Michael Jackson Releases Uncopyable CD

Derek Jeter writes "NTK.net is reporting in their weekly newsletter that another copy restricted CD has surfaced, this time Michael Jackson's newest single, "Rock Your World". "When loaded into the CD drive, the disc spun continuously as though the drive was trying to access the TOC of a blank or corrupted CDR." Ughh, Doesn't this violoate the Red Book Standard?" I wonder how long before MP3s of this song exist despite the copy protection. So far its just free promotional copies of the single. I tell ya I'm gonna be pissed the first time I buy a CD and discover I can't listen to it in my computer.

Comments

Simple answer to theyre's, Move to new formats

[ZaneMcAuley]

If the record companies are too slow to keep up with the pace of technology, so be it, its they're loss. Move on to new formats. They have to accept that theyre revenue has moved to other non physical formats.

We have a range of various formats, e.g., MP3, WMA, ogg vorbis etc.

Who needs a shiny disk? All it takes up is physical space.

Re:Simple answer to theyre's, Move to new formats

[tundog]

Here's the problem:

If the only purchasble form of a new MJ song is in an 'unbreakable encrypted' version, than any mp3 versions of the song *must* be in violation of the DMCA. Then, they don't even have to prove you cracked it, guilty by induction.

Re:Simple answer to theyre's, Move to new formats

[ZaneMcAuley]

Thats my point, they need to start shipping music in other (non physical) forms. Even if its not mp3, they can still use theyre own protected format.

Would that stop people copying music? Most likely not.
Does the DMCA apply outside the US?

Re:Simple answer to theyre's, Move to new formats

[Forkenhoppen]

DMCA applies in Canada; for the purposes of copyrighted materials that were made in the US, Canada is treated as being domestic to the US.

Re:Simple answer to theyre's, Move to new formats

[ZaneMcAuley]

I store em as MP3 320kb/s VBR and play em on MD for the convience. The choice of physical format.
What would you prefer? CD size or MD size?

MP3 at 320 VBR is good enough for me.

All I am saying is I'd prefer to buy the music on another format except CD for the convience. Its not about piracy its about convience.

Just my own preference.

Re:Simple answer to theyre's, Move to new formats

[ZaneMcAuley]

Who said anything about taking on the RIAA? No me, YOU did. And do you run a spellchecker on every web page you visit?

Re:Simple answer to theyre's, Move to new formats

[archen]

the real problem:

No one is unsure that it is uncopyable because the CD is in a uncopyable format, or because it's uncopyable because no one can stand listening to it.
(In all fairness I haven't listened to it, but MJ doesn't do my sort of music)

Re:Simple answer to theyre's, Move to new formats

[Brynath]

Or Get yourself a DVD player with an optical out,

and a sound card with an optical in,

and forget about the noise due to analog transport

Re:Simple answer to theyre's, Move to new formats

[dasunt]

Even if the encryption is unbreakable, the DMCA doesn't apply, since its unproven if the mp3 is made from data decrypted by the user from the mp3, or if the mp3 is made by using the audio/digital out on the cd player.

Remember, we haven't degraded into automatically assuming everyone is guilty (yet).

Re:Simple answer to theyre's, Move to new formats

[Brad Wilson]

If the only purchasble form of a new MJ song is in an 'unbreakable encrypted' version, than any mp3 versions of the song *must* be in violation of the DMCA.

Nah, just record it analog. Or are they going to say that analog performances and recordings of CDs are in violation of the DMCA? *snicker*

The reality is that people are too lazy to do it the analog way, because it's a lot slower and somewhat labor intensive (record one giant WAV file and split it off into smaller files, or manually record each track, then use a tool to convert WAV to your favorite file form). Whether it's worth it or not is up to you to decide...

Thank god my music tastes are esoteric enough to avoid this sh*t for now.

Re:Simple answer to theyre's, Move to new formats

[A coward on a mouse]

Yes, they do. Copying it by playing it on a super-high fidelity system and then miking the speakers is legal. It is only when you circumvent the *technological* measures intended to provide access and/or copy control that you have violated the DMCA.

What would it take for them to understand

[epsalon]

These measures only hurt legitimate customers. It takes only one h@x0r to bypass the protection on that CD in order to freely share the song as MP3.
This will only make more people copy this song as MP3 so they can play it on their PCs, and will probably cause less people to but the CD. They're really mostly hurting themselves here.

Re:What would it take for them to understand

[ghoti]

It just takes somebody with a CD player that has SP/DIF output, and a soundcard with digital input. No hax0ring required, it's dead simple. And I guess a LOT of people will download that file once it's available - just BECAUSE it is from a copy-protected CD.

Re:What would it take for them to understand

[EvlPenguin]

Well, you _could_ just put it in a normal cd player and connect your sterio's output to your sound card. Sure, it takes more time and effort; but _somoene_ would go through the trouble.

Or, as you say, a hax0r (bored 15-year-old) will probably find a way to do it. I just hope the said hax0r doesn't leave a trail back to him (DMCA, anyone?)

Re:What would it take for them to understand

[hexx]

These measures only hurt legitimate customers. It takes only one h@x0r to bypass the protection on that CD in order to freely share the song as MP3.

I think we need to ask ourselves if the record companies truly don't realize this. My guess is that they understand that copy protecting the CD in this manner won't stop the MP3 from being made Anyone can make an ok mp3 with their normal stereo and a microphone wired to their computer. So what we really need to ask is why the record companies are releasing CD's in this manner.

I believe it is to stop legitimate music owners from making MixCD's and from copying the CD directly. It's obvious that finding and downloading MP3 adds extra steps to the piracy (or backup) process - making redistributing a CD on a real medium (such as CDR) that much more difficult. In fact, if I bought a whole "protected" CD, I would never burn copies for my friends - because it would take fair amount or time and dedication to download *each* track from the CD in *good
So the record companies have likely succeeded in their task of making music piracy (or backups) slightly more complicated for the legitimate CD owner.

Of course, those people who don't buy the CD in the first place, i.e. the habitual music pirate, will not have a more difficult task than they already have with unprotected music, because the music will make it to MP3 format, and fault tolerant CDROM's already exist...

Re:What would it take for them to understand

[dachshund]

So the record companies have likely succeeded in their task of making music piracy (or backups) slightly more complicated for the legitimate CD owner.

Excellent point. On the subject, I wonder what percentage of all music "piracy" is perpetrated by individual buyers through CD duplication. Does it constitute even 5% of their revenue "loss"?

Re:What would it take for them to understand

[epsalon]

But in this case we're talking about a single! Nobody goes on copying a single CD. It's about the same bother to download the MP3 of the single track as it is to copy the CD.
There seems no sense in doing this.

Re:What would it take for them to understand

[BorgDrone]

It's obvious that finding and downloading MP3 adds extra steps to the piracy (or backup) process - making redistributing a CD on a real medium (such as CDR) that much more difficult.

Actually, for me it's easier to not buy the CD at all and just download it from the net.
I can download and burn a CD in less time and with less effort than it takes for me to take my bike to town and buy it in a shop. (and since I don't use real CD's very often, I have to rip that CD after buying it, adding more time)

and then I haven't even started about the costs...

So if record companies want me to buy a CD, they have to make it

• easier, no biking to town in the rain
• faster, not spending half an hour in a record store, looking for that one record (+ travel time)
• cheaper

in other words: why should I pay for something that's harder to get, and takes more time to get. compared to the same product for free.

Re:What would it take for them to understand

[TomL]

you _could_, but that practice is for the most part frowned upon, as the quality degradation due to the use of that method is unacceptable by many mp3 enthusiasts.

Re:What would it take for them to understand

[Mr. Piccolo]

If they really cared about sound quality they wouldn't be using MP3...

Re:What would it take for them to understand

[mini me]

You've got that right. The nearest half-decent music store is an hour's drive away from me. I can download a whole album in say 10 minutes. I can then burn the CD in say 40 minutes (I have an old 2x burner) so that's just 50 minutes. The other way I'd spend 2 hours in travel time and ~30 minutes finding/buying CD. That's 2.5 hours! I think the choice is obvious.

Oh yeah, and during that 50 minutes I only have to spend say 5 minutes (max) to set the computer up to do all of that and I can do something else in the mean time.

Re:What would it take for them to understand

[Rakarra]

Well geez, I guess honesty and honor never factor into your decision. Are you the only one who matters?

Re:What would it take for them to understand

[Technician]

It's pointless to sell music in non-standard formats. This may keep many of my peers from playing it. I'll hear it's not usable on my equipment. Even as a freebie given away for nothing, I will not be able to enjoy it. I won't get to know and like it. I'll have no reason to buy my own copy. Most of my music library I bought while in the service. I bought what others were playing that I liked and wanted to add to my collection. I still enjoy my collection even if half of it is on 12 inch records. I think they want to give away the single to see if the disc can be played by most of the people to see if the new standard will be adopted.

Thanks for the post that this artist supports broken formats.

Re:What would it take for them to understand

[Lumpy]

Note: with my CD player and my SBLive 5.1 platinum I can make PERFECT copies and mp3's no audio loss and nothing in noise injected.

I dont care what they do, as long as I can play it on my cd player I can and WILL make mp3's of it.

and if they make a move to the DVD format.. welll I can do it there too :-) until they eliminate the high-end digital audio path or force us to buy preamps and amps that have their encryption in it they are wasting time and only making it slightly more inconvient.

If I can hear it with my ears I will be able to make Excellent copies. and with current stereo technologies I make Perfect copies.

Re:What would it take for them to understand

[damiam]

There's no sound degradation if you use the digital in/outs of high-end CD players and sound cards.

Re:What would it take for them to understand

[cwiegand]

Except that all the custom-CD machine's producer needs to do is simply "play" into an analog signal, and then record that onto an audio CD. Really, if a human can see/hear something, being analog as we are, it can be re-recorded with minimal loss. I wish companies would figure this out - even my MOM (who is in NO way a techie) knows that if she bought that one machine see saw in the store, she could make custom CDs on her own (instead of coming to me, and having me use my stereo and my sound card's Line In jack).

Re:What would it take for them to understand

[theflamingmoose]

I believe what they are saying is that If the record companies would sell there product in a digital matter (whatever format, as long as it is widely supported) and for a cheaper price, they would buy more music.

PS - Anyone remember what band it was (It was a rap band. Thats all I remember.) that released their album only on zip disk a few years ago?

Re:What would it take for them to understand

[FnordX]

Actually, there is one company that is doing this exact thing.

Emusic has a subscriber site, and for $10 a month, you can get all of the mp3s on their site, and they add new ones each month.

The only problem is their selection is fairly small, and it's mostly indie bands and a few others, but I always check their first to see if any of the music I want can be obtained legally.

Re:What would it take for them to understand

[wampus]

They have They Might Be Giants, and thats good enough for me. They had TMBG's entire new album there six weeks before it was in the store, but I still have a copy coming from Amazon.

Am I the only one who feels like a dickhead playing an mp3 sourced CDR of a band I love?

That's OK.

[Black Parrot]

I don't have any big urge to copy Michael Jackson's CDs anyway.

Re:That's OK.

[efgbr]

Yes, but the CD of your favorite band could be the next.

Not the first CD like this

[vanguard]

There is already a lawsuit out there over this. IANAL but I would guess all they have to do is disclose that it can't be copied on the box and they are covered. If it's labeled and you still buy it then you know what you're buying.

Still, I hope this stuff gets cracked soon. I actually believe that people buy more CDs when they get the MP3 first. That's certainly true for me.

Re:Not the first CD like this

[kusma]

The logical thing to happen should be special CD ROM drives to read these crappy CDs. The CDROM manufacturer's won't want to make drives that can't read all CDs, right?

Re:Not the first CD like this

[ALpaca2500]

i definitely buy less CDs than i did before MP3s because popular. now, i only buy music that i really really like. before, i bought a lot of stuff to sample (granted i usually only bought things i suspected i was gonna like anyway). but now, iif i want to find out if i like something, i download it. and to any people who look down upon illegal MP3 downloads (but this is slashdot, what % of poeple here do, honestly?) i also do emusic. i have a legit supcription, and i've definitly downloaded at least a gig of music from them, which about one third of my napster, limewire, etc. to get on topic, i loathe the idea of copy-protected CDs, becuase the first thing i do when i get a CD is rip it, and put the CD away, for good in most cases. not being able to do it is probably going to make me buy less CDs rather than more. if the RIAA and artists want to do this, they should make software that allows ripping the CD to copy protected files, and burning to copy protected CDs (for mixes, MP3 CDs, etc). until they provide some way for people to use these in the versatile way that is available, people arent going to like it.

Already available by MP3

[epsalon]

The song is already on AudioGalaxy and available for download. They just can't win. Copy protection doesn't work!

Re:Already available by MP3

[Anonymous Coward]

Have you verified that its actually the song?
AG is infamous for having songs incorrectly named usually on purpose on it.
Also if it is the correct song is it a digital rip or an analogue transfer?

Re:Already available by MP3

[well_jung]

It's there, but only in very crappy form. No direct or high quality rips yet. Sounds like some guy with a internal Macintosh microphone and the car stereo from his Pinto.

Getting heavy downloads though.

Re:Already available by MP3

[sapphire42]

Already downloaded from Gnutella, and listened
to it. It was painful, but the quality of sound
was good. ;-) Got two versions, actually, an extended version and the cd version.

Stupid, just stupid.

[jcr]

But then, what should we expect from a major record label?

Remember when businesses tried to *please* their customers?

-jcr

Re:Stupid, just stupid.

[zpengo]

Remember when businesses tried to *please* their customers?

Remember when businesses found out that ripping customers off was more profitable?

The blames lies at least partially with us, for acting like cattle and continuing to support these things. We still buy Nikes, we still use Microsoft, and (some of us, I would imagine) still listen to Michael Jackson.

Re:Stupid, just stupid.

[sconeu]

Remember when businesses tried to *please* their customers?

Remember when businesses found out that ripping customers off was more profitable?

Remember when businesses didn't automatically assume their customers were criminals?

Re:Stupid, just stupid.

[theancient1]

Well, I'm sure nobody is surprised at this boneheaded attempt at stopping MP3, but I might have thought they'd be a little more sensitive than to use the recent terrorist attacks to push their own copy-restricting agenda into law:

Senator Hollings' SSSCA legislation - which makes copy-controlled hardware mandatory (and circumventing it illegal) - has received remarkably little attention since it was revealed ten days ago. No petitions, no EFF Alert (as yet), and very little public uproar.

But according to Andre Hedrick, who publicly fought attempts to put CPRM copy controls into the storage format, the Security Systems Standards and Certification Act provides a perfect platform for the anti-encryption lobby.

He rates the legislation's chance of success as "very high", and even higher after the terrorist atrocities last week.

Hedrick is outraged that the PC industry will foot the bill for protecting Hollywood's assets. [Read More]

I don't seem to remember this one being mentioned on Slashdot at all (and the search function seems to be broken, so I can't go back more than a few days). Maybe everyone has forgotten about it because of recent events.

Re:Stupid, just stupid.

[reflector]

Nike? what's with Nike?

Re:Stupid, just stupid.

[damiam]

It has been on /., and it got > 900 comments.

Re:Stupid, just stupid.

[Rayonic]

> We still wear Nikes, we still use Microsoft, and (some of us, I would imagine) still listen to Michael Jackson.

Any since when do we pay for any of these?

Re:Stupid, just stupid.

[sconeu]

You AC, you ever hear of "Fair Use"? Ever hear of making "Mix CDs"? There are lots of ways to rip/copy CDs that aren't criminal.

So bite me.

If it's audible, it can be copied...

[__aaaaxm1522]

*sigh*

These guys just don't get it. All it takes is one audiophile with a decent sound system, a couple RCA cables, and an MP3 encoder. Sure it'll be an D-A-D job and you'll lose a bit of fidelity on the initial copy, but once that's done, it'll be perfectly preserved, copy after copy after copy after copy.

Copy-protected music just doesn't work, because until we all start carrying around implants in our heads, the data *must* be converted to analog sound, and when that happens, the copy protection convieniently goes away.

Re:If it's audible, it can be copied...

[dboyles]

Why do a d/a or a/d conversion? Just about any CD or DVD player costing more than a few hundred bucks comes with a digital output these days. We just need to take that feed into a soundcard with a digital input. I doubt you could get a bit-for-bit copy, but since most people are compressing to MP3 anyway the difference should be negligible.

As others have mentioned, the other option for fighting this is tearing the plastic wrap off and then demanding a refund because the CD isn't Red Book compliant and won't play in your CD player. In other words, it's defective.

Re:If it's audible, it can be copied...

[zpengo]

Copy-protected music just doesn't work, because until we all start carrying around implants in our heads...

Uh-oh. Someone probably read this and is going to get a raise for bringing it to his boss at the record company this morning.

Re:If it's audible, it can be copied...

[EvilBuu]

That's it! Just distribute the music in a form that can't be heard! Total copy protection.

Re:If it's audible, it can be copied...

[OmegaDan]

There are two s/pdif formats, "Consumer" and "Professional" ... Consumer has something akin to macrovision embeded in it called "SCMS" (serial copy management system). However IIRC its completley up to the device to honor the SCMS protection :)

Re:If it's audible, it can be copied...

[JabberWokky]

something akin to macrovision embeded in it called "SCMS" (serial copy management system).

So *that's* the other copy-protection that I can turn off in my Apex 600A "Loopholes" menu. It just occured to me that just about every $100 DVD player plays CDs and has digital audio out. How does this SCMS work? Anyone?

--
Evan

Re:If it's audible, it can be copied...

[OmegaDan]

The copy protection is just a few reserved bits in the serial frame ... they indicate the "protection" the stream is supposed to recieve, "Original" (copying allowed), "1st Generation" (recieveng device should NOT allow copying), and "No SCMS" (off).

Re:If it's audible, it can be copied...

[Florian Weimer]

You can get bit-for-bit copies from the digital output of your CD player. For debugging a sound card driver, I once recorded some data from a rather dated Kenwood CD player using its digital output, and compared it to the data ripped by a Plextor CD-ROM drivers. Guess what: after synchronizing these data streams, they were identical. (And that despite of the terrible digital jitter introduced by this old CD player!)

Of course, there are problems: If your sound card cannot sync to the external clock provided by the CD player on the signal, some resampling occurs from time to time. The situation gets worse with those popular sound cards based on the AC97 standard: this standard mandates a fixed internal sampling frequency of 48 kHz, so resampling is always required when recording from a CD. Sometimes, this resampling is implemented so poorly that using the analog inputs of the sound card gives better results...

Re:If it's audible, it can be copied...

[jms]

Computer digital soundcards ignore the SCMS settings. Only dedicated digital audio recorders are required to respect the SCMS settings.

Re:If it's audible, it can be copied...

[yoink!]

In fact most professional audio interfaces like will ignore the SCMS bit. I know mine does (although it has a software switchable setting between consumer and professional S/PDIF which, by the way is Sony / Philips Digital Interchange Format).

Re:If it's audible, it can be copied...

[statusbar]

In fact, with a very good low noise cd player (which is 16 bits) and a 24 bit A/D converter you will get a result that is almost perfect - the only possible tiny glitches would be from slight differences in the sample rates.

--jeff

Re:If it's audible, it can be copied...

[Evro]

We just need to take that feed into a soundcard with a digital input

Fortunately, a certain company with a lion's share of the desktop OS market is planning to only allow certain applications to talk to the sound card. They can just make sure that none such applications allow pure digital input.

Let's see how far MS can push before people really get pissed and stop using their products. The moment has been predicted many times in the past and hasn't yet occurred.

Then this will lead to only [non-MS-OS users] creating MP3s and then the RIAA/MPAA will be able to say "These [non-MS-OS users] are pirating our property! Therefore, [non-MS-OS] should be outlawed!" That's the direction things are headed anyway. And now on top of it, with the US going to war, the RIAA/MPAA will probably be able to get a lot of this legislation through congress without a sound since everybody (i.e. the public) will be focused on the war. Why would Joe Shmoe care about some kids' supposed right to illegally copy music? Small details like fair use and people legitimately making MP3s will go unnoticed.

As for your plan to rip off the shrinkwrap and bring the disc back to the store, most stores that I know of will only allow you to exchange a disc for another copy of the same disc. I guess you can stand there and argue about it with them.

Re:If it's audible, it can be copied...

[iamblades]

Or just keep exchanging for the same disc over and over...

Once they lose a massive amount of money, theyll figure it out...

Re:If it's audible, it can be copied...

[dstone]

And that despite of the terrible digital jitter introduced by this old CD player!

If a CD transport falls in the forest and there's nothing analog there to hear it, does it jitter? ;-)

Re:If it's audible, it can be copied...

[adolf]

Oh.

You mean like this switch in ALSA, on my $12 Zoltrix Nightingale sound card with SP/DIF IO:

switch("SPDIF Copyright", false)

Just a thought...

Re:If it's audible, it can be copied...

[damiam]

No - pure silence is easily copyable and can be compressed extremely well.

Re:If it's audible, it can be copied...

[zCyl]

As for your plan to rip off the shrinkwrap and bring the disc back to the store, most stores that I know of will only allow you to exchange a disc for another copy of the same disc. I guess you can stand there and argue about it with them.

You can stand there and argue with them, and that will fail. Then you can demand to see their manager, and that will fail. Then you can demand to see THAT person's manager, and by this point you are very loudly and defiantly demanding that they refund your money for selling you a piece of crap CD, of which none are even CD's because they don't even play in CD drives, and then I guarantee you will get your money back.

No business can afford to lose the amount of face they lose when an extremely irate customer is standing there shouting things that make perfect sense to all the other customers listening. Only the highest managers at a store are authorized to override store policy when they realize how bad their store looks for doing something stupid that all their other customers will look at as "unfair" to the customer.

Capitalism has its faults, but the desire of a company to make a profit can always put power in the hands of the consumer when you use it properly.

Re:If it's audible, it can be copied...

[SonicSpike]

Yes... unfortunately most people do not have the ability or the gear to setup the world clocks, and sync the digital data stream. I think that most non-audiophiles (I happen to be an audio engineer and am very anal-retentive about my sound) will not notice a difference in the A/D conversion.

What'll probably happen is that someone with this equipment will make a digital copy, and then upload it for the rest of the world via the file sharing networks. There are obvious problems in the A/D/A conversion, but nothing that cannot be solved with the right gear, and the correct knowledge.

Re:If it's audible, it can be copied...

[ghostlibrary]

Hi,

Obviously you've never tried to return something at a megastore like, say, Best Buy. I had a computer CDRom. It was broken. They took it into their back room and said "it works on our system" (which, near as I can tell, meant it spun up). I said "it doesn't work on the CDRom you sold me yesterday".

Eventually, the manager simply said "Sorry, we cannot accept an opened return" and went to help another customer. They wouldn't get a 'higher manager', they just say Sorry then ignore you.

I suppose I could have escalated to the point where they called security, but once you're at the point where a) there's no staff helping you and b) the other customers in line are annoyed because your rants are getting in their way, you've lost.

So your plan would go like this: "It doesn't work!" They put it in their store CD, it plays. "Sure it does. Next!"

Sorry to be sobering about reality. Customer service is dead. The mega-stores shut down the local shops, now the mega-stores don't care about individual customers. We sowed it for ourselves.

Re:If it's audible, it can be copied...

[zCyl]

It works on megastores, and it probably works better on them than the smaller stores. Your only problem was you 1, let him walk off without following him, and 2, then gave up and didn't complain to another employee about the faulty product and the unprofessional way you were treated by the first employee.

You're completely right that megastores don't care about individual customers, but you left it as an issue of an unhappy individual customer. It's a serious problem worth their time to deal with when you make a sufficient scene that other customers notice the way they're treating you.

you missed the most important part.

[mt2mb]

now couldn't you just take your time and hook up a regular cd-player to the audio in of the sound card, digitaly record it and compress it? ??? but then you have to ask yourself, who wants a copy of a song from micheal jackson?

Re:you missed the most important part.

[Roofus]

The audio in on your soundcard is typically analog, unless you have a high end card. Considering all of these damn 'copy-protected' CDs we're seeing, it might be a good idea to get one.

God spared you!

[Conspire]

By the grace of God, you were spared. No one should have to listen to Michael Jackson. In fact, I bet that CD player is worth a mint now. I wish my CD players and computers all refused to play any Michael Jackson whatsoever!

Re:God spared you!

[agdv]

I wish my CD players and computers all refused to play any Michael Jackson whatsoever!

That reminds me of walkman I have, with "anti-rolling mechanism." I wonder if Mick Jagger knows his band is being boycotted...

Re:MP#'s already being traded of it

[markbthomas]

Just reply saying:

"You put copy protection on the disc, so there can't be any copies."

;-)

It's been said before, but:

[Glytch]

1. Have high-quality outputs on your stereo.
2. Have high-quality inputs on your sound card.
3. Have high-quality audio cables.

Case closed.

Re:It's been said before, but:

[KingAzzy]

But then its second generation and being the perfectionist that I am that just chaps my hide. Now that we have something to work from, we must diligently begin our attempts to "crack" their little scheme and once this is accomplished we can all point and laugh at them and send press releases to all the news organizations that they are SPNAKED!

Re:It's been said before, but:

[Dreamland]

3. Have high-quality audio cables. You sir, obviously don't know what you are talking about. Audio cables are used for one (1) reason: to conduct an electrical current. As long as the cable kernel is made out of something that does this job (such as copper) then that is as good as it'll get. Buying $200/meter cables with gold coating isn't going to improve sound quality a bit (no pun intended). What it will achieve though, is make you look like a fool for buying them, and make the manufacturers of said rip-off cables laugh all the way to the bank.

Re:It's been said before, but:

[Glytch]

You sir, obviously don't know what you are talking about. Audio cables are used for one (1) reason: to conduct an electrical current. As long as the cable kernel is made out of something that does this job (such as copper) then that is as good as it'll get.

Exactly my fucking point, dimwit. Was I not speaking english or something?

Re:It's been said before, but:

[jeff32]

Agreed. Everyone who has a decent stereo system spends money on cables. I have a pair of $200 cables to connect my cd transport to my D/A converter. They are 6-9s pure silver, gold plated connections. After all, who pays thousands of dollars for a good sounding stereo, and then connects the components with lamp wire??? It would sound like hell. Obviously if you're connecting your $100 RCA reciever to a $90 Sony CD player, you wouldn't buy good cables: you couldn't tell the difference. But with good components you can.

Re:It's been said before, but:

[shepd]

>gold can conduct electricity better than copper.

That is wrong. Gold conducts worse than copper. No matter what any idiot at Circuit City tells you, you cannot defeat physics. The only metal I know of that actually does conduct better than copper is silver.

If you want the _most_ ultimate cable, it will be made of silver. Too bad most audiophiles think $100 OFC cables are better, because they're wrong. Of course, because they are uninformed of the conductivity of metals, and because the people selling the cables are also mis-informed, you don't see Silver cables too often.

Anyways, the connectors are gold plated because gold doesn't corrode. They actually cause more sound degradation than you would get if you soldered some coax straight to the audio connectors on the device.

If the connectors are pure gold, you have a very crappy cable indeed. :)

>Quality ground braids are essential near a computer.

Yup. So make your own cable. You want the best?

Buy some bulk RG-6 satellilte TV cable. Get some RCA plugs (I suggest gold plated because you don't want corrosion!). Solder. The 75 Ohm impedance of RG-6 cable is perfectly compatible with audio cable.

Now you have the very best audio cable ever made.

Total cost: $0.20/ft for the cable, $6 total for the four connectors.

BTW: I use $2 el-cheapo cables because I don't have them near the computer, and because a 20 khz signal doesn't warrant anything better. YMMV.

Oh, and I use unsheilded cable for my computer's audio out (it's digital SPDIF out so it either works, works intermittently, or doesn't work at all. It sounds fine, but cuts out for a moment whenever the furnace turns on. Damn thing virtually outputs a mini EMP,).

I do, however, use RG-6 cable for the TV. When you start getting into Mhz, you must have better cable.

Re:It's been said before, but:

[Telek]

The reason why they use gold plating is because it doesn't rust or tarnish. Copper and silver do, thus degrading the connections over time. (as you mentioned)

You could use a wire from a twisted pair if you want, but where the quality comes in is: (a) defeating or blocking interferance and (b) the connections between the wires. If you have a shitty connection, you'll also get some signal reflection which will give undesired results. So those $100 cables at Circuit City have most likely been tested to the nines and are, in fact, better than most $15 cables, provided that you live in an extremely noisy environment and have a $5000 stereo system. But for most people who have a 100ft lengths was pretty easy (not to mention inexpensive too). I did, however, have to make a ground noise inhibitor on the TV side (fscking cable co's), but after that all was good.

Re:It's been said before, but:

[jrockway]

Well, the best way of transferring sound is optically. Light is light, unaffected by interference ;)

I have a USB->Optical connected right to my stereo. Not analog until it goes through the D/A converter. It even works with Linux!

(Two things that bug me though:
1. when I move my mouse, I get clicks in the audiostream [from switching from high to low speed transfer? my rio doesn't do a thing to the stream, go figure]

2. no way of getting raw data into the card (the driver resamples everything to PCM)
)

Re:It's been said before, but:

[Black Acid]

You are correct. The resistivities of common metals at room temperature:

Element Electrical resistivity (microohm-cm)

Silver 1.586
Copper 1.678
Gold 2.24
Aluminum 2.655
Platinum 10.5

Source: http://www.epanorama.net/documents/wiring/wire_res istance.html

Re:It's been said before, but:

[Tim Doran]

The reason why they use gold plating is because it doesn't rust or tarnish...

Right. Plus, gold is nice and soft and makes a good connection when inserted into a socket.

Re:It's been said before, but:

[shepd]

>I have a USB->Optical connected right to my stereo.

Hey, this sounds pretty cool. What's the name of this little gem?

As far as the mouse goes, if its USB I suppose it could be the speed transfer difference (but that would be sorta lame, no?). Try the mouse on a separate USB root hub, or see if a PS/2 mouse clears up the problem (although I'm sure you thought of those ideas already).

Re:It's been said before, but:

[jrockway]

It's an XITEL MD Port DG-2 and works great with Linux (/dev/dsp1). As for other bus/PS2 mouse, i have an early iMac, so that's out. I assume it's a software issue because it works fine on a friend's machine (but it's UHCI not OHCI, so I dunno)

Well, it is a promo

[DeadMeat (TM)]

Unless I'm mistaken, promo = what they hand out early to radio stations. My guess is they're trying to avoid tech-savvy DJs distributing MP3s of the song over Gnutella & Co. before the general public can get to it.

Not that that justifies what they're doing, but it suggests they might be less likely to do it to end-user copies.

Re:Well, it is a promo

[ONU CS Geek]

Do you know how many radio stations actually *play* CD's anymore? At Every Radio Station I've worked at, CD's come in, get dumped into a computer, and you play the CD's from there. Most record companies know this, and some even offer us our files music already encoded on CD-ROM.
IMHO, if the record companies did this to the radio stations, they would shoot themselves in the foot big time.

Re:Well, it is a promo

[hearingaid]

That might be true. However, it ignores a simple fact.

Most radio stations these days have DAT decks, and industrial-quality ones at that. Press record on the DAT, take it home, and rip. Oh, so hard. (Lots of DJs tape their shows this way: and yes, lots of DJs have home DAT decks, precisely for this reason.)

Trying to use technological means to stop DJs from being pirates is like trying to use a vaccuum cleaner to stop the Pacific Ocean from being wet. You're going to need a really big one. ;)

Re:Well, it is a promo

[richieb]

But if its a promo then the more people hear it the better. No? Is this new type of marketing, hide the product from potential customers?

...richie

Micheal Jackson... Like I care...

[A Commentor]

If it was someone like NIN, it would be news worthy, but does any here really care about Micheal Jackson...

Re:Micheal Jackson... Like I care...

[zpengo]

If it was someone like NIN, it would be news worthy, but does any here really care about Micheal Jackson...

That's funny, I lump NIN into the same "preteen rubbish" category that Michael Jackson goes into.

Listen to some real music someday.

Re:Micheal Jackson... Like I care...

[G-funk]

Hahahahahahahaha!

"Ooooh, life's so hard, being 16, white, and upper-middle-class, only trent and marylin know how I feel."

Sorry, I don't listen to anything michael jackson produced after smooth criminal (i love that clip) but at least he has talent.

Re:Micheal Jackson... Like I care...

[DrClownius]

You mean the Smashing Pumpkins since they broke up, nearly a year ago now?

Re:Micheal Jackson... Like I care...

[Legion303]

That's funny, I lump NIN into the same "preteen rubbish" category that Michael Jackson goes into.

Listen to some real music someday.

That's funny, all music is subjective.

Get a clue someday.

-Legion

Re:Micheal Jackson... Like I care...

[JabberWokky]

That's funny, I lump NIN into the same "preteen rubbish" category that Michael Jackson goes into.

The number one station on Live365 (which is a very large internet MP3 broadcasting company, for those that don't know - lost of "Shoutcast" stations are hosted on Live365) is Pop R&B, which would include Michael Jackson, so it's arguable that he's one of the most listened to artists on the net. I know that when I did a search on Napster in their glory days, there were ridiculous numbers of full albums.

I'm not a tremendous fan of MJ - I was compiling an 80's Pop CD for the setting background music for a RPG, but he has plenty of various fans, and listening to "Beat It" and "Billie Jean" threw me back to when those were on heavy FM rotation.

My point is - Michael Jackson is still a major artist, and his using copy protection on a CD is major news. Somewhat lessened by the fact that this is a promo CD (which, if for radio play, makes no sense whatsoever, since radio stations rip all CDs to a computerized digital jukebox).

As for NIN - I liked Reznor's early, more experimental stuff (broken/fixed were his best, IMHO), but much of it involved things like sterio effects being 90 degrees out of sync and other exteremely suble, easily lost sonic experiments. Some of it is lost when it goes to CD, let alone compressed into MP3. I've been meaning to dig out my nice headphones, rip to 320kbps, and see if those little nuances are even there post-rip.

--
Evan

Re:Micheal Jackson... Like I care...

[motherhead]

It is kind of interesting that, no matter how you feel about Michael Jackson or country music, the first two grievous instances of this half-ass copy protection appeared on both.

I just have to think that (though everyone shares and collects mp3s) the target demographic for Michael Jackson and most country artists would be more inclined to have to own the shrink wrap then to rip it and share it.

Okay I realize that moms and dads can have junior "make a copy" of this or that for Auntie Sadie or whoever... but think about (shitty) bands like "slipknot" that target the kinder. You know that every 14 year old in Iowa with CDex is mass ripping on a gargantuan scale...

I wonders why? Does Michael think that he can't make up for the infinitesimal loss of revenue because he is not allowed to tour anymore? I dunno.

Re:Micheal Jackson... Like I care...

[JabberWokky]

Oh! Mr Pretentious Audophile D00d, may I sux0r your dick until it's 90 degrees out of "sync"? (The word is "phase", moron)

Well, I appreciate the correction, but the tone of the correction was a bit rough.

I would consider myself an audiophile in the strict sense that I listen to music (i.e., sit down just to listen to an album), but considering I've used solid-core wire I scavenged from an dorm elevator for speaker wire for years (and currently use dirt cheap Radio Shack speaker wire), I wouldn't begin to consider myself an expert nor sonicly obsessed.

Actually, I knew the correct term was phase, as despite the wire itself, I *do* make an effort to make sure my speakers are wired correctly in phase. Regardless, a good set of headphones, a quiet room, and a good source is something that I derive pleasure from, but I don't think I've ever been accused of being pretentious about it; there's equal fun in blasting Lords of Acid or Violent Femmes out my factory installed Kia speakers (which start to sound like crap 2/3rds of the way up the volume scale) while singing along with a truck full of friends.

I have, however, been accused of being overly serious, but I ascribe that a lack of appreciation of dry humor on the part of the accuser.

--
Evan

Re:Micheal Jackson... Like I care...

[G-funk]

Sure mate. You might not like his music, but if you seriously think he's got no talent you're an idiot. It's not like he's britney spears and only making money because of his appearance, he's been making music many people love since he was a little kid, who do you think's propping him up? Sure he's a dickhead, sure he may be a dirty old prick, and no, I'd never go to a concert of his, but he's still a very talented entertainer.

I'll be cracking the Michael Jackson CD later toda

[Karl Cocknozzle]

All though it's a shame to give my good money to child-molesting Michael Jackson, anything for science!

My procedure will be:

1) Plug my regular CD player audio output into computer audio input.
2) Launch your favorite free audio recorder/editor. Hit record.
3) Press play on CD.
4) Enjoy (if possibble).

And I didn't even break a sweat.

A natural progression...

[smugfunt]

... he's been releasing unlistenable CDs for years.

Bad CD..

[Jenova]

"When loaded into the CD drive, the disc spun continuously as though the drive was trying to access the TOC of a blank or corrupted CDR.."

I hope that won't damage my CD drive. Someone better post some instruction on how to correct this, preferbly on a new clean CDR...

Oh heck. I'll just skip buying this CD(or listening to the song). Time to save some money.

That is why

[boobert]

I have a Cd player with an optical out and a sound card with an optical in :)

Huh?

[rbeattie]

A 15 second search on Gnutella found hundreds of copies of this song. I don't know if they're "digitially pure" but they're available.

-Russ

Re:Huh?

[characterZer0]

"digitally pure" mp3 is like a "visually pure" postcard-photograph of the Mona Lisa

This just in...

[neema]

Reportedly, the two people that wanted to rip the CD were disappointed.

Circumvention Device

[cs668]

I thought about this wrt the DMCA. This would make my Sony CD Player a Circumvention Device.

Ironic that a company that wants this legislation makes a device that could be considered illegal under it.

Re:Circumvention Device

[MemeRot]

This cd isn't encrypted. It's just wildly out of whack with the standard format your cdr drive expects. If it can be played in an audio cd player, this scheme cannot be considered to 'effectively limit access', so it doesn't meet the requirements of the DMCA. Making railing against the acknowledged evils of the DMCA a moot point here.

Already happened

[scooby-doo]

I saw the mp3 up for download atleast 5 days ago. Obviously the technoogy really worked :P

News Update

[zpengo]

The latest research has discovered that in addition to being uncopyable, Michael Jackson's new CD is also unlistenable. Purchases report little more than high-pitch squeaks, scratches, murmurs and the occasional "hoo!".

Easy to crack anyway

[evilmonkey_666]

Just stick it into an old CD player that has analog out, then feed it into your sound card, record as raw PCM and encode to mp3 or whatever!!!

So long as you don't have a crap sound card with lots of noise, noone will notice the difference.

They are wasting time and money, and will only end up pissing of ligitimate customers, while the rest of us will continue to share music as normal.

king of poop

[Alien54]

The song is already on AudioGalaxy and available for download.

Just how hard is it to run a set of patch cables? The performance loss is far less than what you get on MP3 as it is.

And besides, I can see some audio geek in a pro studio getting pissed off at the king of poop, and making a copy just to screw with him

Re:king of poop

[OmegaDan]

Just how hard is it to run a set of patch cables? The performance loss is far less than what you get on MP3 as it is.

Back in 86 I had by all rights one of the first cd players to come out, a Magnavox (IIRC) that had a "digital out" on the back (coaxil s/pdif). I used it until a belt broke in early 2000. I had no clue what the s/pdif was for most of the time I owned it, but I can't help thinking what an awesome tool that would be for making mp3s!

Re:king of poop

[ameoba]

Not quite. Even with a digital output, the audio would have still passed through the whole error-correction/filtering process. The significant advantage of doing raw digital audio extraction instead of playing the CD is that your wave data is (hopefully) pulled off exactly as it is on the disk, as opposed to just-good-enough-to-play-it-this-time.

Re:king of poop

[Jace of Fuse!]

The significant advantage of doing raw digital audio extraction instead of playing the CD is that your wave data is (hopefully) pulled off exactly as it is on the disk, as opposed to just-good-enough-to-play-it-this-time.

As true as that certianly is -- using a direct digital conection of that type is one method of copying a CD that they will never be able to stop without making CD's imposible to listen to in the first place.

Re:king of poop

[meatspray]

i have enough equipment to go digital from the cd deck all the way back to the digital in on the sound card, hmmmmmmmmmm.

It's all about content

[andy@petdance.com]

Clearly, the majors have found the secret to making an uncopyable CD: Make it something that nobody would want to copy.

Michael Jackson is such a prime example of someone who just needs to pack it in and stay at home.

Re:It's all about content

[Picass0]

Clearly, the majors have found the secret to making an uncopyable CD: Make it something that nobody would want to copy.
That's funny (and true). Wish I had mod points right now.

Re:It's all about content

[dachshund]

Napster has the same basic appeal of left-wing politics: free candy for everyone

It's an interesting article. It's unfortunate that the author couldn't keep his politics out of it. It would have given him a lot more credibility to talk about the music industry.

Re:It's all about content

[Rakarra]

Clearly, the majors have found the secret to making an uncopyable CD: Make it something that nobody would want to copy.

Metallica is already way ahead of you!

Re:It's all about content

[Thugwold]

> just needs to pack it in and stay at home
---------------
I think "packing it in" is what got him into trouble in the first place. ]8-}

Re:It's all about content

[Tony-A]

Looks like CDs are going the way of the 8-track tape.

Re:I'll be cracking the Michael Jackson CD later t

[mgt]

sure you could, but i don't that so many people have digital out on their regular cd player and digital in on their soundcard.

Of course.. if you are going to trash the tunes by mp3'it maybe it does not matter..

Give me 6 minutes...

[Wonko the Sane 42]

How naive are they thinking that can ever work? Anyone that either has a) a way of recording a stereo signal or b) a way of splitting a stereo out in to two mono outs, recording both and splicing them together can just record the CD to digital and encode to MP3 from there. I use the former method to digitize mix tapes for people all the time...each song takes about 1.5 times it's length to do...oooh...what a barrier!

Re:Give me 6 minutes...

[Wonko the Sane 42]

Oh...and to add to that...most people's solution of just running to the line-in on a sound card won't work because it's mono and you'll lose the entire left channel. So you have to take a couple extra steps and have a few extra cables (ie a 3.5 mm stereo - dual 3.5 mm [or 1/4" TRS, depending on how many toys you have on your machine] mono or single RCA - 3.5 mm mono, etc). Nevertheless, there's plenty of us that have a dedicated input on our mixers for digitizing tapes and/or CD's that give us shit ;-)

Re:Give me 6 minutes...

[Wonko the Sane 42]

Oh yeah...and a third thing I missed. I wanted to address someone's argument that you lose fidelity when you take a signal and go from digital to analog to digital. The argument here seems to be more about whether or not we can make an MP3 out of the CD, more than getting a "perfect copy". Even if your system isn't good, it's probably better than the quality limitations of 128 kb/s MP3. And at least on my system, the signal-noise ratios across every piece of equipment are as close to perfect as makes a difference, and the DAW I use to grab analog to digital will sample at 96 KHz, which won't lose anything off the sampled signal. So even going A-D-A, you can get copies that are so near to perfect that a human ear would never be able to tell the difference. Just a thought.

the single was ripped a while ago

[alien88]

08-28-2001 Michael_Jackson-You_Rock_My_World(Cd_Single)-2001- RNS

Michael Jackson?

[dsb3]

> I tell ya I'm gonna be pissed the first time I buy a CD and discover I can't listen to it in my computer

I'll be more pissed the first time I buy a CD and discover I bought one by Michael Jackson. <shudder>

uncopyable? bs.

[Double A]

...getting old, but you could copy it thru either the digital cables or the analog cables onto your comp and then burn it ... this is just an annoyance for informed consumers.

boooooooo-urns.

Warning labels?

[secolactico]

I tell ya I'm gonna be pissed the first time I buy a CD and discover I can't listen to it in my computer.

They better put a warning label on those cds. If I buy a cd that can't play on my computer, I'll just return it as defective.

OTOH, if they state on a label that "This CD has been modified and might not work on all PC cd players", caveat emptor.

Re:Warning labels?

[jrockway]

They can't put that "Compact Disc Digital Audio" logo on it either. If this CD has it, there can be a lawsuit.

Possible marketing tactic?

[z0mbie78]

This seems like a marketing tactic to me. You think that Jackson is smart enough to trick all us geeks into buying his CD just to try to crack it?

Edit: KIng of FLOP Releases Unsellable CD

[tenzig_112]

One wonders what former superstars would do if they could not take solace in the Napster myth when their subsequent records fail to sell well.

"Everyone who can still fill a stadium please step forward. Not so fast, Mr. Jackson."

"All non-pedophiles please step forward. Not so fast, Mr. Jackson."

Re:Edit: KIng of FLOP Releases Unsellable CD

[Pope]

"Everyone who can sell out a $2500/seat birthday party and have Brando act like an idiot please step forward. Ah, Mr. Jackson, so nice to see you again."

Re:Edit: KIng of FLOP Releases Unsellable CD

[franksbiyatch]

Ha ha! That was funny. You are so funny, I wonder why you're not running your own site and why you're posting anonymously.

That was so funny. You said that guy's site was "shitty." Seriously, I'd love to read anything you've written. If it's anywhere near as witty as your post, it would have to be brilliant.

Just don't support them

[fredbsd]

Ya know, it's pretty easy to get your message across to the record companies. Don't buy CD's. Find a better hobby than listening to music.

These guys only care about money. Hit them where is hurts, the wallet.

You do have the choice whether or not you support the music industry.

Just a thought.

-Fred

Re:Just don't support them

[klmth]

A better hoppy than listening to music? You must be joking. I'm hard pressed to find anything as intense and satisfying as great music.

Not all record labels are in it for the money. Go ahead and check your local record stores, and you're bound to find some stores with vinyl records and recent releases from a horde of indie labels.

Support your local bands, and go to gigs. You'll find a band you like, and you'll be content, since you can see them live more often than you'd ever see any major act.

Do something about it

[pcgamez]

Go to your local store...purchase it.

return it the next day and say it does not work....if they give you another, come back again and say it does not work

When stores realise how annoying it is, they may do something about it.

Re:Do something about it

[kusma]

And also, complain to Microsoft that the CD player that comes with Windows can't play that CD.
Try to use the power of Microsoft to tell the record industry you're pissed off.

Re:Do something about it

[Phexro]

that would be great, but i don't fucking use windows.

come on - this is slashdot. what were you thinking?

Re:Do something about it

[groomio]

I just want to say that, as much as you'd like to, it's not the shop's fault! (Unless it's HMV or something evil like that). I work in a little record store in my home town, and so many customers come in and blame us for the crap that the record labels force upon us.

Won't stop much

[blakestah]

Take a CD player with digital outputs, and a sound card with digital inputs.

La Voila.

Michael Jackson is the King of Pop

[DerOle]

nuff said

The next thing the record industry will give us...

[kusma]

... is the CD that automatically self-destructs after you've listened to it.

No offense MJ, but...

[yzquxnet]

I don't want to pick on Mr. Jackson but, he hasn't come out with a decent song in what seems like a decade! He hasn't had any recent songs that were worth copying to mp3. You have to go all the way back to the days of songs like 'Thriller'.

Sorry Jackson, but you suck now.

This is very bad

[alsta]

The SSSCA will most likely pass and will be a formidable parter to the DMCA in order to restrict Fair Use and other Consumer rights. This is just a preamble.

All CDs will be encrypted with some type of Microsoft Windows XP clearing house mechanism that verifies a signature to see if you really did PAY for your CD. If the signature is already registered or perhaps doesn't match some type of logic, an automatic message will go to the FBI to arrest the criminal who is screwing the poor RIIA out of their hard earned money.

No matter of course if the mechanism they come up with is inadequate and has many innocent people arrested because their stuff doesn't work. They want to see as many sinners as possible be jailed. Intimidation tactics - same as we're trying with the Taliban. "If you're not with us, you're with them..."

And the worst thing is that Americans will let this happen and be proud of it. This is harm that will take tramendous effort to undo, if at all possible.

Alex

MP3 has already been released

[Townshend]

That doesn't matter too much, the MP3 has been out there for about a month now. Oops.

All the more reason

[Pope]

To buy the new Plunderphonics box set!

Re:All the more reason

[jeffehobbs]

If you follow that link from above, you can actually download all corresponding mp3 and WAV files of the original not-legally-available-anymore "plunderphonics" album. It's still one of the best examples of making "original" music using a sampler ever recorded.

Stand out tracks include Oswald's Metallica remix "Net" and Beatles remix "Birth". Also don't miss the James Brown remix "Brown". ~jeff

Re:All the more reason

[Pope]

if you follow that link from above, you can actually download all corresponding mp3 and WAV files

That's why I linked directly to that page :) I guess I should have made the connection clearer. "Net" kicks butt!

boycott music industry

[userunknown]

I personally have boycotted the recording industry, I will not buy any new CD's unti an acceptable resolution is established. This includes a repeal of the DMCA

Besides these days anyone can get nearly any music they want for free, this is leverage that we should use to remind them we do not HAVE to buy their music, they must make us want to.

-Mark

Re:boycott music industry

[klmth]

Better yet, buy albums by indie artists. Not a dime is going to land in the pocket of the RIAA.

Re:boycott music industry

[hardburlyboogerman]

Amen,Bro.

Sue them!

[epsalon]

They're trafficing in a circumvention device. Under the DMCA they are facing criminal punishment.

Re:Sue them!

[Stonehand]

Only if it's sold are marketed primarily as a circumvention device, which isn't what they're doing.

Of course, if you try to sell your own, and suggest this as a major feature, then you would be violating the law. But Sony isn't, yet.

Re:Sue them!

[mark_lybarger]

that is so true, but so insainly wrong.

you can walk into a "head" shop around any campus and buy plenty of items which "could" be illegal, and I believe that if you mention to the store owners that you intend to use their products for non-legal uses, then they're not suppose to sell it to you. who puts tobacco in those fancy things anyway?

what about those "legal" cable tv boxes? we're all aloud to own our own cable box right? we don't have to rent the box from the local cable company. i guess if i don't buy my digital cable box from a company who advertises that i could use it to descramble copyright material, then it's ok?

if i walk into compUSA and tell the sales clerk i'm going to use the new CDRW drive i'm buying there to make mass copies if all my friends music/data cd's, should they cancel the sale?

how about when i tell the auto salesman that i plan to be driving 90 mph in the car he's selling me?
at what point does my intent, or the sellers intent on the sale make the sale illegal?

Re:Sue them!

[jrockway]

Hey! Stop thinking! That's illegal now. Just do what the government^W big companies say and you'll be fine. They know what you want. That's to be fucked up the ass! So bend over and take it like a man!

When that happens, return it

[krogoth]

If you buy it and can't listen to it, return it. Make sure to mention you can't listen to it in your computer. If they do something stupid and this starts to happen, they might get the message.

Re:Uncopyable

[lotion]

Thank god! The less CD's out there the better!

This really annoys me.

[Da w00t]

Do I own a cd player? No. I own a PC that I use to rip my cds to mp3 LEGALLY, and then use a creative nomad to play mp3s. Now this means I have to shell out another $100 to buy a decent cd player. Thanks.

Re:This really annoys me.

[IronChef]

I own a PC that I use to rip my cds to mp3 LEGALLY...

The really offensive thing, besides the MJ music, is they just changed the definition of "legal" on us. You have the right to rip your CDs, but under the DMCA the publisher also has the right to stop you from doing so, and his right trumps your right.

I'm waiting for DVDs that won't play in computers next. It's only a matter of time.

It's already on AudioGalaxy.com

[thilmony]

Also, software would bypass this "protection" very easily. I'm no expert, but can't you just tell the cd driver where to look to play the song, rather than rely on it to auto-detect what it's supposed to do?

what irony!

[Prothonotar]

How ironic that a "free promotional" CD would prevent users from listening to it, much less copy it. You'd think if you were giving out promotional material, you would want it to be spread the furthest you could.

What idiots.

It probably does violate the Red Book standard...

[dpbsmith]

...but where on the CD case does it say that it conforms? As a matter of curiosity, does this CD actually have the "Compact Disc--Digital Audio" logo on it? Even if it does, does this mean that it complies with the standard--or does it mean only that it will play on players that comply with the standard?

I used to wonder about the companies that broadcast scrambled pay-content over regular television broadcast channels. Weren't THEY violating FCC standards by transmitting a non-NTSC-compliant signal? Didn't seem to matter...

As for PC vendors, they've been playing fast and loose with standards for ages. I remember first getting into this with people that kept insisting (incorrectly) that the Apple ][ generated NTSC video. Apple in fact had a carefully worded but misleading statement that said something like "the video is designed to be viewed on monitors that comply with the NTSC standard." That is, the signal was (way) outside the NTSC standard, but the NTSC standard for MONITORS requires them to be very tolerant...

I keep hearing horror stories from DVD enthusiasts. Apparently, in this year of our Lord 2001, it's not at all rare to find DVD X that plays in player A but not player B... and DVD Y that plays in player B but not player A. Not because of copy-protection or anything like that. Just because of bad standards, lame engineering, and NO watchdogs.

You know the sort of thing... the standard may say you can do thus-and-such, but very few DVD's actually do it, so lots of DVD players can get away with not implementing it quite right...

Michael Jackson Releases Unplayable CD

[Anonymous Coward]

but no one noticed....

Simple Solution

[goodwid]

CmdrTaco: I tell ya I'm gonna be pissed the first time I buy a CD and discover I can't listen to it in my computer.

There's an easy way around this. Do what I do, just don't buy audio CDs. I've found that I just plain don't miss them.

Re:Simple Solution

[jrockway]

Amen! But by the time LimeWire finishes starting up, I could have gone to the CD store and bought the CD. *sigh*

What about Sony's own CD recorder?

[Zach Baker]

So what happens when a it's recorded onto another CD with one of Sony's consumer CD recorders? Does it produce a normal CD without that wacko formatting, or does the little LED display read "OWN3D"?

TOC errors

[Animats]

When loaded into the CD drive, the disc spun continuously as though the drive was trying to access the TOC of a blank or corrupted CDR.

Then this is something different than simply storing data with an invalid CRC. This is an error in the TOC.

I wonder if this disc will also fail to play in some of the fancier auto sound systems with changers, the ones that pre-read all the TOCs to build a playlist.

fuck best buy

[psychalgia]

I tell ya I'm gonna be pissed the first time I buy a CD and discover I can't listen to it in my computer.

mine would go right back to the store, all they're doing is proving that we should listen to indie-artists who cant afford this BS, and for every MP3 distroed they get half a cd sale. Michael hasnt been played in this house in 10 years anyway

Un-copy-able ? yeah right

[goto gosub]

I've seen the track on all P2P networks for at least one month.

Listening to it right now. hehe

Past efforts at making un-copy-able cd's failed flat.

I was able to copy/rip under windoze using CloneCD (www.elby.org) and that hacked cdfs.vxd (url escapes me right now) which enable you to access the audio tracks as .wav files directly (as .cda files)...

Record lables can just as well forget it. Even less-than-l33t hax0r-wannabees can bypass the sad'n'sorry attempts af un-copy-able cd's that I've seen so far.

ONE

News for nerds?

[Zero__Kelvin]

So when did Michael Jackson stop developing software methodologies and start doing pop music? (true nerds know that along with Ed Yourdan, Larry Constantine, Grady Booch, James Rumbaugh and the rest, you will find Michael Jackson the methodologist)

Opposite problem for me

[foldedspace]

I bought a CD from MP3.com and it will only play in my CD-ROM drive. The CD is a hybrid format with some Windows only CD player attached to autoplay. All of my CD players choke on it, thinking it's a bad CD.

Re:Opposite problem for me

[foldedspace]

No, I'm not planning on returning it. I did mail them a note complaining about it. Since I can listen to it (on the computer) and I want it, I'm not going to return it unless they can send me a normal version to replace it. The artist is an "indy" and deserves the money. This CD has better music than Michael Jackson's music.

Re:Uncopyable

[mikepsych283]

I am truly shocked that no one has begin suing these idiots, but i have made it my calling to fuel the mp3 community and sorry michael ur song is already out there in MP3 form . So keep up the bad work monkey boy. Look for it on Morpheus

Copy protection has always been about that.

[Perianwyr Stormcrow]

Nasty copy protection on C64 games often made it impossible to back up the flakey 5 1/4 disks they came on. That is, unless you went to your local pirate BBS and got yourself a copy of the latest patch. Those who did this enjoyed their games as long as they liked. Those who did not were stuck whining when their favorite game ate it after being shoved into and pulled out of the 1541 drive too many times.

The same applies today with music. I was listening to one of my VNV Nation CD backups the other day, and it started skipping. This happened to be a limited edition- it would have been very hard to replace had that been the real CD I'd bought all scratched up and skipping like that. But I was able to go home and make another, then toss out the busted one. Good stuff!

I protect my investment. My CD investment is quite substantial- over 250 CDs last time I checked... and all the ones that get real use from me get burned to copies. I wouldn't shed a tear if my CD case fell off a boat or got lost or whatever while I travel these days, since it's all burned backups. I wonder how people will get by in the future?

Re:Copy protection has always been about that.

[Morbid Curiosity]

The same applies today with music. I was listening to one of my VNV Nation CD backups the other day, and it started skipping. This happened to be a limited edition- it would have been very hard to replace had that been the real CD I'd bought all scratched up and skipping like that. But I was able to go home and make another, then toss out the busted one. Good stuff!

Quite apart from damage to the original media, another point is security. Recently some friends of mine were burgled, and close to 500 CDs were stolen from their three collections. Quite a lot of rare, obscure or just damned-difficult-to-get-in-this-country was taken. One of those guys has recently bought a CD writer, so that he can make copies of CDs to listen to, and store the rest at a secure location in a better neighbourhood. Protecting an investment of thousands of dollars (CDs cost on average about $35, here), where the dollar value of your insurance still won't bring back what you've lost, is fair use if you ask me.

Another case I can think of is a DJ I know who had a large number of CDs stolen from the back of his car in a smash-and-grab a few months back. That music was his livelihood, not just a leisure item. He had to beg and borrow a lot of stuff just to keep working. This kind of thing can be avoided if you have the capability to make backups.

Oh, and VNV Nation are pretty damned nifty, aren't they? Having been sent a few MP3s by friends on the net, and downloading samples off their website, I'm considering tracking down a distributor and importing a few of their CDs. Even though it's likely to cost me about $50 a pop. How weird is that?

Get a better CD-ROM drive

[heroine]

The Pioneer DVD-ROM drives can usually handle more CD's than others. The Ricos are really bad. Creative Labs have trouble ejecting. Just because a particular CD-ROM drive stops working doesn't mean big business is taking away individual freedom by copy protecting CD's.

um, what?

[rograndom]

So far its just free promotional copies of the single.

Record Company: This new copy protection method will ensure that nobody is getting a "free ride" with the new Michael Jackson single.

Person with common sense: Aren't you giving away the single for free anyways?

Record Compnay: Ummmmmmm....

Re:um, what?

[K8Fan]

The silly part is that the cost of these promotional copies does NOT come out of the record companies share of the royalties, but out of Jackson's.

But it is mega-stupid. I attend the National Association of Broadcasters show every year, and a huge percentage of broadcasters are playing back from hard disk. Actually employing some talking monkey to put the new Jacko single in a CD player every 15 minutes would just cut into profits. Instead, they rip it to a Broadcast WAV file (although, given the amount of compression that is going to be applied at the transmitter, they might as well rip it to a 96k MP3)

This is going to snap back into their faces so hard...

Re:um, what?

[GrenDel Fuego]

Actually, it makes perfect sense to me.

This allows them to judge consumer reaction to the protected CDs without having to reimburse any cash to people who complain.

Re:um, what?

[swordgeek]

Unfortunately, it won't work. People are going to get this FREE promo CD, find that it doesn't work, and chuck the damned thing away. Probably less than 1/10th as many people would complain to the company as if they'd paid for it.

Re:um, what?

[armb]

> People are going to get this FREE promo CD, find that it doesn't work, and chuck the damned thing away.

So they'll be able to say "it was a success, we had hardly any complaints". And then when they release a non-free CD and get complaints they'll say "We tested the protection scheme before and it doesn't cause problems, and this CD plays on the player here in the store, so no you can't have a refund just because it doesn't work in your player at home or in your car. In fact if you don't stop complaining and putting off our other customers we'll say you must have been trying to pirate it to even realize it was protected and call the cops"

Whew...

[Swaffs]

"Michael Jackson Releases Uncopyable CD"

Thank god!

War of Attrition

[brundlefly]

This is a classic case of using old tools to combat new problems. It simply doesn't work sometimes.

Sound is analog data, which means that will always be one step away from becoming digital data. The only way to stop sound from being recorded is to play silence.

(What's next? Making paintings which cannot be photographed? The only way to stop the capture of light is to reflect no light. Just as the only way to stop sound from being recorded is to emit no sound.)

Music is essentially already software, albeit analog software. The software industry years ago has tried all of this. Disk-drive access schemes, dongles, you name it, been there, failed. Software vendors have given up on copy-protection and moved to prosecution of offenders. Still not a complete success, but cheaper and more effective than protection.

It's also a war of attrition. It costs the recording industry millions to research and implement failed copyright schemes, and that cost is always passed on to the customer. In this case, an added cost to the customer is the potential for the damage of their CD player.

But let's not be fooled that Sony is actually worried about damaging CD players. They probably do not mind one bit that x% of CD players which repeatedly play the Michael Jackson CD will need to be replaced within 6 months. After all, they do a bang-up business in both CDs and CD players from all of this.

(To put this into perspective, imagine the furor which would erupt if Intel sold software which was known to damage their CPUs. Can anyone say illegal business practices? Class-action? I certainly can and more importantly, I would.)

In all this, the irony is that pirating MP3s is already a crime, and one which the record companies can act upon if they choose. Pirating MP3s is very, very prevalent in our society -- it happens more than littering and jaywalking combined, which is to say that is basically un-policeable on a wide scale.

But the record companies would be fully justified in hiring a few interns to snoop out piraters, and then getting the courts to levy fines on those people. Do it more than once to repeat offenders, and the global network would feel the impact. If an 14-year-old gets slapped with a $250 fine, her parents are responsible for paying that fine, so let's not presume that youth can escape the law either.

By levying fines in court, the record companies could recuperate some of their losses in ways that expensive copyright protection schemes never will.

Sheer folly, all of it.

-brundlefly

Hmm...

[Fox MacLeod]

Ya know, if these things work in regular CD-Audio formats, in the sense that they're designed not to work in computer CD-Audio drives, then the best way to get around this would be to hook up a regular CD-Audio drive to the Line In of your sound card by way of a RCA-to-Microphone (don't know the exact name, all I know is I have three of these sort of connectors) jack, and record the Line In directly to wave or MP3. That's probably how we'll end up with MP3s of the stuff despite the copy protection.

It's the content stupid

[color of static]

Let's face it, wouldn't you thrash and refuse to play a Michelle Jackson CD?

Re:Already available by MP3 - Exactly

[BIGJIMSLATE]

So instead of going after the "pirates", they go after their average consumer.

Good one Rosen...

Similar experience ...

[Midnight Thunder]

Since I have a portable MP3 player, I have put all my CDs in a cupboard and for the rest of the time I use my computer to listen to them. The extra advantage is the ability to put them into random play and I no longer get fed up with the tunes, which tends to happen if you play the same CD over and over because you can't be bothered to take the CD out ;)

If I were confronted with a copy protected CD I would take it back, citing that it is incompatible with my main play-back device - luckily I haven't had to do that yet.

Hope there's a backdoor

[f1ght4fr33d0m]

I hope there's going to be a back door in the encryption for all the Feds wanting to copy it...

SCMS filter?

[Midnight Thunder]

I'm sure that someone will come up with a digital 'bridge' that will filter the packets and change the 'copy protect' status to 'copy ok'. Its only a matter of time.

Re:SCMS filter?

[jms]

This was done as early as 1990, before the AHRA was even enacted. The various SCMS implementations were a serious problem for Grateful Dead tapers who were extremely interested in making "infinite serial digital copies", and had the full blessing of the band to do so, yet were thwarted by the unwanted SCMS on consumer DAT decks.

The circuit is essentially a Crystal Semiconductor SPDIF receiver directly coupled to a SPDIF transmitter. The transmitter chip has input pins allowing you to force any SCMS setting you like.

However, in the long run, the effect was that most of the SCMS-crippled DAT decks disappeared from the market, leaving only the "professional" SCMS-free decks, which dropped in price to about what the "consumer" decks originally were intended to sell for.

In other words, the market turned out to be self-correcting.

Re:SCMS filter?

[jswitte]

But arn't those devices illegal (thanks to that 4-letter word we all so know and love..)?

Jim

Before and after photos of Michael Jackson's face

[Bowie J. Poag]

You know, PROPAGANDA has a nice photo of Michael Jackson's plastic surgery disaster. Its no wonder he wears a mask wherever he goes.. his fucking nose is falling off.

Cheers,

other sources of availability

[agent00013]

Besides the already mentioned availability at AudioGalaxy it's also available in a number of MP3 channels on various IRC servers (Dalnet, EFnet, etc). If you look, it's rather easy to find.

The answer is simple - MINIDISC !!!!

[HuangBaoLin]

MP3 fanatics just never seem to get it. If its audio, it can be copied to Minidisc. Just get a CD/DVD player with optical out, plug it into the optical in on your Minidisc recorder. Boom! You got yourself a 320kbit sampled copy on 80 minute media that costs next to nothing. Lets see your portable MP3 device touch the audio quality, simplicity, cheap media and battery life of a portable minidisc recorder. Can't even touch it.

Re:The answer is simple - MINIDISC !!!!

[IronChef]

I'm not trying to start a fight here, but please refute these points because I am curious about MD.

audio quality:

MD uses lossy compression. Is there no MP3 quality setting that compares? There must be. And if you are storing files on a 650 or 700MB CD-R, there's got to be a way where you get as much music as you can on a (128MB?) MD.

simplicity:

Depends too much on the device to compare categories. However, if you already have a load of MP3s, copying them to a CD-R is pretty easy.

cheap media:

A CD-R is pretty cheap. How much is a MiniDisc? Aren't they about $3? I could be wrong.

battery life:
I do not have a CD-R based MP3 player so I can't comment, but my geek intuition tells me that since both kinds of devices have spinning media, decoding hardware and audio hardware they will probably have similar battery life. Likewise I assume cost of the player is about the same too.

There are links to CD-based MP3 players on this page.

bonus tracks?

[alienated]

my guess is that this is really about hiding the bonus jpegs of naked boys.

Method

[Fembot]

1)Insert CD into your nice hifi sepearte

2)Connect Optical Cable to nice PC sound card

3)Press play on CD player

4)Record on pc

5)Encode using ogg vorbis

Tho why any1 would want Michael Jackson music is beyond me

What would it take? Money.

[Croaker]

The only things the record companies will understand is money. The have to be financially hurt for this to stop.

If they see a large percentage of their product coming right back at them as returns, they might get the message. Personally, if I ever find a CD I cannot play on my PC, I will return it, saying it's defective. Likely, the store clerk will give me another copy, which I will also return, ad infinitum, until I get my money back. The store will have lost a sale, and the time its clerk took to deal with the issue. The record company will have to accept its defective disks back. Of course, the crecord company won;t notice this until it becomes really bad, since we know the cost of actually creating the physical CD and packaging is their smallest cost overall.

Eventually, the record companies will likely have to label these things as not working on PC-CDROM drives, to avoid having so much of their product returned to them (and wasting the time of record stores). Which will make the average consumer ask why. Having to slap a label on your product informing your customer that you've just screwed them over is likely to make the consumer think. And that's not what the record company wants.

This, of course, assumes that a large number of people use CD-ROM drives to listen to music. I'm not sure what the percentage of the average CD buying public this is. The Record industry has to either be betting that the numbers of people who, say, listen to CD's in the CD-ROM drive of their PC at work are small enough not to make a difference, or they are hoping that the consumer is sheep-like enough to simply accept that they cannot listen to their music in CD-ROMs. I'm not sure on either point.

Re:What would it take? Money.

[sopwath]

People need to put similar pressure on the store itself.

If I go to BestBuy and buy the latest MJ CD and it doesm't work, BestBuy has to pay some schmoe to stand at the returns counter to let me return it (exchange it, whatever) People need to let BestBuy know, that if I can get an un-copy-protected CD over at WalMart, even if it's more expensive, I'll shop there instead.

BestBuy makes lot's of money off CDs, but they don't put them in the middle of the store for nothing. If you and I stop going in there and looking at other stuff, they lose business on TV's too.

BestBuy can put a lot more pressure on the record companies by saying they won't buy 10,000 disks, compared to the individual.

good luck,
sopwath

Re:What would it take? Money.

[Rakarra]

If they see a large percentage of their product coming right back at them as returns, they might get the message. Personally, if I ever find a CD I cannot play on my PC, I will return it, saying it's defective. Likely, the store clerk will give me another copy, which I will also return, ad infinitum, until I get my money back.

Except this won't last long. The clerk will play the CD back in the record player there and say "Sorry buddy, seems to work fine. Your CD player must be defective." If you keep it up, you'll find yourself banned from the store for being a troublemaker.

Re:What would it take? Money.

[A coward on a mouse]

And when they notice that lots and lots of their formerly cheerfully paying customers have been banned, what then?

Really, treating your customers like troublemakers generally comes around to bite you in the ass after long enough.

Re:What would it take? Money.

[Rakarra]

And when they notice that lots and lots of their formerly cheerfully paying customers have been banned, what then?

First of all, there will only be a few. Whether that's sad or not I'll leave up to you.

Really, treating your customers like troublemakers generally comes around to bite you in the ass after long enough.

Yeah, but usually not if the customers actually ARE troublemakers (repeatedly buying and returning products you know won't work)

Huh

[llzackll]

Shouldn't the headline be "Michael Jackson Releases Unplayable CD" ?

Just download it in MP3 format

[dkaplowitz]

That would suffice.

Talentless

[mrfiddlehead]

The guy is a moron. Who the fuck cares.

who cares...

[Beowulf_Boy]

Who listens to Michael Jackson anyways?
;-)

Genius move, guys

[Jeremi]

It used to be that when I wanted new music, I had to choose... should I buy the CD and rip it to my computer to listen to it, or should I just download the mp3 from a file sharing service? Now that choice has been made for me. ;^)

Downloading right now

[Whatever Fits]

Sorry, playing it right now. Love my DSL. I got hundreds of hits searching for the MP3 on the FastTrack network. I'm using the CGI interface to giFT. Works.

Re:Why, Cracked.

[jms]

Unless your CD player has an SPDIF output, and your computer has a SPDIF input. Then, it's a perfect copy.

SPDIF optical or rca outs on consumer cd players

[yoink!]

Although I'm not the owner of such a cd player, one of my dear friends has a mid-range JVC home mini-system with a built-in S/PDIF optical out for the CD-Player, meaning that anyone posessing an audio interface with compatible inputs would be able to make digital copies of the music (Although it would be like ripping at 1X). In fact, even soundblaster live has a RCA S/PDIF digital in. Meaning the widely used RCA S/PDIF outs on a lot of gear may just get noticed!

As audio interfaces like the MOTU 828 and the Echo Layla24 become increasingly used in home studios, we all just might have a friend who can very well copy this "uncopyable" CD. My only question, to anyone who can answer this is, would some of the erroneous information be transmitted over the pipe? I would think not... but I don't know enough about it.

Not using the Live Drive you can't!!

[jms]

Warning: The Creative "Live-Drive" soundcards do NOT have proper SPDIF inputs.

If you don't believe me, here's how I proved it:

I used Sound Forge to create an audio clip consisting of a perfect square wave. Then I used a Turtle Beach FIJI soundcard, with true digital I/O, to record the square wave onto a DAT.

Then I used Sound Forge and the same FIJI soundcard to re-read the audio clip through the digital input.

The result was two identical files, consisting of perfect square waves.

Then I took the same DAT deck over and plugged it into the SPDIF input of a Live Drive, and used Sound Forge on that machine to read in the same square wave audio clip.

The result was not a perfect square wave. There was extensive ringing and noise all over the wave.

It turns out that the Creative hardware's SPDIF input doesn't actually make the uncorrupted digital data available. Instead, it converts the digital signal back to an analog signal, then feeds it into the analog mixer, which is then sampled back into the digital domain. The result is a relatively noisy, corrupted signal.

This is why anyone who really wants SPDIF capability should run screaming from the entire Creative line of soundcards. They simply don't perform as one would expect.

Invincible

[act6-oZZ]

This can't be the work of Michael himself. When Invincible hits shelves, I am buying it, and if it can't be played in my computer (my only cd player), then I will be pissed. MJ is my favorite artist, and if I can't listen to the CD...

Make a trip to Radio Shack

[WickedClean]

All you need to copy this CD is a portable CD Player, some kind of sound recording software, and a $3 cable from Radio Shack. The cable is just a 1/8" jack to a 1/8" jack.
Plug one end into the headphone jack on the portable cd player and the other end into your microphone jack. Then press play on the cd player and Record in your software.
Wallah! Screw Michael Jackson.

Capacity of the MINIDISC system vs. MP3CD

[yerricde]

MD uses lossy compression. Is there no MP3 quality setting that compares? There must be.

Early MD devices used ATRAC, with encoding algorithms as powerful as MP2's, at 256 kbps. Recent MD devices use newer ATRAC encoders that match MP3's quality at anywhere from 64 kbps to 256 kbps. But the ATRAC decoder apparently hasn't changed.

I do not have a CD-R based MP3 player so I can't comment, but my geek intuition tells me that since both kinds of devices have spinning media, decoding hardware and audio hardware they will probably have similar battery life.

MPEG audio layer 3 on ISO9660 uses larger discs than the MD system uses. Larger discs have more rotational inertia and require more power to spin. However, a 2 MB anti-skip buffer means that the double-speed CD mechanism needs to spin up the CD only about once a minute or so to pull 1.5 MB of 192 kbps[1] MP3 audio off the disc and keep the buffer at least a quarter full, saving battery power.

[1] 192 kbps average rate MPEG layer 3 audio encoded with LAME sounds transparent compared to stereo 16-bit linear PCM, i.e. most double-blind listeners can't tell which is the CD and which is the MP3. See R3mix for more info.

Re:Capacity of the MINIDISC system vs. MP3CD

[shepd]

>Larger discs have more rotational inertia and require more power to spin.

Get the new 3" Philips expanium when it comes out and enjoy the benefits of a smaller disc on battery life. Plus you can burn at 80x (or more) audio speed, rather than the pathetic 1/5x (or less) of audio speed that most minidisc does. (ie: If you use a compression method that uses 1/5 the space for the same music, burning the compressed music at 10x would be 50x faster than .wav. Since most minidisc uses SPDIF due to SCMS to copy, your compression actually causes your burn speed to be worse as you burn 1/5 less data to the MD than if you were writing the pure data during the length of the audio).

Oh, and enjoy a format that can play in millions of computers everywhere. And don't forget that CDRs will be around for a long time, whereas MDs will only exist while Sony is in business.

When the 3" portables come around, MD has nothing over 256 kbps MP3.

Re:Capacity of the MINIDISC system vs. MP3CD

[shepd]

>a minidisc sounds much better than your average mp3 (128kbs joint stereo)

Yeah, well if that sounds like crap (and it does) don't encode at that rate.

Encode at 256 kbps instead and it will sound as good as, if not better, than minidisc.

If you're talking about downloading MP3s the MP3 isn't going to sound any better when converted to ATRAC.

I'm glad the Japanese enjoy minidisc. Perhaps its because Sony (the ONLY people allowed to license minidisc) is a Japanese company? On that note, how many Chryslers sell in Japan compared to other car manufactueres?

Or maybe in Japan taping concerts is more popular than it is in the US? Personally, I find the "rips" of concerts such horrid quality I've no interest in hearing them (even when its from my more favourite artists). But if that's what you're into, well, I suppose minidisc would be a good choice. I would still argue that as an everyday replacement for a walkman a 3" CDR player makes a much better companion than a minidisc.

>now that sony has ceased production of its DAT decks

And that's the political reason never to buy minidisc. It's controlled by Sony, and as soon as Sony finds a better way to make money, goodbye minidisc.

Bye bye DAT, thank God I never invested thousands in your propietary and useless nature. Just another of the many reasons why minidisc will never take off in North America.

>and the media is MUCH cheaper than a "memory stick" or flash memory

And the media is much less versatile than those options you talk of. Besides, going back on topic, mini-MP3-CDRs hold more data in a similar size format, is faster to burn, and much more compatible with much more equipment and is also cheaper.

For some reason (and I might be wrong) I think its safe to assume there's more computers with CD-ROMs and sound in Japan than minidisc players.

Who's Bad?

[tomblackwell]

Just beat it.

Re:Who's Bad?

[Master Bait]

My sentiments exactly.

Don't buy ANYTHING from kiddie fuckers. Don't buy scat and expect it to smell good. Don't buy junk media. Don't put this crap into your head. Don't even bother to download an mp3. Just a waste of time.

Michael Jackson is a kiddie fucker.

actually...

[Newer Guy]

In many states(including the one I live in),headshops are illegal. The government apparently believes that they can regulate product based on what they THINK you're going to do with it.

My question is then, why is this done selectively? It would seem to me that since guns and ammo can be (and frequently are)used to commit violent crimes, why aren't they illegal as well??

Re:actually...

[ncc74656]

My question is then, why is this done selectively? It would seem to me that since guns and ammo can be (and frequently are)used to commit violent crimes, why aren't they illegal as well??

Guns and ammo have several legal uses--target practice, self-defense, hunting, law enforcement, etc. DVD ripping software (to name another example) can be used to copy that Di$ney movie that your kids watch three times a day to VCD or SVCD so that when they trash that disc through fumble-fingered handling, you can burn another copy instead of forking out more $$$ for another DVD. (Likewise with Macrovision scrubbers, if you want to copy to tape instead.)

Drug paraphernalia, on the other hand, has no purpose other than to facilitate the use of illegal drugs.

Re:actually...

[castro1959]

It would seem to me that since guns and ammo can be (and frequently are)used to commit violent crimes, why aren't they illegal as well?? because dead bodies dont cost big corporations anything, whereas pirated copyright material does

Re:actually...

[jrockway]

See, good work, moderator. Fuck you.

Re:actually...

[mark_lybarger]

i agree that most of the drug paraphernalia isn't commonly used for legal purposes (probably the same as the dvd ripping software, like you're not going to snag a copy of your buddies dvd either, right?), but there are legal uses. roll your own cigaretts, you need those rolling papers. smoke your tobacco out of a pipe, probably want a few screens and a new pipe every now and then. now, a 6 ft. plastic/glass water pipe... i think that's got to be a point where you say "wait a second there... you're not stuffing tobacco in that thing"

i just think it's really funny that the actual intent of the sale is what's regulated and not just the items.

Re:actually...

[Bangback]

Actually a six foot plastic/glass water pipe is excellent for smoking a tobacco/molasses/fruit mixture from the middle east called "sheeshah". This is what water pipes were designed for, long before their "repurposing". Very hard to find the stuff in the United States but accessible on the Internet (about $10 for a box good for 80+ 2 hour smokes). Very popular in Bahrain and UAE in recent years as an "old-school" habit that the young adopted with a vengeance.

Mine is only four feet.

Bangback

Not the first "uncopyable" CD

[MrHanky]

I bought Einstürzende Neubauten's Berlin Babylon CD a couple of weeks ago, and that one had some sort of copy protection too. It was supposed to be unplayable on a computer, and exhibited the same symptoms as the M.J. CD - it spun for a long time (more than a minute), but turned out to be playable after all.

Naturally, I had to try ripping it too, and grip worked somewhat; the only problem was the timing of some of the songs, esp. the last one, which was reported to be several minutes longer than it really was, causing grip to time out when trying to rip past the track on the CD.

This was on a 12x AOpen DVD-rom, both in Windows 2000 and Linux. I wouldn't recommend the drive, though, as it Linux refuses to let it use DMA.

We got the mp3 before release

[Jusii]

Here in Finland, local radio station played that song couple of days before radio debut. DJ got the song as a mp3 from a friend. After that record company advanced the radio debut.

REDUNDANT !

[beanerspace]

In the case of Michael Jackson, along with a few other has-been performers I can think of (but don't want to) isn't making the CD uncopyable a bit redundant ?

better than ezra

[Hadlock]

i bought the new cd 'closer', by better than ezra after downloading a few of the tracks off of kazaa (www.kazaa.com), and they have a 'special feature' that lets me watch music videos of the songs on that cd, check out band bios....very neat, except winamp, nor explorer will recognize the cd as having any audio on it. any ideas, anyone?

by the way, i'm glad they're using this on michael jackson cd's.....not many people in the US buy his stuff anyways, it's mostly overseas popularity from what i understand. if anything, this anti-copying scheme should bring press to MJ and give him some free advertising. i myself did not know until today that he'd released any new music in the past 3 years anyways

Re:better than ezra

[night_flyer]

I have run accross a couple of CDs that were that way, in winamp click on the upper left hand corner of the main box, go down to play then Audio CD X:

Funk'em Den

[cyplex]

So....grab your handy dandy portable CD player and plug it into your input on your sound card. Just adds a couple of more steps to the process *shrug* no biggie. If you have a SB-Live you can use your Digital jack with the Sony(R) discman works for me. Besides whats everybody whining about this is Michel Jackson for GODS SAKE!

Conspiracy theory: promo

[cfish]

I don't think a lot of people are rushing to download Micheal Jackson's mp3. Like me, if I didn't see this post, I wouldn't have downloaded the mp3 at 196k/s and now am listening to this crapy song over my crapy ass soundcard.

So you see, Jackson's team just wanted to stir a little bit of something, ANYTHING, to get attention. They know all too well that the protection won't work. They just hope that the new young techno savvy kids will download it out of curiosity... after all, all Jackson fans are, what, over 30?

Agreed?

The Best Revenge

[dr_dank]

Since Mr. Jackson presents us with a CD that cannot be copied, its only fair that we present him with a boy that cannot be molested.

Re:SPDIF optical or rca outs on consumer cd player

[BlueTurnip]

I am curious about this solution, as I myself am in the market for a new sound card. I have heard rumors that the sound blasters don't sample at 44.1Khz, and thus it would be necessary to do sample rate conversion which could degrade the audio quality. Does anyone know if this is true?

If so, can anyone recommend a sound card that is supported by Linux that features a coax digital input suitable for creating a 44.1KHz WAV file directly from the digital output of a CD player?

Re:SPDIF optical or rca outs on consumer cd player

[don.g]

I have a Leadtek 4Xsound (based on the CMI8738 chipset). Reasonably cheap, too, and has

• coax spdif out
• optical spdif out
• optical spdif in
• a jumper on the optical board for connecting to your CDROM drive's digital audio out connector.

and unlike the nasty yamaha thing I had previously, it will talk 44.1khz over the digital lines (haven't tried input as I don't have any other equipment that talks SPDIF, only a tempramental minidisc that will listen).

And the last MP3 I copied over to minidisc with this thing I did with linux. So that works. (Windows 2000, on the other hand, doesn't like dealing with the SPDIF side.)

Copy Protection is bad business

[levin]

I don't see what record labels want to accomplish. Just because you can't rip the CD doesn't mean you can't plug your cd player's line-out to your computer's line-in, record, and encode. I even think l.a.m.e. can encode to mp3 strait from the line-in. The only thing that copy protection seems to do well is lower the buyer base of a CD. I don't own a CD player other than on my computer, and if it is going to come down to downloading an mp3 of a song or buying a cd player, I'll just download the mp3. Screw 'em.

Who are they kidding?

[Inoshiro]

Let's look at this from an economics perspective: marginal cost vs. marginal benefit.

What is the marginal cost of this new CD protection scheme? People who can't play legitimate copies of CDs they have purchased, the loss of the ability of some people to backup their CD, and the extra expense of licencing this scheme from a company (like how Macrovision is licenced).

What is the marginal benefit of this scheme? Since we know that they can copy the data anyways (since any CD player plays music), we know that at least marignally degraded copies can still be made easily (and who'll notice at 128kbits MP3?). We also know that perfect digital copies can still be made with a little more effort (for those who like higher bitrates ;)). Once this effort is expended, though, it requires no further effort as everyone can make a perfect digital copy.

The benefit is so small as to be non-existant, especially compared to the increased base cost of reproduction!

This is not a smart decision. And like the flawed logic that MP3s caused CD sales changes (who here has seen sales data of 10 years with all other factors accounted for so we can see if the responding variable and controlled variable are, in fact, related?), the way the market works should ensure that efforts like these don't last very long -- just make sure to educate people whom you know about this scheme, and hope the distribution method between of artists to art enjoyers changes soon.

Re:It probably does violate the Red Book standard.

[Wyzard]

Head on over to the Philips CD Logo page and download the zip file provided there. Inside is a PDF which gives the official rules for using the Compact Disc logo. The relevant text is on page 8:

This logo may only be used on discs complying with the CD-DA specification: IEC 60908 and/or the Philips-Sony Compact Disc Digital Audio System Description (also known as the RED Book).

Unfortunately you have to pay Philips to get the actual Red Book specification, but if this protection system works by putting "bad" data in the subchannels of the disc, I'd say it's reasonable to assume that this violates the standard. So if you see the "Compact Disc Digital Audio" logo anywhere on the disc or its cover, you can complain to your record store either that the advertising is misleading, or that the disc claims to be compliant but isn't so it must be defective. :-)

Re:The next thing the record industry will give us

[jx100]

Kinda like those movie downloads that only work for 30 days, and stop working a day after the first playback.

your way around this "copy protection"

[Anonymous Coward]

I think that most systems that use differences between cd-players and cd-rom can be circumvented with a modified cdfs.vxd .

You should find it by searching for cdfs.zip at google.com.
If you are interested in this topic then check www.cdfreaks.com . It has often news about audioprotection.

Take some EE classes before you make such claims

[_avs_007]

If you think the only thing important is the fact that it's made of copper, then I hope you don't enroll in any EE classes... You will fail for sure... If all conductors behave the same, then there would be no such thing as a resistor or a capacitor. There would also be no reason to have step-up/down transformers. There would be no limitation on trace length, there would be no limitation on USB and IEEE-1394 cable length, etc etc... you are the one that doesn't know what they are talking about.

Enhanced CDs

[Perianwyr Stormcrow]

It's essentially a CD with 2 partitions- a computer partition which your machine reads, and then the audio area. The computer partition is marked in such a way that audio CD players skip it. Getting the audio tracks is simple- just use a ripper with awareness of this extra area (CDRWin comes to mind.)

Audio Output on your stereo

[ApheX]

I find that I can make decent copies of CD's if they can't be read in my CDROM by just taking the OPTICAL out on my stereo, and plugging it into the OPTICAL in on the front of my box (SB Live! breakout box). Its not pristine but good enough for playback on mp3 player or a record for the CD in the car.

already common practice elsewhere?

[bulbul]

I'm wondering if such CD's aren't already commonplace in some countries. This summer in Croatia I bought a US$16 CD of a local band. It cannot be played on any of my CD-ROM drives. This makes the CD practically useless for me, since this is the way i usually listen to CD's.

Re:It probably does violate the Red Book standard.

[Telek]

I know that in my proceedings to backup some of my DVDs, I found that a few of them were very difficult to rip properly. They'd all get errors in the decrypted vob files or just be unable to find the "key", but yet my settop DVD player could play them fine. Thoughts?

* - RIAA here and here's the Point - *

[Kris_J]

For most of the junk being pushed into the market a simple 128kps MP3 recorded off any TV music clip show is plenty good enough. There never needs to be a CD involved in the process at all.

Not that I care, I stopped buying music CDs about 9 months ago. Haven't even downloaded a MP3 from MP3.com since "We Must Destroy X10" was released. Hmm... might go do that now.

Where do I buy the media?

[yerricde]

Get the new 3" Philips expanium when it comes out and enjoy the benefits of a smaller disc on battery life.

I haven't seen spindles of 80mm CD-R discs in stores. Where can I find these?

Re:Where do I buy the media?

[shepd]

>Where can I find these?

In the US: OfficeMax sells spindles.

In Canda: FutureShop (although they only sell 5 packs, no spindles).

Dunno where else. I do know that the mini-CD-Rs are a little overpriced, but still beat minidisc hands down in that area. :-)

Very easy to break

[iotaborg]

Simple.

Use your home CD Player, let it do the D/A. Send it out on analog (hopefully you have a good cd player) and into an A/D unit (like an ART DI/O, which I have, which also is a *killer* D/A box). Then from the A/D unit send it on digital to your sound card (I have an Audiophile 24/96 that does it).

Copy Protection my @$$!

Re:Class action lawsuit for violating fair use

[BlueTurnip]

It has been said here many times, but here goes again:

Fair use is a defence, not an offence.

If you copy a copyrighted work for review or excerpt purposes, you can use fair use as a defence if you're sued by the copyright holder. But copyright holders are under no legal obligation to make their works available in a form which permits such copying.

But do singles make profit?

[Mike McTernan]

Strange... It was my understanding that singles were only sold as promotion to albums, and as such didn't make profits (In fact, it has been reported [many times] that the labels buy up their own singles to boost sales and help ensure a high chart position on entry).

If singles are only sold for promotion, not profits, then why do they bother? Surely it is just good for them to get the exposure and pretty much release it for free (Or maybe the cost of distribution ;)

Doing this to an album that costs £13.99 (About $20) would make a lot more sense to me.

--
Mike

Um

[NovaChild]

I may be the only one, but somehow I doubt it. My Panasonic portable CD player has a "line out" jack. My Sound Blaster Live has a "line in" jack. My recording program allows recording of high quality WAVs from the "line in" jack. My ogg vorbis encoder likes High Quality WAVs.

Um?

Nova

They will only launch it if ppl don't return it...

[tshak]

So, go buy a copy, and return it claiming that it doesn't work in your computer player. Seriously, if the returns aren't high enough, they'll keep selling this crappy format.

"Rock Your World" or "You Rock My World?"

[suprslackr420]

Just checkin'. When I check out Bear Share, I find dozens of listings for a (listed as) new single called, "You Rock My World". Is this the same song as the one mentioned in the article? Which is the correct title? I'm quite used to songs being uploaded by file-sharers having the wrong title, artist, etc. I'm not a big Jocko (bringin' the nick back from the 80's hole it fell into) fan, just wanted to see if this was the one that was supposedly copy-proof. I laugh in advance of being told that it is.

What is the big deal?

[IRNI]

The CD's still play in a normal cd player right? So someone can take the headphone out and split it to a right and left signal and record it into a nice soundcard to an mp3. There are still ways to make an mp3 of music without having to have the cd in the cd drive. Just food for thought.

Dont Like it the protection, then don't buy it

[Eyetapper]

If you object to the content protection used, dont buy it. Dont request it on the radio. Dont listen to it if someone offers to play it for you. Dont bother to make an mp3, don't download the mp3. If they want to keep their music encrypted and secret, let them - ignore it, make it non-existent.

And don't stand idly by if they bombard you with their unwanted encrypted music either. If you're unwillingly exposed, how about documenting the evidence as a recording and suing them, then placing it into the court record.

For those who use push this content protection on us, their morality is dictated by their wallet. Harm their profits and watch how quickly the encryption disappears.

Re:Dont Like it the protection, then don't buy it

[t_allardyce]

The problem is, most induhviduals play their cds on normal players or in the car and have no idea what copy-protection is. They won't bother with any boycott and CDs will become like DVDs: -> full of stupid CP systems that have all been cracked, and just add pointless complexity in quality loss to the format.

Poindexter, turn on the Wayback machine!

[jzitt]

I wonder how long before MP3s of this song exist despite the copy protection.

Er, you *do* know that the single was released on the Net several weeks ago in various formats and
immediately appeared on Gnutella, etc., right?

Re:Rumor has it tho....

[alien88]

umm no.. if that was true then it woulda been nuked, and someone from ego/rev would have bitched about it and released their rip.... and there's no such bitchings.. and no, stealing other groups rip doesn't come with the territory, you obviously don't know anything about the mp3 scene..

they are just hurting themselves in the long run..

[fcrick]

> These measures only hurt legitimate customers
they don't just hurt them, they discourage them.

Anybody who ever plays music on their computer(mp3 or cd) will just be thinking "Gosh, I dunno whats happening to these new cds, but why should I buy something that might not work? Oh whatever, I'll just download the mp3 cause its not worth the trouble"

The more protected media formats, the more frustrated customers who simply give up on buying anything. Why do they keep digging themselves into a deeper and deeper grave?

S/PDIF

[Paul Komarek]

I've wondered for a long time what S/PDIF stood for. Obviously I never cared enough to look for an answer. But today one jumped out at me! Thanks!

-Paul Komarek

RIP DATE: 08/27/2001

[huphtur]

Michael_Jackson-You_Rock_My_World(Cd_Single)-2001- RNS

Red Book compliance?

[Jarvo]

It's easy to make a CD that doesn't conform to the Red Book standard:

1. Remove CD from case.
2. Open microwave oven.
3. Insert CD into microwave.
4. Start microwave.

Now the cannot be played in a CDROM. Admittedly, NO CD player can read it, but at least it's easy!

Encryption and watermarking!

[krazyninja]

At some point of time, all these encryption based technologies are bound to be broken, either because somebody finds out how to break the algorithm, increase in computational performance..
The real problem comes in when we have a watermarked CD/music content. Watermarked content is much more copy protected than pure encrypted content, as it cannot be removed that easily.

Re:Why, Cracked.

[evilmonkey_666]

Either is mp3.

In fact the mp3 conversion will loose way more information than the analog to digital conversion!

PC CD players

[lga]

How does this system affect CD-ROM drives that have a play button? Do they just work in the same way as a hifi cd player? In which case I can just play the CD with the front panel button and record via the SP/DIF connection to my sound card - instant digital copies. Not that I would ever listen to Michael Jackson.

Steve.

Read protection.

[NetBear]

It's not just uncopyable... It's unbuyable. The copy protection just adds to the read protection.

CD Tester Application is Needed

[herbierobinson]

Somebody needs to write a "CD Tester" Application that tests CDs for Red Book compliance. The program would simply try to read the entire CD and report all errors from the CD player. At the end, it would produce a message to the effect that the CD was defective if there were any errors.

So what?

[onallama]

Nobody with the least bit of musical taste has cared what Michael Jackson has done for twenty years now...

MP3's of this already exist

[thatrez]

This has already been ripped (probably with line-in and a CD player). Found and DLed the mp3 just to see if it was already ripped.

Doesn't matter much anyway, considering the "king of pop" hasn't been popular for over 10 years.

-----------
.sig's, we don't need no stinkin .sig's
-----------

Skunk Anansie

[Fuzzums]

I have the same problem with my Stoosh cd of Skunk Anansie. It's not in all cd-players that it won't play, but i've tried it in several cd-players... with the same result.

Strange way to force you to get mp3 from the interner.

There is always the D->A->D method. This is the way i ysed to make mp3 in the old days. use the sound-recorder to record a wav-file. the quality will do and i have my music and with the quality my desktop-speakers i won't hear the difference between the cd and a less-quality mp3 :))

I have the answer!

[TheSolution]

TSIS-IL-PS
(the solution is simple - install linux - problem solved)

Muahahahahahaha.

Boycott - these artists

[BBowden18]

Boycott Him and anyone else that wants to distribute the music, video, this way.. Just wait until someone plays it vi a digital source _(like via a sat dish) and then copy it from there to your computer. By pass the all the electronic crap.

C64 game/sofware companies DID offer backups

[Babbster]

Actually, you're wrong about people being SOL when their C64 discs died. Most software companies at the time offered inexpensive (usually the cost of shipping/handling, and sometimes adding a nominal fee for reproduction) backup copies to anyone who sent in proof of purchase. In particular, I recall paying about $5.00 to replace my burnt-out discs of Red Storm Rising, and Microprose sent the replacement out VERY quickly.

As an even further off-topic note, Microprose would also, in those days, send out update discs free of charge. Man, they used to be a good company.

what's all this about mp3s?

[{tele}machus_*1]

Everyone is posting about how to circumvent this copy protection to make mp3s. Forget mp3s. The music companies can never stop copyright infringement just by halting digital copying. If I can't make a digital copy, I'll just go back to what I did in college (yes, it was that long ago, in technology terms): copying cd to cassette tape. I have boxes full of tapes that I made of friends' cds. My friends have boxes full of tapes they made from me. Walkmen are ridculously cheap now. Car radios with cassette players are also cheap. And honestly, I cannot tell the difference between a high-quality cassette copy (using dolby-b, metal tape--features available on any but the absolute cheapest cassette deck even before mp3s took off) and an 128kbps mp3. Frankly, the only thing mp3 technology has done is increased the convenience of portable music, but I'd glady go back to my trusty tapes and walkman. The thing that puzzles me the most is how the music companies got up in arms about mp3s when making tape copies was always just as easy.

Re:what's all this about mp3s?

[marcas1]

I agree with you but analog tapes are not indefinitely reproduceable so it's not a threat as digital music.

$50 a pop?

[Perianwyr Stormcrow]

Sir, you are barking up the wrong tree. Metropolis Records sells for less than CD store prices, online (at http://www.industrial-music.com/)

Re:$50 a pop?

[Morbid Curiosity]

Sir, you are barking up the wrong tree. Metropolis Records sells for less than CD store prices, online (at http://www.industrial-music.com/)

Not in my currency they don't. NZ$50 is about US$20, which taking into account shipping and handling may even be on the generous side, unless I was going to buy in bulk:

Australia/New Zealand:

• 1-4 USPS AIR MAIL $9.50 + $2.00 each additional
• 1-4 USPS REGISTERED MAIL $16.50 + $2.00 each additional

If I wanted a copy of, say, "Praise the Fallen" and "Empires" at US$14 (NZ$35) each, I'd be paying US$39.5, or about NZ$100 - $50 a pop.

As it happens, I do. I guess I'll be saving up and trying to find a few more things I want to buy, and hoping that the U.S. going to war doesn't do anything too negatively insane to the currency exchange and shipping rates.

there doesn't need to be

[MemeRot]

'The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.'

Nowhere in the constitution is government given the right to regulate what chemicals enter my body.

What?!

[webworkz]

You mean to tell me that there are actually people who would WANT to copy a Michael Jackson CD?!?! :)