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FEMA To Use Cell Phone Signals To Find Survivors

twistah writes: "CNN had an interview with a representative of the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA), the agency helping with the New York WTC rescue effort, who said that Lucent has given them technology to trace the signal of cell phones. The idea is that people will give them phone numbers of cell phones and pagers of people missing due to the WTC collapse, which FEMA will call and attempt to trace the signal to find the missing people. FEMA has now put this information on their web site, and are dubbing it the 'Wireless Emergency Response Team.'"

178 of 286 comments (clear)

  1. Are they alive? by jrockway · · Score: 1

    Can people live this long under rubble? Or are they just finding bodies like this?

    --
    My other car is first.
    1. Re:Are they alive? by orius_khan · · Score: 2

      Is that really viable at this point? Most cell phone batteries don't last for too many days, even while not in use. They'd last even less time if the owners were trying to use them to call for help like some of them did. Unfortunately most probably didn't get through because of the phone network jam that happened right afterwards...

      --
      Sometimes the best solution to morale problems is just to fire all the unhappy people.
    2. Re:Are they alive? by spudnic · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I heard reports that there where several subteranian areas that have pockets that are open. This was followed up by saying that there where a lot of snack shops and the such that would have been stocked with food and drinks.

      If someone was lucky enough to find themselves in this situation they could survive for quite awhile.

      --
      load "linux",8,1
    3. Re:Are they alive? by jrockway · · Score: 1

      Yeah, I guess if a building fell on me, I'd want to be in a snack shop. Seems so unlikely, though

      --
      My other car is first.
    4. Re:Are they alive? by spudnic · · Score: 1

      If I understand correctly, there was a huge shopping area or something underneath the towers. I'm sure food would not be hard to find in that situation.

      --
      load "linux",8,1
    5. Re:Are they alive? by humblecoder · · Score: 2, Informative
      If I understand correctly, there was a huge shopping area or something underneath the towers. I'm sure food would not be hard to find in that situation.

      Yes, there is a shopping mall below the WTC complex, as well as a PATH station and a NYC Subway station. I haven't heard anything on the news about how it held up under the weight of the collapse. It would seem that if it did hold, rescue workers could approach the site from below via the train tubes.

    6. Re:Are they alive? by jelle · · Score: 1

      "Is that really viable at this point?"

      That answer is simple: Even if it has only a very small chance of saving anybody, they should still try.

      --
      --- Hindsight is 20/20, but walking backwards is not the answer.
    7. Re:Are they alive? by CybrGuyRSB · · Score: 1

      I heard that the subway station collapsed along with the building.

    8. Re:Are they alive? by Rackemup · · Score: 4, Informative

      They're trying to clear the subway tunnel under the building to see if anyone actually on the platform under the towers survived. The problem is that water mains have burst, flooding the tunnels and filling them with debris. At present I think they're a third of the way there.

    9. Re:Are they alive? by bigbadwlf · · Score: 1

      If they're not mortally wounded and have water, then some could still be alive.
      You can go a long time without food..... but not nearly as long without water.

    10. Re:Are they alive? by Blue+Neon+Head · · Score: 2

      Perhaps, but there's another problem: air. You'd need a hole somewhere, or some sort of ventilation, or they'd have asphyxated by now.

    11. Re:Are they alive? by jrockway · · Score: 1

      All I can say is that I hope like hell that people managed to survive. My prayers go out to those trapped, those killed, as well as their families. God bless America.

      --
      My other car is first.
    12. Re:Are they alive? by Kaki+Nix+Sain · · Score: 1
      As tragic as this whole thing is... laughing would be the sane response.

      --

      (C) Kaki Sain, 2011. By reading this, you have illegally copied my property to your brain.

    13. Re:Are they alive? by Hub_City · · Score: 1

      One (minor) ray of hope: AT&T Local Network Service switches, located directly beneath one of the collapsed towers, finally quit switching calls because they ran out of battery power, at 4:00pm the day of the collapse. Switches being sensitive things (well built, yes, but not prone to handling being pulverized in anywhere near a robust manner) it's certainly possible that some of the underground areas didn't collapse. (Yes, all the AT&T people that managed it got out.) I'd worry about going in there, though, at this point.

    14. Re:Are they alive? by AssFace · · Score: 1

      doubtful - the thing is very breezy.

      and heavy - which is the main problem - it isn't like they were burined in sand - metal and debris and stuff.

      you can survive a while without food obviously (longer if you are fat), and the water is what really gets you, you need that. they have air though, the problem woudl lie in if they are wounded, or something fell on them so as to hinder their breathing.

      there are acconts of some walking away, and others where the guy didn't even know the building had collapsed, that was how well preserved his area was.

      a man was on the radio saying there were 20 ft wide and 7 ft tall pockets that he was workking with and there were people in there. he said the problem is that there is stuff on top of them and they can't just push stuff aside b/c it caves in on them.

      --

      There are some odd things afoot now, in the Villa Straylight.
    15. Re:Are they alive? by qqtortqq · · Score: 1

      Right, I heard a firefighter equate it to a game of "pick up sticks"- if you move the wrong peice of debris, the pocket these people were surviving in is no longer.

    16. Re:Are they alive? by Gordonjcp · · Score: 1

      ...pull anything but corpses out of there alive.

      Now that I'd like to see ...

    17. Re:Are they alive? by orius_khan · · Score: 1

      The problem is there are a lot more Muslims and Arabs than there are Americans (billions!). And if we go over and piss them all off by killing lots of 'innocent' people in Afganistan, we've suddenly got several million more people willing to be suicide bombers. Even if we manage to destroy every boat train and airplane in that whole region, we've lost almost all our fuel and petroleum products (military jets need gas too), and they could easily flood several million people carrying small bombs into Europe. Try to target your cruise missiles on something like that...

      You may not care about Europeans, but I do. And don't forget there are also several million of them (towelheads) living in our country too. Imagine what kind of chaos could ensue if every taxi cab driver and convenience store manager (in NYC at least) decided to kill two people or set off a bomb killing fifty to avenge the deaths of his brothers back home...

      --
      Sometimes the best solution to morale problems is just to fire all the unhappy people.
    18. Re:Are they alive? by badk1tty · · Score: 1

      It doesn't have anything to do with everyone trying to use the phones at once, it has to do with the main cell antenna thing being on the top of the WTC, knocking out most of the cell phone usage.

      --
      My lips may promise, but my heart is a whore.
    19. Re:Are they alive? by badk1tty · · Score: 1

      It's beyond that. It's not even "5000 people". Those are just the people who are missing who have people looking for them come forward about it. They've only found like 100 bodies and 400 some body parts...most of those people will never be found, so there will never be an accurate reading on who's missing and exactly how many people were lost there. Sad? Indeed. True? Aye.

      -bk

      --
      My lips may promise, but my heart is a whore.
  2. Kudos to MITRE by zerOnIne · · Score: 1

    I work as a co-op for the Mitre Corporation [www.mitre.org] and last week it was announced on a company email list that about a dozen MITREites are down in NYC helping find people with this cell phone technology. Details have been a little sketchy as to precisely what was being used and such, so it's nice to get that information. I'm really proud to be part of a company doing what we can to help.

    --
    09
  3. Wont the phone batterys be dead by now? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I was thinking about this the other day, but if people were frantically calling these cellphones then the battery would almost certainly be dead by now, and even if this were not the case my phone will only last about 4 days without getting charged as it would ramp up the power output to try and get a signal.

    Hopefully this will be a good launching point for this technology in the future

    1. Re:Wont the phone batterys be dead by now? by SirDrinksAlot · · Score: 1

      well, when my cellphone has a signal it will last a little longer then a week, when there is no signal it actualy uses less power. After 15 minutes with out a signal the phone begins to rest and conserve power, it will check for a signal every once and a while and will actualy use less power then when it does have a signal.

  4. GPS equipment in phones would be useful here by smoondog · · Score: 3, Interesting

    For safety reasons cell phones are going to have GPS receivers in them soon to tell 911 operators where you are when calling on your cell phone. This would be totally useful here, because there are going to be a lot more cell phones in that pile of rubble than living people. While I agree with the privacy concerns (including my own) this would have been totally helpful here. (Especially since most cellphones don't have more than 3-5 days of battery life. They should all be running down by now).

    -Sean

    1. Re:GPS equipment in phones would be useful here by Russ+Steffen · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Actually, it would be nearly useless in this case. GPS signals are very, very weak and can blocked by as little as a sheet of aluminum foil or a few millimeters of water. A GPS receiver under all those tons of concrete and steel would never be able to aquire and track.

    2. Re:GPS equipment in phones would be useful here by NMerriam · · Score: 3, Interesting

      No, GPS doesn't work without line-of-sight to the satellites (and you have to have 3-4 satellites at a minimum, which is tricky even outdoors in a place like Manhattan).

      But having the cell triangulation that is (i think) being mandated for general emergency services use would be useful in this situation. it proovides effectively the same results but only works in a cellular-enabled area...

      --
      Recursive: Adj. See Recursive.
    3. Re:GPS equipment in phones would be useful here by spectecjr · · Score: 1

      Actually, it would be nearly useless in this case. GPS signals are very, very weak and can blocked by as little as a sheet of aluminum foil or a few millimeters of water. A GPS receiver under all those tons of concrete and steel would never be able to aquire and track.

      No problem; just cache the result if you lose the GPS signal. In cases such as this, your location wouldn't change too much, and people could use the last-known location information as a starting point for exhaustive searches.

      --
      Coming soon - pyrogyra
    4. Re:GPS equipment in phones would be useful here by Rackemup · · Score: 2
      I believe the technology they are implementing in the 911 system will allow operators to triangulate the cell signals to determine the callers location... not really a GPS system since GPS can't be used inside (or under millions of tonnes of rubble).

      Isn't it also possible to use sensitive electronic equipment to pick up the "here I am" signal that cell phones send out periodically to the towers?

    5. Re:GPS equipment in phones would be useful here by mindriot · · Score: 1

      Even if GPS were to work in a place like that, I think that firstly the accuracy is not high enough to find out exactly under which piece of debris a person is hidden, and secondly GPS will not tell you how deep a person lies.

    6. Re:GPS equipment in phones would be useful here by deranged+unix+nut · · Score: 1

      They could put local GPS broadcaster to send a stronger signal and help provide more accurate locations. This was suggested for a airline auto-landing system using GPS at one point.

      That being said, it is still highly unlikely that the signals could get very far through the structural debris.

      It is worth trying for the chance that they can connect to someone alive, in an air pocket, or perhaps just to expediate the location and removal of bodies in the rubble. It might also help in the identification of bodies too.

    7. Re:GPS equipment in phones would be useful here by caseydk · · Score: 1

      one of the fundamental problems is that it doesn't work in buildings AT ALL... it's absolutely horrible... now add in the resolution that it offers +/- 10 meters.. now add in multiple ones that could be close together... it'd be a mess and wouldn't result in anything anyway...

    8. Re:GPS equipment in phones would be useful here by Russ+Steffen · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Except in this case the location cached before the collision would be something like "1 World Trade Center, NE corner, floor 45 through 55". (GPS's vertical accuracy is much worse than it's horizontal accuracy.) Now add the fact that the nearest cell tower was on the roof, and it went offline immediately after the collision. Now add the fact that floors 45 through 55 are now laying in a pile with the other 100 floors. That cached position will likely be hundreds of feet from where the phone ended up - and that's assuming the person and phone ended up in the same place.


      I'm not saying that GPS in cells phones is or isn't a good idea. All I'm saying is that it wouldn't be likely to have helped locate anyone in this case. The only way to find and rescue the people with those cell phones is to trianglate the signals from the phones.

    9. Re:GPS equipment in phones would be useful here by uchian · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Question - why use GPS at all? I'm sure that at any given location a mobile phone is in touch with more than one mobile transmitter within reach. Why could these not be adapted to triangulate the position of a mobile?

    10. Re:GPS equipment in phones would be useful here by alienmole · · Score: 1
      No problem; just cache the result if you lose the GPS signal

      Sorry, but you're way off base here. Try walking around a major city center with a handheld GPS sometime. The cached location would probably show that the phone was somewhere else entirely - perhaps in the street approaching the WTC, or even at a suburban train station or bridge where the sky was less obstructed.

    11. Re:GPS equipment in phones would be useful here by deranged+unix+nut · · Score: 1

      The problem of using Cell phones in buildings is that the metal in the building interferes with the radio signals.

      If you can boost the signals, you might be able to:
      1) Establish communication
      2) Get a much more accurate location (probably via triangulation)

    12. Re:GPS equipment in phones would be useful here by Andrew+Miklos · · Score: 1

      Well seeing as the GPS equipment and the cell phone equipment would be unrelated (IIRC since GPS uses satellites and not cellular towers) it would be possible that the cell phones could be located as they are right now. I agree that having GPS on telephones isn't exactly the best idea in general, but in this case, it would have been extremely helpful.

      --
      This tastes like granma! By george, you're right! it DOES taste like granma! We'll take a box of it!
    13. Re:GPS equipment in phones would be useful here by grishnav · · Score: 1

      Actually, most GPS equiptment does tell you how deep a person lies. The problem is that there would be no way to get a GPS signal to a GPS unit burried under all that rubble. GPS's are that accurate, BTW, I have seen mine be acurate to within 13 feet, and heard of people who have gotten it to 5 or 6 on a good day. I can grab my GPS, make a lat/lon point, leave some footprints, come back the next day (using the point I made earlier) and be less than one step away from where I was. Of course, I'm not under tons of rubble.

    14. Re:GPS equipment in phones would be useful here by Tungz10 · · Score: 1

      In NYC, you're lucky if you can get a 2D GPS fix, outside. Indoors, forget it. The cached result would probably be more like: "Herald's Square, enroute to World Trade Center, ground level"

      Now, what if they used GPS technology to lock into cell towers instead of satellites? The towers would broadcast their position, and if a phone can reach at least three of them, it will determine a fix.

    15. Re:GPS equipment in phones would be useful here by crazy_swimmer · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Dude, I wish it weren't so for the sake of those trapped, but the GPS signal really is very weak, and could never make it through that pile of rubble. I just went backpacking on Labor Day weekend, and my friend had a GPS locator device. Even in a remote area north of Yosemite National Park in California (an area with nothing man-made to provide interference, and roughly 9000 feet higher elevation than the WTC), we still had a hard time getting a signal. Yes, the batteries were in and fully charged. The fact of the matter is, the sparse trees and even our own bodies were blocking the signal in some cases.

    16. Re:GPS equipment in phones would be useful here by mpe · · Score: 2

      The problem of using Cell phones in buildings is that the metal in the building interferes with the radio signals

      You can then install equiptment, known as pico cells, inside the building. Indeed you undoubtedly need multiple cells to cover such a large building, since a single powerful cell simply does not have enough slots to even register all the handsets.

    17. Re:GPS equipment in phones would be useful here by mpe · · Score: 2

      Isn't it also possible to use sensitive electronic equipment to pick up the "here I am" signal that cell phones send out periodically to the towers?

      Even simpler you put a cellular base station onto a truck then you can not only pick up the registration you can also call the phone.

  5. batteries are dead by now by bjtuna · · Score: 3, Insightful

    by now, any of those ppls' cell phone batteries have long since worn out.

    1. Re:batteries are dead by now by IvyMike · · Score: 3, Informative

      While you're almost certainly correct about phones, my two-way pager's battery lasts for at least a month, so there's at least that.

    2. Re:batteries are dead by now by mgeneral · · Score: 1

      Yes, but the number of people with two-way pagers is a mere fraction of those with cell phones. Probably to few to be of any use.

      --

      Goals are deceptive - the unaimed arrow never misses.
    3. Re:batteries are dead by now by Rimbo · · Score: 2

      My phone's batteries typically last over a week even when I leave it on all week long, but then, battery life was one of my main concerns when I was looking for a phone.

    4. Re:batteries are dead by now by tcc · · Score: 2

      If Id be stucked under I'd contact in intervals of hours, I wouldn't leave it on all the time to try to save some battery time. I'm sure some of them thought about that issue.

      --
      --- Metamoderating abusive downgraders since my 300th post.
    5. Re:batteries are dead by now by dgp · · Score: 1

      My Ericsson T29 with the longest lasting battery will last for seven days on standby. Thats what my own phone puts out - the brochure will say it lasts even longer.

    6. Re:batteries are dead by now by jrockway · · Score: 1

      but probably _some_

      --
      My other car is first.
    7. Re:batteries are dead by now by david.heyman · · Score: 1

      Yes, but the number of people with two-way pagers is a mere fraction of those with cell phones. Probably to few to be of any use. In this case fractions and percentages are not relavent. If one person has a two-way pager and can be found because it is still working that is a 100% success rate on saving that one person.

    8. Re:batteries are dead by now by mpe · · Score: 2

      My phone's [motorola.com] batteries typically last over a week even when I leave it on all week long, but then, battery life was one of my main concerns when I was looking for a phone.

      One of the main factors affecting battery life is TX power. If you are always in an area of good coverage then it will never use maximum power.
      The situation the phones in question have been subjected to was progressive loss of nearby cells, WTC1, WTC2, South Manhattan. Combined with attenuation of signal.
      A phone which would usually last a week might not last 8 hours taken somewhere where no base station was available.

    9. Re:batteries are dead by now by meldroc · · Score: 2

      Battery life is highly variable, and dependent on signal strength and talk time versus idle time. For example, my cell phone has a claimed battery life of 5 days. If I spent all my time right at the base of a cell tower, it would last that long. However, I spend much of my time working in a large building that blocks cell-phone signals. The phone responds by raising its power levels to compensate. I'm lucky to get two days of battery life. Most of these cell phones are buried under tons of steel & concrete. The phones will either use their batteries quickly, or go into a power saving mode where it shuts off its receiver entirely until the user presses a button. In either case, they're not listening & not transmitting, and not much use to the rescuers.

      --

      Meldroc, Waster of Electrons
    10. Re:batteries are dead by now by mpe · · Score: 2

      Most of these cell phones are buried under tons of steel & concrete.

      Also what are they going to be communicating with? Have rescuers brought in truck mounted cell sites or was power restored to adjacent sites in short order? (Though if they only had a land line connection to the switching centre underneath the rubble that wouldn't help much.)

  6. E911 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1



    there is a blurb at techienews here about E911 with a link to an article about when phone companies were supposed to have it.

  7. Cellphone batteries running out? by zulux · · Score: 3, Interesting

    After so many hours, woulden't most cell phone batteries have run out by now. I hope I'm wrong.

    --

    Moneyed corporations, non-working 'poor' and criminal prisoners are turning productive citizens into tax-slaves.

    1. Re:Cellphone batteries running out? by Rosco+P.+Coltrane · · Score: 3, Insightful
      It seems to me that there are two ways for cell phone signals to be useful so long after these phones' last charge :

      Someone with a very big clue realizes cell phone signals will be useful when rescue operations take place and convinces all the cell phone companies to shut down all the cell towers around the area of the disaster. That way, cell phones don't get any signal anymore and stop "talking" to the towers, therefore conserving battery energy. Afterward, during the rescue operations (now), cell towers are switched back on for a few minutes every 2 hours or so, and rescuers take advantage of these few minutes to scan the area for cell phone responses.

      Buried victims who are still alive *and* still able to reach their cell phones *and* still able to think clearly enough realize that their cell phones may be useful to their future rescue, switch them off, then turn them on only a few minutes per day, to make a call, or hoping that someone will pick up their phones' signals.

      These are the only two possibilities I can think of that would keep cell phones alive and somewhat usable so long after the tragedy. Sadly, I don't think either possibility is even remotely likely. Of course, I wish with all my heart that I'm wrong, and also that battery technology and power management are now advanced enough that lifes can be saved as a result.

      --
      "A door is what a dog is perpetually on the wrong side of" - Ogden Nash
    2. Re:Cellphone batteries running out? by deranged+unix+nut · · Score: 1

      Maybe they have logs that they can check and extrapolate information from?

    3. Re:Cellphone batteries running out? by zulux · · Score: 2

      As I understand it - if a Cell phone can't get a signal, it boosts it's power output in an attempt to connect. We have a tower near my house, and the my cell phone stays on standby for six days - if I bring it backpacking and leave it on, it's dead within hours. You idead is good though - perhaps we would just need to put high-powered cell towers so the individual phones can communicate efficently.

      --

      Moneyed corporations, non-working 'poor' and criminal prisoners are turning productive citizens into tax-slaves.

    4. Re:Cellphone batteries running out? by weeeee · · Score: 1

      By now i would guess that most phones would have run out of batteries. However some people may have been smart enough to turn their's off for most of the time, only occassionally calling. If resucers get close, then they could turn it on and start calling.

    5. Re:Cellphone batteries running out? by gss · · Score: 1

      My phone is the same but the reason is because when the phone is connected digitally battery consumption is much lower, when outside of the city (out of digital coverage) it will switch to analogue mode which eats up the batteries.

    6. Re:Cellphone batteries running out? by dachshund · · Score: 2
      As I understand it - if a Cell phone can't get a signal, it boosts it's power output in an attempt to connect.

      My understanding (and it may be wrong) is as follows:

      - The cellphone listens for a carrier signal from one or more towers.
      - If a signal is detected, only then does it attempt to register with the transmitter.

      That way a phone doesn't burn through its entire battery every time you leave a coverage area. There's really no reason to transmit anything if you can't hear the tower (which is a more powerful transmitter than you are.)

    7. Re:Cellphone batteries running out? by SagSaw · · Score: 1

      I really don't know much about the specific details of cellular communications, except for this little experiment we tried a few months ago in our EMC chamber work. For those of you who have never seen one, an EMC chamber is basically a room which has been heavily shielded to prevent any outside electromagnetic signals from getting inside. One day, we locked a cell-phone inside the chamber, just to see what it would do. As soon as the door was closed, the cell-phone did two interesting things: First, the output power seemed to go up, and second, it tried to, for lack of a better word, ping, a cell-tower much more often. Anyway, that would seem to support your observations.

      --
      Come test your mettle in the world of Alter Aeon!
    8. Re:Cellphone batteries running out? by jockm · · Score: 1

      My phone (a NeoPoint 1000) searches for a cell, if it can't find one it goes into a low power mode where it decreases the frequency that it looks for the cell. It can easily go 3-4 days in that mode.

      --

      What do you know I wrote a novel
    9. Re:Cellphone batteries running out? by zulux · · Score: 1

      It seems form the comments here that the cell phone manufacturers have several method to deal with a loss of signal.

      1) Go into low power mode and check for signal every once in a while to coserve battery.
      2) Go into high-power mode in an attempt to get a signal quickly.

      If cell phones had GPS receivers they could be a bit smarter - if their position changed they could go into high-power mode, otherwise they would stay in low-power mode.

      --

      Moneyed corporations, non-working 'poor' and criminal prisoners are turning productive citizens into tax-slaves.

    10. Re:Cellphone batteries running out? by silicon_synapse · · Score: 1

      If cell phones had GPS receivers they could be a bit smarter - if their position changed they could go into high-power mode, otherwise they would stay in low-power mode.

      But if the phone couldn't pick up a cellular signal, what are the chances it could pick up a much weaker GPS signal to know when it moved? Perhaps it could work if you're in the middle of nowhere where you could pick up GPS satelites but no cell towers, but there's no way it would work under tons of rubble in NYC.

    11. Re:Cellphone batteries running out? by ThomK · · Score: 1

      Well if there isn't more towers in that one spot of the world, I don't know where else.

      --

      TK

    12. Re:Cellphone batteries running out? by aka-ed · · Score: 1

      If the towers are only on for a few minutes per hour, and survivors only turn on their phones for a few minutes per hour, then the odds are slim that that survivors and towers will be communicating at all.

      Since it is a good idea for the survivors to save phone batteries this way, turning off the towers is a bad idea.

      --
      I survived the Dick Cheney Presidency 7 to 9 AM 7-21-07
    13. Re:Cellphone batteries running out? by SagSaw · · Score: 1

      This is comleatly hypothetical, but is how I would probably do it:

      Good GPS/Good Cell: Operate Normally

      Good GPS/No Cell: Check for signal every so often, or after moving a certain distance.

      No GPS/Good Cell: Operate Normally

      No GPS/No Cell: Decide that reception is very poor in general. Enter _really_ low power mode, since operation is pointless. Occassionally wake-up and see if the situation has changed.

      Pure speculation anyway, but is how I would probably design such a system.

      --
      Come test your mettle in the world of Alter Aeon!
    14. Re:Cellphone batteries running out? by jrockway · · Score: 1

      I hate to say this, but how often are you trapped under rubble? It's something too hard to plan for. Just like the WTC designers didn't design the towers to sustain airplane impacts. Not something that ever happens. You can't always plan for the worst case.

      I need a new sig. Lemme think of one and I'll change it. (I've gotten a few flames recently, it was actually from a Daily Herald article in July)

      --
      My other car is first.
    15. Re:Cellphone batteries running out? by silicon_synapse · · Score: 1

      Well actually, the designers did design the towers to sustain airplain impacts and they did. They didn't survive the fire however. Tuesday wasn't the first time a skyscraper has been hit by a plane.

    16. Re:Cellphone batteries running out? by BlueUnderwear · · Score: 2
      , an EMC chamber is basically a room which has been heavily shielded to prevent any outside electromagnetic signals from getting inside.

      Here is an experiment that everybody can do at home, without having an EMC chamber, and the output is quite ...errmh... different:

      • Put cell phone in microwave oven
      • Close door
      • No, DON'T SWITCH THE MICROWAVE ON. Reserve that experiment for your Windows XP CD's...
      • Call the phone from another phone: it still rings...
      • If your phone has a reception quality indicator, observe it: reception is almost as good as outside.
      So you may wonder: why is this behavior supposed to be strange? Well, microwave ovens are supposed to be shielded to prevent the microwaves getting out and cooking the innards of however happens to be standing in the kitchen... However, from what I've heard, mobile phone use waves which are quite close in frequency to microwaves. So how is it possible that the phone can still communicate, even inside the shielding? Any RF engineer care to comment?
      --
      Say no to software patents.
    17. Re:Cellphone batteries running out? by Gordonjcp · · Score: 4, Informative

      Well, the microwave oven certainly does shield users from the microwave emissions. But it's not terribly effective outside a certain frequency range.

      The actual cooking area is tuned to the microwave frequency in use - around 2.45GHz. If you operate a microwave with the door open, it won't do you a lot of good, but the radiation *away from the direct "beam" of microwaves* is incredibly weak.

      Now, mobile phones (UK GSM, but others are similar) tend to work around 900MHz for low band, and 1800MHz for high band. It's not really near the resonant frequency of the cooking chamber, so doesn't get absorbed (can you say "Helmholz bottle"?)

      Finally, this is also why mobile phone cell towers are *not* dangerous - a microwave oven uses a very specific frequency, at very high power, from a distance of *inches* to cook food. A cell tower uses a lower frequency, with very low power (often as little as 10w), from much further away...

    18. Re:Cellphone batteries running out? by michajoe · · Score: 1

      Just one problem: When cell phones loose contact to the network, they are usually set up to go into "panic mode" and try to re-gain network access ASAP.

      Problem is: This actually WASTES battery power.

    19. Re:Cellphone batteries running out? by mpe · · Score: 2

      When cell phones loose contact to the network, they are usually set up to go into "panic mode" and try to re-gain network access ASAP.

      The most likely reason for such an interruption is blocking or failure of one cell site. Thus the idea is to recontact a slightly more distant site. Problem here is not only is there a large pile of rubble, but every nearby cell site is off. Because the power grid has been deliberatly shut down.

    20. Re:Cellphone batteries running out? by tomlouie · · Score: 1

      My Garmin Summit GPS can chew through two fresh AA batteries in less than 24 hours. I hardly think that adding a GPS receiver to a cell phone can improve overall battery life.

      And again, cellular signal reception is usually much much better than GPS signal reception in most places.

      A better idea might be to enhance GPS receivers to use cellular signals to triangulate their positions and improve on their performance, but that's a different discussion.

    21. Re:Cellphone batteries running out? by zulux · · Score: 2

      I don't think the cell phone GPS receiver will impact battery life too much. Your nifty Garmin is a 12 channel (or more) receiver and updates itself in all the time - the cell phone GPS receivers will be a small and efficiet single channel receiver and will probably only update themselves during a call and once in a while during non-call opperation.

      I'm whish I had your Summit - I have one of the old clunky Garmin 12's. I rememeber that civilian GPS receivers went nuts during the Gulf war - the military boosted the added error. I wonder if that will happen again soon...

      --

      Moneyed corporations, non-working 'poor' and criminal prisoners are turning productive citizens into tax-slaves.

    22. Re:Cellphone batteries running out? by Ungrounded+Lightning · · Score: 2
      ... mobile phone[s] use waves which are quite close in frequency to microwaves.

      Actually they ARE microwaves - just a different frequency within the same set of bands.

      So how is it possible that the phone can still communicate, even inside the shielding?

      The door to the microwave oven has something called a "choke joint". It works like this:

      The door has a conductive flange around it's edge.

      The oven cavity also has a conductive flange.

      When the door is closed the two flanges are parallel to each other and separated by a layer of plastic. They act as a very good transmission line connecting the inside of the cavity to the outside. But...

      One of the flanges has a slot in it. It's less than a quarter wavelength wide, and exactly a quarter wavelength deep. It's conductive on the sides and bottom.

      A quarter wavelength transmission line acts as an impedence inverter. If the far end is a very good short, the near end is a very good infinite resistance. Each wave goes up the slot, bounces off the end, and comes back to EXACTLY cancel the next half-cycle of the wave.

      The result is that the "choke joint" acts as a perfect open circult in the section of the transmission line formed by the two flanges. Outgoing the signal that goes past the slot is exactly canceled by the signal that bounced off the bottom of the slot. Going back into the cavity the signal that bounced off the discontinuity formed by the slot is ADDED to by the signal that bounced off the bottom of the slot. So the slot forms a perfect mirror, reflecting all the microwave energy back into the oven.

      But it only works for the frequency that it is tuned to - and the tuning is VERY sharp. For virtually any other frequency (except exactly 3, 5, 7, ... times that particular frequency) it just shifts the phase, and all the energy goes right past it. (Well, some goes past it and some goes back. But what goes back, if it doesn't get absorbed, will come out again a few cycles later. Net result is it all comes through.)

      The cancelation is also not perfect if there is any attenuation in the slot - which is why it is covered with plastic, and why you want to keep the mating surfaces of the door very clean. (A little stray food right there can cause a bit of the signal to leak out due to imperfect cancelation.)

      --
      Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
  8. CNN? by michaelo · · Score: 1

    And what about a link to the CNN interview? Or isn't it on the web? J.

    --
    Tongue-tied and twisted, just an earthbound misfit, I.
    1. Re:CNN? by twistah · · Score: 1

      Hey, sorry for no link, but I saw it on the new over a late breakfast. I didn't have much time, so the best I could find was that FEMA link.

    2. Re:CNN? by michaelo · · Score: 1

      np :) If I sounded offening, please excuse me, wasn't intended. But I thought you saw this on the web. (hehe.. i know cnn only from the web. don't have a tv set) Have a nice day, J.

      --
      Tongue-tied and twisted, just an earthbound misfit, I.
    3. Re:CNN? by twistah · · Score: 1

      Nope, you didn't sound offensive, I was just explaining why I didn't have the link. ;)

  9. http://www.markvd.net/ by ShadowsMV · · Score: 1

    http://www.markvd.net/

    --
    This is my sig, there are many like it but this one is mine...
  10. Why didn't they use it earlier? by atam · · Score: 1

    According to news reports earlier in the week, there were indeed quite a few cell phone calls from those people trapped under the rubble. But right now after 4 days, those people would have died due to injuries and lack of water and food. I just wonder, if they have this kind of technology, why didn't they use it earlier?

    1. Re:Why didn't they use it earlier? by twistah · · Score: 1

      Well, the FEMA guy said they have only had the technology "a day or two." Even if they were using it Tuesday, I don't know how much good it did without the toll-free number being publicized by media outlets like CNN.

    2. Re:Why didn't they use it earlier? by IvyMike · · Score: 2

      Unfortunately, it appears that a lot of those reports were rumors; a quick check of recent news finds that most of those reports were unverified. Depressing as hell.

    3. Re:Why didn't they use it earlier? by IvyMike · · Score: 2

      BTW, I'd love it for someone to prove me wrong here. If you have any solid info, please, please, post.

    4. Re:Why didn't they use it earlier? by aka-ed · · Score: 1

      Air.

      They can't live without air.

      --
      I survived the Dick Cheney Presidency 7 to 9 AM 7-21-07
    5. Re:Why didn't they use it earlier? by aka-ed · · Score: 1

      Which reports are you referring to? There's a story at CNET saying that 50-plus wireless signals have come from the rubble since day 0.

      http://news.cnet.com/news/0-1005-200-7191650.htm l

      --
      I survived the Dick Cheney Presidency 7 to 9 AM 7-21-07
    6. Re:Why didn't they use it earlier? by atam · · Score: 1

      Check this story. It described the FEMA used the Radio Frquency Sniffers and that there are over 50 open cases where we have had signals detected at ground zero since the attack.

  11. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 2

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  12. I think they did by smoondog · · Score: 1

    I read a number of news reports earlier in the week. I think /. is just a bit slow on this one.

    :)

    -Sean

  13. Cell Phones Batteries by mgeneral · · Score: 1

    One would hope that those trapped would have realized rescue efforts were going to take several days or more and powered down their cell phones in order to conserve the battery.

    But I suppose that is speculative, at best.

    --

    Goals are deceptive - the unaimed arrow never misses.
  14. Silly question but... by LazyDawg · · Score: 1

    Its been a few days already. How are they going to find signals from phones whose batteries are almost dead, through rock and other signal blockers?

    Most peoples' phones work fine for a couple of days, but unless everyone down there has an extra battery pack or a working charger and plug, their cel phones won't do them much good at all.

    --
    "Look at me, I invented the stove!" -- Ben Franklin
  15. Not just Lucent by CE@UIC · · Score: 2, Informative

    The company I work for is doing the same thing. They haven't done it already because it's never been done before. With CDMA phones it's not as simple as looking for a specific frequency, they have to identify the phone by the code it uses to decode the signal.
    People I work with have been working very hard to modify the basestation software to allow them to search for a particular phone. They are basically strapping a small base station to their back and walking around the rubble.

  16. Well... by Cloud+K · · Score: 1

    It's the usual argument. Which would you rather have - anonymity, or the ability to at least *try* and stop things like the WTC crash from happening?

    I know it seems ridiculous to you Americans, and I'll probably get flamed to oblivion (though that is not the intention.) But if it means even the slightest chance of preventing this kind of thing from happening again, I'd sacrifice some anonymity any day.

    1. Re:Well... by caseydk · · Score: 1
      last time i checked, this technology would NOT make it easier to stop terrorism...

      if it works, it might be easier to track down the phones of the people (if I was told to evacuate, I can't promise that I would grab my phone off my desk)...

      it sounds like the tracking is a great idea, but i'm thinking that it may have already been too late...

      God Bless the fallen and the rescuers...

    2. Re:Well... by dangermouse · · Score: 1
      Well, first, it's worth noting that this technology is being used (at least at the moment) to find people-- or sadly, more likely bodies-- lost in a huge pile of rubble. I haven't seen any discussion of the possible use of cell phone location technology to prevent terrorist attacks... one wonders how it would help, actually.


      Second, it's not anonymity that Americans hold dear so much as the freedom to communicate without fear of repercussion. Freedom of speech and of assembly are guaranteed by our Constitution, and most of us believe those guarantees to have been well-considered. Those two freedoms are critical to the notion of a democratic society.


      Finally, your comments (though I think you perhaps misunderstood the application of the technology, in this instance) do not seem ridiculous too all Americans, especially right now. I had a long, sad debate with a friend of mine on the very subject last night.

    3. Re:Well... by ergo98 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      But if it means even the slightest chance of preventing this kind of thing from happening again, I'd sacrifice some anonymity any day.


      It is incredibly tragic that people are rewriting the bounds of freedoms at a moment of emotional upset (sort of like going grocery shopping when you're hungry): i.e. Western society has done just fine for quite a long time building the best society on the planet, and in a heartbeat people are willing to take it all away because of a single incident (BTW: Seems to me that we could just intrude in that freedom of religion worldwide and suddenly these problems wouldn't exist...you're willing to give that up right?). The reality is that government backdoors in encryption, and tracking for cellphones works to catch one single type of person: Idiots. If I were a criminal I would dream of a cell phone that sent the location (picked up by GPS...triangulation would be tougher but of course with simple relays you could get around that no problem as well. Maybe stick the cell retransmitter on top of a public bus and use it as a relay, ad nauseum) as I'd reverse engineer it to give a location several miles off: Keep the law busy for a while, and as we know law enforcement and intelligence has been FAR too much in love with technology as of late, so you can bet they would sit looking at their screen saying "Damnit he's got to be here! The screen says so! Look again!". It's hilarious that instead of intelligence or physical protective measures (such as secured doors on planes which are so dumbshit obvious that it boggles the mind) people look at the IDIOTIC (I mean mentally deficient. Seriously this gets me in a rage that people and their quest for the illusion of safety can be so god damn stupid) measures such as "Ban MS Flight Simulator!" or "Don't allow Arab men to buy one way tickets!", or "Let carnivore listen to all emails for secret words that'll give away the terrorists!". The illusion of safety, and then everyone can go back to their lives pretending that everything is hunky dory and they're just fine and have nothing to worry about because damnit the government has carnivore, backdoors in encryption that only law abiding people use (oh, also which organized crime uses to get at your information too while you're illusioned into thinking it's secure), and the right to cavity search any random Joe on demand....until the next attack occurs. Then you just have to reduce freedoms more right?

    4. Re:Well... by Shotgun · · Score: 2

      Brings to mind the argument I've been having with my wife. On the day of the attack, some FAA spokesman was on the air proclaiming how well trained the terrorist must have been due to the difficulty of flying such a large plane. My immediate response was, "Bullshit, they just want to inflate the enemy so that they don't look so pathetically insecure." Think about it. If anyone could pull this off this means that we don't have a chance in hell of covering our asses.

      Well, guess what. I've been hearing people who actually fly plane saying how easy this would be. Take off and landing would be hard without the proper training and experience, but aiming at a spot and flying the plane into it would be simple.

      The government types want you to think they can protect you completely, and they want you to hand over all your liberties as payment. The fact is they can't protect you from BinLaden or McFey (don't know the correct spelling of his name). If someone wants to blow something up, they WILL find a way, EVEN in a police state.

      If you don't believe that, then explain how Allies guerilla operations can take out Axis infrastructure (even if only a small amount) during WWII when Germany was a POLICE STATE!!

      --
      Aah, change is good. -- Rafiki
      Yeah, but it ain't easy. -- Simba
  17. Maybe another simple way by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    A working cellphone transmits regularly; how about
    a field meter with a directional antenna?

    1. Re:Maybe another simple way by dgp · · Score: 1

      thank you! people are getting mixed up by thinking they need to interpret the datastream from a phone or that they need the help of a cell tower. It seems a highly directional antenna and a field strength meter would do the trick. Im not sure if an antenna can be made that would be directional enough.

  18. similar technology by man_ls · · Score: 1

    I remember an article on Slashdot quite a long time ago that there was some technology being developed for military use that would detect the electric signals emmitted by a human heart's natural pacemaker. The military application would be to allow soldiers to see targets and members of their own force, even when distinguishing a target using infared or night vision would be difficult.

    Maybe someone has a link to this story? Or more details about the technology? It sounds like it would be useful in a situation like this.

    1. Re:similar technology by sconeu · · Score: 2

      I think you read it in "Rainbow 6", dude!

      --
      General Relativity: Space-time tells matter where to go; Matter tells space-time what shape to be.
    2. Re:similar technology by man_ls · · Score: 1

      Awwwww $^#@, I knew it sounded too sci-fi to be true.

      Yes, I did read Rainbow 6...Guess I got my facts confused.

      Grrrrrr.

    3. Re:similar technology by dragons_flight · · Score: 2

      Some people did try this once upon a time. As it turns out the electrical signal in a heartbeat is so weak that it gets drowned out in the natural background almost immediately. In fact, IIRC, you'd be better off with a directional mic trying to listen for heartbeats (which isn't very good either).

      One of the companies trying to do this stuff did actually develop a device for something like $50,000 but independant testing showed they were essentially a fraud. Whether the device said there was a heartbeat in a particular direction was purely a function of how the operator was holding and using it, and had no relation to actual heartbeats.

      After that fiasco the whole idea pretty much got thrown out.

    4. Re:similar technology by smurfi · · Score: 1

      It gets worse. Timing info can be made pretty accurate across one sphere but doesn't work for triangulation because the phone talks to one base station only.

      So if you really want to find where it is, three or four base stations have to cooperate and intentionally attenuate themselves so that the phone thinks the other is stronger and initiates a hand-over. (That's how it works with GSM phones, anyway.)

      Assuming that the phone even sees three base stations, which is highly unlikely if you're buried under a couple thousand tons of steel and rubble.

  19. Details? by humblecoder · · Score: 2, Interesting
    Does anybody have any details about exactly what this "technology" is? Does it require the cell phone to be on and powered, or can it find cell phones without a charged battery?

    I also heard on CNN that they can use this "technology" with Palm Pilots as well, but they were very sketchy on the details.

    1. Re:Details? by twistah · · Score: 1

      All I know is:

      * It is supplied by Lucent
      * It is being called a "Radio Frequency Sniffer"
      * You must dial the device for it to work, so I imagine the device has to be on
      * It would work with anything with cellular capability, like PalmPilots with cellular modems

    2. Re:Details? by jamus · · Score: 1

      See this comment, which should be modded up. From his description, he works for the same company I do and can verify the details. A few people from my group went to support this, including somebody in the cube next to me. Yes, it would require the cell phone to be on and powered.

    3. Re:Details? by zachlipton · · Score: 1

      It appears from reading the article that what they are planning on doing (they may have started already) is reciving cell phone numbers from friends and family of those missing and calling them. I would think that even if one does not answer the phone, that they can trace the route that the cell network uses to reach the phone. However, this assumes that the phone is on and was not smashed into 500 little pieces in the crash.

      I would guess that it would work with wireless palm pilots such as the palm 7, etc, since those work very similar to a cell phone in this way.

      The purpose of this is not to find out where everyone with a phone is, but if someone calls out from the rubble saying "I'm alive, rescue me!" they can be located. It doesn't do much good to tell the rescuers that you are alive if all you know is that you are at the bottom of a huge pile of rubble.

    4. Re:Details? by jamus · · Score: 1

      There are other reasons why they need the phone number in addition to just trying to call them. See this comment. I wish I had my CDMA book to go into more detail.

    5. Re:Details? by Tungz10 · · Score: 1

      Why don't they just call the phone and listen for it ringing?

    6. Re:Details? by Sabalon · · Score: 2

      I would guess that it would work with wireless palm pilots such as the palm 7, etc, since those work very similar to a cell phone in this way.

      Except the antenna has to be up for it to be on the cellular network, and it is outgoing only, there is no way to initiate a conversation with another palm, other than infrared. The info seems to point to them calling the pagers and cel phones.

  20. Why worry about government tracking? by alienmole · · Score: 2
    That message was written on the assumtion that people would complain about cellphone companies being able to track them. And the point was, who cares if they can track you? They're not really bothered about what kind of black-and-white 30x20 pr0n you're downloading, they're far more bothered about terrorist activity.

    This is an attitude that can only come from someone who has studied very little history, and/or is too young to remember government abuses in the past.

    The problem is that if you don't restrict and control the tools that governments have available to them, they will abuse them. It's human nature - if you were an FBI agent, wouldn't you use whatever tools you had at your disposal to track down bad guys? It's not far from there to doing what Sen. Joseph McCarthy was doing in the 1950s: tracking down people engaging in "un-American activities", the kind of term which of course is defined by whatever over-zealous government official is conducting such investigations.

    There are countless cases of over-zealousness of prosecutors, police, and other officials, and to an extent, that's the way we want it - but that's exactly why there are laws and structures to keep these people in check, and to make sure they don't harrass people who are considered by law to be "innocent until proven guilty".

    It might seem to make sense to give the government more leeway in this time of crisis, but even if it does make sense, any extra powers granted to them should be temporary, and only usable in pursuing terrorist activity. Otherwise, the terrorists will win in a much bigger way than they have already: they'll succeed in making the United States a place where the government abridges its citizens' freedoms, a place where many citizens may end up with good reasons to fear their government.

    1. Re:Why worry about government tracking? by ergo98 · · Score: 2

      The problem is that if you don't restrict and control the tools that governments have available to them, they will abuse them. It's human nature - if you were an FBI agent, wouldn't you use whatever tools you had at your disposal to track down bad guys? It's not far from there to doing what Sen. Joseph McCarthy was doing in the 1950s: tracking down people engaging in "un-American activities", the kind of term which of course is defined by whatever over-zealous government official is conducting such investigations.


      On top of that there is a presumption that this information is only in the hands of the government who of course is only looking out for society. In reality almost every facet of information collection has been infiltrated by organized crime, so the irony is that criminal organizations often make better use of this information than law enforcement does. It just takes one plant at the tracking office, running the databases, etc., and suddenly all of this information is in the hands that you least want it. It's amazing that people never see this until it's too late though. People are generally morons when it comes to privacy though : "Duh I'd give up my freedoms to prevent this from happening!" Sure you would...today. But tomorrow when robots are jamming cameras up your ass and you're put in jail for thought crime or because a relative did something bad you may rethink that.

    2. Re:Why worry about government tracking? by mpe · · Score: 2

      It's human nature - if you were an FBI agent, wouldn't you use whatever tools you had at your disposal to track down bad guys? It's not far from there to doing what Sen. Joseph McCarthy was doing in the 1950s: tracking down people engaging in "un-American activities", the kind of term which of course is defined by whatever over-zealous government official is conducting such investigations.

      But even worst you have a combination of harrasment and ignoring the real "bad guys". i.e. for decades the FBI systematically ignored the Mafia...

    3. Re:Why worry about government tracking? by alienmole · · Score: 2
      Good point - if you make it easy for law enforcement to discover crimes (however petty) by arbitrary citizens, by checking on their activities for no good reason, you create easy pickings for law enforcement, distracting them from the real, more difficult, problems.

    4. Re:Why worry about government tracking? by alienmole · · Score: 2
      People are generally morons when it comes to privacy though : "Duh I'd give up my freedoms to prevent this from happening!" Sure you would...today.

      It seems to me that a whole lot of what goes wrong in politics is simply this short-sighted (a.k.a. kneejerk) thinking. The problem is that people who have an agenda can take advantage of this tendency, and it's much easier for them to do this to get what they want, than to actually try to explain or discuss issues in depth. The electorate is thus encouraged (trained!) to think this way.

      But tomorrow when robots are jamming cameras up your ass

      Per article XIV, section 5 of the Hatch/Lott privacy bill of 2003, it will be the patriotic duty of all Americans to submit to said camera-jamming. All in the interests of national security, of course - you do want national security, don't you? Of course you do. Now bend over, please...

    5. Re:Why worry about government tracking? by mpe · · Score: 2

      if you make it easy for law enforcement to discover crimes (however petty) by arbitrary citizens, by checking on their activities for no good reason, you create easy pickings for law enforcement, distracting them from the real, more difficult, problems.

      Especially if you turn law enforcement into a "numbers game" where such things numbers of people arrested is seen as some kind of perfomance indicator...

    6. Re:Why worry about government tracking? by Fastolfe · · Score: 2

      I say absolutely restrict and control the tools. Useful technologies like this do have enormous privacy implications. This is why wiretaps and the like require court orders, and why evidence obtained from illegal wiretaps is inadmissable as evidence.

      Similarly, technologies allowing the tracking of civilian devices like this should, and (obviously) will or do in cases where they already exist.

      If you're talking about banning this technology outright, preventing its use even in cases of justified need or court order, that I think is going too far.

      If court orders or warrants are insufficient in your eyes to control the access or use of technologies such as this, it sounds more like you have some trust issues with your local authorities. If your local government and law enforcement is untrustworthy, it is your duty to replace them.

      Maybe you should bring up these issues at your next city council meeting.

    7. Re:Why worry about government tracking? by alienmole · · Score: 1
      If you're talking about banning this technology outright, preventing its use even in cases of justified need or court order, that I think is going too far.

      My post was written in response to someone who said: "who cares if they can track you? They're not really bothered about what kind of black-and-white 30x20 pr0n you're downloading, they're far more bothered about terrorist activity." I'm more concerned about attitudes like that than I am about any actual threat of cellphones being tracked with current technology.

      Maybe you should bring up these issues at your next city council meeting.

      If the problem were more immediate, I might, if I lived in a city. Our town council wouldn't know what to make of the subject. One member of our board of education recently proposed deferring computer purchases, because nanotechnology was soon going to make all the school system's computers obsolete.

  21. Not that difficult by paugq · · Score: 1

    I'm a Spanish Telecommunications Engineer.

    I know of cell-phone technologies. And I think it's not difficult to locate a cell-phone if you the base-station can receive signal from it.

    For those who don't know how this works, here is a brief explanation: I have a cell-phone ("mobile terminal", MT) and I'm sending signal to a base-station (BS), and the BS says to my MT how much power it has to use and how long before its time slot has to send the signal. Knowing the power and the time, it's easy to locate a cell-phone using at least data from three base-stations (yes, you have to use triangulation).

    I think it's not that difficult. In fact, it's easy and the police uses this approach to locate people. Israel even uses this way to kill terrorists (or potential terrorists).

    --
    Pau Garcia i Quiles
    Enginyer Tècnic de Telecomunicacions, esp. Telemàtica
    Download the Linux Kernel 2.4.0 Poster now! (PDF)

  22. Call Center by ghasty · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I've actually been at the Wireless Emergency Response call center most of the morning and am scheduled to go back 3am Monday. Yes, it may not be a good chance...but it's still a chance. You can still hear the horror in people's voices. Being in Georgia we've been so removed from the victums and family...being at the call center really brings it home...

  23. Holy 'Titanic' reprecussions by hypreal · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I do hate to say this, but a travisty of this magnitute will have some positive outcomes. Weither it be search and resuce tech and procedure, building arcitecture, or just plain people looking over their shoulder, this was necessacary for humanity to experience even though it blows. Look at the Titanic. Because of that, regulations were created to make sea travel safe.

    --
    = They say "guns don't kill people, people kill people", but I think the gun helps. -Eddie Izzard =
  24. Re:People might still be alive. by notNeilCasey · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I was just in that basement area this past Sunday. It is the connection between the Church St. Subway Station and the PATH train to NJ and is better described as a nice train station rather than as a basement. There are several restaurants, a Borders Book Store, and various other things. It's like a small stretch of a shopping mall. I heard on the news that they are considering using the PATH tunnels to try to get people. In other news, though, my cell phone has never had any service down there.

  25. Now We All Know How Arthur Dent Felt by istartedi · · Score: 2, Offtopic

    Last night I dug up this passage from Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy and typed it in:

    The Earth.

    Visions of it swam sickeningly through his nauseated mind. There was no way his imagination could feel the impact of the whole Earth having gone, it was too big. He prodded his feelings by thinking that his parents and his sister had gone. No reaction. He thought of all the people he had been close to. No reaction. Then he thought of a complete stranger he had been standing behind in the queue at the supermarket two days before and felt a sudden stab--the supermarket was gone, everything in it was gone. Nelson's Column had gone! Nelson's Column had gone and there would be no outcry, because there was no one left to make an outcry. From now on Nelson's Column only existed in his mind. England only existed in his mind--his mind, stuck here in this dank smelly steel-lined spaceship. A wave of claustraphobia closed in on him.

    England no longer existed. He'd got that--somehow he'd got it. He tried again. America, he thought, has gone. He couldn't grasp it. He decided to start smaller again. New York was gone. No reaction. He'd never seriously believed it existed anyway. The dollar, he thought, has sunk forever. Slight tremor there. Every Bogart movie has been wiped, he said to himself, and that gave him a nasty knock. McDonald's, he thought. There is no longer any such thing as a McDonald's hamburger.

    He passed out. When he came round a second later he found he was sobbing for his mother.

    Of course, Dent's thoughts were of complete and utter physical destruction of the entire planet. However, the comparison is not totally unjustified since many of us feel that the entire culture of the world has changed in an irreversable way. In a sense, the old Earth is gone.

    --
    For all intensive purposes, "whom" is no longer a word. That begs the question, "who cares"?
    1. Re:Now We All Know How Arthur Dent Felt by KlomDark · · Score: 2
      The term "Do you know where your towel is" sure takes on a different meaning when you ask Osama Bin Laden about it.


      A cool article about the WTC thing and what YOU can do about it to help.

  26. Re:Stone Age by flufffy · · Score: 1
    interesting short commentary on salon about this, at

    http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2001/09/14/afgha nistan/index.html.

    here's the lead:

    An Afghan-American speaks
    You can't bomb us back into the Stone Age. We're already there. But you can start a new world war, and that's exactly what Osama bin Laden wants.

    By Tamim Ansary

  27. Um... Receivers wouldn't send out a signal... by Mustang+Matt · · Score: 2

    A receiver would only tell the cell phone carrier where they were, it wouldn't tell the person on the other end of the line where they were.

    With the current situation this would do no good. The survivors already know they are under a pile of rubble. GPS won't shed any new light for them.

    --
    The man who trades freedom for security does not deserve nor will he ever receive either. - Benjamin Franklin
  28. Multiple ways to find a cell phone/pager. by Above · · Score: 2, Informative

    There are multiple ways to locate a cell phone or pager, and I suspect they will use all of them. Some have already mentioned GPS, that's rare to non-existant in today's devices. More likely are triangulation, or simple signal strength.

    Several cell providers have been using triangulation to work towards the E911 requirements. Rather than implement expensive GPS solutions, they simply track a phone from multiple antennas, and triangulate the location of the phone from that. While normal accuracy is only +- a quarter mile, in an instance like this local portable cells could bet set up around the site and generate high accuracy.

    Even if that can't be done, making a cell phone talk to the cell site (telling it to reregister, for instance) would allow you to listen for its signal with a strength meter. Walk away it reduces, walk towards it gets stronger. In a relatively small area like this it would work well.

    Of course, there is also low tech. If they ring the phones, and make the area quiet, they can hear them ring. For those very near the surface this could be particularly effective.

    Others have commented on batteries. Many cell phones are probably running low, but I would venture about 1/3 of today's phones last a week on standby, and would still be able to ring. Two way pagers and other communications devices often last longer, two weeks or more at a go. They could still have a huge number of these devices active. That said, they need to be careful. Ringing them too much will run out batteries.

    I wish them luck, it's a good idea.

    1. Re:Multiple ways to find a cell phone/pager. by vrmlknight · · Score: 1

      I mean this as an real question not as a smart ass or anything else how do you find a pager? w/ pagers the tower send and the pager gets no sending just getting???

      --
      This must be Thursday, I never could get the hang of Thursdays.
    2. Re:Multiple ways to find a cell phone/pager. by Zero__Kelvin · · Score: 1


      And none of them work without a plentiful stream of electrons to the phone itself ... so given that we are four+ days into this thing ... why is this informative again?

      And of course, anybody who has ever read "Takedown: blah blah blah Tsitsomu Shimomura" or whatever the title was knows, any cell phone becomes a "triangulation device" with a few Firmware mods at most, and sometimes by just entering a backdoor password. So again I ask ... why is this misinformation "informative"?

      --
      Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
    3. Re:Multiple ways to find a cell phone/pager. by MattBurke · · Score: 1

      Ahh, but I imagine the loved ones of anyone trapped in the rubble would be panic-stricken and trying to call their mobile a silly amount of times...

  29. To clarify on "being used to find survivors" by SMN · · Score: 5, Insightful
    After seeing this on CNN and reading an article linked to by Drudge, it would appear that the purpose of this isn't what it might appear to be at first. Some quick posters appear to think that it's being used to locate survivors within the rubble. As one poster pointed out, it simply isn't precise enought to pinpoint where in the debris the phone is, and it's particularly inaccurate at finding out how deep the phone is buried (ie, how "high" it is).

    Instead, they're only trying to get a very general location of the phones, to determine whether they're at "Ground Zero" or not. If not, they could potentially be used to find if somebody's at a hospital in a coma, or if they somehow got out of NYC in time and for some reason haven't been able to contact someone.

    These phones aren't really being used to locate the survivors, they're being used to gain some clue as to whether a person is buried, or might have survived. It won't do a great job of locating people, but it will help discriminate if a person is "likely dead" or "might have gotten away."

    I also heard that no actual calls have to be made to trace a phone's location, but I'd guess that it must at least be turned on and able to receive a call. And yes, as many posters have said, batteries are going to be a problem this many days later. But any more information on what happened to these people will surely be welcomed by their families.

    --
    -- Imagine how much more advanced our technology would be if we had eight fingers per hand.
    1. Re:To clarify on "being used to find survivors" by VertigoAce · · Score: 1

      This is what I gathered from their website as well. It's not very clearly written, but this quote seems to match what you're saying:

      "Based on sophisticated monitoring of cellular network activity, the team has been able to determine that numerous reports could not possibly be from the Ground Zero site, and have thus helped avoiding putting rescue workers at risk."

      I don't really see how it avoids putting them at risk, though. The rescue workers still have to search for everyone else, just as blindly as before. It should be of more immediate use to relatives, as you suggested, for finding out if someone made it out, but was severely injured to the point where no identification could be made.

      -Sean

    2. Re:To clarify on "being used to find survivors" by SMN · · Score: 2
      "Based on sophisticated monitoring of cellular network activity, the team has been able to determine that numerous reports could not possibly be from the Ground Zero site, and have thus helped avoiding putting rescue workers at risk."
      After staring at that for several minutes, I think I understand what they mean. It seems that people were essentially making prank 911 calls, claiming to be alive and trapped under what's left of the building. I know that there supposedly calls from people claiming to be trapped in the basement Tuesday night, and Mayor Guiliani confirmed that then. It would not appear those were prank calls.

      Even though calls were coming in, no cell phone activity was picked up from Ground Zero. They therefore knew these were prank calls, and didn't risk lives in attempting a more aggressive dig to reach "survivors" in time.

      I don't think I would have ever even imagined people doing something that low, had I not seen prank bomb threats called in the next day. Those people are the ones who deserve to be buried alive under thousands of tons of concrete.

      --
      -- Imagine how much more advanced our technology would be if we had eight fingers per hand.
    3. Re:To clarify on "being used to find survivors" by unitron · · Score: 2
      "I don't think I would have ever even imagined people doing something that low, had I not seen prank bomb threats called in the next day. Those people are the ones who deserve to be buried alive under thousands of tons of concrete."

      Better yet, sent to an alternate universe where Osama bin Laden rules the kind of world he has in mind.

      --

      I see even classic Slashdot is now pretty much unusable on dial up anymore.

    4. Re:To clarify on "being used to find survivors" by mpe · · Score: 2

      As one poster pointed out, it simply isn't precise enought to pinpoint where in the debris the phone is, and it's particularly inaccurate at finding out how deep the phone is buried (ie, how "high" it is).

      You can't do this simply because you don't know exactly which bits of rubble are where in a pile of rubble, thus you have unknown attenuation of signal.

      I also heard that no actual calls have to be made to trace a phone's location, but I'd guess that it must at least be turned on and able to receive a call.

      Cell phones periodically attempt to register with a base site whilst they are switched on, regardless of if any calls are being attempted.

    5. Re:To clarify on "being used to find survivors" by geschild · · Score: 1

      Over here in Europe where we at least _think_ privacy is a right still, the base-stations for our standard of cell-phone (GSM) keeps record of what phone was in its vicinity. Phone companies can therefore tell about a cell-phone's whereabouts quite accuratly (and therefore a persons whereabouts). To make it more interesting, this 'feature/bug' has been used by law-enforcement to trace people believed criminal and as evidence that someone made a call while driving and causing an accident.

      I would suspect this trick is being used by US phone compies as well. It may be a far better way of tracing burried phones or would it?

      Just a few thoughts.

      --
      Karma? What's that again?
  30. I hope it works... but no too sure. by burtonator · · Score: 1

    OK.. I REALLY hope this works... but something tells me that the odds are VERY low :(

    - It has been about 4 days since these phones have been charged. If someone alive is unconscious they probably didn't try to conserve battery life. Hence the phone doesn't have power. About 50% of modern phones can last over 4 days (mine can last a week) so there is still some hope here.

    - If (hopefully) its owner *is* alive, he/she probably tried to dial out (and obviously failed because they would have been rescued). If they were smart they would try to turn off the phone to conserve battery life. When the rescuers try to dial the number it would go right to voice mail.

    I hope I am wrong...

    Kevin

  31. body-sniffing dogs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    Not a bad idea, although as others have said, a lot of batteries are dead by now.

    I heard on the news that some body-sniffing dogs are now being employed with success. At this point, this may be a better lower tech solution.

    Something of a morbid subject, still...

  32. alternative? by oni · · Score: 1

    What about cooperating with the other Arab states?
    We kill the Taliban then you guys split up the country or administer it or whatever you want. The US is happy because OBL is gone. These other Arab states would presumably be happy for the chance to improve the lives of their fellow Arabs.

  33. Re:Stone Age by JAVAC+THE+GREAT · · Score: 1
    Well, the article says what is needed is a ground-troop assault, which will undoubtedly occur, and the article says:

    Because to get any troops to Afghanistan, we'd have to go through Pakistan. Would they let us? Not likely.

    And Pakistan has already agreed to let us through. Really, does the author think they are the only person who knows anything?
  34. It's a good thing everyone carries a charger! by Zero__Kelvin · · Score: 1


    Did anyone even stop for a *MOMENT* to think? Today is Saturday ... days after the event. Anybody know of a cell phone battery that lasts anywhere near that long? OK, sure, they are hoping someone has turned theirs off, and will turn it back on. Every effort is worthwhile I suppose. But still ...

    --
    Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
  35. Re:Nokia 5165: Eight Days of Power by ogre2112 · · Score: 1

    Yep, same here. I have a Qualcomm 2100. WOuld've gotten a Nokia but you can't with sprint PCS. Oh well.

  36. US Embassy in Ottawa (Canda) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    I have placed images of outside the US Embassy in Ottawa, Ontario in Canada. Canadians have been placing various momentos, and memorial offerings along the outer fence. Feel free to repost this URL wherever appropriate...

    http://207.198.90.123/Memorial/index.html

    -kilk

  37. Re:Stone Age by flufffy · · Score: 1
    pakistan has agreed to something.

    narrowly, as far as i know (from watching bbc streams), pakistan has agreed only to the terms of a u.n. security council resolution. although i don't know what this says it is unlikely to be a complete rubber stamp of u.s. wishes. thus overflies and/or use of pakistan air basese are probably allowed. launching a ground invasion, like desert storm is probably not, (yet).

    but i think the more general point of the piece -- that obl wants to provoke massive retaliation as a prequel to more moves on his part -- is worth considering.

    taking into account the highly complex and sophisticated nature of the plot so far -- one that has been years in the planning, apparently -- it would be foolish to not at least entertain the notion that provoking retaliation isn't part of the wider game plan.

  38. Noise triangulation... by zulux · · Score: 4, Insightful

    If you could get a cell phone to answer a special emergency incomming call, and if you could place a cell tower close to the site - you could do a triangulation of the vicem by setting up three loude noise makers spaced far appart. Each would trigger in sequece, and a triangulation could be made by determining how long the cellphone took to hear the noise. This would allow rescue workers to fin the locations of the phone - even if the GPS signal can't get to the phone, the noise could.

    --

    Moneyed corporations, non-working 'poor' and criminal prisoners are turning productive citizens into tax-slaves.

    1. Re:Noise triangulation... by SMN · · Score: 2

      The problem is depth. Triangulation typically works because there is only one unique point that is X units away from location A, Y units away from location B, and Z units from location C in two dimensions. I'd guess that you could set up more "noise makers", possibly at different heights, and this might work in theory -- but in practice, I think it's unfortunately too far-fetched.

      --
      -- Imagine how much more advanced our technology would be if we had eight fingers per hand.
    2. Re:Noise triangulation... by aozilla · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Triangulation works in three dimensions. Two spheres intersect in a circle, three spheres (a circle and a sphere) intersect at two points. One of the two points is generally an impossible answer (too high, for instance). This is how GPS works, with three satellites (although it is more accurate with four).

      --
      ok then your [sic] infringing on my copyright! Could you as [sic] me next time before STEALING my comments for your own?
    3. Re:Noise triangulation... by perlfish · · Score: 1

      If you could get a cell phone to answer a special emergency incomming call...

      This sounds something akin to the "infinity transmitter", the technique of silencing the ringer on a phone so that it becomes a listening device for the person who is calling. Yours is a great concept but the privacy concerns and potential for (government) abuse bothers me too much.

      --
      I smell a wumpus! [S]hoot or [M]ove ->
  39. "Arab" states? by Gorimek · · Score: 1

    Dude, neither Afghanistan, nor any of the surrounding states have any significant Arab population at all.

    You really should learn something about the world before you start mouthing off about how best to rule and slaughter it.

  40. Re:Stone Age by aka-ed · · Score: 1

    Thank you for that link.

    Ansary's little essay rings with more truth than can be found in a ton of the knee-jerk verbiage flowing out of the media.

    --
    I survived the Dick Cheney Presidency 7 to 9 AM 7-21-07
  41. When it's time to settle the score... by Picass0 · · Score: 1, Offtopic

    I think what needs to happen when we go after Osama Bin Laden is we need to fill a bunch of bombers up with wreckage from the World Trade Center and drop it on his ass.

    Bin Laden tried once before to bomb the WTC. He obviously is very intested it seeing the World Trade Center up close. We should oblige him.

    After all, we dropped Saddam's limo on Bagdad.

  42. Yeah, Arab states by oni · · Score: 1

    Dude, neither Afghanistan, nor any of the surrounding states have any significant Arab population at all.

    Arabia is just the peninsula and not the surrounding area. You got me "dude". That's one point for you. Congratulations.

    Your correction however is irrelevant. Let me help you stay focused on the following fact. The US is going to retaliate and people are going to die. This particular thread is about what can be done to limit the destruction by removing the incentive for the survivors to grow up to become terrorists. What I suggest is rebuilding the country or countries that will be destroyed. This seems to have worked well for Germany and Japan. It may not work well in the Middle East because there is so much resentment of the US there. What I suggest is turning over reconstruction to the Arab states - Saudi Arabia for example.

    Somehow I doubt you'll have anything intelligent to add but I invite you to surprise me.

    1. Re:Yeah, Arab states by Gorimek · · Score: 2

      Actually the Arabs are a people that originated in the peninsula, but has spread much further. They occupy Africa north of the Sahara and the arabian peninsula including most of Iraq. Turkey and Iran are non arab states, despite being moslem and somehow also find moustashes cool. There are plenty of christian arabs, especially around Israel. But I digress.

      I hope no countries will be destroyed, so I'm not so concerned about how best to rebuild them later. Why the Saudis would be interested in cleaning up that mess, I have no idea.

      In the case of Afhganistan, it's already pretty much as destroyed as it can be. If we somehow could get a halfway decent government installed that brought peace there, and gave'em a few $B to clean up the place, I suspect we'd have a very friendly Afganistan for a long time. That's easier said than done, though.

      Anyway, I just wanted to nail you for ingorance. Mission accomplished. Maybe it was a bit silly, but it felt good.

    2. Re:Yeah, Arab states by dun0s · · Score: 1

      There was a very good news article by BBC World Affairs Editor John Simpson on the BBC website covering very much what you just stated:

      http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/from_our_ow n_correspondent/newsid_1544000/1544749.stm

      Which could be of interest.

  43. evil bastards by bobalu · · Score: 1

    Hmm, well glad to hear it. I worked for 'em for 10 weeks. They were completely unethical bastards. Hired me for a 5 month contract, which turned out to be really 4 months, then pressured me to go on full-time at half my consulting rate. When I didn't take the deal they fired me, then used my 10 weeks of work to fulfill 1 yr contract with the NSA.

    Nice, real nice.

    --
    The revolution will NOT be televised.
  44. no, not by gov. by bobalu · · Score: 1

    No, they were in a position to do that if it had gotten any farther but it went down instead. The passengers found out about the WTC via cell-hone and apparently decided that if they were going to die they'd go out on their own terms.

    --
    The revolution will NOT be televised.
  45. Amazing New American Superweapons by Mike+Schiraldi · · Score: 2

    This is an incredible story about some of the amazing new military technology we've got.

    We'll need it, too, if this guy is right. It's a well-written essay.

    1. Re:Amazing New American Superweapons by smurfi · · Score: 1
      Rain? A heavy cloud cover? A bunch of low-tech guerilla fighters suddenly appear from the mist, lob a few grenades or low-tech shells at your base, vanish again, and your super-gun hasn't even booted up its internal computer. Meanwhile, all your high-tech spying equipment is of no use whatsoever because it can't see anything. And no, infrared isn't going to help you here.

      Guess what the weather'll be like in Afghanistan in the next few months.

      Intelligence is more than technology, and wars aren't decided just by having superior hardware. Didn't somebody learn anything from Vietnam?

  46. Re:Stone Age by Sabalon · · Score: 2

    According to CNN/Yahoo, Colin Powell basically got them to agree to cooperate with any "reply" to terrorist efforts...in other words, roll your tanks and fly your planes over the country.

  47. Re:dude by jrockway · · Score: 1

    > for the love of God, change your .sig As good as done sir. It's not quite appropriate as it was. (It came from a newspaper article about a house lit on fire by a sparkler)

    --
    My other car is first.
  48. Digital phones outlast analog ones. by mbauser2 · · Score: 1

    Two factors affect phone battery life that I haven't seen mentioned here yet, so I'll inject them here. (I used to have a job selling Sprint and AT&T cell phones, so I learned more of this than normal people want to know.)

    1) Part of it is just the age of your phone. Newer phones have more efficient power saving systems. No great surprise there.

    2) Many newer phones (and virtually all the cheap ones that some phone companies give to new customers) only use digital cell networks. Phones using all-digital networks need less power than analog cell phones. Given the same amount of stored energy in a battery, the digital phone often lasts twice as long as the analog one.

    It sounds like zulux has a dual-mode phone (as do I). When a dual-mode phone loses its connection to the digital cell towers (which are still rather rare outside cities), it switches to analog (and drains its battery faster). If it can't get a good signal at all, it then switches to power-save mode. Dual-mode phones thus have wider coverage areas than all digital phones, at the cost of a shorter battery life outside urban areas.

    (Incidentally, many dual-mode phones allow the user to deactivate mode switching, so it's all or nothing. This is useful in those freak zones where you're too close to an analog tower, and the phones switches modes when it doesn't need to.)

    Summing up my rambling:

    1) Analog phones (which are fairly rare nowadays) buried in the WTC rubble are almost certainly out of juice. Two or three days is about it for analog phones.

    2) Digital and dual-mode phones might still have juice, depending on the obvious variables like battery capacity, power-saving technology, and whether the phones are wasting juice trying to connect to the analog network.

    3) It's always a good idea to keep your phone batteries fully charged, and it's OK to splurge and buy the extra long-life batteries, if that's an option for your phone.

    This has been a public service annoucement from your friendly neighborhood ex-phone salesman.

    --
    Proud to be / Smiley-free / Since Nineteen / Ninety-Three
  49. slightly offtopic, i know.. by an+ominous+cow+ward · · Score: 1

    but i'd just like to say - in this week of praying, candle burning, and flag waving - if you'd really like to "do something", here are a few suggestions:

    1. buy or check out a book on the middle east, american foreign policy, islam, terrorism, the history of afghanistan/arabic nations, or other relevant topics. intelligence and rational thinking will be our greatest weapons in this new "war".

    2. turn off the major networks, and listen to npr or the bbc, use the internet, and read diverse newspapers. stop getting all of your information from the "gatekeepers". realize that all media could have potential biases and hidden agendas, so get information from as many different sources as possible.

    3. think for yourself; really think, don't just react. use logic, but never forget how you felt on 9/11.

    4. pay attention to what your government is doing. this is more important than ever. it's shocking, but true: at this moment our government is attempting use these attacks to push through highly questionable legislation. capital gains taxes and carnivore should not be discussed on the heels of this crises, while emotions are running high. no matter your opinion, force your congressmen to cool their jets before making any more major decisions.

    5. have dinner table discussions with your friends and family. talk with arab-americans about their experiences. talk about real issues, not just lurid details and rumours. keep an open mind. encourage those around you to think rationally.

    america must become the nation we are supposed to be: a just nation founded on independent spirit and free thought, not fear, hatred and ignorance. i refuse to say that ignorance on the part of americans is responsible for this attack, but it is to blame for the hostile attitude of foreign citizens (still, notice how the news has connsistently shown the same scant footage of celebration, with just a few people participating in each case). arrogance and ignorance are to blame for our failure to prevent this attack, and we can no longer think of ourselves as isolated or invincible.

  50. It's not the batteries that are the problem. by MsWillow · · Score: 1

    Granted, battery life on cell phones and pagers is an issue, but...

    Don't these devices also use a crystal-based signal from which to run? Those little quartz devices are not immune to shock, by any means. I'd even hazard to guess that falling a hundred stories, let alone having a hundred stories' worth os rubble fall on them, is very likely to render the crystals inoperative.

    Still, some units may have remained functional. Here's hoping they find some people with this approach, tho I suspect that even a well-designed unit would have been pounded unto dust with the collapse :(

    --

    Lemon curry?
  51. Re:Need to know - Wednesday plane downing? by unitron · · Score: 2
    Actually the reports are that fighter planes were scrambled but were still 70 miles away when the airliners hit. Probably the fighters had been sent up to investigate after air traffic controllers had figured out that something was wrong, but at that point the real purpose of the hijackings probably wasn't known or suspected.

    By the time enough red tape had been cut through to get permission or instructions to the fighters to actually shoot down a civilian airliner it would probably have been too late even if the fighters had already been circling the towers and the Pentagon.

    I'd like to hear if anything more came of reports mentioned once or twice late Tuesday/early Wednesday that some witnesses reported a smaller plane following the one that hit the Pentagon.

    Perhaps someone who knows more about airplanes than do I could offer an opinion as to whether a fight over the controls of the plane that crashed in Pennsylvania or some deliberate sabotage by the airline's pilot or other aircrew member could have resulted in damage of some sort to the wing that would have sent it plummeting to the ground without any need for outside intervention?

    --

    I see even classic Slashdot is now pretty much unusable on dial up anymore.

  52. Am I the only one... by Teferi · · Score: 2

    ...who reflexively twitched at the naming of FEMA?

    Too much Deus Ex, I guess...

    --
    -- Veni, vidi, dormivi
  53. Logistics problems by gusnz · · Score: 1

    Who is to say that survivors had their cellphones on them? If a building in which you were residing got hit by a plane and started to burn, would you want to get out first and buy a new cellphone later, or waste time finding your existing phone?

    Perhaps all this would achieve, even if it was accurate enough, would be to find a whole load of lost phones amongst the rubble. Potentially, this could also confuse the situation as some of the owners may have escaped safely.

  54. PETITION - MODERATE UP! by elastica · · Score: 1

    please sign. Slashdotters are a large majority that could help something like this. HREF="http://www.actionagenda.com/petitions/

  55. Re:Genesis 11, 1-9: The tower of Babel by mrfiddlehead · · Score: 1
    Your, apparently pointless, post is noted, although I was just thinking this morning that a more appropriate reference would be that of Lot's wife turning to stone when they fled Sodom.
    • "Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed. In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back. Remember Lot's wife." Luke 17:28-32.
    Of course, the religious trot out these old stories whenever something horrible happens and point out that it is the end of days etc, etc, bla, bla, bla.

    If there's a god then I don't want to know him, cause he's a jerk.

    --
    :wq
  56. Why not use infrared cameras? by jeffreydaly · · Score: 1

    It would seem to me that one of those infrared cameras would be perfect here. Although they can pick up heat through walls, I don't know how they would do with the massive amounts of concrete and steel that must be at the site.

    Can anyone think of a reason why an infrared camera wouldn't work?

  57. Re:People might still be alive. by mrfiddlehead · · Score: 1
    It would be really fucked up if they were down there, and they were watching it all unfold on CNNBSABC.

    I waver back and forth between there being absolutely no chance for those caught underground, and this scenario where they're living in a pocket of an underground city. The reality, I fear, is that the amount of debris, as well as ruptured gas and water mains would have made that part of the building pretty well uninhabitable.

    --
    :wq
  58. Re:Could any mod explain to me... by istartedi · · Score: 2

    If anybody found it offensive I offer my deepest, sincerest apologies.

    --
    For all intensive purposes, "whom" is no longer a word. That begs the question, "who cares"?
  59. Battery Life by PhoenxHwk · · Score: 1

    Shouldn't battery life of a cell phone be a concern here? Even the best ones have lives of only a few days in non-talk mode. By the time this story hit, it had already been 5 days, so the chances of success seem somewhat low. This is still a good idea, regardless.

  60. Expanded wiretap legislation already passed (U.S.) by FrankHaynes · · Score: 1

    As I flipped across C-SPAN 2 the other night (yes, there actually was *ONE* channel not showing the same thing over and over), Senator Leahy (D-Vermont) was questioning an amendment to S.149, an appropriations bill, that he thought would greatly relax the requirements for getting a 'wiretap' order.

    I'm pretty sure this appropriations bill sought money for the immediate crisis, even though it was reported out of committee back in July.

    Leahy kept harping on the provision that any 'law enforcement or other authority' simply needed to certify to a judge that the monitoring was necessary. Of course, that old windbag Orrin Hatch took great umbrage at this questioning of the amendment in this time of dire straits, and how dare Leahy suggest that this might be overreaching by the government! Leahy wasn't particularly clear and Hatch made it sound like there was nothing in the amendment that didn't already exist in current law; but, then why would they need an amendment if there were no difference?

    It all sounded like an opportunistic attempt (that passed) to seek an expansion of government wiretapping abilities.

    This debate was either Friday or maybe Thursday evening and the amendment passed.

    Beware.

    --
    slashdot: A failed experiment.
  61. OT Re:Need to know - Wednesday plane downing? by theNAM666 · · Score: 2
    the reports are that fighter planes were scrambled but were still 70 miles away when the airliners hit.

    Do you have a source for this? I haven't seen it reported... FBI had reported that it knew the planes had been hijacked, but "since these sorts of events normally end peacefully" it hadn't taken any action.

    Probably the fighters had been sent up to investigate after air traffic controllers had figured out that something was wrong, but at that point the real purpose of the hijackings probably wasn't known or suspected.

    Probably not suspected... flights had been off course and not hailing for 30 minutes, so were assumed hijacked, but it's hard to believe anything was responding. An in-flight F-16 would probably be cruising at 5-600mph, and could reach 1400mph within 15-20 seconds, meaning that "70 miles away" would have been 3 1/2 minutes away. At that distance, air-to-air missles would have been possible, and after the first tower had been hit, there would have been some discussion of this option. Recent reports from Cheney indicate that it wasn't discussed until after the Pentagon was hit.

    However, there were nearly 16 minutes between the WTC impacts. It is plausible that an already airborne military craft would have made it to the vicinity in time for the second attact, but nothing off the ground would have been able to get there... it takes 10-15 minutes to scramble a plane up from strip alert, and we didn't have any sitting on alert at the time...

    an opinion as to whether a fight over the controls of the plane that crashed in Pennsylvania or some deliberate sabotage by the airline's pilot or other aircrew member could have resulted in damage of some sort to the wing that would have sent it plummeting to the ground

    Flight 93 hit the ground at over 500mph, indicating that it was under power and, likely, undamaged. While the flight crew was likely to know how to cause enought damage -- even from outside the cabin -- to down the plane, this suggests that there was a stuggle for the cabin. As well, keep in mind that there were calls from the plane -- including Barbara Olson's call to her husband -- within five minutes of the downing. None of these calls to my knowledge reported damage to the craft.

  62. A simpler method by Ungrounded+Lightning · · Score: 2

    If you could get a cell phone to answer a special emergency incomming call,

    You can. As part of the process of connecting a call the cell towers send a message to the phone, asking it to tell them where it is ("Joe, can you hear me?"). The phone responds with a short transmission ("I'm Joe and I hear you!"), and the cell towers that hear the response can measure the signal quality and decide which one has the best signal path to the phone. Then THAT one places the call. If none have an adequate signal the call isn't placed, so the phone doesn't ring.

    This means your phone can be "pinged" and located without it doing anything to notify you. If you haven't added an external detector (i.e. diode and piezo sounder) to detect the transmission you won't know it's being done.

    I understand that law enforcement agencies already have equipment to do this. Perhaps this is what they're bringing.

    and if you could place a cell tower close to the site

    For "cell tower" read "small box of test equipment with a little antenna at a known point."

    - you could do a triangulation of the vicem by setting up three loude noise makers spaced far appart. Each would trigger in sequece, and a triangulation could be made by determining how long the cellphone took to hear the noise.

    Simpler: Have four (or more) antennas at known relative positions listen for the signal and measure the DIFFERENCE in the arrival time. (You can also measure the PHASE of the signal to determine the "difference in arrival time" to as much less than a cycle of the signal as you equipment can measure the phase.)

    The surface of constant path difference (result of measuring with two antennas) gives you a hyperbolid. Add a third antenna and you get the intersection of two hyperbolids - a curved line. (Don't recall the family of curves at the moment.) Add the fourth and you're down to two points in space.

    You can also do this with four passive devices measuring the time between a cell tower's "ping" and the phone's reply, though the computation is a bit more involved.

    Problem is that this is the behavior in free space. Add anything that bounces the signal about or shields the direct path and you're fouled up. And the phones are under tons of material, much of which reflects microwaves.

    Forget about measuring phase to locate down to inches - you'll have to depend on the arrival time of the start of the signal, before the additional signals that took a different route arrive. Still good for feet or so. But if you're lucky what you'll find is the hole the signal is coming out of - and if you're not you'll get a bogus location in the vicinity of such a hole or perhaps the vicinity of the singal itself, due to signals taking different bank-shots to different antennas.

    Still, I expect it would point you in the right direction and usually send you to the right room-sized volume. And as you dig out more obscuring stuff the quality of the location would progressively improve. That's good - as you get closer you need a better idea where you're goiong, to keep from crushing the person you're after.

    Also: There's no reason why you couldn't bring test equipment that, once it got a good path to the phone could CALL it, so (if the person was alive and awake) you could talk to them. (Though it might be good to use the call mostly to tell them to stay off the phone but leave it turned on, to conserve the battery.)

    Which brings up one last downside: Some people may have either used up their batteries trying to call out while there was no working base station in reacy, or turned off the phone to conserve power for later.

    --
    Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
    1. Re:A simpler method by Ungrounded+Lightning · · Score: 2

      - you could do a triangulation of the vicem by setting up three loude noise makers spaced far appart. Each would trigger in sequece, and a triangulation could be made by determining how long the cellphone took to hear the noise.

      Simpler: Have four (or more) antennas at known relative positions listen for the signal and measure the DIFFERENCE in the arrival time.

      I wasn't quite clear. One of the antennas sends the interrogation, all four listen for the reply and measure the arrival time.

      Ideally they measure it relative to the arrival of the reply at the other antennas, not to the interrogating signal, so the time it takes the phone to figure out it needs to send a reply doesn't make clocing inaccuracies in the receivers degrade the accuracy of the measurement.

      --
      Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way