Slashdot Mirror
Michael Jackson Releases Uncopyable CD
Derek Jeter writes "NTK.net is reporting in their weekly newsletter that another copy restricted CD has surfaced, this time Michael Jackson's newest single, "Rock Your World". "When loaded into the CD drive, the disc spun continuously as though the drive was trying to access the TOC of a blank or corrupted CDR." Ughh, Doesn't this violoate the Red Book Standard?" I wonder how long before MP3s of this song exist despite the copy protection. So far its just free promotional copies of the single. I tell ya I'm gonna be pissed the first time I buy a CD and discover I can't listen to it in my computer.
I don't have any big urge to copy Michael Jackson's CDs anyway.
Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
The song is already on AudioGalaxy and available for download. They just can't win. Copy protection doesn't work!
Make even shorter URLs - 8LN.org
But then, what should we expect from a major record label?
Remember when businesses tried to *please* their customers?
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
These guys just don't get it. All it takes is one audiophile with a decent sound system, a couple RCA cables, and an MP3 encoder. Sure it'll be an D-A-D job and you'll lose a bit of fidelity on the initial copy, but once that's done, it'll be perfectly preserved, copy after copy after copy after copy.
Copy-protected music just doesn't work, because until we all start carrying around implants in our heads, the data *must* be converted to analog sound, and when that happens, the copy protection convieniently goes away.
Just reply saying:
"You put copy protection on the disc, so there can't be any copies."
;-)
1. Have high-quality outputs on your stereo.
2. Have high-quality inputs on your sound card.
3. Have high-quality audio cables.
Case closed.
Not that that justifies what they're doing, but it suggests they might be less likely to do it to end-user copies.
... he's been releasing unlistenable CDs for years.
I think we need to ask ourselves if the record companies truly don't realize this. My guess is that they understand that copy protecting the CD in this manner won't stop the MP3 from being made Anyone can make an ok mp3 with their normal stereo and a microphone wired to their computer. So what we really need to ask is why the record companies are releasing CD's in this manner.
I believe it is to stop legitimate music owners from making MixCD's and from copying the CD directly. It's obvious that finding and downloading MP3 adds extra steps to the piracy (or backup) process - making redistributing a CD on a real medium (such as CDR) that much more difficult. In fact, if I bought a whole "protected" CD, I would never burn copies for my friends - because it would take fair amount or time and dedication to download *each* track from the CD in *good
So the record companies have likely succeeded in their task of making music piracy (or backups) slightly more complicated for the legitimate CD owner.
Of course, those people who don't buy the CD in the first place, i.e. the habitual music pirate, will not have a more difficult task than they already have with unprotected music, because the music will make it to MP3 format, and fault tolerant CDROM's already exist...
The latest research has discovered that in addition to being uncopyable, Michael Jackson's new CD is also unlistenable. Purchases report little more than high-pitch squeaks, scratches, murmurs and the occasional "hoo!".
Got Rhinos?
Just how hard is it to run a set of patch cables? The performance loss is far less than what you get on MP3 as it is.
And besides, I can see some audio geek in a pro studio getting pissed off at the king of poop, and making a copy just to screw with him
"It is a greater offense to steal men's labor, than their clothes"
Michael Jackson is such a prime example of someone who just needs to pack it in and stay at home.
That's funny, I lump NIN into the same "preteen rubbish" category that Michael Jackson goes into.
Listen to some real music someday.
Got Rhinos?
I'll be more pissed the first time I buy a CD and discover I bought one by Michael Jackson. <shudder>
Slashdot? Oh, I just read it for the articles.
This seems like a marketing tactic to me. You think that Jackson is smart enough to trick all us geeks into buying his CD just to try to crack it?
Hahahahahahahaha!
"Ooooh, life's so hard, being 16, white, and upper-middle-class, only trent and marylin know how I feel."
Sorry, I don't listen to anything michael jackson produced after smooth criminal (i love that clip) but at least he has talent.
Send lawyers, guns, and money!
"Everyone who can still fill a stadium please step forward. Not so fast, Mr. Jackson."
"All non-pedophiles please step forward. Not so fast, Mr. Jackson."
And also, complain to Microsoft that the CD player that comes with Windows can't play that CD.
Try to use the power of Microsoft to tell the record industry you're pissed off.
To buy the new Plunderphonics box set!
It doesn't mean much now, it's built for the future.
...but where on the CD case does it say that it conforms? As a matter of curiosity, does this CD actually have the "Compact Disc--Digital Audio" logo on it? Even if it does, does this mean that it complies with the standard--or does it mean only that it will play on players that comply with the standard?
I used to wonder about the companies that broadcast scrambled pay-content over regular television broadcast channels. Weren't THEY violating FCC standards by transmitting a non-NTSC-compliant signal? Didn't seem to matter...
As for PC vendors, they've been playing fast and loose with standards for ages. I remember first getting into this with people that kept insisting (incorrectly) that the Apple ][ generated NTSC video. Apple in fact had a carefully worded but misleading statement that said something like "the video is designed to be viewed on monitors that comply with the NTSC standard." That is, the signal was (way) outside the NTSC standard, but the NTSC standard for MONITORS requires them to be very tolerant...
I keep hearing horror stories from DVD enthusiasts. Apparently, in this year of our Lord 2001, it's not at all rare to find DVD X that plays in player A but not player B... and DVD Y that plays in player B but not player A. Not because of copy-protection or anything like that. Just because of bad standards, lame engineering, and NO watchdogs.
You know the sort of thing... the standard may say you can do thus-and-such, but very few DVD's actually do it, so lots of DVD players can get away with not implementing it quite right...
"How to Do Nothing," kids activities, back in print!
but no one noticed....
So what happens when a it's recorded onto another CD with one of Sony's consumer CD recorders? Does it produce a normal CD without that wacko formatting, or does the little LED display read "OWN3D"?
Then this is something different than simply storing data with an invalid CRC. This is an error in the TOC.
I wonder if this disc will also fail to play in some of the fancier auto sound systems with changers, the ones that pre-read all the TOCs to build a playlist.
Actually, for me it's easier to not buy the CD at all and just download it from the net.
I can download and burn a CD in less time and with less effort than it takes for me to take my bike to town and buy it in a shop. (and since I don't use real CD's very often, I have to rip that CD after buying it, adding more time)
and then I haven't even started about the costs...
So if record companies want me to buy a CD, they have to make it
- easier, no biking to town in the rain
- faster, not spending half an hour in a record store, looking for that one record (+ travel time)
- cheaper
in other words: why should I pay for something that's harder to get, and takes more time to get. compared to the same product for free.I bought a CD from MP3.com and it will only play in my CD-ROM drive. The CD is a hybrid format with some Windows only CD player attached to autoplay. All of my CD players choke on it, thinking it's a bad CD.
Nasty copy protection on C64 games often made it impossible to back up the flakey 5 1/4 disks they came on. That is, unless you went to your local pirate BBS and got yourself a copy of the latest patch. Those who did this enjoyed their games as long as they liked. Those who did not were stuck whining when their favorite game ate it after being shoved into and pulled out of the 1541 drive too many times.
The same applies today with music. I was listening to one of my VNV Nation CD backups the other day, and it started skipping. This happened to be a limited edition- it would have been very hard to replace had that been the real CD I'd bought all scratched up and skipping like that. But I was able to go home and make another, then toss out the busted one. Good stuff!
I protect my investment. My CD investment is quite substantial- over 250 CDs last time I checked... and all the ones that get real use from me get burned to copies. I wouldn't shed a tear if my CD case fell off a boat or got lost or whatever while I travel these days, since it's all burned backups. I wonder how people will get by in the future?
What we call folk wisdom is often no more than a kind of expedient stupidity.-Edward Abbey
The Pioneer DVD-ROM drives can usually handle more CD's than others. The Ricos are really bad. Creative Labs have trouble ejecting. Just because a particular CD-ROM drive stops working doesn't mean big business is taking away individual freedom by copy protecting CD's.
So far its just free promotional copies of the single.
Record Company: This new copy protection method will ensure that nobody is getting a "free ride" with the new Michael Jackson single.
Person with common sense: Aren't you giving away the single for free anyways?
Record Compnay: Ummmmmmm....
Stupid Cheap Guitars
Here's the problem:
If the only purchasble form of a new MJ song is in an 'unbreakable encrypted' version, than any mp3 versions of the song *must* be in violation of the DMCA. Then, they don't even have to prove you cracked it, guilty by induction.
All your base are belong to us!
Let's face it, wouldn't you thrash and refuse to play a Michelle Jackson CD?
So instead of going after the "pirates", they go after their average consumer.
Good one Rosen...
The number one station on Live365 (which is a very large internet MP3 broadcasting company, for those that don't know - lost of "Shoutcast" stations are hosted on Live365) is Pop R&B, which would include Michael Jackson, so it's arguable that he's one of the most listened to artists on the net. I know that when I did a search on Napster in their glory days, there were ridiculous numbers of full albums.
I'm not a tremendous fan of MJ - I was compiling an 80's Pop CD for the setting background music for a RPG, but he has plenty of various fans, and listening to "Beat It" and "Billie Jean" threw me back to when those were on heavy FM rotation.
My point is - Michael Jackson is still a major artist, and his using copy protection on a CD is major news. Somewhat lessened by the fact that this is a promo CD (which, if for radio play, makes no sense whatsoever, since radio stations rip all CDs to a computerized digital jukebox).
As for NIN - I liked Reznor's early, more experimental stuff (broken/fixed were his best, IMHO), but much of it involved things like sterio effects being 90 degrees out of sync and other exteremely suble, easily lost sonic experiments. Some of it is lost when it goes to CD, let alone compressed into MP3. I've been meaning to dig out my nice headphones, rip to 320kbps, and see if those little nuances are even there post-rip.
--
Evan
"$30 for the One True Ring. $10 each additional ring!" -- JRR "Bob" Tolkien
You know, PROPAGANDA has a nice photo of Michael Jackson's plastic surgery disaster. Its no wonder he wears a mask wherever he goes.. his fucking nose is falling off.
Cheers,
Bowie J. Poag
The only things the record companies will understand is money. The have to be financially hurt for this to stop.
If they see a large percentage of their product coming right back at them as returns, they might get the message. Personally, if I ever find a CD I cannot play on my PC, I will return it, saying it's defective. Likely, the store clerk will give me another copy, which I will also return, ad infinitum, until I get my money back. The store will have lost a sale, and the time its clerk took to deal with the issue. The record company will have to accept its defective disks back. Of course, the crecord company won;t notice this until it becomes really bad, since we know the cost of actually creating the physical CD and packaging is their smallest cost overall.
Eventually, the record companies will likely have to label these things as not working on PC-CDROM drives, to avoid having so much of their product returned to them (and wasting the time of record stores). Which will make the average consumer ask why. Having to slap a label on your product informing your customer that you've just screwed them over is likely to make the consumer think. And that's not what the record company wants.
This, of course, assumes that a large number of people use CD-ROM drives to listen to music. I'm not sure what the percentage of the average CD buying public this is. The Record industry has to either be betting that the numbers of people who, say, listen to CD's in the CD-ROM drive of their PC at work are small enough not to make a difference, or they are hoping that the consumer is sheep-like enough to simply accept that they cannot listen to their music in CD-ROMs. I'm not sure on either point.
I own a PC that I use to rip my cds to mp3 LEGALLY...
The really offensive thing, besides the MJ music, is they just changed the definition of "legal" on us. You have the right to rip your CDs, but under the DMCA the publisher also has the right to stop you from doing so, and his right trumps your right.
I'm waiting for DVDs that won't play in computers next. It's only a matter of time.
I'm not trying to start a fight here, but please refute these points because I am curious about MD.
audio quality:
MD uses lossy compression. Is there no MP3 quality setting that compares? There must be. And if you are storing files on a 650 or 700MB CD-R, there's got to be a way where you get as much music as you can on a (128MB?) MD.
simplicity:
Depends too much on the device to compare categories. However, if you already have a load of MP3s, copying them to a CD-R is pretty easy.
cheap media:
A CD-R is pretty cheap. How much is a MiniDisc? Aren't they about $3? I could be wrong.
battery life:
I do not have a CD-R based MP3 player so I can't comment, but my geek intuition tells me that since both kinds of devices have spinning media, decoding hardware and audio hardware they will probably have similar battery life. Likewise I assume cost of the player is about the same too.
There are links to CD-based MP3 players on this page.
It used to be that when I wanted new music, I had to choose... should I buy the CD and rip it to my computer to listen to it, or should I just download the mp3 from a file sharing service? Now that choice has been made for me. ;^)
I don't care if it's 90,000 hectares. That lake was not my doing.
DMCA applies in Canada; for the purposes of copyrighted materials that were made in the US, Canada is treated as being domestic to the US.
Although I'm not the owner of such a cd player, one of my dear friends has a mid-range JVC home mini-system with a built-in S/PDIF optical out for the CD-Player, meaning that anyone posessing an audio interface with compatible inputs would be able to make digital copies of the music (Although it would be like ripping at 1X). In fact, even soundblaster live has a RCA S/PDIF digital in. Meaning the widely used RCA S/PDIF outs on a lot of gear may just get noticed!
As audio interfaces like the MOTU 828 and the Echo Layla24 become increasingly used in home studios, we all just might have a friend who can very well copy this "uncopyable" CD. My only question, to anyone who can answer this is, would some of the erroneous information be transmitted over the pipe? I would think not... but I don't know enough about it.
Warning: The Creative "Live-Drive" soundcards do NOT have proper SPDIF inputs.
If you don't believe me, here's how I proved it:
I used Sound Forge to create an audio clip consisting of a perfect square wave. Then I used a Turtle Beach FIJI soundcard, with true digital I/O, to record the square wave onto a DAT.
Then I used Sound Forge and the same FIJI soundcard to re-read the audio clip through the digital input.
The result was two identical files, consisting of perfect square waves.
Then I took the same DAT deck over and plugged it into the SPDIF input of a Live Drive, and used Sound Forge on that machine to read in the same square wave audio clip.
The result was not a perfect square wave. There was extensive ringing and noise all over the wave.
It turns out that the Creative hardware's SPDIF input doesn't actually make the uncorrupted digital data available. Instead, it converts the digital signal back to an analog signal, then feeds it into the analog mixer, which is then sampled back into the digital domain. The result is a relatively noisy, corrupted signal.
This is why anyone who really wants SPDIF capability should run screaming from the entire Creative line of soundcards. They simply don't perform as one would expect.
MD uses lossy compression. Is there no MP3 quality setting that compares? There must be.
Early MD devices used ATRAC, with encoding algorithms as powerful as MP2's, at 256 kbps. Recent MD devices use newer ATRAC encoders that match MP3's quality at anywhere from 64 kbps to 256 kbps. But the ATRAC decoder apparently hasn't changed.
I do not have a CD-R based MP3 player so I can't comment, but my geek intuition tells me that since both kinds of devices have spinning media, decoding hardware and audio hardware they will probably have similar battery life.
MPEG audio layer 3 on ISO9660 uses larger discs than the MD system uses. Larger discs have more rotational inertia and require more power to spin. However, a 2 MB anti-skip buffer means that the double-speed CD mechanism needs to spin up the CD only about once a minute or so to pull 1.5 MB of 192 kbps[1] MP3 audio off the disc and keep the buffer at least a quarter full, saving battery power.
[1] 192 kbps average rate MPEG layer 3 audio encoded with LAME sounds transparent compared to stereo 16-bit linear PCM, i.e. most double-blind listeners can't tell which is the CD and which is the MP3. See R3mix for more info.
Will I retire or break 10K?
that would be great, but i don't fucking use windows.
come on - this is slashdot. what were you thinking?
I don't think a lot of people are rushing to download Micheal Jackson's mp3. Like me, if I didn't see this post, I wouldn't have downloaded the mp3 at 196k/s and now am listening to this crapy song over my crapy ass soundcard.
So you see, Jackson's team just wanted to stir a little bit of something, ANYTHING, to get attention. They know all too well that the protection won't work. They just hope that the new young techno savvy kids will download it out of curiosity... after all, all Jackson fans are, what, over 30?
Agreed?
Let's look at this from an economics perspective: marginal cost vs. marginal benefit.
;)). Once this effort is expended, though, it requires no further effort as everyone can make a perfect digital copy.
What is the marginal cost of this new CD protection scheme? People who can't play legitimate copies of CDs they have purchased, the loss of the ability of some people to backup their CD, and the extra expense of licencing this scheme from a company (like how Macrovision is licenced).
What is the marginal benefit of this scheme? Since we know that they can copy the data anyways (since any CD player plays music), we know that at least marignally degraded copies can still be made easily (and who'll notice at 128kbits MP3?). We also know that perfect digital copies can still be made with a little more effort (for those who like higher bitrates
The benefit is so small as to be non-existant, especially compared to the increased base cost of reproduction!
This is not a smart decision. And like the flawed logic that MP3s caused CD sales changes (who here has seen sales data of 10 years with all other factors accounted for so we can see if the responding variable and controlled variable are, in fact, related?), the way the market works should ensure that efforts like these don't last very long -- just make sure to educate people whom you know about this scheme, and hope the distribution method between of artists to art enjoyers changes soon.
--
Internet Explorer (n): Another bug -- that is, a feature that can't be turned off -- in Windows.
Drug paraphernalia, on the other hand, has no purpose other than to facilitate the use of illegal drugs.
20 January 2017: the End of an Error.
Thanks for the post that this artist supports broken formats.
The truth shall set you free!
It's essentially a CD with 2 partitions- a computer partition which your machine reads, and then the audio area. The computer partition is marked in such a way that audio CD players skip it. Getting the audio tracks is simple- just use a ripper with awareness of this extra area (CDRWin comes to mind.)
What we call folk wisdom is often no more than a kind of expedient stupidity.-Edward Abbey
I know that in my proceedings to backup some of my DVDs, I found that a few of them were very difficult to rip properly. They'd all get errors in the decrypted vob files or just be unable to find the "key", but yet my settop DVD player could play them fine. Thoughts?
If God gave us curiosity
Not that I care, I stopped buying music CDs about 9 months ago. Haven't even downloaded a MP3 from MP3.com since "We Must Destroy X10" was released. Hmm... might go do that now.
Even if the encryption is unbreakable, the DMCA doesn't apply, since its unproven if the mp3 is made from data decrypted by the user from the mp3, or if the mp3 is made by using the audio/digital out on the cd player.
Remember, we haven't degraded into automatically assuming everyone is guilty (yet).
Note: with my CD player and my SBLive 5.1 platinum I can make PERFECT copies and mp3's no audio loss and nothing in noise injected.
:-) until they eliminate the high-end digital audio path or force us to buy preamps and amps that have their encryption in it they are wasting time and only making it slightly more inconvient.
I dont care what they do, as long as I can play it on my cd player I can and WILL make mp3's of it.
and if they make a move to the DVD format.. welll I can do it there too
If I can hear it with my ears I will be able to make Excellent copies. and with current stereo technologies I make Perfect copies.
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
So, go buy a copy, and return it claiming that it doesn't work in your computer player. Seriously, if the returns aren't high enough, they'll keep selling this crappy format.
There is no longer anything that can be done with computers that is nontrivial and clearly legal. -- Paul Phillips
Well, I appreciate the correction, but the tone of the correction was a bit rough.
I would consider myself an audiophile in the strict sense that I listen to music (i.e., sit down just to listen to an album), but considering I've used solid-core wire I scavenged from an dorm elevator for speaker wire for years (and currently use dirt cheap Radio Shack speaker wire), I wouldn't begin to consider myself an expert nor sonicly obsessed.
Actually, I knew the correct term was phase, as despite the wire itself, I *do* make an effort to make sure my speakers are wired correctly in phase. Regardless, a good set of headphones, a quiet room, and a good source is something that I derive pleasure from, but I don't think I've ever been accused of being pretentious about it; there's equal fun in blasting Lords of Acid or Violent Femmes out my factory installed Kia speakers (which start to sound like crap 2/3rds of the way up the volume scale) while singing along with a truck full of friends.
I have, however, been accused of being overly serious, but I ascribe that a lack of appreciation of dry humor on the part of the accuser.
--
Evan
"$30 for the One True Ring. $10 each additional ring!" -- JRR "Bob" Tolkien
The CD's still play in a normal cd player right? So someone can take the headphone out and split it to a right and left signal and record it into a nice soundcard to an mp3. There are still ways to make an mp3 of music without having to have the cd in the cd drive. Just food for thought.
I've wondered for a long time what S/PDIF stood for. Obviously I never cared enough to look for an answer. But today one jumped out at me! Thanks!
-Paul Komarek
Sure mate. You might not like his music, but if you seriously think he's got no talent you're an idiot. It's not like he's britney spears and only making money because of his appearance, he's been making music many people love since he was a little kid, who do you think's propping him up? Sure he's a dickhead, sure he may be a dirty old prick, and no, I'd never go to a concert of his, but he's still a very talented entertainer.
Send lawyers, guns, and money!
Sir, you are barking up the wrong tree. Metropolis Records sells for less than CD store prices, online (at http://www.industrial-music.com/)
What we call folk wisdom is often no more than a kind of expedient stupidity.-Edward Abbey
'The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.'
Nowhere in the constitution is government given the right to regulate what chemicals enter my body.