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Article In The Guardian On Internet2
Sam Halter writes: "The Guardian carries this story about the future of the Internet and the expermental Super high-speed academic networks that are being built in Europe and the U.S."
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I'm on the "blazing" internet 2 now. This office is part of the main connection. But guess what! There's 1 connection coming in. And interstate workers have cut the line like 3 times in the last week.
How am I supposed to keep productivity up with this internet 2 thing?!
(As I post to slashdot, click refresh, see what my karma is, refresh,
wash, rinse, repeat if necessary)
Along with the new infrastructure, how about a new browser and a different protocol. Seems like HTTP and webpages as we know it could be made so much better if you had an HTML type language that was more of a application toolkit/RAD deal. So I could write a GUI that is as nice as a local one and doesn't have to be installed on your computer...I guess this is what XUL is supposed to do.....
I need a TiVo for my car. Pause live traffic now.
IMHO, i'd rather have service that is stable where the provider doesn't play any tricks (ahem, Cox@home blocking port 80, ahem), etc.
I kinda view this the same way as i view the "3G" cell phones. I don't care if Joe the businessman can video conference, i just want to have decent voice quality. Same goes for the net... i don't care if Joe the net surfer can browse his pr0n ten times faster, i just want it to work well!
porn? If not, why whould anyone want it? :)
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I'm ignorant on this subject, but I've read the article and it seems like this Internet2 thing is just around the corner, so if I wanted to put some money in and hopefully make a profit down the line, what companies could I invest in? Does anybody know?
~ now you know
Because, of course, intellectually superior people deserve everything better than you. And because the OC3's feeding the current academic sites is not enough to satiate the high academic demand for P2P softare and media pirating.
Who says classism is dead?
Too bad I don't still live in the dorms. I'd get so much pr0n downloaded, er, I mean, so much work done with a connection like that.
--Gaz
"I turn away with fright and horror from the lamentable evil of functions which do not have derivatives."
It was interesting to read in "The Lexus and the Olive Tree" how Europe fumbled with computer manufacturing to the point that the industry is non-existent. Hopefully the latest round of deregulation will help their telecom companies compete. Whether or not they can efficently transfer technology from the lab to the market as well as the US or Asia remains to be seen.
How long will it be before commercialism invades this new internet as well?
Not allowing it will make it much more controlled and perhaps not as free as most would prefer the internet to be.
There are many issues that need to be looked into and the biggest is perhaps: when will I get this hooked up to my room?
Can anybody else think of other issues or what exactly the funders are looking for in return?
Tushar
Quack
internet like monkeys'
We'll travel back in time technologically by attaching terminals to our brains and running through sprinklers.
Does internet 2 use IPv6? v4 is getting very limiting.
IMO the only way to get v6 adopted is (was?) to build a new internet. One of those chicken-and-egg problems, no incentive to upgrade the routers because the endpoints don't use it yet, endpoints don't use it because the routers can't route it.
I just don't get this whole internet 2 thing. You know, if we kicked all of those annoying users off of the internet 1, then we would have a superfast and reasonably stable internet to use. What's the big deal about making a whole new internet if you can't get to slashdot?
the above is my personal opinion and does not necessarily reflect that of the little voices in my head
Will 10gbps really be enough by 2003?
Most of the current swedish university network will be at 10gbps at the end of this year. 10gbps won't be much in 2003.
But perhaps it will be enough since they don't allow move downloads on Internet2
Internet 2, Revenge of the Internet. Coming soon to theaters near you. Rated R (Nudity, Sexual Content, Violence .....)
If it won't boot, Fsck it!
Is that how they spell "experimental" over there?
"With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine." -- RFC 1925
(warning to moderators, slightly off topic but please don't slap me with negative karma. I got the last first post on /. before the switch over to the new comment counting system so I'm special hehe)
My college Johnson and Wales University (Providence, RI campus) currently has several 1.4mbit lines going into the seperate dorms. Each line is shared by like 350-400 people. Now figure that all of those people are running morpheus and uploading/downloading like mad fools. Right now, I'm only getting 3k/sec through websites with some bursts to 20k/sec. This is just horrible considering I haven't been near dialup or any slow connection for almost 2 years.
My friend who goes to Drexel has 160mbit I2. Downloading going less than 700k/sec is "too slow" for him.
The rumor on my campus (credible rumor) is that we're going to get a 45mbit I2 connection. I know all these morpheus users would fill it up, but I think there would be significant improvement over the current setup. I'd be a very happy for any improvement at the moment...
So those are my random thoughts on I2.
----------
Check out my blackbox styles
Woohoo!! Finally I'll have enough bandwith to put the RIAA and the MPAA out of buisiness while still being a ULPB (Ultra Low Ping Bastard) in Quake 3!!
At least, until I start getting hit with full-video popup ads...
- sig? who is this sig of which you speak?
Anyone else frightened by the positive and negative potential of the "Grid" refered to towards the bottom of the article? At once, the notion of distributed computing at this level overwhelms the mind in terms of the benifit to research and developement. But it also seems to tap into a familiar theme in sci-fi - the interweaving of all the world's computers into some sort of incomprehensible entity that eventually destroys humankind for whatever reason (inefficiency, malaise, etc.).
Another thing: this article doesn't get into any of the specifics of the networking and transport models of the internet2. I have looked on the internet2 website to no avail as to quesitons of compatability with the current internet, readiness for ipv6, and built in security features. Has anyone hacked the internet2? It might end up being the fastest way to get your MS Passport stolen.
http://futur.thednb.com
You've got to wonder how far this is going to get without commercial support. If the thing remains pure, then that's great-- but there's only so far it can go.
The internet didn't really pick up until businesses got the idea that they could rape it for all it's worth. Of course, this is what left the researchers feeling like they needed something new in 1996, but it's also probably the reason that it's as widespread as it is today. You can't have a revolution these days if somebody's not coughing up the cash.
Not that using this thing to get a nonexistant ping in Quake 3 isn't a bit of a shame. But it's a bit optimistic to think that the future for Internet2 is as rosy as the article implies, I think.
At the very least, getting some corporations involved in something other than a research capacity would allow them to supply some advertising muscle-- I mean, you'd think somebody in the past five years would have been able to come up with a snappier title than "Internet2."
The title Article In The Guardian On Internet2 is erroneous. The article is actually about Geant, "the new pan-European network serving more than 3,000 of the continent's academic and research institutions". Basically, Europes version of I2.
-no broken link
Internet2, c'mon can't them push it a little further and come up with a little bit more creative name?
Don't say No, say May be
Astronomers are now able to control the telescopes from their desktops in the research labs, such is the speed of the connection and the reliability of Internet2.
:)
They should enjoy it while it lasts... that is, until the spammers find their internet2 mail addresses.
-- No sig today
We already started a project like that, here in Canada. This is used for experimental/educational use, like live video streaming, ressources sharing, ...
http://www.canarie.ca/
http://www.viagenie.qc.ca/ they deploy ipv6 here in Quebec
>Even companies such as McDonald's, Johnson & Johnson and Ford are keenly
>watching developments on the new networks. The fast food chain has already shown interest in
>the tele-immersion experiments being run on Internet2.
>The company envisioned fitting tele-immersion cubicles in its restaurants so people away from
>home - even in separate countries - could have dinner with their family
<vocoded voice>please can I have the crappy easy to choke on wind up toy, mommy, please>
I'm currently a student at the University of Maryland we have Internet2 connectivity. Stolen from OIT's network throughput page is:
A 75Mbps connection to Qwest Communications for commodity internet traffic.
An Gigabit Ethernet connection to MAX (Mid Atlantic Crossroads), a consortium of local research institutions, through which we have high speed connectivity to those institutions as well as the NSF vBNS network and the Internet2 Abilene Network.
An ATM connection to UMATS, the intercampus network of the University System of Maryland for connectivity with other USM schools.
Internet2 gives me downloads very close to the theoretical max of the 10megabit connection to my room, which is great for being an ultra-low-ping bastard in games. With the gigabit connection, the ping times to basically any location on Internet2 is the same as if it was on your LAN.
To answer the IPv4 vs. IPv6 question, it uses the same IPv4 that the rest of the world uses, it just appears to be more infrastructure to speed up things.
Gawyn
Freedom of Speech?
I know linux has support for it. But have any ISP's taken steps towards actual implementation?
Does MS have support in XP?
The man who trades freedom for security does not deserve nor will he ever receive either. - Benjamin Franklin
Here's hoping the creators of Internet v2.0 learn from the mistakes and lessons of Internet v1.0.
I'll drink to that...
-AlPhAbEt
I'll bet Internet2 can handle more spam and get it there faster.
what's in store for Internet 3? In a few years every one with DSL or cable will be hooked into Internet 2. What's next? Enough bandwith for total immersion porn simulation?
OK Folks. I worked in URi's networking department and I'll tell you what I2 is. I2 is a high-speed connection to other universities with I2, it is NOT the 'future' it is NOT anything special. Packets originating inside our school hit the router, if the destination is on I2, the packets go through the I2 pipe, if not they hit the commercial router. You can get stats on URI's Internet connections at http://zeppole.uri.edu/mrtg/, you can see that the I2 is not heavily used because most people want stuff off the .com TLDs.
.iso from redhat.com it goes really slowly, if I get it from rutgers.edu it flies. Nothing 'revolutionary' just the Internet as it was meant to be.
If I want to download an
Now if I could only connect URI to the high-school hosted in our building (the high school is ten feet above me, but 12 internet hops!).
If network folks interconnected more, the world would be a lot better.
Quote "For example, the famous telescopes on the top of Mauna Kea in Hawaii are now hooked up to Internet2. Astronomers are now able to control the telescopes from their desktops in the research labs, such is the speed of the connection and the reliability of Internet2."
I wonder how much bandwidth is really required to drive a bunch of servos. Now, if they also retrieving the images at a high rez and frame rate, that's a different thing.
There is supposedly going to be some sort of dance production to promote Internet2 at the SuperComputing 2001 conference in Denver. The performance is going to be done entirely on Internet2, with choregraphers, dancers, and a sypmhony from various locations around the world.
There's an article here. The project site is here.
I didn't see any mention of improving latencies so I guess they are helping the multimedia and file sharing internet applications. Stuart Cheshire's It's the Latency, Stupid article gives a good explantion of why more bandwidth isn't the only thing the industry should quote when selling access.
I still don't really see the point. OK, we can deliver 40Gb of bandwidth. Why do we want it?
All of the scenarios in the article seemed dreamed up to show that such a network might eventually be useful. They mention virtual teaching, but as I understand it, the thorniest problems in distance learning have nothing to do with network speed.
How about things that change our lives in more human ways?
However I2 isn't just supposed to set FTP speed records. Connecting educational institutions was designed to advance research in high speed network and practical applications. Some mentioned were interactive video applications, multicast HDTV and the like. It will be great when we start to see these apps, but unfortunately this will be some time coming.
While I2 now provides the theoretical playground for researchers and some developers to start generating next generation applications and protocols, these applications and protocols will most likely depend on the bandwidth of I2. Right now there are like 200 universities that are on I2. However the technology that is produced by them will stay theoretical until thousands of companies gain access, and those companies will have to wait until millions of homes are wired before they can ship their products.
I see I2 as being a lot like IPV6. A needed improvement, and a good thing. However something that will take time to permiate into our daily lives. Here's hoping it doesn't actually take that long to hit the market.
I'm not a tech guru... but why can't we make a new "net" wirelessly, using 80211B connectors, that share information with a gnutella like interface with other computers around us? We could have a cloud of computers instead of a net. all the computers witin range of a connection, sharing 10 percent of its resources with all the others, which in turn share with the ones they connect to... this could actually replace the internet.
Ahem, the whole point is that the comercial shit has clogged and ruined the first net. The perversity is that the backbones are NOT being used. The bandwith has been drooled out to a few select companies who are bussy trying to control it and rape the public for access. The article claims: Geant and Internet2 are not separate from the physical network of fibre optic cables and telephone lines that serve today's commercial internet ... What both networks do is buy connectivity on the open market from the telecommunications network operators, and then earmark it for research purposes only. They don't lay any new cables and they don't dig up the road.
While I have little faith that it will happen, some government regulation along the lines of electric utilities would be useful here. A garanteed, but modest, rate of return for investment and regulations in the public interest would be a much nicer and better way to fund and develop the net than the current Rapist Cartel. $160/month for DSL? You heard it here. Give me a freaking break! As things are, the owners of the new media are striving to control it and make it more like cable TV. Adverts and overcharging all parties is not the best way to foster the new media. So what does your piece of the bandwith look like?
Even companies such as McDonald's, Johnson & Johnson and Ford are keenly watching developments on the new networks. The fast food chain has already shown interest in the tele-immersion experiments being run on Internet2.
Would you like fries with that teleconference? Yeah right. My current ISP won't let me host email, ftp or html. I doubt that they will let me host my own video.
Fuck them all!
DMCA, Hollings, Palladium. What might have sounded like paranoia is now common sense.
Isn't this wonderful? when people that meet in chat rooms decide to finally go out to dinner together, they STILL won't have to physically interact with each other!
C'est pas apres qu'on a fait dans son pantalon qu'il faut serrer les fesses.
Seti@home was an interesting project because it provided an excellent model for ultra high latency supercomputing, ie. You could send a small amount of data to a computer let it churn for a while and get it back much later. Actually, though most supercomputing problems that are distributed require much more communication inbetween nodes. What programming frameworks/languages are being used now in low-latency applications for distributed computing.
I suppose these days you'd use CD-R or DVDs....
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
For the resolution-impaired.
This is slightly off-topic as well, but just responding to the above post.
I have a friend who goes to Cal Poly San Luis Obispo in CA. He was telling me that so many people are using Morpheus and Kazaa that just like above, the internet connections are TERRIBLY slow.
Apparently what Cal Poly SLO has done to combat this is cut their bandwidth in half. I guess the story goes that someone donated their internet connection (or the money for it) under the terms that Cal Poly could not BLOCK any website. So to get around this file sharing craze, they just go and cut their available bandwidth in half. This makes it even slower/impossible for people to transfer files, so eventually people just give up.
I personally am not sure how effective this is, but my friend was telling me that many people he knows have stopped using Morpheus just for this exact reason that it is so slow.
The real question is, will we see IPv6 deployed on Internet2, and will the 'little guy' be able to participate in the core structure of the internet2 (i.e. be assigned routable IP space)?
/19.
The internet was supposedly designed to route around points of failure, however this is now only really true of the 'core' of
the internet - As it grows, it becomes less and less robust, since routable IPs are no longer available to people who need less than (or can't afford to pay for) a
Without being able to advertise routes, you are at the mercy of your (neccesarily) sole inbound provider, and this is the way that most corporate and government interests would like it to stay.
What the Internet2 needs is a new routing protocol, or at least employ equipment with a decent capacity for route tables.
What is the point of IPv6 (more address space) if you can't route what you currently have without hacks like CIDR.
There is absolutely no point in assigning every device an IP address if the majority of those devices are not accessible directly, or cannot be accessed if failures further up the heirarchy cannot be routed around,. rendering them unreachable. It's just stupid.
Only with the provision to allow new players to 'compete' on equal technological footing with 'the big boys' will we see meaningful growth in internet technologies past the next 10 years or so.
I gots ta ding a ding dang my dang a long ling long
You forgot to mention Canada's Network.
Canada's educational only network ranks (as of about 8 months ago) the fastest in the world. And (as of 8 months ago) was vastly ahead of both the US and Britain.
I believe the network I am refering to is called CA*Net... but I am not entirely sure.
I don't know where it stands now, but it would be nice to see some mention in these articles.
- Grib
** = Speaking up for the little guy -- where little equals the (second - depending on your point of view) largest country in the world = **
Ok, first of all. Internet2 is slow. Really slow. They are hopeing for 10Gigabit in 2003? What? I know people with home networks that fast. That really is bottom of the line when it comes to backhaul networks. Most major telecommunication companies know have backbones in the Tb range, because of DWDM technology. I know Time-Warner has 80Tb lit, and will another 80Tb soon. You used to be able to get around 10Gigabit on a single fiber strand, now its about 16x that with dwdm technology by Nortel, Lucent, or a host of other companies. Thats 160Gigabit on a single strand of fiber. This network really is not fast in any way whatsover. I have used computers on schools on I2, it really isnt that fast. In fact, its so bogged down, its slower then 10Mbit for the most part.
Second, I wouldnt exactly call Europe lagging behind hind us in bandwith. In fact, as far as bandwith between colleges they kick our ass, and have for many many years. Have you have transfered between Euro schools. We are talking about 8-9megs a second, consistantly. I believe their is a network (not sure if its Janet or what its called) that is 80Gigabit running between a bunch of schools. The bandwith at uwente.nl is amazing. Thats why all the top software piracy sites are located there. US colleges internet speeds are pathetic and in the range of 1/100th of that of Euro schools. Most euro schools I have ran into have 100Mbit to the dorms, and have for years, most US schools are still 10Mbit (I know University of Washington , where I go, is, and I can name of dozens of other major universities that are). In fact, 1Gigabit in dorms is really starting to become popular in euro schools. Like I said, Utwente.nl has quite a few software piracy sites running a 1Gigabit. We cant even hope to catch up until we upgrade to at least 100Mbit in most of our schools. Then we will still be years behind.
Jeff Knox
Routing.
main(c,r){for(r=32;r;) printf(++c>31?c=!r--,"\n":c<r?" ":~c&r?" `":" #");}
People are getting it all wrong. I2 isn't the "next" or "new" Internet and it wasn't created for brand new applications or new "mindsets" for doing things because it's so blistering fast. It was created because schools can't afford commercial pipes. It's less expensive to connect schools together directly than connect them to a national, commercial provider at these high speeds.
I2 is primarily fast because it isn't used all that much. You don't have thousands of AOL dialups clogging up the network, @Home/Time Warner boxen downloading pirated movies, or the psychic friends network using it to do their VoIP. That all eats bandwidth. Instead, you have the occasional geek downloading a slackware distribution, or browsing the Computer Science department of another university. If suddenly all the schools would allow traffic over their commercial pipes to access their I2 routers, I'm sure the network would slow down now seeing it's accessible to the public - along with all the abuses and bandwidth eating applications.
I guess the best analogy to this would be comparing it to an underground tunnel between schools only for academic use, compared to a giant highway for public use. The underground tunnel doesn't nearly have the capacity of the massive highway, but is much faster. So just because something is fast doesn't mean its on the edge of technology or is, in fact, anything special.
I have used I2 and it is quite fast, but what can you get on it? The latest well hyperlinked personal page of a student in a nearby school? This makes it loose much of the reason why the real Internet is so popular -- it's a space where you can find anything. But I2 defeats this purpose by limiting what the network can connect to, and thus its usefulness. It may be useful at testing new applications, like an HDTV stream, but since you're not doing this on a public network to begin with it's applications are limited to your own, highly restrictive network. You can't say you've done something new when all you've done is create an exclusive network that doesn't address the real problems of networks anyway - like last mile access and exponentional bandwidth increases. IMO, I2 is a way for schools to have a fast link to each other without paying the huge costs associated with a 1 GB link to the national backbone. That's all it is, and that's all it probably will be.
"I'll just chip in a bit for RedHat: I actually have that installed on my university machine." - Linus, '95
Absolutly. I just love providers, such as Global Net Business Solutions LLC out of Lincoln NH, that take down vital servers frequently during the day with no notice. Or, when I am downloading my email, and they reboot their mail servers, or when I am surfing, and they take down their DNS or other servers. I know for a fact that they reboot each server atleast 3 times a day (out of 6 machines).
Stability? Not even close. Reliability? HAHAHA! Is there one out there which comes close to these 2 requirements?