Slashdot Mirror
Microsoft Seeks Dismissal with 9 Dissenting States
zalix writes "Microsoft is seeking a dismissal of the
case brought by the 9 States who have refused to settle. In court papers filed
yesterday Microsoft claims that the states have no contitutional authority to
bring such action stating that "Permitting the nonsettling states to seek
sweeping, nationwide relief under the federal antitrust laws and would raise serious
constitutional questions," They go on to state "This would destroy Windows desktop operating systems as a stable and consistent development platform,"."
They've committed crimes...
They've been caught...
They've been charged...
They've been tried...
They've been found guilty. Twice.
Someone hang them. Please!
"To make a mistake is only human; to persist in a mistake is idiotic." Cicero
...that Microsoft releases these statements just to watch the inevitable flames on message boards like this one.
"This would destroy Windows desktop operating systems as a stable and consistent development platform,"
Can you moderate a press release as -1 Troll?
It hurts when I pee.
The states "seek to establish themselves as national antitrust policymakers" in a case where they haven't shown any "state-specific injury," the company argued in part.
How can it possibly be that the states have shown no specific cases in their area? I'm sure there are many constituents in this state, or companies, that can demonstrate being harmed by some area of Microsoft actions. The states didn't just all jump on the bandwagon against Microsoft without having any cases themselves, they simply pooled their cases together. And now that the overall case seems to not be happening, they're seeking once again to address their grievances individually by state, b/c they're not happy with the settlement.
I don't see how that's unconstitutional - since the main trial already agreed that MS had a monopoly in the OS market, the states aren't seeking to make federal decisions, only to use them to help their case.
The article is a little sparse, but I don't see this being a solid argument at this point.
Please subscribe to see the more insightful version of th
In the interest of conservation of space, will anyone who simply wishes to make the obvious sarcastic joke about "windows as a stable and consistent development platform" quote please do so as a reply to this comment you are now reading, so the rest of us can just scroll quickly past and ignore the lot of these comments in one block?
Thank you.
It was also reported that a federal judge overseeing the Microsoft antitrust case has dismissed a suit brought by a nonprofit antitrust group claiming that the parties didn't fully disclose communication related to the proposed settlement. See this link
And this...... Microsoft has filed a new motion in U.S. District Court to block media access to four depositions that have already been taken in its antitrust case, as well as one that has not yet occurred. See this link
And finally, a great place to get all the goods on the case... visit here!!! Good luck!
Okay, we'll take relief in just our 9 states then. The rest of you can suffer.
But I think it is an invalid point, it isn't the Justice department which would be applying the law, it would be the Federal court, which certainly has jurisdiction over the entire country.
As an officer of the court aren't the lawyers supposed to try to tell the truth?
Fight Spammers!
The states' call for an open-source version of Internet Explorer would destroy "any incentive for Microsoft to invest in the creation of such new versions," Microsoft said.
But they don't sell Internet Explorer. It's not a product. They don't make any money from it. Is Microsoft hereby admitting that IE is source code controlled as a way of manipulating Web standards in order to control the Internet? That they develop the product for free in order to drive competitors underwater?
Very interesting quote.
"The problem with the French is that they don't have a word for 'entrepeneur'." -George W. Bush
Microsoft today re-released it's revised version of the second draft of it's DOJ AgreementXP 7.0.9b package.
Under this agreement the states agree to re ammend an future litigation to include future contestment to future settlements of future points of litigation involving but not precluding any agreement in the first place.
In the event of any preclusion of an agreement to be acceptable to both or any parties invlolved are hereby resolved to the point of future litigation pending a court order with at least a 365 day warning pending aprroval of a senate oversight committee.
If these agreements are not met then proceed to Go and do NOT collect $200/month.
Only a federal court can make sweeping antitrust rulings. The federal courts have already spoken, so how can a few states go against that ruling?
I have proof! Just click this link for some hard evidence!
"First lesson," Jon said. "Stick them with the pointy end."
They go on to state "This would destroy Windows desktop operating systems as a stable and consistent development platform"
For the first time in my life, I want to give money to lawyers. Can I start paying California taxes if I'm a Canadian?
--------
Bleah! Heh heh heh... BLEAH BLEAH!!! Ha ha ha ha...
Since it's an interstate business, it can't be forced to treat those nine states differently.
Best Slashdot Co
Microsoft and the government have released a new, revised settlement agreement, according to this article at the Washington Post. Changes include removing a provision that apparently would have let Microsoft use hardware patents without compensating the owners (?!), more requirements for API disclosure by MS, and a broadening of the language of the document to make it harder for MS to weasel out of things.
Anyway, thought it might be an interesting read to go along with this story.
This tagline is umop apisdn.
So what they're saying here is that when free software succeeds, they can't compete. If ever one questioned whether Microsoft feared free software, this should quell such doubts. They know that as soon as the source is available better products can and probably will be made. And apparently that's competition they can't handle. (Yes, this is toll-like, but I kind of like being a troll sometimes. My next point is hopefully better.
Also, their objection seems ill-founded to me. If they wish to complain that these states shouldn't be able to bring an anti-trust action that has national implications, I'd want to know if they'd objected to the original 18 states being included. That is, wanting to eliminate states from the equation seems to say that the DoJ is the only body that should be taking Microsoft to court, in which case they should have objected to the original 18 states. Taking issue with the inclusion of any states at this point seems like wanting to change the rules you had tacitly accepted after the game has been played for several years.
Curmudgeon Gamer: Not happy
Since Microsoft's actions do, indeed, affect consumers in every single one of the 50 states, I'd say the non-settling states have a very valid case. One could argue that any potential remedies would have to be limited to the states in question, but we all know that isn't very feasible. ("You mean I have to go to another state to get a computer without Windows preinstalled?!")
And don't forget, the judge hasn't approved the Justice Department's settlement yet. She can still overrule it as being insufficient to remedy Microsoft's conduct, and I hope she does exactly that.
If only Judge Jackson had been a bit more polite with his ruling, we might have a couple Baby Bills instead of having to go through all this...
I've read a few books on MS such as "Breaking Windows" and "Hard Drive" and I would have to say that both books showcase some employees who honestly believe their own company's bullshit or at least appear to on paper. One of the worst mistakes you can make in business is believing your own PR let alone anybody else's.
Microsoft claims that the states have no contitutional authority to bring such action stating that "Permitting the nonsettling states to seek sweeping, nationwide relief under the federal antitrust laws and would raise serious constitutional questions."
To which the response should be:
"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people."
This should take all of five minutes to resolve.
The hilarious and refreshing adbusters site claims that back in the day when a corporation exceeded its powers or ceased to serve the public interest, its charter was revoked and its very right to exist was nullified
Their main point is that corporate personhood--which grants corporations some rights as individuals--has effectively eroded the rights of real individuals. Since corporations have vast resources to vigorously defend their rights, they exercise more rights than you and I.
I think that we shouldn't fixate on Microsoft; there is a wider problem of corporations becoming too powerful in general. Microsoft is a symptom.
My handle breaks slashcode, what does your handle do?
Try to find VMS admins out there. UNIX admins aren't that hard to find (a good one is though), and Microsoft MCSE's are a dime a dozen.
I never understand the hiring of someone just because they are an MCSE? Some of these people are straight from the burger fryers at McDonalds....
I want my rights back. I was actually using them when our government stole them after 9/11.
That's standard procedure, really. I don't see where it's big news. Big news would be if the dismissal was actually granted.
"This would destroy Windows desktop operating systems as a stable and consistent development platform"
Wouldn't that require it be a stable platform to begin with? It's like me saying, "Eating this bag of jelly beans will destroy my ability to run the Boston Marathon in 10 minutes, 32 seconds."
"Live Free or Die." Don't like it? Then keep out of the USA
Is this really newsworthy?
The obvious legal tactic when facing any lawsuit is to file a dismissal motion. And, in said dismissal motion, they come up with (make up) any arguments in support of the motion that they can. And said motions are generally denied, and the legal proceedings continue on.
BTW, IANAL
Think For Yourself. Question Authority.
Does anyone else think that having IE "open-sourced" might actually be a good thing?
Not because it would hurt Microsoft, but rather so that the open-source community would be able to take hold of it and make it a better program.
You have to admit that IE is much faster than most of the competing browsers, and that it's all around not a half-bad browser.
If the open-source community could take this browser and turn it into something better, that would be awesome.
-kwishot
SyRuP Fudge. This is also how the MS senior managment team views the proposal.
-- Nobody should take away Microsoft's freedom to innovate, particularly since they haven't used it yet
How is it fair that the government can tell a company what to do with their intellectual property? That sounds like totalitarianism, or communism to me. How can they demand that Microsoft release the IE source code, et. al.? Just think about this for a second. What if they did the exact opposite? What if they tried to force Linux and all the GNU tools to be closed source? What would you think about that? Not like it much? Uh huh. If they forced the code open for IE, it would inevitably lead to intellectual theft of Microsoft... makes you wonder how little time it would take for that code to "somehow accidentally" end up on the desks of Mozilla/Netscrape developers? That's not fair play to me. Sounds more like horseshit.
"Actually holding us repsonsible for the illegal actions that we have been found guilty of should be unconstitutional. You should be happy just to slap us on the wrist like all those other times we got caught breaking the law. Now go away and let us get back to the business of dominating the world."
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
As much as I hate to admit it, Microsoft is right about this one. I was talking to a friend who is a lawyer, and he said this could technically fall under the clause that states cannot make rules that apply to other states. It's similar to the laws that say if I'm married in one state, I'm married in another. They have to recognize that. Well, it's unconstitutional for Maryland to make laws that would affect Georgia.
This is just what I was told, so I'm going by that. I'm not an expert on the Constitution so I don't know.
They never change their tune, do they? The "stable and consistent" quote is specifically in response to the requirement to strip middleware from the OS. Yes, yes, we've heard it before; there is no OS, it's all completely integrated, yadda yadda. I'm sure many of us are familiar with just how "unstable" (or otherwise) an OS without applications can be. That aside, it seems to me that if distros based on a stripped down OS and middleware from third parties really were to suck as much as Microsoft claims they would, then the principles of the free market would protect their fully featured version. Remember, nobody's asking them to stop selling their "all microsoft, all the way" distro, just to provide a stripped down version as well.
Sure, if they want to give up and let someone else take over the browser market, they can stop investing in IE. They're saying that if they can't play by their rules, they won't play at all. You can sort of see their point: having their IP forcibly open sourced isn't really fair. Well guess what: that's the idea. This is a punishment. Microsoft have been found guilty of using Internet Explorer as a weapon to destroy Netscape. The penalty is to disarm that weapon by making it available to everybody. It's not meant to be fair, it's meant to be a commensurate penalty. I also note that it's not a case of Microsoft giving the source away, just making it available for scrutiny and licensing. Heck, maybe nobody will want to license it after they've seen it.
In case anyone's interested, the actual States' proposal is here. It makes for pretty interesting reading, mandating the distribution of a Java VM with Windows, auctioning the rights to develop Office for other operating systems to a third party, and actually complying with standards, rather than just claiming that being 95% compliant is close enough (e.g. J++ versus Java).
Before you start reading it, remember one thing: Microsoft are guilty. They are convicted monopolists, and they have repeatedly ignored previous behaviour orders. This remedy is meant to punish them, and to help their competitors at their expense. They did the crime, now they have to do the time.
If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
If their stable development platform would be destroyed....then it would be the same as they have destroyed countless other stable development platforms/programs with their monopolistic practices.
Justice isn't about revenge and I realize that. But you can't destroy market segment after market segment and when we finally want to penalize you for it, you whine and say you'll lose. Yeah, that's the whole point. What do they want, a slap on the wrists again? It sounds like it to me. The only constitutional issue I see is if we do nothing. Then we would be allowing an abusive monopoly to become acceptable and a part of our life. And Microsoft (avoid conspiracy theories, this is a simple fact) wants to become of our daily life as much as possible. PCs, internet, cell phones, TV, gaming systems, you name it, Microsoft wants a piece of it. They want to become one of those companies like a power or utility company - completely integrated and absolutely necessary in our life. It's not just horizontal and vertial integration of markets MS is after, but rather, integration of everything. (Making the Bill Gates Borg icon all the more appropriate, I think.) If we let them continue down this course it would be unhealthy for the american (and international) economy. No one company should be so big and have control over as many markets as MS has and wants in the future. I'm not some conspiracy freak or rabid MS-hater, these are simple facts.
due to some happenings in the States during the sixties, a hanging is a racial statement... even if it has nothing to do with ethnicity. Hell, you can't even say lynch without someone cocking an eyebrow and thinking you're in the KKK. Sad.
"This would destroy Windows desktop operating systems as a stable and consistent development platform,"
I'm so scared. I'm going to have nightmares now...
Anyone who posts about bad moderation are themselves off-topic and should be moderated accordingly.
***
Mundie said Microsoft is aware of the power of licensing pacts, but it is treading lightly for now. "If you stand in our shoes, we get enough flak just trying to get people to register their software," he said.
***
Is that so... Well, maybe people would register their software if they had some assurance that the info would only be used to send patches out. Some of the junk mail MS has sent me is just incredible. I'd bet they're selling the info too.
If you recall, the only reason that there is the idea of "intellectual property" is because the government created this legal fiction for purposes of public good. Very similar to the existence of a corporation, actually.
You see, the government grants the special status of a corporation, and the special status of copyright. Given that those are both (useful) legal fictions, it is not unreasonable that the government can take them away or control them when these government created and granted legal fictions get abused.
Noone would stomach the government telling someone that they're not allowed to distribute the source code to their own program. What a person does is up to them (subject to constrains of law at least theoretically designed to keep people from infringing on each others' rights). A person as such has (inalienable) rights, including those of property and freedom of speech. However, a corporation doesn't even exist until the government creates it, and copyright does not exist on its own without the government creating it. Seeing as how both are their creations, is it not unreasonable that the government can direct the uses of its creation to prevent their abuses?
They laughed at Einstein. They laughed at the Wright Brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown. -- C. Sagan
----- 8 ---- 8 ----
:)
"This would destroy Windows desktop operating systems as a stable and consistent development platform."
Insert joke here.
----- 8 ---- 8 ----
why? it's not like it can get much better than what they're saying themselves
//rdj
No one can understand the truth until he drinks of coffee's frothy goodness.
--Sheikh Abd-Al-Kadir, 1587
Reading this article (and others), I find that M$'s repeated and only justification of their business practices is that changing them now would "undermine its Windows operating system" (from the article).
Which would be a bad thing because?
The question you have to ask you're self is where is a company making there money , that is there product ,not neccesarily what they give away for free. A company can spend alot of time developing something ,(say a an audio codex), and then give away that codex then sell hardware/special software to stream it /some other thing to take advantadge of it in some way.The point is that 90 percent of the work may go into the codex which is given away freely and only ten percent into the thing which makes the money.
.
,'company's products',are the things which make it capital or profit, all other things which the company gives away merly assist this process and in my opinion ie is more of a tool than a product, and it was produced with this aim in mind .
However according to www.dictionary.com i.e is a product.
"\Prod"uct\, n. [L. productus, p. pr. of producere. See Produce.] 1. Anything that is produced, whether as the result of generation, growth, labor, or thought, or by the operation of involuntary causes; as, the products of the season, or of the farm; the products of manufactures; the products of the brain."
It is the purpose of Ie that is called in to question by microsofts comment,"The states' call for an open-source version of Internet Explorer would destroy "any incentive for Microsoft to invest in the creation of such new versions,"",It is a product not intended to make money but to hold other browsers at bay, it is a tool of control for microsoft, if it were open source it would lose value as a tool of control
In my mind a
_________________________________________________
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Comment removed based on user account deletion
I guess what Microsoft is really saying is that they don't want to have to make 50 different versions of Windows for sale in each state, and it is unconstitutional to require them too. However, there is a great counter example to this, which is auto manufacturers. They have to make modifications for certain states (CA), but it is legal to move a car from one state to another (used cars or when you move, etc). So maybe Microsoft will be forced to create certain versions for certain states. Of coruse they will complain how this will dirve them into bankrupcy or something. But if a car maker can modify an assembly line with all sorts of parts and expenses to deal with, then Microsoft can cetainly change software, which should be easier than changing around a factory.
Quite frankly at this point, who cares?
You yankees love to linger court crap. Look at OJ and now Yeates [sp?]
I know that our court system is convoluted, but it makes more sense if you understand the reasons for it. Our system is based on the fact that 1)Everyone has the right to representation, and 2)Even criminals have protection under the law, hence laws concerning "double jeopardy" and self incrimination.
Unfortunately, it has evolved into the bloated system you see that basicly comes down to who has the better lawyer.
Every now and then, I find myself agreeing with Shakespear, where the first thing you do is kill all the lawyers. I have to remind myself how dangerous that is. With no one as an advocate for the accused, its a very short step to "guilty until proven innocent"
Good or bad, its that way for a reason. I haven't seen anything better come along.
Just a thought
"...At the end of the day"..."when everyone goes home, you're stuck with yourself." RIP Layne Staley
I found a rope that would work. It's of suitable size and strength. Unfortunately it's wrapped around a music CD case and figure out how it was wrapped around the jewl case, unwrap it, and use it for another purpose would violate the DMCA and the RIAA would crawl up my crack. Hope they like the smell.
So what they're saying here is that when free software succeeds, they can't compete.
IE is free software. Just ask Netscape.
If ever one questioned whether Microsoft feared free software, this should quell such doubts. They know that as soon as the source is available better products can and probably will be made. And apparently that's competition they can't handle.
No, what they are saying is that they paid for the development of IE and don't want to be forced to give away their intellectual property. They don't want there to be a Linux version because the availability of IE in Windows gives them a market advantage over Linux. Say what you want about IE, but there are many sites, including e-commerce, that don't work correctly under other browsers. I don't care why. It's simply true. I run Opera and have to switch to IE occasionally for that reason. My friends who run Mozilla and Netscape report the same thing.
You need to look past your "open source rulez!" tattoo and think like a business person. Microsoft does not want to invest man-years in a wildly popular software product and then give the source away. That's not surprising, hard to understand, or indicative that they feel technologically inferior to the herd of cats that is the open source movement.
Now, in light of the verdict, the question must be asked if this is a fair remedy. I believe that it is. But it's not enough. I think that all Microsoft data file formats need to be open-source and that any change to a file format must be made public at least six months prior to release of a product (e.g., Office) that uses said format.
P.S. I have 50 Karma points so I don't have to be nice for a while. Mod this down as flamebait or troll if you wish.
Experts are once again issuing a warning the newly released MS SettlemeNT contains a security flaw which could allow malicious coders to take over your Intellectual Property, delete files on your computer and gain control of your finances. MS denies these allegations though insiders say Microsoft is working on a patch. Back to you Neil.
Vintage computer games and RPG books available. Email me if you're interested.
I read somewhere about this that MS might have a case, but it's a slim chance.
The essence of what the legal expert was saying was that the case was filed jointly by the states and the feds, or some such thing--not just by the feds--and so it's within reasonable limits for the states to ask for settlements separately from the feds. Basically, it had something to do with the way the case was filed to begin with.
In any event, as the legal expert went on, because of the way the case was filed, MS should have protested initially, during the beginning of the trial. The fact that they have waited so long damages their argument--if this is a constitutional problem, they should have addressed it when the case was first brought against them, and argued that the states shouldn't have separate authority as a plaintiff to begin with.
That's my understanding of this issue at this point.
The states are trying to force Microsoft to release Windows without "middleware." That could seriously jeopardize the definition of an OS ... There are thousands of things that can be removed from an OS that can be called "middleware" but they're all important for a viable commercial OS.
What about the bootloader restrictions? BeOS for x86 flopped largely because Microsoft's OEM license agreements prohibited installing a bootloader that could load both M$ and non-M$ operating systems unless the OEM paid for a copy of the retail edition of the OS (at wholesale prices, which are half of MSRP but double OEM) for each computer.
Will I retire or break 10K?
This is the first, of likely many, legal tactics that MS is going to use to prevent the ordered release of the Windows source code. As their argument actually has a minor bit of merit, the courts will have to investigate and argue their position. This means that MicroSoft's lawyers have some time to come up with their next time wasting strategy while they maintain their monopoly. Each time their arguments get shot down, they will come up with another argument which will bog down the entire case again and again until one of the following happens:
- The states capitulate to a not so devastating settlement
- The DOJ screws up and loses one of the arguments
- Microsoft screws up and loses
It's likely that we will not see an end to this case within this decade...
Wherever you go, there I am...
Because I didn't think it was very constitutional when Microsoft robbed an industry of billions of dollars.
I forget - in America, money equals the law. Silly me. Carry on.
inkly
I would be willing to bet that the MS legal team doesn't believe that this motion has a snowball's chance in Bills own bedroom of going anywhere. This is a tactic to generate support among the large PC manufacturers who would have to support 2-3 different version of the same operating system. What they are saying is that it is illegal for one state to set the laws of another state, so if the disenting states win their case, then they will cause MS to make one version of Windows for those states, and one version for the rest of the country. You can imagine the logistical nightmare this would cause at HP, Dell, and Gateway.
MS has admited that they recognized a problem when the rest of the industry didn't step up and defend them in this case. This is their unique way of squeezing that support out of them while still staying firmly in the dominant possition.
Brilliant move if you ask me, good chance it will backfire though, and cause the pc makers to get more vocal about what they would like to see the final settlement look like.
There's plenty of room at the bottom.
It sounds like service pack 2 corrects all the IIS security problems ;-)
Wow. I didn't realize it was either stable or consistent.
AOL IM and Netscape - Delete QuickLaunch, Delete IE toolbar button, delete Favorite, delete Try AOL shortcuts
Real - Unassociate it with all the media types, get rid of "notifications", delete Favorites and QuickLaunch
Clean? When I find a computer with IE on it, have to rebuild the computer with a real operating system. When I don't I leave myself open to Outlook, PNP, IE and other just don't work security risks. Please see ha-ha f for the end result of much bad judgement, that startsy by trusting your clean machine.
When you are angry about many things in the world, it is time for you to re-evaluate your priorities. Wife good, child good, me free, life is AOK.
DMCA, Hollings, Palladium. What might have sounded like paranoia is now common sense.
Since Microsoft has been found guilty and the courts just need to determine a punishment, why does Microsoft have to accept it? Who ever asks the defendent if they accept the term of their punishment? Of course the defendent won't want to accept the terms, but they shouldn't have the option of choosing their punishment, because they are guilty. They aren't higher than the law, and once the prosocution and the judge agree on a punishment, it should then be forced on the defendent.
This whole process of Microsoft having to agree to a settlement is pointless, and a waste of time, and I don't see why they even have to agree to it, it should just be forced on them.
Things you think are in the Constitution, but are not.
Darwin, the kernel, is free. Quartz, the windowing system, is not free. Many of the applications bundled are not free, although there are a lot of free BSD utilities bundled.. as well as some GNU utilties and applications (gcc, gnuchess, amongst others)
Supposedly WindowsXP is themable.
wouldn't windows have to BE stable to destroy it as a stable development platform? I know win 95/nt4.0/98 were never stable. Have yet to try w2k or xp. The only thing consistant is the blue screen or the poorly designed memory management that causes my win 98 box to crash.
Only 'flamers' flame!
I would also add that while I am no friend of MS, and think they should suffer badly for their transgressions, this whole "give us your code" thing going on in the settlement talks strikes me as trophy-hunting.
It somehow seems cheap and beneath us to be running around saying "You were a bad boy, now you need to give us all your code."
Hot Damn! It's the Soggy Bottom Boys!
Microsoft wants the case dismissed.
And in a related story, people in hell want ice water.
It says Lindows to sue Microsoft.
This is the USA. Everyone can sue everyone. Doesn't mean they'll win. MSFT uses lawyers like you or I use pebbles on birds.
--- Will in Seattle - What are you doing to fight the War?
This is not the case of states being able to make rules for toher states. Basicly states have the right to sue, and they did. Now just because the federal government is settling the case that does not mean that all Microsoft liability is gone. The federal government settlement only removes the conflict between the fed government and microsoft. But anybody else that has the right to sue under the law can still do it. If a state sues microsoft that state does not try to impose different rules, any more than if i sue microsoft i will be trying to impose different rules. Eventually a judge will decide the remedy and if needed that judge will combine the cases so the remedy is consistent.
They do have a serious point: as a policy issue, individual states cannot be determining natiional issues, and shouldn't generally have standing to enforce national laws.
However, the actions also violate the laws of the individual states, and they *do* have standing to enforce those.
Additionally, taken to its extreme, microsoft's argument would seriously damage the notion of precedent. The states are suing because their citizens are damaged. They do not find the proposal by other parties to the suit adequate to solve the problem, and like any other plaintiff, can stay out of an inadequate settlement entered by the other plaintiffs. If they *do* prevail in showing a stronger remedy is proper for themselves, then the judge has the power to apply it nationwide.
Microsoft has a point, and a reasonable argument--it's just not as strong as the arguments against it.
hawk, esq.
No, what they are saying is that they paid for the development of IE and don't want to be forced to give away their intellectual property. They don't want there to be a Linux version because the availability of IE in Windows gives them a market advantage over Linux. Say what you want about IE, but there are many sites, including e-commerce, that don't work correctly under other browsers. I don't care why. It's simply true. I run Opera and have to switch to IE occasionally for that reason. My friends who run Mozilla and Netscape report the same thing.
You need to look past your "open source rulez!" tattoo and think like a business person. Microsoft does not want to invest man-years in a wildly popular software product and then give the source away. That's not surprising, hard to understand, or indicative that they feel technologically inferior to the herd of cats that is the open source movement.
But, really, we shouldn't be looking at this situation like "business people." Microsoft has been found guilty of a crime. If I am found guilty of a crime, I don't get very much leeway to protest that the Court's punishment is unfair (setting aside any potential rants about the flaws of such a system of Courts).
I mean, if I speed, I get a ticket... if the Crown Attorney tries to jail me for life, well, I can protest. The Court will (hopefully) note the absurdity of the punishment and fine me, instead. However, in this case, the loss of a monopolist's property (intellectual or not) is quite apropos. Of course it undermines Microsoft's business interest: it's supposed to do just that.
It is not in the public interest to have Microsoft around... We're stuck with them, for the time being, but that's not to say we have to make it easy for them. No, it should be brutally hard.
BRx.
Life after capitalism? The participatory economics project
0xC3
Interesting theory you've got there. I fail to see how there is any plausible justification for giving people the right not to say things that might incriminate themselves. Either you did something wrong or you didn't, and the court's job is to establish which it is as fairly as possible. You've already got innocent until proven guilty (and that's how I'd want it), but then you load the dice completely by letting people keep quiet rather than say something incriminating that might... well... be the truth.
Hey, over here in the UK, if you refuse to give a breath sample when you get busted after a road accident, the court is allowed to read into that that you're being dodgy, and you can be done for it appropriately. What does the US law say on that?
Which in turn comes down to who has the most money, which in turn is why your system is terminally screwed up and a worldwide laughing stock.
The thing I never got is how you can possibly find someone guilty beyond reasonable doubt (is that the legalese you use, too?) if it takes months at a time for each side to present their evidence. Surely, if it takes that long to present evidence, there must be reasonable doubt. Conversely, when you've been found guilty by a court, a higher court, a third high court, and another one after that, how many more appeals do you really need? If you've been found guilty that often, there's not much room for doubt left.
Well, either that or your laws are so absurdly complicated that you can argue irrelevant minutiae ad nauseam at the expense of getting a meaningful or in any way significant result. Personally, I think a system like yours would be improved by limiting the time in court to, say, two weeks of arguments for each side. If you can't make your point convincingly in that time, your point isn't worth making.
If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
Stupid putz!
/. would have been taken down years ago for their tyrannical moderating and lack of free-speech or the promotion of "differing views" concerning Microsoft.
The US Constitution protects us from Tyrannical Governments, not companies.
If your comment was true,
LINUX - "Linus, Now I Understand Xenophobia"
I don't give a rat's behind about "karma" here or anywhere else. Don't like what I have to say here? Deal with it!
I would also add that while I am no friend of MS, and think they should suffer badly for their transgressions, this whole "give us your code" thing going on in the settlement talks strikes me as trophy-hunting.
It's hard to come up with another option to address the wrongs. Microsoft crushed Netscape by bundling IE with the OS while Netscape had been charging for their browser. The average user looks for "a browser", not "a better browser" so Netscape was left out in the cold.
As a result of Microsoft's dominence of the browser market, combined with proprietary extensions (ActiveX, VBscript, etc.), web sites were written to support IE rather than a generic HTTP-compliant browser.
Now Microsoft is using the reliance on IE, and other proprietary products like Office, to keep Linux off of the desktop. Given that the browser was central to the trial, open-sourcing that would help put things back on an even keel.
In the future, I think that the Microsoft should be required to document and release all data storage and transmission standards. If that is not done, this pattern will be repeated over and over.
As I said in the original post:
Now, in light of the verdict, the question must be asked if this is a fair remedy. I believe that it is.
We agree.
Why do people want the source code to Windows?
Of course, it means you can poke around and see how they do things, but since no-one else builds a platform in quite the way Windows is, I don't really see the point. Plus, Microsoft are going to fight long and hard not to open up their code.
So, let them keep it closed.
However I would have thought that forcing Microsoft to open up, document and distribute for free the file formats they use (doc, xls, ppt and so on and so on) for then next, say 25 years, would be far more advantagious to others. In other words, they cannot lock users into their own formats ever again.
After all, once other applications can load and save Microsoft formats as well as Office can then surely then it would allow them to break onto the desktop and so foster proper competition?
Avantslash - View Slashdot cleanly on your mobile phone.
I read sometime ago that Microsoft was considering moving 50 miles up the coast into Canada and complicating the legal picture enormously.
Really though, India seems a better place as it is a) much more corrupt, and Microsoft could have many more government decisions its way for much less money than it lobbies with now, and b) India is not so firmly tied to the WTO so the US could not get at them quite as easily as Canada.
Does anybody know if this plan is still on the back burner?
They're still going to be held liable for their past actions. If I commit a major robbery in the US and flee to Mexico, if they catch me, they will extradite me, if I set foot back in the country before the statute of limitations expires the potential for penalty for the crime, they'll arrest me all the same.
If they move it to India or elsewhere, unless they honor the terms laid down by the government for their infractions, etc. their products will be banned from import into the US.
I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
Microsoft has been charged guilty of being a monopoly. Microsoft's Windows desktop operating system dominance came about because of abuse of this monopoly. When will Microsoft understand that THEY HAVE NO RIGHT DEMANDING THE GOVERNMENT PROTECT THEIR PRODUCT? That's almost like a mob leader, who broke the law to get the power he has, demanding that the police let him alone or else his empire will colapse....
-Kefabi
Splitting up Microsoft was too simplistic, and would have just created several little monopolies in place of one large one. It was totally unclear how this was supposed to remedy the antitrust violations and restore competition. The Court of Appeals confirmed that Microsoft broke the law, but they were also unconvinced that the original remedy would be effective.
Of course, the DOJ settlement proposal is much worse, offering a slap on the wrist to a convicted criminal after the conviction is upheld on appeal. Microsoft effectively murdered a number of other companies (such as Be) -- can you imagine a state prosecutor getting a murder conviction, which gets upheld on appeal, and then accepting a plea bargain for manslaughter with a suspended sentence? That's about as bad as what the DOJ is doing here. They should be ashamed.
The remaining states at least have the guts to push on, but the new judge seems predisposed to get rid of this case expeditiously, regardless of whether a settlement would be in the public interest, or whether it would remedy Microsoft's illegal conduct, deny them the fruits of their statutory violations, or restore competition in the computer industry.
Judge Jackson would have happily endorsed this proposed remedy -- why did he have to get so careless and get himself removed when his wisdom and insight are so desperately needed most to ensure justice is done? *sigh* I hope the new judge changes her tune -- the remaining states got the proper remedy exactly right this time.
Here's a summary of the states' proposed remedy:
- Require Microsoft to unbundle Internet Explorer and other middleware from Windows and offer a reduced price for versions without the extra features.
- Mandated uniform, non-discriminatory licensing of Windows to OEMs and other third parties.
- Continued licensing of previous Windows versions for 5 years after a new version is released at the same price.
- Mandatory and timely disclosure of technical information to ensure interoperability.
- Prohibition on knowingly interfering with the performance of non-Microsoft middleware without good cause.
- Ban on (anti-competitive) exclusive dealing.
- Ban on contractual tying.
- Ban on retaliation for supporting competing products or engaging in (this) litigation.
- Microsoft must respect OEM, user and third-party licensee choices if they want to make a non-Microsoft product the default middleware (e.g. Netscape browser).
- Prohibition on agreements not to compete (like their attempt to divide the browser market with Netscape between Microsoft and non-Microsoft platforms).
- Compulsory open-source licensing of Internet Explorer (to deny Microsoft the benefits of their illegally-gained browser monopoly).
- Mandatory distribution of a Sun-compatible Java JVM with Windows and IE (to give Java the widespread distribution it could have had without Microsoft's illegal behavior).
- Mandatory continued porting and support of Microsoft Office for the Macintosh platform.
- Mandatory auction of at least three licenses to allow porting of Microsoft Office to other platforms, and to provide all necessary information (including file formats) for doing so.
- Mandatory licensing of any Intellectual Property rights necessary for the effective implementation of this remedy proposal.
- Mandatory actual compliance with any industry standards that Microsoft claims to comply with, or de facto standards where justifiable. (Proprietary extensions allowed, but the industry-standard part must work correctly.)
- Appointment of an internal Compliance Officer within Microsoft to ensure compliance with the final judgement.
- Appointment of a Special Master empowered to investigate and resolve complaints quickly while minimizing demand on judicial resources.
- Establish consequences for patterns of non-compliance to discourage such behavior.
- Disclosure of certain information related to acquisitions to enable appropriate government oversight.
This is a well-thought-out, carefully-drafted remedy that would actually have a good chance of restoring competition and serving as a true remedy for Microsoft's established illegal behavior. This is the remedy we need, not splitting the company into "Baby Bills", each with its own ready-made monopoly to leverage...Deven
"Simple things should be simple, and complex things should be possible." - Alan Kay
The disagreement is only over what is done to Microsoft, over their punishment for breaking the law. Why should states-rights-vs-constitution even enter into the picture here? Since they've already been convicted, what difference does it make WHO is suggesting their punishment so long as it is one of the original plaintiffs?
IANAL, but I am somewhat of a history buff. It would seem to me that the question of who is suggesting MS' punishment shouldn't even be an issue so long as it is one of the original plaintiffs. They have already been found guilty, so all the judge has to do now is decide how best to punish them. All these motions to discredit or undermine proposed punishments would seem to be nothing but hot air to me. (meaning Lawyers are getting paid for making meaningless paper)
sorry if that sounds troll-ish.
Go Lakers!
Also, note that "guilty" isn't quite thye right word; this isn't a criminal proceeding, and it's "remedies" for the affected market, not punishment.
Microsoft is making a fairly narrow and technical argument about who has standing to enforce federal law. Of course, this reasoning also tosses out the states who agree with the feds . . . and again, it isn't enough to overcome the broader issues, or the state law claims upon which these states won . .
hawk
Why bother with NT if you need a Professor Dumbledor to install it properly?
You could just run the REAL VMS instead.
A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
OTOH, my wife used it as a websurfing workstation for 6 months and found it slow and unstable. She actually had me put Win98 FirstEdition back on the box.
...that and your idea of "heavy use" and our idea of heavy use are probably worlds apart.
Linux is easier to install than WinFoo in many instances. This is true despite your fantasies to the contrary.
Terms such "ease" and "utility" are far to subjective to be worth arguing about. OTOH, one of my novice user relatives has still yet to figure out how to use XP's CD burning facilties.
A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
There is also a free software variant of NextStep.
Even if the new macs aren't a "product of OSS", there will soon be their equal in terms of free software nonetheless.
That's the advantage of an open standard.
Competition and choice need not be ideas that you merely pay lip service to.
A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
Star Office is sufficiently fast for what most people use it for. That's all that is realy relevant.
Also, the bulk of Star Office was released to the community already. People no longer need an expensive elephant gun just to swat at gnats.
A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
This is not fundementally different from the pirate-ware foundations of MS-DOS, Windows and Office. Most people don't like to pay for things unecessarily. This is usually considered a postive characteristic in the non-computing world.
Why should people be forced to pay for functional needs that could be served by a 10+ year old copy of WordPerfect?
This is supposed to be a capitalist nation, not the corporate welfare state.
A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
That would be relevant if this were a discussion centered around VMS. However it is not.
Also despite being a Linux Zealot myself, I would be the first to recommend to my management that we replace our sparcs with VAX clusters. Unlike the Lemming-Sysadmin I realize that my discomfort with systems administration is irrelevant. Uptime and reliability is far more important. If you can trade some pain for some more nines, then it is your duy to do so.
A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
Most of judge Jackson's frustration with Microsoft came from their conduct in trial, like submitting obviously fake evidence, causing delay, Bill Gates acting stupid etc.
Unlike fleecing consumers for hundreds of billions of dollars, lying under oath is something that you can actually be thrown in jail for. Why weren't they?
"Permitting the nonsettling states to seek sweeping, nationwide relief under the federal antitrust laws and would raise serious constitutional questions"
Translation: Expect a Supreme Court appeal.
Are we really expected to believe that the states that comprise the Union (which are the only authorities that can amend the Constitution in the first place), have fewer rights under the Constitution than the Federal Government? Such an assertion offends the 10th amendment, and others.
Also, notice how this statement neatly frames the remedy in terms 100% favorable to MS?" I believe it up to the states what relief they are seeking. "Sweeping, nationwide relief" is inflammatory hyperbole.
True. But IN THIS CASE, Microsoft doesn't seem to be abusing their monopoly power to force game developers not to develop for Linux. Game developers simply choose not to, mainly because they don't make back what they expend.
Vintage computer games and RPG books available. Email me if you're interested.
Isn't that called tying? Is that illegal for a convicted monopolist to do? If they're really saying what you suggested, then haven't they just admitted to breaking the law and wanting to continue breaking the law?
My Greasemonkey scripts for Digg &
Woo hoo! I just skimmed through it. Wow!
Just to give one example, in section 19-f (somewhat simplified) if Microsoft tries to threaten someone with an unfounded IP lawsuit, they LOSE THE RIGHT to claim protection on IP. Unless I'm mistaken, entired catagoies of Microsoft IP would effectively become public domain - IF AND ONLY IF MICROSOFT PLAYS DIRTY. Damn! Now THAT has some teeth!
Now THESE are the kind of terms you expect a prosecuter and judge to come up with when you've been convicted.
-
- - You can't take something off the Internet! That's like trying to take pee out of a swimming pool.
Even if Microsoft is guilty of monopolistic practices, they are not required to write versions of IE for Linux, Solaris, *BSD, BeOS, etc.
What they said was that they didn't want to give away their intellectual property. That's all. They didn't say "We want to force people to use Windows in order to have access to Office and IE, which we have used our monopolistic powers to turn into must-have applications." They evil, not stupid.
They go on to state "This would destroy Windows desktop operating
systems as a stable and consistent development platform,"
Ends doesn't justify means???
Maybe they should have thought of that before the committed crimes????
What if MS never got away with any of the wrong stuff they have done?
where would there OS be today? Would it be a stable and consistant
development platform? Or would we have something much better?
How do you undo all the damage MS has done, put back in place all the
companies that MS wrongfully distroyed and harmed?
Fact is you can't undo the damage.
So what moron wants the same unfairness to not be done to MS?
MS deserves to the full brunt of their own medicine. Only the Legal system
for with Bill seems to know all about, doesn't really know how to right
things.
MS really shouldn't be allowed to continue in business. In some
industries if you are caught doing the wrong things you are kicked out,
and not allowed to do business ever again in that industry.
In fact given MS's persistance of doing wrong things, removing them from
the industry is the only fair way to deal with them.
The question is: what to do with their customer base?
As a going out of business sale, the proceeds is to finance the conversion
of their products to open source Public Domain. Seeing how they took so
much from the Public with their deceptions.
If you lie, if you cheat, you lose!!!
If you murder someone, you can end up on death row.
Problem is that the laws just aren't tough enough for the computer industry,
and as such it lets to many crooks run the industry and entrap everyone by not
giving them a reasonable alternative.
Monies and property from drug busts go to re-enforce what?
Here in computer industry crime, it should go to make criminal activities simply
not worth it. Via, supporting GPL, Public Commonwealth of computer technology.
Since I couldn't fall back on the classic "I hate my job; it's off to law school," as I'd already been there, I specialized with the other classic: grad school.
hawk