Slashdot Mirror
Tiny Linux PDA: Filewalker
senseimoron writes: "Check out the Filewalker, a new Linux-based handheld, with a very unique (one-handed) means of inputting characters. It is too difficult to explain, just checkout the site. I'd be interested to see how well the interface works." The English link may be more useful. From the price listed on the site, it would sell for US$560.
Seems like my thumb would fall off in a week if I had to turn a wheel for every character I typed. Does this input method have any advantages other than it being one-handed?
Your signatures belong to me.
???
no way, that's more than the zaurus
which has a faster cpu ,
a real kbd
ans a nice color display.
etc.
I know i will get modded down for this....
but does linux really belong in the PDA market?
PalmOS and WindowsCE are already very established, and people trust/use them. Also, these OSes were MADE for PDAs, instead of being ported.
Is it the fact that it is open source, although windows ce is already open source?
I know you can run more applications with linux on the pda, but how many applications do you actually need for your pda that are not availible for windows ce and palmos?
I am sure that hackers will enjoy it, but is there really a market for linux pdas?
With 649,- EUR, I think it's a bit on the expensive
side. Especially since I'm perfectly content with a
paper address book.
But if I can install my own sowftware easily, it
could still be a neat toy.
I've heard about this type of input before. Anything other than a stylus and I'm happy. What I'm really waiting for is direct brain input.
"Hello. I am your PDA. You can call me Wintermute."
A revolutionary instead of evolutionary means of inputting data. Whether it works or not - this is a good thing.
.
I have no doubts, that it will require a few days of toying around to get accustomed to, but since you have 3 characters at your disposal for every turn of the wheel, I think the wheel-spinning will not break your thumb off.
Imagine for a moment that you have become proficient at "typing" in data in this way. You have the use of your second hand for other things like holding the phone, etc. when using this device.
No one should bear any illusions that this thing will have any kind of mainstream success. It's obviously designed as a geek toy
Too bad I recently bought a m505 or else I'd give this thing a try. I'm not too fond of the palms graffiti either, on long texts I use the pop-up screen keyboard instead.
Does this input method have any advantages other than it being one-handed?
It sure does!
You can jack off to shemale porn on the tiny screen while at the same time writing your mother an e-mail message.
This is one of the many possibilities of having a multi-threaded OS like Linux running on your PDA.
The jog dial + 3 buttons seems a fairly rapid method of text input but I'm not sure it will be convenient for things like pocket Quake.
Also no mention is made whether the screen is touch sensitive which would be a very useful addition for web browsing which all handhelds should be capable of...
hmm, ok that was stupid.... should not make a big deal of a post
...scratching my palm with a stick, is that you'd get 32 keystrokes with combinations of five buttons. given an extra button (or a combination) to change modes an perhaps cursor keys, you'd have a cool way to input text to a palmtop. please, someone make me a handheld with just linux, a couple of consoles and some standard gnu utils!
I mean it is all very nice and all that they have Linux running a PDA but what use is it to me if it can only sync to a Windows desktop.
All the Linux based PDAs seem to have the same problem... Windows desktop only. I can understand that it requires a Windows desktop for economic reasons. I already have a PalmVx that has several Linux desktop environments to choose from and they work fine.
-DU-...etc...
"Don't sweat the technique."
Well, I don't know you can't really tell from the pictures, but it might be that you just push up and down buttons like a joystick. I think turning a wheel for each letter would probably get old quick.
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
You can download and view the source to WinCE, but you can't legaly do anything with it.
:P). I mean the whole point of a PDA is to have something 'cool' really, and for some people linux does make it cooler. If people are willing to buy these things, why not use Linux?
But anyway, that question is kind of stupid. I mean you could have asked the same thing about linux on the desktop a couple of years ago, I mean we had macOS and windows and Unix for people to use.
And I think that the really important thing to remember here is that, for the most part, PDAs are toys. Even the loweliest, most out of date used Palm could do just about anything you really needed organizer wise. People buy these things because they're fun. Sure, they might not admit it, but you really don't need a PC you can fit in your pocket that can play MP3s and Divx movies. People want those things because it's fun.
And Linux is fun for some people. It's also cheaper then licensing WinCE or Palm (and it gets you free play on slashdot
(Btw, I just hate people who always have to ask 'do we really need this' I mean, do we really need anything do we need video game systems, or fast cars or DVD players?)
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
...with a very unique (one-handed) means of inputting characters...
Hello? Haven't you guys ever heard of a Nokia 7110? There's even a Quicktime movie showing how the 7110's NaviRoller works.
Feel that power? That's mah MOUSING FINGER
with a very unique (one-handed) means of inputting characters.
Something is either "unique" or it is not. There are not levels or gradations of uniqueness. Unique means "one of a kind." Have you ever thought of saying that something was "somewhat one of a kind" or "very one of a kind"? Of course not.
P.S. This is not "off-topic". If it can't be discussed here, where can it be discussed?
...with a very unique (one-handed) means of inputting characters. It is too difficult to explain, just checkout the site.
/. editors, can't you at least say "you select characters using a jog wheel and three buttons"? How hard is that? And furthermore, it's not that far away from the method my Sony 300-CD changer uses to select letters. If you want to put in the title for a CD that doesn't have CD-Text on it, you use the jog wheel. Big deal.
If you can't explain an input device in the space of a Slashdot story, you're either a simpleton or the device is too complicated. In either case, I'm not interested. This Slashdot story writeup reminds me of a zillion business models that I read during the dot-com craze. "I can't explain it in just a paragraph, but it's going to be revolutionary, really. You have to see this." Whatever.
Come on,
What's your damage, Heather?
Ich Spreak Kine Dustch (I speak no German!) Did anyone else find it hard to read? http://www.invair.de/FILEWALKER/filewalker.html Am i Doomed to e-mail this to one of my german friends and have him translate it for me? I'll show you, I'll make my own language, their will be 1 word... LongLiveMacOS :P
"You win again Gravity!" -Futurama (Zapp)
[ahem]
"Thru the darkness
of Future Past
the magician longs to see
one chants out
between two worlds
File - walk with me."
Sorry.
-- Oh Well
Does PocketPC belong in PDA's? After all, Palm OS was very established in the PDA-market and people trusted it.
Lesbian Nazi Hookers Abducted by UFOs and Forced Into Weight Loss Programs - -all next week on Town Talk.
Get your useless 560 dollar palm today!
For 560 dollars you think it would actually SAVE you time...
Without a good, clean data migration path, these devices will stagnate and orphan themselves off.
Without a unified SDK for these devices, using a common data storage format or ruleset for conversion, these devices will just die off. Each one ends up being a one-off.
If these companies are going to try to make a successful Linux-based PDA, they must fill and follow the 4 S's.
The hardware, however cool, is irrelevant unless I can get to my data, and get my data into the applications I need to use it with; desktop, other PDA, cell phone, whatever.
I've dealing with PDA development and data/application integration and issues like this since PDAs first came out, and I know what's missing and what needs to be improved. These Linux PDA vendors are completely missing the point.
$ su # rm -R / Morons can't trash linux system even if they want to!
Desi Noise, Live!
Its actually alot faster to use button combinations rather than a roller wheel. You don't need alot of buttons to do that, either.
Or, if you want a good but portable keyboard, use a one handed one:
http://www.halfkeyboard.com/
Either of these concepts would work much better in a PDA than a roller wheel - where you have multiple rolls then a press for each character. Unlike every other alternative (graffiti, keyboard, half keyboard) this one takes multiple actions per character, and you would have to look at the screen to know which character you were at because its state dependent.
My 2 cents worth
There is no cryptographic solution to the problem where the intended receiver and the attacker are the same entity.
It looks cool, but the input method is ATTROCIOUS.
Do you have ANY idea how long it would take to type a simple word with that thing? Press a button to choose the top row of letters, then roll the wheel to pick the letter out of it and then press the "select" key or whatever.
My guess is you could average about 5 or 10 words per minute *maximum*. More likely, half that. This is just a horrible way of entering data.
Accept voice commands, gestures... something... but not this!
I have a Nokia 8890 telephone, and it has the standard numeric keypad with "ABC", "DEF" combinations per key. I can press each key only once, and it figures out by the combination what word I want to type. It's not perfect, but it seems this "smart" technology should be standard for input into small devices. So basically with 10 keys I can type very quickly.
"Hello, World", 17 errors, 31 warnings
Do they make one for lefties? Or is it just like everything else in this right-hand centric world?
Damnit, Jim, I'm an anarchist, not a F@#$!^& doctor!
This input type depends on visual feedback. You have to choose the character among a list by scrolling throw it. A typical character selection would look like this:
1. You look at the currently selected char.
2. Is it your desired character?
Yes: Press the selection key, think of the next character, and restart at 1.
No: You estimate the alphabetical distance between the currently selected char and your desired. If it's "far", hit the scrollwheel fast. If it's "near", hit the scrollwheel gently. Start at 1.
The problem is, you will always have to look at the display while you're searching, which makes the process dependent on visual feedback. Just think back to the times when you where new to QWERTY (or for those who can't remember, think of the times while trying DVORAK). You were looking at the keyboard searching for your key to press, ackwardly slowing your lexical progress.
The revolution in typing speed has accoured that moment as you don't depend on the visual feedback any longer, freeing a lot of mental processing time for hand, finger, eye coordination.
The scrollwheel is as slow as my mobile phone sms writing interface.
...trying to type emails on their lighters after a night out...
What's left? Voice is the only thing that really comes to mind, but that has obvious limitations. The newer "natural handwriting" recognizers are a step up from the Palm things, but I for one would not be able to use one since even I can't read my handwriting (plus I write far too slowly anyway).
So are we stuck until a way is figured out to stick in a 1394 port at the base of the neck? Any innovative suggestions?
sic transit gloria mundi
those pictures of the guy holding it with it on are the same as it with the device off and the screen on it looks like it has been put there in photoshop or somethng when the device is shown on. ohh well maby they had to do that for some reason.
The Filewalker is definately interesting, but the text input method seems like it would be a pain. The biggest drawbacks are:
An interesting alternative would be a device like this that used a chording keyboard. These were pioneered by a British company called Microwriter who built a device called the Agenda back in the early '80s. This had a text entry system that uses five keys - different combinations ("chords") of keys generate different letters. It takes a while to learn the chords, but once you know them you can type one-handed, relatively rapidly and without having to look at the screen. Chording keyboards may also be less liable to cause RSI.
For more information about chording keyboards, see this FAQ
Sailing over the event horizon
points:
1)The roller is nice but I'm sure that there is no feed back on that roller (other than the visual chart at the bottom of the screen). If there was a way that you could feel or hear which column you were in that would allow one to learn the system and to input with out looking at the device all the time.
2)This system has potential but it's not perfect by any means, it appears that this is an input system that is designed for some one walking some where and needs to input some text, but this cant be the only way to input text. An external keyboard is great for taking notes in class or in meetings, where a graffiti type system is usually best when the user needs to add text when the device is in the cradle. I have a visor and i would love to see a system like this for my device but I'd only choose to use it about 30% because I'm not using my device all that often while I'm up and about. Some on the other hand might be on there feet more often.
This looks like another Right Handed biased product. I have a Kyocera Smart Fone, and being Palm dirived it is also Right Handed biased ...
Well We left handers have jut been ignored one more time aka BVD underwear with the flap in the wrong direction
* Carthago Delenda Est *
PDAs are toys.
That's what they were saying about PCs 20 years ago.
Even the loweliest, most out of date used Palm could do just about anything you really needed organizer wise.
Funny, I just counted it up, and I have over a meg of productivity applications and data that I use every day. Hardly something the lowliest Palm could handle.
Just because some people use Palms as toys doesn't mean they're just toys. I don't really use mine as a toy. I use it for productivity.
People may not need to play MP3s and Divx movies, but it's certainly plausible that somebody could one day use similar technology to turn their PDA into a Dick Tracy-like hand held videoconference machine. More likely, they'll find some other use that neither one of us has thought of. In the meantime, people who use the PDA for productivity can listen to music as a value-add.
Early adopters are what they are because they think the technology is fun. Just because the technology is just starting to mature beyond that stage doesn't mean there are no serious applications for PDAs.
I own a Sony cell phone with one of these jog-wheels, and personally I see this as a great input method. You can easily go up to 8 clicks with an easy roll, so going from the (abc) to (pqr) is easy. I also own a Palm, and I still have to look at it while writing in grafity because it's so easy to mess up a character. So what we have here is a solution that only uses one hand, even if it no easier to input text. Any of you out there that drive/talk on the phone/smoke/use palm/drink coffee will be able to appreciate that!
Bah!
If neither of the two criteria is given, the technology might still succeed - in a niche market. I can see this technology in some industrial environment, where the operator has only one hand available. But the mass market? Nah....
Under capitalism man exploits man. Under communism it's the other way around.
-Don
Take a look and feel free: http://www.PieMenu.com
The English site lists the price as 649 Euros, with the Euro being 0.9 of a dollar, we are looking at more like $600 instead of $60. At $60 this thing is interesting, at $90 it's interesting, above $200 it's not even registering 0.5% of the marketplace and at $600 I doubt they will get enough preorders to get out of the prototype phase.
www.jackasscritics.com
If that scroll wheel clicks into place a little when you change positions, I could see 'touch-typing' with it. You'd just have to get used to the relative positions of the 'keys' via scroll wheel position. Not too terribly different from touch-typing on a keyboard, I would think.
But then, we don't know what the thing feels like yet, so we can't really make that call.
> What's left? Voice is the only thing that really comes to mind, but that has obvious limitations
What are the obvious limitations of speech input? For me this is not so obvious. Todays mobile CPUs are strong enough to run a speech recognition engine. You would still need a headset though (because of background noise). But, actually speech input is what we all want, isnt it? You could blow away all grafitti, keyboards and jog dials when it comes to input speed.
You are on the bus, there's 60 people around you, each one is trying to talk into their PDA - that's the kind of thing I meant. Basically they'd not only be hard to use in any public place, but also pretty rude.
sic transit gloria mundi
I just realized that WinCE spells WINCE!!!!
Thats even better than mSEXchange.
This is remindes me of the Tab project at Xerox PARC: http://www.parc.xerox.com/csl/members/want/papers/ parctab-pcs-dec95.pdf . The Tab has a series of keys down the side for input.
I remember watching a show where the mic for the security was in the earpiece, it worked by listen to the vibrations up the jaw bone. No background noise. (Can't get to the main page maybe removed here's the google cache BBC Online - Tomorrow's World - Stories)
What about throat mic's again no background noise.
I do think that Nokia have got a good solution with the predictive spelling on their cellphones.
Does anyone know what kind of laptop is pictured in the photo? It looks pretty cool, almost as much as the Apple PowerBook...
It's not really the background noise that I am worried about - it's the being a jackass who constantly walks around seemingly talking to himself. And people will only be getting more and more hand-held devices of various sorts.
sic transit gloria mundi
It's actually huge. Think crowded trains, like in Japan. I always wondered what the whole i-mode success was based on, until I went there last october. Thousands of people, stuck in a train for an hour or more, holding on with one hand. So what do you do? You play with your i-mode phone with your other hand. Thats why all the phone models there are long and thin, so you can operate the phone and text input with one hand. Even if it's slower than a keyboard, and the screen sucks it's better than looking at the dandruff on the person next to you.
The URL for the English version is
_ english.html
http://www.invair.de/FILEWALKER/English/hauptteil
Well, there's always "subvocalization." I'm not sure what it is, but it sure shows up in a lot of sci-fi books.
-Jeff
-Vercingetorix
"Necessitas non habet legem." -St. Augustine
Please see my comment on this:
http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=25075&cid=2724 965
The gist of it is that Linux is suited to many different types of devices. Windows CE is not by any stretch of the imagination "Open Source". And it is definitely not Free Software.
As another poster has mentioned what good is source that you can't even legally compile? The only purpose it serves is that if someone were to look at it for purposes of reimplementing parts of it correctly (e.g. for Wine) they'd get a big nasty fat lawsuit slapped on 'em by MS. No thanks. Couple this with the fact that you must sign up for an MS passport to get this stuff and thus they know who downloaded it you can rest assured that MS will most definitely go after anyone who releases rewrites of Windows code after having viewed this.
I've looked at your user info page, trying to find anything actually indicating that you are in fact Charles Petzold. At least I suppose you don't hide the fact that you work for MS. And if you really want to know why people want to use Linux for everything then start using it. Start programming with it. From the sounds of your other comments you have played with Linux programming but you seem to fail to understand the fundamental differences in architecture. That works both ways. I am writing a program right now for work and am really pissed about all this overlapped IO crap. Why isn't there just a damn "select()" call? Why can't everything be a file descriptor? What is this WaitForMultipleObjects crap they have tried to pass of as select but can't even because for all intents and purposes you really /HAVE/ to go multithreaded in some cases because you can't just add something to your GUIs main loop such as "when data is available to read from the pipe, return a message and process as usual". Or maybe there is but I sure as hell haven't found a way.
Anyway, enough ranting about the broken WinAPI for now. I really hope you find some time to actually use and program on a Linux system. You won't look back.
I don't know about anyone else, but I acually
use my Visor for everyday functions. Sure, I
could likely use a paper and pencil organizer, but
I'd lose the quick search function which allows
me to actually find a scribbled note once I make one
Oh, and it's a lot smaller than carrying around
the two or three books I tend to be reading at any
given time
While Graffiti and other character recognition schemes (e.g. Jot) annoy the snot out of me for anything other than entering names and dates, I find the most usable, consistent, and fast, both in the long run and today as far as input into a PDA is still real handwriting recognition. We're talking about the Apple Newton MP2x00 or a WinCE device with ParaGraph's CalliGrapher installed. Having used both quite a bit, it's the only way to go. It's natural and quick to write both natural language texts and even code, depending on the language.
:-/ I just did an informal test on my iPAQ 3150, and I got around 45 minutes/min. I wrote for two minutes, and then counted the words, excluding half of the tiny words (a, it, is, I) and divided by two. Not bad, considering that it requires no training. That 45/min includes fixing mixing mistakes. My Newton is be a little bit slower at it, which can be attributed to a number of things.
;)
I find that writing a language of BCPL-syntax lineage like C or NewtonScript is a pain in the ass to write in HWR. However, languages like Smalltalk and LISP (the languages luckily [for a number of reasons] I use the most often) work very well as translated from handwriting to text. Sometimes a opening paren is thought of as a C, but both the Newton and CalliGrapher have a tiny punctuation keyboard that works great for this. Writing in C or Perl may be a little harder, as both the syntax tends to be more silly, and the variables and function naming conventions often are very non-natural-language. (e.g., Scheme's string->number function, or Smalltalk's asNumber are easily recognized as composite words rather than something like atoi in C.)
And yes, they keep up with messy handwriting. You should see mine.
It's no wonder I can manage to take all of my class notes on a PDA with actual HWR, but you don't see people with Palm OS devices in a graduate level college course taking their notes.
Working toward a usable PDA environment in the spirit of Newton OS: Dynapad