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Carpal Tunnel Syndrome not a Disability
An Anonymous Coward writes: "It turns out that the Supreme Court of the United States doesn't think Carpal Tunnel Syndrome is a real disability. See here for details." Read the summary or the whole opinion. In a nutshell: just because a woman was sufficiently disabled that she couldn't perform her job due to carpal-tunnel, doesn't mean she was sufficiently disabled to be considered disabled under the Americans with Disabilities Act. Everyone who has that nagging pain in your wrists should probably read this decision.
Anyone who has a nagging pain in their wrists should learn how to use a keyboard properly.
I'm a writer, a poet, a genius, I know it. I don't buy software, I grow it.
CPS seemed pretty real when a friend of mine got it a couple of years back. She couldn't type or write much, which severely impeded her completing her academic studies. She had to get an automatic car (relatively unusual in the UK) so she could drive mostly one-handed. It caused her pain and discomfort for several months. If this isn't a disability under US law, then US law is broken.
If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
This is interesting. The court is basically saying that if you can do "everyday life tasks" (brushing your hair, cooking dinner, whatever), you're not disabled for the purposes of the ADA. But on my disability policy, it states that if I can't do my regular job, they consider me disabled. Since my job (like most of yours) involves lots of typing, losing both legs wouldn't make me disabled, but C-T would. So now the question is, how does this court decision affect my policy? Can I expect a call from my agent telling me they've changed their definition to line up with the court?
God invented whiskey so the Irish would not rule the world.
Yeah. Just because I can no longer type well enough to be a software developer doesn't preclude me from other, similarly dignified fields of work for which I am qualified, such as making chalupas at Taco Bell.
Every year during my review, I just pray the words "slashdot.org" aren't mentioned.
Interesting reading. The disability has to permanently impair "major life activities". Which means more than just the ability to perform the work in a certain job. So if your carpal tunnel syndrome prevents you from keyboarding, but not from driving, cooking, etc, and it's not permanent, it's not a disability. You mean that an inability to type isn't as disabling as losing a leg? Whoda thunk it.
Best Slashdot Co
Nowhere did it state that Carpal Tunnel Syndrome was not a disability -- it stated that in the case of the woman named, they were not considering it a disability because she was not impaired sufficently to be unable to do her job.
http://quiz.ravenblack.net/blood.pl?3357354385
Guess we're going to be needing these after all.
It's a pain in the ass to do them, but your wrists will thank you in five years. Young coders might feel invincible now, but any sort of 40hr+ work week will make quick work of the nerves in your hands and arms no matter how young you are.
Also check out this informative (if cute) prevention handbook.
-Erik
This doesn't mean that carpel tunnel isn't a disablity you dolts, it's a very serious problem. This woman's case simply didn't prove that her affliction was serious enough for her to be considered under the ADA.
I posted to
Sit in your chair properly.
Take simple preventative measures such as stretching to reduce pain and stress due to repeated tasks.
This has all been commonly known for years now, and most businesses will provide rudimentary ergonomic audits for their employees.
Everyone who has that nagging pain in your wrists should probably read this decision.
Too... sore... to... move... mouse.
For all intensive purposes, "whom" is no longer a word. That begs the question, "who cares"?
In cases like Williams', "the central inquiry must be whether the claimant is unable to perform the variety of tasks central to most people's daily lives, not whether the claimant is unable to perform the tasks associated with her specific job," the court wrote.
Many people who are in the construction industry, for example, get a bad back over time or are otherwise affected physically over the years of that kind of labor. Many of those people move on to other types of jobs, possibly relating to construction management, sales, inspection, etc. Just because their body no longer allows them to perform one job does not mean they have become disabled.
On the other hand, if said construction worker cannot perform basic daily tasks, such as bathing or dressing, or cooking, they would be classified as disabled.
I Heart Sorting Networks
Woah there moderators! Finish reading before you fire at me:
I've HAD three or four different maladies related to finger-hand-wrist related movement over the last, (oh god, has it been that long?) 15 years.
In all cases, the ones that were _computer_ related were cured by altering the work environment.
The one situation that eventually required surgery, and that was initially thought to be work related, wasn't. It was a Sports related injury. The fact that myself, the office Clinician, and the Workers Comp specified specialist didn't catch it as that is irrelevant. When the _hand_ specialist reviewed it, he stated it was a totally different problem (Intersection Syndrome, not Dequarvains Tendonitis) and not caused by lumping along at a keyboard during the work week.
That's not to say a company isn't liable for providing a safe environment for its employees, It is. But I wouldn't characterise CT as a modern equivalent of lead poisoning.
"Draco dormiens nunquam titillandus."
Isn't OSHA supposed to step in somewhere? Do companies actually not realize that it's in their interest to attempt to ensure that their workers' jobs can be performed without injuring them?
Also from the article:
So pursuing a livelihood doesn't meet the ADA criterion of "major life activity"?OK,
- B
http://www.bradheintz.com/
- updated
Yes, exactly. Note that unanimous Supreme Court decisions are very rare in any case where there's substantial controversy -- I strongly suspect that this individual really didn't have very strong case (or maybe she had a really lousy lawyer.) I would be very surprised if this case turned out to set any significant precedent.
The correlation between ignorance of statistics and using "correlation is not causation" as an argument is close to 1.
Take Aikido.
Aikido focuses on joint locks, which include wrist locks. After taking Aikido you will quickly have wrists that can withstand the rigors of typing. Flexible wrists are the key to avoid carpal tunnel syndrome, IMO, and Aikido is the key to flexible wrists.
Or you could just wait for speach recognition.
Which of course she responded to by filing a lawsuit.
There are several excerises for the prevention ff the Carpel Tunnel Sindrome Here.
Anybody who spends lots of time in front the computer should check that link
The article simply says that in this case, the woman was not disabled to the point she could not perform her daily tasks. It explicitly says:
The ruling does not mean that anyone with carpal tunnel syndrome or similar partial disabilities is automatically excluded from protection by the ADA. But it probably will make such claims harder to prove, since the court makes clear that disability must affect a range of manual tasks or duties.
I wonder if the court has a list of manual tasks/duties that if you cannot perform, constitute being disabled.
I Heart Sorting Networks
In its brief on the merits, petitioner asks us to reinstate the District Court's grant of summary judgment to petitioner on the manual task issue. In its petition for certiorari, however, petitioner did not seek summary judgment; it argued only that the Court of Appeals' reasons for granting partial summary judgment to respondent were unsound. This Court's Rule 14(1)(a) provides: "Only the questions set out in the petition, or fairly included therein, will be considered by the Court." The question whether petitioner was entitled to summary judgment on the manual task issue is therefore not properly before us. See Irvine v. California, 347 U.S. 128, 129--130 (1954).
Accordingly, we reverse the Court of Appeals' judgment granting partial summary judgment to respondent and remand the case for further proceedings consistent with this opinion.
This decision just means that if you can't do one thing, but could do something else, it's not your employer's responsibility to accommodate you -- it's your responsibility to find a job that you can do. I don't think this really changes things for people who have disabilities (e.g., blindness) which would require accommodation in almost all circumstances. And it certainly doesn't single out carpel tunnel as not being a disability. If you had a case of carpel tunnel that made it difficult for you to do most jobs, ADA would still apply.
-Esme
Maybe this confirms my thinking that the mouse is an ergonomic nightmare and one should stay away from GUI-centric editors and do it all on the keyboard.
The US Supreme Court did NOT rule that CTS is NOT a disability. They ruled that whatever disability you have has to preclude you from leading a normal life.
From the link to the decision, scroll down toward the bottom of the page:
" The District Court noted that at the time respondent sought an accommodation from petitioner,
she admitted that she was able to do the manual tasks required by her original two jobs in QCIO.
App. to Pet. for Cert. A--36. In addition, according to respondent's deposition testimony, even
after her condition worsened, she could still brush her teeth, wash her face, bathe, tend her flower
garden, fix breakfast, do laundry, and pick up around the house. App. 32--34. The record also
indicates that her medical conditions caused her to avoid sweeping, to quit dancing, to occasionally
seek help dressing, and to reduce how often she plays with her children, gardens, and drives long
distances. Id., at 32, 38--39. But these changes in her life did not amount to such severe
restrictions in the activities that are of central importance to most people's daily lives that they
establish a manual-task disability as a matter of law. On this record, it was therefore inappropriate
for the Court of Appeals to grant partial summary judgment to respondent on the issue whether
she was substantially limited in performing manual tasks, and its decision to do so must be
reversed."
Eve Fairbanks says I drive a hybrid!LOL
There's no reason to even let CTS become an issue to you; work out your hand while you're sitting there mulling over a piece of code and not only will it make your hands feel a lot more nimble, it'll sooth the inflammation that causes that numb feeling.
I have no personal investment in these things, this isn't a plug. Just something I started doing once my fingers got numb one day and the effect was nearly immediate, my hand felt better within a few hours.
For the link dependent, here is another person saying pretty much the same thing (with some other ideas, which I'm not exactly prepared to try out ;).
While I agree about computer usage, CT can be caused by other factors. For example: we just had our first kid. As we found out, CT can sometimes be brought on by hormone fluctuations post-partum. This is the case with my wife. I've never known anyone with severe CT, but now I know how excruciating it can be. She's often unable to lift our child and she certainly can't drive a car. It may be temporary (we certainly hope so), but in the meantime, it's pretty debilitating.
Actually, if you chopped flint handaxes 8 hours a day you would probably have a much worse case of C-T than typists. I remember the first cases of C-T were from factoryworkers who had to hammer in some nails, a job that required them to swing a hammer for 8 hours a day, they would get C-T after only a few months on the job (before they were replaced with heartless robots that could do the job 10x faster despite the loud objections from the worker's union...)
I read the internet for the articles.
But, the ADA test is still if the disability affects major life acitivities, not just working.
Many states have a different definition for disability. In Mass, if you are injured on the job, you are automatically considered disabled.
Of course, the definition for disability is always different. SSDI defines disbility different from the ADA which is different from the state version of the ADA which is different from workers comp. definition of disability which is different from an insurance companies definition of disability.
Fight Spammers!
I read an article a while back that claimed that the cause of most carpal tunnel syndrome was the use of the mouse rather than the keyboard.
From personal experience being a programming who has used dvorak for 3 years, and using as many keyboard shortcuts as possible, I've never had a problem with carpal tunnel.
The courts are being used to finally stop the abuse of the ADA. It should interesting to see what happens when the "compulsive behaviour" abuses make it to the court.
Essentially they are stating, theres a big difference between being disabled and inconvienenced. The law was meant to help the truly disabled, not those who are lazy, or have good lawyers. (and I won't go into to alcholics)
* Winners compare their achievements to their goals, losers compare theirs to that of others.
Sure, the person can cook. What with? You can't live on thin air alone, and if you change career tracks, you're often faced with massively expensive education to get the bits of paper you need. Oh, and education means lots of writing (which is painful for someone with CTS).
So, no job, no prospect of getting another job in the same field, and no prospect of being able to change fields.
Essentially, the Supreme Court has ruled that it is legal to abandon someone to a life of welfare, which WE have to pay for, because THEY don't want the political hastle involved in actually providing any kind of support.
Mind you, this isn't the first time. They ruled that a pilot who was legally blind was not disabled, because the person could fly an aircraft, even though the company the pilot flew for had sacked them, for being legally blind, which the Supreme Court then ruled was not discriminatory, because the person had a disability that prevented them from working.
The world is a crazy place, at times. The rest of the time, it's a complete loony bin.
It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
Two hours ago you were bashing opportunistic lawyers in regard to the German SuSE case, and now you are whining because the supreme court said that the same type of ambulance chaser lawyer can't sue over a "disability" that is minor in comparison to real disabilities.
This decision is a victory for freedom, and limited government interference. It's also a victory for people with real disabilities.
I've had enough abrasive sigs. Kittens are cute and fuzzy.
The article also points out:" The ruling does not mean that anyone with carpal tunnel syndrome or similar partial disabilities is automatically excluded from protection by the ADA. But it probably will make such claims harder to prove, since the court makes clear that disability must affect a range of manual tasks or duties. "
You cannot fire an alcoholic, since he/she is 'disabled'. But if a programmer or other computer worker cannot use their hands, that isn't a disability.
Conformity is the jailer of freedom and enemy of growth. -JFK
Workers are a dime a dozen - primarily because PEOPLE are a dime a dozen. It ISN'T in a company's best interest to ensure that its work environment is safe and non-injurious, because if its work environment destroys its employees, it can always get more employees to replace them. Companies consider all of their parts in the same way - through cost-benefit analysis. If the cost of replacing X widgets every Y months is less than the cost of making those widgets tough enough to last longer, then you go with that. And, to be honest, people are CHEAP to replace.
-Hentai [in vita non pacem est]
Fight Spammers!
I think one piece of wisdom we can garner from this case is that it is important to keep good records of when you worked, what your medical conditions are, and your employer's evaluations. Perhaps it is good to be evaluated by impartial physicians as well.
If memory serves, this woman had worked for Toyota in an assembly plant for a number of years. Over time, her carpal tunnel syndrome developed and resulted in significant absenteeism. After UAW-Management mediation, Toyota reassigned her to a job that was less physically demanding, e.g., inspecting the paint on new cars. While at that task, her attendance record improved dramatically. Unfortunately, after a time Toyota management again reassigned her to assembly work in circumstances that aggravated her carpal tunnel syndrome and again resulted in absenteeism due to chronic pain. I don't recall whether she quit or was fired prior to the filing of this lawsuit.
The Supremes have ruled that Toyota is not obligated to provide a job for this woman, nor to provide reasonable accommodation in any existing job, because the carpal tunnel syndrome she suffers from does not significantly limit "major life activities" -- meaning, she can still drive, care for her own hygiene, hold a less physically demanding job, etc.
In my view, Toyota is both a good guy and a bad guy here. After making a reasonable accommodation by transfering its employee to the paint shop, it then put her back in the circumstance that was a significant factor in the development of her carpal tunnel syndrome. Initially nice, then heartless. However, Toyota is in the right about asserting no responsibility to employ her because, as noted by the Supremes, its former employee is perfectly capable of choosing a less physically demanding career path, with equal if not better economic opportunities.
This is similar to a construction foreperson saying she will not hire me for the physically demanding job of digging trenches if I suffer from obesity, chronic back pain, and uncontrolled hypertension. I'm simply not suited to the job.
That being said, it sucks to be the plaintiff.
MacOS, Windows, BeOS, GNOME, KDE: they're all just Xerox copies
From what little I understand of CTS, it involves the wrist just not having the neural bandwidth to handle too much activity on the part of the hand. Don't know how swinging a hammer could cause problems, unless positioning the nail required a lot of effort...
Moreover, Justice O' Connor pointed out that the test under the ADA is whether or not a person's disability affects his or her to perform normal daily tasks--not his or her ability to perform a specific job.
In fact, the ADA specifically states that this is the test. As Justice O'Connor wrote, "Repetitive work with hands and arms extended at or above shoulder levels for extended periods is not an important part of most people's daily lives," O'Connor wrote. "Household chores, bathing and brushing one's teeth, in contrast, are among the types of manual tasks of central importance to people's daily lives." In sharp contrast to the rather extreme and dire view suggested by the story posting <rant>(which, in my view, is either misleading and downright shameful or simply reflects a total lack of understanding of the decision and the governing laws)</rant>, the Justices did not rule on the validity of Carpal Tunnel Syndrome; they simply verified the intention of the ADA as written and asked the lower court to reconsider its decision.
In this case, the court held that the woman was not impaired in normal daily tasks, in spite of the fact that she was impaired in her job. There is a critical distinction here, and I firmly agree with the limitations placed on the ADA by the court here.
-db
I'm confused. Isn't this the same court that said Casey could join the PGA tour with his bad legs?
I guess the supremes must be frustated golfers who never worked a line.
The next thing you will see is insurance companies will lobby to pass a law that CTS not eligible for any compensation anymore.
The worst thing is to have bad laws stacking up on each other.
Since we're talking CTS (Carpal tunnel), anyone used Chinese Exercise balls to relieve pain or provide alternative motion for wrist and finger muscles? For those who don't know, they look a lot cooler than a dirty stress ball. I just ordered a pair and want to try them for my CTS that has been getting worse lately.
As many others have already pointed out, this ruling is on what is considered a disability under the ADA, which is an American law that provides the minimum which everyone (employers, shopkeepers, public transportation, etc.) must do to accomodate disability. For example, I believe that it's the ADA which forces businesses that wouldn't normally allow pets on the premises to nevertheless accept seeing-eye dogs.
This ruling has no bearing on whether or not carpal tunnel could be considered a disability under, say, a worker's compensation law. It merely states that in order to invoke the power of the ADA ones disability must extend to basic life tasks; merely making ones job impossible is insufficient.
However, if your friend was forced to get a specially equipped car, then her disability was much more severe than the disability in this case, and in all likelihood meets the standard the court set in this case for invoking the ADA.
I believe the "hammer-swinging" cases are more likely examples of Repetitive Stress Injury (RSI), rather than simply CTS. CTS is a sub-ailment of the broader RSI category, IIRC...
I wish I had a kryptonite cross, because then you could keep Dracula and Superman away.
I've got a nagging pain in my wrists due to repetetive motions and it may even be Carpal Tunnel. Even if it was considered a disability, I hardly think that I could receive any compensation other than the monthly ammount I pay for premium binary newsgroup access.
Gotta go. There's a massive flood on alt.binaries.pictures.erotica.bluebird.reposts.
Ow. Ow. Ouch.
...there's a simple fix for those of us who may be in the early stages of carpel tunnel and at least pain relief for those who already have it: go get yourself a keyboard & pointing device that doesn't screw up your wrists. Personally, I used to do email tech support - over 300 emails in 8 hours (yes, some were scripted; even still, my wrists/hands were NUMB at the end of the day.) The fix? $170 keyboard - Kinesis Ergo (www.kinesis-ergo.com) countoured keyboard. Yes, it took 3 weeks to get used to it, and people looked @ me funny in the beginning - but hell, we're IT people, we expect that. My wrists stopped hurting after about 2 months of using that keyboard. (No I don't work for kinesis) - In fact, I'm eyeing the DataHand (www.datahand.com) for my next keyboard...
In fact, the article clearly states:
The ruling does not mean that anyone with carpal tunnel syndrome or similar partial disabilities is automatically excluded from protection by the ADA. But it probably will make such claims harder to prove, since the court makes clear that disability must affect a range of manual tasks or duties.
Well, for starters, the Court did not rule that carpal tunnel syndrom is not a disability. They ruled that the woman in question was not disabled from carpal tunnel syndrome.
The law already makes clear just what this snippet from the article says. I think that in many cases, employers and insurance companies are concerned with the political backlash that may come from a close interpretation (that is, applying the law as written) of the law.
Nonetheless, the law is clear that you aren't disabled if you can't perform your job...there is a much broader test to be satisfied to determine a disability.
Certainly there would be a big bonanza for the plaintiff if an ADA violation was proved, but I wonder if this would have been more appropriately handled as a Workman's Compensation case? After all, she claimed that her injury came from a work-related situation...that seems tailor-made for a Workman's Comp case.
Of course, the cynical side of my must point out there there is a lot more money to be had from an ADA lawsuit...
-h-
Anyhow. Going through his chart I noted that he had a long history of letting his glycemic control get out from under him. He was a little out of it (thanks to the DKA) but was awake enough to give a pretty decent history. He was feeling a little off for a few days, but basically ignored it. Made no adjustments to his insulin regimen, nor did he seek medical attention until he was in pretty rough metabolic shape.
I asked some pretty basic questions to get an idea of his disease state. He'd been diabetic from a very young age, always controlled with insulin, but didn't have a glucometer with which to check his blood sugar. Every diabetic should be checking their blood sugars with some degree of regularity. Why didn't he have one? He couldn't afford it.
Couldn't afford it? Oooookay. I knew he hadn't been living with his parents for a few years, so he was out and fending for himself. Fair enough, but I gathered that he had to have some sort of income... not only to pay his rent, but to explain the Tommy Hilfiger branded shirt, designer jeans, and brand new Nikes he was wearing on his feet. So I asked him what he did for a living.
"Nothing. I'm on disability."
"Oh? What for?" I asked, thinking I had missed something. Instead he looked at me like he thought I was completely looney-tunes.
"For diabetes, of course." He snorted.
Not only was this guy munching up our public medical system's budget with his repeated and mostly preventable frequent flyer visits to the emergency department, but he was receiving government funding for his "disability". Sure, his diabetes was poorly controlled, but not because of the disease itself, but because this guy basically didn't give a flying fuck.
Ultimately, I don't know what pissed me off more. There, of course, is the fact that this guy was milking his disease for disability benefits when thousands upon thousants of diabetics work and live and survive in the real world just fine, thank you. On top of that, some physician somewhere, at some time, had to sign the papers designating his patient as qualifying for government assistance because of his diabetes. I mean, crap, if I have asthma, can I get a cheque too?
Granted, there's probably a whole psychosocial dimension to the story I haven't explored, but the entire situation does have to strike you as being more than a little absurd. To get back to the Slashdot story, I do think that there are musculoskeletal conditions that affect the wrists enough to severely impair one's ability to perform a great number of tasks, as well as being distressingly painful to boot. But a large majority of people who have repetitive strain injuries or "Carpal Tunnel Syndrome" can benefit from antiinflammatories, physiotherapy, and appropriate work modification (ergonomics and the like). They're probably not permanently disabled and in need of financial assistance. Save the money for the people who really need it.
-DrPsycho - Coping with reality since 1975
From hearing this from NPR months ago (so the details are sketchy at best), the woman Williams was originally on the Toyota assembly line doing body/final touch work that involved repeative hand motions. She developed CTS on the job, and Toyota moved her to a desk position for some time after it was diagnosed. However, some time later, Toyota moved her back onto the plant floor, giving her a job that involved some reaching up to the top of cars and vans (though this was not the full duty of her job); this irridated her CTS and she complained to the management but they refused to move her from that job, or otherwise she would have been fired. She then filed the lawsuit for discrimination, which did go her way in two lower courts.
"Pinky, you've left the lens cap of your mind on again." - P&TB
"I can see my house from here!" - ST:
I'm sure this will be good news to my mother, who had surgery for carpal tunnel in the 70's. I guess it was just all in her head.
IANAL, AIDPOOTV
Half right. The quality of the case is not the criteria the decision is based on, but it is a limiting factor in how sweeping the decision can be -- and how binding a precedent can be as well. IMHO, they have not so much struck down CTS as an ADA covered disability, as said that it takes more than a diagnosis.
Disability is separate but related to the ADA. IF your CT is considered a job related injury, then it's more of an OSHA thing, with all the related hoo-ha. The ADA is a discrimination law, basically stating that hiring decisions can't be made on the basis of disability, unless the person's disability makes it impossible, without reasonable accomodation, to do a specific job. If this sounds vague, it is: Congress hasn't clearly written a law in years.
So, if you broke your hands when you were trying to change the water in the water cooler, workman's comp law says that you continue to get paid your full rate until you can work again. (of course, they can make you come into work and answer telephones with a hands free set, but that's a light duty assignment).
ADA says that, if an employer can make reasonable accomodations, they cannot hire or fire you simply because you have a disability. What's "reasonable accomodations"? No one knows, and Congress is letting the courts address it.
"As God is my witness, I thought turkeys could fly." A. Carlson
On the contrary, this is a very significant case. It lays out the general rules for determining whether a major life function is impaired. Since CT may or may not rise to that level of impairment in individual cases, they must be sorted out individually. This one is being sent back for that to happen.
Reuters (as published via Yahoo news) seems to interpret this as having a much more far reaching effect than this one case:
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - In a decision that may affect millions of Americans, the U.S. Supreme Court (news - web sites) ruled on Tuesday that a landmark 1990 federal law protecting the disabled from discrimination only covered physical impairments that prevented them from carrying out tasks important to daily life.
The SC probably wouldn't get involved on the factual merits of an individual case, they are in the business of overseeing the interpretation of law, no?
There is much cruelty in the universe, John.
Yeah, we seem to have the tour map.
Earlier this year was the Post Office case where the court determined that facilities to accomodate handicapped individuals at the local post office were cost prohibitive and so didn't have to be provided. Then there was I believe a case related to a new definition of occupational disabilities. This is the next.
This court has made it its personal crusade to tear down the ADA as well as most or all occupational disability statutes. Rehnquist basically said as much, the disability regulations are frivolous.
That was most likely a troll, but I'll respond anyways.
The people who wrote the laws (that is, the Representatives and Senators) are not appointees, but elected representatives. The people who judged this case (that is, the Supreme Court justices) are appointees, but hardly partisan hacks (with a couple of exceptions).
I wonder what your alternative method of dispute resolution would be? Shall we get the plaintiff and a lawyer for the company to fight it out? Perhaps we should elect judges to the Supreme Court, so that we can bring to the Supreme Court all of the integrity and discipline that so characterizes the Congress?
You suggest moving the government "closer to the people." Are you suggesting that trials should be held in the Anglo-Saxon method, where whomever gets the most people of the highest social rank to speak for them wins? Or shall we vote on who wins cases?
-- Two men say they're Jesus. One of them must be wrong. - Dire Straits
Do companies actually not realize that it's in their interest to attempt to ensure that their workers' jobs can be performed without injuring them?
It's definitely not in a company's interests. And the court has said so again. I agree with you; it would be nice if there truly was an interest (ie, incentive) for employers on this front. But there simply isn't, and here's the ultimate proof. I mean, unless you believe in god or karma or something.
So pursuing a livelihood doesn't meet the ADA criterion of "major life activity"?
I think the court said that pursuing one specific livelihood isn't a criteria. It's a bad stereotype, I know, but autoworkers are probably left out in the cold in this case. But consider a more educated or retrainable person (say, technology worker) who gets the same affliction. If they can move on to another livelihood and then it's fair to say that their affliction doesn't affect "major life activities". Sucks to be an autoworker, and that's pretty ironic, considering cars make America go around.
should get a better keyboard, mouse, and desk chair. The responsibility for PREVENTING this condition is yours. If your employer won't spring for the stuff you need, get it yourself, or get a new job. This condition is PREVENTABLE. It's your job to look after your tools. If you type, your hands are your tools.
...isn't my wrists but in my hands. What gets me is on the back of the hand abive the wrist, straight across from the base of my double-jointed thumbs (where the veins usually meet). I think it has to do with the way I mouse. I mouse with my fingertips, not my palm. My palm isn't rested on the mouse but is instead held up by my fingertips. I think that's what does it to me.
RTFA
Congress intended the existence of a disability to be determined in such a case-by-case manner.
...
An individualized assessment of the effect of an impairment is particularly necessary when the impairment is one such as carpal tunnel syndrome, in which symptoms vary widely from person to person.
It was not decided that the Americans with Disabilities Act didn't protect CTS. It was decided that in this woman's case, her specific form of CTS wasn't a disability under the ADA. In order for someone with CTS to be protected by the ADA, their form of CTS must "severely limit major life actives."
Rather, the central inquiry must be whether the claimant is unable to perform the variety of tasks central to most people's daily lives. Also without support is the Sixth Circuit's assertion that the question whether an impairment constitutes a disability is to be answered only by analyzing the impairment's effect in the workplace.
...
Moreover, because the manual tasks unique to any particular job are not necessarily important parts of most people's lives, occupation-specific tasks may have only limited relevance to the manual task inquiry
That speaks for itself. Just because your impairment won't let you perform your job, its not a disability, and your not protected by the ADA. So, we return to CTS. For many of us, it WOULD impair MAJOR life activity. IANAL, however I think that you would have a hard time of it in court.
--Cam
All jocks think about is sports. All nerds think about is sex.
- She wasn't moved to a desk job, but moved to an assembly floor position that didn't require as much manual labor. Specifically she was assigned to a quality control team which did four QC-related tasks, she initially was assigned to rotate between two of the four, two which didn't aggrevate her CTS. Management then got the bright idea to make everyone on the team to rotate through all four tasks, the other two which did aggrevate Williams' CTS.
- The district court (Eastern District of Kentucky) found for Toyota ("granted summary judgement for petitioner" in SCOUS terms means the person in front of the "v."). The Sixth Circut court overturned the district court, ignoring the fact that Williams didn't seem to have any problems keeping up with her hygine and household chores (which appears to be a requirement to qualify for ADA protection.)
-sk...or beavis and butthead get smarter:
Beavis:
'Uh-huh-huh, you said "repetative motion", your honour...uh-huh-huh-huh.'
Butthead:
'Is that why they wear those robes, Beavis?'
Beavis:
Well, eeeheeeheeheee, we submit to the court...
Butthead:
Huh-huh, you said submit.
(SMACK)
Beavis:
Quiet! That one man's "repetitave motion" is another man's life activity... Just look at my associate....
Butthead:
You said Ass...Hey, shut up Beavis, don't make me kick your ass again.
{and no, I did not read the article, seeing as +4 posts explained all I needed to know quite well, thank you}
.
Have you read the moderator guidelines? Well, have you, PUNK? (and I want a Karma: Gnarly option)
And a test in November.
-- Two men say they're Jesus. One of them must be wrong. - Dire Straits
Sorry, but using a Dvorak keyboard layout isn't the magic bullet you might hope. I've been using Dvorak for several years, but it hasn't really helped my wrist pains at all. Qwerty may not be great for a lot of reasons, but Dvorak is not really any better for RSI, especially for programmers (who have to reach farther for the more commonly used [] keys). Basically, while Dvorak is nice, it is still important to follow all the normal ergonomic advice.
The enemies of Democracy are
Again, IANAL, but my understanding is that the fact could very well be that the woman had such a bad case of CTS that she can't in fact do everyday stuff well or at all.
The problem from the SC's POV is that the federal court used faulty legal reasoning in deciding for the woman, the faulty reasoning being that the "disability" has to extend beyond the scope of work-related duties.
So in U.S. law, it's not if you win or lose, it's how you win or lose that counts. In this case the SC said the federal court screwed up and misinterpreted a law, irrespective of the facts surrounding the case.
Ummm, yes they are. In broad theory, a democracy decides governmental issues by popular vote, while a republic decides governmental actions through the votes of representatives, who aggregate the will of their served segment of the population. That said, it can be argued that we have not been a republic since the Progressive Movement (which passed popular election of Senators and got most states to go to popular vote, winner-take-all Presidential electoral contests with the Electors bound to their votes by law). Since then, the three elected parts of the Federal government are all elected, in effect, by the voting populace at large, with only the amount of people voting for a particular person varying by office. That would make us a representative democracy, rather than a republic.
-jeff
-- Two men say they're Jesus. One of them must be wrong. - Dire Straits
To actually read the underlying judgment, and the extensive news coverage of the company's attempts at accomodation would take time away from composing witty on-line flames.
Yours truly,
Mr. X
...NPR had excellent coverage of this story from the beginning...
It's still a disability. It's just not a disability as defined by the ADA. The woman was not suing her employer under some employment disability clause, she was saying they violated the ADA.
If it WAS, many other things would have to be done.. like, doorhandles changed on every public buildling so someone with CTS could open it, etc.
I know the friend I posted about earlier very well. She had been using a computer for several years, and was well aware of how to set up a workstation in terms of seating position, keyboard position, etc. I saw her room often enough to know that she acted on that knowledge. Much good it did her.
A lot of "experts" claim that there's no medical evidence supporting CTS, or that it's completely preventable and/or all in the mind. And yet, there are an increasing number of cases where people who've followed all the "good practices" still somehow get it. Anyone would think the experts might be wrong.
Maybe that's why the new keyboard I got at work has a big sticker on the bottom, claiming that any keyboard use over extended periods could be harmful, and disclaiming responsibility for any injury caused by repetitive use.
If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
Is read all the comments first so my head gets filled with a nice preconceived notion of what the article doesn't say, and then read the article with that in mind. It's fun, like reading a raving review of a movie written by a moron, so you'll know all the parts of the movie you won't give a damn about before seeing it. :)
The enemies of Democracy are
Um, but it's an important part of my daily life. It's all a matter of what we see as important and essential to our daily living. To many people, using the computer is no less important than brushing their teeth. I think sometime in the near future, we may see computer use start to be considered "an important part of most people's daily lives."
Why don't you try using a chair?
I won't try to describe them since I'm not sure I could do a very good job without having some pictures. Any martial art that uses joint lock tchniques should also teach stretching and strengthening exercises for those joints. If you have problems such as carpal tunnel I recomend looking into it.
Under capitalism man exploits man. Under communism it's the other way around.
This isn't the first ruling of this nature. In
essense, the whole ADA is being pretty much
gutted by a catch 22.
If your disability is such that you are not
capable of doing the job, then you have no
case under ADA. Reasoanbly enough, the ADA
doesn't demand miracles - the employer only
has to make "reasonable accomodation". If
"reasonable accomodation" won't allow you to
do the job, then you have no case.
If your disability is such that you might be
able to do the job with reasonable accomodation,
then you don't have a disability recognized by
the ADA.
I assume the author intended this to be humorous, and to fish out lots of eager moderators who've clearly never trained aikido...
It's true that with good training, aikido (and other martial arts that involve wristlocks) will increase your wrist flexibility and strength. I've been training these things for years, and also play the piano as well as typing lots, and I've never encountered serious wrist problems. After a while, I even developed a reputation for having exceptionally bendy wrists amongst my peers, so I got to be the first guy anyone new tried them on -- if they worked on me, they worked on everyone.
Everything was great, until one day an overenthusiastic training partner slammed a wristlock on a bit too hard. My wrist still worked afterwards, but was obviously badly weakened, probably due to a connective tissue injury. I've been forced to give up training stuff I love for well over a year, while I let the wrist recover. After all, if it goes, I can't drive to work or type when I get there, and that's not a risk I'm prepared to take.
Sorry to go all serious, but while the parent post was amusing, I think it's important to avoid misleading people, just in case anyone goes out and starts doing this stuff after reading it.
If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
Yeah, you're a troll. Now that Slashdot has given users in good standing an automatic bonus point for their posts, it's easy to see who the trolls are.
However, I have to bite here.
From 1991 to 1995 I had Chronic Fatigue Immune Dysfunction Syndrome. It was a mild case by comparison to those who are bedridden by it, but it was nonetheless pretty debilitating.
Imagine you have the worst fsckn flu you've ever had. No energy, aches, pains, chills, hot spells, and worst of all, a fog descends on your brain that makes it impossible to think clearly.
Now imagine that this flu doesn't go away.
That's CFIDS.
The first CFIDS episode lasted several months, and left lots of puzzled doctors in its wake. Basically I was diagnosed with CFIDS because all the known causes for symptoms like mine were ruled out. I had a few more active episodes before my last one which was in late 1994.
There are deficits left over from the CFIDS. I don't drive (not good in LA) because I sometimes have lapses of consciousness. They are brief, less than a few seconds in duration, but enough to mean I could be dangerous on the road. I find I have a harder time moving information from short-term memory to long-term memory than I did before my CFIDS. My stamina is certainly not what it was pre-CFIDS.
However, I did manage to lift myself up through my own effort. I learned HTML and for about 5 years worked out of my home building websites for people. I have even had contract positions where I worked on-site. The Internet industry went into the crapper but I spent a year retraining and now I'm hitting the bricks again looking for a desktop support/hardware support/junior Windows sysadmin position.
Lucky for me I had the support of good friends, family, and most importantly my spouse. If it weren't for them I probably would have starved during that period. And I will have you know that in that entire period, I never ONCE was on SSI or Disability.
I hope one day you have to deal with a chronic disease. I hope it's nice and painful and lays you out to where you can't fend for yourself. Then I hope someone takes the same attitude you have. "Here's that kick up the arse, mate! Get with it!"
Knowledge is power. Knowledge shared is power multiplied.
So, can anyone translate that to English, please?
Is it just me, or does it strike anyone as a bit fascist (not to mention unconstitutional) that one can win a case without trial.
7th Amendment:
In Suits at common law, where the value in controversy shall exceed twenty dollars, the right of trial by jury shall be preserved, and no fact tried by a jury, shall be otherwise re-examined in any Court of the United States, than according to the rules of the common law.
Just because it CAN be done, doesn't mean it should!
I can only guess what your message means, but it looks to me like the whole thing pisses you off so bad that you actually stuttered while typing.
;+)
Please mod this post only if you think others should/n't read this. I have enough ego^H^H^Hkarma. Thanks!
As soon as I started weight training, it all evaporated. I make sure to do some stretching (it's become something I just kinda do while I'm thinking), and I get out to the gym three nights a week. (Soon to be joined by weekly hocky games.)
There are a bunch of us here at work that type for a living. I've noticed that the guys who are in good shape (we've got a few ex-motocross riders) don't suffer from RSI. I have a friend who's a physical trainer, and she's helped a lot of people with wrist/CT problems just by getting them to do a little strength training on their wrists. My pet theory: RSI & CT seem to be caused by overuse of underpowered muscles. Typing isn't stressful enough to make your arms stronger, but it is stressful enough to cause strain and eventual damage to over-worked muscles. Beef up, and you might avoid the problem.
There are several excercises that you can do to strengthen your wrists. My favorite is:
- Tie a weight (5 lbs or so) to the end of a string, and tie the string to the middle of a 2-foot pole. (I use a cut-off hockey stick, and a small milk jug for the weight.)
- Hold the pole in front of you with both hands, palms down, with the string hanging between them.
- Now, reel in the weight. Turn the pole away from you until the weight comes all the way up. Then turn the pole toward you untill the weight goes all the way down and back again. Repeat.
You can do this with your arms resting on your knees, or train your shoulders and posture by doing it standing.I'm fully aware that strength isn't the only factor in RSI and CT. But anything that trains strength and flexibility seems to help. Good luck, all!
(Yes, there's an intentional typo in the name.)
The xwrits tool occasionally pops up reminders to stop typing and do your writs exercises. And if you ignore it, it makes rude gestures at you. Debian users can just apt-get the xwrits package, and there's source and RPMs and stuff on the project page.
It definitely helped me. My wrists rarely hurt anymore (but I should keep doing the exercises anyway).
You cannot apply a technological solution to a sociological problem. (Edwards' Law)
...and we'll see how you feel when you get to that point. You gonna give up the profession you love just so your company can get off cheap?
:)
Why *shouldn't* a company spend money to make machines work in a way that does not hurt? Why *should* it be painful? I agree that there is a limit, but companies can spend very reasonable amounts of money to help people out. Sound like she got grabby, but it isn't reasonable IMHO to think that companies shouldn't try to help out all the same.
What's pathetic is not thinking about your answer before hitting submit.
And BTW - Metallica's Black Album rocks.. so there!
Please mod this post only if you think others should/n't read this. I have enough ego^H^H^Hkarma. Thanks!
Repetitive stress injuries can be cured or prevented by stretching. I've had problems with these in the past, with the tingling wrists and the numb palms and sometimes actual pain, and that goes away easily.
Carpal Tunnel Syndrome, on the other hand, can't. Some people get it and some people don't. I haven't ever heard of a study that shows that repetitive stress injuries lead to CTS, and I've seen at least one (don't have a ref) that doesn't show any significant correlation of CTS between occupations you'd expect and occupations you wouldn't. Although stress can make CTS hurt more, it doesn't seem to make it be there. This is true of a lot of diseases. Hot peppers don't cause ulcers; in fact, they might help ulcers by promoting mucus production. However, they make stuff hurt more, including ulcers, and might make people think they have ulcers when they really don't.
The trouble is that people confuse CTS and repetitive stress injuries. I assume that this woman has real, diagnosed CTS. In that case, it's just a condition, which responds well to surgery but not much else, and it was probably not caused by her job, but may have been made to hurt more.
In any event, it sounds as if Toyota made reasonable accommodation by switching her to another job. I also don't think it was heartless to put her back; if it really did get better, then it was a repetitive stress injury and not CTS, and that's perfectly appropriate, just like putting someone back on the basketball team after their knee heals. If, on the other hand, she had a diagnosis for CTS at the time, then it may have been heartless or may have been ignorant. However the fact that it took a while for the symptoms to come back is suspicious. With real CTS the pain would start right away, bang! unless there was some other inflammation in the same place that just added to the pain. In any event, the fact that whatever did get better seems to be pretty good evidence that it isn't permanent or long-term and so would not constitute grounds for a lawsuit under the ADA.
No, a democracy is a much broader term than that; it simply means government by the people, through majority opinion, whether that's through direct vote or through representation. A republic can often be used synonymously, but is usually somewhat more specific, referring to a state run by an elected official. You can check any print or online dictionary (here, here, and here for example.
I'm not sure why so many people on slashdot set such narrow definitions for these two words.
So companies can require people to perform jobs that are injurous to them? I know the Libertarian readers will probably just respond by saying, "Get a job that's not on an assembly line", but then they probably have sufficient education and wealth that they can actually get other kinds of work.
Isn't OSHA supposed to step in somewhere? Do companies actually not realize that it's in their interest to attempt to ensure that their workers' jobs can be performed without injuring them?
This is NOT the Court saying Toyota can require her to do something injurous to herself. It is the Court saying Toyota does not have to redesign a job that has not be found unsafe by OSHA so that it is not painful or aggrevating for her. That is a big difference.
You ask where OSHA is? Trust me, this is the auto injury and OSHA is there, probably with an inspector on the shop floor. OSHA has probility had this job redesigned several times to be safe for the average person. The average person does not have CTS so OSHA safety requirements don't apply.
She argued that her CTS was bad enough that it qualified as a disability under the ADA. If she had won than Toyota could have been required to make reasonable (as defined by the court) accomodations, but even then it would not be absolute (otherwise a blind person could sue if not hired as a paint color match tester for example and the employer would have to find a way to make it work).
The CTS defines a disability as interfering with major life activities of the average person. While making a living qualifies, making a living as a paint inspector does not. Why? Because while the average person does have a job, they do not have a job as a paint inspector.
Herb
Again, feel free to sentence me to death if my questions annoy you. I'll come back in 5 minutes anyway. -Sythi
> A little pain in your wrist that prevents you from typing is a
> sad excuse for not getting another kind of job.
Um, according to the facts of the case, she has a job in an assembly plant that requires her to use her hands above shoulder level for extended periods of time. There's no mention of typing, and there are currently no ergonomic standards for preventing Carpal Tunnel Syndrome due to this sort of work.
> You're only disabled if you insist that the only work you can carry
> out is done with a keyboard! Get another job and stop being a slacker.
Get some reading comprehension lessons and stop being a dope. There was no mention of keyboarding.
> Besides, the carpal tunnel syndrome is self-inflicted just
> like alcoholism and drug use. You should have thought about ergonomics
> and periodic rest before ruining your physique with the unnatural
> typing posture.
Again with the typing! I won't even comment on that. I will, however, comment on the situation in this case. To say that this woman's CTS is self inflicted is on some level true, but the same could be said of anyone working any job, and would remove any responsibility for any employer to safeguard its employees by blaming the employees for taking dangerous jobs in the first place. That's just plain silly. Just so you know, a large number of repetitive motion injuries are not typing injuries. Many are industrial in nature, stemming from factory floor work, vibration or poorly designed work areas. None of these things are (usually) within the worker's ability to change, it becomes difficult to blame the worker for simple laziness or bad planning.
Virg
but not for chasing secretaries around the office
Gotta give them credit for consitenty though, they don't remove a president from office for that either. Though in my more cynical days I suspect that is because they are all doing the same, and so they can't cast stones. (beind polititions non-cynical days are very limited, and normally don't last when I'm awake.
> Maybe you should have made contingency plans for the possibility that you might lose your fingers or vision in the future.
Most people have such a contingency, at least in corporate America. It's called disability insurance. That's not what this case is about. The person in question doesn't want to collect disability payments, she wants to use the Americans with Disabilities Act to get her employer to add accessibility modifications so she can do her job. It would be the same (in her eyes, but not in the eyes of the Supreme Court) as demanding wheelchair access to her workplace if she couldn't walk.
Virg
What works depends on the cause. CTS is a syndrome. That means that it's a collection of symptoms. They don't always have the same cause. Sometimes exercises make things worse instead of making things better. If it a chronic inflamation, then frequently exercises will help if you get the inflamation under control first. If it is not only chronic, but also mild, then it may be possible to use ibuprofen to get the inflamation under control. It is usually a bad idea to exercise while the inflamation is present (at least without being under close observation by a specialist in the field).
P.S.: IANA MD. This is only a warning, not a diagnosis or prescription for treatment.
I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
First not everyone that gets CTS is a computer user. It usually strikes factory line workers. My father works in a printer/binder shop [printing those IDG books is a million $ acct] on the line.
The older women who work there doing routine things often talked about 'early retirement'. This was getting CTS and going on SSDI. But years ago they stopped giving out SSDI for CTS because it can be fixed with simple surgury.
Sorry kids, it's only a temporary problem.
Get your Unix fortune now!
I suppose that, ultimately, it burns down as something that psychosomatically induced????
a) The Court's consideration of what an individual must prove to demonstrate a substantial limitation in the major life activity of performing manual tasks is guided by the ADA's disability definition. "Substantially" in the phrase "substantially limits" suggests "considerable" or "to a large degree," and thus clearly precludes impairments that interfere in only a minor way with performing manual tasks.
Most people spend 9+ hours at work. That makes it a very substantial part of a persons life.
Just cause she can brush her teeth they voted against her. Again, its a slap in the face by Judges who are appointed for life.
1. Can the patient feed herself? If she can, she doesn't qualify.
2. Does she have family members who can feed her? If so, she doesn't qualify.
3. Can she afford to pay someone to feed her? If so, she doesn't qualify.
4. Can she sign the neccesary paperwork? If she can, she's not disabled enough. If she can't, then we're ready to pay - as soon as we have her signature.
Slow down, cowboy! It has been 4 hours since you last posted. You must wait another few hours.
Speech recognition for hacking Perl, anyone?
Better that than using it for APL I suppose. But I think what you really need for hands-free Perl is a personal (i.e. trainable) facial expression encoding system.
-- MarkusQ