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Loki's Draeker On WineX, Transgaming And More
pseen wrote to us with a conversation with Scott Draeker (of Loki Games concerning the recent Transgaming and Wine announcements, as well as the Mandrake Linux Gamer announcements.
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Don't charge for this stuff no one is going to pay. =\
is there something like a WineX lib of sorts which lets you port windows programs using DirectX to a native linux app? could loki use this/
Photos.
Yeah I think this is a good idea 01S
The division between work and play is simple: if I have a Ferrari and an '85 Volvo Wagon, I drive one when I want to do something fun and the other when I need to get from point A to point B. I'm not taking the Ferrari out of the garage anytime soon.
Why waste time attempting "transgaming" when most gaming takes place on Windows boxes that people pick up at Best Buy for $599 minus MSN rebates that they're always hawking?
problem solved.
easy as pie.
Is that it's using Wine. Maybe I'm behind the times or biased, but Wine has been around for a long time now and still can't even be used to run already-installed business applications like MS Word, much less the Word installer, much less still DirectX games, much less even that that installers for DirectX games...
The one important commercial product released so far using Wine is Corel WordPerfect Office 2000 for Linux, which was such a dismal failure that many users who paid hundreds in cash for it ended up buying the windows version in addition anyway to run under VMWare or Win4Lin.
Wine simply has not proven itself a viable project. Don't get me wrong -- I'm not complaining about the Wine developers at all. I'm just wondering whether it's really possible (both legally and technically) to get a working, current implementation of the Windows and DirectX APIs on Linux.
This question is, of course, in addition to the significant question of performance, not even addressed in this post...
STOP . AMERICA . NOW
Hey if this works, when ff10 comes out for the pc in 3 years i bet somebody could get it to run under wine then someone could hack it to run under linux on a ps2!
Then you could play ff10 on a playstation 2!!
aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah duh, i be a opun sorz weetord.
He's only half right.
Sure, Loki's got the right idea, but it's better than booting over into windows if you are a hardcore linux junkie. Transgaming has the potential to be just like booting over to windows, without the whole booting over nonsense.
The problem is that most people who are hardcore linux junkies are also used to running multiple partitions for other reasons, which is why Loki's having problems.
Gentoo Sucks
There is already a buttload of discussion on this topic here at LinuxGames. Lots of what y'all are going to post here has probably already been said. :^)
Loki had their chance.
They cannot do what needs to be done.
What we need is games in linux, They dont have to be native games.
I subcribed to transgaming, We are voting for them to mostly port old games, leaving the newer games to loki
Loki will still have a job, Loki can port directX 9 based games, while WineX works with all the old games.
The dicussions from the voting subcribers have said that most of them want old game support more than the new stuff.
Loki is just being a typical company here, trying to have all the money to themselves.
If you use Linux, please help development of Autopac
People buy what they want or need.
They dont pay for what they dont want or need.
IF people want games, people will pay.
IF people dont want games, people wont pay.
Its really that simple. you want games? Subscribe to transgaming. Otherwise you dont have games and its only your fault.
If you use Linux, please help development of Autopac
Simple, to get windows users to migrate to linux, giving linux more support with hardware such as drivers, and software.
This is a GOOD thing.
Windows users want games, they dont care if the games are native or not, they just want to play their OLD games in Linux.
The new games can be native but the old games are what transgaming should be porting.
If you use Linux, please help development of Autopac
The way I see it developers try to make money on games. Fast and easy API's are needed. Sure ther's OpenGL - better than DX some say - but it's just graphics. There's no wrapping. No joystick-, force feedback- or sound support and a set of Linux code will only compile on a Linux machine.
All effors Mandrake, Transgaming, Wine developers and others are putting down in emulators, ports a.s.o. should be redirected to make an atractive API for both Linux and Windows. A top-top-level api. In bottom you could put OpenGL or DX depending on personal flavour or platform. One compile for each platform. There would be only one company maintaining the libraries. Game producers could then focus on an easy top level api and make whatever game run on any supported OS.
I belive that joining effords in creating such a cross-platform api would ease up developers relationship to Linux as a gaming-platform. It can handle it.
Look a monkey!
Loki does not realize that they cant sell games to people who already own the windows version.
Now, given the chance to buy the windows version and the linux version, most people will choose the linux version. But if theres only a windows version and now it works in transgaming, these people most likely werent going to buy the linux version if it DID come out, they most likely have been booting into windows.
If you use Linux, please help development of Autopac
like the title says :)
The quickest way to become an atheist is to study the Bible thoroughly.
Theres not alot of people voting, maybe only a few hundred.
I signed up on the first day too, because i wanted gaming, but i'm wondering how big the market actually is.
You have most likely seen me vote under LucianSK.
If you use Linux, please help development of Autopac
do we want a watered down linux that everyone uses, or the linux we already have? Look... I'm not a linux elitest who says only "smart people should use linux" but I don't know how much I like the idea of running windows games on linux. I have alot of respect for what the wine people have done considering how gnarly the win32 api is (i've worked with it... ick), however thats the problem. Linux is relativly clean and well built, so why do we want to incorporate horribly written apis and code into our base? Alot of microsoft games don't even work right on microsoft computers with all the hidden hooks in win32, why would we assume that they'll work on linux? Another issue is the fact that sircam was demonstrated to run on wine, are we going to compromise security to play a few windows games? I'm on Draeker's side, if you want windows games then damnit, use windows. Of course there's always the "lets see if we can do it" argument which is a pretty good one, otherwise linux never even would of been here... but lets keep it at that. Now if they want to write some entertainement apps, why don't they write a quality dvd app (yes i know about the css licensing fees) because livid sucks or write some true linux games. As for me, if I get my hands on a windows computer game... I plan to use it in windows which is about the only thing I do in windows (except dvd). Its too much hassle to go figiting around with wine (I couldn't even imagine how random wine is right now with what works and not incorporating directx... i shudder at the thought).
ps - Also if we keep a model of copying microsoft we'll find outselves always playing catch-up. For instance I got my hands on windows xp and was playing with wine and found that wine has no problem with win 2k advanced server or win me but seg faults on notepad.exe that comes with win xp. I know xp is officially supported however xp has a compatibility layer thing that allows programs to run as if they were win95 or winnt or win2k (its actually pretty cool). But it just makes me wonder just how much did microsoft break in releasing xp?
can't sleep slashdot will eat me
Transgaming expands the market.
First they have a new business model, which if proven possible, will finally prove you can make money on open source.
Second they port games windows users already have, which makes windows users have no excuse not to use linux, making the market grow
If you use Linux, please help development of Autopac
Yeah it can almost run alot of apps.
But guess what? Close only counts in hors...
Wine is typical of many open source projects, they get 3/4 of the way and fall appart. Unforutnately, there are many more Mozillas and Wines than Apache or Sambas out there.
Perhaps it's time for a change of strategy?
What about old games which will never be ported?
Think about the present alittle bit.
If you use Linux, please help development of Autopac
Does he understand that the Linux community is rather tight knit, and that anything that can be done to increase the number of Linux users is a good thing? I mean, if he wants to be in business, he is going to have to realize that sometimes competetion is good.
After all, 90% of 24,000 is less than 25% of 100,000.
(these figures randomly generated by me)
You tell them if they want games use windows.
99 percent of computer users want games, email, surfing the web.
Linux cant do games? Windows CAN? So they all use windows.
If you use Linux, please help development of Autopac
"Why use Linux? It cant play any of my games!!!"
"I've spent thousands of dollars on this state of the art computer to play games on it, Linux cant do that?"
Sure Linux is secure
"Why cant it play my games????????"
Its stable
"But it cant play my games!!!!!"
Now lets look at what Loki says.
Loki:"Well if you want games, you either buy the games you already own on windows again and from us, or you can use windows"
If you use Linux, please help development of Autopac
And that is the problem with WineX. That is why developers do not use Java to develop games. [Please don't turn this into a C++/Java flame war] But the fact of the matter is, whenever you put another layer between the hardware and end user software you incur an overhead.
This isn't a problem with *most* applications. However, for games to run at 60 fps, you need to render a frame every 16ms or so. With this kind of constraint you do not want to be farting around with a VM.
There are alternatives to this. The problem right now is the fact that a lot of developers use Direct3D rather than OpenGL to develop games. You could argue about what API you like better, but both APIs are functionaly complete [minus the time it takes for extensions to be approved when new hardware comes out]. Therefore, using a Turing machine argument, applications that are developed using Direct3D can be developed using OpenGL, and vice versa.
But why do developers use Direct3D? Because cross-platform operability is not a big concern. It's a catch-22 situation. Developers do not develop games for Linux because nobody buys them. Noboby buys games for Linux because there are no games developed for Linux.
Now, Quake 3 was an exception to the above argument. It was released for Linux...but nobody bought it strictly to play on Linux. And developers still don't have any confidence about releasing games for Linux.
My advice, when Doom3 is released a year and a half down the road. Buy it. Play it. Play it on Linux. That is the only way to convince developers that Linux is a viable platform.
SL
Your post doesn't make much sense... but linux can do games, just needs alittle fighting to get it done. The thing is people don't want to fight so with windows ease to use and the number of games already out... gamers may as well stick to windows. And i'm not talking about "everyone" i would like to make clear. I'm talking about linux users. If you are a linux user and want to play windows games, I would recommend you use to windows for those games. I know its a pain in the ass but it'll probably be quicker than reconfiguring wine.
can't sleep slashdot will eat me
They only started taking subscriptions for a week.
They didnt start advertising.
They DO make money off of mandrake, and people who subscribe pay diffrent amounts, some pay $10, or $20 a month for more votes.
400 subscribers in a week, thats damn good.
Transgaming WILL definately fail if the market size doesnt increase, But I see Linux becoming more mainstream, Lindows for example should bring more windows people over, And Linux mandrake and KDE 3.0 should bring more windows users over to use Linux as a desktop.
Linux has a future, Transgaming well get serveral thousand subscribers this year but, the real goal is to expand the market.
Transgaming makes money by licensing their code, by subscribers, by partnerships, Lindows will most likely need transgaming code as well as anyone else with a Desktop Linux distro.
Transgaming is definately making more money than code weavers and code weavers is still around, Transgaming will also make more money than Loki and Loki's been around for a while.
Have some faith, give them some time.
IF they still have 400 subscribers in jan 2002, then you should worry.
The market however is growing, and as it grows, the gaming market grows, because desktop users are usually gamers.
If you use Linux, please help development of Autopac
The article is Scott's response of "They suck, we're better" to TransGaming's statement of "They suck, we're better". This isn't a one-sided thing.
> Last I heard it could almost run office 2000
I have less ambitious goals. It can "almost" run the bridge builder game (bridgebuilder-game.com).. It installs and loads flawlessly, but then when the actual game starts the mouse pointer starts jerking around and I barely can move it because of an unimplemented directx function.
The problem has been known for quite some time, yet no fix has been done. I was going to work on this but then I could "almost" compile wine from CVS. So I've given up on this for a while.
Wine has always been teasing me, but the only succes I had was some primitive midi program for Windows 3.1 and some very small games.
Ok, suppose I want to run Linux software and Windows software? Is that outside the realm of possibility? In that case I have two choices, Wine and Cygwin.
You see, with no games in linux, and Loki and Linux people telling them keep using Windows.
What will they do?
Well, They will keep using windows.
If you use Linux, please help development of Autopac
You do not make any sense.
"do we want a watered down linux that everyone uses, or the linux we already have?"
The linux we have is harder to use then Windows. If it was easier to use more people would use it.
"but linux can do games, just needs alittle fighting to get it done."
If linux were easier to use and hence used by more people there would be a bigger market for games in linux. To get more commercial support linux needs more users. To get more users it needs to be easier to use.
Alot of linux users seem illogically think making it easier to use would take away its power. The problem with linux is the ideas its users and sotware developers hold in their heads. Alot of their ideas are an anathema to the success of linux.
Most people if forced to choose Linux or Windows software, Will choose windows software.
What we need to do, is not force them to choose anymore, Just give them both and let them choose from inside Linux.
If you use Linux, please help development of Autopac
Which is why we should support transgaming.
Transgaming may go bankrupt but all their games will work and their code will still be there.
Loki goes bankrupt, and its like they never exsisted.
And you say let them keep using windows? Well thats not what I want, i want linux to increase marketshare. So does transgaming and its subscribers, so we get better hardware support and real developers start porting games.
If you use Linux, please help development of Autopac
Loki should recognize that TransGaming is actually helping them.
Where I live, there are a few streets that are absolutely infested with computer stores. If they were thinking like Loki here, this never would have happened. But storeowners realized that, far from stealing each other's business, they enhance each other's business. People know that if they want computer equipment, they should go to that street, and everyone benefits from that.
Now let's say WineX helps Linux become a popular gaming platform. Most of my games work well enough that I don't use a Windows partition anymore. Now, when I go to the store, am I going to buy Unreal 2 for Windows, or Unreal 2 for Linux?
Seems pretty obvious I'll get the one that's designed and optimized for Linux, rather than the one that will "probably work". Note also that TransGaming isn't focusing on games that Loki has ported.
Of course, if there's no Linux version available yet, I'll have to think more carefully about whether I wait for a port, or get the Windows version. I guess ports can't be an afterthought if WineX succeeds.
What I wonder, though, is whether TransGaming's working on a clone of the X box. If it takes off, WineX could win big there.
I think linux is easy enough... if someone wants to make linux into windows go ahead, but keep it out of the main kernel releases so the rest of us have a choice. I personally don't care how many people use linux, its not that big of a deal. As for you quote on making linux easier not taking away from its power thats just absurb. The programs that make it easier (linuxconf or mandrakes installer for example) mess up stuff all the time. Most due because the application assumes too much power over your system, including stuff that only you should do. The other thing is more of a social thing... linux is not ready for wide spread use. Currently there are thousands of brilliant developers working on it and it should continue as such. Can you say that about windows in the same lite? Not exactly in dealing with percentages. It is a proven fact that for the most part linux has a more computer educated based than windows. The progress being made in linux right now is due to that base. The average linux user knows how to run a server and write programs. I would say that at least 80% of windows users can't do that. And that is a reason to not dumbing down linux on top of the pootching those programs due to config files.
can't sleep slashdot will eat me
Transgaming has nothing to do with hardware support. Linux will never emulate drivers... as those are part of the kernel. If a game works on windows because windows has the display adapter device driver and linux doesn't then it won't work on linux no matter what you do. Transgaming is currently not opensource either... they are some mutant form which is their decision and i respect that. But if they do not get their $100,000 a month then they will not release their code into the wine project and will not become true open source and i don't see them getting $5 a month from 20,000 people anytime soon. As for loki, well they have a bad business model anyway but i still think theirs is a more logical one for linux. Linux needs linux apps, not ripped off half working windows ones. Example, can I ask you if you have ever used wine? If so then you know how it works and how transgaming is in for a hell of alot of work. If not i suggest you get a copy of it and try running some win programs. I still think loki has a better chance since if they write their apps in opengl its a matter of alittle changes and a recompile to port it to making a working game.
can't sleep slashdot will eat me
Do I detect a hint of sour grapes in this W(h)ine? :)
Editor Emeritus and Senior Writer, TeleRead.org
But they are having a tough time. They need to find a way to port more popular games, and get them released for linux closer to the windows release. most people who dual boot can wait a little bit for their games, but wouldn't wait a year or even 6 months for them. There's no reason to criticize transgaming either. It remains to be seen what the quality of their games will be.
oh yeh, Wine Is Not an Emulator damit!
The latest version of wine runs some games very well. Most, not so well or at all. If transgaming can improve wine, all the power to them. But they say their source is available? not on transgaming.com. Must be on sourceforge?
It's too bad. I think loki products are the best, but they still had to file bankruptcy. Means something else is wrong. Maybe they should start making their own original games now that they have more than enough experience, if it truely is the exorbedant license fees that are killing them.
Bottom line is, I for one haven't used winderz in over 2 years. I won't use it for ANY game. But if I see a decent linux game I buy it. If there were more people like me, linux gaming would have a market.
Wine Is Not an Emulator. Say it with me. A Java VM IS an emulator. It emulates a fictional processor that Sun made up.
Wine is much more like a wrapper, and wrappers can be orders of magnitude faster than emulators. Wile it's true that a wrapper will introduce some overhead, it's not at all clear that the overhead must be significant.
First of all, the wrapper may have small overhead per call. Second, the wrapper may have large overhead per call, but there may not be a lot of calls-- the program may spend the majority of its time in the main program, or in the actual wrapped calls.
Look, I'm not some Wine fanatic. I know it's got a long way to go. But your argument makes a lot of assertions that I don't think you can prove.
Hardware makers will make drivers for linux given a REASON to do so.
People who buy hardware are gamers, if linux has gamers, then linux will have hardware support.
If you use Linux, please help development of Autopac
from dictionary.com
emulate (my-lt)
tr.v. emulated, emulating, emulates
1. To strive to equal or excel, especially through imitation: an older pupil
whose accomplishments and style I emulated.
2. To compete with successfully; approach or attain equality with.
3. Computer Science. To imitate the function of (another system), as by modifications to hardware or software that allow the imitating system to accept the same data, execute the same
programs, and achieve the same results as the imitated system.(emphasis mine)
Someone explain to me how wine does not fit definition #3?(I have nothing against WINE. I just don't see how it isn't an emulator.)
Got Freedom?
Thinking?
You hold a common notion around the linux community that what can be done with a command line can not be done with gui. This is false.
"The programs that make it easier (linuxconf or mandrakes installer for example) mess up stuff all the time."
Programs like that are not given the attention they need in the linux community to make them work as well as their counterparts in MacOS, Windows, etc. A gnu/linux system is an assembelage of lots of small parts. It is hard to make gui configs for all these small console based parts, especially when different linux distrubitions are made up of different console utilities. EX. Some distributions use lpr, others CUPS and yet others use both.
This is what makes it hard for people to make gui configuration programs under linux. It is not that it is impossible for gui to do such things as you suggest.
Another problem is that there are so many competing gui configuration progams. One developer will make a web based CUPS configuration, another will make a QT one, another yet a GTK one. What you have is developers catering to their prefered widget set and as a result a lot of gui programmers instead of consolidating and improving an existing program make their own in their own favorite widget. This fragmentation is part of the reason why linux gui config programs encounter problems. THey do not get enough developer time. Instead of 20 linux developers working together to make a gui config program for ncftp you get 20 developers making 5 different gui's for ncftp. If they consolidated maybe they could support all the features of ncftp instead of only choosing the ones they have time to implement. On linux gui programs are an afterthought. On programs, even ones that have console backends such as XMMS the gui is of great quality, precisely because the XMMS decided to make a gui for it, instead of leaving other developers to make 5 different guis in diff widgets, taht do not support all of XMMS' features.
The idea of making a bunch of small parts in the Unix world/free software world is stupid. They purport this will encourage reuse of existing software. This seems to encourage the making of 30 different window managers because X will not do that, they will leave it to others who will fragmentate instead of consolidate. This encourages 10 different frontends for BitchX, all of which do support all of BitCHX features. You will have dozens of different widget sets because X windows wants to be a small tool and let others encourage code reinvention, not reuse.
Someone explain to me how Linux does not fit the above definition #3. I mean it imitates the function of UNIX, so it must be an emulator, right?
I am truely happy that there will be more competition on the linux gaming market. More Games!! However, WINE isn't the fastest program, I think win4lin would be better....
forget it.
I'm not saying that those programs will never work, i'm saying that they currently do not. This has nothing to do with the command-line vs gui argument. And yes, anything you can do with the command-line you "should" be able to do in a gui enviroment if someone or yourself codes an application to do it. Ranting about gnome vs kde and x is besides the point, thats a different argument all together and has nothing to do with this topic. My point is that current apps pootch config files... and that these apps are aimed at making linux easier. The person who posted above me said that making linux easier does not make weaken it. This was my example that pootched config files does weaken linux... this being a result of making linux easier. Eventually it will be ok and everything will be straightened out... but as of right now I'm not all too worried about it.
can't sleep slashdot will eat me
How many people use your operating system, such as Gnu/linux does matter. Do not say it does matter for effect. Do not say it does not matter because other members of the Gnu/linux community said it so many times it started to make sense to you.
If linux had as few developers and users as AtheOS on the application level you would not have many applications to choose from. Fewer users correlates into fewer developers, less hardware support and less commercial software support. On linux you can not use a DVD encyclopedia like Compton's or Britannica. On linux you cannot use Eurotalk learn to speak Greek. No commercial software support is not good, despite what the free software fanatics say. The free software movement is not in the position to replace all commercial software, now, or a for a good time yet to come.
With a bigger market, They'll write their drivers themselves like they do for windows and mac!
If you use Linux, please help development of Autopac
I think what your missing is that that is my opinion based on my use of linux. Currently there is plenty of software out there that i like and use and am not all that worried about learning to speak another language (theres books for that such stuff). I like commerical software... ibm made a working dvd player which is nice, and i have no problem with that. Linux is already way more advanced than AtheOS or BeOS ever got in the application and user base and i'm not panicing about it becoming useless. An os and application can not go back in time and what linux has now is good and is getting better. Also, I would like to point out that i do not consider it GNU/linux, rms can call it what he wants but i call it linux (as does linus). I also do not touch debian even if its "leet" because it is old software. I prefere a modern distribution with a fresh kernel and new software. So lumping me as a GNU zealot is silly.
can't sleep slashdot will eat me
You talk of dumbing down linux. You talk of gui configs fucking with stuff the user should only fuck with. This sure sounds like you do not have much trust in gui configuration programs in general.
Perhaps you should say what you mean instead of exaggerating for effect, then leaving me to have to guess at what you actually mean.
They want money for what they "might" do. This isn't a product where if I want to play a windows-only game, I can buy it and make it work. They aren't even making any guarentees on what works and what doesn't. Games they have listed as "working" are still flaky at best.
I'd like nothing more then to play NHL 2002 on my linux system. A port is less then likely. So something like this is really my only option. But why wouldn't I suscribe? Pay $5/month to ask them to get a game working? There isn't even a guarentee that it will ever work.
Now, it would be worth money, if it could actually play all DirectX 8 games. If I could buy a game that uses DirectX, and know it's going to work. THAT'S something that's actually worth money.
Paying someone in advance for work they might do, and never even getting a guarentee that it's going to get done isn't something I do.
No i do not trust the programs right now... i said that in my original post if you read it. However i'm sure they'll come around eventually, even if i don't use them. Command-line is old... i don't use it unless i have to fix my system or do something that i don't trust the gui to handle. But don't get me wrong... i use the gui to its fullest extent including its config programs and such. I just stay away from gui programs that i can more easily do with the command-line.
can't sleep slashdot will eat me
What you seem to do is say emphatic phrases such as that for effect. It is disparagingly common. When you say "I personally don't care how many people use linux, its not that big of a deal. ", that is what I think you mean. It does matter how many people use whatever Operating System you use. It dictates how much driver support, and applications will be available
If all my hardware is supported and all my needs are already fullfilled by programs written or i can write then why do i need to worry about other people? I don't care what other people do. I don't see what your problem with this is, unless you are a troll. I'm using a windows machine right now, when i go home i'll be using linux. Thats the way the world works. I don't tell windows people to switch unless they ask. I don't tell linux people to use debian, because i don't either. I'm interesting in Open Source but i don't care all that much. All i know is that right now i have a stable os that does every i need it to do which makes me happy. If i'm happy with my os then i don't care who else uses it.
can't sleep slashdot will eat me
Linux didnt work right on my computer until recently, I HAD to use windows.
Now it works perfectly except for my cd burner.
Hardware support is a main reason why people dont use linux
If you use Linux, please help development of Autopac
You:"So lumping me as a GNU zealot is silly."
No where in did I lump you in with them. I try maintain some level of exactness in my language. I would have said "No commercial software support is not good, despite what the free software fanatics such as you say", instead of "No commercial software support is not good, despite what the free software fanatics say", if I wanted to lump you in with them.
I do not know why you replied you seem to have understood that you realized the importance of commercial software support and user support of an OS. My problem was you said that it does not matter to you how many people use linux. I replied with examples that would show why it would matter to you.
This whole mess can be avoided if you avoid emphatic phrases. Trying to constantly guess at what someone is trying to say may be appropriate for poetry but it makes conversation difficult.
Are you a programmer? If you arent, then you have to pay some programmers $5 (wow Cds cost more) to write the code for you.
This is a service, i bet you pay more in a day to travel! Breakfast costs more.
Breakfast may taste like shit, your bus may be late, hey, thats how service works, this is how capitalism works, this is how the world works.
You never know what you will get until its done.
Paying for services is alot better than paying for something you'll never own, like say windows98.
Would you rather pay in advance for a license to use something ? (windowsXP) or would you prefer to pay for a service which produces code which you OWN? (transgaming)?
If you use Linux, please help development of Autopac
The games which cant work, They dont even list.
They list games which they think they can make work, which they have tested.
I'm subcribed, every game listed has been tested and will work, but some bug, or small peice is mising keeping it from working.
Transgaming does testing, then has you vote on the games you want to work.
If you use Linux, please help development of Autopac
That's the anthem, get your damn hands up.
I think this is a huge step forward. Many people that are tired of windows tell me they now want to try Linux.
I myself subscribed to WineX and everything is working GREAT. I know several friends who also are interested in either the Mandrake Gaming edition or the WineX subscribtion. I'm pretty sure Transgaming are gonna make money pretty soon.
And for Loki it doesn't have to mean bad times. When interest for Linux gaming is greater they'll get deals to port games to a native environment.
Ciryon
Ok I tried compiling this stuff on mandrake 8.1 and it kept barfing on me. Anyone know where the packages can be downloaded from?
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I just grabbed an rpm of winex and without reading any instructions or anything I installed it and was running Age of Empires, Rise of Rome with no problems. I need to go in and configure my drive letters at some point but that's not a big deal. And this was from an install on my windows partition. Just for kicks I just did cd /mnt/win_d/aoe/ror and then winex empiresx.exe and it just worked beautifully.
Also, it ran Forte's Agent, the only decent newreader I've ever seen, faster than the wine cvs version I was using.
Age of Kings: The Conquerors did not run though. I suspect I need to fix my drive letters and then do a re-install of the app. Not a big deal.
Can't wait to see if it can run Paintshop or Photoshop.
The first month is free when you subscribe for an indefinate amount of time.
I subscribed for 3 months.
Transgaming has 3 months to come up with a useful product.
When you subscribe with an indefinate account, they require you subscribe for at least 3 months anyhow.
So the first month free thing is really just marketing.
Like AOLs 500 free hours knowing theres not even 1000 huors in a month and knowing you are hooked into a contract for 2 years so whats a month.
If you use Linux, please help development of Autopac
I totally agree that it has a long way to come. When will battle.net work in starcraft??! ;-)
:-)
But it certainly isn't slow. As many people have said, Wine Is Not an Emulator. It goes almost as fast as native windows.
Back in the day, when I used to play counterstrike (before I discovered UrbanTerror for quake3) I ran it in wine. It took a little fscking around to make it work (which I don't mind) - but when it did it went nicely. Either in a window on my kde2 desktop, or fullscreen. I got about 40-50 fps on my celery 700 & TNT2 M64. Ditto goes for half-life single player. And perfectly stable too.
Oh, and I do seem to recall seeing MSWord (97?) running in wine... of course I'm not about to buy it and install it to find out - openoffice works just fine for me. But does anyone know anything about that?
Oh yeah, and the install proggy that I've seen most windows stuff use, InstallShield(tm) works just fine in wine.
So don't knock it 'till you've tried it. That said, I much prefer to buy native linux games from loki, given the choice. Hell, wouldn't you??
I wonder what loki are getting so worried for...
If you want a good dvd player application for linux, then try out Ogle, it's easy to install and it works great. The website for Ogle is http://www.dtek.chalmers.se/groups/dvd/
I'd be really curious to see something running in WINE versus the "In-Windows" running difference...
I guess it's how much api calls are made, but that could be interresting for porting some stuff (especially rendering like Lightwave or MAX or truespace) over linux, build cheap renderfarms and not having to pay a 33% microsoft tax over each system for the OS to run over EACH node.
--- Metamoderating abusive downgraders since my 300th post.
killall -KILL wine
killall -KILL wine
killall -KILL wine
killall -KILL wine
killall -KILL wine
killall -KILL wine
killall -KILL wine
killall -KILL wine
killall -KILL wine
Everyone wait and see, soon there will be virii that remove WINE's posix compliance to the point of it not responding to kill signals!
But I'm sure you already Gnu that.
No shit, they are trying to get 200 posts on a linuxgames forum. Help 'em do it!
But I'm sure you already Gnu that.
It doesn't matter that the games will be windows native. It's still non-free with a linux native binary, and it doesn't provide any real value either way.
I say good on Transgaming for taking the initiative, a common binary (neccessary evil) format could also provide value for mac users.
POKE 36879,8
Ok, so we talk about the philosophy and the this_product v. that_product side of things. But what i'm interested in is this: Transgaming's WineX seems to be trying to be able to accept all of the calls from a win32 game. As it gets better and better, accepting more and more calls, shouldn't it snowball..so that eventually it will properly accept them all/most? Is WineX customizing it's processing to the particular game? Shouldn't things get a lot better as we go along?
Who is this Anonymous Coward character, how does he post so much, and why is he always such a whore?
i agree
The problem i have with linux lies in the exact same area - the mistaken impression that GUI tools in Windows dont work properly is a myth and belies the fact that i can tell a user over the phone to open this window, click on that icon, type that box and click ok - try that under many linux installs - open a terminal, now type... no no its... you hit enter ? ok lets try again.
The issue is that i think linux kernel and applicaiton developers should wire their testicles to a 240v power supply. Every time they need a console, a make file or a configure command to install a simple piece of software they get a shock - simple and i can bet that pretty soon we would actually have installers that work properly every time.(although there is always the danger that some of the developers might enjoy the electric shocks !)
I love linux and would love to see it a useable system for all but at the moment the only people who are using it fully are tecnhincally competent, their is a HUGE difference between them and the average joe schmoe at home.
Linux games are a case in point, i have installed many games and then discopvered after downloading, configuring, makefileing and such like that it needs this library or that etc etc (and the next person who says read the documentation gets a punch in the nose - have you SEEN what linux developers call documnentation and manuals ? )
The average user wants to pop in a cd, run the setup, have it install the files and then play the game / use the app - Period. They dont give a fuck about anything else and the windows direct x installation is as simple and easy to do as falling off a log - we need to stop arguing about crap like whats the best emulator and get out there and make a viable alternative OS for every man that is easy to use and add software to
I refuse to argue with Anonymous Cowards - if you want a discussion get an account....
I like linux a lot and have followed it for about 3.5 years(or whenever Redhat 5.2 came out). I've also been trying to get into programming in my free time, focusing mainly on games and graphics(bought all the applicable best sellers). I wanted to someday program games for Linux, but games take a lot to do, and the industry is pretty competitive to get into, I hear. I would love to see linux get _completely_ up to speed in the driver and game support markets, like it's beginning to in the office suite area. Anyone think I could convince game companies to contract me out--cheap--to do their linux port for them, so they dont have to free up necessary developers for it? I'd do it for free if I had time outside of that to hold a regular job. Or would they likely shy from that idea, to protect their intellectual property? I think that open source programmers could do a lot by offering up their services to these companies. They'd probably just have to sign into a lot of legal stuff, to prevent closed source piracy. Insert criticism here.
I'm determined to reclaim my karma. Now, if I can only find a groundbreaking article and something witty to say....
People will not stop dueling booting why? The last time I check it was from the lack of games/apps that ran under Linux that user need/bind to. Id Software and Loki were the only ones I seen really push Linux as a gaming platform from the start. Now using WineX is that a bad thing? It's all in the way you look at it. There are things I think about like MS trying to change up the API but they can't do that without breaking all the older versions of DirectX. Or one of the main things I think about is seeing Linux basic games in the future being nothing more then WineX games or Wine compliable games. Now think about now many Linux users will go for that in the long run? But lets not look at the bad side of things let's start thinking about the good things WineX could do...
1. If game developers see that they can port there game over to Linux using WineX with a simple recompile and some tweaks then they'll do it. Maybe if the company has good sales they will put more time into making the game native.
2. They could write most of the code native and mix with it some if the Windows/WineLib APIs.
3. Developers could use the Winelib then over time make the game truly native.
That's just want I thinking, I don't know what the future holds for both TG and Loki but only time will tell. I'm not going to sit there and say that Linux gaming is doomed before we know it.
From Zero to Hero... Starbuck Zero
I get about 2500 3dmarks in 3dmark 2000.
We cant run 3dmark 2001 yet because it needs directx8 - which isn't implemented yet.
2500 isn't a bad score on my 1.2Ghz Athlon with 512MB of RAM and Geforce2MX. It isn't quite what I get in Windows, but it isn't bad either. Everything runs smoothly it just doesn't seem to spike as high (as in the FPS never go above about 50-60 when in windows they would spike all the way up to 150 or so, but at the same time they never drop below like 20 even on the hardcore stuff.).
Derek
There's the Slackware approach - linux for unix users (compile most new stuff after the initial install), and the RedHat approach - linux for win* users (install new apps as binary packages). Once you've got the thing installed and added in a few things it gradually becomes linux for yourself - although hardly anyone compiles a kernel for their own hardware anymore (note to new users, you already have the device drivers that you are looking for - they are in the kernel source - but they do need to be set up)
Wine is a library. Things that depend upon it (or a variant) will depend on it, and things that don't won't. It won't be a problem unless someone does something brain dead like make gnome dependant upon it.
Well written native apps will run faster and more reliably than non-native binaries talking to a reinplemetation of their native API, if only because there will be better ways to do it on the native platform.
When I first heard about this I thought "great, now my girlfriend can run all that cheap and nasty house design and lifestyle software she got that won't run on 98,ME,Win2k or wine." From what I've read the major "feature" is that it gives an incorrect answer when asked what version of OS is running - it won't stop calls to things that are no longer there, and there may be very strange results (and the program may have to be run with full permissions to everything). At least that will teach a few people the importance of backups.They make it easy to install games.
If you use Linux, please help development of Autopac
When milllions of people go from windows users to linux users, then it will make plenty of sense to offer native games in linux.
If you use Linux, please help development of Autopac
I hate to say this, as most /. readers seem to be so into linux, but what the hell is so hard about the windows api? Platform sdk... read... understand... done. One fucking day is all it takes - it's an OS not dna or 'the brain.
An IRC client may well have a print system with drivers for 200 different printers and a web browser, but the typical *nix app would pipe those tasks off to something else that was written specificly to do that job.
The CDE didn't take off for a few reasons, one of which is that not everyone is looking for exactly the same thing. There seems to be two views: Most people don't realise that standards are not there solely to make people conform, but to lay down minimum (and sometimes maximum) requirements. Some things are standardised, some things pretend to be, and some things probably should never be standardised.We will have WineX customized for specific games.
We will basically have an OS created for a specific game or group of them.
Like Linux Mandrake Blizzard Edition for Blizzard game fans.
If you use Linux, please help development of Autopac
Personally, the only time I've ever had to use more than a really simple GUI to install a Loki game was when the CD was about a year old (written for kernel 2.2.*). All I had to do was download the new installer from the Loki site, and it worked perfectly in a GUI once I ran that. I was also surprised to find that features are still being added to Myth 2, well over a year after release (full screen openGL with full hardware aceleration on any cards that XFree86 likes!).
What is so difficult about the fact that Linux is better than Windows because it is different. Of course this means that it is better in certain tasks, and worse in some.
If things end up in a situation where we have a complete Windows UI and API sitting on top of Linux, you might just as well run the real thing.
Escher was the first MC and Giger invented the HR department.
That would be true, IF:
I evangelised to my co-workers and managers at Maxis about how I thought Loki would be the ideal company to port The Sims to Linux. Since there really isn't much demand for a Linux port, I proposed doing a Mac port in a way that would facilitate them both. Before The Sims was ever released, I wrote and sent a proposal around Maxis, outlining how to port The Sims to the Mac and Linux, using SDL and Open GL.
I met Scott Draeker at the Game Developers conference on March 7 2000, about a month after The Sims shipped on Feb 4. I suggested that Loki port The Sims to Linux, because I was optimistic that it was going to be a popular game. He didn't seem to think so, and brushed me off, with a "go away kid, you're bothering me" attitude.
But I gave Scott Draeker the benefit of the doubt, that he was just tired after a long day in the trade show booth, and not really as curt and indifferent to the idea as he seemed.
Once The Sims shipped, I left my full time job at Maxis to work on some of my own projects, but I kept working on The Sims for Maxis as a contractor. I worked on content creation tools, developed Transmogrifier and other stuff. I still have legitimate access to The Sims source code, and I keep Will Wright up to date on what I'm doing.
As a proof of concept, I started porting The Sims to Linux on my own time. I hoped to overcome the skepticism of some people at Maxis, as well as Scott Draeker at Loki, by demonstrating that it was indeed possible, and experimenting to find the best approach empirically.
My goal was to find the best approach to getting The Sims to run on Linux. Not just to use one particular technology or another. The end result is what matters most, not the way it's implemented.
Thanks to the encouragement of John Gilmore, I certainly did consider using Wine, but at the time it was nowhere near sufficient. (But since then, Transgaming has made astounding progress with Wine, and it's now obviously quite sufficient, to my delight.)
So I used SDL to do a native port of The Sims to Linux, and got most of the game running quite well, except for drawing the people and roofs (which would require hacking a system memory back end to Mesa), and sound (which would require using OpenAL, with which I hoped Loki would have been able to help me).
I was actually quite surprised at how quickly I was able to get a native port of The Sims running on Linux. My previous experience porting SimCity to Unix took a lot more time. But the tools are much better and computers are way faster now. And of course I was more familiar with the code base.
I offered the results of my work to Loki on reasonable terms. They didn't seem interested. I talked to some people at Maxis about it, and they said that Loki had been discussing it with Maxis, but they hadn't heard back from them in a long time.
I finally got some brusque uninformative email from Scott Draeker, and we talked briefly on the phone, but he said that he was really busy, he had a lot of paperwork in progress that had to be finish, and he'd get back to me some time. So I stopped working on the port, and waited to hear back from him...
I considered approaching other Linux game companies about porting The Sims to Linux, but decided to wait, because I still believed Loki was the best company to do it, and I did not want to undercut their ongoing negotiations with Maxis. Just the opposite -- I encouraged Maxis to quickly reach a fair deal with Loki, because I believed we could work together to get it to market fast. But Maxis wasn't the only company dragging their feet.
Months later, I finally read on the net that Loki had decided not to port The Sims to Linux, because "Maxis wanted too much money". By that time, The Sims had been topping the charts for months, so of course Maxis was asking a lot for it.
What I didn't know at the time, was that Loki was soon to declare Chapter 11. So it was actually a combination of Maxis wanting a lot for it, and Loki not having any money. But of course Draeker didn't mention that fact at the time.
But fortunately, my time and effort porting The Sims to Linux was not wasted, because Maxis needed The Sims to run on Linux, as the multi-player game server for The Sims Online.
So I used the original port at a guide, and more cleanly ported and optimized the newer Sims Online code to Linux again, making a headless build without all the graphics (removing SDL and DirectX). But the Linux build of the code is for Maxis's internal use on their servers, not as a commercial product for Linux.
I made the same code base compile on both Windows and Linux, and both with or without graphic. The SDL graphics code still works on Linux, but it's only used for diagnostic and debugging purposes, and not for production.
It's nice to run the graphical build of the Linux server in order to see what the server's doing during development. But the production server can't require a connection to an X server, and doesn't read in any graphics, because many must run on the same machine in parallel.
Even though Loki blew their chance to port The Sims to Linux, I still wanted to see it happen anyway. But because so much time had passed since the release of The Sims, I would rather put my efforts into finishing porting The Sims Online client to Linux, and work with some other company than Loki.
But I discussed it with Will Wright, and he explained to me in his reasonable, thoughtful, well considered manner: a native port of The Sims Online client to Linux would not be practical as a commercial product, because of its nature as a dynamically updated online game.
The way The Sims Online and many other online games work, is that the server and the clients all run the same deterministic simulation in lock step, funneling any user requested changes through a central "headless" server, so the actions can be scheduled to happen at the same time in all parallel universes.
So the server simulation and protocol must be *EXACTLY* the same as the clients, or all hell will break loose. Any online game, no matter what the architecture, requires that the client and the servers be in sync. That's not so hard if the game is trivial like Othello or Quake, but The Sims network protocol is much more complex and quite sensitive to incompatibilities.
So there is absolutely no way to support any more than one client executable, because the clients and servers must be updated together in real time by downloading patches, just like Ultima Online and other games.
In order for there to be a Linux port (or a Mac port), it would necessarily have to be done in-house at Maxis, built off of the same code tree, developed in parallel.
It is simply not possible for a third party developer like Loki to stay in sync with the ongoing development at Maxis of The Sims Online. That would require enormous overhead and resources on the part of Maxis, all for an extremely negative return on investment: it would extremely complicate and slow down the development process, require extra programmers, quality assurance people with Linux skills, etc.
Cross platform development requires a LOT of overhead -- please believe me if you haven't tried it. The gross income from selling Linux clients would be infintesimal, and would never outweigh the enormous cost of development. There is absolutely no way EA would ever allow Maxis to flush their stock holders' money down the toilet like that.
That is the harsh, real, undenyable reason that Wine is the most practical and economical way to run games on Linux.
I am quite pleased that Transgaming has developed Wine so far that it can now actually run The Sims! What's wrong with one Linux company coming up with a free and practical implementation of a great idea, that puts another Linux company out of business? Think of it as evolution in action, to quote somebody whose name doesn't deserve mentioning.
The way Transgaming has improved Wine is so generally beneficial, that running The Sims Online on Linux the very day it's release on Windows, is now practically in the bag! With Loki's pace and approach, there was never any hope of that.
The thing that matters most is the fact that a game DOES run on Linux, not HOW it's implemented. Real People in the Real World don't care about religious issues like if it's running under Wine or if it's a native port. It takes over the whole screen anyway, so what does it matter? The end experience is the same.
Thanks to the generality of Wine, now there exists a whole spectrum of solutions, from binary emulation, to recompilation, all the way to native porting. Wine could be an extremely useful tool in the process of doing a fully native port.
Those irrational people who reject Wine for purely political reasons, are doing much more damage to Linux than Wine will ever do. They're trying to argue that trivial invisible implementation details matter so much to users, that they would reject Linux if their favorite games weren't native ports, even if they ran under Wine. That's totally ridiculous.
The fact that a game runs on Linux at all, is MUCH more important than whether or not it's a native port.
Another advantage to Transgaming's Wine approach, is that all the existing free external tools like Transmogrifier, SimShow, Facelift, Art Studio, Home Crafer, Menu Edit, File Cop, and the many third party tools, will all probably run under Wine. And if they don't, Transgaming considers it a bug in Wine, and wants to fix it. Most of those tools will never be ported native to Linux, so the only way to use them is though Wine.
I just can't believe that people would attack Transgaming for all that they've done and given back to the community. The alternative is for Linux to simply hold its breath and go without most games.
The consequences of that alternative are dreadful, and much more harmful to Linux than the imaginary consequences of Wine. Now that Wine has been improved enough to run games like The Sims, it has so many other wonderful uses as well. Why would you ever consider sacrificing all that?
It's not worth attacking Wine out of political correctness, in order to wait around forever for native ports that will never happen. Please don't cut off your nose to spite your face.
-Don
Take a look and feel free: http://www.PieMenu.com
Summer before senior year I upgraded it to a 166MMX, 96 MB of RAM and a RIVA 128ZX. Cost, about 400.
Near the end of senior year I got a great credit card that enabled me to get my second PC, a PIII-600/128 Dell system. I now had two. The fastest one was my gaming machine. The slower one, my Linux box.
I don't use Linux at home. HERESY!
I have a single computer at home, a Win98 box. It is my gaming rig. The office itself has no "power gaming rig" so to speak other than that P4 I have with a TNT2 video card in it. the 16 meg NVidia came standard on the new Dell.
My home rig is what I would consider "standard." Linux will never become the standard on the desktop until Compaq starts bundling it with their horrible low-end machines.
'Til then...nothing we do to improve the desktop will make a difference.
And YES, I know that WINE Is Not an Emulator. But you're splitting hairs...let's call it a kludge. Happy? I'm not one to kludge my games into running on a Linux box at work. But the Linux box at work is the 166/96 MB RAM workhorse...oh well. Guess I'll get back to playing NetHack on it.
He says his customers demand more than Windows software can offer, but how can he deliver that if Loki is only porting games straight across, but not putting much effort into substantially redesigning them to take real advantage of Linux, or even developing a new games from the ground up, unlike anything that's ever been seen on Windows?
Native ports certainly benefit from the robust, efficient Linux virtual memory and file system, but so do games running under Wine.
Perhaps Loki should try putting more original creative development effort into the games they port, to really take substantial advantage of Linux features that you can't get through emulation.
When I ported SimCity Classic to Unix from 1991 to 1993, I took the time to rewrite all of the graphics code and user interface from scratch (twice: first in PostScript, then in TCL), and added unix-specific features to the game like scalable graphics using NeWS PostScript, and multi-player support using X11 networking.
Maybe Loki should change their approach, take some of their single player games, and really exploit Linux by turning them into networked multi player games, like I did with SimCity classic. Then they might have an argument against Transgaming's assertion that Wine makes their current approach to porting obsolete.
-Don
Take a look and feel free: http://www.PieMenu.com
If you're going to play fast an loose with the definition of "emulator", even though the name "WINE" means "Wine Is Not an Emulator", then you should accept that Wine is also an "accelerator", in the sense that it replaces the slow inefficient Windows file system, virtual memory and networking with Linux.
So let's just agree to call Wine an "accemulator".
Take a look and feel free: http://www.PieMenu.com
Well? Did you subscribe to transgaming?
I certainly hope so after such a speech.
If you use Linux, please help development of Autopac
Owch.
Take a look and feel free: http://www.PieMenu.com
WINE just replaces the lowlevel libraries by its own thin replacements which just translate the calls and forward them to the UNIX equivalents.
Btw, it helps if you start thinking of WINE not as some kind of emulator, but that it is just the set of Windows libraries, including libddraw and libdirect3d. All Code is run native and the libraries use all highspeed features available including hardware accelerated OpenGL for the emulation.
There is barely a speed loss for most of the timing critical stuff is implemented in the lowlevel X drivers, not in the wrapper libraries.
Ciao, Marcus
I did a very thorough investigation on the performance of Tribes 2 for Windows on Windows 2000 and Lokigames Tribes 2 for Linux on Red Hat Linux 7.2. The results were that the Linux version achieved a 17% higher frame rate on the same hardware in those places, where my GeForce 2MX wasn't the bottleneck. The CPU was an Amd Athlon 1.2GHz.
I think this is really amazing, and shows how good a job Lokigames does.
Because I don't want the slashdot effect on my 256kbps webserver, I will only send the report to those, who:
- Have an @slashdot.org e-mail address.
- Have made a post with at least 4 points.
Lars.
If run from an existing Windows installation (what's the point? just reboot!), the keyboard input is broken, any non in-game movies fail to go full-screen, and the mouse cursor is simply non-existant.
And, to add to it, the performance is impacted noticably. Granted, my machine is not particularly current (K6-2), but they're at least playable under Windows.
Funny thing is, they were all at the same approximate state of playability under straight WINE six months ago...
From the WINE faq:
An emulator is something that duplicates the environment that an application runs in.
Give that wine duplicates the win32 environment (the dlls) that a win32 application needs to run, WINE qualifies as an emulator according the very definition in their FAQ.
Dinivin
A smart Linux distributor with an eye towards the consumer desktop market would try to leverage Wine as an API migration path from Windows to Linux. It can be much like Carbon's role in MacOS X.
MacOS developers invested a ton of time and money into the old Mac APIs. Carbon is a transitional bridge for developers to get their application running natively within the OS X framework using the old Mac APIs.
So the analogy is clear. Wine can function as a bridge that transitions users from Windows to Linux, while honoring the commitment developers made to the Windows APIs. That means happy end users, since they are liberated from the Microsoft lock-in; and happy developers, since they don't have to throw all their hard work away. I'm surprised distributors like Mandrake don't try to leverage this opportunity.
q
No - I'm not a bastard - I just hate when my internet connection stops working because of high load. Since the post wasn't moderated high, and since I wasn't flooded with e-mail, I will send the report to anybody upon request. And if somebody will publish it on a webpage, that would be great.
"When Loki ports a game we don't use emulation or other tricks. We are creating a native Linux application. That's the only way to take advantage of the features and stability that Linux offers. No Windows software, no matter how well emulated, can do that ... Linux users demand more than Windows software can offer."
Since when is Win32 software inherently unstable? Honestly, can it be proven that a Windows game is unstable just because it's a Windows game? I think not... Quake III is rock-solid on my machine. Through 3 CPU's, 3 OS' and 3 video cards, it's been great. I haven't had it crash on me at all this year. It starts when I start it (every time), it ends when I end it (without crashing).
What's so unstable about it? In fact, I have a grand total of three programs that crash on my machine (Max Payne and the two 3DMark programs). Sounds fine to me, since it's a grand total of ONE engine that crashes on me.