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Battle Creek, Michigan Settles Dispute with ORBZ
Peter Sachs, Esq. writes: "According to a press release that now appears on its official website, the City of Battle Creek, Michigan has 'settled"' its dispute with ORBZ.ORG. The City concluded that ORBZ.ORG had no criminal intent to cause the City harm by testing the 'open relay' status its server. In fact, the Assistant to the City Manager said, '...we recognize that [ORBZ.ORG] has done us a service. We are going to be taking a close look at our policies regarding Lotus security updates and how we can avoid the issue in general'"
Comment removed based on user account deletion
A government entity thinking clearly and levelly, and actually thanking geeks for trying to help them? Astounding.
Okay, everyone, it's time to pack up and go. Would the last one out of the server room please hit the BRS?
They that would sacrifice their
My personal boycott of Kellogg's products continues at least until they repay Ian for his legal expenses incurred as a result of the need to defend against the city's stupidity.
I understand that Kellogg's has nothing to do with the stupidity of the city, but they're the biggest taxpayer/employer in Battle Creek, and that's close enough for me. As an American, collateral damage means nothing to me!
Warning: This signature may offend some viewers.
"...we recognize that [ORBZ.ORG] has done us a service."
It's about fucking time that someone pulled their heads out of their asses and realized that it wasn't necessary to start filing lawsuits and criminal charges to punish *smart* tech behavior!
Unfortuneately, it may already be too late for ORBZ. Here's hoping that ORBZ comes back up in light of this statement.
The next Slashdot story will be ready soon, but subscribers can beat the rush and slashdot the links early!
First the boss makes a stink about ORBZ an then they get slashdotted. Glad I don't work there.
-- I have a private email server in my basement.
Proudly ontopic, insightful, funny, and interesting for over 30 years!
Lotus security updates? Avoid the issue in general? What issue?? Any links, relevant information from anyone would be great.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
The good news: For once, a government entity came to communicate with someone who wasn't really doing it harm, but actually good, and managed to realize that.
The bad news: They still haven't quite understood the situation yet, based on the article taken from the City of Battle Creek page:
Spam refers to a computer prank that causes multiple duplicate emails, sometimes several hundred at once, to clog up the recipient's mail server.
They are getting better, though.
"What's so random about flipping a coin? Ever heard of the I Ching?"
Pity that their first reply was to sue, before even considering the case. It's a pity that ORBZ let itself be SLAPPed out of existance first.
Unfortunately, there really isn't any way to stop this sort of behaviour apart from instuting very harsh penalties for threatening to sue and not following through with the threat or reaching an adequate mediated position with all affected parties.
A$#*holes I say - even if they have recanted now, it's too late to fix the damage. For example the mail-filters plugin for Squirrelmail has had orbz removed - even if it comes back up, people running that code won't be using it.
The Detective had no reason not to believe he was pursuing a hacker when he issued a search warrant.
I always thought judges issued search warrants, and the police acted upon them.
Also on the same page.....
Manager Renews Search for New Police Chief
Are the two events possibly related?
Comment removed based on user account deletion
"The City concluded that ORBZ.ORG had no criminal intent to cause the City harm by testing the 'open relay' status its server.
The City also announced that it really like to be capitalized when referred to. It also notes that the word "of" is still banned when referring to stories about The City.
------
Today's Top Deals
Nope. Read Ian's message. He said that he wasn't closing ORBZ because of *this* case. He was closing it because of the subsequent cases.
-russ
Don't piss off The Angry Economist
From the article:
Not quite, here is a better analogy:
If handed some crack everybody should know not to give it to children (forward spam), and not to take it (create a mail loop inside the server).
[End of diatribe. We now return you to your regularly scheduled programming...] - Larry Wall in Configure from the perl
I told Ian, time and time again, that he shouldn't be testing innocent servers. Test servers that have sent spam, yes, by all means. But you can't go around invading innocent servers.
-russ
Don't piss off The Angry Economist
Note to Battle Creek city managers: hire competent IT professionals, and this won't happen.
"avoid the issue..."
yeah, more like "avoid being bitch slapped by the hords of loud bitchy anti-spam leagions of the internet."
Good call Battle Creek, Michigan
) Human Kind Vs Human Creation
) It'd be interesting to see how many humans would survive to serve us.
This is a very good development. It is refreshing to see people admit their mistake and back down. It is even more refreshing to see them confess that they realize that ORBZ has actually done them a service, the problem was theirs in the first place and they will try and do better in future.
All is forgiven Michigan IMHO.
in DDOS'ing (slashdotting) Battle Creek's server? Will Slashdot get prosecuted next?
Yea, that would be a mail bomb, but I haven't heard the phrase used in years.
...I note this wasn't blurb'd as being a "must read...".
Guess we can ignore it and wait for the next one.
Martha! Hand me the remote! Damn slashpot punks are goofing and I need to see how that lawsuit the Koreans are pressing against Leno is going...maybe Alan Smithee has some decent news on his show.
for a better link...
./test triggered a weakness in the version of Lotus Domino software used by the City and caused a major slowdown of the City's network for about a day on March 22, 2002.
The email test triggered a weakness in the version of Lotus Domino software used by the City and caused a major slowdown of the City's email network for about a day on February 25, 2002.
The
-jim
From the press release by Michelle Reen, Assistant to the City Manager, Battle Creek, Michigan:
This analogy is flawed. Here's why:
Shooting people is something where, if a vest is not worn, can be expected to cause serious injury or death. Even if a vest is worn, the outcome can be injury, and death has been known to happen.
A more accurate analogy would be tapping someone on the shoulder to see if they are alive. But you don't expect that one in tens of thousands happens to have a very sore shoulder, and this tapping causes great pain.
My analogy is more correct because the kinds of tests ORBZ does is not one where a reasonable person doing this kind of activity (reasonable in this case meaning someone who understands the SMTP protocol, and related standards like RFC822, TCP, etc) would expect to cause serious problems. At most, this should trigger an alarm in more secure servers, which can then be filtered for this known testing source. ORBZ is not including codes intended to damage or destroy computer systems in these tests just to see if they would be destroyed (as Ms. Reen's analogy would suggest).
It seems to me that the city of Battle Creek perhaps acted a bit hasty in the way they reacted. I'm not saying that they shouldn't have the police involved in the investigation, and I'm not saying they shouldn't pursue acquiring information to further that investigation. However, such an investigation should be tempered by the understanding that defective software, especially that which has not been properly maintained, or properly configured, can, and very frequently does, fail on account of that defect simply as the result of a properly formed standards defined computer or network activity. We all know PC systems (especaily, but not exclusively, Windows) can fail at times even though only normal activity is taking place. Just because an activity can come from outside, from the internet, does not mean that it can only be malicious.
I recommend the City of Battle Creek Michigan, and any other government or business in like circumstances, operate under the following suggestions:
Also, get the reverse DNS fixed on your mail server.
now we need to go OSS in diesel cars
And I have a penis lodged in my anus. It hurts. A lot. I can't get it out. Suggestions?
No, next the SSSCA is quietly withdrawn from Congress when its revealed that Senator Hollings was just an animatronic robot planted by Disney Corp.
Liberty in your lifetime
Since no one has mentioned this yet, I'd just like to point out that Battle Creek, Michigan is the home of the whole F'n show, Mr. 420 himself, Rob Van Dam!
Liberate your mind in two clicks or less.
Oh, no, you can't. People who don't wear bulletproof vests (unlike badly configured mail-servers) harm only themselves, not others.
Thank you City of Battle Creek. The damage is done.
Now, do the right thing and pick up the project and pay for it. It is over, dead, gone, killed off. Now, will you fix it, or just apologize?
On the user, not the software vendor. IBM goes out of it's way (as does MSTF and.... I can't think of any other business app companies) to let you know if/when there needs to be an update for security. Like this wonderful page: Lotus Security.
Disney's animatronics are much more convincing than Senator Hollings. You'd think that Disney's Imagineers could give him pointers on how to appear more life-like....
One of the main issues here is whether ORBZ should be punished for checking a domain for SPAMing with authorization from that domain. There are several pros/cons for doing it this way:
PROS:
-SPAMing domain administrators aren't likely to respond to an email asking if they can be
-Incompetent administrators who will refuse and/or just not know what the check is so not want it to be done.
-Some administrators will simply delete it by mistake, not ever finding out they have an open relay.
-Also more reasons which I haven't thought of because I'm dead tired.
CONS:
-Lotus Domino and other servers with problems might either crash, or report false positives. This is a big problem for companies, but...they should really upgrade anyway.
-Probably some that I haven't thought of here too.
I think the positives far outweigh the
We were using their service for about 12,000 customers, and it worked quite well. Ah well.
---
It's my personal opinion that if someone sends one of these emails and it crashes your server, yes, it is your fault. Better to find out now, when you can fix it, before you lose more productivity later on when it is combined with all of the other
Maybe it will act as a reality check for all those managements out there who think security isn't a big issue. It is.
"Sed Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes?" -Juvenal
http://www.battlecreekenquirer.com/news/stories/20 020322/localnews/1871053.html
Oh, my. These folks need Tech Help in just the worst way - won't someone write them with a set of correct definitions?
"It is morally wrong to initiate the aggressive use of force.." Of course, defensive force is fair game...
Given this most recent development. What is the chance that other local governments will follow suit and not only stop prosecution but actually ask for help in matters such as these? A smart investor would get ORBZ back on its feet and use them as a security firm that specializes in government systems. Using this whole ordeal as credentials would be the best solution.
Posted with post.pl
Just my 3 centavos but...
Orbz.org and other blackhole orgs bears some of the responsibility. They immediately blackhole an open relay without giving them a grace period to fix it or work with orbz and others to getit fixed.
I appreciate the service they provide but being a blackhole block site, you SHOULD be prepared for lawsuits or you shouldnt provide the service and be in that business, That is just how things work in our sue happy society... so get over it and quit whining.
Unfotunately, until the feds make it illegal to spam, it isnt going to stop anyway and in fact will get worse in the coming years, with or without blackhole lists. It is like trying to put toothpaste back in the tube, spam is fucking here to stay and get worse than it is now.
Lotus Notes is a piece of crap mail server anyway and VERY expensive to upgrade and patch.
And their analogy "...just because everyone should wear a computerized bulletproof vest doesn't mean that shooting people to find out who isn't wearing one..." isn't exactly striking either...
Of course, even if you can't get the spammers in a strict loop, telling relay1 to that your machine's ip address is that of relay 2, relay2 that it's relay3, relay3 that it's relay4, ..., should at least leave the Korean Spam Relays talk to each other and slowing down the number of messages they can send to real people.
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
The various parts of the US Government tend to be oblivious to Information Security issues. But they do know prosecution. And that they persue with gusto.
We were constantly told that there was no budget to support infosec activity. But when the inevitable compromise was discovered, in came the big investigation. Infosec meetings included management's gleefull discussion of FBI involvement, followed by an FBI agent's discussion of "lessons learned" (rarely touching on real issues and always tech-light) and what equipment had been taken as evidence. Of course, the lab loosing the IT resource rarely had the budget to replace the missing hardware. Everyone paid.
Of course, a bit of money up front to secure the environment from the beginning would probably avoid the whole investigation and enable the lab to continue using its hard-faught-for resources.
Back to Battle Creek. Sudden revisions on updating their infrastructure. Lots of grave concern over people running around doing damage to them, indestinguishable from all those Evil hackers. And prosecution talk.
Looks like the City of Battle Creek will be paying the high cost of ignoring infosec too.
Couldn't someone take ORBZ system and implement it somewhere else, where US law cannot cause them to stop working? Like somewhere in Europe for example...
They should investigate this
The interesting thing about all this is that hackers and geeks will always be ahead of the game, and the best police in the business won't be up with the technology.
:)
Why? Because good hackers and good netizens ain't going to join the police
Simon
Conversion Rate Optimisation French / English consultant
Here's a quote from the city's attorney's:
"But, if I can draw the analogy that just because everyone should wear a computerized bulletproof vest doesn't mean that shooting people to find out who isn't wearing one is the best answer. If Mr. Gulliver chooses to do this, he perhaps shouldn't be surprised that he will occasionally be confused with the type of individual he is fighting against."
Exactly.
Look, With every articale like this, we have a chance to respond to the ignorant morans who choose to perpetuate this sort of nonsense.
Write them, an inform them of the idiacy that they perpetuate. I think we can make a difference, if we embarrass them, enough
No, the fact that they used the word "duplicate" shows that they do not, in fact, "get it".
Pushin' 'n dealin', shovin' 'n stealin'
Must be something in the air in Battle Creek. I don't know what Kellogg's is belching out of their smokestacks these days, but I wish the RIAA and MPAA assholes would get a whiff of it.
~Philly
...stay very current on his Lotus Notes patches. Indeed, from now on, whenever news of a Lotus Notes security hole pops up on Securityfocus or elsewhere, guess who the script kiddies will try it out against first?
Say no to software patents.
I always thought a mail bomb was doing something like forging a request for the control file (or something huge) from NNTP servers. You post it to a newsgroup, and all the (now considered misconfigured) servers that receive your article would mail megabytes upon megabytes to the forged email address. The victim would get 100MB of mail a day for about a week. Now THAT was a mail bomb!! :)
This is more of a "crash the server exploit", or as many have already said, "DoS attack".
Intelligent Life on Earth
In turn, however, we have asked him to reconsider his policy of making unannounced tests on servers.
But if sending a mail to a server could cause it to crash, how else could you contact someone to get permission to test? Phone calling?
creation science book
Hopefully ORBZ will stay shut down, right?
:)
hawk, watching for californians under his bed . . .
of the City of London... none of this johnny-come-lately new towns with no banking industry to speak of.
giving access to source code so I can implement my own personal ORBZ server??
Coderz 4 Life
Why bother when there are other blackhole services to use like MAPS http://www.mail-abuse.org or ORDB.org http://www.ordb.org ?
Let me guess (based on pure speculation):
There are always exceptions, but the average municipality is not stealing the top minds from NASA to run their IT operations. Every once in a while, I peruse IT job listings. When I see a huge list of unrelated requirements combined with a pitiful salary, it's usually (a) municipal gov't, (b) school systems (same thing), or (c) retail. Before I get flamed by an army of municipal IT workers, I will clarify this sweeping generality: Municipalities hire too few people, they overcommit their resources, and the salaries encourage turnover. Surely, any reasonably qualified sysadmin (certified or not) would have detected & fixed the Lotus vulnerability (even if after-the-fact). The press release tells a story that makes it look like they have no dedicated IT staff whatsoever. I could be wrong on this, but if they spent less on lawyers and more on IT, this problem would have been prevented or quickly resolved.
According to Netcraft, the website at ci.battle-creek.mi.us is running "Microsoft-IIS/5.0 on Windows 2000." The prosecution rests. This Battle Creek operation must have been a real bundle of joy when they discovered the "Code Red" worm.
Second, this all could have been avoided if Ian Gulliver hadn't freaked when he got the order. If he'd waited a bleeding 24 hours this would have been resolved and ORBZ could have gone on its merry way.
It's very easy to be an armchair general from the peanut gallary, especially since you have nothing at risk.
This was a (relatively rare) instance of a government excersizing some common sense. There was no guarantee that this would be the outcome.
Imagine if it had gone the other way (they pressed charges) and he had continued operating as before. Going in front of a judge and being forced to admint that "yes, I engaged in the same activity for which I was being prosecuted after having been served notice," is the kind of thing that results in penalties that tend toward the harsh, rather than linient, if convicted.
ORBZ was a service being provided for our benefit, for the "greater good" if you will (yes, I know how alien that phrase sounds in our Money Ueber Alles culture, but there do still exist people who spend their energy trying to better all of humankind, rather than merely themselves. They may be endangered, but they aren't extinct just yet). It is not at all reasonable to expect someone to risk fines, seizure of equipment, and possibly even jail time simply so they can go on doing everyone else a favor.
The government body in question may be contrite now, but the damage is done, and they are, ultimately, the cause of that damage. Whitewashing their responsiblity now behind the argument that "that's just how investigations are done" does nothing to alleviate their responsiblity, though it does underscore just how aggressive, flawed, and Orwellian many of our "standard investigative procedures" have become. Not that we needed any more examples, we seem to have been getting hit in the face with that fact every day lately.
The Future of Human Evolution: Autonomy
We used ordb.org and while it did block a significant amount of spam, it also seemed to block a considerable number of our clients (we service healthcare companies and I won't speculate about what this says about their IS/IT groups). The last straw was when it added a major ISP's email server (which probably did need fixing but we nonetheless couldn't afford the downtime). Of late, I've quit using blacklists in favor of simply blocking offending netblocks which has actually yielded better results with less grief. This works because most of the offending netblocks are not something that we'd be expecting legitimate email from.
Using services are orbz is opt in, not mandatory.
I for one could care less about an open relay getting a grace period to fix their problem.
It was only when a bunch of them were blacklisted did it get their attention to fix the problem.
Have you ever tried getting a response from a "postmaster" account?
The fact is until their users are impacted, it won't matter.
Now that ORBZ is offline, we have notice a SIGNIFICANT increase in the amount of crap flowing into our systems.
Old age and treachery almost always overcome youth and skill.
My one and only printed Slashdot story was an item at Slashback: 640K, Pioneer, Payback that tells about a site that already has a list of the 800 numbers used by SPAMMERS.
"Live Free or Die." Don't like it? Then keep out of the USA
Does anyone know if its possible to get the last snapshot of the reverse DNS database IAN had?
;)
I think if ORBZ was run on a patching basis we could choose to upgrade our databases on a daily basis.
Or better yet, use a P2P protocol among build a distributed network so that we don't have to suffer with the "READY-FIRE!-AIM" mentality of the technologically challenged
Old age and treachery almost always overcome youth and skill.
No, the fact that they used the word "duplicate" shows that they do not, in fact, "get it".
The definition of "spam" in the Jargon File lists duplication as the primary criterion under senses 3 and 4. Junk E-mail (UBE) enters the picture only in sense 5.
Funny: The first listed sense of "spam" refers to a buffer overflow.
Will I retire or break 10K?
SpamCop doesn't even check anything. They just leech off of ORBZ and the like.
Wrong answer. SpamCop maintains its own RBL based on reported spam pasted into its web form. It also allows users to check or un-check popular RBLs such as ORDB.
-- Damian Yerrick, tepples@spamcop.net, a satisfied customerWill I retire or break 10K?
I'm glad to hear this, even if Ian doesn't bring back ORBZ. Kudos to the Battle Creek people for recognizing the truth and doing the right thing.
... for driving by Colors on the Corner on Friday night at 2:30
Now that Battle Creek has admitted culpability, and confirmed that the cause of their problem is a defective e-mail server, it's time for ORBZ to sue the fuck out of them - for fun and profit.
Okay, so there are thousands of ticked off sysadmins out there, simple solution: If thousands of sys admins blocked battle-creek.mi.us and any/all other business's in that area (kellogs), wouldn't it suck to be them? What if IAN didn't just randomly 'test their server'?, what if someone reported spam being sent from that server? - then let's say IAN's service was testing the server to see if it should be blocked upon someone's request? Who in their right mind uses anything but linux to handle email anyway? Lotus Domino? - come on.
I was outraged at the uncalled-for comparison contained in this half-baked press release. I sent Michelle Reen (author of the press release) an email. Here is an excerpt:
I am very glad to see that the City Manager recognizes Mr. Gulliver's positive role. It is a discredit to Lotus Corp that their Domino server exhibits the bug that caused you to think Orbz.org was harming your server, and it is entirely their fault.
But then, you offer a totally misleadling and uselessly aggressive analogy: "if I can draw the analogy that just because everyone should wear a computerized bulletproof vest doesn?t mean that shooting people to find out who isn?t wearing one is the best answer." Well, I am sorry, but you just cannot draw this far-fetched analogy. This is akin to present spam fighting -- a valuable cause -- to drive-by shooting, a misrepresentation that could be classified as libel.
Here is a more considerate analogy: Orbz.org periodically broadcast a public warning over its PA louspeakers, and your server had a fit thinking it was insulted.
The Internet is currently a community. Volunteers such as Orbz.org are doing their best to keep this community safe and clean, by fighting con artists and spammers. If misguided, overreacting organizations keep blasting volunteer efforts, then Internet users such as your organization will have to pay large sums to private companies in order to obtain similar services. I am sure such an outcome would outrage your taxpayers.
I hope her clue meter will soon go into positive numbers. Because she obviously lacks even the most basic Internet survival instinct.
Of course, a quick way to drive the point home would be to make sure her email address, gjstrand@ci.battle-creek.mi.us, gets spammed to death. Then maybe she'd start to appreciate spamfighters such as Orbz. Anyone wants to put this address in some newsgroup? How about alt.bestiality.hamsters-and-townhall-clerks?
Naaah, don't do that, that would be evil...
--
Mad science! Robots! Underwear! Cute girls! Full comic online! http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/
McFly777
- - -
"What do people mean when they say the computer went down on them?" -Marilyn Pittman
Can't say I'm sorry to see any of the Fundamentalist nutbar 'spamcops' shutdown or fade away. At least in a police state you get to hate 'the man.' Here you worship him.
I took note today (March 22) that my sendmail is once again rejecting mail based on inputs.orbz.org. There's no www.orbz.org though, is orbz back up?
I disagree! A search warrant most certainly *is* a big deal. Primarily, it's "carte blanche" for authorities to invade your privacy, for the purpose of trying to collect evidence against you for a legal case.
Most often, it also includes seizures (supposedly necessary because the authorities can't fully determine the purpose/value of the "suspicious items" they turn up during the search without taking them to their labs and experts). That means ORBZ would lose use of their computer equipment until the investigation was completed. (And don't think they're always quick about it. They can, and usually do, hold onto seized items for years - meaning they'll be of little to no value by the time you get them back, even if they find you completely innocent!)
Think for a second: you're a government agency, and you notice someone sending bits to your server that make it crash. What's your first response? What's anyone's first response? Find out who did it, and search warrants are very good at that.
;-)
Think for a second: You're anybody on the face of the planet who is actually sane and rational. Your first response in the same situation: Block the bits, figure out why those bits crashed your shit, and then fix the fucking problem.
If your box explodes, then you are at fault. Period. Unless you are running M$ products.
- Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day, but set him on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life.
You _are_ a prick.
My first response is to firewall them off. My second response is to email abuse@domain and ask them what's going on.
I tend not to use explosives to open stubborn pickle jars either.
Please do, and enjoy those delicious genetically modified products every morning until your colon grows eyeballs. Then you'll be able to comb your hair without need of a mirror. :D
Warning: This signature may offend some viewers.
This could be a problem, my servers have never been on the ORBZ list, and today I saw some rejects (both of my servers) based on ORBZ:
:)
This is the Postfix program at host nm2.networkmotion.net.
I'm sorry to have to inform you that the message returned
below could not be delivered to one or more destinations.
For further assistance, please send mail to
If you do so, please include this problem report. You can
delete your own text from the message returned below.
---------
The Postfix program
: host smtp.cogeco.ca[216.221.81.25] said: 554 Service
unavailable; [xxx.xxx.Xxx.xx] blocked using inputs.orbz.org
---------
This is problem isolated or is that just me?
This could be a big problem, I don't know how many servers will need to be reconfigured if this is caused by orbz being down..
I hope the fine folks at COGECO figure this one out, cause I'm trying to email my client
I'm seeing mail from my server bounced as well, even though my mail server isn't visible to the Internet. The message reads:
550 5.0.0 Mail from xxx.xxx.xxx.xxx refused by blackhole site inputs.orbz.org The message that caused this notification was:
Anyone who loves or hates any language, platform, or manufacturer, doesn't know what they're talking about.
Turned out that the SYSADMIN had configured the server to bounce IPs that didn't resolve through relays.orbs.org, rather than bounce those that DID resolve. The result was that all of internet was blocked as an open relay, since orbS.org was no longer responding to queries...
Yeah, I wonder how many installs of mail servers out there uses orbz.org and is misconfigured out there.
There are 2 problems here -
1. When the e-mails get bounced, the sometime stay as "deferred" so it'll try and try again.
2. The session takes longer because it's trying to get to orbz.org and waiting for timeout.
I haven't seen too many people complaining about this, so I'm still wondering if it's my problem.
spamcop.net is a very usefull spam fighting tool
http://Lenny.com
you can find some othe rways to fight spam here
http://www.lenny.com/spam/
http://Lenny.com
you can cost spammers real money by going to goto.com
and do a search for bulk email ech link you click will cost spam companies several dollars
http://Lenny.com
Oh, now your just making me hungry!
The Domino admin didn't have much of an excuse for not upgrading to Domino 5.0.9 unless she modified the NAB and other standard templates AND the incremental upgrades failed OR she was running a Domino server on an AS/400, AIX, Linux or Solaris platforms.
Dcavanaugh said:
>
When I see a huge list of unrelated requirements combined with a pitiful salary, it's usually (a) municipal gov't, (b) school systems (same thing), or (c) retail.
>
You're not proved wrong I bet,
at least not just yet!
Burma Shave