Slashdot Mirror
Still More 'Copy Protected' CDs
maniac11 writes: "This story describes new CDs planned on being released by Universal Music Group that sport anti-copying technology. Not much in the way of actual details, but a heads up on a new plan to foil." Same price, worse product -- higher sales! Universal seems to be the first company to commit to downgrading its entire lineup over the next six months or so.
Lets hope it isn't like those Michael Jackson CDs.. wait a minute.. depending on the music, LETS hope for it ;-)
you can't damage Audio DVDs in same way. Tolerance
will be much lower for data corruption.
Who knew that a lossier product would cause cd's to follow.
These products should absolutely be labelled as "non-compatible" with the CD standard if they in any way are not compatible with other CD usages.
This includes playing on a computer. Many of the other "copy protection" schemes make it impossible to use them on a computer of any sort. Others degrade sound quality.
If they're not clearly labelled as such, I could see lawsuits over mis-representation of the product.
INIAL, IAJAMC.
MadCow.
I used to have a sig, but I set it free and it never came back.
Only to the rippers, my friend, only to the rippers. The average "Joe Public" could care less.
Ask your mom if she cares that she can't copy it to her computer or an MP3 player.
"Can I still copy it to a cassette tape to play in my Suburban?"
"Yes, mom."
"Then how is it 'broken'?"
BTW, SJ Mercury has a good story on this too.
sulli
RTFJ.
The only thing you can do when a vendor is providing a defective product is not purchase it. So, stop purchasing CDs, DVDs or other copy protected material. Encourage everyone you know to stop purchasing the same.
Otherwise, all you are doing is encouraging them to produce defective products.
..It'll be said again:
Return faulty products for refund or exchange. The marketplace rules, and if enough people return these cd's this technology goes to an early grave.
air and light and time and space
I buy a lot of records. Most of the stuff that I get isn't available on CD. What I think would be really cool is if companies putting out vinyl would give me a cd with mp3s of the songs on the records so I didn't have to rip them. I would end up buying a lot more stuff then.
Obviously the big record companies have no interest in doing this as they are more committed to maintaining their monopolies then providing a legitamate service, but it would be pretty dope if indie labels started doing that.
Fsck the millennium, we want it now.
Millennium Crisis Line: 0890 900 2000 [calls cost 50p/min]
The majority of consumers will never know the difference. The only people the record companies are offending here are the "geeks" who play CDs in their computers. Unfortunately, we're not the largest chunk of the consumer base (right now, it's teenagers), so they really don't give a rat's butt. The record companies are of the impression that we're not worth their time, since we take all the CDs and make illegal copies of them (heavy sarcasm alert).
I for one think it's exceptionally unethical to muck with standards like this. Of course, someone will figure a way to work around it, and the files will end up out there anyway. Those files will probably get pirated more just out of spite. The best thing any of us can do is boycott any "modified" CDs like this, and tell our friends to do so as well. It's been said before, speak with your wallet. That's what I intend to do.
Electronic Frontier Foundation for online civil rights information
Loop your line-out to your line-in, dump that all to WAV, encode to Ogg Vorbis.
Ta-da.
This sig is xenon coated, and will glow red when in the presence of aliens
Good point. Here is a question... Do they lose the ability to have the "Compact Disc" logo on thier case?
"Dude, sweet tunes! When did you buy the new XXXXXXX album?"
"Oh, I didn't buy it. I downloaded it. I woulda bought it, but you can't play CD's in your computer any more."
The next Slashdot story will be ready soon, but subscribers can beat the rush and slashdot the links early!
Yeah. Seeing as how I play CDs through my DVD player which has a digital coax out into my receiver, I'll be in touch with my lawyer with a quickness if I run into a CD that restricts my ability to listen to music that I've bought on my home system.
Someone needs to reverse-engineer these systems and release their findings in an encrypted format. You'll have violated the DMCA, but they'll have violated the DMCA proving it.
Easy does it!
This comment has been submitted already, 276865 hours , 59 minutes ago. No need to try again.
Who "owns" the "Compact Disc" logo? Also, who is in charge of keeping the standard? I'm sure those logos will still be on there.
As reported a few weeks back, a woman has already filed suit for mislabeling of her CD. Haven't heard any updates on this though. Anyone seen anything else about it?
https://www.eff.org/https-everywhere
I might be just a little pissed off if I was part
of a company marketing high-end home and car cd players
that utilized cd-rom drives and now Universal
decides to make their disks such that they won't
play on my head units and players...
I would be all about lawsuits for lost business
and research
A year spent in artificial intelligence is enough to make one believe in God.
Philips, IIRC.
Seriously, I have bought maybe 15 cds in the past 3 years. Three of those were replacements of cds I'd have for years had been remastered, and the rest were by bands that allow me and others like me to freely record and trade their live concerts. Radiohead and U2 are two big name acts that have recently figured out that people who trade their concerts are more likely to buy their albums and attend their concerts than someone who doesn't trade.
Check out the links above, there is something for all tastes. There is plenty of music to be had for the price of your bandwidth and blank CDs.
newsflash: Anything I can listen to, I can record. You can too!
Checkout This Incredible Idea: Run a cable from your portable cd player to the audio-in on your computer. Play+Record the track. Run resulting file through mp3 encoder. Viola, you now have an mp3 of a 'protected' cd. Sure, it isn't a digital extraction from the cd, but I bet the average mp3-downloader couldn't tell the difference anyway.
All it takes is one person getting a decent recording of the cd for it to get in circulation on p2p servivices like gnutella.
If you can download these copy-protected cd's for free anyway, then the copy protection is worthless!
___
The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason. --Ben Franklin
How will this affect car audio systems? I know alot them can play burned CD-R's and CD-RW's as well as pulling data like track names off, so I assume that they use the same type of drive as a computer does.
Also, most of the old CD-Rom drives, as well as some new ones, have stereo miniplugs for headphones in the front, will you be able to play these cd's through that? I doubt it based on the previous reports of "no disc detected" but you never know.
I think most people buy cd's to listen to in their car anyway, or at least, that's where the majority of music listening takes place, so if they're not compatible with car audio then the industry is going to have a lot of irate consumers on their hands.
May you be touched by His Noodly Appendage. RAmen.
A lot of the most interesting stuff is out on vinyl first or only (what all those uberhip DJs carry around in their milk crates). This is a trend we want to encourage.
sulli
RTFJ.
Is anyone working on a website where a consumer can go and see how broken his or her possible purchase is, before they buy it?
Now, obviously the Slashdot vibe is that this is a flawed model for making music, and I'm inclined to agree. That is why you should be supporting independent artists who don't pull this copy-protection bullshit on their listeners. The media cartel only exists because people keep fueling it and voting with their dollars; if we want to beat it, we need to make our own content. Support independent films, musicians, and other artists who do their work for the love of it. Hell, make your own music and give it away on the Internet; there's bound to be somebody who likes it, no matter what it is. Hell, there are people who like listening to white noise.
As long as you continue to buy mainstream CDs and DVDs, you are going to have to take whatever copy-protection measures the publishers decide to incorporate. If you don't like their terms, take your money elsewhere. That's how our society works.
Loneliness is a power that we possess to give or take away forever
Their defense would probably be that the intention of the CDs they are selling is to be used to play music in a standard CD music player. No where is it stated that they have to allow non-musical-playback purposes.
If the argument is then that they are degrading audio quality, you have to prove that audio quality is degraded. It's not that hard to design the intentional errors so that the interpolation produces the value that would normally be in the music (or very close to it).
I highly doubt that an A/B test would be able to find the difference to any ears.
Sometimes it's best to just let stupid people be stupid.
If the industry is losing billions to copying, and they've made it impossible, we can expect to see prices fall to say $4.99, right? Or were they lying about napster....
According to this, the "Compact Disc Digital Audio" logo can only be used "on discs complying with the CD-DA specification: IEC 60908 and/or the Philips-Sony Compact Disc Digital Audio System Description) also known as the RED Book)."
Someone set up a domain. "CopyproofCDs.org" or something. Make a list of every copy-proof CD out there.
Then we need to get people to sign up and deliberately go out and buy them.
Here's the fun part.
Once you've bought them and opened them up, return them.
Do this ad nauseum. On your way home from work or school, on the way to the store, or when you're at the mall. Just return a copy. They'll have to throw it out. Ask for another copy of the same album. Bring in a laptop to prove to them that it doesn't play in your computer. What can they do? They HAVE to give you your money back or give you a new copy of the damned CD.
Now, if we get THOUSANDS of people doing this -- and we can, this is slashdot we're talking about -- record companies will soon realize that there's NO money to be made in copy-proof CDs.
Good idea?
"Remember when the U.S. had a drug problem, and then we declared a War On Drugs, and now you can't buy drugs anymore?"
How about we return it for a refund? If enough people did that they'd have to stop!
You know, I bet we could just take the digital-out of the cdplayer and pipe it into our soundcard....
Even a D-A-D conversion would be a little lossy, but after that we could copy as much as we wanted.
Damn those RIAA bastards to hell! They're releasing defective CDs!
These go against the redbook standard. For shame.
Hey, I think I'm witty! I'll make a list of all the comments that people will make in the article because that's all people ever say in these articles! Oh, wait....
-Denor
And I just spent $500+ on my spiffy Kenwood MP3 player. I guess I'll just have to get my MP3s to play in my car off those war3z sit3z and ftp3z.
Shame too, because all I was doing was making it more convenient to keep lots of music in my car. It also makes me happier as the person(s) who broke into my car is just a little more screwed since they won't be able to profit (oh, and not pay royalties) off the cds s/he stole.
So I take it this means that cd-duping is supposed to be eliminated ("more difficult")?
Really... I wonder when they're going to demand that used cd stores pay the record industries for the lost profits.
Idiots. All of them.
Since this copy protection method works by throwing in errors which (most) CD players will simply interpolate over, won't this make these CDs much less tolerant to scratches & fingerprints? If this is the case, this would be a pretty big reason to stay away from these CDs. Blah. Time to invest in a new needle for my phonograph...
This logo may be used on discs complying with the CD-DA specifications: the IEC 908 standard and/or the Philips-Sony Compact Disc Digital Audio System Description (the RED Book).
There are 12 different logos all with different requirements for permitted use. What I don't know is if these new discs would violate _every_ one of these standards resulting in the publisher's inability to use any "compact disc" logo.
The reason why the record industry is doing poorly is because they sued Napster and shut them down. I used Napster to listen to music I liked but couldn't find on the radio. If I liked a song enough I went out and actually bought the CD that the song existed on. It isn't enough for me to download the song onto the one machine I have dedicated for that task, I wanted to be able to listen to the whole CD and that meant that I bought it.
The music industry shuts down Napster, which automatically makes me angry at the music industry. So I stop buying CD's from the music industry. Not only that, but I also stop buying things I can copy music onto. Like blank CDs and disk drives and such. Those companies loose sales because not only do I stop buying CDs, but also so did two million other people. This means that probably a dozen, maybe two dozen companies suddenly can't pay their bills. They start laying off people and maybe they go out of business and maybe they just scale back but the fact is, they are in a recession. So those dozen or two dozen companies employ something like a quarter of a million people and of those maybe something like fifty thousand are now out of work. Those people now half to scale back on everything if they don't want to loose what they still have. No to mention the 200,000 people that are still working but are now terrified that they are next. But these people aren't the only ones who are scared. People read about it in the newspapers and they begin to think: "I don't think I'm going to buy that new cell phone today. I can afford it, but God, look at the economy." Before you know it we are in a full scale recession. This is because some record executive was afraid he might loose sales on CDs for Twisted Sister or Metallica.
They have their cause and effect really screwed up. They say, "It's all those people out there copying this stuff that's hurting us." It isn't that. Most people I know are fairly honest and if they make copies its almost always for themselves to use on some medium the record company didn't think of. Most people aren't buying music from these companies because they see how much the artists and the companies themselves hate their customers. It is this contempt for their customers that has put them in this pickle. Now they grind salt into their own self inflicted wounds and make it so that you can only copy onto a blank CD. This ought to make there customers happy.
Beware the wood elf!!!
The Compact Disc logo is owned by Phillips.
g os .html
http://www.licensing.philips.com/cdsystems/cdlo
The right to use the logo is as follows:
"This logo may be used on discs complying with the CD-DA specification: IEC 60908 and/or the Phillips-Sony Compact Disc Digital Audio System Description (also known as the RED Book)"
Players have similar restrictions. So if the disc dosen't play on your "Compact Disc" labeled device and it is labeled "Compact Disc" one of them is lying, or the spec is too loose.
This only works as long as computer CD-ROM drives don't allow interpolation of digital data. Are there any drives out there that allow that as an option? If not, I wouldn't be surprised to see them spring up soon.
Sometimes it's best to just let stupid people be stupid.
Why? Because it has no licensing issues, silly. And - guess what - this is just ideal for high volume, low cost enterprises. Once Linux devices really start to take off, (and they will - people just won't know what they really are) - you will hearing gorgeous Ogg Vorbis sound everywhere.
Besides, Ogg Vorbis should win on it's fantastical name alone..
Stop the brainwash
Audiophile labels still produce a ton of vinyl. There are even some major artists who's records are available on vinyl; R.E.M. and Radiohead both come to mind. As a matter of fact, every single album R.E.M. has ever released is availble in vinyl from Amazon.com.
"The guide is definitive, reality is frequently inaccurate."
Philips does, and according to the rules stated in the rule book on their web site:
This logo may only be used on discs complying with the CD-DA specification: IEC 60908 and/or the Philips-Sony Compact Disc Digital Audio System Description (also known as the RED Book)
I would have thought that really high speed tape would be the ultimate choice of audiophiles. Isn't that what the studio masters are (typically) done on?
"Prefiero morir de pie que vivir siempre arrodillado!"
Interesting to see how that turns out. I mean, they're bastardizing a published standard and selling the product as compatible with that standard. Jeez, if they weren't all in the same bed, I'd expect Phillips to sue them ;)
Does anyone know of web site that lists such albums. I would like to start purchasing them and returning them as defective to every record store in a 20 mile radius.
Now with these new CDs, because they're copy-protected, a ripper for them violates the DMCA. So these new pieces of software which allow the contents of a CD containing copyrighted music to be converted into a plain old ordinary computer file are wholly illegal. Which is kinda odd, really, seeing as how they do the exact same thing.
I know that's nothing you didn't aready know, but I just thought I'd get it off my chest.
If there's one thing this argument needs, it's a catchy label. If copy-prevention on CD's get slapped with a 'downgrade' label, it'll be dead before it gets any momentum. Joe Sixpack will NEVER stand for it and the media will have a field day demonstrating car stereos and home computers balking at the latest N'Sync CD.
We should push this rhetoric HARD.
Let's not forget about Dave Matthews Band. They had the foresight to pass on several offers from record companies because they wanted one of them to guarantee them the right to allow their fans to record concerts and swap songs. For that reason, while I have not bought a new CD in months, and don't intend to, I will make a small exception to my boycott and buy them -- assuming they don't allow copy protection to be foisted off on their CDs, in which case, I'll have to take a pass on that, too, since I almost exclusively listen to them on my box while working.
Am I bad for business? I've bought every album, some more than once because of mishap, plus their bio CD and a pair of DVDs (one was videos, one was a concert). I've also been to two of their concerts and would gladly go to another, and snap up their professionally recorded live albums eagerly.
What's to prevent someone from producing CD-ROM drivers that just emulate whatever it is that the audio error correction hardware does? I would expect such software to emerge from the bazaar pretty quickly. Is there some deeper hardware issue here?
-- Remember that we live in a world where all the really big decisions are made by people with short attention spans.
BS. Vinyl is for audiophiles who have fooled themselves into thinking that vinyl's coloration of the sound is "better."
The best analog may be better than the best digital (although those differences become vanishingly slim), but vinyl is NOT good analog and isn't even better than CD (a moderately good digital format). In fact there has NEVER been a good consumer analog format.
Vinyl suffers from poor S/N ration, compression, inconsistency from the outer to inner grooves, poor dynamic range, distortion, degradation of the sound with EACH play, and fragility. A truly BAD format.
Vinyl continues to survive for self-deluding audiophiles, DJ's who like the convenience of turntables for mixing, and nostalgia buffs.
Sony Music Entertainment recently said the CD of Michael Jackson's new single "You Rock My World" was distributed to European radio stations with protection software after the song started showing up on the Internet.
I think it's funny that the author of the story chose to point out the absurdity of this sequence of events in this subtle way.
What were the record execs thinking? "Hey, everyone who wanted to pirate a copy of this Michael Jackson song already has. In retaliation, let's hurt our paying customers! That will show 'em!"
That's not closing the barn door after the horse has gone - that's setting fire to the barn to teach it a lesson.
Why wouldn't someone simply start a service where users can report technical complaints about CDs.
This way it would be possible to reference this database before a purchase and be able to determine the ability to rip it based on others experience. If it's a title that's protected, sipmly don't buy it.
I agree this stuff should be labeled but that's nothing more than a pipe dream. Instead of just complaining about the problem, let's do something about it!
Someone mentioned below about starting a website. If you are going to do a boycott you need to set up a central location for people to log activity. That way, the industry will know how much money they are losing through the boycott.
Like flashing a DVD to be reigonless, maybe people will make firmware upgrades that allow these 'protected' CDs to be played in PCs.
Sure, it will depend on whether your CD Rom drive can be flashed (and it probably can't if it is a plain reader, not writer or DVD), but I guess those that are informed (i.e. the rippers) will look for CD devices that have the required features. Those that don't know will just remain inconvenienced and in the dark.
As for piracy. It won't stop it, nothing can while CD prices are so high. Just get a PC and HIFI with SPDIF I/O and you presumable can make mp3's to put on Napster (or what ever is taking it's place).
-- Mike
The only thing I think this might prohibit is digital audio extraction - if you're using the S/PDIF output of a CD ROM drive, you should get the full digital info, just at 1X speed. Full digital quality, no loss. The audio portion (like the headphone out jack and digital audio out via S/PDIF) is independent of the IDE interface. Once it starts playing, it just keeps going.
I don't see how they could hobble the normal playback mode of a CD ROM - is this actually the case, or do they just hamper direct digital extraction? I just haven't had the slightest urge to buy a Michael Jackson or Charley Pride CD to try this out...
+5:offtopic,but anti-American
IANAL:
The point of the supposed lawsuit is that there is a 'Compact disc' logo on the disc itself. That claims compliance with the compact disc standard as developed by Phillips long ago. That standard includes specifications which allow the disc to be read in a cd-rom drive.
If this isn't supported in the crappy discs, then it isn't compliant with the compact disc standard and therefore shouldn't wear the logo.
I think a lot of posters are assuming that Phillips will automatically be "against" the copyright protection because it does not adhere to their standard. Truth is, if they are getting royalties for each CD that is pumped out, I do not think they will be against it, or they can alter their standard to adhere to the copyright protection.
I expect them to change the standard to accomodate the new "copy protection" features.
The executive envisioned protection software that placed no restrictions on conventional cassette copies of CDs and some restrictions on digital copies.
I'd love to see how they would place restrictions on cassette copying - It can't be done in this manner, the cassette is just recording the analog output of the music. They say this as if its a 'feature' that they are throwing in out of the kindness of their hearts- "hey, look- we won't limit cassette copies"
As far as interactive content goes, thats another smoke screen, Its not as if this isn't already being done and is a 'feature' of this new technology. I've seen CD's with 'interactive content' before (Beasty Boys-Hello Nasty). Oh look! A link to the bands website! How very interactive!
air and light and time and space
That claims compliance with the compact disc standard as developed by Phillips long ago.
That standard also allows for interpolation of bad data by the CD player, I believe.
That standard includes specifications which allow the disc to be read in a cd-rom drive.
Does it? As far as I know, the CD standard was not originally intended for data, although it ended up as a useful carrier of data. I would be surprised if the standard doesn't have the words "music playback" all over it, rather than "data storage that can be used for music playback".
Sometimes it's best to just let stupid people be stupid.
Try bringing up LimeWire, BearShare, WinMX, etc. and looking for MIchael Jackson's new single (which was released with this "protection"). Count the hits you get.
Whoops. Guess that didn't work so well.
Okay...the latest tripe gets shipped to Blockbuster, Best Buy, etc...
:)
They put it on the shelves right in alphabetical order where it should be. Do you really think the consumers will care if it says "Compact Disc Digital Audio" on it? As long as it's in a jewel case the size of a CD, it won't matter.
I'm looking at Pink Floyd's "A Momentary Lapse of Reason" right now. Nowhere on the outside, which you would see in the store, does it say anything about it being a CD. I see it in 4 places as soon as I open the case, but I also see this shiny metal disc which I assume is the CD, even if it didn't say so
Yeah...it would be a way to sue them if they marked them as such, but it's not gonna hurt them if they don't.
My response, as a consumer, is to take my music pirating up a notch. Where as before I spent a predetermined budget on the CDs I wanted the most, I'm now going to pirate everything, save the indy bands I like.
Remember, people, the ball (money) is in our court. We need to understand collectively that music piracy is a legitimate form of protest against these damaged products being sold. Use it.
----- sXe
Won't boycotting CDs and DVDs just play into their hands? If we can actually impact sales such that they stay flat instead of increasing like they should (all things being equal), won't they just see that as evidence of "pirating"? And work even harder at "copy protection"?
Maybe what we should do is buy MORE CDs and DVDs - make them so profitable that they drop their rediculous encryption and copy protection crusades because the crusade will be COSTING them more money than it saves them.
Ok, let the flaming begin 8-)
It occurs to me that this desision also has the effect of pissing off microsoft. The order of microsoft's desires of features is as follows: they would prefer if only they had a certain useful feature but at times they can allow others to have such a feature but detest the idea of the feature being impossible to them. Not being able to play cds on windows media player is going to piss them off. My guess is once they start throwing their weight around some back door will be put in that allows new microsoft products to play these cds. Once such a back door is in place it will not be a serious challenge to reverse engineer it.
Sony may work to change the standard as they have something at stake in the music industry, but Phillips doesn't and thus doesn't care. That's why you don't see "bit accurate" CD copiers advertised by Sony, but you do Phillips.
Brian Eno did that 15 years ago.
Je t'aime Stéphanie
It is clearly stated in the documentation for cd players dvd players, cd-rom drives etc. that they are compatible with any disc bearing the cd digital audio logo.
And these discs still are compatible with CD-ROM players -- as long as you play audio. You only run into trouble when you try and pull digital data from them. There is no guarantee that CDs are free from digital defects. In fact, the standard specifically allows digital defects.
Sometimes it's best to just let stupid people be stupid.
"Hey, Mom, would you care if you can't play CDs on your computer?"
"Uh, YES, don't you remember? That's how I play all my CDs."
"Hey, Dad, would you care that you can't rip CDs to your computer?"
"Well, yes, because I copy all my CDs to MP3s so I don't need a CD changer to listen to them in sequence."
I suppose my parents may be weird though. After all, my Dad listens to country... (and he's got *all* his CDs on his computer as MP3s, but then again, he works for Digital - er, Compaq - er, HP). My Mom does some work with editting webpages, so I guess she can be considered a "technical" type.
But I know many people who I wouldn't consider a "nerd" who use their computer to play CDs straight. And they'll be mightly pissed if they can't listen to their new CDs on their $2000 laptop...
Don't forget, computers are slowly becoming "entertainment centers." My Mom basically gave up on her little CD player she used to use to play CDs and now (would) play her CDs via her CD-ROM drive -- except that she uses AudioGalaxy now. (And the incident with the CD-ROM door being stuck shut. Ignoring that...) Her computer sounds better than her small "portable stereo."
My sister (who is definately not a tech-type at all) uses her computer to play CDs - which, considering she only uses it for homework any other time should tell you something. (Although she has a "real" CD-player now she uses instead. It's a portable CD-player with headphones which is the real selling point.)
Many people who own a computer - a growing portion of the population - especially in the "pop music" set - end up playing CDs through it. Sometimes it's because the computer is in a separate room from the stereo and they want to listen to music while doing homework. Sometimes it's because they want to rip the 2-CD set and listen straight through them without swapping disks.
Legal digital music is becoming a way of life for the "younger" generation. Go through practically any college and you'll find that most of the music pumping these days is either a mix CD or straight MP3s being played through a high-fi stereo system. (With more colleges requiring computers, college students stick with the tool that works - if we can't spend $500 on a stereo, we'll use the $1000 computer we had to get instead...) It may not be near 50% of music listeners yet, but it's at least 10% - which is a lot of listeners to potentially permentantly alienate.
You are in a maze of twisty little relative jumps, all alike.
I say do that and to hell with these people - rip the tracks and spread them far and wide. Then we'll see how far their expensive and liberty infringing copy protection gets them.
Will the inevitable methods to transfer these CD's be labled a DCMA violation?
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
My CD changer is connected to my receiver via Toslink (optical) cable. Will this type of setup be affected by these non-Redbook CDs? Will I be receiving the same bitstream as if the CD wasn't "downgraded"? Likewise, for SPDIF coax digital connections to receivers? (Non speculative answers or real links would be appreciated.)
The original intent of my post was to suggest that the only way for them NOT to get sued is to be BLATANTLY clear that it is not a "normal" CD.
This doesn't mean just ommitting the "CD" logo, it means putting a "warning label" on it of some sort, explaining the differences.
If I market a product that is deceptively similar to a common product, and "let users believe" that it is the same, I am guilty of deceptive marketing and misrepresentation. "Deceptively similar" is the key word... misleading people through similarities to another product and not noting that it's different is as bad as advertising it as something it isn't in the first place.
MadCow
I used to have a sig, but I set it free and it never came back.
Record stores will just change their return policy, long before it ever gets to the point where its a blip on the radar screen of the corporate suits at Universal.
As long as content providers want to be compatible with general purpose HW, every copy protection scheme they come up with will be a house of cards that is held up only by legal attacks against transgressors.
Since paying for a whole new set of proprietary HW is just not a practical plan they're doomed - they should roll over and give up right now.
I only used Napster (and other such MP3 services and so forth) to aquire music that was impossible to find in stores, thus buy, or to download music from artists that had said they supported their fans sharing music in that manner.
Last year I spent >$200 on CDs. The RIAA certainly made money off of me. However, now the RIAA wants to curtail my ability of fair use? Naturally, I'll be less inclined to buy CDs I can't use in all of my players. Not to mention that I consider these CDs that are "protected" to be defective. Of course, I might be inclined to buy again if I can have a tool to bypass their schemes (which will more than likely be illegal under the DMCA).
Case in point. I don't want to buy CDs that are defective (either intentionally or not). RIAA is losing my business by curtailing my ability to listen to my CD in the format I choose.
"You spoony bard!" -Tellah
Actually, it is becoming increasingly common for CD-ROMs in computers to use CDDA to extract & play audio instead of a direct analog hookup to the sound card.
All recent Mac's are like this, and recent pc clones are also being built this way.
Out of the three computers at home that I use the most (iBook w/internal DVD drive, iMac w/internal CD-ROM, and Dell w/internal CD-R/RW), only one (the Dell) has an analog connection from the CD drive to the sound card... the other two use digital extraction, and thus can't play these CD's.
CD player SPDIF output => computer soundcard with digital in.
Presto!
There's 10 types of people in this world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
Seriously though, the analog loop trick will work of course, but some hacker will write a digital ripper that bypasses the protection and release it anonymously on the 'net anyway.
"The minority, the ruling class at present, has the schools and press, usually the Church as well, under its thumb. This enables it to organize and sway the emotions of the masses, and make its tool of them." - Albert Einstein, 1932
"Mind, as manifested by the capacity to make choices, is to some extent present in every electron." -Freeman Dyson
Their defense would probably be that the intention of the CDs they are selling is to be used to play music in a standard CD music player. No where is it stated that they have to allow non-musical-playback purposes.
And my rebuttal to that defense would be that my car player or computer is a standard music player. It plays any standard CDDA red book disk.
What possible use would I be buying their CD for other than for the purpose of musical playback? I want to play it in my car. I want to play it in my computer. I want to play it in my pocket mp3 player.
Those who would give up liberty in exchange for security and DRM should switch to Microsoft Palladium!
And its our right to make fair use of a product by overriding their protection measures. We have as much right to override them as they do to put them there. It is NOT like breaking into someone's house, there you are breaking a protection system (lock, etc) to do something intrinsically illegal. Breaking copy protection to infringe is illegal, but doing so to make fair use shouldn't be. Fair use is legal.
(If some random person, not acting on orders from the local gov't, padlocks the public park, it would be legal to break that bogus lock. And the one that put the lock there would likely be in trouble. It would be nice if obstructing fair use were similarly illegal.)
Even the DMCA itself says it doesn't affect fair use. Anything that violates fair use is also unconstitutional.
Of course, Judge Kaplan ignores all that (DeCSS case), and he isn't the only one out there.
So we morally, and according to the letter of the law as I understand it, have the right for "self-help" to get back fair use, but not according to the gov't. As they can assess monetary penalties and even lock you up, we need to keep in mind that we need more than just a technical solution.
We need to repeal the DMCA.
Of course, anyone that knows of a defeat method or code, please do let us know.
Just because it CAN be done, doesn't mean it should!
I don't do shit either, but I at least have enough social awareness to realize that I'm not the only one.
Constant cries for "everyone else" to partake in boycotts and demonstrations are as useless as doing nothing.
I suggest for people to "put up or shut up". I'm tired of reading "Boycott the RIAA!! Oooh, the new Barenaked Ladies CD is out - I'll be right back."
And I guess out of reciprocal antagonism I must now ask you, friend - what have you done?
Sorry to reply to my own post - I found further information from Phillips on licensing terms for their patented CD-DA technology:
l 00 131.pdf
http://www.licensing.philips.com/partner/data/s
It basically says that if you pay the license fee, you can use the logo. Nothing in it says that your CD _must_ meet their standard, only that in order to produce a CD using their patented technology, you must agree to their terms which include money, money and more money.
This is far from definitive, but it would seem that a company could license their technology, produce compact discs with the tm logo, but as long as you keep up with the license fees, Phillips and Sony probably wouldn't care if you mangled the layout.
If your idea if winning includes statuatory damages of $250 (MINIMUM) to $2500, actual monetary damages (i.e. whatever they hoodwink the judge into thinking you cost them), and possibly 5 years in prison (NO PAROLE ALLOWED IN FEDERAL PRISON) if you at all financially benefitted (*) from it, yeah, in that case, I'd say we have a good chance of winning.
* In the copyright law "financially benefit" has been redefined to include non-monetary benefits!
See the DMCA and how Judge Kaplan interprets it as removing fair use in the DeCSS trial (*) for more info.
(*) The DeCSS defendants have been ORDERED TO PAY COURT COSTS, i.e. ordered to pay the court for their own persecution by the court. It would be like me throwing a rock and you and billing you for the cost of the rock.
Just because it CAN be done, doesn't mean it should!
So I agree that current standards for digital sound recording on DVD-Audio may solve the problem with 24 bit sampling rate and 96,000 hertz at the high end.
Nah...they ARE warmer and richer than CD, but its NOT as the sound purists believe. Vinyl acts as an effect adding subtle distortions and a different compression than are available in the digital realm.
:-)
The first several CDs I bought sounded AWFUL compared to my vinyl so the first thing I did years ago is transfer all my vinyl to CD even if I had it on disc (back in the days when a blank CD was $10 -- if ya could find it that cheap...no rip offs here) and they sounded just as good as the vinyl did.
Most of us use some sort of analogue warming stage for our music when recording to digital. If I was recording to vinyl, I'd probably go cold and digital and leave all the 1s and 0s in tact.
Vinyl purists just need to stop telling themselves that they are getting more information in a more pristeen format because they aren't. They are just coloring their much in the same way that they complain about folks using EQs because they want to hear ultraflat response frequencies.
Just an aside
clif
It stands to reason that the biggest enemy of these non-standard CDs has to be the consumer electronics industry. They've seen a huge sales of burners, players, software, blanks, labels and all the other paraphernalia that goes with the make-your-own-CD revolution.
Limiting or preventing ripping of CDs seems like a real threat to not just Johnny Digital's passtime but of those in the electronics industry whose livlihood relies on consumers legitimately being able to rip CDs.
How soon until they fire back with firmware upgrades or other hardware hacks that overcome the copy protection gimmicks? And how will the music industry respond when this stuff is sold with the claim "Now compatible with new CDS!"?
Another 'broken record' recently released is Heather Nova's new album 'South'. At least on the German version (UK release is not till Monday)
Apparently there's a small warning 'will not play on PCs'
If you want to buy a CD just to play with the copy protection, I'd suggest this one.... (Although her earlier 'Oyster' is *far* better)
Dave
If it simply doesn't work, I'll be demanding a full refund (from the place of sale) and writing the label a nastygram letting them know they've lost my business over it, much the same as I write my representatives nastygrams. If it damages my equipment (as some of these "protection" (read: strongarm) methods are purported to have the ability to do), you'd better believe I'll be in touch with a lawyer.
The Gza admonished us to check the labels, and I do. When I buy new, I consciously look for indie labels' releases before I look to majors.
If copy protection is the myopic way of the future, it'll be exclusively indies and the majors that don't employ copy protection that receive my spending dollars.
Easy does it!
This comment has been submitted already, 276865 hours , 59 minutes ago. No need to try again.
7.5 IPS is far more common. 30 IPS players had too much trouble with Wow and Flutter. Plus the trade off between resolution and capacity is too drastic. It's like the difference between encoding at 360Kbps and 160. For reference, the average car casette is 1.875 IPS.
60 Minute tape @ 1.875 IPS =
15 Minute tape @ 7.5 IPS =
2 Minute tape @ 30 IPS.
It is far more common to improve resolution by writing fewer tracks. Also, the tape manufacturing has come a long way...
BTW, The real problem with digital is it's unnatural reaction to saturation. They try to combat this with the High and Low pass filters, but the result is not satisfactory.
The history of music signal processing is all about trying to re-create the limitations of earlier equipment. Your distortion pedal mimics an overheated tube, compressor mimics less than ideal tape media.
Digital Mixing is the most popular form of music editing. It is so much more flexible than good old analog. Even those who still use the analog processes do it either in a "studio-live" environment where no extensive editing will need to be done after, or mix the tracks digital to get a final draft, and then mix the final track from the analog.
This is why the first Kent State memorial song came out almost 2 months later, while Tom Petty's Rondney King riot song only took 9 days. On a side note, they sang about the terrible riots, but not about the savage beating he recieved at the hands of some overzealous cops.
~Hammy
What worries me most about record labels introducing non-copyable CDs etc is that they are infringing upon the rights of other users under copyright law.
I'm in Australia, but I can get in trouble for copying an American CD because the reach of the DMCA is not limited to US shores, because I could theoretically be damaging Universal etc.
However, I have rights under Australian copyright law to duplicate CDs for the purpose of broadcasting under the 'ease of use' provisions because I work in radio.
Which law overrides the other? How do I even know what rights I have?
I just find it so annoying that laws which are enacted in one country can have such an impact across the world. Think Universal will make a copyable batch of its CDs for those of us who do have duplication rights? Nope, didn't think so.
I don't see how fixing the standard windows CDROMS driver so it plays CDs can be a DMCA violation.
Looking for an Information Security student project suggestion?
Try http://dotcrimeManifesto.com/
The pathetic thing is that I can rip those tracks to HDD, then burn them to CD instead of making a full copy of the CD, and it will play! So much for copy "protection."
As an audio purist ever in search of better sound quality, the very idea of purposely degrading my signal source with digital fingerprints and copy protection is just pushing me to buy fewer and fewer CDs. I am not willing to pay for damaged goods, and I can't see how messing with my audio source can be viewed as anything but damaging.
As to piracy, I own a grand total of one pirated CD -- a copy of Willie Dixon's "Gingerale Afternoon" that I haven't been able to find anywhere in over 5 years. (At least not for a sane price -- there are a couple online shops that are willing to sell me a copy for $27+shipping.)
There are another 5-10 CDs that I'd pirate for the same reason, but I can't even find someone who owns an original, much less a place to buy those albums.
On the downside, my reduced purchases have absolutely no impact on the big labels as most of my purchases are from much smaller studios like Blind Pig Records. Odds are these smaller companies don't have the volume to invest in so-called copy-protection technologies, but if they farm out the AD conversion and manufacture to bigger companies I'll end up having to skip their products as well.
For those using the so-called CD player in their computer, if you actually cared about the music you'd spring for a CD portable regardless of the copy protection issue. The players built into a computer have so much signal interference and low-quality chip amps that they just aren't worth listening to!
I do not fail; I succeed at finding out what does not work.
I bought the new CD from Einstürzende Neubauten (Berlin Babylon soundtrack). On the case it says, in German, that the CD cannot be played on computers. My DVD-ROM drive and PlexWriter act like it is a blank CD-R. My CD player does recognize it, with some effort -- it takes a few seconds of seeking before the CD will begin to play. The CD clearly "breaks" the CD standard, but not badly enough that a standalone unit can't plow through it.
I have not yet tried it in my standalone DVD player, or tried to send the digital output into a DAT deck or pro sound card.
You may notice -- unfortunately I do not have the URL -- that BMG backed off one of their protection schemes due to 2% difference in returns. It is quite possible that this latest scheme will cause just enough grief among consumers that other companies will back off as well.
The CD-R has replaced the "mixtape", and today's tech-savvy population is not likely to stand still for this for long. People have been able to take it for granted for about 20 years that you can compile tracks from different discs (CD, vinyl) onto the medium of choice (cassette, CD-R). The people who buy the most music also make the most "mixtapes", and turn other people on to new artists that way. I couldn't count the number of people I turned on to how many bands over the years this way. Napster just brought this type of "promotion" to a different scale. Unfortunately the media giants do not seem to appreciate the value of free publicity.
Not buying achieves nothing. No-one will notice. Your sacrifice only serves to lower your own quality of life.
What I'm thinking you should do is buy CDs. Take them home and rip them. If they don't rip, take them back and get a refund. This FORCES the store to take notice, and data on the number of returns goes all the way up the distribution chain to the asshole execs who try to work out exactly how unethical a policy they can get away with.
I'm new to this country and don't know much about consumer rights laws here. Given that CD stores are reluctant to take back used CDs (and sometimes have a policy against it), it would be useful for us to know our rights. That the CD violates your right to format-shift might be sufficient grounds that they cannot legally refuse the refund, as might the misrepresentation of the product looking like a CD but not playing in all CD players. I don't know.
If someone like the EFF could get a lawyer to write a page explaining our consumer rights with regards to these degraded-CDs, that would be very useful. It may be that the matter is legally grey and we wait for the results of lawsuits. In which case, it's up to us to not take "no" for an answer when demanding our money back.
As a mix of protest and consumer rights enforcement, could get some lawyers to draft a small contract saying "I am buying this CD on the understanding that it will play on all CD players, as confirmed by the salesperson. If this is not a CD-player compatible product, it can be returned for a full refund".
If the sales person refuses to sign, ask them to get the manager to sign it. If neither will, you walk out of the store leaving them with the CD and the unsigned contract.
Either way you win - they can't help but remember such an example of consumer concern, and if they sign, you can get a refund no-matter what their store policy if the CD is degraded.
Is format-shifting is a consumer right in the USA? (I'm new here)
Thoughts?
Complain. Loudly. Make it heard that you don't want to receive inferior merchandise. The more returns that the record companies receive, the less they'll be tempted to rip the consumer off this way again.
I always thought Einstürzende Neubauten were a forward thinking progressive band anyway, and wouldn't want to be associated with this kind of nonsense.
From the CNet article, September 25, 2001:
From IMDB StudioBrief, September 26, 2001:
So which is it? Lost sales? Or record sales?
(I also think that predicting a drop in music sales due to The Attack is disingenuous---I actually suspect that music sales won't be affected at all, and may even increase a little.)
Don't worry though.. you weren't replying to a sig, sigs have a max of 120 chars, I looked that one up specifically for that post from this site.
On that note, here's another one:
"The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources." - Einstein
Whoops.. I just broke that one. ;)
"Mind, as manifested by the capacity to make choices, is to some extent present in every electron." -Freeman Dyson
It all depends on what they say. If they say sales are falling, well, that's the way it is. But if they say sales are rising, well, rejoice! Next we'll have larger chocolate rations.
It all makes sense.
What we call folk wisdom is often no more than a kind of expedient stupidity.-Edward Abbey
and I was about to buy it too... I guess I won't.
I'm inclined to just find out how I could send 20 bucks to the band itself... perhaps next time they are in town I shall go do that at the concert.
What we call folk wisdom is often no more than a kind of expedient stupidity.-Edward Abbey
Said that - I perfectly understand what this phono freaks mean - psychoacoustics - when you take your brain into the equation.. Your ear make a weird transform, somewhat closer to wavelet time-frequency one, then to Fourier. Then you evaluate the result using a lot of strange rules, which I have little knowledge about.
But why not to state it straight? That vinyl causes such reproduction that is pleasant to hear, that's it.. No pseudo-scientific bullshit..
<^>_<(ô ô)>_<^>
This is a digital control technology, in that its primary
purpose is to control how a device is used and can use
digital works. Although these technologies can be used
for copyright enforcement, their control extends far
beyond that mandate.
-- Scott A Crosby
You asked for someone to set up a domain where everyone can catalog all the copy protected cds. i just registered the domain, and as soon as i can throw some perl together the site will be up.
and thanks ryanvm for the idea and the domain name.
cristiana
Only if compliant with Red Book...
...until Philips finds it more profitable to discard that rule.
Given that Philips is still making and selling CD players, it would very much be in their interest to see that their drives do not start barfing on CD's claiming to be authentic Compact Discs. I don't see these "pre-scratched" discs bearing Philips' CD logo for long.
Dyolf Knip
If CDs were copy protected, would most people rip them by attaching their CD players to sound cards? Probably not. And not because of the quality, but because of the effort required. Consider this:
Ripping a CD to MP3s involves: (a) fetching track names automatically from freedb, (b) reading the audio off the CD (much faster than playing it) into separate files and (c) making MP3/ogg files.
Ripping a recording from line in involves (a) recording the whole damned thing at real time, (b) cutting it into separate tracks (no track info, remember), (c) hand-naming the files and making playlists. Takes a lot longer and requires more effort. I've done it once for a live recording from a MiniDisc, and it's not something I'd want to do for every CD I wish to listen to on my computer.
Of course, the payoff for going to this Herculean effort would be the kudos you get from all the mp3 l33ch3z when you upload it for the taking. So, in effect, copy-protected CDs would punish honest home-rippers and encourage file-sharing mp3 d00dz.
It's just too convenient - every Mac shipped comes with iTunes, which takes 1 click or less to MP3 a CD. Apple's sold a lot of iMacs and iBooks to Joe Public. Most of the consumer-oriented PCs ship with similar software installed, too. This is decidely not limited to geeks...