Slashdot Mirror
MS FrontPage Restricts Free Speech II (It's True!)
A mild controvery occured yesterday in a story claiming Microsoft prohibits anti-ms speech if you use Frontpage. Here is a followup submitted by Reyacta from the original author: "Several readers have told me their
EULA for FrontPage 2002 does not contain the no-disparaging-MS
term, or that the term only applies to the FrontPage logo or to the
Web components like the MSNBC news headline component.
Just to be sure, this afternoon I went down to the store and bought
a copy of FrontPage 2002 myself. In the box was the "Microsoft
Frontpage 2002" license on a four-page folded sheet, titled "End- User License Agreement For Microsoft Software." Under Section
#1, Grant of License, the second paragraph headed "Restrictions"
states in part: "You may not use the Software in connection with
any site that disparages Microsoft, MSN, MSNBC, Expedia, or
their products or services, infringe any intellectual property or other
rights of these parties, violate any state, federal or international
law, or promote racism, hatred or pornography." (Not only a
stunning example of legal overreaching, in my opinion, but very
poor grammar as well.) It appears to me to clearly apply to use of
the program as a whole and not just the logo or Web components.
I suspect that there are different versions of the EULA of FrontPage
2002. Perhaps the license was updated for the most recent SKU,
or versions obtained through different channels don't yet have it.
I'm going to try to get Microsoft to clarify where this EULA does
and doesn't appear, but I'm not sure they will be very anxious to
provide me with that information.
Reply to Ed Foster."
Use of this Dictionary of the English Language, or any of the words contained herein, constitutes acceptance of the following terms: You shall not use this dictionary, or any of the words derived therefrom, to disparage Microsoft, Encarta, or any of the companies we swallow up.
You should get no argument when you return the product. Just tell the salesperson "The EULA prohibits me from using this product to run my website, www.livegoatporn.com."
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
So Microsoft is monopolisitic and overbearing.
Whoda thunk it?
324006
Where's the verb in this sentence?
I hope bin Laden isn't using FrontPage, or he'll really be in trouble!!
Attention all planets of the Solar Federation! We have assumed control! - Neil Peart
I can see Gates right now...
"Hey, the government loves us enough to not separate us, lets see what else we can get away with!"
Seriously, its like training a Jack Russel Terrier. They are constantly testing their bounds to see what they can get away with. Someone needs to smack MS hard, and fast.
Good quote, too many chars. Seriously, the slashdot 120 char limit sucks!
What good is making a website if you can't promote pornography?? Isn't that what the web is for??
Prevent linux based DDOS's!
http://linux.denialofservice.org/
... to sell a web page building application and then say it can't be used for promoting pornography. Doesn't MS realize that 99% of web content is pictures of naked ladies?
(intended as humor)
~ now you know
"You may not use the Software in connection with any site that disparages Microsoft, MSN, MSNBC, Expedia, or their products or services, infringe any intellectual property or other rights of these parties, violate any state, federal or international law, or promote racism, hatred or pornography."
It seems these argeements tend to get more sweeping. I can understand them actually saying 'don't use our products to disparage us'. Whether or not that's legal or binding, it's understandable.
But "hatred"? That's such a broad term that I'm rather surprised a legal let it in. How do you define hatred? Or rather, where does the definition stop? Many people agree on certain actions being 'hateful' or based on hatred, but others wouldn't be so clear cut. Anti-abortion sites might be considered 'hate' sites by some people- can they not use front page? Hatred (and porn) is in the eye of the beholder oftentimes, so how can a person USING the software determine how OTHERS will classify their use of the product?
creation science book
It's not even a bad law, it's a faulty contract which may well fail to persist under judicial scrutiny. Frankly, though, if you are using Frontpage, you have bigger problems than this EULA.
I do not have a signature
I don't know what the fuss is about. I'd love to see the bastards try to enforce this.
Microsoft Lawyer: "Your honor, I call CmdrTaco to the stand."
Taco: (takes stand)
MS: "Did you, on 9/20/2001, purchase a copy of Frontpage 2000?"
Taco: "Yes."
MS: "Did you, on 9/21/2001, use Frontpage 2000 to create a web site?"
Taco: "Yes."
MS: "And did that web site contain pictures of Mr. William H. Gates III engaging in copulation with half a dozen goats while simultaneously using the Microsoft logo to spank cash out of customers, bent over with their palms on the floor, pants around their ankles and stupid smiles on their faces?"
-Ryan, with the unoriginal sig
In other news: "You may not use this pen to write disparaging statements about BIC, or to commit slander, libel, or any criminal act. BIC explicitely refute any liability for misuse of this kind."
If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
Just make an outrageous EULA, and the geeks will flock to by your product to check with their own eyes that the EULA is indeed as outrageous as the rumors says it is...
Sorry, can't do that. The agreement says that you cannot use the licensing agreement to disparage itself.
I'm sure the poster is showing that particular section, but other agreements found on the web had language at the beginning of the section restricting the scope of following sections.
I'm still dubious on this until I see it for myself, in context.
Sometimes it's best to just let stupid people be stupid.
Not to be a stickler, but a GUI is a Graphical User Interface. Emacs, for one, has a nice, albeit simple, user interface with menus and such (although, yes, there is an emacs version that's console-based). The term you probably meant was WYSIWYG (What You See Is What You Get), which is often used to describe HTML editors where you drag and drop pictures and links (ala Front Page) rather than hand coding the entire page (ala Pico, Notepad, etc).
If you celebrate Xmas, befriend me (538
... when I downloaded it from an FTP site in China ;)
Hmm, what will the next Internet Explorer license look like?
"You may not use the Software to view any site that disparages Microsoft, MSN, MSNBC, Expedia, or their products or services, infringe any intellectual property or other rights of these parties, violate any state, federal or international law, or promote racism, hatred or pornography. Or Slashdot."
I wonder if the lawyers at various companies have contests to see who can sneak the most outrageous EULA past customers. I can just see it,
"Hey Ted, now everybody who buys our software X has to name their firstborn after me."
"Ha! That's nothing. Everybody who buys our stuff has to GIVE me their firstborn."
Now they won't sell Front Page to the porn industry? I bet 90% of the porn sites out there were created by it.
Microsoft continues to damage the economy by their actions.
No, Thursday's out. How about never - is never good for you?
Text in italics = story submitter
Text NOT in italics = Cmdr Taco or other staff
Is it really that hard to understand?
When you get the "Blue Screen of Death" the EULA will stipulate that you are forbiden to cuss out Microsoft while you hit Ctrl-Alt-Del.
When you get a GPF - you'll be forbiden to yell and holler about those MS morons while you watch hours of work disappear.
When you get a Outlook Express virus, you'll be forbiden to say it's an exploit of MS, but rather you'll have to concede it's a feature.
When your network crashes, you will be forbiden to call anyone and tell them that Microsoft crashed - you'll have to blame it on yourself or proclaim that it's a result of Microsoft ceasing function to end a critical memory leak for your benefit.
When the internet becomes YAMM - Yet Another Microsoft Monopoly - you'll be forbiden to get online and complain about Microsoft in any way - even to Microsoft's own support staff. You will only be able to praise Microsoft's infinite wisdom and grace.
When entertainment centers become YAMM, you'll be forbiden to play any music that uses Microsoft's name in vain.
When toilets become YAMM, you'll be forbiden to fart in any way that sounds like Microsoft or Bill Gates.
When churches become yet another YAMM, you'll be required to... well, we'll wait and see...
What is the definition of the term "The Software" used in that EULA? The one I saw yesterday defined it in a prior paragraph specifically as the web componenents. Does this one not include that definition? Or is it defined differently? It's hard to evaluate that clause because without the definition it's somewhat out of context.
Admit nothing, deny everything and make counter-accusations.
Microsoft EULA: "You may not use the Software in connection with any site that disparages Microsoft, MSN, MSNBC, Expedia, or their products or services, infringe any intellectual property or other rights of these parties, violate any state, federal or international law, or promote racism, hatred or pornography."
I think the part about "racism, hatred or pornography" is only there to get sympathy and to hide that Microsoft is trying to repeal the U.S. constitutional right to free speech.
If Microsoft is allowed to continue this way, it will eventually be: United States, a Microsoft company.
What Should be the Response to Violence?
Bush's education improvements were
Microsoft Windows XP Professional
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EULAID:WX.4_PRO_RTL_EN
This seems to be a trend. Oracle's most recent software licenses have started to include additional restrictions, such as not being able to use the software to conduct third-party training. This obviously is designed to protect Oracle's own Education centers, but isn't that a restraint of trade? Why should they be able to say what uses you can make of the software?
I think there's a case to be made that End User License Agreements are accepted by users under duress, because there is no acceptable alternative to the software once it's in production and the company is relying on it for its core business processes.
In the original conspiracy theory posted by /. numerous people pointed out that the clause only referred to the use of the MSN and MSNBC components, which are basically web services of a sort.
This new article only states that the sentence does appear in the EULA, which was not in dispute.
What was in dispute was whether the sentence was taken out of context.
This new article doesn't provide any new evidence.
The next American revolution will be fought over corporatism. The next Bill of Rights will extend the prohibitions on governmental restrictions to corporate restrictions.
Wasn't it Sirius Cybernetic Corporation that Douglas Adams mentioned in HHGG that was predicted to be the first against the wall in the next revolution? He was a prophet...
Hey, cmdrtaco could have left that out. Doesn't matter who's text it is, its on the forntpage of the least perfect website in the world trying to proclaim what a perfect society, company, internet and world should be.
thats what makes it funny. cmdrtaco has full editorial review, so why doesn't he exercise it.
So you don't like the terms that attach to FrontPage ? Simple, DON'T USE IT AND RETURN THE PRODUCT. After all, this is what everyone who objects to the (equally dubious) clauses of the GPL are told, isn't it ? Why is one set of restrictive conditions being vilified while another set of restrictive conditions sanctified ? Certainly in both cases consumers and users have plenty of choices available.
I wouldn't mind it one bit if they all took a sick day at the same time, to tell Microsoft that they are sick of the Lawyers and the Marketroids screwing around with the public like this.
This has nothing to do with the quality of the product.
It was for reason like this that people start to sabotage repressive regimes.
This is evil, whoever put it in. And they wonder why people don't like them.
In times like these people and companies should assert and protect their rights. Not try to rip them off.
"It is a greater offense to steal men's labor, than their clothes"
Anyone who has ever viewed the source of a html doc made by frontpage will surely agree that everything made in that horrible program is pretty disparaging toward whoever wrote it. It's downright shamefull!
___
The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason. --Ben Franklin
If you are so anti-Microsoft that you feel the need to create a site against it, isn't it a touch hypocrtical to be using a Microsoft product to do that?
No, it's called poetic justice...
You're using her as bait, Master!
Son, you have _far_ too much time on your hands...
The scary thing is, I agree with you!
Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside a dog it's too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
Make sure you include some porn on the page you created. And some links to white-supremacist sites...
You're using her as bait, Master!
It's probably a pipe-dream, but I really do suggest that writers of EULAs, licences, etc, start by reading some books on how to recognise what is mutually beneficial and what is merely abusive.
I suggest starting with some light reading - "For Your Own Good", "The Verbally Abusive Relationship" and "The Road Less Travelled" are probably good places to start. You might notice that none of them specifically talk about EULAs, or indeed about computer software. However, they have a LOT to say about the mind, what stimulates it and what kills it.
I accept that no two people are going to agree on what is a sane policy or attitude, but one thing is certain. Unless people DO start thinking about such issues, we're going to see a lot more EULAs like this. And worse.
It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
"All your thoughts are belong to us!"
That reminds me, whatever happened to the Natalie Portman and hot grits posts? And where is signal11?
The EULA of the future will prohibit even thinking a bad thought about Microsoft. The serial numbers will be 100 digits long, and you will be told to post a photo of Bill Gates above your desk. Some reviewers will say that Microsoft was very kind to include a photo in the box, so that users do not have to buy one separately.
What Should be the Response to Violence?
Bush's education improvements were
It seems to me that that stuff is put there to cover their legal asses in case someone is offended by a website that was created using Frontpage.
I could totally see someone deciding that the website creator was not enough money and deciding to sue MS instead for creating the software that allows it.
Mmmm.. Donuts
I bet if people read further they would realize they can use the software to publish whatever they wish, but they can't link, refer or otherwise user microsoft name, logo or software to do this..
The big problem with frontpage is it defaults to portraying "this site runs under frontpage". If microsoft were to clean its software of its own filth then these liabilities wouldn't be an issue.
I bet each component is licensed, and the combination of everything has limited use functionality on the basis of the restrictions imposed within the EULA for the simple fact microsoft doesn't want to be liable for its software enabling users to distribute illegal content..
just like napster.. had to lock down until it coudl gurantee it wouldn't be used for illegal purposes.. microsoft doesn't want tthat to happen to front page
Probably can't, he already opened it. Unless it's one of those software stores that allows 24 hr software returns (YES, they exist, Software ETC used to do it). Does bring up a valid point thoguh. I bought a piece of MS software, I read the EULA in it's entirety, and I don't agree. Can I have my money back?
There is no reasonable defense against an idiot with an agenda
:wq
- Passport saying "all your info belongs to us"
- racketeering of digital photos
- Smart Tags
- Astroturfing
- etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc.
And this is just the ones where they got caught, the mainstream media cared, and they backed down. There's plenty of other shit they do that slides by.Sorry, but after the same exact set of events repeats itself dozens of times over the course of a decade, you can't chalk it up to accident any more. This is malice.
I'm a .NET developer and recently I've been building solutions using Windows, SQL Server, Etc. I can usually be found defending MS as Slashdot generally has an unfair bias against them. This, however, SHOCKS ME. How many more donations to the EFF do I have to make this year? I used to say MS's biggest weakness (and challange) was it's inherint security problems in Office/Outlook. Now I'll have to tack on truly draconion EULA's.
There is no longer anything that can be done with computers that is nontrivial and clearly legal. -- Paul Phillips
Doesn't change anything. Microsoft is saying they are above the law of the land.
Bush's education improvements were
That's why the CD case inside the box has a sticker seal on it telling you to read the EULA first.
+++
NO CARRIER
A couple of people have suggested that if one doesn't like the FrontPage EULA, you shouldn't use it, That may work for individuals, but what about corporations?
Are they not allowed to say anything negative about Microsoft (like reporting on sleazy things they did in the DOJ trial) just because their IT department decided that everyone's going to use FrontPage to generate web content? What about a news organization?
Think about if other companies did this. I remember back in 1997 when it fashionable to back Apple, you'd have writers penning very biased anti-Apple articles from their own PowerBooks (hey! I'm talking to you, Wired).
I guess this all stems from the idea that you can't buy software; you only license it. It'll only get worse when they put annual subscriptions into play because they won't have to take you to court; they'll just refused to renew your subscription.
I wonder if this means that Microsoft will someday decide to not renew some Microsoft-investigatin' journalist's subscription to their products because of some condition like this in the EULA.
Insert simplistic political, ideological, or personal proselytization here.
I believe the 1st Amemendment to The Constitution of The United States of America trumps M$ new EULA.
cat
"Under Section #1, Grant of License, the second paragraph headed 'Restrictions' states in part: 'You may not use the Software...'"
In the license I saw, an earlier paragraph said:
"For purposes of this section, the Software means the FrontPage Web components, including the MSNBC news headline component, the MSN MoneyCentral Stock Quote component, and the MSN Search component."
The story submitter doesn't say whether this clause is in his EULA or not. If it is, then as previously reported, the site content restrictions only apply to sites that use services provided through MSN, not all sites that are created with FrontPage.
-- Old Man Kensey
Yeah, and pretty soon Linux will release a licence that means any time you use Open Source software, all the software you write with it has to be Open Source too .... hang on, wait a minute ....
-- the most controversial site on the Web
This is the only weirdness I found. "If you get a key from us, we are permitted to install additional locks."
How many stories do we need to see about this before the Slashdot guys bother to just CONTACT MICROSOFT? Would it really be so horrible if Taco or Roblimo stopped surfing the web for a few hours and actually called up MS and asked what the deal with the license is?
I realize that they aren't really journalists, but can't they just show a little bit of responsibility if they are going to keep posting about this?
Hey Reyacta,
That's a good article you've written here. I'm still wondering about one point: you actually gave Microsoft money, oh my, for a product you disagree with.
I think that the EULA authorises you to get a refund if you can't or don't want to comply with it. Did you use that opportunity to test how respectful of their own license they are? I believe that if they don't refund you, then they break their own license and then you're pretty much free to use the product according to your local laws and not the license. Did you actually give it a try?
-- B.
This sig does in fact not have the property it claims not to have.
I've seen mention of this three times on ./, except that it has yet to be posted correctly or without bias. A paragraph prior to the one currently in question defines the use of the term "the Software" as the FrontPage Server extensions. I have copied the relevant portion of the EULA below.
I am not one who supports M$, their practices often disgust me, and I find their software to be cumbersome. However, I think that there are far too many people who will jump at any opportunity to cry murder. I am dissapointed that no one took two minutes to read the appropriate section of the EULA.
I saw someone use frontpage, and it sure sucked.
persoanlly I think you would have to be an idiot to use it...
thus the 'reviewer' would never actually agree to the eula.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
As sugested, I checked Microsoft's definition of Microsoft.
/shared/spot/xmlsearchcore.inc, line 572 "
The Encarta Dictionary says "No matches found for: Microsoft"
The Encarta Encyclopedia, however, has a much more fitting definition:
"Microsoft VBScript runtime error '800a0005', Invalid procedure call or argument,
I think that really sums it up!
___
The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason. --Ben Franklin
The punishment should be being forced to surf the site they created with a non-MS browser. Oh wait, that would be 'cruel and unusual'...nevermind.
He could just add a clause in the use contract of PGP stating:
"Do not use PGP for bad stuff."
-Kraft
Live and let live
actually contains that provision, keep in mind that many contracts contain
illegal (or at least overreaching) clauses. My guess is that the provision
was included in the EULA as a scare tactic, and that a court would strike
down the provision if the EULA was ever litigated. "
psxndc
The emacs religion: to be saved, control excess.
The government, through the judiciary, can refuse to enforce terms of private contracts that are against public policy. This is how discriminatory restrictive covenants on property deeds were rendered ineffective. The deed may say "the property may not be sold or leased to Blacks or Jews", but the courts will not enforce that restriction. See Shelly v. Kraemer.
Mea navis aericumbens anguillis abundat
Interesting.
The Microsoft EULA is an anti-competitive practice, however, isn't it? In some cases, it could discourage someone from saying they don't like a Microsoft product.
Bush's education improvements were
Tian xia wu shang? What's that in reference to?
also this seems like an unenforcable thing to begin with. not because there aren't ways to tell how a page was created but because there are so many people using MS products that disparage them as well. thats why they disparage them cause they are forced to use them. i just don't like the idea that these EULAs can be used to tell me how to do just about anything. if microsoft says that i have to wear plaid pants when using winME then what am i going to do? (I know use Linux) this is getting bizarre. i believe that the justice department needs to take a sliver away from the hunt for osama to bitchslap MS.
-
What needs emphasizing is that the standards we use to communicate must be in the public domain. If not, if an industry standard controlled by a company becomes widespread, the company can put in such clauses in effectively prohibit certain unwanted kinds of speech, typically we will see first speech that critizes the company.
Now, mark that The Universal Declaration of Human Rights specifically grants the right to express yourself in any medium. If, say one company owns an industry standard that is the only way to communicate by speech, this human right does no longer exist.
That is why Ogg is so important. It will make a standard for the public domain, and this standard is the only thing that saves free speech in the multimedia age. No Ogg, no free speech.
Similarily, we must make sure that similar bodies, working on other public domain standards, such as the W3C are successful. Without them, we're screwed.
An for those saying that "just don't use FP", well, you see, we all know M$ wants to control these commodity protocols, and M$ hardly cares about a bunch of geeks anyway, so us boycotting M$ doesn't help. Joe Sixpack must understand the problem, cause if he doesn't, they'll win, and turn the web into their network, and make sure FP is the only authoring tool you can use. It'll be the end of free speech too...
Ensuring that the standards are in the public domain is even more important than that software is Free (as in speech).
Employee of Inrupt, Project Release Manager and Community Manager for Solid
You might be able to get away with that in a standard contract but the enforceability of a shrink-wrap license is very questionable. You cannot even see the conditions of the EULA until after you have purchased the product and opened it (therefore not being able to return it). Contracts of adhesion are hard to defend even under normal circumstances, and I'm sure if they ever took this to court MS would lose.
Here's my DeCSS mirror, where's yours?
... how did you like FrontPage 2002, compared, to, say, FrontPage 2000? (What, no product review?)Or would you recommend waiting for Frontpage 2004?
Good point.
So, this is the law: We have the right of free speech, unless there is a compelling reason to take it away.
Is the desire for Microsoft to make more money a compelling reason?
I haven't been expressing myself well, but I sense that there is something wrong about this.
Bush's education improvements were
No, not at all. Reality is that a lot of people either don't know how to author web pages otherwise, or that they are forced to use a Microsoft software infrastructure. Windows users are the best ones to criticize Windows, and it seems both legitimate and natural for them to use Windows tools.
Can anyone really blame them if they don't want to have their own tools used against them.
Yes, one can. Microsoft makes software for authoring. That doesn't give them the right to control what we say or do. The fact that they do try to do this is an indication of how dangerous the company is. What's next? You can't say anything disparaging about your phone company on the phone? If Microsoft gets completely in bed with the Republican party, you can't use FrontPage to create sites for the Democratic party?
what if I created an anti-Linux site using the Tux image?
I'm sure there are lots of sites like that. I don't believe Tux is a trademark, but even if it were, and you used it correctly to identify Linux, that would be legit. Just like it is legitimate to use the trademark "Microsoft Windows" to describe an OS that sucks, if you actually are talking about "Microsoft Windows".
I develop the site on a Linux system, hosting it on a Linux server.
I think that would be great. Please go ahead.
Personally, I would take this "first-hand account" with a grain of salt. I'd also be interested to see if someone can find the EULA for FrontPage 2002 online (most of them are).
In the meantime, we can just say anti-Microsoft stuff using W2K servers, IIS, with the pages written with Notepad, if this is the case.
It means that the EULA is just meaningless fiction, and not a contract that you bound yourself to.
Almost all EULAs are like that.
Even GPL.
The only exceptions to this are
As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
Look at the EULA again and see if you can find any consideration that would make you want to agree to that contract. I bet you'll find nothing.
If you don't find any good reason to agree to the EULA, then don't do it. Then you can use Frontpage 2002 publish all the porn and Microsoft bashing that you want to.
As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
Amen!
It really is quite simple, but still sometimes one had to express the wonder, which is what happened with your quote above.
They suck we know it, they know we do, but Joe Q Public doesn't. How exactly are we going to get that done?
Blogging because I can...
Well you're advocading -total capitalism-.
* A backer may then also sell his bread at any price he wants?
* All backers of a city may then unite to an organisation to "synchronise" their price politic?
* Than they may also demand the double price for the bread? After all they backed it.
* People would still have to buy it or they would starve.
* A greater backery store with more financial backhold may dump it's price to nearly zero until all other backery stores are out of business, and then raise it to the double as the marked value was before, or? After all they may sell their bread at any price they want, it's their bread.
* The bigger backery store may spread fear and distrust about the low quality of bread of the other stores, and how it -could- cause illnes, because it -could- mutate.
* On the bread is an EULA saying you may not eat this bread on dishes produced by other companies. (misuse of monopole by using it to expand to other sectors)
etc. etc.
You're throwing us back into age of the industrial revolution, where workers had no rights, lived in slums near the factory, and were usually been squeezed the last out of them.
100% uncontrolled capitalism has already prooven not to work in the past.
--
Karma 50, and all I got was this lousy T-Shirt.
It also affects Lotus Sametime (their Instant Message/Collaboration software), as well as PC-Anywhere.
Gee
* Innovate : (verb) To steal features from competitors while using ones Monopoly market position to bar those same competitors from the market (from MS-DIC 2002, previously a Merriam-Webster property)
This space for rent. All reasonable inquiries will be entertained at proprietors discretion.
First of all, the idea that a private organization or individual is in any way prevented from prior restraint of free speech by the Constitution must be disposed of. Microsoft does have the ability to enter into a contract with a user of their software which would constitute a prior restraint on free speech if done by the government. There is the rub, the Constitution restricts governments, not private persons, in their behavior. In short, free speech guarantees and civil rights don't enter into this issue at all.
The second issue here is whether a contract with these terms would be upheld by a court. The answer is not really clear, we need some litigation to set some predictable precedents. The Uniform Computer Information Transactions Act (UTICA) would probably be the context in which such contracts would be evaluated. There are two problems with this contract which could be the basis for not enforcing the offensive provisions.
First, a court would likely find that these terms are of a nature so unexpected and objectionable that an end-user would not have agreed to them if they knew they were there (after-all only the deepest of geeks actually read their EULAs). UTICA provides for recission of such terms by the court.
Secondly, the terms may be held to be unconscionable as against public policy. This artguement seems much less likely to suceed . As I pointed out earlier prior restraint of free speech does not apply to private parties and thus any argument on free speech grounds would be quite weak. There may be other public policy grounds one could drum up in support of unconscionability, but none occur to me right now.
Of course, one also has to wonder if MS would ever seek to enforce such a thing. I rather doubt it, but it might give them a tool of harrassment to threaten people with a lawsuit to get them to remove content they don't like. Rational people are likely to remove the offending content rather than wrestle with MS's legal staff. Thus it really doesn't matter if a court would enforce it, the fact that MS can drag you into expensive litigation on the slim chance that a court MIGHT uphold it is the chilling effect that they are after. That is why they are slime for including it in their EULAs.
Sigs are for kids
Dear Microsoft,
I don't use frontpage.
Fuck You.
How would Microsoft even know what I used to create my anti-MS site? I always hand edit the code to add in ssi stuff anyhow and normal cut out the meta tags that indicate I used Frontpage (out of shame, seeing as I have two other equal and superior programs for HTML creation).
This is not the way to build a lasting empire.
You're kidding right? Very few retail outlets will let you get away with that regardless of the reason.
Sad really.
Only in your Libertarian dreams... {;D}=
It seems to me that the more outrageous and nonsensical EULA's become, the more the software-buying public will ignore them. Common sense tells us that Microsoft doesn't have the right to restrict the use of their products in this manner. So, since such provisions are obviously bullshit, it's not a great leap to conclude that the rest of the license is probably bullshit, too. When faced with increasing disrespect for EULA's, Microsoft then has whine to congress about 'piracy', and create the BSA to "educate" consumers that, in fact, up is down, wrong is right, and you can't really use FrontPage to make a website critical of Microsoft.
Don't forget that Friday is Hawaiian shirt day.
If I say, "I know a lot of programming languages, including C and Perl.", that sentence does NOT say that C and Perl are the only programming languages I know.
If they outlaw use of "the FrontPage Web components" for disparaging to MS sites, they have just greatly limited the "functionality" of Frontpage for someone who wants to use it for that purpose - especially since it won't be clear to all users whether or not they are using a "FrontPage Web component", since some of them assuredly get inserted as part of standard templates and editing operations in the program.
Don't label something "offtopic" unless you know the topic well enough to tell what's on topic.
Appearently, this, and the original InfoWorld article made it to WebPagesThatSuck with the point that pages produced with FrontPage are disparaging to MicroSoft's image enough, without having to say anything about the product explicitly.
healyourchurchwebsite.com - WWJB?
I'll just use that to write a web site desparaging the Front Page EULA.
Thank God that Microsoft can't it's grubby little paws on the text editor.
KFG
Almost all EULAs are like that.
Even GPL.
Actually, this is incorrect. The difference between other licenses and the GPL is that other licenses remove freedoms that you would normally have, while the GPL adds to them. For example, under normal copyright, if a program was distributed without ANY license, I would have the freedom to a) examine it b) learn from it c) use it for any purpose d) make copies for archival purposes and e) anything else that fair use may allow. Past these things, you are restricted, even if no license is present. That is the basic copyright law. However, the GPL grants additional privileges that you don't normally get with copyright. Normal EULAs restrict the normal set of privileges, and thus many of us think of them as legal fictions. However, since the GPL actually expands them, you don't have to agree to the terms of the GPL until you decide you want the additional privileges. The text of the GPL also states this so you are aware of it. You only have to agree to the terms of the GPL for distribution, which is an allowance above and beyond the normal allowances under regular copyright law.
Engineering and the Ultimate
XP is not a Server operating system, so why would you be running services off of it, other than maybe a personal file share?
Whatever happened to the peer-to-peer nature of the Internet Protocol? If you can only listen for and accept 10 simultaneous TCP connections, how can you serve files to other users?
Only XP Home is limited to a single CPU machine. Of course, since XP Home is meant to replace win9x, I don't see the problem
As AMD and Intel begin to push Moore's law into the fundamental limits of silicon semiconductors, they may have to use multiple processors to get lower execution times. The "per-CPU" pricing schedule of the Windows XP OS (single-cpu home $150 street; dual-cpu pro $250-$300 street) would shift the supply curve of multiprocessor computers upward, with an effect equivalent to a tax on processors.
If you multiply Oracle's "per MHz" model by Microsoft's "per month" subscription model, you get a value in (small fractions of) dollars per CPU cycle. This raises the question: Will Microsoft move to a "per CPU cycle" pricing model, charging more for faster processors so that Moore's law can bring exponential revenue over time?
Will I retire or break 10K?
False. It refers to "the FrontPage Web components", which it then goes further to say includes the MSN/MSNBC components. It never said ONLY those web components in the example list it gave were covered.
Don't label something "offtopic" unless you know the topic well enough to tell what's on topic.
But what if they all have different, but still objectionable licenses?
If the major players don't own any patents essential for the implementation of the technology, you can always develop an alternative to the product. Example 1: the GNU system. Example 2: PostgreSQL has become an excellent clone of Oracle DB. The fact that a standards document describes SQL and that documentation available online describes Oracle PL/SQL makes this task much easier.
Will I retire or break 10K?
This FrontPage EULA is just a trial of the concept. If there are not a lot of complaints, expect other Microsoft EULAs:
Microsoft Photo Editor: Users are forbidden to draw horns on photos of Bill Gates.
Microsoft Turd^H^H^H^H Word: Users are forbidden to write anything bad about Microsoft.
Microsoft Internet Explorer: Explore only Microsoft approved sites.
The CIA trained Osama bin Laden: What Should be the Response to Violence?
Bush's education improvements were
Now I've seen everything.
You see? You see? Your stupid minds! Stupid! Stupid!
Nope! There is further discovery scheduled. I'd love to see this detail worked in to the elaborate tapestry of control and dominance Microsoft's produced for judiciary perusal :)
It doesn't make sense to joke about something that doesn't exist, and no-one is suggesting should exist... It's the joke that was impaired.
You are correct, Amendments to The Constitution have no jurisdiction in any way shape or form over anything. It is judges and law enforcement agencies that possess jurisdiction. If M$ attempts to enforce this EULA, the recipient of such action would have a healthy First Amendment argument, quite possibly rendering their EULA unenforceable. IANAL, but by best friend is, and he said in a blink of an eye that it was probably unenforceable. M$ is not actually trampling anybody's rights until they attempt to enforce this silly EULA, so it is my guess they probably hope some people to willingly surrender their rights to criticize Microsoft.
cat
You are aware of what happened when people tried to return copies of Windows after rejecting the EULA, aren't you? (Hint: it didn't work)
It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds. - Captain Hammer
Does the 1st amendment apply to a government web site which requires Frontpage? Do any of the Justice Department pages use Frontpage?
What about restricting the speech of users of government sites using Frontpage?
Furthermore, you can't have an XP machine running in a forest, as whether or not it makes a sound is indeterminable.
Copyrights, Patents, Trademarks: temporary loans from the Public Domain, not real property ("intellectual" or otherwise)
This EULA isn't respectable. So, it won't be respected.
..."
Heck, it ain't big deal. Front Page is a layout tool and code generator. The best thing I can say is that it helps you to get the ball rolling in some cases. However, the HTML it produces is chock full of goofy tags. I can't stand to use it. It's ponderous and cumbersome when you try to do simple edits. It's like smashing flies with a sledgehammer. Home site is a better product, if you must use such a thing. This isn't politically correct to say and I'll bet I get flamed but mostIy, these sorts of tools seem to appeal to women more than men. I think these things are OK for creating a template but then just use a decent editor to get it like you want it. You can strip out all that Microsoft header stuff anyway.
"All in all, it just another brick in the wall
Wansu, th' chinese sailor
You'd use Microsoft software to make anti-Microsoft webpages? Am I missing something here? :)
Men believe what they want. - Caesar
I'm guessing the person you are replying to meant "And where is signal11 in the EULA?". After all, if you are going to go to all that trouble to stop people bashing MS, you may as well shut siggy up while you're at it.
--
enterfornone - logging in for a change
In fact, the sentence is perfectly good English, but it doesn't mean what it's probably intended to mean. Parse the sentence and what do you get?
* You may not use the Software in connection with any site that disparages Microsoft, MSN, MSNBC, Expedia, or their products or services
* You may not infringe any intellectual property or other rights of these parties, violate any state, federal or international law, or promote racism, hatred or pornography.
Because of the singular forms in the second clause, its verbs logically belong to "you may not". They do NOT logically belong to "...use the Software in connection with any site that".
So what the terms say is that by accepting the EULA, you have to give up promoting porn ALTOGETHER - whether it's done with their crappy software or not!
No, your children are not the special ones. Nor are your pets.
The buildings and people were bad enough, but abusing a Microsoft EULA? Bomb the bastards!
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
The implication is that any other sites on the same machine at your ISP, sites that you link to, or link to you, etc, can all disqualify you from using it.
`Disparage' is also a pretty general term. Saying that The GIMP is better than MS-Paint could be viewed as disparaging, even if you do it using benchmark results and no analysis.
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
No streaming cameras? No X-10? No RTTY?
No web, FTP or gopher servers, apparently including IIS (hooray!), no VNC, probably no SSH or telnet daemons, inasmuch as M$ are certain to define their miserable CLI as a part of XP's user interface.
Now for the scarey bit:
...even if they deliberately or accidentally fail, for example, by refusing to run certain important Open Source products. Remember ``DOS ain't done 'till Lotus won't run?'' Add this clause...
OK, here's the big one: we can change any of your software (the ``Product'' and/or components such as applications built to run on it and containing parts of it (runtime library interface module etc) without notice, and you agree to this. This includes new ``measures'' to prevent ``unlicenced or illegal use'' - and it's no great stretch of the imagination to visualise this including software made illegal by the SSSCA such as Apache, PHP or Screem (does FrontPage things only better, faster, cheaper and safer).
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
Note that the license is INSIDE the box, genius.
"Encyclopedia" is to "Wikipedia" what "Library" is to "Some people at a bus stop"
Frontpage generates IE-centric spaghetti anyways...
So Use Dreamweaver!
Beware: I believe all are created equal, and have the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.
Has anyone at Microsoft checked out any porn pages? Near as I can tell, the propreitors of porn pages are the biggest users of FrontPage!
Of course, I only go to those pages for the articles.
SFNative
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Nothing exceeds like excess
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Alright, folks. Where is it? I'm looking for a single Web page, designed with FrontPage 2002, that describes this EULA and says it's stupid. A wonderfully self-referential violation.
Any takers?
Why not make a scan of the EULA, and post it on the web?