Slashdot Mirror
Ask Ed Felten About Watermarking Analysis And More
Dr. Edward Felten is in a funny position -- or perhaps not so funny. He's the Princeton researcher who took up the challenge posed by the music industry to find flaws in the SMDI watermarking scheme, but didn't enter into the 'no-telling' bargain (here's the click-through agreement [pdf]) which would have made him eligible for a reward, so wasn't bound by non-disclosure terms. When a scheduled academic presentation on the weaknesses [pdf] that he and his colleages found in SDMI became the object of lawsuit threats from the RIAA, and caused him to cancel the planned presentation, Felten decided to turn the tables, and in cooperation with the EFF, sue them instead, for interfering with his scholarly research. Though he did eventually get to present his research, the legal action is still going. Dr. Felten is at a hearing today in Trenton, NJ, but he's agreed to answer questions from Slashdot readers. Please confine your questions carefully (one per post), and we'll pass the highest-moderated ones on for his answers.
Or one of it's alternatives?
Do you believe that what the RIAA is trying to do is mathematically feasable, and that their attempt was merely the wrong way of going about the problem, or do you believe that what is being attempted is fundamentally impossible?
Slashdot 's editors are dickheads
I've heard at various times that the RIAA has some mob connections (you know, like the Teamsters, wink wink, nudge nudge). Sure, threats of lawsuits are enough to keep a fellow up late at night, but how scary is the RIAA, really?
If you win your lawsuit, what type of precedent will it set? Will it encourage others to sue to regain their freedom of speech? Was this idea something you thought about when you were deciding upon filing charges?
God is real unless declared integer
What is the best case outcome for the lawsuit that you and the EFF have started. Is it possible that the DMCA (or parts of it) can be found unconstitutional? Or would a "best case" just be a weaking of the DMCA, where for certain purposes people would be allowed to discuss their findings regardless of the DMCA.
Also, how likely (in the opinion of you or your lawyers) are the different possible outcomes of this case?
As of today, I understand that you are able to give presentations based upon the flaws you've discovered in digital watermarking. In essence, you have won this battle...However, you are still continuing your lawsuit against the RIAA.
What do you hope to accomplish further, and in your opinion, what could be the best possible outcome from your lawsuit against the RIAA.
----------
ah honey, we're all resplendent - Bill Mallonee
nevermind...i'm stupid...pull that post :) i overlooked the linked pdf on this
If you were in the position where you were trying to get a handle on rampant piracy of your work, what (digital) means would you pursue to secure your work?
Slashdot 's editors are dickheads
Dear Ed,
It's clear to almost everyone that your lawsuit was nothing but an attempt to set up the RIAA. The RIAA has been nothing if not exceptionally clear about the fact that they never intended nor attempted to suppress anyone's research.
My question is: Why? What was your actual motiviation? Were you just trying to cause a ruckus, or were you attempting to further some political agenda?
If guns kill people, then CmdrTaco's keyboard misspells words.
So, without revealing anything revealing, is there a better way to please the RIAA without sacrificing user-friendly concepts like "fair use" ?
"Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana." - Marx
Do you feel that research, your specific research and/or research in general, should be presented in an 'open' forum, if said research is paid for, in part or in whole, with tax-supplied funds?
This gets down to a licensing issue, on the public being charged twice for the research and it's benefits.
Eric Gearman
--
Atomic batteries to power! Turbines to speed!
Q: Do you think that people should need a doctorate in order to moderate on Slashdot?
Q: In your opinion, how do you feel about the restrictions that the RIAA imposed upon you regarding SDMI after you did your research and found problems?
I wish you the best with regards to your suit against the RIAA; their intimidation tactics are despised by almost everybody in this community. But, though IANAL, I was wondering what precedent there is for this type of lawsuit. What damages have you suffered as a result of the RIAA's actions (you were ultimately able to present your research) and what resolution do you ultimately hope to attain? Do you really believe that such a goal is within reach, given the DeCSS/Napster rulings?
ByteMyCode.com: A Web 2.0 code sharing community.
Hi Prof Felten,
As an academic myself, I am gratified by your colleagues and your decision to publish your findings instead of claiming the $10000 prize (personally, I find the $10000 "prize" for the HackSDMI challenge measly, and even bordering on insulting.).
The fact that you are suing the RIAA for intefering into your academic activities indicates your stance on the issue of academic freedom to research. However, the RIAA has deep-pockets, and the fight has just begun. It is not inconceivable that in the future, the academia may come under the control of rich corporations manipulating research for their own selfish ends.
So, my question is, do you see a bright future for a "free academia" or do you see a academia that willi increasingly be locked down by corporate interests and their lawyers/lobbyists?
Mode (3) smart-aleck mode. Press * to return to main menu.
In looking at the lawsuit, it looks like to me that it hinges on the facts that the click thru agreement did not apply if you never had any intention to try to collect the reward. If that is held up in court. Does your legal counsel believe that the RIAA's fallback assertion of we (RIAA) never meant to sue you hold up in court?
Or is it more likely that the judge will actually tackle the real issue of the DMCA stifling research (and now foreign visitors presenting papers re: Sklyarov)
-Jerry
Do you think the music industry will ever perfect security measures on cds and other media, or will there always be some flaw to be exploited? Will research such as yours perhaps lead to impregnable copy protection, and is that a good or bad thing in your opinion?
"Why is all this crap here?" -- 4-year-old Brandon
Dr. Felten, thanks for your time to answer our questions. We do appreciate it. :-)
First, when you started your research, did you ever expect that you would be at the forefront of a legal battle to keep academic speech free and protected? Do you ever have any misgivings about taking a high profile in this matter? I know there are some researchers (some of my colleauges included) who shy away from anything legal and would rather just do work that might not be as controversial. It's good to see you getting involved and make sure that our rights as academics are preserved.
Secondly, what has it been like working with the EFF? I have a great deal of respect for them and have been a member for a couple of years now. I am just curious as to the 'behind-the-scenes' process that you and the EFF lawyers have been persuing as this case pans out.
Karma: Excellent Birds (mostly as a result of listening to Laurie Anderson)
Why'd you do it? I understand why it had to be done - the onerous law can only be harmful - but what made you decide you, personally, should get involved like this to change it? I've kept and eye on the case and you've been very smart about how you're doing everything, so don't try to sneak off with a "it just happened this way."
Thank you
"Enough of this wretched, whining monkey life." -- Marcus Aurelius, _Meditations_, Book 9, 37
Why did you do a 180 degree turn twice: publish, not publish, publish? I can understand one change but not two.
I am not talking about breaking the watermark itself, but the planned presentation and then you not presenting because of the RIAA threat?
Fight Spammers!
Shut up, dumbass. Moderators, please mod both parents to -1.
Given the attempts of the RIAA to ensure encryption of music products, etc. where do you stand philosophically on the issues of Copyright protections, etc?
"It is a greater offense to steal men's labor, than their clothes"
I was always told in my computer studies that water and electronics do not mix. So if you were to mark data with water wouldn't that actually damage it to the point that it would be useless to the user?
Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government.
Groups such as the MPAA and RIAA are making it a scary time for people invovled with technology. Obviously many decisions made now will have great effects on the future, very possibly in bad ways. From your experiences what do you think is the best way to stop the threat from these organizations?
I can't spell or type, but that doesn't mean I'm unusually stupid.
How badly has the RIAA letter affected academia and how it operates? Do you see it getting worse if the Felten v. RIAA decision goes decidedly against you?
Please confine your questions carefully (one per post)
No one else seems to have followed this simple directive, but you are perhaps the worst offender.
T
Dr. Felten, do you believe the big corporations are going to destroy academic freedom within the American education system? I'm currently enrolled in a major university and many big corporations openly participate and fund some of the class projects we do, as part of our education. One major concern of mine whenever we have these projects has always been whether my or my groups work will conflict with the interests of the participating corporation and will summarily result in the cancelation of my/our initial designs.
It looks like since you weren't bound by an agreement you have every right to disclose your findings. The RIAA is saying your actions "would subject your research team to enforcement actions under the DMCA and possibly other federal laws."
I understand the reasoning behind countersuing for disruption of research, but why would you choose this option over a direct countersuit to challenge the DMCA? Your victory could theoretically mean the end of the DMCA by setting a valuable precedent.
There are people in the world who can easily pick the kind of lock that most of us have on our front door. Nonetheless, it is illegal to pick the lock in order to gain entry. However it is not illegal to write lock picking instructions, or to present a paper on lock picking.
(now to my question)
It seems that if laws against breaking and entering were not enforced, people (particularly those who wanted to protect themselves and their valuables) would be a lot more concerned about lock-picking. What do you think can (or should?) be done to enforce our existing copyright laws so that measures such as the one you are fighting will eventually be unnecessary?
Amazing magic tricks
Dr. Felten,
:-)
I don't think that anyone on this site would argue for an instant that current law has had a chilling effect on researchers such as yourself. The government has forbidden legitimate research into security circumvention tools, essentially sticking its head in the sand and pretending that crackers and citizens of foreign countries won't continue security research themselves.
That having been said, the events of September 11th really came as a shock to the system for a lot us here. Suddenly, the idea of someone, say, cracking Triple-DES and distributing the crack on the Internet seemed a little more scary than it did on September 10th. If someone (*cough*Al Queda*cough*) were able to read our military secrets, you can bet there would be a real loss of human life associated with it.
Obviously, discussing flaws in SDMI and publishing a Triple-DES crack are two different balls of wax. So, the real question - do you think anti-circumvention legislation is *ever* warranted? Or is any legislation at *all* simply more sticking our heads in the sand?
(proudly wearing my DeCSS t-shirt
If it ain't broke, it doesn't have enough features yet.
Everybody likes to talk about standing up for free speech, but many would rather sit on the bench than actually step up to the plate.
How has this situation affected you personally ?
Has it increased your level of day to day stress ?
Do you lose sleep over it ?
I'm referring both to your original decision to publish your work and your current legal effort.
Absolute statements are never true
What has been the tenor of the lawsuit with respect to the RIAA, what has their attitude been? For example, has the RIAA offered concessions, or have they been confident in their position?
She sat at the window watching the evening invade the avenue.
Research has started as a public research for the good of everybody, everything public researcher discovered was made public. Now, we can see a trend that some public founded researchs get screwed because of some ridiculous patents or laws. Did you try to make some clear ruling about that with your case against the SDMI? What are your hopes about the results?
All of us here have our own opinions of the RIAA, copy protection, fair use, and the legal actions the RIAA has taken (mostly along the lines of Hillary Rosen must be atomized), but, as someone who has been directly affected by the RIAA's hubris, what's your opinion all this? Do you think the RIAA is legitimatly -- albeit illegally -- interested in protecting the interests of musicians, or do you think their loyalties lie with the producers and labels? Do you think they think they are really the good guys? Do you think they are after money or control?
One more thing: what do you anticipate will be the end result of the intellectual-property fiasco? Will we be condemned to a world of SDMI and single-use music, or will fair use win out in the end?
-- Nerds on toast in the new millenium
At what point would you have said screw my convictions, I'm taking the money. 100k? a million? five million?
No, really!
It seems like every time someone creates a new method to protect copyright works, the protection is bypassed, sometimes within days. Everyone on Slashdot always says if you can hear it, you can copy it and that is very much true, it is just the nature of the technology we have today.
From a technological standpoint, do you feel the RIAA is wasting thier time or do you think they will reach a certain level of protection that will be worth thier efforts?
From a scientific point of view, is there any evidence that technologies could be invented which enable producers of digital content to control how this digital content is used, and by whom? Should there be a difference between theory and real life, I'd be interested in an answer under real-world assumptions, that is, there is an Internet and people connect to it using devices fully under their own control.
http://erichsieht.wordpress.com/category/english/
I'm curious to what your take is on copy protections and the history of their circumventions.
In my view it seems that no matter what copy protection technology comes out, someone makes something to circumvent and defeat it.
Do you think there will there ever be an "unbreakable" protection scheme?
And how easy/hard is it to "alter" an image or a sound clip to defeat it's watermark?
Thanks.
[Connection closed by foreign host]
I loved you in part I & II - do you think you will have an increased or diminished role in Terminator III? I wondered if they'd focus more on you or the mother. I also understand that you've had some personal problems around Hollywood, and that they make want to downplay your part a bit. Why do you think you've been so successful at the Terminator movie, but haven't been able to branch out more? Was the role just made for you, or are you still looking for that majic script? Anyway, thanks for all the great fun! C-Ya in T-III!!!
Since your encounter with RIAA, have you come across other researchers/projects that are hindered in real academic or corporate research? If so, what is the depth and range of the effect? If not, what do you see as potential unintentional implications, which legislators and companies have no considered, but is possible under the new copy protection laws?
I am currently a student and my friends and I all have an interest in "hacking", both hardware and software. Many of the laws that have bound you in the United States will also bind us here in Japan due to the multinational nature of many corporations and agreements on Intellectual Property.
Do you have advice for the curious student, perhaps someone interested in research or experiments similar to yours, but without any resources to assist him in a court of law? I have had a friend who received threats of a legal nature from a large company and he chose not to continue his research since he did not have the resources for a lengthy legal battle.
To conclude my question, what would you recommend to the student who wishes to do as you have done, but does not have similar resources?
Thank you.
R. Suzuka
Not a question, ignore this if you are planning to moderate me on that basis. I'm just saying, to this topic, any man who can stand up to these new communist IP laws is brave, and deserves a big pat on the back, like the doc here.
Is it possible that scientist like Dr. Felton who are working in areas where they might come in conflict with the DMCA or similar legislature, will choose to work at non-US universities rather than subject themselves to possible lawsuits and imprisonment in the US.
And in the same context might foreign scientist refrain from coming to conferences in the US for the same reason.
***Quis custodiet ipsos custodes***
Dr. Felten,
As the old axiom goes, "Hindsight is 20/20". At this point in your battle, having become a public representative of academic freedom and constitutionality, is there anything you regret, any decisions you would have made differently if you could do all of this over again?
As an avid slashdot reader & EFF supporter, I'd like to wish you the best of luck in your fight! I'm sure I speak for the entire slashdot community when I say that you are truly an inspiration to us all.
-Mike
Dr Felton,
Any security protection will deter 80-90%of the people. Of the remaining people, 1-2% will not be deterred by anything and the rest will take advantage of the work of the 1-2%. Copy protection doesn't work in the digital world as well as it works in the analog world. It would seem that perhaps the laws governing the digitial world ought to be different from the analog world, perhaps even different for different types of digital "ideas".
What is your opinion of the best way to implement copyright, patent, or other Intellectual Property protection for authors while protecting fair use rights of consumers?
What do you think the realistic impact on illegal music trading would be if the technology you tested was implemented on a widescale basis now that your research is in the public domain?
Moderators, please put your little pee sprouts in my poop shoot and leave a load of nad nectar all over my butt-cheeeeeks.
Thank you,
Vincent Price
Don't you think Flanders is a bad football coach?
Yes, folks, I am indeed on a roll.
I'll keep the bad jokes coming!
Good quote, too many chars. Seriously, the slashdot 120 char limit sucks!
We all know that Natalie Portman is a beautiful up and coming young actress. However the hot item of debate is the following: Do you prefer Ms. Portman with or without hot grits? We thank you sincerely for your time and consideration with our question and eagerly await your response. Cheers.
A social question .. do you feel that the pervasion of technology as a means of security contributes to the number of people who feel comfortable with trying to do something illegal (ie, Napsterize, for example)? Do think disproving the effectiveness of current watermarking schemes is an incentive for the RIAA to combat piracy as a social problem, or simply as an incentive to develop more secure, uncrackable copyright protection schemes?
"Old man yells at systemd"
MicroSoft, RIAA, DMCA...
You're playing with the big boys.
Where do you see yourself ending up?
Shut up, be happy. The conveniences you demanded are now mandatory. -- Jello Biafra
Your gonna come down with the gay flu if you don't watch it.
Is it much more difficult (outside of mass distribution issues) to mark each distinct copy with a unique watermark, than it is to use a single generic watermark?
Dr. Felton,
Recently an article was written by Jon Katz about an e-mail he received from an old friend in Afghanistan. It was obvious to just about everyone but Jon that the e-mail he described was either a hoax or a complete fabrication by Mr. Katz himself.
What is your opinion of these events? Would you sign a petition to rid Jon Katz from Slashdot?
Assuming that you win the case and the court awards reimbursement of legal cost. I read that it is expected to reach up to $2M. How much of that is covered by donation and what will the money be spend on. Further efforts against DMCA or some of the newer Sept. 11 induced attacks of civil liberites?
Help fight continental drift.
Hi Dr. Felton,
I admire you and your colleagues and consider you part of my group of personal heroes. My questions is this, with technology (namely the internet) serving as a the most accelerated vehicle for globalization, and with America leading the world in many technologies, and especially those concerning entertainment industries -- where IP is king -- how do you see the interests of Private parties such as corporations extending the reach of American law to the entire global market. For example, if it was a Russian, Chinese, Isreali professor who cracked the SDMI would the RIAA still have credible threats. I think they would, but I don't think they should. Can you talk a little about the domain of (US) IP law and the negative effect of IP laws in academic research, which has always benefitted from global networks.
Thanks, Patrick
WTF? "Watermelon analysis"? Is this something I really need to hear about? Is this stuff that matters?
Watermarking? Oh... Never mind...
Any advice about relaying my desire to have anal sex to my wife? She's kind of a prude about it.
Try the work they contractualy bind artists to create. I might feel sorry for them if they accualy created it, or didn't cheat the artists.
First, congratulations on a nice piece of work!
The RIAA seems clearly out-of-line in their legal attempt to stop the publication of your work. Hopefully your legal case against them will set usable boundaries for Intellectual Property disputes in future.
My question is: How did the RIAA get themselves in this situation? It appears really stupid for an organization of their stature. Didn't they know where to find a good mathematician when they developed SDMI? With all due respect, surely you weren't the only guy out there who could solve this problem. Then to lay it out on the table and bet the world, it couldn't be read. It just all seems like a comedy of bad management.
How did it happen???
People have long decried the increasing trend in university scientific research whereby private corporations seem to be dictating more and more what should be the subject of academic interest.
Now we have a private entity blazanly attempting to suppress research they didn't even finance because it shows critical weaknesses in their technology (even if they make the weak claim they have a disinterested motivation for their action). Not withstanding the incredible poor taste of telling a professor he can't present his work, after having asked for said research to happen in the first place, because the conclusions the work comes to aren't the ones desired. I am left with the bitter cold feeling that we are slowly slipping into a new era of corporate meddling where all manner of 'unpopular' academic research will find itself the subjects of lawsuits because some crafty lawyer has found a new way to extropolate the clauses of the DMCA in such a way that it protects his clients product in some fashion.
What are your thoughts on this and how do you assess the willingness of america's academia to resist this trend?
Do not spread "09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0" over the internet, thank you.
As a developer myself, I have given a lot of thought to protection schemes and what-not, but really feel like it may not be worth the effort at a certain point... Is there a "magical" formula that can approximate the amount of time and money that goes into protecting your software from being copied? I firmly believe that no matter how hard a person/corporation tries, they're never going to come up with something that can't eventually be cracked. I also believe that it is reasonable to spend some time and money on protecting your software, at least from the everyday user. The amount of people that can/do crack some of these protection schemes is small in relation to the total number of users in most cases. If a person/company can at least protect his software from the masses... then maybe that's good enough at a certain point? I tend to believe that's why the RIAA has really been up in arms about all of this... ever since Napster become so popular and so easy to use that all of the non-technical people could also pirate music. I guess my question is mainly "do you think it is worth the RIAA's effort and investment to protect music from being copied? And at what point would/wouldn't it be worth it?" Thanks, thundercatzlair
Do you wanna rock?
Why is it all the morons who post on here won't take credit for their posts? I made a simple mistake, but obviously I can admit to it and take credit for my post by not posting anonymously. Grow up people!!
Personally I feel very strongly that legislation banning or regulating reverse engineering is wrong in the moral sense. Scientists, mathemeticians and students of literature reverse engineer nature and the human mind. Reverse engineering a few man-made items seems to me to be part of the same pursuit of curiosity. Would you care to comment?
Speak for yourself, you bastard. I don't need your annoying words in my mouth.
If the watermark was of a tree falling in a forest, and no one was around to hear that tree, would it make a sound? Could be a good watermarking scheme ;)
-
ping -f 255.255.255.255 # if only
The DMCA seems to contains the seeds of a very dangerous concept - that of requiring credentials to perform research into cryptography. My position is that anyone who cares to has a right to perform "research" and to publicize the results. To limit research to guild members is incredibly offensive. Any thoughts or comments?
Where do you feel that academic research and law will go from here?
Who do you blame for the current debacle? Those who drafted the law or those who in an over zealot reach asked for the law (and possibly wrote it)?
And, what's your worst fear of these groups trying to legislate their commercial rights?
Henry
III.IIVIVIXIIVIVIIIVVIIIIXVIIIXIIIIIIIIVIIIIVVIII
Do you think that the RIAA's suit against you implies that they are themselves skeptical that they can create a good security scheme?
Jesus saves....And takes 1/2 damage.
dr, felton. why did you cancel you first presentation. were u afraid of them?
After Napster and all the other file-sharing services it seems downloading music (and movies) without paying a cent has become the norm. .
Do you think that, by using cryptography, watermarking or other copy-protection/prevention technologies, the entertainment industry can go back to the past situation when everyone paid (a lot) for having their copies of music/movies or, on the contrary, the technologies don't exist and will never exist to prevent the parallel distribution that we have nowadays?
Not to step on toes here, but I thought that the above question was good, but phrased a bit awkwardly:
Dr. Felton, do you think that a scientist who is working on research that may come into conflict with the DMCA or similar legislature will choose to work at a non-US university to avoid legal trouble?
In the same vein, do you think that laws like the DMCA will prevent scientists from foreign countries from coming to the US to do research?
She sat at the window watching the evening invade the avenue.
How do I get rid of those water marks on ceilings? i think they are coming from pipes or a tank in the roof. I have tried painting over them, but it doesn't work (the water causes the paint to run). Also, i have hired a plumber to check for leaks but he found none, and the marks continue to appear. Anyway, What are your views on water marking bank notes? i don't know how it works in America, but here we have water marks on our money to tell if its been faked. Is this a useless technology? (seeing as anyone who had the correct machine could also fake the money with a water mark). Also, i heard someone over there was in court because they found out how to fake a watermark, and they wanted to tell everyone, but the company who made them said they couldn't. Is this a restriction of free speech? isn't that protected under the first amendment? isn't the first amendment some sacred law that signified everything your country was based on and couldn't be taken away by anyone no matter how rich or powerful they were?
This comment does not represent the views or opinions of the user.
Dr Felten,
It has been my experience that academia tries, or atleast pretends to try to protect intellectual property. I think its really cool you stepped up to the challenge of breaking the watermark, but the course of action seems strange. The industry although bloated and corrupt is trying to protect their intellectual rights, and now you to are trying to do the same thing in a legal battle. So my question is then, why did you take this project on? Was it get your name out there (which is important in academia), to help the industry out (which is why they gave you $10,000), or some reason I missed. It seems strange that you would go public with the watermark information if you are worried about your own rights..
Thanks
We post as ACs because we all live with the same of having Cmdr Tacos little penis in our anus at one point in time. I used to have an account, but Taco emailed me and asked me if he could personally evaluate my slashdot experience. Then he drugged me and raped me. It happens all the time. Most rapes don't get reported because the victim feels ashamed or embarassed. I never understood this mindset until it happened to me. We have a support group in the Yahoo forums if you ever need to join us.
Do you plan to try to find weaknesses in newer schemes, or do the current legal headaches discourage you from doing so?
Was it simply the existence of the contest which prompted you to do the research you did, or would you try to work on cracking future schemes even if there were no such contest?
If I can be modded down for being a troll, can I be modded up for being an orc, or a balrog?
Do you believe in open source music?
Is my assessment that SDMI is dead as a doornail correct, or not?
sulli
RTFJ.
What do you see as being the future of digital media: a business model based on consumers having little or no control over the information they pay for and consumers willing to put up with this, or something more similar to traditional rules where a company has little control over its product once it is sold, digital or otherwise?
cracking 3DES is perfectly legal, and if someone did find a way to crack it, its millions of users would definitely like to know! Al Qaeda or no Al Qaeda.
sulli
RTFJ.
Maybe you would have prefered if
he just knukled under to these bullys.
Not everyone is a monopolist money-monger.
Bravo! How dare these fasholes at RIAA try
to take over digital distribution.
If they want to protect their content then
they should release it only for their own
propratory network and stay off of public networks.
Greed destroys invoation. RIAA is a mafia and designed to maintain a monopoly of money mongering fat-cat fasholes
What should I do? Sure don't want to give up fucking.
Can Wil Wheaton be in your paper?
Do you think there are situations where research results should be kept confidential, or should research and the information resulting from it be public, even if it might cause severe damage?
Dr. Felten,
It seems, from the outside, that you are in a position similar to the "Gambler's Ruin" fallecy.
(For those not familliar with this, it works like this: Bob goes to a casino. He bets $2 on a game of chance. If he loses, he plays again with $4, and with $8, $16, $32 etc, doubling his bet each time he loses. The idea is that if he wins, he wins back all the money he lost up to that point, and the odds of his losing streak continuing very deep - assuming reasonable house advantage - are pretty small.
The "fallecy" par crops up in that the casino has access to far greater resources than Bob. Bob's bet gets pretty big in a hurry (and the amount spent is culmulative, until he wins) so the odds are that for reasonable values of Bob's bankroll, the casino can outlast him and take his money in the end)
The RIAA (and Microsoft, and Hollywood studios, and similar offenders) have very deep pockets, whereas individuals like Dr Felten are close to Bob. The problem seems to be that any of these rich organizations can keep the legal battle going indefinately (spending money on lawyer's fees all the while) and eventually bleed Bob (or Dr Felten) dry.
Dr Felten, based on your recent experience
1) Do you agree with this analogy, and
2) How can you expect not to be bled dry, financially, by the process?
.
Want to learn about race cars? Read my Book
If you live in student halls, and the marks are yellow, then i think i can answer your question...
This comment does not represent the views or opinions of the user.
I've been thinking about what is fundamentally wrong with SDMI and digital watermarking, and I wonder if a technical expert would object to my characterization of exactly how the stuff works.
Technically, how well does software that verifies SDMI-watermarks fit into the metaphor of "quartering of soldiers" in terms of privacy? Can we make the argument that SDMI is an invasion of privacy because the cryptographic software extends the influence of publishers into the private domain of users' legally purchased hardware?
--- Nothing clever here: move along now...
Hello Dr. Felten,
In a slightly related topic, you were very active and instrumental in the DOJ's case against Microsoft. What is your opinion on the settlement talks and the outcome so far?
How supportive has Princeton been during this process? Have you ever felt any pressure from within not to expose the University to costly lawsuits, or have they been behind you all the way?
If by fair trial you mean a flury of bullets in the head and chest then by jobe you are damned right!
If by fair trial you mean he is able to continue breathing my air, then I would say it is not likely he is going to get a fair trial, refer to outcome stated above.
I can't get rid of this thing!
If you were in the position where you were trying to get a handle on rampant piracy of your work, what (digital) means would you pursue to secure your work?
Since your question is so loaded with industry propaganda words, Ive composed a more logical alternative:
"If you were in the position where your outdated business model was poised to become unprofitable as the market began realize that your company was a useless fat layer that provides no added value, what digital algorithm could you deploy to extend your control over distribution while preserving high profit margins?"
After reviewing the paper on the the DMSI's
watermarking techniques, I was curious about
the effect this has on the quality of the recording--especially in classical music.
Are there any audible artifacts?
(even the SLIGHTEST?)
Do the watermark techniques you've seen affect the timbre or pitch?
thanks,
Bill Klemm
Rice University
I might know what I'm talkin' about, but then again, this is Slashdot...
I just bought a set-top box to play DVDs, CDs, CD-R/Ws, CD-Rs, and MP3s.
Unfortunately, some CDs sold as music may not play on my home sound system using this device, as I understand the implications of watermarking.
Is this a true statement? The watermarking which you researched - is it equivalent to someone selling me a defective game disk? And does it distort any of the frequencies my dog and goldfish enjoy, so that we will not all enjoy the desert trance music in the same way?
-
--- Will in Seattle - What are you doing to fight the War?
It seems that watermarking-- the insertion of codes into a document without altering the document's appearance, is rather close to stenography -- the insertion of secret messages into a document without altering the document's appearance. When I was in academia, stenography wasn't researched very much (it wasn't a neat math trick like RSA), but thanks to reports that Al-Queda used stenography, there's probably going to be more research. My question is
a) How does your work relate to stenography
and
b) In what specific ways do the RIAA's efforts cause problems for stenography research?
Part of the arrangement of the copyright system is, that works that are given copyright protection (by law) are to have that copyright expire after a number of years.
Do you believe that the corporations that are using copyright laws to protect their works (which make a vast profit for them) will ever permit these works to be available in the public domain once this period of protection has expired?
and how will it be possible to enforce the general public rights at the time of expiration if they are only available in an unbreakable encrypted form?
sorry that's 2 questions, but one is intimately linked to the other.
Simon Wood.
After reading your paper on the SDMI Challenge it seems the scheme they chose (an "oracle" on a remote system) is not a real world solution. It would seem that in such an implementation file verifiers would run locally on a user's machines or at the very least the player would run locally and send samples for authentication to a remote server. In the former case a potential hacker would be able to analyse the verifier and thus have a somewhat better understanding of the scheme than you started with. In either case one could simply crack the player to always play the file without verification.
So my question is, even if the challenge had not been met, would the scheme be applicable to general use, or was it simply an interesting problem with no real use whatsoever?
Given that you've been so prominent in demonstrating the weakness of watermarking techniques thus far, how do you like his company's chances of succeeding, and has your academic interest in defeating watermarking schemes resulted in some interesting debates in the lunchroom?
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from a rigged demo
--Andy Finkel (J. Klass?)
Dr. Felten:
Some commentators would characterize the last 25 years or so as a conflict between patent holders (the manufacturers of consumer technology) and copyright holders (the producers of consumer culture). The landmark U.S. Supreme Court case, Sony v. Universal, was set up as typifying this conflict.
However, it would seem that, many years after the movie studios lost their attempt to prevent consumer VCRs from being sold, the VCR has, if anything, benefitted the motion picture industry.
Similarly, in the recent Napster case, it is worthwhile noting that after the RIAA successfully shut down Napster, their sales started to immediately decline, and have continued to decline. Many have argued that Napster provided a vastly superior method of music promotion, especially for older records, than radio, and its shutdown has resulted in music fans not finding out about records they might otherwise buy.
Do you think that this conflict is more imagined than real? In other words, is it more likely to the benefit of the cultural industries to work with technological development, rather than fight it?
my old sig used to be funny, but then slashcode ate it and now it's not funny anymore
"... in their legal attempt to stop the publication of your work"
You need to re-examine the details of the acse. The RIAA did not make a legal attempt to stop the publication of his work. They only threatened with a legal suit.
There is a HUGE difference between the two: the RIAA can (and, IMO will, be able to successfully) argue that no damages were incurred as a result of their actions, as they did not actually sue, nor did they act in an illegal matter.
We keep seeing cryptographic copy control attempted and broken. DVD-CSS, SMDI, the high bandwidth crypto stuff mentioned on slashdot recently.
Do you think it's at all possible to create a true playback control system? Perhaps using public key crypto and un-hackable hardware? Or do you believe that it is truly mathematically impossible to do
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
With todays decision in which your case was thrown out, are you planning an appeal?
The DMCA doesn't outlaw the trafficking of a security circumvention device. Only tools which circumvent access to a *copyrighted work*.
And because works in the public domain are not copyrighted, it only takes one person to use access control on a public domain work to allow Americans to release tools designed to decrypt that specific public domain work and that "happen" to also decrypt copyrighted works. (See also Charlie Chaplin DVD.)
This is why is why Congress passed the DMCA and the Sonny Bono Copyright Term Extension Act during the same week, during the same media cover (both Kosovo and Lewinsky), and using the same unaccountable method (voice vote). Disney didn't want to be the one to provide the loophole mentioned earlier by releasing a DVD of "Steamboat Willie" and "Plane Crazy," two of the first five Mickey Mouse films.
Will I retire or break 10K?
So, can CleverNickName be in your movie?
What, you don't have a movie deal? Never mind.
It appears that until you or some other legitimate researcher goes forward with publication and is sued or prosecuted for it, the courts may think you are just crying wolf to try to get a law you don't like changed. A number of researchers have stated that they now intend to stop working on analyzing content protection. If this court decision is upheld, that will prevent the DMCA from being overturned.
Are you willing to go forward with research and publication in violation of the DMCA? The only way to stop you then will be to actually use the DMCA against you, and it can finally be tested in court. Will you take this risk when so many researchers are backing away?
Watermarking on the other hand seems to rely on hiding in the least significant bits of the data. Pretty soon any images that are supplied in Jpeg2000 format or converted to it would have an automagic way of killing any watermarks present.
I think watermarking has already lost. What do you think of this?
t.
What was going through that judges head when she dismissed your case in 25 minutes? What was the scene in the courtroom?
On the flip side, do you think this makes your case for appeal stronger?
---------
Get back to me when my brain starts working.
Dr Felton,
In the cryptography community it is a well estabilshed fact that "security by obscurity of the securing process" is not only weak but also dangerous, giving a false sense of security. In this context I would like to pose two questions
1. What do you think will be the future of effective cryptography research in this context ?
2. Do you, in your personal opinion, think that organizations like SDMI are playing a double game by inviting review but preventing publication ? Do you think this unhealthy precedent will affect cryptography researchers ?
were you told your case would be thrown out fo court if you presented you findings? If not, would that advice have mattered?
Sue them for all their worth; which may not be much in some people's opinions. :-)
Since it is true that anti-piracy schemes do nothing more than incovience the end user why do you think the producers of music keep trying to invent and implement them? The real pirates laugh at the attempt to protect the music and it seems to me that a fairer pricing scheme would cut significantly into pirating efforts. I.E. If CDs cost 5 bucks it would be worth it to buy those disks that only had the one song that I wanted.
(Rhetoric for illistrative purposes)
Why does a CD still cost 15+ dollars but a tape (whose manufacturing costs are higher) costs 11?
What does that 15 dollars actually pay for?
Why is intellectual property considered worth more than tangible items (by weight how many CDs = a refigerator)?