Slashdot Mirror
A Look Inside the BSA
die_jack_die writes: "SFGate is running this article about the Business Software Alliance. I'm sure the BSA loves when they get scary stories of their tactics into the press, but this piece does quote the EFF's Fred Von Lohman making the point that companies who don't want to deal with the BSA can always use Open Source software. Most telling quote: 'every cent of those massive settlements stays within the BSA -- member software organizations receive only the licensing fees.'"
...making the point that companies who don't want to deal with the BSA [suing them for pirating software] can always use Open Source software
Well, sure, you can use open source or free software whenever you'd like.
You could also simply pay for the proprietary software that you need to use rather than stealing it. If I had my own company, I would make certain that we ran things properly, which would involve, among other things, not pirating software.
If you celebrate Xmas, befriend me (538
...I've never quite understood why the BSA has any power, I'm not sure why companies don't tell them to go fuck off and take their McCarthy hunt elsewhere.
I'm the big fish in the big pond bitch.
reminds more of the EU than, say, the RIAA.
Where the RIAA is pretty damned ruthlessly effective, the EU has far too much internal squabbling (due to pride, years of political conflict, whatever) to be really effective. Give the EU ten more years of so before they become really, really strong.
Likewise, when I think about the BSA, I think about a bunch of tech companies that often have conflicting agendas. Sure, they want a common set of defenses and legal standards (like the RIAA), but each company individually will look to make the most advantageous moves for itself, which will often undermine the strength of the group. Unless, said company is compensated by the entire group to keep the company from undermining the group.
The BSA doesn't scare me just yet. I'll give them a shorter time than the EU - say 5 years - to become really, really powerful. Until then, the BSA is only as strong as the strongest company within the BSA. As soon as members of the BSA want to make a decision that conflicts with the larger, more powerful companies in the BSA, the big companies will leave the BSA. Or ignore it altogether.
My sigs always suck.
When they come to raid your company, just reboot into linux, bsd, or whatever. Then ask, "What software?"
From the article:
The BSA estimates that pirated software was responsible for about $3 billion in lost revenues to software publishers in the U.S. in 2000 -- although, to be strictly fair, that number assumes that every copy of stolen software would have been bought if it weren't stolen, which inflates the number somewhat.
It's good to see someone in the press finally taking those numbers with a grain of salt. Somehow I don't think evry kid who downloads Photoshop and Illustrator would have purchased a copy.
SONY. Because caucasians are just too damn tall.
How hard would it be for a disgruntled employee to knowingly install software without proper licenses, then call BSA? No where is it mentioned that individuals will suffer, only the company. Of course the company can then take action against the employee if they can find them.
Even if your comapny does pay for all its software, being forced to audit yourself costs money. Unless people making false reports are held liable, this system can and probably will be abused.
"Those who make peaceful revolution impossible, make violent revolution inevitable" - JFK
Trying to draw on group expertise here - can someone tell me what provisions of which law(s) lay the burden of proof on the the businessman, and not on the accusor?
This sounds like a provision that got slipped through when no one was looking, and the BSA has managed to keep it off the agenda ever since. I imagine the US Chamber of Commerce would get some support from their members to make this law a little more balanced. It's not that I support IP abuse, but the sheer arrogance of a guilty until proven innocent presumption in any piece of legislation is too galling to let pass .
If someone can get me the information (preferably original bill and USC reference) I will happily see it to a place where it can do some good.
THE YEAR WAS 2081, and everybody was finally equal...
How did the Boy Scouts of America get wrapped up in all this?
I'm not pissed off that the BSA can sue a company for using unlicensed software. That's fine. Go after them on your own time, with all the legal resources you can afford.
What pisses me off is that they can get the assistance of the US government (in the form of US Marshals) to "raid" companies suspected of using that software.
Why doesn't it work the other way? Why don't we have the US Marshals raid Microsoft when they produce security-hole-ridden software that causes a small business to lose millions? Why should our government always be on the side of the big business?
I didn't realize the Boy Scouts of America were so evil.
"People that quote themselves in their signatures bother me" - athakur999
when you have 100 or so employees milling about, you would be amazed what kind of stuff they will drag in and install when you aren't looking.
And yes, I know all about policy editors and drive imaging and a lot of other things you can do to try to keep them from messing around with the systems or clean up after them when they leave for the day.
The bottom line is, like a lot of other companies, we spend a measurable amount of time and money on compliance issues every year even though we have never pirated software. If it weren't for the BSA, or more precisely our ties to products made by their member companies (thanks AutoDesk), this would be much less of an issue for us.
Which is a reason enough for most companies to switch vendors. Once this starts happening on a widespread basis, open source software will be a much easier sell to business.
Trust me, if the BSA contacted my company on behalf of a software vendor, that vendor would lose his account with my company. Though I do as much as I can to ensure license compliance, I will not do business with a company that has an adversarial attitude toward me. If a vendor believes that I am running unlicensed or underlicensed copies of software, it would be better for them to ask if they can perform an audit at their own expense rather than sending the BSA after me.
On a lighter note, it is the mere existence of the BSA which encourages me to use and recommend open source software as much as possible. I believe the BSA is hurting vendors more than helping them.
The society for a thought-free internet welcomes you.
I don't think there's any other group in the world that can promote free software as well as the BSA can. I mean, the more BSA extortional "warning letters" that are sent or jack-booted thugs that come raiding into offices, the more that IT organizations are going to look for alternatives.
It's been argued on Slashdot before that more people would take free software seriously if they had to pay for all the stuff they use already. I agree. I say, good, make them pay up (plus penalties!), then they'll get a clue and stop using M$.
I don't think there should be anyone on Slashdot that's one bit against the BSA. Go BSA, go!
-Russ
Me
According to Blank and Kruger, the burden of proof is on the targeted company.
When did I stop living in America?
If it ain't broke, it doesn't have enough features yet.
Most companies come back with a different settlement number, and we negotiate," says Jenny Blank, the BSA's director of enforcement. "I'm not going to say they're cheerful about it, but they recognize that this is probably easier and less expensive than taking the case to court."
This is just amazing that they can organize a settlement without even investigating the actual accounting of the licenses. If I have a license and no receipt, does that mean I stole the software? I would think just the opposite. It means I legally purchased the software and did not keep the receipt.
My question has to be, if they are judging the settlement on how long the software has been in use, who's to say it was loaded and EVER used? I have a ton of software that I NEVER use, but it is still loaded on the system. Mostly because I am waiting on an update, or patch, or Service Pack for it before I devote any type of time to running it.
BSA = Extortion, plain & simple.
You keep going until you die..."Me".
I just remember the Computer Stew episode when he tried to turn himseft in for a pirate copy of MS Office. - He tried the BSA, Police, Mayor, Attorey General, and Microsoft. At the end of the program they said something like "And what have we learned today? - If you pirate software, you might just go to jail - yeah, if you have the patience."
This comment does not represent the views or opinions of the user.
Actually, your argument implies precisely the opposite: since the act of unauthorized copying does not remove the initial item being copied, such an act clearly does less damage in any conventional sense of the term than theft (i.e., the illegal removal of tangible goods). Indeed, unauthorized copying (in the context being discussed) can do only hypothetical damage to anyone, since the "damage" claim rests entirely on the hypothetical counterfactual that the copier would have purchased a copy if he/she had not instead resorted to unauthorized means.
In any event, this is a non-sequiteur: the amount of "damage" which could, in principle, be done by unauthorized copying does not legitimately motivate the pre-emptive search of businesses or individuals for which there is not already reasonable grounds to suspect unauthorized copying. One does not have the authority to arbitrarily search others on the grounds that they may have committed some infraction against you; that firms have allowed the BSA to get away with such behavior is IMHO quite scandalous.
-Carter
Ever notice how both "organizations" hide behind that term usually reserved for not-for-profit aid groups, or otherwise innoxious group?
Ever notice how both groups generally exist for the seemingly sole purpose of badgering people with an army of lawyers behind a veil of "good"?
Ever notice the striking similarity between L Ron and Bill Gates?
Coincidence? I think not.
The previous post was meant as humor, and in no way meant liabel towards the BSA, The Church of Scientology, the ghost of L Ron, or Bill Gates' stupid grin (tm). All of my software is legitimate Microsoft(tm) software!
I've heard that google takes a CD, that has something called 'linux' on it, and they install it on, like thousands of computers, without like paying any money..
So, whats my reward for this hot tip?
If you want to find out if I own the software, fine. YOU find out. Am I really obligated to show you evidence that I purchased software?
I know a police raiding looking for stolen equipment runs checks on the serial numbers. If the serial numbers come back clean, I'm not obligated to prove to them that I legally purchased it. They have to prove that it was stolen property to begin with or they have no case. Granted, having a box of receipts for everything gets them out the door faster as well as making your life a whole lot easier in the case of a mistake.
But for the BSA, who by the way is not a law enforcement agency, to require evidence of ownership does not extend to being provided with purchasing records. The certificate of ownership should be sufficient. Of course, I could stockpile those in case I fear they're coming, but I could just as easily format the harddrives.
In fact, that might not be a bad idea. Force all data, and I mean ALL data to be stored on network servers running free software, and only use proprietary boxes as workstations. Ghost those machines and nuke them every night. Receiving a command from the network completely wipes all machines on the network (except the fileservers).
I don't condone piracy, but I also don't endorse nazi style tactics. There is NO reason that a company that acts in good faith in purchasing software licenses who makes an honest mistake should be raked over the coals because some errant employee installed an extra copy of office in the wrong place.
-Restil
Play with my webcams and lights here
I hate the BSA, the only protect large companies intellectual property rights and don't fight for what Is right, they strong arm for the highest bidders, name, Microcrap. I hate the BSA, I have enforcers and chastisers and people who help to create monopolies. I don't know how these animals sleep at night. I'm a conservative, freedom loving capitalist, but the Monopoly and Oligopoly crap and all the B2B commerce associated with such is crap.
Imagine this, a pissed off jerk employee (who was probably fired because he stunk, and losers always whine the most), reports to the BSA false information, just to get back. Who pays for the time it takes to perform the audit if there were no infraction?
Also, the BSA sucks because the don't help enforce violators of GNU/GPL/LGPL/Free licenses from Open Source companies and intellectual property holders.
I think the BSA is a crock of shit. I think they make money off of terrorizing businesses. Why don't these fold go to China and do some real work on piracy, because when the numbers come in, American companies barely steal compared to the rest of the world.
Recently Adobe stopped localizing to the Chinese language. No BSA over there to stop real hard cope IP theft. No, they have to harass innocent businesses who are FORCED to buy licenses for Microsoft crap when the buy a computer from any major vendor.
Death to BSA. They like a roving band of out of control lawyers working for monopolies. I think it should be legal to shoot a BSA auditor dead if he trespasses on your business's property.
Legalize the constitution. Think for yourself question authority.
Ah, the BSA. I love these guys - their tactics help free (libre) software more than they may realize.
In my former life as a contract sysadmin I had several clients who specifically requested free software be used to build new systems or to replace licensed commmercial software with equivalent functionality. One major reason I got, especially in the latter case, was the desire to be rid of licensing hassles. The lower upfront cost helped, but this was usually less significant as they were already paying $$$ to contract me to implement whatever.
License compliance creates not just paperwork hassles but can shut down a business when, e.g. a license server fails/license key is accidentally deleted by clueless admin/clueless admin forgets to renew licenses/vendor goes under without a way to extend licenses or purchase additional keys. And this doesn't even cover security problems - did you hear the one about MS Office for Mac OS X? By spoofing product keys one can shut down every copy on the network, blocking use and causing unsaved work to be lost.
Now I'm a law student who salivates at the thought of the BSA getting its comeuppance - one of these days, I would not be surprised to learn that the BSA had organized a raid that shut down business at a company that turned out to be fully compliant. (Yes, I know full compliance with commercial licenses is virtually impossible in a large organization, but let me dream!) I can imagine hefty lawsuits arising... actually, this might have already happened. The BSA could have settled such a case with a settlement agreement that required confidentiality. I wonder, though, if one day a BSA raid will cause sufficient monetary damages (or a sufficiently cranky CEO) to make settlement impossible and allow a messy and public trial to go forward.
God, that would be sweet!
And yes, I have proof of valid license/purchase for every shred of commercial software on my machines. (Which is not much - just Win98SE, MS Office 2000, and Half-life/CS on my windows partition.)
-Isaac
I am not a lawyer, and this is not legal advice. For Entertainment Purposes Only.
Last time I checked, everything you "buy" when it comes to software says "This software is licensed, not sold".
Doesn't this mean, if you have paid for at least one copy of the software, then it's not piracy, but instead a contract disagreement?
France. They never win anything :)
This has got to be the biggest puff piece I've seen in quite some time.
Oh, of course they don't. Only absolutely non-frivolous investigations costing perfectly innocent companies time and lost profits.
So how do we know it isn't frivolous?
In other words... they only want to target companies with a good credit rating. Remember the first rule of lawsuits: only sue people with money!
It's amazing how it takes them several pages before the article stops looking like a press release from the BSA, but there are actually some interesting comments when you get a bit deeper into the article. I thought that the following was very interesting:
That's the first time I can ever remember a news outlet that didn't buy the "every copy would have been paid for" line of crap from the BSA. Even here, though, it's pretty weak. Assuming that every copy would have been paid for inflates the numbers more than "somewhat". If the BSA isn't careful, though, the news is going to stop telling just their side of the story soon.
There's no point in questioning authority if you aren't going to listen to the answers.
We received a BSA audit notice. We replied, yeah good luck, and told them they could go climb a tree. We received a note saying that the BSA was authorized by our software suppliers to perform this audit and refusal was a violation of our software license. We called several software suppliers and informed them that we were changing companies due to BSA interference, M$ was one of the companies contacted. Within 48 hours the BSA went away and we've not heard back. Their tactics are low and barely legal, you have all kinds of recourse in regards to this kind of issue.
errr....umm...*whooosh* *whoosh* Is this thing on ?
There is a point that I think generally has been missed - The BSA gets a whole boat load of money for each "successful investigation", and it gets to keep every penny. Is this scary to anyone else? Its obvious that at some point, income will be more important than actually catching legitimate pirated software.
It seems to me that in the interest of making everybody's salary, they would be like Ken Starr - they would just keep going and going until they found some questionable software. There are a million ways to attack.
What if they started going back to Windows 3.1 and beyond? Many businesses still run these old systems (we do for testing). Do *you* know where your DOS 3.1 reciept is?
And imagine this: They start offering rewards for successful tips. Hey, there would be no end to the money.
Very, very scary.
Do you have Linux and a DotPal? Click here now!
(posting anon for obvious reasons)
Well, that's exactly what happened to us. I was asked to to a software inventory by my employer. I sent out an email warning employees to remove any personal applications or software that didn't belong to the company. When I went around and did the inventory I determined we were compliant with our licensing.
Next thing I know my boss tells me the BSA is demanding either a $25,000 payment. They totally discounted our software inventory that we did because of a tip from an ex-employee. So even though we were totally compliant, they refused to let our company off. Either pay the $25,000 now, or go to court and risk paying all legal fees plus $150,000 for each piece of software the BSA manages to "prove" we stole.
My boss didn't want to go through all that. He succumbed to the intimidation, and cut the BSA a $25,000 check. FOR NOTHING.
This is a true story. I wish I was making this up, but sadly, its reality.
At least if your familiar with OSHA. That's the american quasi-governmental group responsible for making sure employers provide a safe working environment. Thinks like making sure there are no open pits to fall in without signage or railings, certified persons for work in hazardous places, down to the office chairs we cube farmers work in have some baseline in terms of back support and stability.
The paralell is that up until OSHA was spun off from the governments payroll the fines doled out would be a few thousand bucks or so for some major mishaps / industrial accidents. Businesses in some cases considered the fines a cost of doing business.
Now that the organization is self funded. All of a sudden we saw companies getting fined $100,000+ for cronic problems and $1,000,000+ if someone dies on the job. All of a sudden it's painful and they fix stuff rather than continue to pay X $$ per day something isn't fixed or work has stopped.
The BSA has similar, but more underhanded reasons for doing that they do. They use the threat of fines and bad publicity to get money to validate they're own existance rather than seeking real change in licensing agreements to something that allows licensing after the fact and such.
Good argument for open source / free software - though as pointed out elsewhere for a great deal of niche markets the software just doesn't exist.
Personally, I don't think that the DOJ and the Attorneys General are moving quickly enough, nor are they seeming to come down on Microsoft hard enough.
I need maybe two geeks from every state in America to contact the BSA to report their state's Attorney General office for not being in compliance with their software licensing.
When the BS of A breaks down their doors with guns drawn, maybe then they will see what kind of monster Microsoft has turned into.
Only do this if you're legit. Completely.
:)
Run a successful business and have lots of cash reserves for lawsuits. Run ONLY open source software, no possible way you could be found guilty of IP theft.
Then hire someone. Have ALL your employees constantly talk about how brazen the company is about copying all the software without paying for ANY of it, it was all downloaded off the internet.
Set your computers up to LOOK like windows. Get a theme that looks that way and make sure your new hire is sufficiently dufus enough to not figure out the difference. As far as he's concerned, he's using windows, office, photoshop, etc.
Then one day, get one of those BSA extortion letters and brag loudly (so he hears you) about how messed up they are, how they couldn't do anything to you if they wanted to, how you'll keep copying software and give the BSA the middle finger, etc etc.
Then piss off that employee and fire him. If all goes right, he'll run to the BSA and paint a pretty picture for them.
Refuse to cooperate with them in any way, until you get raided. Then sue them back to the stoneage.
oh well.. I can dream can't I?
-Restil
Play with my webcams and lights here
I saw it during the Super Bowl last Sunday. Something about "Where do terrorists get their money? If you buy pirated software, some of it might come from you.".
"What is the sound of one belly slapping?"
If EVERYONE told the BSA to shove it up their ass and forced the BSA to file court papers, get a judge to issue a search warrent and use police forces to gain access they would cease to exist in less than 12 months.
but everyone caves instantly and quietly pay's their extortion... this is pure Bullcrap and we all know it. this needs to end and it needs to end now.. Make them pay through the nose like everyone else has to.
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
Pan to coffee shop.
Geek1: Hey we are having a BSA party this weekend wana come?
Geek2: Huh, what's a BSA party?
Geek3: Just remember to act scared at first, it makes it more fun
Geek1: I'll make the call this time
Geek1 picks up cell phone and starts dialing.
Flash to new scene, big server room all three geeks sitting behind Internet terminals. Zoom to door view. A loud bang insues. Voice behind door: "US Martials open up, we have a warrant."
Geek 1: comming
Geek 1 walks to door and opens it cops and serious looking guys in black suits run inside and start connecting laptops to hubs and switches.
BSA Agent: We've got you now scumbag, BSA!
BSA Agent2: We recieved anonymous tip, we understand you haven't bought a single software licence for any of these computers!
BSA Agent3: We have you now, there must be hundreds of servers here.
Geek2:(looking scared) Busted...
Geek 3:We will cooperate fully.
clock hands spin around
zoom back to scene... everyone is standing around a large screen . Geek 1 is playing with some cool themed desktop
BSA Agent2: I've never seen anthing like it...
Cop 1:It's so cool
flash to next scene, all the cops and agents are playing first person shooters and yelling at each other. A big LAN party.
Flash to next scene, big nurf war some cops are drinking beer in the corner with their shirts open. The drinking cops and geek 3 are singing together...
Flash to next scene. Things are quiet, Police and men are slowly walking towards the door, heads down.
BSA Agent2: (looks up)That was great. I'm really sorry, you are such nice guys. I quit!
BSA Agent 1:(looking very sincere he puts his hand on geek 1's shoulder) Sorry. We were wrong.
Everybody walks out. Door closes behind him geek 3 turns to geek 2.
Geek 3: They lose more guys that way.
pause blinking servers are visible in background
Geek 2: (confused) OK... How did you do that? play catchy song, fade out...
write across black screen "Linux"
Novel theory: Modern Man evolved from psychopath
(1) Companies should be warned of an audit ahead of time.
(2) Should a "raid" be conducted on a company, the BSA should not be present. The BSA is not the government and has no business on official law business.
(3) The closeness of the BSA to federal law agencies is troubling. It seems like they say "Check them out" and the Feds check them out. A money-gribing organization shouldn't have that much influence on federal law enforcement.
(4) Companies shouldn't have to prove anything. They shouldn't have to prove they have legit software. The BSA should have to prove -- beyond a reasonable doubt -- that the companies don't have legit software. The principle of beyond a reasonable doubt shouldn't be disconsidered just because its a civil suit and not a criminal case. The reason we assume innocence until proven otherwise in a crminal case is because the state has vastly more resources than the individual, and its difficult to "prove" your innocent. The same should be true in lawsuits (where the filing party has vastly more resources, at least).
(5) Companies found to have pirated software should only have to pay the cost of the software, OR should have the option of forfeiting the software (that is, removing it from their system). Lets face it, in hard money, no software company loses ANYTHING when a someone pirates their software if they weren't going to buy it otherwise.
(6) I'm not a fan of intellectual property anyways. I think all current types of IP should be scaled back to five years, and their scope should be drastically reduced; but that's another story.
social sciences can never use experience to verify their statemen
But in the case of planting drugs, police actually have to gather the evidence and the DA has to prove it in court. Here the company has to all the work and has to prove innocence. Bassackwards if you ask me.
"Those who make peaceful revolution impossible, make violent revolution inevitable" - JFK
If you're running your business in a reasonable manner (i.e., using open software to minimize your expenses) this should not be a problem. If you're stupid enough to base your business on proprietary software, be prepaired for all the possible downsides of that decision, including a raid by the BSA.
If all this should have a reason, we would be the last to know.
If all this should have a reason, we would be the last to know.
Ack! I just found out I'm not as much of a geek as I thought I was. On my first glance at the header I did a doubletake and wondered what dastardly deeds the Boy Scouts of America were up to now! :)
now just disclose the name of your company. A BSA audit should be a breeze, no?
When in doubt, have a man come through a door with a gun in his hand.
Ooo, good point. I have a copy of Photoshop 2.5 for the Mac (unused, still in the shrinkwrap to this day) that I won as a doorprize. Adobe's one of the biggest snots around when it comes to "piracy", and one of the founding members of the BSA.
Does that mean I can expect to get raided? "Hey, Adobe! I have a copy of Photoshop I didn't pay for! Nyah, nyah!!"
Schwab
Editor, A1-AAA AmeriCaptions
I wonder how the BSA themselves would stand up to the cold light of an audit of every one of their machines.
...
Sure, they may have licenses for all of the products they use from member companies that subscribe to their services... But I wonder about Joe Employee and his favorite pirated pieces of software (utilities?) that he brought in. I wonder if every IT person is 100% clean.
Guilty until proven innocent goes BOTH ways.
Now the only thing we need to do is find a disgruntled ex-BSA employee who suspects this is going on, go before a judge in the BSA's home county,
If the BSA is reading this, and you can pretty much bet they are, I wonder if the sweat beads just started on the forehead. I hope that simple suspicion is enough to get my point across about the way they do things.
If everyone here were to donate one dollar to a pool to hire a sufficiently powerful corporate lawyer to go after them, it might uncover some very interesting things.
Me too. I won a copy of BCB5 Pro in their online contest. Where do I get my receipt?
Fascism starts when the efficiency of the government becomes more important than the rights of the people.
BSA, including a sound threatening letter and two forms. The forms required us to list the hardware and software we are using and their model and serial numbers
I think the request is outragous, why do we want to expose our company information to other company whom we have no business deal with and never will? However, I'm worrying that if I don't fill the forms they would 'redlisted' us and might give us some trouble, but on the other hand I also believe that they'd do the same if I filled the forms.
We do use some Windows for clients but we are very sure we want nobody else touch our enterprise servers(Linux), nor bring it down for a second!
Anybody can give me some advise?
Here is the lines from the MS EULA that say you can't sue them for their products being buggy or insecure, no matter how much gets destroyed in the process:
"CUSTOMER REMEDIES. Microsoft's and its suppliers' entire liability and your exclusive remedy shall be, at Microsoft's option, either (a) return of the price paid, if any, or (b) repair or replacement of the SOFTWARE PRODUCT that does not meet Microsoft's Limited Warranty and that is returned to Microsoft with a copy of your receipt. "
Meaning that if Windows messes up and destoys all your data, MS, *at their option* may refund your money. In addition,
"LIMITATION OF LIABILITY. TO THE MAXIMUM EXTENT PERMITTED BY APPLICABLE LAW, IN NO EVENT SHALL MICROSOFT OR ITS SUPPLIERS BE LIABLE FOR ANY SPECIAL, INCIDENTAL, INDIRECT, OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES WHATSOEVER (INCLUDING, WITHOUT LIMITATION, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF BUSINESS PROFITS, BUSINESS INTERRUPTION, LOSS OF BUSINESS INFORMATION, OR ANY OTHER PECUNIARY LOSS) ARISING OUT OF THE USE OF OR INABILITY TO USE THE SOFTWARE PRODUCT OR THE FAILURE TO PROVIDE SUPPORT SERVICES, EVEN IF MICROSOFT HAS BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES. IN ANY CASE, MICROSOFT'S ENTIRE LIABILITY UNDER ANY PROVISION OF THIS EULA SHALL BE LIMITED TO THE GREATER OF THE AMOUNT ACTUALLY PAID BY YOU FOR THE SOFTWARE PRODUCT OR U.S.$5.00;"
Meaning that no matter how much damage a MS product causes and no matter what it does, they have the option of refunding your money or giving you $5 -- I have no idea where that number came from. Moreover EVEN IF YOU TELL THEM THAT THEIR SOFTWARE HAS A FLAW THAT CUOLD DESTROY ALL YOUR DATA AND THEY DON'T FIX IT, YOU STILL CAN'T SUE THEM!
This type of EULA does not come with bridges and is why you can't sue MS for buggy software. If a Boeing plane were running MS sofware in its navigation system and that system messed up causing the plane to crash no one could sue MS, however if an engineering firm designed a new, let's say rudder for a Boeing jet and it failed causing the plane to crash its most likely the engineering firm can be sued.
Its all about monopoly -- if there was competition, people would not have to accept this implied consent EULA.
What needs to happen is some company that has their licenses in order should tell the BSA to screw off. When BSA comes storming in with a court order the company should obviously comply. The BSA will find nothing. They should then sue the BSA for wrongful prosecution, sue for damages (lost productivity due to having to deal with them), treble damages, and hopefully get the process itself checked on constitutionality.
The BSA has the right to sue. But the courts shouldn't be dishing out court orders for these kind of raids unless there's evidence of violation. A tip is heresey unless the tip comes with evidence--copies of email sent within the companying that acknowledge the presence of pirated copies, etc.
Consider their acknowledged source of tips: disgruntled employees. Sure, they may have knowledge of violations. Or they might just be getting back at their ex-employer. They might not have any pirated copies, but the disgruntled employee will at least cause his ex-employer some headaches.
Is a disgruntled employee really a reliable source for determining whether there is justification to violate somebody's (or some company) right to be free of unreasonable search and seizure?
This needs to be tested constitutionally, but I think it'll require 1) A company with their licenses in order. 2) The company snubbing their noses at the BSA. 3) The company subsequently being raided. 4) The company sueing the BSA.
Lots of "ifs" considering most companies are in business to make money, not test constitutionality issues. We can dream, though.
Trivial; he could just do a bit for bit copy of the CDs to a
Hell, if he were extra clever he'd probably throw some kiddie porn in too.
I don't care if it's 90,000 hectares. That lake was not my doing.
Isn't there, in the US legal system, the ability to get a pre-emptive judgement? I.e. somebody's treatening legal action, as a threat, you can take the case to the judge yourself and be declared legally clean? Maybe somebody with the cash should do that. Get the polite BSA letter, send a polite one back, get the threatening letter, send a 'fuck you' reply back, then go to the judge and cart out all these arguements; extortion, protection rackets, innocent until proven guilty, burden of proof of ownership, and so on. Might even set a precident that other companies can use.
Vintage computer games and RPG books available. Email me if you're interested.
Let me get this straight....a pissed-off ex-employee reports his former employer to the BSA and then the BSA requests an audit???? What kind of crap is this? Guilty until proven innocent? What charter is the BSA operating under that gives them the right to become a law enforcement agency....none that I know of. Also, who pays for the man-power to do a software audit? This could be very expensive for a large corporation.
In order to raid a business, the BSA must obtain a warrant since the constitution (Amendment IV) of the united states protects its citizens against unreasonable search and seizures. In order to obtain this warrant; the BSA must convince a court that there is compelling evidence of piracy...just the word of disgruntled employees is not compelling evidence. After all, ex-employees are tainted witnesses.
There are checks and balances in our government that try to prevent abuses of our justice system. These abuses could force a legitimate company out of business.
My question is this: Could a legitimate company sue for the costs of a BSA investigation that produced no evidence of piracy? That would be justice.
I'm not a piracy advocate, but I hate people that use our justice system to do their dirty work.
-ted
There is no substitute when dealing with bullies like the BSA: make sure you are well-advised. They misrepresent the extent of their powers and advantages in these threatened litigations, wildly mistate their rights under the law and appropriate burdens of proof; but they do have significant advantages that you should never underestimate.
While BSA likes to compare themselves to other licensing enforcement operations, such as ASCAP/BMI, there are fundamental differences, and at the end of the day, these can make substantial differences in the result if you are willing to duke it out.
A truly compliant entity, even poorly documented, can turn the tables powerfully on such a bully. Indeed, even a party who is slightly out-of-compliance can do so, by using a number of devices available at law, such as Offers of Judgment, to turn the tables or test the will of a BSA threat. (Indeed, it may be wise -- again YMMV -- to consider filing a preemptive declaratory judgment action against them for several reasons.)
ASCAP/BMI, when asked, will produce actual opinions of actual cases where they have collected actual damages at trial in comparable enforcement scenarios. Ask a similar question of the BSA -- they will cite to the cases of the Performing Rights Societies and not to those of the BSA.
Ex parte seizures or searches can backfire seriously as well. A 6th Circuit case not too long ago found that a defendant who can show a seizure to have been improper can proceed past a motion to dismiss on a civil rights and trespass claim not only against the overreaching plaintiff, but also against their attorneys. It is a good idea to put them on notice of this fact early in the correspondence.
And from this article, I learned something quite interesting -- their constituents only get the license fees, they retain the multiples they extract. Not so with Performing Rights Societies, who, as understood, are non-profit entities that return their proceeds after costs to the composers and rights owners they represent.
It is therefore essential to get solid representation from someone who knows what they are doing. A stone wall could expose you to substantial liability. On the other hand,
Please do not consider any of the above to be legal advisc beyond the following: get a lawyer who is highly competent in this area to advise you. Specific legal advise is highly fact-dependent, and subtle differences in facts can often necessitate dramatically different strategies. Accordingly, no "cookbook" or single posting can provide you with a clear, definitive solution -- get competent advice and act on it.
I doubt that anybody without complete source of Microsoft products and the right to produce fixed versions of it would sell you warranty for Microsoft's products.
This has probably happened at lots of places. It makes me wonder if a class action lawsuit against the BSA is possible. Perhaps your boss should find some enterprising lawyer who would like to pursue something like that.
It also seems to me that the BSA's little game is extortion or racketeering. They are using fear and intimidation to grab as much money as they can from their prey, whether or not said prey is actually pirating software. I'd personally like to see the executives of the BSA end up behind bars (like hopefully those at Enron will be).
"Any fool can make a rule, and any fool will mind it."
--Henry David Thoreau
Or, are the BSA members willing to accept the same rules for their own activities? Would they accept a Software Consulting Association that can send audit letters out checking for late payments to consultants? If you've paid a consultant more than 30 days late, you get fined $200k. Or an Hourly Workers Association- you have to prove you've never underpaid hourly workers, or its $50k. How about a Pricing Gun Mistake Association- if the grocery store misprices an item, you get $600. Not double the difference, or 10x, but 1,000x for each instance.
No, they wouldn't, because the rules that the BSA use wouldn't work if applied to all of society. Unless a mistake can cause extraordinary harm, you don't usually get to treat mistakes like a felony! What makes the BSA so special? Earlier people wrote about OSHA- at least that affects life and health. We tend to allow bigger fines for that. But is software piracy that much worse than discharging toxic substances into waterways (max fine $125,000)? Misbranding a drug in interstate commerce (max fine $100,000)? Violating the Sherman Antitrust Act (the fine listed in Section 3571 (d) is "not more than the greater of twice the gross gain or twice the gross loss" caused by the conduct...)?
In this Slashdot / Salon / LATimes coverage we saw Microsoft / BSA vs the LA School District, where "hundreds" of unlicensed copies were found. the threat was $150,000 fine for each copy of a $100 per license product. ($100 at best. 1/3 was MSDOS, and schools get very good rates). They "negotiate" down to a $300,000 total fine, and the school district probably felt very grateful for this kindness of the BSA.
This is a 150,000% fine negotiated down to a 1,000% fine. (or 1,500x down to 10x). How does the BSA get to levy fines so out of proportion to actual damages? Yes, illegal copies are a crime (as is speeding), but the LAUSD wasn't running a mass piracy operation. Assuming that "hundreds" = 500 copies found, then the LAUSD had found roughly 1 copy per school, or 1 copy per 120 employees. The BSA got to treat the LAUSD as if it had found widespread felonious behavior rather than a few years worth of a few people deliberately or mistakenly making copies. No proof of bad intentions needed.
never said it wasn't wrong. but you're right. It makes no difference since proprietary software will be completely gone in 10-15 years.
Bad example. If someone tries to frame you for a criminal offense then you at least have a chance of defending yourself,
Also it's quite possibly that with something like a disgruntled employee planting drugs the police will still go after that person anyway...
When you get a letter from the BSA, shred all your hard drives.
SD
âoeWho knew something as harmless as willful ignorance could end up having real consequences?â
In another case, A large school was basically threatened, and told that if you buy such-and-such hugely priced licence, we won't audit you, and things will be fine. The administation agreed, and paid for the contract. Here is the problem the licence they were conned into is horrible. It is an upgrade licence, that requires an original copy of a windows licence, and it invalidates the individual licences if the contract isn't renewed. Can you say extortion? It doesn't prevent having to do an audit at any time, and if you ever get out of it, you have to remove all of the software you otherwise have licences to.
It makes no difference since proprietary software will be completely gone in 10-15 years.
--RMS, 1985
Yeah, good luck with that.
--saint
Listen, buddy. As Richard Stallman points out, software is an entire different entity. It's very easily copied. It's easy to take those copies and transfer them. Therefore, the amount of damage that can be done by pirating software is massive and much larger than other more tangible products.
Tsk, tsk, you been listening to closely to the media ? Let's say that reading books costed money, so if you borrow a book and read it without paying for it you're causing ***damage*** ??
echo '[q]sa[ln0=aln80~Psnlbx]16isb572CCB9AE9DB03273snlbxq' |dc
When did I stop living in America?
You weren't born in America.. The America you have belived you lived in, ceased to exist a long long time ago.
echo '[q]sa[ln0=aln80~Psnlbx]16isb572CCB9AE9DB03273snlbxq' |dc
Because it's the law. (Change it. You HAVE the power.)
-- @rjamestaylor on Ello
For fairness, here is a link to a follow up letters column that disputes some of the facts in the article.
Quite an eye-opener.