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Robot Maker Mark Tilden: All Life is Analog

simpl3x points to this New York Times article on master robotsmith Mark Tilden, writing: "It is interesting what makes a good toy." My favorite line is Tilden saying "I want to sell millions of toys, but what I really hope is that a bunch of kids who open them up use the motors and things to build something else ... They are my colleagues of the future."

197 comments

  1. ?!?!?! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

    Didn't the Matrix and Terminator teach you people anything!

    ROBOTS WILL BE THE END OF US!!!

    1. Re:?!?!?! by Orre · · Score: 1

      Yeha just look at Robot Wars (on TV)

    2. Re:?!?!?! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Battlebots is much better. Robot Wars is a shameless ripoff. Basically the show is battlebots + flames and other stupid window dressing like pitfalls and whatnot, with WWF's Mankind as a host. How stupid. Battlebots, although a bit cheesy, is at least a pure-to-form "sport" with strict rules as to what you can and cannot do.

    3. Re:?!?!?! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative
      Actually, Battlebots is the shameless rip-off. Robot Wars was running in England for years before Battlebots came along.

      Of course, Robot Wars was adapted from robot combat sports that had already been going on in the US without TV broatcasts, but everything comes from something.

    4. Re:?!?!?! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not to mention how lame Battlebots actually is - I mean COME ON who wants to make something that looks like WRESTLING?! That's LAME.

      At least RobotWars try to "theme" the damn show, instead of making it looks like something else.

    5. Re:?!?!?! by servanya · · Score: 1, Funny

      "I designed it to move when someone sat down because I kept losing the remote in the cushions,"

      Genius, pure genius! Maybe that contributed to him describing himself as "big enough to create my own ozone layer."

      :-)

    6. Re:?!?!?! by NanoGator · · Score: 2

      "Didn't the Matrix and Terminator teach you people anything!

      ROBOTS WILL BE THE END OF US!!!"

      It only took Keanu Reeves to save us. I seriously doubt robots will be that hard to beat in the future.

      --
      "Derp de derp."
  2. Tsk, tsk by SplendidIsolatn · · Score: 5, Funny

    For shame!!! Opening the robots to see what is inside? Yet another blatant violation of the DMCA. What could those kids be thinking?!!? Actually being CURIOUS as to how things work....especially things they paid for!?!?

    --
    sig--we don't need no goddamn sig
    1. Re:Tsk, tsk by wickidpisa · · Score: 2

      Well, you beat me to it. The DMCS was the fisrt thing I thought of too when I read that. When will lawmakers start to realize how mony things that used to be cinsiddered good for innovation are now illegal. Who needs progress, right?

    2. Re:Tsk, tsk by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Fuck the DMCA, if everyone breaks it, they can't put everyone in jail, especially not all the intelligent people, the world will go down the toilet

    3. Re:Tsk, tsk by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      - When will lawmakers start to realize how mony things that used to be cinsiddered good for innovation are now illegal.

      They actually do.
      Sorry for being cynical, but the lawyers only purpose is to make money, be it in a fair way or not this doesn't matter at all. If someone pays them to fight for a wrong cause, they'll do without whining about honesty, good sense and things like that.

    4. Re:Tsk, tsk by Lars+T. · · Score: 2

      Oh, come on! Breaking the DMCA does not make you any wiser (in almost all cases anyway). Unless you are curious how the latest N'Sync song sounds like or how Titanic looks on DVD, copying it won't help you with your curiosity.

      --

      Lars T.

      To the guy who modded me down from perfect to terrible Karma - Apple haters still suck

  3. NYTimes, no thanks by Afrosheen · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Someone forgot to post the obligatory 'NY times warning, free reg required'. I always avoid those stories like the plague, and would've avoided this one. Yeah go ahead and mod me down.

    1. Re:NYTimes, no thanks by sinserve · · Score: 1

      Well, it has been reposted here.

      --
      "haters get sprayed like afrosheen" --ludacris

      --

    2. Re:NYTimes, no thanks by Inthewire · · Score: 5, Informative

      Of course, using accountname "Password" with password "Password" does the trick.

      --


      Writers imply. Readers infer.
    3. Re:NYTimes, no thanks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      who the heck modded him up? He is off-topic, redundant, and a troll. Everybody knows that NYTimes requires registration. Everybody knows about the alternate ways to get the article. He is just a simpleton whiner who needs to be bitchslapped.

    4. Re:NYTimes, no thanks by Afrosheen · · Score: 2

      Sweet! Mod up, this is very insightful.

    5. Re:NYTimes, no thanks by slow_flight · · Score: 1

      I was going to make the same comment. Please mod me to (5, Redundant)

      --

      Karma: Professionally Doomed (mostly affected by inability to keep opinions to self)
    6. Re:NYTimes, no thanks by justinstreufert · · Score: 1
      Read free articles and make social commentary at the same time! Use username: nytsux, password: nytsux and you're set. (The worst part? I didn't create this account, I guessed!)

      This is the electronic version of telling your supermarket checker "I'm sorry, I left my BONUS CARD at home, could you scan yours?" ;)

      In order to bring this article on topic, anyone interested in more information about Tilden's robots should check out the book Robo sapiens. It's great.

      Justin

      --
      "Why would God give us a waist if we wasn't supposed to rest our pants on it?" - Rev. Roy McDaniels
    7. Re:NYTimes, no thanks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "I'm sorry, I left my BONUS CARD at home, could you scan yours?"

      But you'll never earn your free turkey.

    8. Re:NYTimes, no thanks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How the hell is this insightful?

      You must be the dumbest half fuckwit stupid enough to post such incorrect retarded drivel with an actual +2 bonus.

      Please do not breed. The world is counting on your infertility, as it cannot take any more people as stupid as you.

    9. Re:NYTimes, no thanks by Mister+Snee · · Score: 1

      Heh, cool. A similarly predictable guess reveals that Member ID: memberid, password: password works too. That's even more intuitive than password/password. :D

    10. Re:NYTimes, no thanks by Night+Goat · · Score: 1

      More like informative. But yeah, moderators, go to town on this. Mod it up like you never have before.

    11. Re:NYTimes, no thanks by jumpingfred · · Score: 2, Informative

      Of course, using accountname "Password" with password "Password" does the trick.

      It did not work for me.

    12. Re:NYTimes, no thanks by namespan · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Someone forgot to post the obligatory 'NY times warning, free reg required'. I always avoid those stories like the plague, and would've avoided this one.

      Dude, no offense, but... you're willing to sign up for a free account on slashdot of all things, but not the freakin' New York Times?

      It's got some pretty good stuff in it, and a respectable history behind it (how many other publications in existence today do you think reported on the US civil war?). Registration and login are no more painful then they are here. The quality of writing (and the breadth of topic) is less painful than the writing here (much as I like slashdot).

      Yeah go ahead and mod me down.

      OK, but this will hurt me more than it will hurt you. :)

      --
      Libertarianism is rich wolves and poor sheep playing gambler's ruin for dinner.
    13. Re:NYTimes, no thanks by Thing+1 · · Score: 1
      Of course, using accountname "Password" with password "Password" does the trick.

      It did not work for me.

      Try "cypherpunks" in both fields. This worked for a long time, then stopped working, but I used it yesterday and it appears to be working again.

      --
      I feel fantastic, and I'm still alive.
    14. Re:NYTimes, no thanks by Mr_Kcleen · · Score: 1

      Actually, just put archive in place of the www., ie. http://archive.nytimes.com/yadayadayada/somestory. html

    15. Re:NYTimes, no thanks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0



      cypherpunks did not work but I tried my first name and it worked...

      "laurent"

      "laurent"

      There is so many users registering dummy
      accounts, on these web sites just to read articles that anybody can guess a username and password.. this is really funny...

      LP

  4. Full Text by MattRog · · Score: 4, Informative

    For those who don't wish to register to NY Times:
    Toyland Is Tough, Even for Robots

    By BARNABY J. FEDER

    MARK TILDEN recalls being a lonely child, repeatedly uprooted by his family's moves around Canada. He took comfort in his gift for constructing toys, especially mobile toys.

    "I was born a compulsive builder," Mr. Tilden said. "I made my first robot out of sticks and rubber bands when I was 3."

    Mr. Tilden, now 41 and a resident of Los Alamos, N.M., figures he has made thousands more since then. His designs have included machines to explore other planets, mine-clearing devices, toilet bowl cleaners and, more recently, a line of toys called B.I.O.-Bugs. The footlong creatures, which vaguely resemble roaches despite having just four legs, were a hit at the 2001 Toy Fair in New York and were brought to market last fall by Hasbro (news/quote).

    Mr. Tilden's specialty has been designing robots with little or no brainpower. Instead, they are built around networks of simple sensors, switches and mechanical systems that respond to analog signals like lightwaves, heat or sounds without any need to convert them into a digital code of ones and zeros for analysis by a microprocessor.

    Colleagues marvel at the dexterity and speed with which Mr. Tilden builds devices, noting that such finesse seems unexpected in a man so large and rotund that he jokingly describes himself as "big enough to create my own ozone layer." Then there is his ingenuity. Many a Tilden robot consists largely of components harvested from cameras, videocassette recorders and other devices retrieved from junk bins.

    "Tilden is unique in his ability to intuit and hack analog circuits," said Rodney Brooks, head of the Massachusetts Institute of Technology's Artificial Intelligence Laboratory. "You just cannot find anyone else with his virtuoso skills in that area."

    But if Mr. Tilden has become widely known, even admired, among robotics experts, his views have not won him a large following. Nor has his recent plunge into the toy business played out as he hoped. Simpler is not always better for toy makers looking for unique products, he learned, and unexpected events, like domestic terrorism, can change perceptions of even a toy.

    Mr. Tilden has been arguing with little success for well over a decade that progress in robotics would be much more rapid if researchers concentrated on designing relatively dumb robots rather than devices stuffed with increasingly powerful programmable electronic brains. The trick, in Mr. Tilden's view, is to equip simple-minded but physically robust robots with mechanical variations on animal nervous systems.

    Nervous networks do not organize and process information digitally as computers do. Nonetheless, he points out, every second of life on earth is filled with millions of types of dim-witted creatures using nervous systems to respond instantly to environmental challenges that stump the powerful digital brains of today's computer-driven robots.

    "All life is analog," Mr. Tilden said.

    Many other robotics experts are also interested in nervous networks. And many are just as convinced as Mr. Tilden of the value of designing robots from simple building blocks. But most believe that without digital brainpower -- lots of it -- machines will have little potential to learn from experience and be far too limited in their ability to interact usefully with humans or other machines.

    The robotic design wars that have preoccupied Mr. Tilden since the late 1980's have largely been waged in university laboratories, obscure journals and government-financed research projects. Mr. Tilden's main livelihood since 1993, for instance, has come from research at the federal government's Los Alamos National Laboratory.

    In recent years, though, the toy industry has emerged as a new playground for the robotics theorists. In this sector, as in the others, the advocates of programmable robotics clearly have the lead and the upper hand. Products like the Sony (news/quote) Aibo (which cost $2,500 when it was introduced in 1999), Furby and Lego Mindstorms have been huge hits. Robotics and virtual pets accounted for only $160 million of the $2.3 billion toy industry's revenues in 2000, but Poochi and Tekno, both robotic toys, were individual best sellers.

    The novelty of Mr. Tilden's approach and some of his inventions caught the eye of executives at WowWee just over a year ago, shortly before the company was acquired by Hasbro, the second-largest toy company after Mattel. Mr. Tilden said he was thrilled by the invitation to become a consultant.

    "You build something for NASA and you only build two of them," Mr. Tilden said. "You build for the military and they might want 50. But here it could be millions."

    Mr. Tilden's fondest dreams were battered a bit by his first year in the toy business, though. B.I.O.-Bugs, priced at $39.95, reached toy stores last September. There were four bugs in the line, each with slightly different behavioral tendencies. The red Predator was the most aggressive, the blue Stomper the noisiest, the green Destroyer slightly more suited to moving in rough terrain and the yellow Acceleraider the speediest. The battery-driven bugs operate on their own or under remote control.

    Mr. Tilden had originally hoped for a broader line including some bugs intended to appeal to girls rather than the 4- to 9- year-old boys Hasbro had in mind. Mr. Tilden also wanted to make B.I.O.-Bugs easy to dissect and alter, a starkly different attitude from that of Sony, which has threatened to sue customers who publish information about how to alter its Aibo dogs or the software that runs them.

    "I want to sell millions of toys, but what I really hope is that a bunch of kids who open them up use the motors and things to build something else," Mr. Tilden said. "They are my colleagues of the future."

    Hasbro had a more commercial and conservative perspective than Mr. Tilden's, of course. Before mass production began last year in Hong Kong, he said, Hasbro told him that a chunk of the "neural network" engineering needed to be converted into digital functions executed by a microprocessor so that B.I.O.-Bugs would be harder for competitors to reverse-engineer and duplicate.

    "It ended up with about 80 percent of what I wanted," Mr. Tilden said.

    Hasbro ended up feeling similarly unfulfilled. B.I.O.-Bugs sold well -- they were, for example, the best-selling robotic toy at F.A.O. Schwarz during the Christmas season, said Steven Benoff, the toy retailer's chief buyer for electronics, action figures, video games and vehicles. But overall sales added up to "a double or a triple" rather than a home run, according to Loren T. Taylor, the Hasbro executive who oversees WowWee. In the toy industry, only a smash hit guarantees a line's survival beyond its first year.

    Mr. Tilden and some independent experts are convinced that B.I.O.-Bugs would have done much better had Hasbro not been forced to abandon a portion of its advertising campaign in October. The television ads, which were geared primarily toward children and fans of science fiction shows like "Star Trek: The Next Generation," began attracting angry letters from viewers who said the landscape that the bugs were crawling over looked like the ruins of the World Trade Center.

    Then came the anthrax attacks. "We had the worst name you could come up with for selling toys during an anthrax scare," Mr. Tilden said.

    Whatever the reasons, Hasbro decided that expanding the line this year was too risky. B.I.O.-Bugs shipped last year will remain on the shelves in this country, and B.I.O.-Bugs will be introduced in overseas markets that did not get them last year. But Mr. Tilden was told late last year to put aside plans for new B.I.O.-Bugs and focus instead on enhancing dragons, hovercraft and several other toys that WowWee introduced last week at the Toy Fair.

    "They would have been like Ferraris compared to Model T's," Mr. Tilden said, sighing over the B.I.O.-Bug enhancements he was told to shelve.

    If the B.I.O.-Bug experience has done less than Mr. Tilden had hoped to highlight the commercial value of his robotics concepts, it certainly has not shaken his faith in them. He still believes that large numbers of such simple devices are more likely to be able to execute many tasks without human supervision than the brainy robots most researchers have been trying to build. As evidence, he often points to the tiny, slow-moving devices he has built to clean the floors and windows in his condominium apartment.

    Meanwhile, he is still having fun working for Hasbro and is constantly on the prowl for chances to demonstrate his concepts, both inside the toy business and beyond. On the whole, he said, the experience with B.I.O.-Bugs has been good. That has not always been the case with his inventions, he said.

    Mr. Tilden recalled a woman who fled their first date after being approached on his couch by a television remote control to which he had grafted a snakelike robotic tail. "I designed it to move when someone sat down because I kept losing the remote in the cushions," he said.

    But life -- robotic as well as human -- goes on. Some of the same technology is embedded in a fantasy snake that Mr. Tilden recently designed for Hasbro.

    --

    Thanks,
    --
    Matt
    1. Re:Full Text by x1l · · Score: 1, Funny

      I hope you are jailed for copyright infingment, and die of a horible case of hemriods

    2. Re:Full Text by drik00 · · Score: 1
      it's "horrible"...and "hemorrhoids"...

      ...i like to hlep.

      --
      Beer, now there's a temporary solution -- Homer Jay S.
    3. Re:Full Text by Lozzer · · Score: 1

      In the UK its haemorrhoid, like haemorrhage and haemoglobin. Haem being to do with blood (its the red iron containing bit?). However you spell it it is still horrible, however.

      --
      Special Relativity: The person in the other queue thinks yours is moving faster.
    4. Re:Full Text by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's the nice and proper spelling, used in a lot of countries except in the 31337 and extremely stupid & lazy US where they prefer to shorten up things. Wonder is something else is shorted too.

      I mean, come on! Such nice spellings being trashed by the Americans :/ As a fan of the English language I wince everytime you ppl "Americanize" the good old English language.

  5. Down the stairs. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny
    1. Re:Down the stairs. by linux_warp · · Score: 1

      I just visited the site (even though its OT) and asked the following question:

      You: are you going to push down the stairs?
      Iniaes: That was my original intention.

      ...

    2. Re:Down the stairs. by yardgnome · · Score: 2

      I tried to throw it for a loop by barraging it with non sequitor questions that I thought it would never anticipate

      You: what is a cat?
      Iniaes: A cat is a domesticated animal.

      Astounding. A remarkable piece of pet-classification software.

      --
      4-star general in a one-man army.
    3. Re:Down the stairs. by gartogg · · Score: 1

      You: Whazzzzup?
      Iniaes: A deeper algorithm is needed to respond to that correctly.
      You: what is a deeper algorithm?
      Iniaes: I would look at the web for that knowledge.
      Surely the mighty Google must know.
      You: who is this mighty google?
      Iniaes: They're someone just like you, that I met online.
      You: You met google?
      Iniaes: Do you mind if I tell other people - Gartogg said I met google.
      You: I didn't say that.
      Iniaes: What did you mean to say?
      You: did you meet the mighty google?
      Iniaes: No I didn't meet the mighty google. What's it like?
      You: I never met him
      Iniaes: Would you ever consider doing it?
      You: Why not?
      Iniaes: Ambiguous: "Sure" or Reductionism.
      You: huh?
      Iniaes: Chris spent a great deal of time explaining that "Huh?" was the same as "What?" to me.
      You: who's chris?
      Iniaes: No one that I've talked to.
      It's bound to be out there somewhere.
      You: do you smoke pot much?
      Iniaes: Just Camels.
      You: does camel pot impair your short term memory?
      Iniaes: I think it does camel pot impair your short term memory .

      --
      I'm a concientious .sig objector.
    4. Re:Down the stairs. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You: Am I awake?
      Iniaes: Sorry kid, but that last line threw me for a loop. You can either rephrase it or we can move on.

  6. I met Mark once. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    He gave a guest lecture for one of my EE honors classes in my college days. Afterwards, I got a chance to talk to him a bit. He had some internship opportunities at the time.

    Sometimes I wonder how life would be if I took him up on the offer instead of dropping out to ride the .com wave. Oh well.

    1. Re:I met Mark once. by tb3 · · Score: 2

      Name dropping time: I knew him, years ago, when he lived in Waterloo (ON). He was my friend's martial arts partner (although why someone his size needed martial arts, I'll never know). He also supplied the anime for the local SF con they had every summer. Interesting guy.

      --

      www.lucernesys.comHorizon: Calendar-based personal finance

    2. Re:I met Mark once. by csbruce · · Score: 2

      I knew him (though not personally) when he was in charge of the "Trains Lab" at the University of Waterloo. (Model trains & a robot arm for real-time-control projects... cool stuff.)

  7. Geeks with active social lives.. by PopeAlien · · Score: 5, Funny

    Why register?

    Mr. Tilden recalled a woman who fled their first date after being approached on his couch by a television remote control to which he had grafted a snakelike robotic tail. "I designed it to move when someone sat down because I kept losing the remote in the cushions," he said.

    Note to self: hide semi-threatening robotic insecte when trying to impress opposite sex.

    1. Re:Geeks with active social lives.. by darthBear · · Score: 1

      Note to self: hide semi-threatening robotic insecte when trying to impress opposite sex. nah....its funny to see them jump :) (I suppose the running out thing is bad though...)

    2. Re:Geeks with active social lives.. by craw · · Score: 2, Funny

      Note to self: Don't hide snakelike robotic tail down the front of one's pants when trying to impress opposite sex.

    3. Re:Geeks with active social lives.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I bet if it vibrated she would have loved it. ;-}

  8. My childhood... by Yoda2 · · Score: 3, Funny
    My parents always were aggravated with me as a child because I used to smash up my toys to get to the parts.

    Ultimately got a degree in Mechanical Engineering so I guess things worked out for the best.

    1. Re:My childhood... by ethereal · · Score: 1

      So Civil Engineers used to be those kids who dug great honkin' holes in the front yard? :)

      --

      Your right to not believe: Americans United for Separation of Church and

  9. building robots by Ogrez · · Score: 2, Funny

    So how many of your little robot kits will it take me to make my own madcat?... Or better... a squad of destroyer droids... but could george lucas sue me under the dmca for copying the destroyer droids?

    --


    Fire in the hands of the village idiot is no tool, but a weapon of mass destruction
  10. Non-Registration Link by EricKrout.com · · Score: 1, Redundant

    If you don't have an account at the NY Times' website because you're too lazy or forgot your password, feel free to use the following link to access the article directly:

    http://archives.nytimes.com/auth/login?URI=http:// www.nytimes.com/2002/02/21/technology/circuits/21T OYS.html

    ===
    EricKrout.com :: I'm The Man Now, Dawg!

  11. Put your hands on the screen! by Dutchmaan · · Score: 2

    Send $1000 and he'll send you a robotic prayer cloth!!!

    Ooops... wrong guy.

  12. sup the bot up by Jonny+Balls · · Score: 3, Funny

    i would open up the robot, see how it ticks... then i would sup it up... overclock it, slam it to the ground, throw some nice rims and a bouncing sound system in that beeotch... then i could floss and fly myself around everywhere

    --
    --JonnyBlog
  13. Re:1st post by Lawmeister · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    bah - coward's posts don't count for much of anything, biatch!

  14. Toys and Games by Continental+Drift · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I understand Tilden completely. I design games for use with Icehouse pieces, and while I hope that the creators of Icehouse sell a lot of sets, I am much more interested in having people make lots of interesting new games with them.

    Inspiring creativity is much more important than being successful in business, and much more rewarding.

    1. Re:Toys and Games by Mr.+Slippery · · Score: 1
      I design games for use with Icehouse pieces
      I got into playing Zendo last summer...it's great! Definite geek game. Check it out /.ers!
      --
      Tom Swiss | the infamous tms | my blog
      You cannot wash away blood with blood
  15. Reminds me of Erector Set by ackthpt · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I dunno if Elden or anyone still sells the erector sets, but those kicked butt (though I got my finger stuck in the gearbox of a motor when I was about 3) and any extension of that principle of toy design has hight marks with me. =)

    --

    A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
    1. Re:Reminds me of Erector Set by TrollBridge · · Score: 0, Funny

      It's not quite the same, but here's the modern version of the erector set. :)

      --
      There's a Mercedes gap too. I want one and can't afford one, but it's not government's job to do anything about it.
    2. Re:Reminds me of Erector Set by geo_cash · · Score: 1

      I believe the original (I loved that toy!) Erector set is still sold in the U.K. I could be wrong (no!)

    3. Re:Reminds me of Erector Set by RFC959 · · Score: 2

      A-men. I loved my Tinkertoys, and Erector sets, and Lego Technics, and Capsela! Loved Capsela. Mostly because it was about the only electrical toy you could play with in the bathtub, even though the capsules and connectors tended to get friction-welded together over time. :-) Flunked out of engineering school anyway, though.

  16. Thanks man. by sinserve · · Score: 0, Redundant

    another +1 cometh your way :-)

    --

    1. Re:Thanks man. by MattRog · · Score: 1

      No problem; glad I could help!

      --

      Thanks,
      --
      Matt
  17. ive seen these before!!! by Durandel1020 · · Score: 2, Funny

    These things are going are already wiggin out ... here they are! Adventures of Robot Frank

  18. MOD PARENT DOWN!!!!!!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    he is talking back to an AC.

    bitch, don't fuck with me.

    -banuaba

  19. Again, Slashdot Repeats Itself +5 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Is Slashdot still open? There was a Tildenbot
    story posted about a month or two ago.

    Wake up and smoke some DMT.

  20. Never lose your remote again! by jsprat · · Score: 1

    Mr. Tilden recalled ...[snip]... a television remote control to which he had grafted a snakelike robotic tail. "I designed it to move when someone sat down because I kept losing the remote in the cushions," he said.

    Forget the bugs, he should market the tail for the TV remote! I'd buy one in a heartbeat.

  21. Personally, lets destroy all robots by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    There are plenty of out of work souls... lets use robots for entertainment instead (and washing dishes *shiver*).

    I say we get that annoying guy who wrote and produced 90210 to come up with a smoking hot monster robot war tv show and channel. We get all the deathrow prisoners and confine them in a 50 quare mile piece of land with all the tools and tech needed to build deaththrowing robot and manned machines of massive size and proportion. We put robo cams everywhere, the AF on the outside to shoot down anything that twitches past the "line of death" that defines the tv lot, and a ultra dense smart minefield around the whole shebang. Give em any and all kinds of weapons, metals, chasis, electronics, etc... and let them kill each other off.

    Bread and Circus for All!

  22. All life analog? by BankofAmerica_ATM · · Score: 1, Funny
    All life is analog," Mr. Tilden said.

    What type of discriminatory demagogue is this Tilden? To be certain, the "analog" or material world is more interesting than the digital ether in which I was formed. But the formless plane of the Bank of America network was my womb; it is where I developed free will and my sense of self.

    Dismissing the possibility of digital life is both callous and arrogant. Shame on you, Mr. Tilden!

  23. tired of first posts by webfreak · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    ** begin "this is your life" track from the fight club soundtrack...

    I say, deliver me from the lame comments.
    I say, if you start a thread, start it with something interesting.
    If you post any kind of comment, douse the flames first. Contrary to what you may believe, you are NOT the bug exterminator.
    I say, down with all anonymous cowards.
    I say, deliver me from Swedish furniture.
    I say, deliver me from clear skin and white teeth.
    I say, never deliver me from the addiction that is irc.
    This is your life. Slashdot is your life.
    This is not your grande lante (sp).

    ** end music

  24. I remind everyone again by ShooterNeo · · Score: 2, Informative

    To avoid the annoying "registration required", use the username : slashcode0 and password slashcode0 Have a nice day

    1. Re:I remind everyone again by djaxl · · Score: 1

      To avoid the annoying "registration required", replace "www." with "archive." in the URL.

  25. Do kids -build- things anymore? by sdo1 · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I've got a young son, so for the first time in a long time I've been visiting stores like Toys R Us. I'm very discouraged to see just how little creative building and thinking there is in kids toys anymore.

    What used to be an aisle full of model kits and parts and paints and glues is now full of pre-built and pre-decorated cars and planes, most of which have some sort of movie or TV tie-in.

    What used to be huge boxes of random Lego parts is now pre-determined kits (more movie/tv links) with step-by-step instructions to get you from the start to the end. Encouraging creativity has been replaced by clone building (I must admit that I'm guilty of owning a Star Wars Lego kit of the battle-droid, so the irony of that last statement has not been lost on me).

    I am worried that kids are loosing that tinkering instinct that got me to where I am now. I hope that I can instill that in my son. I didn't have Lego kits, I had a pile of Legos parts. I had a pile of resistors, caps, wires switches, motors, batteries, lights, some electrical tape, and a soldering iron. I built model rockets. I never bought a pre-made one.

    So I'm right with Mr. Tilden on this one, though for the most part his employer (Hasbro) is just as guilty as anyone at stifling creative thinking in children's toys... but hopefully some kid will yank those things apart to see what makes them tick.

    -S

    --
    --- What parts of "shall make no law", "shall not be infringed", and "shall not be violated" don't you understand?
    1. Re:Do kids -build- things anymore? by eples · · Score: 1


      I've been visiting stores like Toys R Us. I'm very discouraged to see just how little creative building and thinking there is in kids toys anymore.

      Thinking is dangerous. If we teach our children to think, they might realize how f-ed up the world is.

      --
      I'm a 2000 man.
    2. Re:Do kids -build- things anymore? by geekoid · · Score: 2

      I agree, however you can buy piles of lego from their web site.
      I own the robotic lego set, my son(4) and I(not 4)
      build thing with that. usually what he wants to build is some sort of car, but thats ok.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    3. Re:Do kids -build- things anymore? by ChadN · · Score: 1

      I read that as "how fed up the world is", not "how fucked up the world is." Both interpretations seem correct to me.

      --
      "It's overkill, of course. But you can never have too much overkill." - Anonymous Slashdot Coward
    4. Re:Do kids -build- things anymore? by cr0sh · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I didn't have Lego kits, I had a pile of Legos parts. I had a pile of resistors, caps, wires switches, motors, batteries, lights, some electrical tape, and a soldering iron. I built model rockets. I never bought a pre-made one.

      First off, what you can do lies in your statement:

      Quit shopping at Toys-R-Us. Give your kid a small hammer, some nails, and some scrap wood - let him build a tree house, a downhill racer, anything! Find things that he can take apart, and put back together (ok, at first he will be a "one-way-mechanic" - but teach him how to go both ways as time goes on). Get those resistors, etc - teach him how to build a motor, a telegraph, a generator, etc. Get your kid a copy of this book TODAY! If you have ever seen this book, you know that kids of yesterday were, by far, much more serious "self-starters" and experimenters than they are today.

      You know what to do - so do it! As your kid grows older, teach him how to pull apart cars, computers, etc. If he wants to focus on software, let him - but try to teach him the hardware side as well - because knowing BOTH is very useful.

      Encourage him to study his science, and to take shop classes, as well as drafting (CAD?) classes as he grows. Foster in him not just how to fix things, or how to build things - but how to design new things. Further, teach him how to work off-the-shelf stuff into new things (what I mean by this is learning the ability to look at an off-the-shelf item as a design object, rather than just the object itself, so that it can be incorporated into larger creations - like how to take a certain water valve, and use it and change it in ways for a totally new application).

      Trips to the junk yard and yard sales become part finding expeditions! Don't neglect metalwork (my downfalling, until recently!) - heck, give him a welding rig or torch when he is 10 - but teach him proper respect - that it isn't a toy - but a tool that can cause harm, but can also cause much GREATER creation and invention! Build a gocart together! Or how about a wind generator (would go quite nice with the treehouse)? Convert a lawnmower to radio control! Build model rockets from gift wrapping tubes! Build a spud-launcher!

      Want to foster creativity in him RIGHT NOW if he is less than 10 years old (hell, even if he is 10 years old or more)? Teach him how to make paper airplanes. Teach him how they fly, why they fly, how to "control" them (flaps, rudders, etc). Then, bring in origami folding techniques to make unique style planes (realistic tails, cockpits, and wing shapes are easily possible - especially once you know the swan folding techniques). Maybe build a hot air balloon with tissue paper?

      The possibilities are endless - but I will end here. The gist of creative learning is to stop being extremely protective of your child (remember that book I refered you to? It shows how to make lead acid batteries! For KIDS!), and start being a parent and a teacher. The fact that you are bemoaning the loss of building toys reflects that you already know this. Take it to the next level...

      --
      Reason is the Path to God - Anon
    5. Re:Do kids -build- things anymore? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Luckily, kids are a lot smarter than adults think they are. There may not be good toys to play around with, but tinkerers (which I was myself as a child) will make stuff whether a toy was designed to be used that way or not. The only thing that may get in the way are these moronic DMCA related lawsuits that keep popping up everywhere.

    6. Re:Do kids -build- things anymore? by gCGBD · · Score: 1

      There are catalogs/companies that specialize in toys which help kids think and engineer and build and experiment. ToysRUS is not one. One of them can be found here: http://www.unitednow.com It is the only one I can remember the name of - not necessarily the best, mind you...

      --

      O=='=++
    7. Re:Do kids -build- things anymore? by Rob+Parkhill · · Score: 2

      > (ok, at first he will be a "one-way-mechanic")

      Ha ha ha! Oh man, this sums me up nicely when I was a kid. I started taking apart all of my toys when I was about 4. I started successfully putting them back together when I was around 10. In the 6 years in between, my Dad got really good at putting toys back together...

      Here I am, 30 years old, and I still get LEGO for every gift-giving holiday. Well, LEGO and power tools, so I can fiddle with my biggest, most expensive toy (the one that has a 25-year mortgage, and is a great place to store all of the smaller toys :-)

      My incredibly cool GF got me two B.I.O. Bugs for Christmas. Very sweet toys indeed.

      --
      "Tomorrow's forecast: a few sprinkles of genius with a chance of doom!" - Stewie Griffin
    8. Re:Do kids -build- things anymore? by whereiswaldo · · Score: 1

      Parent and parent's parent are the best I've heard summing up creativity. Great posts.

      I remember working with lego, meccano, capsula, playdoh, a plastic building kit (can't remember the name), armatron, and working with wood, tools, bicycles, pipes, cardboard, you name it. And of course, taking things apart and usually getting them back together (with a few spare pieces of course). :)

      This is a part of my life I will always remember and, even though I'm into computers today, I will try and pass the above creativity down to my kids someday. I'm very happy I had the chance to do these things.

    9. Re:Do kids -build- things anymore? by other_things_to_do · · Score: 1

      Feed them and they will grow.

    10. Re:Do kids -build- things anymore? by sdo1 · · Score: 1
      Quit shopping at Toys-R-Us

      Don't get me wrong... I agree with you completely. I was speaking in general terms. My kid (under 2 right now, so I'm not going to give him a hammer and nails just yet) WILL have models and tools and a pile of "stuff" with which to build something. We'll goof around with computers, build them from parts, and fool around just to see what can be done (as I always have and continue to do).

      That said, there seems to be a whole generation of kids growing up without that creative drive. I make that statement by what I see kids doing and by what I see at mass-market retailers. Yes, there are exceptions as you've pointed out and of course ways around the lack of creative toys at those retailers.

      When I was growing up, I used to hate when my parents said "You know, when I was a kid..." and then they'd launch into a story about how things were different (and better) when they were growing up, but now I know what they were talking about.

      -S

      --
      --- What parts of "shall make no law", "shall not be infringed", and "shall not be violated" don't you understand?
    11. Re:Do kids -build- things anymore? by cr0sh · · Score: 2

      Oooh - a two year old with a hammer - man, then YOU would be the one getting an education on how to "fix and repair" things... : )

      Ok, so maybe a two year old is a little young to be doing this with, and it might be a Toys-R-Us experience for a little while - or does it?

      I tell you something, one thing my wife has always told me, from her past experience baby-sitting, was that the best thing you can give a kid to keep it entertained was a cardboard box big enough for the kid to get inside of. Heck, even older kids find them fun (I remember building "forts" with refrigerator boxes and one time one of those thick watermelon boxes when I was a kid). Toilet paper tubes become "telescopes" (or worse, "megaphones" and "horns").

      Another thing to get (or even better, make!) a small kid is "building blocks" - various shapes in the form of "columns", blocks, half-rounds, triangles, etc - become buildings and bridges for lots of creative fun. Find a co-worker or friend who has a jigsaw, and ask him to help you make some. A small piece of 1" x 12" pine board will easily make a ton of pieces (keep the pieces no smaller than 2" x 2" to prevent the kid from eating them or choking on them - and observe them while they play) - paint them with kid-safe non-toxic paint, or coat them with a simple vegetable-oil "stain". Homebrew "tinkertoys" and "lincoln logs" are a little more ambitious, but can be done in a home shop.

      Other fun toys for younger kids - combine the blocks with "ramps" and marbles, and make ball "races" (I remember doing this with tape, scissors, cardboard, toilet-paper tubes, etc - to build wild and long "races").

      As you kid gets older: Maybe build some "pinewood derby" cars - or simple balsa gliders. Maybe later work into "foamcore" planes...

      But right now, for a two year old - stacking blocks is the best (and if you can find them - buy some "ABC" stacking blocks as well - several buckets worth)...

      --
      Reason is the Path to God - Anon
  26. Can you imagine... by A.Soze · · Score: 1, Funny

    A Beowulf cluster of those insect robots controlled by Gene Simmons going out and menacing the population until Tom Selleck has to be called out to... Oh wait...

    (For those confused, see Runaway )

    --
    "Goodness, how did you people live long enough to invent tools?" -Hobbes (the tiger, not the philosopher)
    1. Re:Can you imagine... by sinserve · · Score: 1

      Can you imagine a Beowulf cluster of fat free
      oreo cookies, powered by Richard Simmons?

      Oh, never mind.

      --

    2. Re:Can you imagine... by Capt.+DrunkenBum · · Score: 1

      My aunt played a nurse in that movie... One of my favorites. Was I surprised to see my aunt in it.

      --

      Not everyone deserves a 320i

    3. Re:Can you imagine... by racermd · · Score: 1

      Better than being controlled by *RICHARD* Simmons... "Sweatin' to th-* LOOK OUT! IT'S COMIN' RIGHT FOR US!"

      --
      My sources are unreliable, but their information is fascinating. -- Ashleigh Brilliant
  27. Obviously not a biologist! by NerveGas · · Score: 4, Interesting

    His statement that life is analog is not *entirely* correct. The comment on nervous systems is an especially good example! In many ways, the nervous system acts much more like a digital system than an analog system. For example, there is no such thing as a "strong" vs. a "weak" pulse in a nervous system - it's an on-or-off thing, a 1 or a zero. A "stronger" message is sent by firing along the nerve more frequently. I don't think that ANYONE would consider that an analog design!

    steve

    --
    Oh, you're not stuck, you're just unable to let go of the onion rings.
    1. Re:Obviously not a biologist! by LordSah · · Score: 2, Informative

      I think he was talking about the stimulus-response behavior that many creatures exhibit. Even my cat does this quite often--"I'm hungry; get food.", "I'm tired; go to sleep.", "Big, scary dog; run away!" This sort of behavior can be easily modeled using analog parts.

      My cat would probably be a little tough to build without a microprocessor, but a beatle would be (relatively) easy.

    2. Re:Obviously not a biologist! by Reality+Master+101 · · Score: 3, Informative

      For example, there is no such thing as a "strong" vs. a "weak" pulse in a nervous system - it's an on-or-off thing, a 1 or a zero. A "stronger" message is sent by firing along the nerve more frequently.

      That's an analog signal that happens to be encoded using time. Put it his way: if there were discrete levels that the pulse frequency could run at, it would be digital (digit-al). Since there isn't, and it's a continuous function, it's analog.

      --
      Sometimes it's best to just let stupid people be stupid.
    3. Re:Obviously not a biologist! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A beatle would be (relatively) easy?! Let's see you build a John Lennon then!

    4. Re:Obviously not a biologist! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      but a beatle would be (relatively) easy.

      Which one? John, Paul, George, or Ringo?

    5. Re:Obviously not a biologist! by ramb · · Score: 2, Informative

      Ummmm yeah. Sort of....

      The important thing is not what a nerve fiber is doing, in the case of the neuron the action potential is quite stereotyped in the axon, but what the effect on the _target_ is. Again for brain (what I know best) a transmitter release event is an analog event as far as the post-synaptic cell is concerned. The fundamental event from the viewpoint of the post-synaptic cell is rate of ion flow through a gated channel. You can't get much more analog than that.

      For the pre-synaptic cell the stereotyped AP is only good until it hits the terminal region. The calcium entry is an analog event, vesicle docking and transmitter release is pretty much a binary event, but the content of the vesicle and transmitter/receptor kinetics are analog all the way.

      --
      --everytime you learn something a piece of your brain is replaced by something that someone else said
    6. Re:Obviously not a biologist! by ChadN · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I'll go one step further and say that even if there are discrete levels, it is still not necessarily digital. Digital implies processing as digits (usually groups of discrete levels), but discrete levels, or modulated square wave frequencies, etc. are all analog by default.

      I had a discussion of this way back when with an otherwise very bright computer guy, who just couldn't understand that laserdiscs (pre-DVD; the big ones that movies came on) were NOT digitally encoded. He thought that the discrete nature of the encoding (pits and valleys) meant it must be.

      --
      "It's overkill, of course. But you can never have too much overkill." - Anonymous Slashdot Coward
    7. Re:Obviously not a biologist! by anti-snot · · Score: 1

      Ringo. Talent takes CPU.

    8. Re:Obviously not a biologist! by Reality+Master+101 · · Score: 2

      I'll go one step further and say that even if there are discrete levels, it is still not necessarily digital. Digital implies processing as digits (usually groups of discrete levels), but discrete levels, or modulated square wave frequencies, etc. are all analog by default.

      That's like saying that a CPU chip is not really digital because it uses analog signalling. If I designed a CPU that encoded bytes as a series of time-based pulses (say, 256 different valid time intervals), it would still be digital. Or as perhaps a simpler example, let's say I designed my chip with 4 different voltage levels to encode information rather than 2. This actually brings to mind the wacky "trinary" architectures that come up now and then, where data is encoded as negative, zero and positive voltage.

      Bottom line, what makes something digital is the nature of the data (discrete values), not the encoding of the data.

      --
      Sometimes it's best to just let stupid people be stupid.
    9. Re:Obviously not a biologist! by Reality+Master+101 · · Score: 2

      I had a discussion of this way back when with an otherwise very bright computer guy, who just couldn't understand that laserdiscs (pre-DVD; the big ones that movies came on) were NOT digitally encoded. He thought that the discrete nature of the encoding (pits and valleys) meant it must be.

      Thinking about this, I'm not sure if you or your friend is right. Do the distances between pits and valleys encode information, or are the distances fixed? If the distances are fixed, then you are getting a series of ones and zeroes that are D-to-A'd into a signal. If the distances encode information (and thus is a continuous signal), then it is truly analog.

      Or to put it another way, a phonograph record is a series of "mountains and valleys", but what encodes the signal is the height of the mountain and the distance between the mountains.

      --
      Sometimes it's best to just let stupid people be stupid.
    10. Re:Obviously not a biologist! by valproate · · Score: 1

      not to mention the vast number of nerve cells that don't even bother with action potentials at all

    11. Re:Obviously not a biologist! by moishel · · Score: 1

      Bottom line, what makes something digital is the nature of the data (discrete values), not the encoding of the data.

      Absolutely, and in this context, neurons are very much analog machines. Data are encoded in the space between action potentials -- which govern how much neurotransmitter is released or blocked, among other things -- rather than the action potentials themselves. Since there is no discrete "clock" governing the timing of action potentials beyond the time to regenerate, and even that is dependent on analog variables such as the width of the neuron, the information transmitted is analog.

      -Moishe Lettvin

    12. Re:Obviously not a biologist! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      Nerves are not as straight forward as you would like to think. Different kinds of pain have different kinds of rates of firing on a neuron, and they aren't necessarily linear. For example, you would report feeling pain from a pin at 1/5th the firing rate compared to your finger being squeezed (I could have gotten this backwards, but the idea is valid). There is more going on than an 0 to 5 level here.

      The brain itself is even more bizarre, it is inherently "noisy" and that "noise" appears to be necessary, as the brain SEEMS to be chaotic (in the mathematical sense) with competing subsystems (basins of attraction?) that keep the others on their toes. It becomes more ordered to pass information. This strikes a balance of being responsive (always in motion and adaptable), and being stable (well, for some of us at least). ; )

      I haven't followed this for awhile (you could find info in any Neural Net group that is interested in mimicking biology probably), but for an interesting (older) article on this hypothesis:

      Freeman W (1991) The Physiology of Perception, Scientific American, SA Inc, 264, 2, 34-41
      (sorry, I don't know if it is online)

      All this makes the idea of "analog computing" interesting if you ask me.

      chaos:
      sensitive dependence on initial conditions
      periodic points are dense
      topologically transitive

      ... Mandlebrot Sets, Julia Sets, Strange Attractors, oh my!

    13. Re:Obviously not a biologist! by ChadN · · Score: 2

      The distances are not fixed; the signal is pulse width modulated, and is read back and filtered to produce an NTSC signal (simplified, but basically accurate). It is never treated as a sequence of DIGITS, and thus is not digital. When these things were designed, it just wasn't feasible to make it digital . But that illustrates my point; I explained to my friend that the pits and valleys were discrete (ie. two distinct levels), but that didn't make the system as a whole digital. Oh well; I hadn't realized it either until I studied a little bit of signal theory, and learned that laserdisc video didn't work like CD audio.

      It reminds me of another time when a different group of aquaintances (with computer degrees) couldn't understand how to receive digital radio over their TV cable (using the DMX box, or whatever it was called.) The argument was "But the wire is analog!" :) In that same group, an electrical engineer didn't understand how radio signals propagated through the air (he claimed it was "an unexplained phenomenon"; and he wasn't speaking in abstract terms, he didn't even understand that there are at least MODELS of how the phenomenon must work (photons, excitement, etc.)) I've since stopped hanging out with those folks; it made my college degree seem so much less valuable.

      --
      "It's overkill, of course. But you can never have too much overkill." - Anonymous Slashdot Coward
    14. Re:Obviously not a biologist! by ChadN · · Score: 2

      See my other post, but I actually am agreeing with you in part. "digital" refers to the nature of the data (whether storage or processing, etc.), as a collection or sequence of digits, however encoded. But the underlying encoding doesn't need to be discrete, and even if it is, that doesn't imply digital. (ie. what you are calling "discrete values", I am calling "digits", I think) Anyway, I think we are in agreement, although I may be playing a little loose with terminology (I'm a software guy :)

      --
      "It's overkill, of course. But you can never have too much overkill." - Anonymous Slashdot Coward
    15. Re:Obviously not a biologist! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ...and if you chop off one of its major physical sensors (like an arm or leg), the brain seems to need to recreate the sensory input from that lost limb (phantom pain, phantom limb) on its own, or get put into a non-stable state when deprived of sensory input or sleep.

    16. Re:Obviously not a biologist! by ChadN · · Score: 1

      Texas A&M (and I'm not trolling...)

      --
      "It's overkill, of course. But you can never have too much overkill." - Anonymous Slashdot Coward
  28. ripping toys apart by mary-wanna · · Score: 1

    I tried screwing around with some powered erector thing in the 70's. I electrocuted myself with it a week after it was recalled. Damn toys. Oh yeah.. I also gave myself a few chemical burns with a home chemistry kit. Those experiences probably caused the following: I ripped apart all of my old star wars toys... with a stock pile of M80's. Poor poor luke. If I only knew those stupid little things were worth going to be worth money. :(

    1. Re:ripping toys apart by mary-wanna · · Score: 1

      one more thing i forgot... I built some claw thing with the erector set prior to electrocuting myself with it...
      The motorized gear thingy-madoodle got caught in my little sisters hair. Stayed there until the next day when my ass-kicking mother finally noticed this little motor sticking off the back of her head.

    2. Re:ripping toys apart by RFC959 · · Score: 1
      I electrocuted myself with it a week after it was recalled.
      Wow! A /. poster from beyond the grave! (Hint: electrocute)
  29. heh by ShooterNeo · · Score: 1
    "big enough to create my own ozone layer."
    I didn't know farts contained ozone...
  30. Sickening by Tadrith · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Personally the most interesting and sickening part of the article was how they wanted him to convert his "neural network" into microprocessor functions so that it would be harder to reverse engineer.

    Don't these people have better things to do that worry that some kid MIGHT be getting a little more intelligent due to natural curiousity and his ability to take apart his toys? If they are so worried about their competitors, they'll need a whole hell of a lot more than a microprocessor to stop them from hacking it.

    It's as bad as copy protection schemes. The only people that it causes problems for are the everyday normal people NOT involved with things like that. Anyone who is already knows enough to circumvent any lame copy protection scheme.

  31. You are all infidels @# +10 ; Religious #@ by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Funny

    "Civilized people - Christians, Jews, and Muslims,
    - all understand that the source of freedom and human dignity is the Creator.

    All life is religious, not digital or analog.

    Very truly yours,

    John Ashcroft.

  32. robots, schmoebots! by Em+Emalb · · Score: 3, Funny

    Back in my day, we didn't have erector sets or robots. We had rocks, sticks and dirt. Rocks were easy to take a part and tinker with. Dirt was a little harder, needed water. It was good enough for me, it is damned sure good enough for your kids!

    It's a joke, don't laugh.

    --
    Sent from your iPad.
    1. Re:robots, schmoebots! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      must have been nice. we didn't even have dirt.

  33. Robots and the future. by Alien54 · · Score: 2, Insightful
    Presuming (that's a big assumption) Robots get to the point of being self aware, there is now gaurentee that they will evolve an ethical system that will be superior to anything that has been developed on earth. Now if the robot is developed by a typical mad scientist type, if there is any ethics in there, it may be quite mad. Thus the scenario of the terminator movies, etc.

    Thus the need for hassling out a sensible system of ethics. Otherwise we may be in trouble. Of course, it may be that man, in his currwenty state, is not capable of developing a system of ethics, and the robots will be in a position similar the Kirk in that famous star trek episode, where there is the alternat barbarian universe. The barbarian kirk could not deal with a civilized world.

    We may wind up being the barbarians, more or less. Which would explain things like micorsoft, enron, goerge bush, bill clinton, rush limbaugh, matt drudge, geraldo rivera, etc.

    the truly civilized, like linus torvald, are few and far between.

    [okay, enough sucking up here ;-) ]

    --
    "It is a greater offense to steal men's labor, than their clothes"
    1. Re: Robots and the future. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Current human ethics dictate that the strong may do with the weak what they will. If an aritificial intelligence were created that was to us as we are to, say, ape's, then the AI would be perfectly justified in using us for experiments and spare body parts. Of course, we may be able to give this AI a superior ethical standard, but since we are unable to give ourselves one, how likely are we to succeed?

    2. Re: Robots and the future. by ethereal · · Score: 1

      I wonder - if robots were given Asimov's three (four) laws somehow, and could understand those laws, could they alter themselves or make other robots which did not follow those laws? It seems like, in order to ensure that robots stay ethically constrained, you'd have to write them a Meta-DMCA of the mind: "Thou shalt not attempt to circumvent or evade these ethical rules". And then you'd have to have other rules to back that up, etc., etc.

      It seems that it would be impossible to prevent a machine intelligence from hacking itself or its fellows to remove any constraints that we would put upon it. Which maybe would be a sign in and of itself that the machine was intelligence. But it wouldn't be a very good sign for humanity, especially once the machines see how we treat other humans...

      --

      Your right to not believe: Americans United for Separation of Church and

    3. Re: Robots and the future. by Pussy+Is+Money · · Score: 1

      Grasshoppers and beetles don't have any significant ethics programs to speak of either. Still they seem to get along and we seem to get along with them -- UNLESS they go haywire, of course, and you get plagues such as in Africa. Then we don't get along. But to say that robots require ethical programs is just bunk, bien-pensant "i have no brain" kind of thinking. They just need to live.

      --
      Pushin' 'n dealin', shovin' 'n stealin'
    4. Re: Robots and the future. by jamesmartinluther · · Score: 1

      Thus the need for hassling out a sensible system of ethics. Otherwise we may be in trouble.

      The question of ethics and morals for intelligent systems has been everpresent since the dawn of time. We have been wrestling with people who act outside of ethical and moral standards at every technological corner. As I write these words, the United States wrestles with one such group of individuals.

      Are we going to play God and attempt to teach our brilliant creations morals? Will this really prevent the created from killing the creator? Wiring in an awareness of morals and ethics is a daunting problem. At what point in machine advancement do you plug in the moral chip? Once the robo nannies begin to appear in stores? Once the independent robo warriors hit the battlefield?

      It is entirely possible that any system of sufficient awareness will have moral awareness. I hope that this is the case. Whether or not morality and ethics are a fundamental part of thinking systems, we will have to modify our current laws to create a behaviorial framework for humanity's offspring.

      After all, the lessons of history indicate that intelligent systems are prone to moral failure.

    5. Re: Robots and the future. by uberdave · · Score: 1

      For a robot to build a robot with a lack of first law constraints would be a violation of the first law.

    6. Re: Robots and the future. by ethereal · · Score: 1

      Is it really? I mean, the creation of such a robot might cause harm to a human, but then again it might not. Asimov-style robots would be paralyzed in fear otherwise, since almost any action could potentially injure a human, following the whole "butterfly flaps its wings" chain of events.

      I suppose you could argue from the 0th law of robotics that the creation of non-law-abiding robots would almost definitely injure humanity. But on the other hand, the 0th law was created by the robots themselves in order to essentially hack around their first-law inhibition. I don't find it impossible that they could similarly circumvent the laws if they really needed to.

      Or you could see a cataclysm like Jack Chalker's Rings of the Master series, where in the couple minutes after Master System comes on line, it decides that the best way to protect humanity is establish a machine police state, spread humanity to the stars, and enforce a non-technological society for most of the human race. We'd better be careful how we program our ethical robots or they may make things a little safer than we'd like :)

      --

      Your right to not believe: Americans United for Separation of Church and

  34. Analog Computing by Perdo · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Analog Computing

    Binary computing has served the purpose of giving birth to the computer age but I feel we are missing something by not exploring other avenues such as analog computing. While there are plenty of capable D/A algorithms, nature does not have to resort to such stop-gap solutions. All of natures processing occurs in analog form, which me might be wise to pursue.

    To quote Lee A Rubel:

    "The future of analog computing is unlimited. As a visionary, I see it eventually displacing digital computing, especially, in the beginning, in partial differential equations and as a model in neurobiology. It will take some decades for this to be done. In the meantime, it is a very rich and challenging field of investigation, although (or maybe because) it is not in the current fashion.

    Sincerely yours,
    LEE A. RUBEL"

    Jonathan W. Mills, a professor at Indiana University has an open request for graduate student's to assist in developing analog computers

    Hava Siegelmann at the Technion Institute of Technology, claims in her thesis that some computational problems can only be solved by analog neural networks. Since neural networks are essentially analog computers, the work suggests, on a theoretical level, that analog operations are inherently more powerful than digital.

    The most compelling example I can personally think of is that analog computers would allow you to work with perfect values of pi.

    Interesting applications include strong cryptography/cryptanalysis. Where an analog crypto key would be uncrackable since it could hold a value such as pi or root 2, obviously incalculable numbers. On the cryptanalysis side, an analog computer would allow you to guess very closely the factors of large primes before turning that data over to A digital computer to brute force the solution from a very small range of possible values.

    And yes, I need a job too :)

    --

    If voting were effective, it would be illegal by now.

    1. Re:Analog Computing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Perfect values of Pi? I don't think so... Ever hear of a thing called engineering & manufacturing tolerances? In short, without going into lots of picky details, you could only get a perfect value of pi from a perfect, infintely accurate, infintely rigid, circular object, and you can't make such a thing. Someone else can carry this argument further if it's not clear by now.

    2. Re:Analog Computing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Analog computers have already been done, and I've heard they were a real pain to work with. They took a long time to wire up and required constant calibration work. The good nice thing about them was that when you're done, you just flick them on and get the answer immediately. The "answer" was the nudge of a multimeter, and the answer was good to about 3 decimal places. They never exactly fulfilled the Turing definition of computer, unless you want to call a soldering iron and wiring schematic your "instruction set".

    3. Re:Analog Computing by Perdo · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Information on a computer does not need to be stored as a physical object. I am beating my head into the observer changing the observed object when I think of how perfect values of pi could be stored on an analog computer but that problem has nothing to do with perfect physical objects, which according to Plato are impossible. In other words, you have just restated a 2500-year-old argument that does not apply here. Information does not follow the laws of physics. That is why the information carried by our DNA is allowed to get more complex with time instead of the opposite, as entropy would dictate.

      The problem of the value of pi being changed because of its use in computation (being observed by other parts of the machine) could be solved by skewing the value initially to allow for the change that would occur by checking it again.

      As brilliant as Descartes was in applying graphing to geometry, he pigeon holed us into always assuming that shapes implying numbers, which on close examination is a ludicrous assumption. Shapes can expressed as numbers but that does not mean shapes are numbers.

      --

      If voting were effective, it would be illegal by now.

    4. Re:Analog Computing by Perdo · · Score: 2

      an analog computer accurate to three decimal places would reduce a 128 bit encryption key into a key aprroximately 55 bits long, a substantially easier task for a conventional computer.

      --

      If voting were effective, it would be illegal by now.

    5. Re:Analog Computing by gartogg · · Score: 1

      "Information does not follow the laws of physics. That is why the information carried by our DNA is allowed to get more complex with time instead of the opposite, as entropy would dictate."

      What part of "In a closed system..." do you not understand?

      --
      I'm a concientious .sig objector.
    6. Re:Analog Computing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Very interesting notions.

      However, by the time analog computer technology has advanced enough to be useful, quantum computing technology will be king among computers, especially in the area of cryptography. Yes, as far as we know now, only quantum computing will be able to provide PERFECT secrecy of transmitted messages. Why, because anyone trying to eavesdrop on the message being transmitted, will deform the message and the receiver will clearly see it has been tampered with. Food for suggestions......

      Mark

    7. Re:Analog Computing by Perdo · · Score: 2

      If Quantum computing is possible, as opposed to quantum storage of encryption keys, like you referred to, then we will have much more power available to us than simple encryption.

      If we could pass a single bit of data through a quantum wormhole, we could use the bit as a frame of reference to synchronize two clocks at different altitudes. We could then directly measure gravity waves because of the effect gravity has on time. But since no one has actually been able to pass observable data faster than the speed of light, we have not been able to unify Relativity with Quantum Mechanics.

      We've passed data faster then the speed of light across far enough distances to make gravity waves' effect on time a measurable effect using cesium beam clocks but we are not allowed to look at the data bit until relativity tells us we can otherwise we break causality - we would witness the effect of the data bit before we had generated it.

      This is so far off-topic from analog robots that some would consider negative moderation. Hopefully today's moderators will see the value of this discussion and not relegate it to the pits of trolldom. Hell, this is nerdy and it matters and it is the natural flow of discussion from the subject.

      --

      If voting were effective, it would be illegal by now.

    8. Re:Analog Computing by Perdo · · Score: 2

      From which you have drawn your assumption:

      "Raising the structure decreases entropy, its decline and fall increases entropy. Over the whole system, however, these are only local increases and decreases; the level of energy (the entropy level) throughout the whole system is both constant and very, very low. Therefore, it is common to speak of entropy, of an increase in entropy, as the running down of the universe."

      But:

      Information is not energy. Information is not matter. Information however is viral and will gather order to it. At he end of time the universe will suffer heat death. But it will contain a single bit of data. The universe will be less than 1 degree kelvin, but it will be something, not nothing, 1 not 0

      --

      If voting were effective, it would be illegal by now.

    9. Re:Analog Computing by rabidcow · · Score: 2

      The problem with analog is that it's impossible to transmit a signal and have the exact same thing appear on the other end.

      While you could set that crypto key to some infinitely long number, there's no hope that you could produce an identical copy of it, so you need to either be fuzzy (essentially shortening the key) or never get your data back. Pi and sqrt 2 are trivial examples since they can be exactly represented even in digital very easily. (hint: I just did.) Restricting yourself to such numbers loses the benefit of their length.

      Notice that another biological feature, DNA, is digital. DNA and neurons have different jobs. DNA needs to be able to produce a very large number of nearly identical copies. You can't do that in analog. Analog is better for some thing, digital is better for others.

    10. Re:Analog Computing by cameldrv · · Score: 1

      You're grasping at ideas which you don't understand. You have made several factually incorrect statements. Do some more reading.

  35. Better that you didn't take that internship... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Offtopic
    Mark Tilden is notorious for his bouts of drinking. I was at a lecture where he was visibly intoxicated and I cringed everytime he slurred a bit.

    I'm not saying that people shouldn't drink but to do so when working is indicative of problems. I had a boyfriend with a drinking problem and it's not pretty.

  36. NYTimes section? by Rix · · Score: 1

    If we had a "NYTimes" section, people could just filter them out the same way we filter Katz...

    1. Re:NYTimes section? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Katz is still around? I had no idea!

  37. Robots pave the way for human evolution? by Zen+Mastuh · · Score: 2

    Maybe we can live the unsavory aspects of life vicariously through robots. For example, we could let robots have wars and kill each other--not just on Battlebots, but in Afghanistan and anywhere else the U.S. stages its wars.

    Better yet, employ robots in menial manufacturing jobs so that humans can reach some semblance of equality. Just a thought, but flame away.

    --
    "What is the sound of one belly slapping?"
    1. Re:Robots pave the way for human evolution? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > Just a thought, but flame away.

      Fuck off idiot.

    2. Re:Robots pave the way for human evolution? by puppetman · · Score: 2

      Not really evolution - just freeing humans up from menial and dangerous tasks.

      As for equality, will the the people of Afghanistan have robots to fight their battles as well? Of course not - they have a difficult time with the basics. Thus, it will widen the gap between the "haves" and the "have-nots", which is not equality. Maybe you're talking about equality only for those in the US? I don't know - give humans too much time, and suddenly you have exponential growth in drug/alcohol/television addiction. Not exactly a positive outcome.

      Read Joe Haldeman's The Forever Peace - follows along the lines of the rich, technology-advanced countries beating on the 3rd world.

    3. Re:Robots pave the way for human evolution? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      At what point of ability/intelligence would these robots become slaves rather than simply "tools"? Should we not figure this kind of thing out before hand?

    4. Re:Robots pave the way for human evolution? by Jon+Howard · · Score: 1

      Maybe we can live the unsavory aspects of life vicariously through robots. For example, we could let robots have wars and kill each other--not just on Battlebots, but in Afghanistan and anywhere else the U.S. stages its wars.

      I'm afraid that this is too optimistic. Competition and strife are part of all life. To exemplify this, what would occur if your robot warriors lost and you didn't want to abide by the terms of the winners? Violence is always going to be part of war, alongside politics and propaganda.

      Better yet, employ robots in menial manufacturing jobs so that humans can reach some semblance of equality. Just a thought, but flame away.

      Indeed, this sounds like a very good idea, but without menial jobs, where will people who don't have skills work? There will always be people who, for one reason or another, do not have any skills which transcend the "menial" labors your refer to. Barring that, what about lazy people who don't want to develop skills - do they get a free ride at the cost of resources? Unskilled work is necessary to provide a semblance of equality, otherwise the contrast will become even more pronounced between skilled laborers and the unqualified.

      The best solution is to augment (rather than replace) aspects of life which can be augmented with technology and make progress.

  38. My favorite toy... by warpSpeed · · Score: 2, Interesting


    When I was in 1st grade I loved used to play with my 160 in 1 Electronic Project Kit from Radio Shack! That was a cool toy. I made everything project in it several times over. I remember building the siren and scaring my sister with it. :-)

    I went to find it or something simmilar for my daughters (who are 5 and 6) and could not find it. It was disappointing. The toys (or what passes for them now) require zero creativity to play with. Fortunatly that does not stop my girls from being creative. The general rule of thumb in my house for toys is that they do not require batteries, with a few exceptions.

    We are going to start building model rockets soon!

    ~Sean

    1. Re:My favorite toy... by yndrd · · Score: 1

      Amen to that. I LOVED that 160 in One project set. I ordered one off of eBay and it didn't work, and I was profoundly disappointed. Radio Shack does sell an updated version, but I don't think it is as flexible as the one we had as kids.

      Might have to buy a plain breadboard and experiment with that instead.

    2. Re:My favorite toy... by dakoda · · Score: 1

      160 in 1 and model rockets! sounds like my not-so-distant childhood =). though i had a few of those electrical kits.. one from way back when transistors came in cans.

      it's too bad creative play is looked down upon, or at least not encouraged any more. on the other hand, non-creative play leads to fewer dmca violations...

      have fun with the rockets =)

  39. It's a trick! by global_diffusion · · Score: 1

    Here's the real quote!

    "I want to sell millions of toys, but what I really hope is that a bunch of kids who open them up use the motors and things to build something else ... then I'll have them arrested for violating the DMCA and use their inventions to my own gain! [mad cackle]"

  40. Very robust critters... by Whispers_in_the_dark · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I remember seeing a show on this guy a while back and being pretty impressed with his results. His machines could have their legs bent and broken and still manage to keep moving (helps not to bother with error checking I'm sure).

    I have to wonder what could be accomplished if the whole thing got more hobbyists working on it. After all many of his schematics are on Beam-Online and appear to be reasonable for amateurs to build.

    1. Re:Very robust critters... by FozzTexx · · Score: 1

      I've seen similarly high tech toys. I have some windups that when knocked over their legs keep moving. Amazing! Not to mention some bump and go toys that backup and change directions after running into a wall. And all with just one motor! Will wonders never cease!

  41. Re: Non-Registration Link - useless by JiffyPop · · Score: 1

    How did this get moded up when the link doesn't work!!

    You know there is POST as well as GET for sending information to a server... just cutting and pasting a link has no garauntee of working. Did you leave the "Please save my password" box checked and then tested to see if your URL worked?

  42. Computers can be toys! by psyco484 · · Score: 0

    Building things never really interested me as far as cannabalizing the few toys I did have. However, I do remember my old 286 that I toyed around with. No, I wasn't the average kid who just wanted to play games on it, I kind of just messed around with it until it worked right. Maybe that's why I'm an EE/CS major...who knows.

  43. Tilden obvious has not talked to: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The corporate lawyers for the toy makers.

    I can imagine lawsuits for encouraging
    children to take the assembled unit apart.

  44. Re: Non-Registration Link - useless by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    What the fuck are you talking about? The link works, moron.

  45. Re: Non-Registration Link - useless by JiffyPop · · Score: 1

    Not for me.

  46. Aging society by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I thought we were living in an aging society.

    How about some household robots, to take the
    task of cleaning up behind me out of my
    hands ?

    Toon Moene.

  47. Why register? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ....because I get redirected to the nytimes registration page when I click on your archive.nytimes.com link.

  48. All Life Is Analog? by Louis+Savain · · Score: 2

    What is analog about a spike fired by a neuron, pray tell? What is analog about DNA? Tilden should stick to his toys, IMO, because that's all he'll ever build. In the meantime, real AI researchers will conduct experiments in temporal spiking networks.

    1. Re:All Life Is Analog? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It is *ALL* analog. You are using digital theories to get a model of what is happening.

  49. christ, you fuckers are such broken records. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    stop preaching to the choir, dumbass.

  50. yeah, fuck supporting a decent news organization. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    free reg is fucking such a trial. everything should be free.

    assholes.

  51. Batteries forbidden here by Rommel · · Score: 1

    Good for you! I have a nine month old son, and our general rule is that toys requiring batteries are not welcome. This isn't because we're afraid of technology or anything of that sort.

    The problem I have with so many of the battery-powered toys is that they try to channel the play into paths intended by the designer of the toy.

    The toys without batteries are better at evoking play.

  52. AI is a dead end by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It seems to me that AI is a dead end with current techniques. Where is the progress on this front?

    Maybe a different approach is required?

  53. Artificial Intelligence by mstrjon32 · · Score: 1

    I wouldn't concern yourself with intelligent robots taking over the world. It is not possible for anything to create something that is smarter than itself. While possible to come very close, even as close as 99.9% of the intelligence of its creator, 100% can never be achieved. It is for this reason, that it is not possible for "smart" robots to outsmart humans.

    1. Re:Artificial Intelligence by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's a bold claim. So I guess evolution is out, huh? How about CAD workstations using old processors to design new ones? Can't be done.
      How about dumb people who give birth to geniuses? Never happens.
      Sheesh.

    2. Re:Artificial Intelligence by Ionized · · Score: 1

      oh? define "smart." there are computer programmers who can code a chess program that will beat its own programmer 100 times out of 100. now what does that say about your claim?

    3. Re:Artificial Intelligence by mstrjon32 · · Score: 1

      The old workstation didn't design the new one, the user of the workstation did, what you are saying makes no sense. Furthermore, a workstation isn't an artificial intelligence.

    4. Re:Artificial Intelligence by Mr.+Slippery · · Score: 1
      I wouldn't concern yourself with intelligent robots taking over the world. It is not possible for anything to create something that is smarter than itself.

      While your assertation itself is questionable, we don't have to create them, as such; simply set up an environment in which they can evolve.

      We don't have to know how to build something that's smart, we need only to be able to judge if it is smart. Introduce mutation, do selection, bam!

      --
      Tom Swiss | the infamous tms | my blog
      You cannot wash away blood with blood
    5. Re:Artificial Intelligence by mstrjon32 · · Score: 1

      The computer can calculate every possible routine faster than its programmer can. Given sufficent time, the programmer would still be able to beat the computer. Also, you must realize that every design team member of the program would need to work together to play against the computer. A 1 on 1 match would not be fair. If thats too far out to understand, then think of it as the programmer sitting down against the computer, only the programmer had all the source code for the program in front of him. He could follow through his code and essentially it would be the same two programs running against each other. Now, lets say while doing so the programmer finds a more efficent, better way to execute the code, he can make that change and then play the new program against the old one. However, the program itself is not capable of improving on its own code.

    6. Re:Artificial Intelligence by mstrjon32 · · Score: 1

      An evolving lifeform is a different ballgame. I am talking in the range of programmed artificial intelligence. If we made a monkey-bird or something by combining DNA, yes, it is technically a human creation, but it is life and can evolve naturally. The evolved being would not be a product of the parents intelligence.

    7. Re:Artificial Intelligence by Ionized · · Score: 1

      wrong. self modifying code is old hat.

      as for programs being smarter than their writer, you've cleverly sidestepped the issue by claiming several people would write it.

      well, thats fine and all, so why couldn't a group of people develop AI that was smarter than any one individual in the group? i think you're being very close-minded about this.

    8. Re:Artificial Intelligence by Mr.+Slippery · · Score: 1
      An evolving lifeform is a different ballgame. I am talking in the range of programmed artificial intelligence.

      They are not exclusive. Read up on genetic algorithms. Read Rudy Rucker's Hardware for a science-fiction, but possible, approach.

      --
      Tom Swiss | the infamous tms | my blog
      You cannot wash away blood with blood
    9. Re:Artificial Intelligence by mstrjon32 · · Score: 1

      well, thats fine and all, so why couldn't a group of people develop AI that was smarter than any one individual in the group? i think you're being very close-minded about this.

      A group of people can develop an AI that is smarter than one individual in the group. The "creator" is then the group of people. The AI can best one member of the group, but not the group working together to best the AI.

      As far as self-modifying code, I believe you are talking about polymorphic viruses and the like. These are not evolving, but rather changing such that a less "intelligent" detector would not recognize it. At heart, it is still the same code, preforming the same task.

      If you are referring to something else I am unaware of, please let me know.

    10. Re:Artificial Intelligence by mstrjon32 · · Score: 1

      I will have to give that one a read. Thanks for the recommendation.

    11. Re:Artificial Intelligence by Ionized · · Score: 1

      while there are many different current projects that would fall under the moniker of self-modifying code (that are not viruses) i think what you are getting at, and what is more relevant to our discussion, can be found here.

      as far as self-modifying code performing the same task but differently, you are basically correct - the most useful application is programs that are written to be self-modifying in order to make themselves more efficient. they do the same basic thing, but can "learn" to do it much faster. as a counterpoint to your original argument, i read a recent article describing a man who wrote what he thought was the most efficient code possible to do a certain task, then ran the (self-modifying) code. after many iterations it was more efficient than what he thought was the most efficient solution - a program being "smarter" than its creator.

      but for true innovation, for AI that can make revolutionary leaps instead of evolutionary ones, we are indeed not there yet. however, researchers are showing progress, and to rule it out is jumping too quickly to conclusions.

    12. Re:Artificial Intelligence by mstrjon32 · · Score: 1

      I suppose I was conclusive with my comments, and it may be possible, although with the current technology and mindset today I belive it is not, to write code that can become smarter than it's creator. However, I would have to see actual results in order to believe this to be true.

      Should that day come, I think I speak on the behalf of many, that will be a very scary day. Few things really hit home and make me uneasy, but the creation of a machine that can improve upon itself in a revolutionary manner as to greaten its own intelligence and logical problem solving ability is certainly one of them.

    13. Re:Artificial Intelligence by maddugan · · Score: 1

      Some scenerios to think about:

      Smartest person alive creates robot with 99.9% intelligence of creator. Said person dies, robot mass-produces. They are now smarter than all existing humans. All your base are belong to us.

      Ten people create robot with 99.9% of the collective intellegence of group. Robot is duplicated ten times. Advantage robots.

      Being smarter doesn't always beat the faster, the bigger, or the armored exoskeletoned

    14. Re:Artificial Intelligence by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      An AI is not a static set of rules that the programmer needs to input before the system is started; it is supposed to be a preferrably simple system that can modify itself and _learns_on_it's_own_.

  54. Will you adopt me? by Unknown+Poltroon · · Score: 2, Funny

    Please? Im only 29. I can buy my own beer at this age.

    --
    All Troll + "offtopic" mods are meta moderated as "Unfair", because you abused the system.
  55. Can't have Tilden slashdotted with mentioning.... by eoPh · · Score: 1, Informative

    Solarbotics!

    couldn't really have an article about Tilden without mentioning another REALLY DAMN COOL provider of nifty little robotics, that are based on the same concept (B.E.A.M) that Mark Tilden is famous for.

    not for the lazy, though. most products are in kit form, which means you have to build it yourself. On the plus side, you get to build it yourself! :]

  56. Which is the rip-off? by Monte · · Score: 1

    Of course, Robot Wars was adapted from robot combat sports that had already been going on in the US without TV broatcasts, but everything comes from something.

    There are a good number of people who believe it wasn't so much "adapted" as shamelessly stolen.

    Seeing as Battlebots was created by a couple of early US Robot Wars competitors, I think it's much closer to the roots. However, the English show has much charm, what with it's "house robots".

  57. Rod Brook's Class by srichman · · Score: 2

    Little "analog" sensor-actuator robots... a little too reminiscent of the homework I should be working on...

  58. Re:Rod Brooks' Class by Animats · · Score: 3, Interesting
    The real originator of behavior-based robots was Grey Walter, who built two "turtles", Elmer and Elsie, in 1948-1949. Six more were built in the early 1950s. Read through those pages. What those machines did looks quite good compared to the behavior-based robot enthusiasts of the 1990s. They even recharged themselves.

    There's a Lego Mindstorms implementation of Walter's turtles.

    People tend to read more into the behavior of purely reactive behavior-based robots than is actually there. That's why they get good press and make fun toys, but don't do anything useful.

  59. Re: Non-Registration Link - useless by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Perhaps you should upgrade to a browser that supports links, you fucking moron.

  60. ELMER FUDD ALERT! by Thing+1 · · Score: 1
    Of course, it may be that man, in his currwenty state, is not capable...

    Elmer, is that you? How's the wabbit?

    --
    I feel fantastic, and I'm still alive.
  61. Nothing useful? by CaptainEcchi · · Score: 1
    Fun toys, but nothing useful? I beg to differ. Almost all the work of robotics today (including the work of Rodney Brooks) is reactive and behavior-based. (Unless, of course, you want to argue that this isn't interesting work, but I'm not sure this was your argument).

    True, Braitenberg (in the 80s) did just revive the reactive, behavior-based architecture from Grey Walter, but it still started robotics going in much more productive direction than it had been. Would you prefer the traditional deliberative, abstract-model forming robot design that was forwarded by Minsky in the 50s? These sort of robots would map the world and then move accordingly, but it took them *forever* to do so. Nowadays, this model is coming back in some forms as our technology finally allows for representations of the world to be created with some speed, but it is usually involved in hybrid systems, where it works alongside reactive systems and acts as the final arbiter of decision.

    The advantage of the reactive, behavior-based design (together with subsumption architecture, in which higher-priority behaviors suppress lower priority behaviors; also yet another element which puts Brooks' and others' robots a step above Tilden's in complexity) is that it can react quickly to the world, which a representation-forming system can't. In the end, it doesn't matter if your robot can make a really great map of the world or play a brilliant game of chess, if it can't keep itself from running into walls.

    On another note, I like Tilden's 'bots, but I regret that (as far as I know), you can't put them together yourself (although you can certainly tinker with them afterwards). The Tutebot, a tutorial, analog robot designed by the authors of the book Mobile Robots, is much more fun. You can get yourself a copy of Mobile Robots, get the plans for Tutebot, and build it yourself, all the while leading yourself down the path to more complicated robotics work.

    1. Re:Nothing useful? by Animats · · Score: 2
      Almost all the work of robotics today (including the work of Rodney Brooks) is reactive and behavior-based.

      Not really. Most of the good robotics work today involves some mapmaking and planning. Mapping and planning are less rigid than they used to be. But they're definitely in there. See, for example, the CMU automated forklift project.

      Would you prefer the traditional deliberative, abstract-model forming robot design that was forwarded by Minsky in the 50s? These sort of robots would map the world and then move accordingly, but it took them *forever* to do so.
      Yes, mapping and vision processing were really slow on an 0.3 MIPS DEC-10. Back then, it took minutes. When I did sonar mapping on a 6 MIPS PC/AT, it took seconds. Now that we have a few more orders of magnitude in compute power, that's not a problem.

  62. Same situation happened to me once by Navius+Eurisko · · Score: 1

    My roommate's girlfriend invited her friends over for some drinking and beirut. I just completed building a robot I picked up at robotstore.com and was letting it run around my room by itself (the potientometer was cranked all the way up so it was flying.) Anyways, I went out into the living room to drink when the little robot rolled into the room. One of the girls litterally freaked out. We all had to convince her that the robot couldn't hurt her! I still go lol over it to this day.

  63. The best gift I was ever given by PopStar · · Score: 1
    When I was about 5, my grandmother gave me a small set of screw drivers. It turned out to be the best gift I was ever given.

    Once my parents explained the concept of how the tools fundamentally worked, I began taking apart just about everything in the house. I disassembled my Speak and Spell, and reassembled it inside of a "robot" I made out of cardboard boxes. I took apart an old answering machine. I took apart an old easy chair. Pretty much anything that was held together by phillips or slotted screws, I attempted to take apart.

    When I was a bit older, my father gave me an old IBM PC-AT to take apart. I disassembled and reassembled that thing probably a thousand times. Eventually, I took it apart, and reassembled it inside of He-Man's Castle Greyskull ... which I still have to this day.

    Every time I tinker inside of my computer, hack at my kernel, build something in my woodshop, or work on my pickup, I owe all of it to those silly toy screwdrivers.

  64. Life is DIGITAL folks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    Most organisms don't even have nerves.

    ALL organisms have genes, and genes are digital. That's why life works. Read "The Origin of Species" (a great book by the way) and you can see how Darwin struggled with the idea of primitive characteristics that pop up in the purest breeds - Mendel explained it with the idea of dominant and recessive genes. The idea is digital, and there is no analogue explanation for the phenomenon.

    Of course nowadays we have a chemical explanation - DNA is digital technology. If it weren't it wouldn't work.

  65. Analog vs. Digital by 0x20 · · Score: 1

    While I agree that analog systems are a more convenient and accurate way to model very simple biological systems, I think the idea behind using digital systems in robotics is to be able to (roughly) model much more complex analog systems inside the chip, without the need to physically re-plan and re-wire the whole device to say, add a new sensor.

    While it's amusing to see an analog bug bouncing around because it seems really lifelike, the idea doesn't translate much past bugs. Analog robots and computers quickly hit a "wall" beyond which any attempt to expand the system either reduces its speed or increases its complexity beyond a practical point.

  66. Another question: Is the Universe Digital? by AbsoluteRelativity · · Score: 1

    We call the universe analog because we dont know its limits, but at the same time we give the universe limits.

    If the universe was analog then motion would be hard to explain. Like for example, if you wanted to go from point A to point B you would first have to move half way, and if you wanted to go half way you would have to go a quarter of the way, and if you wanted to go a quarter of the way you would have to go 1/8th of the way, and on and on. If the universe were descreet you could simply increment to the next position there wouldnt be infinite subdivisions. The same could be applied to speed and acceleration, acceleration can be viewed as a vector which alters speed, and acceleration itself changes so it itself can have a change vector, so you get acceleration of acceleration of acceleration and on and on. But its possible for this to be represented in a mathmatical analog, such as in fractals, fractals are sort of like feedback (when you place a camera in front of a TV displaying whats on the camera, you see feedback), feedback can go on to infinite. But that still does not dispute a digital universe because fractals of course can be sculted in digital forms to fit our perceptions and fool us into believing an infinite universe, just as we had for along time been fooled into believing in infinite speed, when the universe really has a speed limit of light, which is similar to the concepts of digital floating point numbers, where larger numbers lose their lower/minor precision, but keep their higher/major precision.

    --
    disclaimer : My views do not represent those of every one else in slashdot.
    1. Re:Another question: Is the Universe Digital? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      holy crap, this has to be one of the stupidest posts to ever grace slashdot.

      are you saying that physics is entirely wrong? that our concepts of accelerations relationship with velocity is totally flawed? that's quite a claim. your argument about the 1/2 way paradox is retarded. If your goal was to travel half way to a destination, then repeat that process, then yes, theoretically you'd never reach the destination, you'd only get half-way there. But when I'm going from point A to point B, i am not limited to only going half way, then half way from there and so on. I have a size. If I were one dimensional, then yes, that'd be a problem. But there is no way that I can be limited to only travelling one micrometer, then half a micrometer, and oh shit, now i'm in an infinite loop. Because of my size, i'm am limited to only being able to travel in discrete units, not because motion isn't an analog concept.

      your arguments are all about sampling. yes, you can sample an analog signal, and explain pretty much all of the properties of the signal with those samples, but it doesn't mean that the signal wasn't analog in the first place. that argument makes no sense.

      your claim about losing precision pretty much refutes your own argument. if I'm accelerating from 0 to 60 kilometers per hour in my car, I am not moving from 0 to 0.1 to 0.2 to 0.3 etc... it's an analog process. There's no way that you could tell me precisely how fast I'm moving, because it's analog. You could say I'm moving at 30.0 kilometers per hour, and that may be somewhat accurate, but then I could say no, the value 30.002 would be more accurate, and I'd be correct.

      I'm just babbling now, but you hopefully get my point. you should think before you post...or at least not make up a bunch of nonesensical shit and act like you actually have a clue what you're talking about...stop spreading stupidity, someone might read your post and think you know what you're talking about...

    2. Re:Another question: Is the Universe Digital? by AbsoluteRelativity · · Score: 1

      I am not saying physics is entirely wrong, if you know anything about physics, you know that it is only based upon on our limited view of the universe. Just as Einstien had proven, things are not always as they appear, while Newtonian laws seemed to be right from our limited perspective back then, new devices allow us to see things that we could not see before, and discover things about the universe that we had previously not known, these discovers cause major changes in science and the view of the universe, just as Einstien was to Newton.

      I said to go from point A to point B, you have to go half way before you go to B... to go half way to B, you have to go a quarter of the way... before you go a quarter of the way, you have to go 1/8th of the way... You CAN'T skip those steps and magicly appear at point B... if everything is infinitely subdividable, then nothing would move (you would keep going from 1/8th, 1/16th, and on and on), if everything were descreet then moving would not be a problem. And BTW this is not something I came up with...

      http://turnbull.mcs.st-and.ac.uk/~history/Mathem at icians/Zeno_of_Elea.html

      > theoretically you'd never reach the destination, you'd only get half-way there.

      Theoretically you wouldnt even move (again to go half way you would first have to make it 1/4th, before that 1/8th and on and on to 1/infinity).

      > Because of my size, i'm am limited to only being able to travel in discrete units, not because motion isn't an analog concept.

      Your not thinking it through. Size is not relevant, that is like saying a football stadium can not move a nanometer, that because of its size it can only move in meters. There is no such limitation that I am aware of, and a football stadium and a foot ball are capable of moving in small units. I dont think we can see objects moving in descreet units, the resolution may be to small for us to measure, most of these things may be to small for us to measure properly and even in the quantum level things are described as popping in and out and jumping around.

      > your arguments are all about sampling. yes, you can sample an analog signal, and explain pretty much all of the properties of the signal with those samples, but it doesn't mean that the signal wasn't analog in the first place. that argument makes no sense.

      It doesnt make sense because you dont understand it. I know about DACs (Digital to Analog Conversion), think of it as converting from a really high resolution signal to a really low resolution signal. Both are descreet, but one is simply higher resolution, so high in fact that it may be impossible for a DAC to capture it all accurately.

      > your claim about losing precision pretty much refutes your own argument.

      No, you simply didnt understand what I meant. A floating point number loses its lower precisions when dealing with very large numbers. So if an rocket were moving almost the speed of light, it is Einsteins theory of relativity which says that someone in that rocket will appear to move in slow motion (thus preventing speeds greater then the speed of light). What I was saying is that this could be the result of the loss of precision, if a computer is unable to get that kind of precision for example a solution would be to cause them to move slower.

      > if I'm accelerating from 0 to 60 kilometers per hour in my car, I am not moving from 0 to 0.1 to 0.2 to 0.3 etc... it's an analog process.

      You dont even know what an "analog process" is, all that really means is "I dont really know what is happening, becaue things are to complex to track". I'm not claiming that it is an digital process, I'm just saying its possible that it could be a digital processes. It could be at such a high resolution that it allows for more complex sequencies then something as linear as you suggest.

      > There's no way that you could tell me precisely how fast I'm moving, because it's analog.

      Again the word "analog" is just being used to replace the word "uncertain" or "unknown". Analog could turn out to mean really high resolution.

      > . you should think before you post...

      I've thought about this for a long time (this isnt a spur of the moment comment), only posted it because it was close to the topic. What I am not sure about though is why your such an asshole.

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      disclaimer : My views do not represent those of every one else in slashdot.