Strong Hints On Flashing Your Xbox

customsex writes: "bunnie has written a nice one with pictures documenting his adventure flashing his bios on his xbox. check it." His page also points you to the Sony vs. Connectix case regarding reverse engineering of hardware.

Comments

Phone message:

[mESSDan]

That phone message was pretty funny, the x-box guy sounds pretty nervous/antsy. "We'd uh, like you to remove that rom image, and uh, call us when you do. Or call me and uh, we can talk about it."

One cool thing to note is that this wasn't a lawyer calling him, it was one of the x-box dev guys.

Re:Phone message:

[dattaway]

From the tone of his voice, I could imagine there were a few people standing behind him and coaching what he was going to say next.

Re:Phone message:

[Anonymous Coward]

Why? How hard is it to remeber two sentences + your own email????

Re:Phone message:

[Anonymous Coward]

Remember, this person works at Microsoft.

Re:Phone message:

[tealover]

oh, he's a millionaire. And you're not.

hahahahahahah, thank God for Microsoft!

Re:Phone message:

[telstar]

"Let me know when you've got it successfully removed?"

The guy is fucking around with the ROM of a game console ... do you really think he'd fail if he were trying to remove static content from an HTML page?

Hardware hackers only

[Alien54]

You need the following to do this: tongs-style soldering iron (to remove the existing flash device), a fine-tipped soldering iron, a microscope, flux, and some solder paste is always nice, but you can use just plain old fine solder too. If you don't have tongs-style soldering iron, you can just cut the device off the board if you have extras laying around (presumably you also have a ROM burner--I use the Needham's Electronics EMP series) or you can build your own (I built an improved version but I haven't got the docs on the web yet...)

So it looks like hardware hackers only with the appropriate tools and skills.

There was also this tidbit:

If you are looking for the FLASH ROM contents of the XBOX, you won't be able to download them even though I've extracted them. I got a call [recording edited to protect sensitive info] from Microsoft within 12 hours of posting this page regarding the binaries...

Sounds like MS is on the ball on this one, as far as protect their hardware secrets.

Re:Hardware hackers only

[derbobb]

Their hardware secrets? It's a friggin' PC...

Re:Hardware hackers only

[C0LDFusion]

c'mon, you know EVERYTHING Microsoft does is a secret. If they don't protect their secrets, people might partake in such willy-nilly activities as Free-speech! And Freedom leads to Open Source! We all know, as Microsft does, that Open Source is un-american (Uh-oh...un-american? Does that make Linux users terrorists?). MP3 is communism! Arggh! ::sarcasm:: "Software pirates are nothing compared to the anal pirates @ Microsoft" -Anon

Re:Hardware hackers only

[shd99004]

Companies keeping their secrets does not restrict free speech... if that's what you're saying it does?

Re:Hardware hackers only

[SpinyNorman]

So it looks like hardware hackers only with the appropriate tools and skills.

Only to do the initial work. Presumably you can also flash the ROM in place, which is what Microsoft would do if they need to upgrade/fix it.

All we need is one person to create an X-box game that just flashes in a Linux BIOS and can boot a linux image from CD.

Re:Hardware hackers only

[SkepTech]

Yes. And since that would permanently disable the X-box for other games, you'd better have a legal staff on retainer.

Re:Hardware hackers only

[Animats]

So it looks like hardware hackers only with the appropriate tools and skills.

It's more of a tools problem than anything else; removing surface-mount devices without damaging anything requires either a desoldering device that can heat up all the pins simultaneously, or a very fine pointed soldering iron and lots of patience. The original author is at MIT, where there are lots of people around who do hardware. That helps.

From an intellectual property standpoint, Microsoft can't object if you replace their ROM contents with something else, like a boot loader for Linux. Something like OpenBIOS.

Re:Hardware hackers only

[Toraz Chryx]

a better idea would be a switchable 'dual bios' modification..

something like a lot of Amiga users had to switch between Kickstart 1.3 and 2.0 on the A500+

Re:Hardware hackers only

[Anonymous Coward]

It's a "friggin' PC" with some secrets. Is the BIOS in your PC encrypted?

Re:Hardware hackers only

[zmooc]

Not necessarily; the BIOS-code is duplicated 4 times on the chip so if the hardware doesn't require it to be duplicated 4 times and you'd only need 75% of the space (at most), you could install your own custom BIOS and then `downgrade' to the old BIOS by copying the duplicate that's left on the chip over the custom BIOS.

And if you cannot write only a part of the BIOS but must write everything at once, then I don't think it's very hard to read the BIOS into memory and then write it to the BIOS along with your own custom BIOS. Saving the BIOS to external media should be possible as well, but I don't know exactly what the legal issues with that are; would it be an illegal copy or would it be a fair-use-backup-copy as is allowed in most countries?

Re:Hardware hackers only

[SpinyNorman]

I don't see why. You bought it - it's yours to play games on, hack or use as a door stop as you see fit. It's not like a piece of software that's really being licensed rather than sold outright.

Re:Hardware hackers only

[Anonymous Coward]

Of course it does. But its been legally defined to be an acceptable limitation, as long as the person who agrees to it was under no illegal pressure to do so.

Its not that contracts trump free speech; if the terms are too ridiculously onerous, they'd be held invalid.

Re:Hardware hackers only

[Jeff Probst]

can someone please explain to me the insighful nature of this comment?

thanks in advance

Re:Hardware hackers only

[Breace]

No only that, he certainly does not over-state the difficulty of doing this stuff. This is NOT for the electronics-hobbiest. Espcially putting on the ROM socket is not easy (without shorting out something ;o))

I have been working with the exact same device and would totally recommend an emulator. It's not cheap, but you are sure to screw up some Flash chips. I use the promice, which works well (although the software is, like with all of these emulators, braindead).

Also regarding the following quote:
My guess is if this information is true, there is a PIC 16LC63A microcontroller right next door to the FLASH...I wouldn't be surprised if the PIC microcontroller monitors the FLASH to make sure the right sequence of operations happens, and halts the processor if something is amiss.

See, if I where to design something like that, (wait a second,- I am in fact designing something like that, it's a little different though) I would do the following: Program a private key and decryption algo in the PIC, then encrypt the BIOS image using the companion public key. The PIC then decrypts the data comming out of the flash before it hits the Southbridge (I guess you could also use a symetric like 3DES algo with just a private key,- there are a couple of ways to go about it, really). One of the problems is that the code is not read sequentialy, but that would be easy to handle with some decent programming. :o)

Re:Hardware hackers only

[innocent_white_lamb]

It doesn't restrict free speech?

Interesting. I purchase a device, bring it home, look it over carefully and now I can't tell you what I saw.

What kind of "speech" is being restricted there, if not mine.

Re:Hardware hackers only

[tftp]

Presumably you can also flash the ROM in place, which is what Microsoft would do if they need to upgrade/fix it.

Not "presumably" but "for sure". Flash is soldered onto boards unprogrammed, blank. This is because you don't want to mess with the manufacturer's packaging, and it is too expensive to put anything in TSOP package into the burner anyway. Chips are put on boards by pick-and-place machines, and these machines want chips in their original packaging (tape/reel or tube).

Absolute majority of designs has some sort of in-circuit programming feature, like a connector where you can plug a programmer and burn the Flash in place.

Re:Hardware hackers only

[mkramer]

I would imagine the code *is* read sequentially. The flash image would be decompressed/decrypted in a single copy to RAM, where it would execute from.

Re:Hardware hackers only

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, protecting people from reading the boot ROM is supressing your free speech.

Re:Hardware hackers only

[Anonymous Coward]

I break into your home, rape your wife, shit on your couch, steal your TV. But if I tell the police what I did, they'llarrest me.

What kind of "speech" is being restricted there, if not mine.

Re:Hardware hackers only

[Breace]

Uhm, no. The way the BIOS is fetched from flash is pretty much depending on where the code jumps. (Believe me, I wrote the bootcode to replace the BIOS on a system that we developed,- I hate calling ours a BIOS because it doesn't contain any of the legacy crap).

When a system boots, the RAM isn't even working. It is set up by the bootcode (BIOS), which only after that setup copies itself to RAM (shadowing) and disables the actual fetching from the flash chip.

So if your BIOS code jumps (which is actually the first instruction in most any BIOS, since it starts @ FFFFFFF0 (hex)), an other part of the flash is fetched.

Re:Hardware hackers only

[Anonymous Coward]

well, you could apply encryption on the shadowed part only.

Re:Hardware hackers only

[MuMart]

Not really, I'm sure you'll be able to buy chipped xboxes in bulk from some company eventually, just like dvd players.

Re:Hardware hackers only

[C0LDFusion]

I'm fairly sure a "Agree or lose money" contract is illegal pressure. It's know as extortion, I believe, because M$ knows that by the time you've got to the licensing agreement, you HAVE to agree to it, or you lose your money, because you can't return opened product to most stores for anything except the same thing, or (in the case of CompUSA) a 15%-20% open box fee. 15%-20% on an M$ product could easily be a load of cash.

Microsoft at their best

[torqer]

The XBOX keeps "multiple versions of the BIOS around in case different games rely on features or even bugs found in previous BIOS versions."

man pretty smart of microsoft to realize their own mistakes may be required in games

Re:Microsoft at their best

[Anonymous Coward]

One of the reasons that windows is so unstable is that some bugs cannot be fixed, for it would break compatablility with some apps that use the bug as a 'feature'.

Re:Microsoft at their best

[BlacKat]

More like people taking advantage of specific hardware/bios "quirks" in thier software. I suspect they're not supposed to but some people do to "optimise" performance.

Heck, back in the Atari 8bit days, and the Atari ST days, you had to downgrade your ROM or TOS image for specific games... especially old ST games which almsot all virtually requires TOS 1.0 (buggy as hell!) or TOS 1.06.

So not necessarily a MS thing, and it is great foresight, assuming of course the X-Box can actually be told which BIOS Image to load on boot. ;)

Re:Microsoft at their best

[fatgraham]

"... in previous BIOS versions."

oh dear, why would there be previous bios', because they intend to flash these things :[

the consolepc bridge loses another step :/

Re:Microsoft at their best

[NRLax27]

They may not intend to have users flash their Xbox's, in fact I highly doubt that. What may happen is that in future shipments of the Xbox, they may have an upgraded version of the BIOS. This is not a unique Microsoft idea, as the Dreamcast did this about a year after its original release.

Re:Microsoft at their best

[Anonymous Coward]

You're absolutely right. The sad thing is that no one at MS ever had the balls to say "Fuck 'Em" to the idiots stupid enough to use a bug as a feature.

Re:Microsoft at their best

[Anonymous Coward]

Remember that Microsoft is more of an applications company than an operating systems company.

running things for different platforms

[Kevon]

wonder how hard it would be to mod a bios to let you boot up things like Office 2000 or something like that. Not that it would be particularly useful displaying to a TV. Something like geiss would be cool to run on a big screen hi-def tv, though.

Conversely, when will someone get me a program that will let me play DOA3 or other xgames on my PC? I wouldn't think that would be too hard. I think MS should even support it because if we can buy a program to let us buy and run games on our PC, they don't lose money on each console sold.

Re:running things for different platforms

[dreamquick]

Hmm X-Box games on a PC?

You will not see that for at least a year. There are a few reasons:

1) X-Box is a product - if i can play the games elsewhere why should i buy an x-box? e.g. Halo looks like it rocks, and if the only place i can play it is on an X-Box then that means i have to buy one if i want to play it.

2) X-Box is an appliance with a roadmap already laid out for it - if i remember the goal is to get it to become a home multi-media station, if you give people a reason not to buy one then you risk losing a market segment.

3) Assuming a 3rd party does this then they will be sued to hell and back by MS - this guy got a telephone message within 12 hours for releasing something only the most techie of people would have a use for. What do you think they would do if/when someone releases an emulator.

I suggest a year simply because after this people and the company will see exactly who won the console war - if anyone, if it is the x-box that won then you can release an emulator in the hopes of getting people hooked and eventually buying a console.

If the x-box didn't win then you release an emulator to keep the devolopers happy that they can still sell games.

The only problem is if it all ends in a draw between X-box and another console - in that case you want to produce the best games you can and make sure you can only play them on your machine!

Re:running things for different platforms

[John Betonschaar]

They have PC video cards with some thingie called 'TV-out' for exactly that ;-)

Re:running things for different platforms

[JWhitlock]

Conversely, when will someone get me a program that will let me play DOA3 or other xgames on my PC? I wouldn't think that would be too hard. I think MS should even support it because if we can buy a program to let us buy and run games on our PC, they don't lose money on each console sold.

This is not a bug, it's a feature.

XBox = DirectX, known version, known platform, known hardware, soon-to-be-discovered bugs, soon-to-be-discovered optimizations, etc. etc.

It's a game developer's Nirvana, to only have to code for one platform, knowing that the way it looks on your development system is exactly how it will look on the buyer's system. No unexpected incompatible drivers. No hardware conflicts. No performance bottlenecks on strange systems with cheap-ass components. No Packard-Bells.

It's like asking why the clothing industry can't make a good-looking pair of one-size-fits-all shoes.

Re:running things for different platforms

[bjohn]

"knowing that the way it looks on your development system is exactly how it will look on the buyer's system."

Actually, differences in television quality are the bane of Console Artists. Not to mention people who screw with their color settings...

Seeing your hard work displayed in-store on a monitor with way too much green makes us cry.

Re:running things for different platforms

[Anonymous Coward]

This seems likea rather naive comment, and I'm shocked that it's modded up so high.

1 and 2 only apply if you are MS obvisously, and as for point 3, reverse engeneering is completely legal, as has been shown in court for example in Sony vs. Connectix or bleem.

The fact that the X-box is essentially a PC running DirectX games means that all that is needed for "emulation" is to reverse engineer the encoding on the game disks, so you can decode the DirectX calls, the rest of the hardware protection is most likely invisible to the games themselves, or they wouldn't have worked the same on the unprotected dev kits.

Frankly I'm quite surprized there isn't an "emulator" out there already for this console.

Re:running things for different platforms

[Rick the Red]

Hmm X-Box games on a PC?

You will not see that for at least a year. There are a few reasons:

1) X-Box is a product - if i can play the games elsewhere why should i buy an x-box? e.g. Halo looks like it rocks, and if the only place i can play it is on an X-Box then that means i have to buy one if i want to play it.

Geeze, is anyone paying attention? M$ looses money on every X-Box they sell. They make it up in royalties paid them for every game sold, which is why you won't see anyone come out with a simple CD/DVD that turns an X-Box into a general purpose Linux computer -- M$ would never grant you a license (i.e. give you a key to put on your CD/DVD), even if you did pay them the royalty. Hack/steal/reverse-engineer a key and they'll come after you with the DMCA.

So, given that the real money is in games and royalties from 3rd party games, why wouldn't they be happy if you bought X-Box games to play on your PC? But I'm guessing that the required video card (with the X-Box specific nVIDIA chip) would probably cost as much as an X-Box, so unless you really hate playing games on your television, why bother?

Reverse torture

[imrdkl]

I'll sacrifice a GC for the sake of curiosity and dissolve the package with hot sulfuric

I have no idea what a GC is, but I imagine it's in alot of pain. Isn't there a more humane way of doing this?

Re:Reverse torture

[Anonymous Coward]

GC=GameCube.

I'd like to disolve that case in acid too. :)

Re:Reverse torture

[dbCooper0]

Given the sporadic appearance of some links seen in /. comments, I think the "G" stands for "Goat". Still trying to "crack" the "C"...

Re:Reverse torture

[Anonymous Coward]

http://www.goatse.cx

ROM Images

[tweakt]

How long until those ROM images start floating around the various P2P networks where they can't be simply "removed"?

Re:ROM Images

[nafmo]

The question is, do we really want to promote the Xbox by doing things like that. Why not let it silently die, as it should?

Re:ROM Images

[nusuth]

Nobody who can't extract his own would have a use for them until someone writes an Xbox emulator. Even then I guess the emulation can be done with a few device drivers running on nt, instead of writing a whole machine emulation. Bios image may be required in that case too, but probably not.

Re:ROM Images

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, because if you by an XBox and no games, microsoft has to eat a large loss - the way the console market works, the console is sold at a loss, and the manufacturer makes its money by licensing the right to produce games for the console. Thus, if there's lots of people buying X-Boxes and no games, MS start to lose money. OF course, MS aren't stupid - there's no high-street retailer who will sell you an x-box without 2 bundled games at the moment...

Re:ROM Images

[SilentChris]

Uh, some of us like to play the games.

Re:ROM Images

[nafmo]

Then pressure the game manufacturers to make them available for real devices...

Hey Bunnie

[Anonymous Coward]

Tell the microsoft idiot to go to hell. Make them put a lawyer on you to remove the ROM images. Make them spend money.

Re:Hey Bunnie

[Anonymous Coward]

It may have been cheaper for them to put one of their lawyers on the clock for this case than a developer.

They do have more legal and marketing than developers on the payroll, BTW. Lawyers in Redmond are a dime a dozen.

Re:Hey Bunnie

[bunnie]

unfortuneately, law cases often degenerate into pissing battles on who can spend more money on a lawyer. being a grad student, I'd say M$ could smack a law-firm intern on me and still defeat me in court. :-P I have a weak position for posting copyrighted binaries for *open* ;-) circulation...

Re:Hey Bunnie

[Anonymous Coward]

MS is a big company, with a big legal department. IF you don't think they have spare lawyers sitting around looking for things to do, then you're a fucking idiot.

Is it illegal overseas?

[Guysdrinkingbeer]

I understand that posting the ROM image is illegal in the states, but does that apply to Europe or Russia or even China? I know that the Xbox is not in release in those places yet but should not stop a small email attachment of the image making it's way overseas and winding up on a web site. Just wondering. Thanks.

Re:Is it illegal overseas?

[soy(storm)]

Remember the Russian dude who got arrested in California for doing his (legal) job in Russia?

Re:Is it illegal overseas?

[Guysdrinkingbeer]

I did think about him (I believe his name is Dmitry Sklyarov), but wrote that code, I am wondering if just putting it on a website overseas is illegal? Is this similar at all to the DeCSS situation?

Re:Is it illegal overseas?

[lordkuri]

take a look here for the info on the case --> http://www.freesklyarov.org/

Re:Is it illegal overseas?

[Anonymous Coward]

The obvious problem with that, is that the person who does the mailing, is still going to be committing copyright infringement.

The only way to get what you want w/out significant risk is to have a citizen of a copyright-rejecting country (e.g. a chinese national) buy an xbox, post the image, and never leave his country for the rest of his life.

Re:Is it illegal overseas?

[Anonymous Coward]

I am in China now, drop me a copy and I will post it up on a website. ;P

icelander111@hotmail.com

Re:Is it illegal overseas?

[Anonymous Coward]

Its illegal in any country that subscribes to WIPO. That said, China and Russia will pay no attention to the rules in WIPO with regard to piracy regardless of whether or not they are part of WIPO.

Re:Is it illegal overseas?

[Anonymous Coward]

me too

jeff@aol.com

Doesn't MS lose money on every Xbox?

[Anonymous Coward]

And make money on every game to make up for it?

So, let's all buy an Xbox, convert it to running Linux, and come up with a cool open source development environment to build our own games.

We can destroy MS and get a good gaming console out of it at the same time. :)

I would also love to make a C64 emulator CDROM with about 500 old games and a nice menuing system to select which games to play, and make the save and load work from all the games as well.

A system like the X-box would be great for that.

Re:Doesn't MS lose money on every Xbox?

[PW2]

We can destroy MS and get a good gaming console out of it at the same time.

Don't say "We"; I am not in your little "gotta destroy MS" club. I'm just here to read some tech news/etc;

Re:Doesn't MS lose money on every Xbox?

[pacc]

"a C64 emulator"

Underacheiver, you should get a $50 Dreamcast instead. But an N64 emulator would make use of some bit of the Xbox.

Demand SID ringtones in your next mobile phone!

Re:Doesn't MS lose money on every Xbox?

[jsarek]

Wake up. Microsoft loses money when an XBox is NOT SOLD... when you buy an XBox you help them recover all or part of their investment. When you buy XBox games you give microsoft a huge profit.

Come on, you'd think Slashdot type geeks would be able to do the math... Xbox costs $400 to make(that's the rumor) so they lose 100 on each sale. But they lose FOUR hundred if NO ONE buys it. lol.

John Sarek.

Re:Doesn't MS lose money on every Xbox?

[CMiYC]

All of the consoles sold now are loss leaders. With the cost of development and manufacturing, its a must for set-top boxes. Its nothing new.

I wish there were enough people to buy an X-Box and never buy even one game for it. Of course, I think to kill of the X-Box (or any console for that matter) it would take as many people who already are buying one. I doubt that many people would be willing to pay whatever it costs for one.

As a side note... I got a dreamcast with NesterDC. It has something like 1,000 NES ROMs. Very fun to play some of those old games again. But then, I only paid $50 for the dreamcast....

Re:Doesn't MS lose money on every Xbox?

[NotAnotherReboot]

The percentage of people buying xbox's and reverse engineering them would be extremely small. Those with the knowledge to even do it is extremely small; I'll admit that I probably couldn't do this. There are always those people who buy a console and only get 1 or 2 games, and this would just add a few more doing relatively the same thing.

Re:Doesn't MS lose money on every Xbox?

[Matey-O]

Naw, Then it's just a writeoff. :)

Re:Doesn't MS lose money on every Xbox?

[garcia]

hey not a problem! How bout I sell you my C128D for $199 and you can run them from disk. It will save you $100. That should at least make up for the lack of a CD w/500 games.

Re:Doesn't MS lose money on every Xbox?

[Killer_Rabbit]

If you want to kill the Xbox instead of buying one and never getting one game... take your $300 and pick up a GameCube with Super Smash Brothers and Pikmin.

Re:Doesn't MS lose money on every Xbox?

[2b]

Sort of, but at most places you can only buy an Xbox as part of a bundle that includes a few games, so they're probably close to break-even on the initial sale.

Re:Doesn't MS lose money on every Xbox?

[wadetemp]

Yeah, but they never make it if no one buys it, so they don't lose anything. If 40,000 Linux h4x0r2 buy an XBox just to install Linux and not to play games, MS loses 400,000 on the deal. But if those 40,000 people DON'T buy XBoxes, that doesn't mean MS is going to queue up 40,000 XBoxes and just let them sit on the shelves. I'm willing to bet they wouldn't even queue up 10,000.... which would be the break-even point in loss. Demand drives supply.

Re:Doesn't MS lose money on every Xbox?

[wadetemp]

400,000
Oops, multiply that by 10 more. 400,000.

Re:Doesn't MS lose money on every Xbox?

[wadetemp]

New keyboard... that's my pitiful excuse. 4,000,000. Oh, and I math and I don't get along. :)

Re:Doesn't MS lose money on every Xbox?

[Anonymous Coward]

are you kidding? I played emulated n64 games on my PII-333 with a voodoo2. An x-box could certainly handle it, with enough CPU left over to simultaenously emulate a PSX and a SNES.

Re:Doesn't MS lose money on every Xbox?

[Anonymous Coward]

You're not we.

Re:Doesn't MS lose money on every Xbox?

[Jace of Fuse!]

are you kidding? I played emulated n64 games on my PII-333 with a voodoo2. An x-box could certainly handle it, with enough CPU left over to simultaenously emulate a PSX and a SNES.

Actually, the PC isn't yet powerful enough to emulate a Nintendo 64. The emulations that are out are all very high level, and they simply "wrap" the N64 software to PC devices. Any attempt to emulate the Reality Engine or the Mips processor in the N64 with current PC hardware would be very, very, VERY slow. That's why N64 emulation is fairly splotchy. Games that use the N64's APIs very strictly run very well. Games that hack the hardware faily miserably.

Fortunately for emulation-fans, a lot of N64 games were very API dependant.

Re:Doesn't MS lose money on every Xbox?

[kirkb]

Nice menuing system? Real men use LOAD "$",8

Re:Doesn't MS lose money on every Xbox?

[Anonymous Coward]

you think they build them to order?

Re:Doesn't MS lose money on every Xbox?

[Jus'n]

If you want to kill the Xbox instead of buying one and never getting one game... take your $300 and pick up a GameCube with Super Smash Brothers and Pikmin.

But then you don't have a relatively sweet piece of portable PC hardware, just BEGGING to become a truly cool car-mounted DVD/CD/MP3 player, GPS navigator, and all-around digital assistant. For $300. I think that's about the coolest use for an Xbox there is -- screw that Tribes-wannabe "Halo" game... think mobile computing! Of course, I suppose you could hack a GameCube into a similar state, but you'd need a lot more custom hardware and software, methinks (since it's not already PC-based). Plus, you'd be screwing Nintendo out of software royalties. Nintendo was, after all, a surrogate mother for many of us. You don't want to screw our mother like that -- it's bad karma. Microsoft, on the other hand, is our surrogate obnoxious rich uncle who thinks he owns the world and that your nose should be up his @$$ 24x7. Screwing him is GOOD karma. All in all, buying an Xbox to hack, and never buying any Xbox games is definitely good for the soul.

Flashing your XBox?

[Anonymous Coward]

Seems like he's replacing his bios more than flashing the existing one.

Am I wrong, or is slashdot not fully understanding this article?

Re:Flashing your XBox?

[Bozar]

Well this bios might be EPROM which means that you can only reset it when using an ultraviolet light. Then again i dont have an xbox and i'm not a hardware hacker. The other thing is, if it really is flash bios (EEPROM) then convicing the xbox to flash its own bios chip might be impossible ATM, so you could take it out and do it elsewhere (which he did) :D

Re: I agree

[Anonymous Coward]

>I Agree!!

Fair enough, AC agrees..
thank you for imparting such wonderfull knowledge

MS guys.

[ImaLamer]

"I forget his name, but he was important--I do recall he claimed to help define the DHCP spec :-P"

Is this a good or bad thing? I do imagine though any old MS guy saying windows was his idea [maybe they worked at xerox?]

"Flashing" an XBOX?

[bnitsua]

Do we really need to post a story everytime some guy plays Halo naked in front of his television?

Re:"Flashing" an XBOX?

[r1_unknown]

Hopefully not - the jpegs really make me nauseous, but they are better than the Jello Instant Pudding webcam guy....

A possible step forward in Xbox emulation?

[xiangpeng]

I was just wondering that if the dumping of the rom will actually help in the emulation of the XBox, since everyone can now examine the bios. Most instructions can be emulated easily as they are similar to PC instructions, UMA can be examined closely too :)

Re:A possible step forward in Xbox emulation?

[Anonymous Coward]

Xbox is actually a PC. Instructions are not similar, they are identical.

Re:A possible step forward in Xbox emulation?

[SpinyNorman]

The benefit of disassembling the ROM will be to help figure out the hardware and to therefore be able to replace it with a Linux BIOS.

Erm, no.

[Anonymous Coward]

"...documenting his adventure flashing his bios..."

The story is about his adventure *removing* his bios. It's interesting - you might want to read it.

Re:Erm, no.

[Anonymous Coward]

you might want to read it yourself.
He states in the article that he removed the bios. & then reflashed it so that it held only one copy of the bios image instead of the 4 it previously heald...

Yeah, he didnt change the image to do anything cool but YES he did flash it & it worked.

Re:Erm, no.

[Bozar]

he did flash the bios. He took an image of it and re-wrote it over itself (when he thought he had the wrong image, i dont understand why he would want to destroy the original this way but whatever) and then re-inserted it. That's flashing the bios. He removed it to flash it cuz asking the XBox to flash its bios nicely seems ineffective... Its a nice story, you might want to read it.

Re:Erm, no.

[Anonymous Coward]

The page is about *removing* the bios.

Ya boo.

Long-term benefit

[smittyoneeach]

Recall reading the Wired article about the XBox, where they mention that its initial $300 dollar price will be driven down to around $100 as soon as possible.
Sorry about the low end of the computer market, but it'll be cool when you can drop a grand, pick up a ten-pack of them, and construct your Much-Ballyhooed Beowulf Cluster (MBBC).
Maybe one day /. itself could run on such an installation. Feel the irony.

Re:Long-term benefit

[Rareul]

I believe the business model is more reflective of the Gillette model,
i.e., give away razors, sell and make money on razor blades.
They intend to make money on the licensing and sale of the games on
their proprietary, enabling hardware.
?sp

Re:Long-term benefit

[BJH]

As has every other home videogame manufacturer since Nintendo lost its deathgrip on the market...

Re:Long-term benefit

[smittyoneeach]

Furthermore, as the XBox runs under a Mr. Softy OS, featuring DirectX, game vendors target the desktop and console markets with a single code base.

Slap a keyboard on this thing, and Mr. Softy has done what all of the Internet appliance people could not; put a cheap email computer in every house.

As usual, regardless of your opinion of the technical merits of any Mr. Softy's products, he sure knows how to go after a market.

The icing on the cake is that Mr. Softy has no sunk costs in the manufacturing of XBoxen; it's all outsourced, as detailed in the aforelinked Wired article.

Smart, smart, smart. But can you get one at S-Mart?

Re:Long-term benefit

[horster]

I can't believe they'll be able to do this - they are already losing at least $100 per box. The parts that are in the xbox, while they might be old in a year or two will still cost money.
Example - ever need just a 2 gig harddrive? Was it 1/5 the cost of a ten giger?
Or ever try to buy a pentium?

Of course ms will have access that we don't but I don't see the parts and supplies for this thing coming down to $200.

Re:Long-term benefit

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't see the parts and supplies for this thing coming down to $200.

640k is enough memory for everyone.
There's a total world market for 5 computers

The point?

[SilentChris]

I'm not entirely sure I see the point of this exercise. Bear with me. I can see upgrading the drive cables or trying to solder on extra memory for performance reasons (as some people have done), but flashing the BIOS of the XBox seems to be a pointless exercise. First, you need to have pretty strong hardware knowledge -- it's not something that's going to be "mod chipped" in the future. Secondly, and more important, apparently the BIOS is heavily encrypted and/or compressed, so (if Microsoft used its noodle) it will be extremely difficult to retrieve.

As opposed to hacking an XBox to use Linux (which I agree is a noble pursuit, if not flawed), why not find a cost-effective way to make a "LBox" out of cheap hardware. Put a penguin on the cover or something.

Me, personally, I bought my XBox for playing games and DVDs, like most people. I love fucking around with hardware myself, but this thing is a toy to be played with and enjoyed for me, not a job.

Re:The point?

[Captain Morgan]

Even if you can't read the bios flash part it is important in understanding how the device starts up. Chances are that if you can get your own executable onto the box you should be able to do whatever you choose and install some sort of interface that will allow for continued hacking/exploring. Knowing whats in the bios might also allow for changing the harddrive out, or having the ability to use the other 64MB ram footprint on the pcb.

Re:The point?

[SpinyNorman]

You could never make an "L-box" as cheap as the X-box because the beauty of it is that it's subsidized hardware! Every X-box subverted to another purpose not only deprives Microsoft of razor-blade revenue, but actually causes them to lose money!

If X-box can be made to run Linux, then it would be an excellent base for an open source Tivo!

Re:The point?

[Anonymous Coward]

You apparently don't understad the hardware issues at all, or have a desire to learn. I serriously doubt that, if the BIOS is encrypted/compressed that it is heavily so/hard to decode. There aren't alot of crypto devices implemented in hardware that are difficult to circumvent if you have physical access to it. If nothing else, you could remove the crypto crap, and install a regullarly executable BIOS in the flash ROM. May not play XBOX games after being hacked, but as you say(and sooooo many others as well), might make a good MAME/SNES/*insert fav old console here* arcade box. This means that someone must do it, now doesn't it?

Re:The point?

[SilentChris]

"May not play XBOX games after being hacked, but as you say(and sooooo many others as well), might make a good MAME/SNES/*insert fav old console here* arcade box. This means that someone must do it, now doesn't it?"

Why the fuck would I ruin my XBox to make it into a SNES emulator? I can either a) purchase a used SNES for change or b) get an emulator for my PC, which doesn't ruin it's potential after you use it.

Re:The point?

[kinkie]

Yes and not.
Let's admit that Microsoft sells there at a loss, so yes, you're banking that money.
However, if they sell 1 million consoles, it doesn't matter whether 100k of those are converted into L-boxes, they still sold 1 million, and that is what they'll use to lure the game developers to their platform, promising bigger markets.
This is not to say you shouldn't do it :)

Re:The point?

[Anonymous Coward]

Why the fuck would I ruin my XBox to make it into a SNES emulator? I can either a) purchase a used SNES for change or b) get an emulator for my PC, which doesn't ruin it's potential after you use it.

Maybe you want to reduce the number of consoles lying around next to the TV? And maybe you want to play SNES games on a TV instead of a computer? Jeesus - how the fuck did you get a score of five for your earlier, pathetic, post!?

Re:The point?

[tealover]

Maybe because he's not a sniveling geek like you. Hahaha, play SNES on a tv instead of a computer.....get a fucking SNES then, you stupid faggot.

Re:The point?

[twoflower]

If X-box can be made to run Linux, then it would be an excellent base for an open source Tivo!

Do you even understand what you need to do what Tivo does? There's no MPEG2 realtime encoder chip in the Xbox, and therefore it can't do what Tivo does.

Twoflower

Re:The point?

[AaronStJ]

I'm not entirely sure I see the point of this exercise. Bear with me. I can see upgrading the drive cables or trying to solder on extra memory for performance reasons (as some people have done), but flashing the BIOS of the XBox seems to be a pointless exercise.

Why hack up an interesting bit of hardware/software? I'm shocked a Slashdot reader even has to ask! Because it's fun to do, of course. Fiddling around and figuring out new and intersting systems is what hacking's all about. I imagine there's a lot to be learned about the system's internals by looking at the BIOS ROM. And no end of the cool hacks you can do by providing a non-standard BIOS image. Clear wall cheats, for example (if you're into that sort of thing), or make it possible to burn your own programs and run 'em (not illegally, of course), the list could go on and on, really.

Me, personally, I bought my XBox for playing games and DVDs, like most people. I love fucking around with hardware myself, but this thing is a toy to be played with and enjoyed for me, not a job.

Well, no one's forcing you to hack your XBox. Play all the games and DVDs you want, and if someone else wants to work on cool hacks, let 'em.

Re:The point?

[SpinyNorman]

Tivo only needs hardware encode because they wanted to keep cost down by using a cheap embedded controller - a 66MHz PPC variant.

The X-Box has a PIII 700MHz which can VERY comfortably handle real-time software compression using mp1e for MPEG-1. If there was a problem with simultaneous encode and decode, then there's always the option of doing a lightweight real-time encode and recompressing to save space in the background.

Re:The point?

[twoflower]

Sorry, MPEG-1 isn't good enough -- the quality is low, and the resulting video stream is fairly high-bandwidth -- about 1.2Mbps for quality no better than medium-quality VHS. To do what Tivo does, in a reasonable amount of disk space, you need MPEG-2 -- and you can't do that in software on a 733MHz Celeron.

Not to mention the simultaneous encoding _and_ decoding necessary to "pause" live TV and then continue playing. You're going to need hardware assistance.

Twoflower

Re:The point?

[zonker]

Gee... The last time someone made a linux game console it ended badly... remember the indrema?

Re:The point?

[SpinyNorman]

The only difference between MPEG-1/2/4 is how motion is encoded. If you capture to I-frame only MPEG-1 (which is what mp1e does), then you have not lost any information, and can recompress when the machine is not recording to save disk space. The CPU usage is VERY low because you're not doing any motion estimation.

Re:The point?

[geekoid]

Why does a man climb a mountain?

Could Bios be replaced with LinuxBios

[bug1]

If the xbox BIOS was replaced with LinuxBIOS then that shouldnt that bypass any other protection they put in software.

linuxBIOS project http://www.acl.lanl.gov/linuxbios/

Re:Could Bios be replaced with LinuxBios

[Captain Morgan]

Assuming of course that they load the bios data into memory and then execute this code to unencrypt itself. They might have specific hardware built into a chip on the board that is performing this encryption/decryption so if you wanted to put LinuxBIOS on the board you would have to encrypt it using the same mechanism they do, and then put it in the flash part. Also, since they might not be using a standard chipset it is questionable as to whether a straight PC bios will even work on the xbox, something xbox specific would more than likely have to be written and would require a bit more knowledge about the chipset and other components.

Re:Could Bios be replaced with LinuxBios

[Anonymous Coward]

$5 says this thing is running Linux by next year.

Why is it...

[Anonymous Coward]

...every friggin expert on here who knows "how the console market works" forgets to mention that the more consoles Microsoft sells, the more they can use that number as a selling point for licensing games? Duh, dumbass...

Sure, you can hack an X-box

[multiplexo]

But I'm waiting for someone to hack the new Maytag Neptune washer and dryers, the ones with the 4" plasma touch screen. I want one that will run Linux and play DVDs while I'm doing my laundry. Or actually if I had the washer and dryer I could have one running Linux and the other serving as a game/DVD console, and I could wash my clothes.

Re:Sure, you can hack an X-box

[MisterBlister]

You are missing the best use, display of porn!! Imagine being able to thrust your front-side into an unbalanced wash load while displaying porn on the plasma screen!! An end to wrist pain for chronic wankers like myself!!!

Re:The point? Emulation!

[reachinmark]

but flashing the BIOS of the XBox seems to be a pointless exercise.

Not that it is entirely legal, but since the XBox is pentium based, emulation should be a lot easier than for the PS2 and GameCube. And, of course, the BIOS would be somewhat essential for a project like that.

The Russian bloke broke no laws

[DABANSHEE]

He was in Russia when he was alleged to have broken the law.

The only problem is the US (plus France, Belgium, Israel & a number of other countries) hve a bad habit of enforcing their laws extraterritorily

IE, outside of their juristiction, like putting out warrents for Columbian & Burmese drug smugglers who have never been within US juristiction (IE the US, or within the US 12 mile line or on a US registed plane or ship in international waters) & thus have never been legally obliged to comply with US laws.

Its a similar case with that Russian coder, even though he was arrested while visiting the US, he was charged for actions taken while he was in Russia, so it was impossible for him to break US laws.

Traditionally there's only 2 charges that can be enforced extra-territorily, but only on ones own citizens - Piracy on the high seas & treason.

Not that it'l make any differances, prosecutors & judges never skip a chance of setting precedents that increase their juristiction.

Mind you it shows how hypocritical the US & Israel are for complaining about Sharon (an Israeli) being indicted in a Belgium court for war crimes that occured in Lebanon.

Because it was Israel & the US that set precedents that led to that Belgium law - look at Israel prosecuting a German for what happened in Germany.

Re:The Russian bloke broke no laws

[John_Booty]

The only problem is the US (plus France, Belgium, Israel & a number of other countries) hve a bad habit of enforcing their laws extraterritorily

funny, when I first read this I thought it said "extraterrestially", not "extraterritorily". although, the former wouldn't suprise me either.

Re:The Russian bloke broke no laws

[ignavus]

Traditionally there's only 2 charges that can be enforced extra-territorily, but only on ones own citizens - Piracy on the high seas & treason.

I thought polygamy overseas was illegal as well. You can't just go overseas, marry 4 wives and claim it is legal in the country you went to.

Of course IANAL - why would lawyers be reading Slashdot?

Re:Post the ROM to /.

[Anonymous Coward]

Posting the ROM image to slashdot would be a good idea, but you would be modded down -1, Troll

No need to emulate, the Xbox is a X86 PC

[DABANSHEE]

The only differance between the Nvidia NForce Xbox chipset & the new Nvidia K7 PC mainboard chipset is that Xbox version is designed for the GTL+ bus, while the K7 PC version is designed for the EV6 bus, other than that they are exactly the same.

Consequently once one has worked out how to master/hack the Xbox BIOS & the propietry MS Xbox file system (to load a PC OS compatible FS), there's no reason why one couldn't load any X86 PC OS on it (the chipset drivers for both versions of the NForce are, or should be the same).

Now if your talking about playing XBox games on a PC, why would you want to? MS is selling them so cheap that they are losing $100 a pop on them, so the big saving would be in utilising the Xbox as a PC, rather than the other way arround.

Maybe you could load Linux on & turn the Xbox into a xbox.

Man!

[DelyApple]

Man, can't you people make it so it just brings up the porn when I poke the buttons?
Wha?
Oh! I'm sorry, I thought this was a thread on the XXX-Box. I saw flashing... :(

Not secrets, copyrights

[Anonymous Coward]

He could reverse engineer the contents of the flash and tell us what it does and addresses of routines etc etc without any trouble whatsoever. Its quite reasonable that he cant spread a 1:1 copy, but its no secret.

It might be compressed/encrypted

[Anonymous Coward]

Then again it might not be ... they could have encrypted it only if NVIDIA build a decryption engine into their motherboard chipset especially for the purpose of reading from the bios address range. That would only by them a little, you could still snoop the processor bus.

Now were getting somewhere...

[Anonymous Coward]

Too bad he removed the bin. The combination of that (decrypted) and the Dashboard application off of the hard disk and the genie is out.

Bullshit

[Anonymous Coward]

Why does /. have people posting at standard scores >1. Its not like you can see any correlation between quality and the initial score ... quite the opposite really, karma whores dont make very good posters they just know how to get points. Which gets them into trouble when like now they try to contribute something intelligent to a real discussion.

Anyway you are dead wrong, NVIDIA left heaps of features off the X-Box graphics part of the chipset which are essential for backwards compatibility on the PC ... this bought them some of the space to make room for GeForce3 class hardware with extra vertex shaders etc etc. Although Im pretty sure that even given that the chip is still a whole lot more complex in the X-Box. Their PC chipsets are only weak cousins of the X-Box one.

Re:Post the ROM to /.

[doob]

Did anyone get to the site and download the ROM image before it was removed? If so, what was the filename so I can go look it up on $P2PNETWORK?

The real ubergeeks work at M$ !!!

[Tha_Zanthrax]

How does MicroSoft find out about these sites before /. does?
I think they are paying some guys to just surf the web looking for stuff that can stuff people from using M$ products.
Man, surf the web all day AND get paid... I'd take that job !

Congrats to Microsoft!

[Ndr_Amigo]

I know it's an odd thing to say, but I would like to congratulate Microsoft on (unusually!) actually being half-decent. Listening to the phonecall, whether he was coached or not, I would congradulate Mr. Thompson on not being a smeghead and actually NICELY asking for the image to be removed.. without threatening legal action over some obscure EULA clause for looking at the motherboard or something :)

Re:Congrats to Microsoft!

[Fat Casper]

You need to look at where MS was going with being nice. If being nice removes the image, fine. If it doesn't, being able to tell the judge "we asked him very politely" will carry a lot of weight. That's something that they would need, considering that any law he might have been breaking would be a very flimsy one that would only apply to him if the court wre already convinced that he was a nasty bad hacker.

Microsoft wasn't being nice so much as being intelligent. It's a shame they don't put the formidable powers they do have into making good products. If they did, I wouldn't have had to learn half of the computer stuff I know.

Re:Congrats to Microsoft!

[SkOink]

I don't know if I'd say they were being nice so much as they were worried. If they pissed the guy off, I've got a hunch that copies of the ROM would begin to 'appear' all across the internet.

Re:Congrats to Microsoft!

[jareds]

That's something that they would need, considering that any law he might have been breaking would be a very flimsy one that would only apply to him if the court wre already convinced that he was a nasty bad hacker.

Flimsy?! He posted the ROM image, which is copyrighted, on his web site. Whatever you may think of IP, that's clearly not a flimsy legal case. He may as well have posted a Windows XP ISO on his site while he was at it.

Re:Congrats to Microsoft!

[astrotek]

From my position posting a bois from the xbox on the internet is just like offering warez. The bios is a peice of software that microsoft is selling as a part of the xbox and posting it on the net for no paying customers is a crime.

I dont understand why you would congratulate MS for not prosecuting. This is slashdot, we get bent out of shape if someone misuses GPLd code.

Game Ratio important

[bstadil]

This is only partly true. There was a press release from Nintendo the other day and it spend some time talking about the 1.9 Games to Console ratio they obtained. A few days later MS announced that they had the best ratio ever recorded for an initial concole launch of 2.4.
This number is important and the game developers are not fools. They have been in this arean much longer than MS and knows the deal. Second the games sold will be analysed endlessly by all kinds of parameters like age, gender etc, so a significant conversion rate to Linux will have an impact.

Re:Game Ratio important

[DrEldarion]

That ratio is mostly due to the fact that basically everywhere FORCED you to bundle games with the system.

-- Dr. Eldarion --

Re:Game Ratio important

[Anonymous Coward]

a significant conversion rate to Linux will have an impact

Which you wouldn't get if the LBox conversion removed the ability to play XBox games.

People who do this will want to have their cake and eat it too. When MS ships the next killer game, they aren't going to want to say "Well, who cares because I'd rather have a crappy PC that runs Linux!" -- they're going to run out and buy the game.

Re:Game Ratio important

[Exatron]

Microsoft sales figures aren't entirely accurate according to this article in the Chicago Sun-Times.

Re:Game Ratio important

[nathanh]

There was a press release from Nintendo the other day and it spend some time talking about the 1.9 Games to Console ratio they obtained. A few days later MS announced that they had the best ratio ever recorded for an initial concole launch of 2.4.

Many stores were not selling the X-Box standalone. You had to buy the X-Box plus 2 or 3 games as part of a bundle. There is rumor that this bundling was an edict by Microsoft before a store was allowed to sell the X-Box. WIRED ran an article discussing how EB, ToysRUs and Gamestop were doing nothing but bundles, much to the annoyance of their customers who didn't necessarily want all the games in a particular bundle.

This number is important and the game developers are not fools. They have been in this arean much longer than MS and knows the deal.

It strongly looks like MS knew the deal and has been loading the deck to give themselves a better hand. Golden Rule #1: Never Let Microsoft Deal The Cards.

Harddrive

[omega9]

This gets on topic towards the end:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I understand that the HDs in the Xbox are standard IDE drives. I've also read that people have attempted to chain the drives into their PC's IDE loop and mount them, but have been unable to because of a prop filesystem. Seeing as how the drives are 8-10 GB, what if you were to dd if=/dev/xbox of=/spare/drive bs=1024 to a spare drive >10GB (to hold the info). This way you don't damage your Xbox drive and you have a copy of it to play with. The reason?

I have worked with proprietary systems in the past that were (more or less) similar to the Xbox, in that they used standard PC hardware and theory but needed to be secure from hardware "hack" attempts. Microsoft has had the tools to do something similar for a while. Reports state the Xbox is using a W2K kernel. The most associated filesystem with W2K is NTFS. With NTFS it's possible to create an encrypted filesystem. Now, if you wanted to handle the de/crypt as fast as possible where would you put it? In hardware.

Take it a step further. Instead of adding extra de/crypt hardware to the mainboard why not consolidate a little bit more and take it straight to the I/O, that is the BIOS. Perhaps the HD is using an encrypted filesystem that is being handled directly by the BIOS. This would make some sense, since a software part could be broken all to easy. This also protects all components equally. Replace the BIOS and you can't read the HD, replace the HD but the BIOS can't read it (which has been proven).

I venture that if you were to hammer out the details of the filesystem it would provide insight into the working of the BIOS. The sour part of this is that we already know it can be done (to some extent) because we have seen shots of MAME running on Xbox hardware. Though, perhaps that was under different rules since it was an SDK kit.

Re:Harddrive

[horster]

I don't think MS would be dumb enough to take a performance hit on encryption/decryption, not in a high perf game box.

Re:Harddrive

[Anonymous Coward]

A stream cipher would only take negligible room in the X-Box chipset, the data speeds from hard-drives are far from challenging anymore ... they are doing this stuff at wirespeed on 10+ Gb/s connections nowaday's.

Re:Harddrive

[omega9]

I agree that there's a performance hit that can't be ignored when using a software de/crypt platform, but if they were to use such a filesystem then the most effecient way to do it is to store the routines in hardware.

Besides that point, even if they were to use a software de/crypt filesystem I don't believe it would be that big-o-deal. Yes, it would be slower than you're used to in your PC, but in the console world even an encrypted HD will likely outperform reading the DVD. And don't forget that most of the I/O is directed at the DVD drive, the HD only being accessed for special needs. If it's going to be used for anything large (say DivX, MP3), it will most likely be because it's been hacked. And at that point we'll just use whatever suits us :).

Re:Harddrive

[Anonymous Coward]

if you wanted to handle the de/crypt as fast as possible where would you put it? In hardware.

Encrypt/decrypt speed to the harddrive is a total nonissue for this system. The PIII has more than enough horsepower to do this itself. There's absolutely no way there's a crypto chip on the board.

On the BIOS is more possible, but since Windows no longer goes to the bios except as a last resort, that's probably not it. Except in the sense that there's a kernel image burned there, but that's fairly trivial. Has anyone tried just XORing with "skcus2sp"?

XBOX MAME

[timbong]

Someone already made an XBOX MAME emulator that supposedly runs at 60fps. However he cant release it because of legal restrictions and it only works on the developer xboxes now. His website is http://www.otakunozoku.com/xbox/

Re:XBOX MAME

[sui]

I know otaku and this guy is a big name in the homebrew developer group. He's also done profesional projects and many other homebrew projects for other consoles.

xbox.bin

[L3WKW4RM]

Download the xbox.bin linked at the very top of his page...

lukewarm@mr-causey:~ > cat xbox.bin
gamecube rulez... ;-)

This encryption is going to take a long time to crack!

Remeber Mame on the xbox?

[Technosteve!]

i saw an article here a while ago with someone with a dev. box getting mame to run on the xbox. so when can we see mame running on our own xbox? another point, it would be intresting if MS buy snk assets, and introduce the snk games not as an console conversion of the games from neo geo but to write their own version of mame and bring an "Arcade Perfect" version of your favirite snk game. but i doubt MS can make any money off this venture but I WANT MY MAME ON someone else's XBOX. me and lunch box here are going to kick your ass.

NOT different versions of the BIOS

[Namarrgon]

No, "there are in fact four identical 256k copies of the ROM image in the 1 MB flash ROM." - not multiple different versions of the BIOS.

It's entirely likely MS may revise the BIOS at a later stage, for fixing bugs - if it turns out to be necessary. All console makers do. So long as you don't change the external functionality at all, that's fine.

But what the article was saying is that this is a reasonable move by MS, to increase robustness in the possible case of field flash rom upgrades, or even if multiple versions of the BIOS might be required. I'm sure MS are very aware that the latter case is not a desirable one.

Come to that, I doubt that "flash ugrades in the field" are even possible, let alone planned, or the author probably wouldn't have had to replace the ROM at all. It'd be a major security hole, if you could do that! :-)

Re:NOT different versions of the BIOS

[Erasmus Darwin]

"Come to that, I doubt that "flash ugrades in the field" are even possible, let alone planned, or the author probably wouldn't have had to replace the ROM at all."

That's not necessarily so. For example, the X-box could be set up to only accept cryptographically signed ROM upgrades that're stored on an authorized CD.

There're two methods I can think of to crack such a system. The first is to look at an authorized, MS-released ROM upgrade and try to reverse engineer it. Since MS hasn't released one yet, this obviously isn't an option right now. The second is to reverse engineer the existing ROM. The leads to a chicken-and-egg problem: You can't reflash the ROM to reverse engineer it until you've already reverse engineered it.

So in the future, it's entirely possible that people will be able to provide software that will do the ROM dump on a still sealed X-box. But for now, they have to do things the hard way.

... um

[fldvm]

I hope this guy did not buy his xbox from CompUSA because I think he may have voided his
$30 two-year warranty

different from linuxs' versionsed .so system?

[Anonymous Coward]

no, i think not.
yr interface changes depending on which color
RMS' urine was that morning, and your
libraries have lots of bugs and crap in them anyways.

backwards comptability means keeping copies of old shit around.

Harddrive is ATA password protected

[Namarrgon]

That's not so easy. The HD is locked by a password, as provided for by the ATA spec. It's not the filesystem that's the difficulty.

What you can do is power the HD with a cable from a PC, turn on the PC then the Xbox, wait till the Xbox firmware unlocks the drive, does what it has to do, then goes idle.

Then you turn off the Xbox (drive stays powered), carefully unplug the IDE cable & attach it to your PC's IDE controller instead. Rescan the drives & you should see it AND be able to read from it. Some info here, and elsewhere on those forums.

Reportedly, the filesystem is a variant on the good old FAT, and not even encrypted. There are some differences, but apparently nothing too challenging (but it won't mount as an ordinary FAT partition, of course).

Executables are signed, and modifying the exe invalidates the signature, so that won't be easy to get around. Perhaps replacing the BIOS would help, but you'd want to find out the HD password first...

And yes, the MAME port was done on an SDK kit, which is much more open of course).

Re:Harddrive is ATA password protected

[Anonymous Coward]

but you'd want to find out the HD password first..

Two words:

logic analyzer (and an afternoon)

Re:Harddrive is ATA password protected

[Anonymous Coward]

Surely there's some way to watch an IDE bus from another computer. See what xbox says to the fake drive. Tell the real drive that. See what the drive says. Tell the xbox that. Can't be that hard if the hardware exists.

Re:Harddrive is ATA password protected

[Cryptnotic]

You don't even need an expensive logic analyzer.
You could do it with one of those cool 16 channel HP LogicWave's.

Cryptnotic

The Catch

[Anonymous Coward]

You would be working for Microsoft. Everybody would hate you. You would be a pariah and your old friends would abandon you, girls would laugh at you and your mother would stop inviting you over for thanksgiving and christmas. So, yeah, it's easy money, but socially lower than a drug dealing, $cientologist child-pornographer who spams and sells Amway part-time.

Good for people who don't need society. Bad otherwise.

Re:The Catch

[Anonymous Coward]

friends, girls ? what are you talking about?

Linux Distros for XBox?

[Anonymous Coward]

Wouldn't it be funny to see Linux distros for XBox? I bet it would be a good machine for a beowulf cluster.

And the best part: since MS is loosing money with the XBox, it's kinda like Bill Gates paying part of the bill... He he.

If I may explain..

[NotTheAntiChrist]

There is a very good reason to remove the TSOP in this fashion.

However let me note, if you don't have the soldering skills, you could contact hho@century-technology.com who would be able to do this for you for around $175. (I'm aiming this email for those who are *serious* about getting linux on the xbox)

Once it is off, you can begin burning LinuxBIOS images (www.linuxbios.org) until you get it right. This will NOT be an easy chipset to port, but it is certainly possible.

You HAVE to use something like LinuxBIOS because if Microsoft has *any* brains, they put the bootloader in the BIOS and made it so that the bootloader will only boot a Win2k kernel made specificaly for the XBox. (they probably asymetricly encrypted the damn thing).

Once LinuxBIOS is ported to the XBox, getting joe linux enthusiast's xbox converted is trivial. But NO, the LinuxBIOS people are not likely to just do this work for you. They probably don't have the time, money, or interest to do this. Besides the fact they probably don't want microsoft breathing down their necks.
If anyone does have the time, money, and interest to do this though it could probably make for a good strong community project. Good luck to anyone that pursues it.

Why flash the ROM?

[Ungrounded Lightning]

All we need is one person to create an X-box game that just flashes in a Linux BIOS and can boot a linux image from CD.

Why bother flashing the ROM?

Just reverse-engineer its contents sufficiently to see how it loads from the CD. Then make a new LILO version-or-replacement that will boot linux (and other stuff) on the X box - perhaps with a soft BIOS under it and/or suitable modifications to certain linux modules that use BIOS services.

The only way I can imagine this failing is if the BIOS runs the entire game in protected mode with no way to subvert it.

Of course flashing the BIOS ROM is cleaner when you're done (except that you can't run the games anymore.)

Re:Why flash the ROM?

[Ungrounded Lightning]

The only way I can imagine this failing is if the BIOS runs the entire game in protected mode with no way to subvert it.

Well, actually I can see one way it could fail: If the BIOS uses asymmetric cryptography to see if the game is signed by Microsoft's private key and refuses to run it otherwise.

But that would also break the "game that flashes the ROM" unless you can get Microsoft to sign it.

Or break the asymmetric cryptography. B-)

Re:Why flash the ROM?

[jasonbw]

i believe that it only boots from the second layer of a DVD.

Another XBox presentation

[naoursla]

Microsoft recently gave a presentation at my school on how the XBox works. I don't know how much of this information is available elsewhere, but here is what we were told:

DVD is not included because it would have cost $8 more per box. They decided to let the people who wanted it pay for the license. The DVD codec is stored in the dongle.

The controllers are big because printing smaller circuit boards is expensive. There is a Japanese controller that about half the size of the US controller and they said it would work on the US version.

A guy named Horace designed the logo (he's also done branding work for Nike) and working on the branding. The first concept sketch was done with a green highlighter marker. The color stuck.

The XBox allows ripping of CDs into 128 bit using WMAC codec. The CD tracks can be used to replace game music streams (perhaps by choosing a radio station in your racecar). Volume level is normalized when ripping CDs.

The strategy for the XBox is to provided ease of development. Single platform. No plans to upgrade since that would destroy ease of development.

The XBox uses an extremely stripped Win2K kernel. The original was something like 12MB. The stripped version is around 28kb (I didn't get the exact number). When the XBox boots, the kernel is running in ring 0 and nothing else is running. The game loads all of the remaining libraries. A game could also use completely custom libraries.

No dynamically linked libraries. All libraries are statically linked into games during development. Driver upgrades will only be on new games to prevent DLL incompatibility hell.

The XBox has "strong security". They do a lot of tricks to make sure that you cannot hack the box (regions, copy protection, unauthorized software). A comment was made about unsoldering three chips. Microsoft does all production of disks and all games have been 'encrypted' to run on the XBox. It sounds similar to the DVD encryption, but Microsoft is holding all the keys so that they do not leak.

The developer talking to us said he would like to see Linux running on the box, but thought it unlikely that anyone would get past the security schemes.

They said that no mouse or keyboard would be released. "Not a Trojan horse".

The hard drive has three 700MB partitions that are allocated to the three most recently played games. These partitions are used to cache data from the slow DVD drive. After loading onto the drive, subsequent loads will be must faster.

4.5 MB are allocated for each game to store persistent world data and save games. For example: If you crash into a coffee store in a driving game, the next day you play the windows might be boarded up. A few days later the store has a "Closed for Repairs" sign on it. These world details would be up to the game developer to implement of course, but the potential is there.

Ethernet is enabled out of the box for local networks. The presenting developer was aware of software allowing internet play and seemed happy about it. Microsoft has an online program in the works where you will be able to get software updates for the XBox. Something was said about providing emulators and MAME was mentioned.

Graphics chip is a custom nVidia GeForce3 chip. It is slightly older and probably slightly slower that current consumer chips, but the standard platform will allow games to be much faster since code can be optimized for the standard platform that they are not going to change.

They will release a voice-peripheral with hardware compression that plugs into the controller. This could be used in multiplayer games like Halo for communication. This was described as a work around for not having a keyboard.

The Devkit does not have the security lock on it (which is why MAME was only on a Devkit - I don't think we'll be seeing a consumer version until MS authorizes it). The Devkit has a 9GB hard drive that acts as a DVD simulator. The developer downloads their executable to the hard drive then reboots and the XBox loads it. It can simulate DVD load time too. There is an extra serial port on the Devkit, which is used for kernel debugging. There is also a way to set the game region. The game region might be software settable on the consumer boxes too.

There is a 64MB memory limit. The XBox will crash if this is exceeded. More memory will not be available in the future.

System menus use a vertex shader to do green x-ray effects. The entire vertex shader is stored on the GPU and only polygons are sent to the card once the shader is loaded.

DOA3 has the best 3rd party utilization of the XBox and it uses pixel vertex shaders.

Halo has 8 texturing passes. One of the MS developer beat Halo on the hardest level using only pistol whip.

Re:Another XBox presentation

[Supergrass]

One of the MS developer beat Halo on the hardest level using only pistol whip.

Of all the stuff you mentioned, this is probably the most impressive. :)

Re:Another XBox presentation

[Anonymous Coward]

The stripped version is around 28kb

Bollocks!

Re:Another XBox presentation

[SilentChris]

Lots of wonderful info. As a curiousity, can you at least tell us what school you go to?

Re:Another XBox presentation

[bani]

So basically you're saying the microsoft presenter was a liar...

Well we knew that already :-)

Re:Another XBox presentation

[bani]

oops. replied to the wrong post. see the one below...

Re:Another XBox presentation

[naoursla]

University of Texas at Austin

patent does not prohibit reverse engineering

[vscjoe]

(FTR, Nintendo has patented what looks to be the entirety of the N64 console, thus perchance making reverse engineering an N64 illegal--not yet court tested.)

A patent does not prohibit reverse engineering. To the contrary: if the patent is on the entire game console, it should be detailed enough so that people could build another one: a valid patent must describe the invention in sufficient detail that someone of ordinary skill can build one.

Re:patent does not prohibit reverse engineering

[bunnie]

Yes, but then you must pay nintendo royalties if you use their patent. if you can RE the xbox, as it stands, you can probably get away without paying royalties since it is just trade secret and not patented.

Re:patent does not prohibit reverse engineering

[Anonymous Coward]

only if you want to sell it

virus for XBOX

[Anonymous Coward]

It'd really suck (heh heh) if someone wrote a virus for the xbox that propagated via internet-connected multiplayer games that wipes the hard drive, or worse yet, flashes the ROM.

Then microsoft would have to field service or replace every console that got hit...given that they lose $100-200 per console beyond the $300 price tag, they'd be outta this business pretty fast...

Slashdot users have no imagination

[wheany]

Every time there is a post concerning the XBox, there are always people who say "Xbox is just a PC", which isn't true. Other such quotes include "Since Microsoft sells the XBox at a loss, let's all buy XBoxes and no games, that'll show em!", which is stupid, since NOT buying XBox will hurt more. What do you think Microsoft is going to tell developers: "Well damn, we have just lost a billion dollars to evil Linux-hax0rs" or "XBox is the most popular console ever, we have sold a gazillion XBoxes, so there is a huge market out there."

And why the hell do people want to buy an XBox to use as an SNES emulator, go to a flea market or a garage sale an BUY A DAMN SNES! It'll propably cost something like $5. "Yeah but I can't download pirate roms off the net and play them on a real console" Well boo hoo hoo, just use a laptop or your desktop computer, and when you're done playing, you can use it to do some work if you want. I personally am not going to buy an XBox, because I too am a Microsoft "hating" geek, but at least I don't seem to be as stupid as most...

How about a transcript?

[Ungrounded Lightning]

That phone message was pretty funny...

Does anybody with an MP3 decoder feel inspired to write a transcript of it for those of us who don't have one set up yet?

Re:How about a transcript?

[cwebster]

apt-get install xmms

hard wasnt it

Re:How about a transcript?

[Anonymous Coward]

Here's what I've got:

Machine: Received at seven fourty four PM.

Microsoft guy: Andrew, my name is John Tomason from Microsoft X-box group. We'd like to chat with you a little bit concerning the ROM image you have up on your web site. We'd certainly like to have you remove that if you could. If you have any questions, please call me at area code --edit--. That ROM image from the kernel is, uh, uh, of the x-box kernel, so that we really wouldn't like to have a CDC on your web site so if you could either please give me a call, also feel free to send me a mail. My email name is --edit-- at x-box dot com. And, uh, feel free to let me know when you've gotten that successfully removed, I'd appreciate it. Thank you very much, it's about seven fourty five your time. Uhm, what day is today? Today must be Tuesday, the twentieth November. Thanks.

I'm not sure...did he say "CDC"?

My favorite lines:

"That ROM image from the kernel is, uh, uh, of the x-box kernel..."

"Uhm, what day is today? Today must be Tuesday..."

Re:How about a transcript?

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm not sure...did he say "CDC"?

Center for Disease Control. Viruses may be a bit premature, but he may concerned. Its good to see ethics from Microsoft.

Re:How about a transcript?

[zeno_2]

I think he might have been talking about a cease and desist order.

Anyone happen to get a mirror of this?

Re:How about a transcript?

[mhandlon]

Any chance I could get a copy of that rom image?

Re:How about a transcript?

[Ungrounded Lightning]

apt-get install xmms

hard wasnt it

%apt-get install xmms
apt-get: Command not found.

Care to try again? (Hint: Red Hat 6.2)

Re:How about a transcript?

[Anonymous Coward]

Here, fucknut.

I swear some of you babies need to be fucking spoonfed all the time. It is a wonder you get out of bed in the morning. And you call yourself a nerd!

Re:How about a transcript?

[Anonymous Coward]

Recieved At 7:44pm "Andrew, my name is John (something) from the Microsoft X-Box Group. I'd like to chat with you a little bit concerning the ROM image you have up on your website. We'd certainly like to have you remove that if you could. If you have any questions, please call me at area code (cut). That ROM image is from the kernel, is from the xbox kernel so we really wouldnt like to see if it on your website. (1) If you could, please give me a call, also free to leave email. My email name is (cut) @xbox.com. And feel free to let me know when you have it successful removed, I'd aprechieate it. Thank you very much, this is bob, its about (something) 7:45 your time. What day is today? Today must be Tuesday, the 20th of November. Thanks. (click) 1-That sentence was a little unclear and I cant make out the exact words.

Re:How about a transcript?

[ncc74656]

apt-get install xmms

hard wasnt it

%apt-get install xmms
apt-get: Command not found.

Besides, Real Men build from source...

lynx -dump http://www.xmms.org/files/1.2.x/xmms-1.2.5.tar.gz >xmms-1.2.5.tar.gz
tar xzf xmms-1.2.5.tar.gz
cd xmms-1.2.5
./configure && make && make install

:-)

(I don't know offhand if that's all there is to it, though that will build 99% of what's out there. I don't run X11 on any of my Linux boxen, so I don't have a way to test it.)

Mr Softy?

[Anonymous Coward]

As in *Software* by Rudy Rucker?
will it cut open our heads and eat our brains too?

A use for them.

[Ungrounded Lightning]

Nobody who can't extract his own would have a use for them until someone writes an Xbox emulator.

Actually, one use for a ROM dump would be to assist in designing a linux loader that runs with the existing BIOS.

windows

[Anonymous Coward]

Linux certainly would be cool to run on the Xbox, but what about windows? You ask, what's the point of that, it already runs windows. I'm not talking just that 23 k stripped down version of the 2k kernel. I mean running a full 2k version. The reason for this would be for running games that are already out for the PC and running them on the Xbox. Would be quite interesting to see how they performed. Only problems would be finding the right drivers for everything, but with Nvidia bringing the nforce out soon, the drivers for that may work on Xbox. Actually, the same holds true for linux on Xbox... where are the drivers? guess it's not needed if you just want to run bare minimum, but I'd like to take advantage of the hardware.

Windows on Xbox

[Anonymous Coward]

hehe, ya, what about running full windows on Xbox? not that 23 k stripped down version of the kernel, but the whole thing. What's the point of this you ask? to run windows games! i'm interested in seeing how well they run and even if they run. Drivers may be a problem (wont they be under linux to? ya, unless you only want bare minimum) But since Nvidia is coming out with nforce soon, which is based on what they are doing with Xbox, that may work. Windows on Xbox, what a concept... think i'll try it if i get an xbox

GameCube Kernel/OS

[Anonymous Coward]

What type of Kernel/OS does the GameCube use?

Halo notes

[Butcher]

As one of the Halo developers, I can tell you that nobody is going to beat it on the hardest difficulty using only the melee attack. There's just absolutely no way. There are levels full of enemies that are basically immune to melee. It's insane enough when you have all your weapons. :)

We use a variable number of texturing passes on the environment based on how many lights are shining on a surface - the minimum is four and it's easy to get even higher than eight on certain surfaces in a firefight.

- butcher

Re:Halo notes

[bani]

So basically you are saying the microsoft presenter is a liar...

Well we knew that already :-)

Re:Halo notes

[naoursla]

I have the name of developer who made the claim. I'll have to get him in touch with you so we can get this story straigtened out.

Yeah, good idea

[stud9920]

As opposed to hacking an XBox to use Linux (which I agree is a noble pursuit, if not flawed), why not find a cost-effective way to make a "LBox" out of cheap hardware. Put a penguin on the cover or something.

Yeah, good idea ! No one ever tried this before !

Why do it??

[Anonymous Coward]

Why even constribute to the evil empire by nuying their hardware ???? Let it be a dead option since the start, don't improve their market!

It's not that simple, folks.

[Anonymous Coward]

Just because the XBox seems to be very similar to a PC does not mean it will be a snap to run games on it.

For a site whose readers claim to be computer "geeks", you guys sure don't know much.

You aren't going to be able to run protected mode code IN Windows (which is already in protected mode.) If we were talking about V86 mode here, then maybe. But I'm not sure what the feasability of emulating a system using V86 modes. There are a number of old arcade systems which use 8086 and 186 processors, but these are simple enough to emulate with an interpreter, so why bother?

There's no real way to virtualize the execution of a protected mode program, especially not in Windows!

Your best bet would be to either:

A. Write a Pentium 3 interpreter and go from there using "standard" emulation techniques.

B. Write an X86->X86 dynamic recompiler.

Option A is out of the question right now, but option B might work. It sounds redundant, but it would allow bits of the code to be preserved, while at the same time recompiling memory accesses to work in the emulation environment.

It would be a massive undertaking. Not only is an X86->X86 dynarec going to be a ton of work in itself, you also have to worry about the rest of the implementation.

Ideally, you would want XBox games running under Windows with decent performance on systems which will be available in the forseeable future. To do this, you'd want to make the code very Windows-specific. It would be more than a simple emulator, it might end up being something like DEC's FX!32 package, but with much more to do (simulation of protected mode comes to mind as a tough issue.)

It would be an interesting project, but a very time consuming one and by the time you were done, XBox would be on its way out anyway.

And how about hacking the XBox to run homebrewn GAMES and demos, not some crappy Linux implementation. Do something everyone can enjoy, you dorks.

Re:It's not that simple, folks.

[Anonymous Coward]

plex86 implements B. code is scanned for protected instructions, and those are trapped and emulated. Everything else runs natively. Memory writes to the scanned code areas are trapped to handle self-modifying code. I don't have figures for how fast plex86 works, though.

Re:Post the ROM to /.

[Anonymous Coward]

xbox.bin

They're in the chipset, just not enabled

[DABANSHEE]

Afterall it costs much more to midify a chipset than just not enabling them in the BIOS.