Linux On Your Dreamcast

Bah, Been done by gazbo · 2001-09-25 00:12 · Score: 5, Funny

I'm putting Windows 3.11 on my Dreamcast

Re:Bah, Been done by Organic_Info · 2001-09-25 00:19 · Score: 2, Funny

I can see the endless applications for a Dreamcast with Win3.11 on ... door stop, paper weight, I'm sure the list is endless ; )

Never underestimate the power of stupidity.

--
"Things that you own end up owning you" - Tyler Durden (via Diogenes of Sinope).
Re:Bah, Been done by Anonymous Coward · 2001-09-25 03:31 · Score: 0

http://www.netbsd.org/Ports/dreamcast/

stupid tux fuckers ... thinking linux is first at everything

please be first at leaving the FSF and set a good precedent. that fat ass RMS is in town today here ... i'm in the process of calling the ATF and Sanitation Dept.
Re:Bah, Been done by Anonymous Coward · 2001-09-25 03:54 · Score: 0

> I'm putting Windows 3.11 on my Dreamcast

And it will be faster than Win2k on my PIII600.
Re:Bah, Been done by Anonymous Coward · 2001-09-25 04:09 · Score: 0

It already has WinCE built in
Re:Bah, Been done by Kamaitachi · 2001-10-01 04:16 · Score: 1

why on a gaming console : 1. Cheaper than normal 2. Funny 3. Fuck Win 4. it works

--
******* http://www.thehungersite.org *******

Linux inside by (trb001) · 2001-09-25 00:13 · Score: 4, Funny

Yeah, it's impressive, but I'm waiting for the ultimate hack...linux embedded in a person. Finally make that 'Linux inside' tattoo worth getting...

--trb

Re:Linux inside by Organic_Info · 2001-09-25 00:36 · Score: 1

Yeah but I wouldn't want my brain embedded linux hacked:

Organic_Info:root:/dev/brainfs>shutdown -y -g2 -i0

Oooppppsss to late.......

--
"Things that you own end up owning you" - Tyler Durden (via Diogenes of Sinope).

DreamCast - Poor mans webserver by jfried · 2001-09-25 00:15 · Score: 4, Funny

Buy a few dreamcast install linux and apache and you have a cheap webserver farm.
Mix that with an NFS mount and a DataBase Server and you could run slashdot off it.

I wonder how well a dreamcast rack mounts?

Re:DreamCast - Poor mans webserver by Masem · 2001-09-25 00:29 · Score: 1, Redundant

Can you imagine a Beowulf cluster of these?

--
"Pinky, you've left the lens cap of your mind on again." - P&TB
"I can see my house from here!" - ST:
Re:DreamCast - Poor mans webserver by Anonymous Coward · 2001-09-25 03:18 · Score: 0

>Buy a few dreamcast install linux and apache and you have a cheap webserver farm.
>Mix that with an NFS mount and a DataBase Server and you could run slashdot off it

Sounds like a good idea but can these machines really handle being on 24/7?
Re:DreamCast - Poor mans webserver by Anonymous Coward · 2001-09-25 05:48 · Score: 0

A friend of mine has run his DreamCast a week straight without any problems. Him and a group of friends were playing RE: Code Veronica playing non stop (did the same thing with Final Fantasy 7 & 8 for PSX). Luckily he doesn't have a job ;)
Re:DreamCast - Poor mans webserver by Pimpy · 2001-09-25 07:52 · Score: 1

Oh yeah, there ya go. Let's make a webserver farm with the idea of fail over and load balancing in mind, and then give it a single point of failure like an NFS mount. Why not just shoot yourself in the foot to begin with and save the cost of the DC's to acheive the same result.
Re:DreamCast - Poor mans webserver by Anonymous Coward · 2001-09-25 11:28 · Score: 0

It's gonna be hell rounding up that many Dreamcast memory cards... Hm. One meg on the card, times two cards per controller, times four controller ports... Yeah, you could just about host goatse.cx with that.

Old news by reynaert · 2001-09-25 00:17 · Score: 5, Informative

It's nice to see the portability of Linux demonstrated. And you can use it to really freak out some non-Linux people.

But has this any practical use? A TV screen isn't any good to display text. It isn't useful for developing games either. The Dreamcast community has created tools that are far better suited for that.

Really, it's a nice hack. But it's been on slashdot before (Dreamcast runs Linux, X-Windows on Dreamcast).

Re:Old news by Anonymous Coward · 2001-09-25 00:20 · Score: 0

if you have a broadband adapter, then you could turn the dreamcast into a networked mp3 player / console.
Re:Old news by reynaert · 2001-09-25 00:38 · Score: 2, Insightful

I hear this everytime somebody ports $FREE_OS to $CONSOLE.

Has anybody actually written such a system? I'm sure there exists lots of MP3 libraries. But has anybody actually bothered to write an user interface for such thing? Like download the ISO, burn it and you're ready to go?

That's worth being on Slashdot.
Re:Old news by Junta · 2001-09-25 00:38 · Score: 2

Of course, at the current state of developer it wouldn't be a very good mp3 player, seeing as how it lacks support for the audio device...

But once they do, it will be cool. I wonder if avifile, smpeg, and/or mplayer would work on this thing. Avi support would be rather crippled, but this would be a good, cheap set-top box... I wonder how fast the dreamcast is in a practical sense. At 200 MHz with an unaccelerated framebuffer, I imagine it is quite painful...

--
XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.
Re:Old news by Jace+of+Fuse! · 2001-09-25 00:42 · Score: 4, Informative

A TV screen isn't any good to display text.

It's not terrible, actually, but it isn't great, either.

Hardly important, though, considering the Dreamcast can be plugged into a VGA monitor.

With a Keybaord, a Mouse, and a couple of Gamepads, the Broadband adapter, and a VGA box, the only thing the Dreamcast was missing to take over as a cheap Internet gaming machine was some kind of Hard Drive with a self booting OS. The ZIP drive that was slated for it would have provided just that, but horrid Dreamcast sales put an end to all that.

So instead we get to see the Playstation 2 attempt to take that market, and if you ask me, the Playstation 2 isn't really a much better console and it costs much more than the Dreamcast. (I could go on and on about why the PS2 is a major disappointment but most people reading won't care, and those who do are fanatical Sony Fanboys who will flame me... so blah)

For shame.

--

"Everything you know is wrong. (And stupid.)"

Moderation Totals: Wrong=2, Stupid=3, Total=5.
Re:Old news by molli123 · 2001-09-25 02:04 · Score: 2, Interesting

I sure think this can be useful. Think of the masses of people beeing too poor to buy a whole computer- as in the Non Developed Countries. This box is cheaper than any computer could be. They could also maintain it themselves- without paying for licenses to MS. And if it is simple, it could also be used by older people not willing to learn how to use a computer anymore. I think we need cheap and simple computers, thats why I think it could be usable. Micha !
Re:Old news by Nerftoe · 2001-09-25 03:00 · Score: 1

I bought an old Compaq Deskpro with a Pentium 200MMX, 32MB, 3.2 GB, USB, CD-ROM, 56K, ethernet for $20 on ebay, for an "emulation project".. *ahem*. I think that computers with these types of specs would be more useful to the people in non developed countries than a hacked gaming console. There is no excuse for anyone to not have a computer (who wants one)... you just have to keep your eyes open.
Re:Old news by Glytch · 2001-09-25 03:45 · Score: 2

So instead we get to see the Playstation 2 attempt to take that market, and if you ask me, the Playstation 2 isn't really a much better console and it costs much more than the Dreamcast.
Not much better? With built-in USB so you can plug in any old cheap USB keyboard and mouse? And the best controller in console gaming history? And DVD movie playback? I guess you're right, it's not much better than the Dreamcast with proprietary, expensive keyboards and mice, and it's awful, wretchedly designed controller, and lack of DVD support.
Jesus fucking christ, do people expect the PS2 to do their taxes for them? It's graphics are pretty. It's games are fun. Just relax and enjoy. Prices will drop soon enough.
And before anyone gets bent out of shape, I have a Dreamcast. I like it. It's games are also fun. But I utterly hate the fucking controller. If I knew more about electronics I'd solder together some kind of adaptor for my PS dual shock controllers.
(End rant)
Re:Old news by Jace+of+Fuse! · 2001-09-25 04:26 · Score: 2

And the best controller in console gaming history

Totally subjective. I still consider the Saturn's NiGHTS controller the best controller in history.

And DVD movie playback?

Poor DVD playback. My Laptop makes a better DVD player.

awful, wretchedly designed controller

Again, subjective. I happen to love the Dreamcast controller. I don't I dislike the Playstation controller, mind you. But again, it's functionally not much better, though perhaps a quite a more ergonomic for some people (not me...)

It's games are fun.

Oh? I've seen few PS2 titles out yet that I've really been interested in. So far for me the PS2 is nothing more than an expensive Playstation 1 emulator. Not that I'm complaining too much about that, but it is sort of a shame that the best reasons to own a Playstation 2 are all Playstation 1 games.

And before anyone gets bent out of shape

I don't get bent out of shape on such things. I'm something of a realist so I stay level headed when discussing these things. Plus, I'm really a gaming whore. It's all good, and while I happen to find great merit in the PS2, I find it to be a great shame that Sony has displaced so much of Sega and Nintendo's market seeing as how they have little show in the way of first party efforts (though Grand Turismo is the lone exception.)

If I knew more about electronics I'd solder together some kind of adaptor for my PS dual shock controllers.

Perhaps you would be interested in either a Bleempad or Bleempod. The pad of course is a pad for the dreamcast modeled after the Playstation's. The Bleempod is a straight adapter. Unfortunately, they seem rather hard to come by.

I repeat, though, that controller preferences are subjective. I find that the Playstation controller is a wee bit too small for my hands, and the Dreamcast's just seems to fit better for me (as does the N64's) but I would no more force that opinion on anybody than I would force them to wear my shoes. Everyone's hands are different. I know of many controllers that I love that many people hate, including most of Microsoft's Sidewinder game pads. I personally consider the Sidewinders top-notch, esspecially teh Sindwinder Gamepad Pro. But that's subjective. Totally subjective.

--

"Everything you know is wrong. (And stupid.)"

Moderation Totals: Wrong=2, Stupid=3, Total=5.
Re:Old news by Glytch · 2001-09-25 04:47 · Score: 2

Well, I suppose I have smallish hands and I like lots of buttons, so the gazillion-buttons-squished-together design of the dual shock is good for me.

Thanks for pointing out the Bleem stuff. I'm going to try to track some of them down. Either one would be perfect. The Bleempad actually looks a lot like a third-party PS controller I've got called the "Dual Impact" from Performance. It's actually pretty well-made for third-party stuff.
Re:Old news by Pimpy · 2001-09-25 07:22 · Score: 1

smpeg/mplayer and friends should work just fine on it the way it is.. SDL has been working for awhile on it, but it's a wee bit on the sluggish side due to the slow nature of the framebuffer driver. Though a rewrite of the fb driver is planned soon, which'll utilize store queues and dma access for overall faster performance (possibly also tying into the drm subsystem for cleaner locking and dma handling). The SH4 itself is a fairly speedy processor, MHz is a pretty meaningless concept. It can do mpeg and mp3 decoding and such pretty much effortlessly, though lack of sound support for the AICA in its present incarnation certainly makes mp3s a somewhat meaingless venture.
Re:Old news by Anonymous Coward · 2001-09-25 07:34 · Score: 0

http://www.dcemulation.com/soft-gyplay.htm
there are more there, and also another one which was recently taken down by the author's request, which can still be found on numerous peer to peer networks.
Re:Old news by Anonymous Coward · 2001-09-25 10:58 · Score: 0

> I could go on and on about why the PS2 is a major disappointment but most
> people reading won't care

I happen to be interested in the discussion, but it's wildly off-topic already. What about you make it an entry in your /. journal? I'd be interested in it, really. :)
Re:Old news by MisterPo · 2001-09-25 13:23 · Score: 1

NiGHTS! now that WAS a controller and a half :)
However my favourite of all has got to be the Namco Arcade Joystick for PS1. Admittedly it was rubbish for anything but beat-em-ups, but the build quality was wild.

All good comments, the thing is though what really killed off the DC was all the pirates and warez so easily available. Shame as the majority of the games was *so* good. The look on peoples face when seeing Jet Set Radio.....

Hopefully the reinvention of Sega into a dominant software house will one day lead them back into developing consoles and I for one cant wait :)

Po
Re:Old news by andylaurence · 2001-09-26 03:18 · Score: 1

Not much better? With built-in USB so you can plug in any old cheap USB keyboard and mouse?

Get a PS2 adapter for your dreamcast, and you can get mice and keyboards for pennies.

And the best controller in console gaming history?

Get a playstation adapter.

And DVD movie playback?

I knew that was coming - why do people always talk about the DVD player? It's a shite player and why use a games console for playing DVDs? When your PS2 dies from over-use, you'll wish you never used the function (aimed in general not at you).

I guess you're right, it's not much better than the Dreamcast with proprietary, expensive keyboards and mice, and it's awful, wretchedly designed controller, and lack of DVD support.

I actually like the dreamcast controller - it's a good shape to grip unlike the playstation one. Perhaps it's because after 5 years of playstation use you've become accustomed to it?

Jesus fucking christ, do people expect the PS2 to do their taxes for them?

No, but you could running Linux on Dreamcast....

It's graphics are pretty. It's games are fun. Just relax and enjoy. Prices will drop soon enough.

But dreamcast is already cheap. This is now, not when it finally comes down in price. A dreamcast is a viable option now!

And before anyone gets bent out of shape, I have a Dreamcast. I like it. It's games are also fun. But I utterly hate the fucking controller. If I knew more about electronics I'd solder together some kind of adaptor for my PS dual shock controllers.

Have a search on Google or try a newsgroup - you'll find the adapters.

--
Wireless Bristol
Re:Old news by Anonymous Coward · 2001-09-28 22:22 · Score: 0

Well, I'll admit that the PS2's DVD performance is pretty crappy. The quality's okay (though I'm not super anal about that sort of thing). Unfortunately, it has a lot of compatibility problems. The drivers are upgradeable though, so maybe Sony will finally get them ironed out sometime.

As far as the controller issue... the DC's controller was okay for a lot of things, but those back buttons were absolutely crap for fighting games. Any fighting game on the DC really had to use only four buttons, or it became extremely hard to play. (Witness, Marvel vs. Capcom, Street Fighter Alpha 3, etc.) Granted, there was the arcade stick and some of the third party controllers who had different button setups, but we're talking about the default controller here. The dual shock is just a much more versatile design. I mean it's got eight buttons, all fairly easy to use. Plus, two analog sticks and rumble built in. All in all, I'd take the Playstation controller over the DC any day.

As far as games, yes there's still not a lot out at this point that really blows you away. But wait for this Christmas. In the next couple of months, PS2 has all sorts of shiny goodness coming out. Devil May Cry, Soul Reaver 2, Metal Gear Solid 2, Grand Theft Auto 3, Final Fantasy X. There's a lot of cool stuff in development for PS2 right now, and it's gonna be here long before any good games come out for Gamecube or (ack!) XBox.

Face it, the DC is dead. I have one, but I hardly play it anymore. Running Linux on it would be cool, but with the Broadband Adapter so hard to find, it's not a very viable option. Sega lost the console wars. Honestly, I think they've made the right move by switching to software development. At least there they might be able to actually turn a profit.

yeah...ok by Anonymous Coward · 2001-09-25 00:19 · Score: 0

uhh, we've done dreamcast a couple hundred times now

Legacy by ColdGold · 2001-09-25 00:20 · Score: 1

But will it run the legacy drivers for my hand scanner and Iomega video capture card?

Been Running NetBSD on Mine For a while by doon · 2001-09-25 00:23 · Score: 5, Interesting

Netbsd> Has had a dreamcast port for a while now. It runs great. Have been running it at home for a while. FYI....

-Doon

--
To E-mail me, replace the first period in my domain with an @

Re:Been Running NetBSD on Mine For a while by Narfeth! · 2001-09-25 00:59 · Score: 1

Less than a fraction? So it lies somewhere between 0 and -100%?
I'm sure if BSD had a cuddely little panda or something for it's logo, it'd do much better :)
Re:Been Running NetBSD on Mine For a while by mvw · 2001-09-25 01:13 · Score: 2

*BSD is collapsing in complete disarray, as further exemplified by failing dead last [sysadminmag.com] in the recent Sys Admin comprehensive networking test.
You left out that they tested the systems in out-of-the-box configurations.
This result might be of use for occasional users who don't touch the knobs, but has nothing to do with administered environments, where settings are adapted to the local necessities.
It would be interesting to compare these results, with boxes that were tweaked by gurus and by average admins.
Not that I expected a serious posting from you. :)

Ethernet driver? by CaptainAlbert · 2001-09-25 00:23 · Score: 1

I don't suppose there's a driver for the BBA ethernet card currently existing; that seems to be the next logical step. Once the TCP/IP stack's up and running, things take off.

Also... much more interesting was the report in June e.g.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/sci/tech/newsid_1 371000/1371527.stm

that you can do the same thing on the Playstation. Anyone know how long it'll be before the PS-2 has Linux support? And after that, how long till Sony ban this sort of thing?

Of course, I've never seen a Dreamcast at all - can you plug a keyboard into one of those things? 'cos I'm sure not doing any kernel hacking if I've got to enter letters off a rotating wheel using only left-right cursor movements on a control pad. That gave me enough trouble entering my initials in the arcades?

--
These sigs are more interesting tha

Re:Ethernet driver? by CaptainAlbert · 2001-09-25 00:26 · Score: 1

Of course if I'd read to the bottom of the article, I'd have noticed that Sony themselves have release a Linux development kit, primarily for games developers. Seems rather out of character.

--
These sigs are more interesting tha
Re:Ethernet driver? by CiaranC · 2001-09-25 00:26 · Score: 1

Yup, a keyboard is available.
Re:Ethernet driver? by Junta · 2001-09-25 00:35 · Score: 2

Actually, the BBA is quite supported, and the article says as much.

--
XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.
Re:Ethernet driver? by sahala · 2001-09-25 01:36 · Score: 1

can you plug a keyboard into one of those things?
You can either buy a keyboard as an accessory, or buy a converter for your existing PC keyboard (I'm not so sure if USB is supported though).
The same thing applies for mice.
I'm pretty impressed with the tools out there for Dreamcast development. The fact that Linux can be loaded is interesting, but it doesn't excite me very much. As another poster mentioned, there are other ways of developing for the Dreamcast, and there are already a bunch of apps out there for it, like an mp3 player, video CD player and other cool little toys.
I'm not interested in running Apache or some firewall off the dreamcast, broadband support or not. I'd prefer to just grab a cheap pentium computer (with HARD DRIVE) that sort of general use.
The fact that Linux can run on a Dreamcast is interesting simply because it can be done.
Re:Ethernet driver? by Pimpy · 2001-09-25 07:26 · Score: 1

The BBA is a hacked up rtl8139, and it's been supported for many many many months. Read first, think later.

Re:Why this is cool. by reynaert · 2001-09-25 00:30 · Score: 2, Informative

If you want to develop software for the Dreamcast, use KOS, which is a free development system, much better suited to the task than Linux. Similar systems exist for almost every proprietary platform (I know of a C compiler for the gameboy...)

Porting from the PC to console will never be easy anyway. Consider input methods. Most PC games use the mouse, with a lot of keyboard shortcuts. That won't work on a console.
Many PC games also assume a specific display resulotion. If the Dreamcast has less, you've got problems. (And the resolution of a TV ain't great.)

Pack(et) Man by valentyn · 2001-09-25 00:31 · Score: 1

Time for a new type of firewall: one where you can actually shoot those nasty packets down - before they infect your IIS.

--
my other sig is a 500 page novel

One Useful App by barnaclebarnes · 2001-09-25 00:32 · Score: 4, Interesting

MAME.

Dreamcast+MAME =A cheap arcade emulator with 2000 games. sweet.

--
[Please type your sig here.]

Re:One Useful App by stx23 · 2001-09-25 00:43 · Score: 1

Mame on the Dreamcast

Your comment violated the postercomment compression filter. Comment aborted.
Huh?
Re:One Useful App by Jace+of+Fuse! · 2001-09-25 00:47 · Score: 5, Informative

Actually...

Many emulators already exist in a self booting stand alone form for the Dreamcast.

One could say that the Dreamcast does not need Linux at all, but that somewhat defeats the whole "Doing it for the sake of doing it" spirit.

Still, This Site is dedicated to Dreamcast specific emulators.

--

"Everything you know is wrong. (And stupid.)"

Moderation Totals: Wrong=2, Stupid=3, Total=5.
Re:One Useful App by fmackay · 2001-09-25 00:54 · Score: 2, Informative

No need to run DC-Linux + MAME, though, when there's a dreamcast port of mame by the guy who ported it to digital cameras a while back
Re:One Useful App by weslocke · 2001-09-25 01:01 · Score: 2

One problem you have with Mame is the fact that the ROMs take so much space. (My collection alone is over 7 CDs, and a friend's is larger than that)

Anyone know of the feasability of using this with the broadband adapter to hook into your network and pull ROMs from another machine? (just map the shares and let it rip)

Heck, for that matter how about being able to run an MP3 server like this by doing the same thing?

And when you add in the VCD player that's already available for the Dreamcast. All we need is a DIVX player and we're set.

(Now I wonder if all this would actually work?)

:^)

--

'Life is like a spoonful of Drain-O, it feels good on the way down but leaves you feeling hollow inside'
Re:One Useful App by pigpen_ · 2001-09-25 01:53 · Score: 1

Who needs MAME when you have robotfindskitten for dreamcast?

--
Zambozay! My brain must've been eatin' a sandwich!
Re:One Useful App by mrossbrown · 2001-09-25 04:03 · Score: 1

C'mon now, please don't tell me that emucrap is the only thing you see running on the Dreamcast.

M. R.
Re:One Useful App by Jace+of+Fuse! · 2001-09-25 04:35 · Score: 1

Here's a bit for you to munch on, troll... (I shouldn't be feeding you... but...)

Who said that was the only thing running on the Dreamcast? Not I. It does however make an excellent reason to own a Dreamcast.

I personally love the idea of taking up less entertainment center space by using my Dreamcast in place of my SNES and NES. I have many games I adore on those systems but as my console collection continues to grow space continues to become more precious, and having the Dreamcast take over the roll of older systems is a real blessing.

I'm not saying there aren't other great reasons to own a Dreamcast, but Linux and NetBSD don't impress me nearly as much as a CD full of my favorite SNES titles.

It's somewhat illegal to pirate roms of course, but if challenged to provide proof that I have rights to fair use I can always pull out my crate full of over 50 original SNES cartridges, and two broken SNES controllers. :-(

--

"Everything you know is wrong. (And stupid.)"

Moderation Totals: Wrong=2, Stupid=3, Total=5.

ISO? by Anonymous Coward · 2001-09-25 00:34 · Score: 0

ISO anyone? =)

Re:ISO? by JohnHegarty · 2001-09-25 06:03 · Score: 1, Funny

International Organization for Standardization
(ISO) A voluntary, nontreaty organisation founded in 1946, responsible for creating international standards in many areas, including computers and communications. Its members are the national standards organisations of 89 countries, including the American National Standards Institute.

ISO produced the OSI seven layer model for network architecture.

The term "ISO" is not actually an acronym for anything. It is a pun on the Greek prefix "iso-", meaning "same". Some ISO documents say ISO is not an acronym even though it is an anagram of the initials of the organisation's name.

--
Cruise TT

Console Linux by INicheI · 2001-09-25 00:39 · Score: 0

Linux on Dreamcast, PS2, PlayStation. I am sure that Microsoft will work so hard to make sure that no one hacks the Xbox, especially to put Linux.

--
Gaming Shizzle

Re:Why this is cool. by Organic_Info · 2001-09-25 00:42 · Score: 1

"Porting from the PC to console will never be easy anyway. Consider input methods. Most PC games use the mouse, with a lot of keyboard shortcuts. That won't work on a console.
Many PC games also assume a specific display resolution. If the Dreamcast has less, you've got problems. (And the resolution of a TV ain't great.)"

Hardly the most difficult of problems to circumvent - especially when you consider the portability that is achieved.

--
"Things that you own end up owning you" - Tyler Durden (via Diogenes of Sinope).

what about ps2? by Sarin · 2001-09-25 00:42 · Score: 1

What about hacking linux to a ps2?
I know sony has already worked it out for the japanese ps2, but you need extra hardware to run it.
What about running it of a cdrom only, yes you'll need to modify the ps2, otherwise it won't recognise the cdrom you put linux on.

Has anyone already done this or is anyone working on it?

Re:what about ps2? by siokaos · 2001-09-25 05:06 · Score: 1

I've been doing some research... if you find anything, just pop me an email?

--
http://siokaos.org/

I'm sure... by Organic_Info · 2001-09-25 00:51 · Score: 1

I don't know how much a Dreamcast is but I'm sure the money (and time) can be put to better use.

I'm all for experimentation and exploration but surely in the long run its a bit of a waste.

Do something useful with your creativity.

(Hmmm preaching about wasting time when reading slashdot - Doh!)

--
"Things that you own end up owning you" - Tyler Durden (via Diogenes of Sinope).

Re:I'm sure... by Anonymous Coward · 2001-09-25 03:33 · Score: 0

It sure can be put to better use, you can play games with it. I haven't tried Linux on DC yet, but I have gotten NetBSD to work. It isn't really useful, but its fun. Mainly, DC is cool 'cause the games are really good. I have PS1,PS2,N64,and DC and DC is definitely best for games. Plus, you can pick up 5-6 Great Sega games for 40-50 bucks at the PawnShop or on clearance at Sears and WalMart.

Re:Why this is cool. by gavlil · 2001-09-25 00:53 · Score: 1, Informative

Porting from the PC to console will never be easy anyway. Consider input methods. Most PC games use the mouse, with a lot of keyboard shortcuts. That won't work on a console.

This is very true but lucky for all us; the nice men at sega made a nice mouse and keyboard

--

Do Unto Others As You Would Have Others Do Unto You - ONLY HARDER!

It's better to play video games outside of youth by qwerty123 · 2001-09-25 00:54 · Score: 1

Bill Gatliff explains everything you need to do to install Linux on a Sega Dreamscast gaming console.

I see this "Bill Gatliff" person is trying to get people to use linux on dreamcast instead of xbox...

Re:Why this is cool. by weslocke · 2001-09-25 00:55 · Score: 2

All I know is that if someone could stick Heroes of Might & Magic 3 on the thing, I'm there.

(Not only could I feed my addiction in the computer room, I could feed it in the living room too! Woo-hoo!)

--

'Life is like a spoonful of Drain-O, it feels good on the way down but leaves you feeling hollow inside'

Re:Why this is cool. by Accipiter · 2001-09-25 00:57 · Score: 2

and maybe 10 dollars in RD...

WOW! So 5 developers receive a salary of two dollars for their trouble?

Recheck your facts there, chief. A lot more than five people go into the making of a game.

--

-- Give him Head? Be a Beacon?
(If you can't figure out how to E-Mail me, Don't. :P)

DREAMCAST $79 ON SALE by robvasquez · 2001-09-25 00:57 · Score: 0

$120 cheaper than PS2 or XLAX

Re:DREAMCAST $79 ON SALE by Anonymous Coward · 2001-09-25 01:19 · Score: 0

$79 is still about 3 times more than it is worth. I'll wait till it hits the surplus liquidators and flea markets. Should go for about $25 or $30.

Re:Why this is cool. by DaveHowe · 2001-09-25 01:10 · Score: 2

The odds of it costing only $3 for the entire production run materials doesn't make sense - so neither does your comment.
Only if you consider it to be $3+$10 per copy sold does the comment make sense - and at that I would consider the material cost fairly high. I have seen prices of a few cents per copy for a large "pressed" CD run, and I doubt the box and little booklet would be that expensive.

--
-=DaveHowe=-

-Running NetBSD on ... by _Mustang · 2001-09-25 01:20 · Score: 2

Sounds like that could be the real use of this type of project. Rather than spend $200+ on one of those firewall/router devices (such as those from Linksys) just buy a Dreamcast at the $49 firesale price and then run a real operating system on it. It would make for a superior device that can be admin/maintained and updated as necessary..

Re:-Running NetBSD on ... by Anonymous Coward · 2001-09-25 02:25 · Score: 0

mod down you would need to get ethernet card which is not cheap. you would also need a hub
Re:-Running NetBSD on ... by batkiwi · 2001-09-25 04:57 · Score: 1

Problem:

The network stack for the dreamcast has some serious delay.

Something along the lines of 10ms+.

This is due to interrupt problems or somesuch, I'm not certain about the details, I just know it's there.
Re:-Running NetBSD on ... by Electrum · 2001-09-25 13:43 · Score: 1

You'd also need the broadband adapter, which is not exactly cheap. The total cost would be more than a $100 off the shelf broadband router. And what good is a router with only a single interface? Plus it's probably only 10mb. If you have access to old hardware (a Pentium, say) then it would be just as cheap to use a real PC.

DC has VGA 640x480 support as well + other modes by cybrthng · 2001-09-25 01:26 · Score: 4, Interesting

DC has a VGA adaptor for 20 bucks that works great, defaults to 640x480 but i've read from dev sites that it goes higher.

I have my DC connected to a flatpanel monitor i picked up from ebay and love it.

Dreamcast is only 79 bucks and 49.00 by christmas by cybrthng · 2001-09-25 01:28 · Score: 2

Can't get much better than that.

GDROM
24 Megs Ram
6+ mill polys a second
Great Sound
4 controllers, with support for Mouse & Keyboard
Rare Broadband adaptor
Built in modem
New webbrowser with modern features.

dot dot dot (for those who listen to stern)

Why exclude x86? by twitter · 2001-09-25 01:44 · Score: 2

What's needed to really explore Linux as an embedded operating system is a well-documented, inexpensive and readily available hardware platform that isn't based on an Intel x86-compatible microprocessor.

I'm not sure why you would want to exclude x86 stuff. There's tons of older do-it-all mother boards lying around for next to nothing. Some of them have low enough power requirments, but all of them use hardware that you already own. While it's nice to see so much work going on outside x86, I'd never ignore x86.

I'm waiting for systems like Agenda to get cheaper and less NDA burdened.

--

Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.

Re:Why exclude x86? by bgat · 2001-09-25 02:33 · Score: 2

The reason I exclude x86 for embedded Linux experimentation is because so much stuff Just Works for x86, you can't often tell if the thing boots because you did something right, or because you got lucky.

If you are running a non-x86 setup, you have to have everything properly configured before anything useful happens. That's important when, in your "day job", you'll be running Linux on a custom SH-4 board, ARM, or whatever. From this perspective, being in command of an x86 system can be a false sense of security.

b.g.

--
b.g.

Stealing comments isn't cool! by Anonymous Coward · 2001-09-25 01:48 · Score: 2, Informative

What the ...? Parent is an almost direct copy of an old comment made by "Kagato" to an old article! (The title of the comment is "Re:And the benefit of this would be?")

Re:Stealing comments isn't cool! by Anonymous Coward · 2001-09-25 02:10 · Score: 0

Thanks for the heads-up.

Win3.11? Luxury! by Captain+Zion · 2001-09-25 01:55 · Score: 1

What about King's Quest on a Dreamcast?

(Hey wait, yt has been done too...)

The Gaming Chips... by Duncan+Cragg · 2001-09-25 01:56 · Score: 2, Interesting

Can someone tell me what special gaming
chips there are inside the DC, and whether
drivers exist for them?

Have you seen the price of the BBA? by dave-fu · 2001-09-25 02:23 · Score: 1

BBA=broadband adapter=$120 (plus shipping) from Lik Sang, and at least that much off of ebay.
That's $220 right there... leave it to a slashdotter to ignore all the humor in a given comment, eh?

--
Easy does it!
This comment has been submitted already, 276865 hours , 59 minutes ago. No need to try again.

Maybe not a good thing by SilentChris · 2001-09-25 02:25 · Score: 2

Just in retrospect, maybe all this Dreamcast hacking wasn't such a good thing. I mean, these companies make money off software license sales, and often lose money on the hardware. Didn't our (infinitely small, but still there) part in hacking the machine and help assist the driving of Dreamcast into the ground. Sort of like a parasite: we fed on it and we accidentally killed the host, now that they aren't making the system anymore.

Re:Maybe not a good thing by BillGodfrey · 2001-09-25 02:43 · Score: 1

I mean, these companies make money off software license sales, and often lose money on the hardware.
Anything which forces the world to abandon this business model is (IMHO) a good thing.
Re:Maybe not a good thing by beth_linker · 2001-09-25 02:48 · Score: 1

Why? It's actually a great model for consumers. If companies priced the hardware so that they could turn a profit on it, it would rival the price of a personal computer and lots of people wouldn't bother. This model lets them get the hardware out to a much wider user base and then make plenty of money on software if they come up with good games and market them well (bad marketing killed the Dreamcast, not weak hardware or software).
Re:Maybe not a good thing by SilentChris · 2001-09-25 05:01 · Score: 2

You're completely missing the point. You can abandon business models much more easier: don't contribute to them. But we, instead, have destroyed the basis of something we enjoyed by not contributing. You can't hack a machine and then wonder why the company isn't supporting it anymore because you didn't purchase the software. It's sort of unethical.
Re:Maybe not a good thing by liquidsin · 2001-09-25 05:05 · Score: 1

The hacking of the Dreamcast had nothing to do with it's demise. The fact that the games sucked had everything to do with it's downfall (well, that and the controllers pretty much sucked too). I mean, we all install a free OS and software on our pcs, and it hasn't killed the market for home computers. And anyone who paid $200 for a dreamcast for the sole purpose of installing linux/mame/whatev needs a life.

--
do not read this line twice.
Re:Maybe not a good thing by dossen · 2001-09-25 05:12 · Score: 1

I agree, that it can be a good model, for the consumers. But since it is the choice of the manufacturer, how to create a business model around some product, I don't go around feeling guilty if I should be so lucky to get cheap/free stuff because of some loss leader business model.

Basically I want to buy the things I think are a good deal, at the price they are sold at (or lower... ;-) and let the people making the products worry about their end. Should they loose money on me, then they can regard it as a mistake or a statistical anomaly, but they (or anybody else) shouldn't start blaming me... they sold it, so it's their problem.
Re:Maybe not a good thing by Reductionist · 2001-09-25 05:44 · Score: 1

Oh please.. The Dreamcast games are just as good, if not better than most of the PS2 shit that came out in the last year. It was the Sony hype machine that sealed Sega's coffin shut. Everyone was so convinced that the PS2 would be the second coming of the console messiah and that the Dreamcast would fail from day one. And oh your PC analogy is a bit flawed since console makers use the razor blade business model(i.e. sell the console at cost or less and make all their money off the sales from the games).
Re:Maybe not a good thing by BillGodfrey · 2001-09-25 22:53 · Score: 2

If companies priced the hardware so that they could turn a profit on it, it would rival the price of a personal computer and lots of people wouldn't bother.
But they want a profit somewhere along the line, and so the consumer pays somewhere. If console makers charged a fair price for the hardware, they could get thier sweaty little mits off the software market.
Developers would not have to go cap in hand to the hardware people for permission to sell a game, they would just do it.
What scope is there for a group of spare time programmers to produce a console game? None, independent programmers who just want to make a simple little game and sell it for ten quid would not produce enough revenue for Sony/Sega/whatever, and the last thing they want is something actually creative. It may draw attention away from thier latest whizz-bang yet-another-template game.

I just put Linux in my toaster by ravic · 2001-09-25 02:26 · Score: 2, Funny

Man, it was great. I put the entire CD in there and it booted in about 3 minutes (with the config set to "medium". Amazing.

--
Dont eat yellow snow

There's geeking out, and there's this... by Johnny+Starrock · 2001-09-25 02:32 · Score: 1

"a fun weekend project"

I feel very sorry for you. Get out of your "Perl Kodin' /. Postin' Korner" in your parent's basement and experience life.

--

end communication

CD Images by Puk · 2001-09-25 02:34 · Score: 3, Informative

If you're as lazy as me, you can get a DC Linux CD image from dcemulation on their DC Linux page. They also link to an image for Padus DiscJuggler on the news page, but I won't link that here.

Note that I am also so lazy that I haven't downloaded said image, or even gotten around to fixing my broken dreamcast. :)

-Puk

Re:CD Images by mrossbrown · 2001-09-25 03:13 · Score: 1

Have fun.
That "demo" has very little hardware support, and is from Summer 2000 (or before).
Real Linux/Dreamcast distributions (e.g. Debian) are currently in the works.
M. R.

Why for the love of god by Anonymous Coward · 2001-09-25 02:34 · Score: 0

Why is there this never ending need to put Linux on every living thing? I love Linux as much as the next guy but come on. What does this really add to a dreamcast? (Although they are $70 now!)

More memory by SomeOtherGuy · 2001-09-25 03:09 · Score: 1

I have been following this from day one -- and the one issue that always kicks you in the pants is the fact that the DC has only 16 Megs of usable memory. Thus, you are sitting there in X with an xterm and wishing that you had enough memory to actually do anything else. (I did get it to play Donkey Kong with Mame --- albeit no sound --- but it was cool...)

--
(+1 Funny) only if I laugh out loud.

Re:More memory by Anonymous Coward · 2001-09-25 14:51 · Score: 0

The SH4 in the dreamcast uses 16-bit words for instructions making code compact.
Re:More memory by Anonymous Coward · 2001-09-26 00:52 · Score: 0

Well, the IA-32 architecture uses 8 bit words for some instructions, making the code even more compact.

Linux on Dreamcas by kriebz · 2001-09-25 03:11 · Score: 1

My roomate and I just waseted 30 CD-Rs this week on this. Now someone puts a better apge up. Why now? Why was this so hard? And what are you wupposed to do with linux on a DC? To little memory to do anyhting big, and the brodband adapters are worth their weight in gold!

If anyone has a broadband adapter, consider loaning/selling it to someone who is trying this (like me).

Linux is the best by Anonymous Coward · 2001-09-25 03:18 · Score: 0

This s why Linux is so cool. It runs on everything from wrist watchs, to IBM mainframes.

Thank you, Linus. You are the best.

How VA Japan says it: by Anonymous Coward · 2001-09-25 03:20 · Score: 0

We are roing ouh of rizness!

Re:How VA Japan says it: by GTRacer · 2001-09-25 04:00 · Score: 1

Perhaps if they're out of breath and have a fat lip...
Japanese has a perfectly good "hard" G sound: fS. And it has a "T", too, fg. And a fr. I think you're thinking of the whole L-R thing.
If you're going to make fun of something, at least do it right.
IHBT. IHL. HAND...I know, I know.
GTRacer
Will speak Nihongo someday...

--
Defending IP by destroying access to it? That makes sense, RIAA/MPAA. Go to the corner until you can play nice!
Re:How VA Japan says it: by BitwizeGHC · 2001-09-25 04:00 · Score: 2

I think that's how Scooby-Doo says it.

--
N4st0r, trixx0r h0bb1tz0rz! Th3y st0l3 0ur pr3c10uzz!

Dreamcast = Dead = *BSD = Dead by Anonymous Coward · 2001-09-25 03:21 · Score: 0

The Dreamcast, like *SD,is dead

Yet another crippling bombshell hit th beleaguered *BSD community when last month IDC confirmed that *BSD accounts for less than a fraction of 1 percent of ll servers. Coming on the heels of the latest Netcraft survey which plainly states that *BSD has lost more market share, this news serves to reinforce what we've known all along. *BSD is collapsing in complete disarray, as further exemplified by failing dead last in th recent Sys Admin comprehensive networking test.

You don't need to be a Kreskin to predict *BSD's future. The hand writing is on the wall: *BSD faces a bleak future. In fact there won't be any future at all for *BSD because *BSD is dying. Things are looking very bad for *BSD. As many of us are already aware, *BSD continues to lose market share. Red ink flows like a river of blood. FreeBSD is the most endangered of them all.

Let's keep to the facts and look at the numbers.

OpenBSD leader Theo states that there are 7000 users of OpenBSD. How many users of NetBSD are there? Let's see. The number of OpenBSD versus NetBSD posts on Usenet is roughly in ratio of 5 to 1. Therefore there are about 7000/5 = 1400 NetBSD users. BSD/OS posts on Usenet are about half of the volume of NetBSD posts. Therefore there are about 700 users of BSD/OS. A recent article put FreeBSD at about 80 percent of the *BSD market. Therefore there are (7000+1400+700)*4 = 36400 FreeBSD users. This is consistent with the number of FreeBSD Usenet posts.

Due to the troubles of Walnut Creek, abysmal sales and so on, FreeBSD went out of business and was taken over by BSDI who sell another troubled OS. Now BSDI is also dead, its corpse turned over to yet another charnel house.

All major surveys show that *BSD has steadily declined in market share. *BSD is very sick nd its long term survival prospects are very dim. If *BSD is to survive at all it will be among OS hobbyist dabblers. *BSD continues to decay. Nothing short of a miracle could save it at this point in time. For ll practical purposes, *BSD is dead.

*BSD is dying

Realize Linux/Dreamcast's true purpose by mrossbrown · 2001-09-25 03:34 · Score: 3, Informative

It's nice to see the portability of Linux demonstrated. And you can use it to really freak out some non-Linux people.

For starters, read the article before posting ... but I know that's asking a bit too much from this crowd.

But has this any practical use? ...The Dreamcast community has created tools that are far better suited ...

The Linux/Dreamcast port (in my vision at least) is designed for embedded Linux hacking, not to turn the DC into a powerful PC-like workstation. It has 16 megs of system RAM, more than enough to run most Linux apps as is anyway.

When Karl Kalleberg and myself started the port at LinuxDC (yes, not the same as the originial .jp port, for reasons I won't go into, but we're all friends now :P), the idea was to provide an embedded Linux system as an alternative for the hobbyist Dreamcast developers instead of the plucky toolkits (libdream, KOS, etc.) that were available. LinuxDC is *designed* to go as close to the metal as possible.

I'm still doing DC kernel hacking, check out the Task Manager on the SF project page for info on what's currently being worked on.

Really, it's a nice hack.

I wouldn't expect you to understand, as you obviously are inhibited from reading in some sort of way, but anyway, the port of Linux to the SuperH processor (to which the LinuxDC port belongs) is very real. Just browse your latest mainline kernel tree in the arch/sh/ directory for code relating the the DC and other SuperH boards.

If there are true kernel hackers, people interested in porting apps, testers, or people who are serious about tinkering with embedded Linux development feel free to stop by linuxdc.org. The developers are usually on #linuxdc on irc.openprojects.net.

Have fun, and thanks goes to Bill for the well-written article :P.

M. R.

Re:Why this is cool. by mrossbrown · 2001-09-25 03:47 · Score: 1

How is KOS better suited for this? The author of KOS has long since stated that for true OS development, you'd wanna stick with NetBSD or Linux/Dreamcast. Superior memory management, mature threading and network code, and easy of porting all make Linux a viable platform for DC development. *Ahem*, I meant embedded Linux development.

Most PC games use the mouse, with a lot of keyboard shortcuts. That won't work on a console.

Hmm, standard Linux apps seem to work fine with the keyboard and mouse I use with the Dreamcast. More talking out of your arse here?

If the Dreamcast has less, you've got problems. (And the resolution of a TV ain't great.)

Jesus, grab yourself a clue along with your VGA box from Lik Sang. It's USD $12.50.

It's pathetic how you seem so hellbent on providing advice and bashing something you haven't even had the courage to read a couple of websites about.

M. R.

What a waste... by huckda · 2001-09-25 05:33 · Score: 0, Flamebait

What a waste of perfectly good gaming system.
But hrm...maybe the next Nintendo will come with a CD-ROM design and perhaps they will team up with some linux distribution team to release a product on their console...and have Tux Racer for the game =) Woo!!!

Not too shabby a thought, for only $250 YOU TOO can be playing Tux Racer, have your own e-mail server, web server, and much much more!

Then have a disclaimer: Dumb-asses need not purchase.

--
"Just Smile and Nod." --Huck

ISO available by maxence · 2001-09-25 05:37 · Score: 0

DiscJuggler ISO available at dcemulation.com, that should save you a good amount of headache :)

Maxence

Just make sure it's an OLD dreamcast... by Anonymous Coward · 2001-09-25 07:34 · Score: 1, Informative

Dreamcasts manufactured after October, 2000 can't boot from CDRs [boob.co.uk - Dreamcast Research], which would put a serious dent on any plans for a farm of these DC+Linux boxes :(

Re:Just make sure it's an OLD dreamcast... by Anonymous Coward · 2001-09-25 14:54 · Score: 0

I thought that was the case, hence putting off buying a Dreamcast. I bought mine Aug 2001 and it is still pre-Oct 2000. Go figures for sales figures.
Re:Just make sure it's an OLD dreamcast... by jgerman · 2001-09-26 01:32 · Score: 2

Can anyone verify this though. Or at least explain where to find the manufacturing date on a DC?

--
I'm the big fish in the big pond bitch.
Re:Just make sure it's an OLD dreamcast... by Anonymous Coward · 2001-09-26 15:38 · Score: 0

Yep, I can verify it. I bought a dreamcast (manufactured Dec, 2000) the other day and found out the hard way (serves me right for not keeping on on my /. readings I guess). Luckily Walmart took it back.
The manufacturing date is on the label at the bottom the dreamcast unit "Manufactured on..."
This label can be easily viewed through the hole in the cardboard box that the dreamcast comes in so you can be sure you're not getting a "defective" unit before purchase. Went to a different Walmart, picked up a March 2000 unit. Bingo.
Re:Just make sure it's an OLD dreamcast... by jgerman · 2001-09-27 05:22 · Score: 2

Hmmm I took a chance and bought a used one last night, I didn't see a manufactured on on the unit. The girl at the store knew that the information was in the bar code but didn't know how to read it. I've seen on a couple of sites that the whole not reading CDR things was a rumor, soemthing that was never implemented in the US. Mine works, I'll check over it again to make see when it was made. Is it possible that you made a coaster the first time burning a disc for your original DC?

--
I'm the big fish in the big pond bitch.

Some info ..., by EGSonikku · 2001-09-25 08:23 · Score: 4, Informative

Ive seen a lot of questions asked about the Dreamcast, plus a few inaccuracies posted, so here is my sad little attempt to inform :)

Some people are too lazy to follow the link to see the Dreamcasts tech specs, so here is the condensed version:

Hitachi SH4 @ 200MHz
8MB NEC PowerVR2 Gfx
2MB Yamaha Audio
12x GD/CD Drive
16MB System RAM
56k Modem Included (US Model)

Also there is some confusion as to pricing. In the US the Dreamcast's MSRP is $79.95 and many stores are selling for less than that to clear out remaining stock.

As for Input, the Dreamcast has 4 controller ports and a Keyboard and Mouse are available through standard game outlets. So you couild have Keyboard, mouse, and even a gamepad plugged in (xmame ;p) with room to spare.

As for burning (and people having trouble doing so). Burning a bootable DC CDR can be tricky, any mistake WILL result in a coaster. There are several good dreamcast burning guides around at sites like http://www.boob.co.uk and http://mc.pp.se/dc/

Also despite rumors to the contrary, there are NO US or European Dreamcast's that won't boot CDR's. Sega only released 2 units in Japan ( The Sakura Tisen LE DC and the Hello Kitty DC) that won't boot CDR's. They had originaly wanted to do the same for the US, but Sega stopped production of the Dreamcast before this could be implemented.

Other than linux, there is also a Dremcast port of NetBSD (and indeed, this port seems to be more active than the linux port). Details @ http://www.netbsd.org/Ports/dreamcast/ .

Dan Potter has also made a homebrew Dreamcast/GBA Operating System / development library called KallistiOs (KOS) which is completly open source and well documented, which can be found at http://dcdev.allusion.net.

Hope this is usefull to someone !

--
- "Scientia non habet inimicum nisp ignorantem"

Re:Dreamcast is only 79 bucks and 49.00 by christm by xwred1 · 2001-09-25 08:36 · Score: 1

Unfortunately, the Dreamcast only has 16mb of ram.

This is really annoying, because with the distro from m17n.org I tried, I only had about 1.4mb free on bootup. I got infinite swap or something whenever I tried compiling something, so I couldn't really do anything terribly useful.

Hopefully, this one can get the memory trimmed down a bit further.

Linux on DC has been around for quite a while. by acoustix · 2001-09-25 09:05 · Score: 1

I remember reading an article on /. about this a LONG time ago. Come to think of it, there's been lots of rehashed stories on here lately. What gives?

--
"A plan fiendishly clever in its intricacies"- Homer Simpson

security features by tie_guy_matt · 2001-09-25 11:53 · Score: 1

I thought the DC (and all video consoles these days) comes with security features that prevent you from booting pirated games or playing out of region games. I didn't see anything in the article about overcoming those restrictions. Has Sega's scheme been so broken into that everyone now knows how to boot their own (which must look like a pirated) CD without anyproblem. Or is it not a problem because it is a CD-ROM and not a GD-ROM? Anyone know more about this?

Re:Some info ...,Power VR by Anonymous Coward · 2001-09-25 12:28 · Score: 0

"8MB NEC PowerVR2 Gfx"

So someone FINALLY got 3D out of this chip.
Shame I've already gotten rid of my Videologic Apocalypse 5D card. Interesting technology though.

Neither is stealing old stories!!! by acoustix · 2001-09-25 14:08 · Score: 1

As I pointed out before - This linux & dream cast story has been on /. before. What's with all of the rehashed stories lately?!?!?

--
"A plan fiendishly clever in its intricacies"- Homer Simpson

Why by Maxthemax2000 · 2001-09-26 03:34 · Score: 0

There is thing i dont understand, Why put an os on a gameing console?

--
No Sig

133 comments