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IBM Announces First Linux-only Mainframes
A reader writes "The new Z-series mainframe for Linux, which costs $400,000 and is aimed at processing transactions at large businesses, is IBM's first mainframe computer sold without IBM's traditional z/OS mainframe operating system. More info at the IBM zSeries page" This is something that IBM and others of Big Iron vendors of *NIX have said - as Linux grows in maturity, they want to replace their *NIX with Linux. However, there's still work to be done in that area.
The link to the SourceForge Foundry is slightly broken. Correct link is here.
Try http://foundries.sourceforge.net/large/
(Use the Preview Button! Check those URLs! Don't forget the http://!)
Does it support Hot Swapping?
I would think hot swapping would be one feature truely worthy of a mainframe operating system... especially if you can all of the different possible parts of a mainframe and still keep all of your applications running 24/7.
The article cites cost concerns, but how much does using a linux reduce the price of a $400,000 machine? (Cost of ownership may well go down, but I'm asking about purchase price.)
Prime numbers are exactly what Alan Greenspan says they are -S. Minsky
(nb: The last IBM big-box I worked on was a first generation AS400 so this question may be dated)
I recall licensing of IBM's OSs to be fairly expensive, have they cut prices at all to reflect the fact that a lot (the bulk?) of the vanilla Linux development happens outside IBM, therefore costing them nothing?
Trolling is a art,
More coverage from the reg
Bill must be crying his eyes out right now.
Cyborg_monkey
> what's a server?
A person who if you don't tip them when you leave the restraunt the next time you visit will spill soup all over you?
Or the pile of junk in the corner of the office that makes alot of noise, has various people standing over it and muttering dire curse relating to bill gates and all in the computer industry (assuming os = Windows) or in the case of linux... now where did I leave that boot stone-slate as its so rarley needed...
--- Users are like bacteria -> Each one causing a thousand tiny crises until the host finally gives up and dies.
I'd just like to correct something here: they aren't replacing the previous zSeries operating system, they're adding another choice. Now you can choose between z/OS, z/VM, and Linux. While there is something called Unix System Services that run within z/OS, it's not a stand-alone operating system; it's rund under z/OS, not by itself.
And with Linux, you do loose a lot of the RAS characteristics that z/OS provides, as well as 40 years of compatibility with existing workloads. Linux is being sold as something to run new workloads on, workloads that z/OS previously wouldn't have been considered for.
Silly signature limit . . .
"Nobody ever got fired for buying IBM" has today been replaced with "Nobody ever got fired for buying Microsoft." However, in the case of the IBM iServers and zServers, Linux is replacing a proprietary Unix, not a Microsoft OS.
This is a step forward for Linux (although perhaps a smaller one that at first glance, because you already could get IBM servers with Linux--these are just the first Linux-only servers) but not a step backwards for Microsoft.
That seems to be the trend now, anyway--remember when Amazon said they saved millions of dollars by using Linux? Those Linux systems replaced Unix systems, not Microsoft Windows systems.
I thought Z/OS was the meta OS on which all the VM's where runnning, eacht VM containing a Linux installation. How do they do the controlling of the different VM's? Does Linux for Z series have their own meta/VM controls?
ZDNet have a recent story about a company called Boscov's Department Stores replacing a lot of NT machines with one IBM zSeries. From the article: "Boscov's, with 36 locations in six states in the mid-Atlantic region, scrapped its client/server architecture and is in the process of consolidating 70 IBM NetFinity 8500 and 500 servers running Windows NT 4.0, on a recently purchased IBM zSeries 900 mainframe running SuSE Linux Enterprise Server 7 as a virtual machine."
and haven't touched z/os at all ... but was it a 'nix?
Jack Valenti and the MPAA are to technology as the Boston strangler is to the woman home alone
No matter what you think of this and that IBM makes some killer stuff, the invented and locked down (and subsequently lost) the PC market, they have RULED the mainframe market for 30 years plus, and a fact many may not be aware, IBM has so much cash ammassed, it could cease all sales and continue to operate its current employee base for over 50 years.
.....:)
There is an OLD addage, noone ever got fired for buying IBM, it has held true for decades as well, Many others have tried and failed to compete with IBM in the mainframe market, BIG companies, that are alas no more, I am sure this is what will happen with HP/Compaq too, Burroughs , Honywell, where are they now ?????
IBM has made some bbbbbaaaaaadddd choices in software on the desktop over the years, but will stick linux to the forefront, they are advertising the hell out of it and this is good, it gives managment a confidence in Linux that would be nearly IMPOSSIBLE to gain elsewhere.
My sincere hope is that IBM contributes what it should to Linux as a whole. Big corporations can be stingy IBM is no exception, I just hope the people there dont think Linux developers will forever develop for their platforms with no return, I hope that they dont se the contributions of linux coders as a "bottomless well" , I dont think this will happen they have contributeed code to other projects, good code. Apache etc....
GO BIG BLUE CRUSH THE MS INFADELS !
I wonder what MS woulda said if Ibm came to them again and said , yeah we need and OS for this mainframe, (MS REPLY. Well we have the blah proccesor liscencing on Windows XP, it
Sig went tro...aahemmm.....fishing........
but I doubt Bill is. The losers in this are: professional Unix developers and companies that pay their bills by sellign Unix proprietary software.
Eventually it may affect Bill -- after it's killed proprietary Unix development.
http://foundries.sourceforge.net/large/"
Yup, sure is!
This is great news for the poor folk trying to convince their management to use Linux instead of another *nix or Windows NT/2K/whatever. This is also where Linux will stay for the time being, and maybe that's a good thing. When you look at what's required of a server versus a desktop (in terms of stability and performance) I would much rather have Linux prove itself in the server market and then move to the desktop. Think about Windows' Desktop->Server migration - we all know how messy that's turned out. Linux was rarely offered as an installed server option 5 years ago, and today it's replaced an enterprise level OS. My bet is on the same sort of track for the desktop market.
-Dean
Sun must be sweating bullets.
But IBM still hasn't addressed the central problem with mainframes: In spite of the fact that they can run 16 processors, mainframes are still abysmally slow machines. The average 16 processor mainframe is a 120 MIPS machine, whereas the average 1.5 GHz desktop system is a 3000 MIPS machine. I like the mainframe architecture, but if IBM doesn't do something about the processor speed shortfall soon, mainframes will go the way of the dinosaur. It is becoming increasingly difficult for businesses to justify spending $500,000 for machines that are slower than PC's costing 1/100th of the price.
Granted, the mainframe has a good architecture. But why should my company spend $400,000 for a Linux mainframe, when we could run Linux faster on a $2,000 PC server?The society for a thought-free internet welcomes you.
Will IBM be making any considerations to those companies who have a lot invested in AS/400's in helping them convert all of their in-house applications to Linux? Or is this going to be used to fill a separate niche?
So you don't think you need to pay for things? Good luck with that.
Is the mainframe wireless? Is it handheld?
Getting a z series does make some sense in cases where a company could consolidate hundreds of PC's into fewer z series mainframes.
Consulting Times has a article which gives a "real world" cost justification example.
I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed or numbered.....my life is my own.
iBM? Since when did Apple buy IBM.
Will this mean that IBM will finally replace OS/2 as the bootstrap and control server?
Replacing that with Linux would be a nice start!
For those that do not have the benifit of a 390 sitting behind them, it is very disconcerting to have that big black IBM monitor on top of it, because it is running OS/2 on a Celeron board inside the mainframe to control the whole show.
If HP would hurry up with the nanotech breakthrough, I could be wearing one of these mainframes on my keychain.
IBM has made some bbbbbaaaaaadddd choices in software on the desktop over the years, but will stick linux to the forefront, they are advertising the hell out of it and this is good, it gives managment a confidence in Linux that would be nearly IMPOSSIBLE to gain elsewhere.
They did not make a bad choice in developing OS/2. They just outdid themselves. The win 3.11 compatibility was probably part of the reason there was so little OS/2 native software available. Microsoft didn't develop for OS/2, and they already had the "standard" for office suites.
OS/2 was (technologically) about 8 years ago where Linux wishes to be in the future. Only it wasn't open sourced and free.
On a low-end pentium they made an OS that would rock your socks with voice recognition, stability and a kick-ass shell. Allegedly, OS/2 scales like a champ if you stick multiple processors in it.
However, the market wasn't there. Why get a new OS to run windows? Now you'd need 2 os licences to run word!
Stop the brainwash
If a $400.000 server has (virtually) no downtime, and the $2000 server has several hours, that could really make a big difference in the balance sheet.
Not only does downtime mean lost transactions, it could also mean lost customer confidence.
Also, your $2000 estimate is off. A $2000 pc server, WITH a backup unit?
Stop the brainwash
MIPS = Meaningless Indicator of Processor Speed
..."
The mainframe is MIPS per CPU, so the 16-way box is 16*120. Also, 120 MIPS is slow these days for a mainframe.
Write a simple memory intensive program and try it on a mainframe and try it on a PC. I guarantee that you won't get 3000 MIPS out of a desktop, even if the data fits in cache. Many reasons for this....
The s390 ISA is definitely CISC, you can copy a whole string with MVCL, that count's as one instruction. Do this on RISC machines and it might take a loop and execute dozens of instructions. Hence "Meaningless
About 2 years ago I wrote some C code to recursively quicksort 20M random integers and tried it on a bunch of platforms. A mainframe that was about 1 cycle behind fastest available gave me about the same single processor performance as a 1GHz PC, both a little slower than Alpha.
The big differentiator is memory architecture. How much time do you lose for a cache miss? Most processors only operate at 20-30% of theoretical maximum speed on big problems.
Memory speed has not kept up, that 2GHz box you dream about is not twice as fast as a 1GHz box, particularly if you're crunching a lot of data.
But most their savings are due to improved scalability and easier maintenance (especially for disaster recovery).
Read the article, all the arguments for the switch are there.
Store chain is sold on Linux [ZDNET]
Black holes occur when God divides by zero.
Has IBM been Slashdotted already, or is it just my connection. I'm trying to access the site, no response. Ping, no response. I know the effect can be deadly with smaller sites but this is IBM that we're talking about. Businesses thrive off of them. Besides, this is prime geek sleeping hour, except for the working geek.
I wonder what is the performance like on one of these machines and if a supercomputing cluster of that cost would give more performance in different applications. I am fully aware that with IBM's way, the computer simpler but some people might get better use out of a penguin cluster instead of a single large machine.
OK, I had three hours of sleep and I'll shutup now.
24 inches of shelf space devoted to deciphering those amazing IBM diagnostic codes (and other signs of thought put into how the user's going to cope when things wander off the main path).
I always used to sort of sneer at "undecipherable diagnostic codes" and the necessity to look them up. Now I long for the days of sufficiently detailed (RELEVANTLY detailed) diagnostics that I could understand and solve the problem without further futzing around.
Have IBM and other big iron vendors actually said this? Of course the linux community speculates about it, and there are good arguments both for and against it, but I am not aware of any official IBM or other source saying "we're phasing out this OS in favor of Linux."
I submitted a story about the FreeBSD release for this, but for some reason they won't take it...
Not to sound like flamebait, but there have been alot of issues with 2.4 lately, it doesnt really seem stable enough that i'd put it on my mainframe, theoretically speaking. Problems range from fs corruption to sync() bugs, etc. Sure, its a nice desktop OS but I don't think it's ready for the mainframes.
I have been working in the mainframe world for a few years now, and one thing you have to understand about mainframe operations, is that since it's conception the #1 priority is UPTIME. Speed was number 8 or 9.
Only recently (last 7 years) has speed been a considiration, and that was thanks to the PC revolution. But again, you were alwsys dealing with two camps: Mainframe guys, and PC guys.
So all this means is that there is another choice for people who want the " 5 9's",the holy grail of computing, and not Windows, Unix or any other platform other than the mainframe can deliver that.
That $2000 server will have nowhere near the hardware reliability of the $400,000 mainframe. When the hardware fails on a mainframe it is a dire event, resulting in a team of engineers being put on the next flight out to the customers site.
Best Slashdot Co
(Shot of IBM's new server standing alone in a server room)
ANNOUNCER: "If you think we're overcompensating for something with our really, really big mainframe running linux..."(Cut to shot of a dozen small servers being carted off) "...You're absolutely right."
The average 16 processor mainframe is a 120 MIPS machine, whereas the average 1.5 GHz desktop system is a 3000 MIPS machine.
Mainframes run up to about 200 MIPS per processor and with multi-processor overhead a 16-way zSeries tops out somewhat below 3,000 MIPS. These are mainframe MIPS, not what you get as BogoMIPS out of Linux at boot (AFAIK, this is some quick integer timing loop calculation). There's a reason it's called BogoMIPS, troll.
IBM has successfully run over 40,000 Linux images on a mainframe (under VM). Try that on your 1.5Ghz desktop. Ever heard of Transactions Per Second (TPS) in four and five figures, I/O rates in GB/sec, multi-terabyte databases, 99.999% uptime for years? That's mainframe territory, and I sincerely doubt that you've ever seen it, or ever will.
I don't mean that as a negative, btw, its just good business sense. Every server I own is IBM (small stuff). Now I have more reason to keep it that way. I am NOT a programmer or kernel hacker, but even I can see the advantages for the switch.
Tequila: It's not just for breakfast anymore!
Can you even build a beowulf cluster of these?
Without Linux, how long would it take for Microsoft to take the whole server market away from Sun? The trend was set when they released two different versions of NT, "workstation" and "server". The fact that they don't have any version called "server" anymore may reflect a reality check they have done, realizing it will not be so easy after all.
It's definitely an image
Imagine
John Lennon
Imagine there's no heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people
Living for today...
Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace...
You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will be as one
Imagine no possessions
I wonder if you can
No need for greed or hunger
A brotherhood of man
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world...
You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will live as one
Amazon had a mix of Unix and M$ (more M$ than Unix).
Burlington was mostly Unix.
Boscov had 70 aix and >500 M$.
telia dropped mostly Solaris.
Home Depot is apparently going to drop all M$.
more and more are showing up and while they are replacing some unix, it is also replacing an equal or bigger percentage of M$.
As the economy worsens and the companies that are making profits are running linux, well...
It is exactly what happened in the late 80's early 90's when M$ was the correct way to go.
We just bought a $160K RS6000 "p-Series" and the AIX 4.3.3 operating system with unlimited users was included for free ($0.00) but the upgrade to AIX 5.1L will cost us about $300. Not too bad.
...we don't see too many Anonymous Cowards claiming that Linux is a "toy" operating system in this particular discussion.
I guess 400k$ is a little expensive for a toy!
Reminder: find a new sig
Lots o' programmers out there waiting for GNOBOL
Though I'm waiting for HIPERSOCKETS which would allow me to afford better use of OSA.
Is WLM support working yet?
Have they licked the scheduler problem yet? That was an inherent problem of the Linux kernel expecting to be the only OS instance on the hardware and constantly grabbing the clock to do more or less nothing.
Next stop - Checkpoint firewall code on a Linux instance on the mainframe and goodbye to that gated-ipchains crap.
My company purchased one for web hosting
... are switched.
:)
The system uses VM as a base but has multiple instances of SuSE running. It is able to run up to 10000 instances of Linux which makes it a data center in a box.
There is no bus and the communication between the processor banks, memory,
First time I've seen it my eyes jumped out of the sockets.
Good Job IBM
The big vendors (including IBM) never said that they wanted to replace their proprietary unix systems with linux. IBM said (in a very marketingish type of way) that if Linux could do all the things AIX did, they would consider it.
In addition, AIX never ran on the zseries computers. So it has nothing to do with a mainframe running linux. The two are separate issues.
This is good news for Linux; but its not accurate to say that it has anything to do with linux displacing AIX, or any other unix.
Hot Damn! It's the Soggy Bottom Boys!
...imagine a Beowulf cluster of /. posters making lame jokes about one of these.
What's a mainframe? Never heard of it.
-- SIGFPE
It's not the maintenance that is the problem, things like configuration management and data integrity are more important. If you have a hundred servers, then you have a hundred places to check that everything is in sync. If you are running a small shop with a dozen or so machines and one administrator then they can keep all the state in their heads. When you get up to hundreds then the state is larger than one person can easily cope with and you start having to communicate state to others. With hundreds of boxes, it is easy to overlook things, with fewer boxes, the communication is easier, and cheaper.
The other thing is CPU residency. Lots of small boxes wastes CPU power because they tend to be devoted to one task and are only capable of that task. The problem is, they are so small that you can't add other tasks to them so you need a new box... Generally, CPU residency on small boxes runs about 10%, with mainframes, this can rise to 90%. Take two tasks - one runs during the day, one runs during the night. Conventional wisdom would allocate two small boxes, one per task wasting them for most or their life. Mainframe usage would run them both on the mainframe - this gives each process more power when they run and doesn't waste the box when they don't. Most traffic tends to be peaky but only for a short period of time so if the box is large enough to hold them both, you get a saving whilst still making all the tasks faster.
Small boxes are good when you need maximum cycles per buck and the task is easily partitionable with minimal interprocess communication and the tasks are continuous. When the tasks are not easily partitionable, need lots of IPC or are peaky then larger boxes make sense.
The thing to remember is that where the scale is large, you need to make use of that scale to get maximum performance. You don't see chemical plants using hundreds of small vats, they use a few really big ones. With these systems they are used at a scale where communications and simply keeping track of what is going on is a major exercise and hence a major expense.
My Experience? Well - put it this way, the SunFire 6800 turned up a few weeks ago, the 4800 turns up on wednesday as part of a plan to replace a Tandem mainframe and they will be sitting next to quite a few racks holding Sun E3500s, E450s, E250s, t1s, HP netservers, IBM RS6000s and SGI Origin 2000s and indeed a MacOS server or twenty. A lot of our comms talk to Stratus mainframes and the machine room cooling plants are a more pressing problem than CPU speed.
I know that it doesn't highlight linux so much, but it's nice to see linux dunk the ball once.
I love the part where the 'middleware' character doesn't get any fan mail. No one wants his autograph.... hilarious. Even my computer-stupid girlfriend loves it.
Whoever does those IBM commercials is a genius.
My vote for the Super Bowl:
ANNOUNCER: "Now, All Your Base Are Belong To US!"
[shows a zSeries]
"Imagine a beowulf cluster... of these babies!"
Get your Unix fortune now!
or is its kernel ridden with assumptions about character sets?
where do I go? Since this topic has attracted all the ./ mainframers maybe one of you guys can suggest some books/websites/etc. for:
- An overview of mainframe architecture and operations, not too "marketing like", one that assumes a basic computer science background but not mainframe
- A kind of basic "how to" for someone who is starting to program on these beasts. Cover basic JCL, TSO commands, file (oops, dataset) management, etc.
I've been trying to find something like this, as I've had to pick up this topic quickly. All I can find are the IBM manuals on-line (too detailed, and assume lots 'o prior MF background) or some rather superficial marketing type books (e.g. "Exploring IBM S/390 Computers") with little practical technical meat.
Can you Mainframe guys help a poor suffering UNIX-type get up to speed on z/OS, OS/390, MVS or whatever its called nowadays?
If your children ever found out how lame you are, they'd murder you in your sleep
Well, im looking all over IBM's web site and cannot find any information on the processor [types] used, or how you configure the hardware (ie, how many processors do you put in at a time, where do they go, memory type, fun stuff like that).
Anyone have any light to shed on this?
"Stuff... In my home!? NEVER!" - Zim on Invader Zim
"I want the toilet seat!" - Little Dog on Two Stupid Dogs
If I have 1000 individual PCs running at full load, and I replace them with this machine, does that mean they will still run at the same rate? What is the maximum number of virtual PCs you can run without seeing a performance hit? If I run fewer virtual servers, does that mean each gets more bang? Whats the scoop?
Synergies are basically awesome, and they're even better when you leverage them. -PA
I just wanted to let you know that I nutted in my sister's ass after reading your post.
Thanks ok bye!
If you're at NIU, you've got two excellent mainframe scholars available for your questions. Go hunt down Dr. Robert Rannie or Micheal Stack. Neither one of them will support your "consensus" of 120MIPS total for 16 engines. Try over 10 times that number.
http://www-1.ibm.com/servers/eserver/zseries/900op en.html
Check out this page for a laugh... IBM says that their new servers will let you run 31 bit applications!
IBM says: "The world's first dedicated Linux mainframe server!"
I say: "The world's first dedicated Linux server requiring a 30-year mortgage."
Let me just whip out the old VISA...
? cid=70636
http://store.sun.com/catalog/doc/BrowsePage.jhtml
I'm suprised they quote prices for things like that online (it's cool!). Big ticket items usually require talking to a sales rep. Check out the product configuration screen: it's like shopping at Dell or the Apple store, except with three extra zeros on the end of everything.
(288 GIGAbytes of *ram*! Yeehaa!)
He he!!!
:-)
:-)
I note you went for the top-of-the-range mama though
Let's just say that nobody pays those prices - any company which does business with Sun negotiates some form of corporate discount. I ain't saying what ours are (for obvious reasons) but, well, let's just say that we would only be paying 6 figures, not 7, for the first option on your selection
People should not be afraid of their governments - Governments should be afraid of their people.
In the past, some companies (such as Oracle) have offered licensing terms based on the number of CPUs. So, a 16-way zSeries running, say, 10,000 Linux images could really bring down the average cost for licensing, couldn't it? Of course, 10,000 Oracle instances would probably kill this box no matter how superior its I/O channels are, but it does present interesting options for an ASP offering.