depth in this area necessary to make what we self-described techno-elite types would consider the "only right choice".

The sad truth is there is a tremendous shortage of people who really understand how computers work in the world. Among people who have been using computers for less than five or even ten years, the percentage who are aware that someone other than Microsoft or Apple writes operating system software is disturbingly small.

To make matters worse, the government pays less than private industry for computer talent, and therefore is at a loss competing with private industry for job candidates. Hell, many of the management types who have a lot of say in the matter aren't really "computer people" at all. Remember when blue screens paralyzed one of the Navy's new ships? Government branches have settled on Win32 platforms in the past and will likely continue to do so. It sucks, and I wish they would take better care of my tax dollars, but that's how it is.

According to UniSys (http://www.unisys.com/home/enterprise/), the Coast Guard has standardized on Windows NT for relaying mission critical search and rescue data. As a sailor who is planning on cutting the dock lines for good one day, this frightens me.

I think Linus is wrong not to be paranoid about this de facto tax collector issue. The government will be more than happy to let Microsoft collect revenue any way they can, because the government will collect taxes from them in the end. Why go to the trouble to figure out how to tax and collect on internet transactions (not to mention pushing the legislation through) if Microsoft can figure out how to do it for them and they can collect from Microsoft by taxing their revenue? After all, as far as most of our Congresspersons are concerned, Microsoft represents the best and brightest in computer innnovation. And they have the campaign contributions to prove it.

Re:Give me a break

[SpookComix]

After all, as far as most of our Congresspersons are concerned, Microsoft represents the best and brightest in computer innnovation. And they have the campaign contributions to prove it.

I hate to say it, but that last statement of yours is probably right. As they say, "Money talks, and bullshit (like CodeRed, Melissa, etc.) walks (or is quickly forgotten).

Good point.

--SC

Re: Linus's thoughts on .NET and Hailstorm

[jbrw]

Next thing you know MS is gonna start having Hailstorm exclusivity contracts where realtors can't do business with non-hailstorm customers. Then they can try to force the non-hailstorm realtors out of the market.

And that's the fear associated with Hailstorm - that they'll impose a "tax" on internet usage. Even if it's indirect (ie, passed on to the web site you're trying to access via your Passport account), do you really want Microsoft squeezing money out of you at every turn.

And Microsoft's recent track record of abrupt about-turns isn't great (AOL and XP, for example).

As i've said elsewhere, good for Microsoft from trying to make money whereever they can - it doesn't mean I have to be part of it, though.

There's also the worrying theory put forward by certain people that MS is waiting for the right turn to screw open source projects based on possible patent infrigements.

Do you trust them to not try to screw competing technologies over as soon as it is safe for them to do so?

...j

Gates' wife wrote the paper clip

[Wee]

Who knows who wrote the paper clip in [Microsoft] Word?.

Bill Gates' wife was responsible for the paper clip. Really, it's true. Melinda French Gates was a project lead on MS Bob (you have to remember MicroSoft Bob -- it was that cartoony software that slowed your machine to a crawl and insulted you while balancing your checkbook or reading email). When Bob was revealed to be the complete and utter turkey that it was always destined to be, guess what got some of the "usability and human interface" stuff? Office. Guess who happened to also be, ah, "seeing" The Boss? Melinda. Why wasn't Bob just canned, like any other project that wastes millions and failed completely? You have to wonder if Bill G wasn't getting pillow-talked into something. In fact, MS Bob was the first consumer product Bill Gates released personally. People do the strangest things for love.

Anyway, a lot of what Bob had to offer didn't get canned (as it should have). It got repuposed and wound up in other MS products. Take a look at the screenshot on this page. See that dog in the lower corner? That was Bob's dog Rex. (I wish they had a picture of the dragon named "Java"; I wonder if McNealy every knew about that?) Looks like that paper clip, eh? Bob's ghost is in other stuff, too. MS Agent had a re-incarnation.

Well this is all way OT. But I think the Bob fiasco sheds some light on what goes on at MS. There's really no reason to wonder about the pape clip. I'm sure Melinda will insist on touchy-feely stuff being included in every MS product. I love it when someone thinks for me...

-B

Don't throw away diversity!

[Jagasian]

Hailstorm is going to end up being nothing more than one central point of failure for all of e-commerce. Wide scale adoption of Hailstorm will lead to a wonderfully tender Achilles Heel for e-commerce.

I will put money on the fact that some hacker or group of hackers will crack Hailstorm wide open, if it ever gains enough of a following. Do we really want to allow a 14 year old script-kiddie to make the NASDAQ drop 20% in one day because all of e-commerce was fuxored and put out of commission for at least the next few business days?

Don't throw away diversity!

Clearing up some confusion

[vukicevic]

Unfortunately, the press release about Red Carpet Express and Red Carpet Corporate Connect erroneously left an important bit of information. Red Carpet will remain free. Red Carpet Express is an optional service which gives you guaranteed access to the latest updates, even if the main public Red Carpet server is congested. Red Carpet Corporate Connect offers additional features to corporate workgroup users.

The conspiracy theorists will no doubt continue to accuse us of "selling out" at every step of the way; I'm too busy working on adding additional features to Red Carpet to get upset at this point. I hope that anyone with questions regarding Red Carpet or other Ximian products/services will at least contact Ximian directly.

Re: Linus's thoughts on .NET and Hailstorm

[bockman]

Here in Europe privacy is a bigger issue, I think. Or at least so our gouvernment likes us to believe. Where I live there is a law about that (though I never read it), which should prevent companies to distribute or even archive private demografic info without agreement with the involved person.

So maybe I was a little too hopeful here, and judged the world from my little turf.

If I still believed that "law shall make sense", I would find a little strange that personal info is considered company asset, being something that I permit to use only for specific purpose, not something that I sold to the company or gave away (I see it a little as the Intellectual Property issue). Having given up whith this delusion, however,I am only a little surprised of what you say.

XML file formats

[ungerware]

From the StarOffice review:

Not only will XML provide for smaller file sizes, it also opens the door to interactivity

I don't get it. How exactly does XML provide for smaller file sizes? I would think that a verbosely specified tag system is less space-efficient than a binary format.

Re:Guano Heralded as Prozac Substitute

[Anonymous Coward]

Why is this FlameBait ?
It's Hilarious !
Hope to see more of this !
Reminds me of Saturday Night Live

Passport may be a bigger threat then Windows

[Billly Gates]

This is a conflict of interest. Microsoft sells the desktop Operating System, which will use HailStorm/.Net/Passport. They sell the Server Operating System, which will have proprietary plugs to integrate the Passport system with MS Transaction Server. They charge the customer for the ability to access the server. They charge the server people for access to their database. They also close out alternative options. Let's say you go to GiganticBookstore.com, and in order to buy book X (which you already have listed on your screen), you can either click the "Pay with Passport!" icon, or go through the 5-minute process of creating a user account, putting in your credit card info, your anti-spam-mail preferences, and then finally buy that one book. The convenience is going to lead a lot of online stores to eventually offer access only via Passport, for their own convenience. This convenience isn't simply a market need - it's being forced into the market by the marketholder, as a way to ensure that people will be forced to use their products in the future. I see this behavior, whether Passport is free or not to the end user, as incredibly dangerous and a complete conflict of interest. MS is putting their hands in everyone's cookie jar at once. You know it won't be long until HailStorm also integrates a PayPal-clone and kills competition there... and then integrates an iBill-clone and puts THEM out of business too. And best of all, if you're not running IE 6.x on Windows XP with your "Automatic Update Notification" turned on, you won't be able to buy things from internet stores with your own real, legal money. Mozilla running on Linux? Why would Microsoft even begin to care about its market share when they control the transaction server OS, the online credit and banking interfaces, and the customer acconut info for something like 20% of the United States? Market share of a product they've successfully pushed out of the online transaction realm will be of no concern.

Disappointment

[krismon]

I was really disappointed with this year's show. I didn't think it had the same energy as last year's show in San Jose. I think the number of exhibitors have gone down. I'm sure the economy has something to do with it, probably half the companies that were there last year have gone under. I thought the general mood was: eh.. we're here.. let's TRY to sell something.. whereas last year was: Hey! I've got something new and innovative, this is something you can't live without. There was also a lot more anticipation last year I think, there was the release of Helix(now Ximian) and OSDN, 2.4 kernel, and the economy and the technology outlook was much better. SGI was noticably absent, they had one of the biggest areas last year. There just wasn't the noise and excitement this year.

lessig on copyright litigation for oss developers

[Benjiman McFree]

Does anybody have a url for that c-net link?

I looked at page source, but didn't see a url for realplayer.

If anybody has the url for the video, please post it.

thanx

Not the thrill it once was

[CaptainCarrot]

A number of people, Krismon included, have voiced some disappointment at the excitement of the show

...As he says himself just a few posts up from here. This year was just a lot of "same-old, same-old", with very little that was new or exciting. The haul of swag was the poorest yet, too.

Am I the only one who really misses the old ".org Pavillion" they had a couple of years ago? It was a great place to just hang out and get to know people, or hack on your laptop if that's what you wanted to do. Now all the .orgs have their own booths. While I suppose it's nice of LWCE to provide them, it just doesn't make for the same atmosphere.

New Linuxcare BBC and Poster

[aftyde]

Come by the booth, new totally cool 2.4 based Bootable Business Card (rescue CD), and a harsh poster mocking community folks... :) See the Slashdot guys in hi-chairs! You have to ask for this stuff- booth staff has been instructed to ignore trick-or-treaters.

MY highlight of the show....

[Vess V.]

"How long is your penis?" - CmdrTaco. In fact, I think i'll make it my sig.

-Vess

Re: Linus's thoughts on .NET and Hailstorm

[sheldon]

Personally what I find far more disturbing is the number of websites which store my credit card number after I complete a transaction... for my convenience.

This has been going on for years. Strangely nobody complains about it. Instead when Microsoft suggests a service which might provide a different alternative to these insecure solutions, a bunch of people start whining.

This anti-everything-MS attitude isn't very well founded in reality or technical knowhow. I find it disappointing and wonder why I should grant any value to such an opinion.