NASA Satellite Stranded

Account 10 writes: "BBC News has a story about one of NASA's newest and most sophisticated satellites. Launched a couple of weeks ago, it was supposed to have moved itself up into the correct orbit . Once there, one of its roles would be to route data between the ISS, other satellites and the ground as aprt of the TDRS (Tracking and Data Relay Satellite) project. However a fuel tank is leaking and it cannot reach its orbit. One suggestion is that it maneuver itself into an orbit where the shuttle can reach and rescue it - to repair it and send it on its way, or bring it home to be launched again."

Comments

So sad

[Kasmiur]

that we find out info about a USA space program from a european news site. W

Re:So sad

[(outer-limits)]

I think this article must be a mistake, this is surely a reference to the chronically inept Communist space program. Editors, please rectify. Nothing ever goes wrong with a cappo space program.

Silly Putty and Spit

[AlaskanUnderachiever]

Wasn't there a recent slashdot story (in the past few months) about a budget sattelite put up for under 50k with a metal ruler for an antenna that's still working? I've got a 84 jeep bumper I'm willing to donate for the next communications sattelite. Hell, if they're willing to put my name on the sattelite, I'll throw in my old C64 to run it.

Re:Silly Putty and Spit

[56ker]

How about putting "At least this one works" on the next one? :o)

WAIT A MINUTE!!!!!!!!

[gir]

"Once there, one of its roles would be to route data between the ISS, other satellites and the ground as aprt of the TDRS (Tracking and Data Relay Satellite) project."

Without the aprt, I think this project is doomed. in fact, with out a daily dose of aprt in our lives, we are all doomed.

::runs around screaming about being doomed::

Some Suggestions for NASA...

[Loki_1929]

1) Fire all the satellite's rockets to bring it screaming into the atmosphere on the 4th of July for one hell of a fireworks show.

2) Get Tommy Lee Jones and the rest of the crew from Space Cowboys to give it a good kick.

3) Replace the leaking fuel cell with a new one filled with Nitro Glycerin.

4) Mass-produce the same satellite and sell it in hobby shops under the name, "My First Satellite Set".

5) Sell it to the US Miltary as a target for the new missle shield.

6) "Fuck it, we're going to Mars now."

7) Call AAA for a tow. (or at least a jump-start)

8) Tell the monkey inside it to peddle faster.

9) Make up some ridiculous excuse to explain why you've wasted several million dollars on something that doesn't work - like a fuel leak from a damag... wait a minute...

10) Pretend everything's going as planned.

Kudos

[Anonymous Coward]

A bit more filler, get Rudy Ray Moore for Slade, that German guy for a villain, and Spike Lee to direct, and you won't have enough room in your SUV for all the Oscars they'll be shoving at you.

Dangerous?

[evil_one]

However, experts are saying either option would be a very complicated and potentially dangerous mission.

Well yeah, would you want to fly a glowing hot shuttle through the atmosphere with a cargo bay loaded with a leaking fuel cell?

Re:Dangerous?

[Anonymous Coward]

Presumably they'd do a patch on it before bringing it back; the patch doesn't have to have a long life, just enough to get it back down.

Re:Dangerous?

[mpe]

Well yeah, would you want to fly a glowing hot shuttle through the atmosphere with a cargo bay loaded with a leaking fuel cell?

The cargo bay is actually air tight. The problem would come later in the descent when the preasure release vents are opened.

Re:Dangerous?

[uberdave]

It is unlikely that they would bring it down. They would either replace the defective part, or slap a strip of duct tape, refuel and then relaunch it in orbit.

Will Boeing take the $825m hit?

[Constrain_Me]

Under the terms of the contract Nasa does not accept delivery of the satellite until it is in its final orbit. If it gets there Nasa will redesignate it TDRS-9.

Who launched the thing? If they can't recover it will Boeing have to take the hit? Not a good year for the airline industry.

Re:Will Boeing take the $825m hit?

[evil_one]

Um, Boeing isn't part of the arline industry, it's part of the areospace industry. The airline industry is the one that actually ferries people & goods around on the airplanes.

Re:Will Boeing take the $825m hit?

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't worry, Boeing is subsidised by the government with our money, so if they lose any money the taxpayers are the one's that will feel the loss. Now on the other hand, if Boeing were to make a profit on this, it would be kept by them.

Ahhh, free trade...

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=noam+chomsk y

Re:Will Boeing take the $825m hit?

[jerryasher]

In the past it has been the insurance companies that take the hit. Of course, with each failure to achieve orbit, insurance prices have risen and risen, such that now, there is a reasonable chance that Boeing has self-insured this satellite.

Re:Will Boeing take the $825m hit?

[s390]

...there is a reasonable chance that Boeing has self-insured this satellite.

A great comfort to the 23,000+ people who are slated to get laid off by Boeing's commercial aircraft business this year, as a direct result of all the brain-dead Bush administration's "security" hysteria preventing the traveling public from... traveling.

Re:Will Boeing take the $825m hit?

[JordanH]

• A great comfort to the 23,000+ people who are slated to get laid off by Boeing's commercial aircraft business this year, as a direct result of all the brain-dead Bush administration's "security" hysteria preventing the traveling public from... traveling.

This seems like revisionist history to me. Putting aside that it may or may not be true that current administration generated hysteria is actually holding down the traveling industry to some extent, Boeing announced those layoffs within a few days after Sept. 11th.

As I recall, the travel industry was suppressed at that point due to all flights being grounded. A sensible move to hold down hysteria actually seeing as nobody wanted to fly anyway - people were cancelling reservations right and left anyway - and it probably was good that security was completely reviewed before starting up again.

It was a cynical move by Boeing to announce layoffs so soon. Boeing was trying to feed into the general hysteria and line up for bailout bucks themselves.

Re:Will Boeing take the $825m hit?

[yobbo]

I kinda get the feeling that the terrorists had something to do with it aswell...

Re:Will Boeing take the $825m hit?

[Anonymous Coward]

same difference.

Re:Will Boeing take the $825m hit?

[Anonymous Coward]

In a word, no.

Boeing will likely take a lesser financial hit, involving loss of award fee or possibly loss of the last "delivery" payment. This is a government satellite, and the government always self-insures.

Re:Will Boeing take the $825m hit?

[Anonymous Coward]

It was a cynical move by Boeing to announce layoffs so soon. Boeing was trying to feed into the general hysteria and line up for bailout bucks themselves.

This is bullshit. The hysteria was a rather natural result that nearly everyone felt (did you want to get on an airplane after a few days? weeks? months?).

Boeing made the only move that they could at the time. Air disasters have always led to drops in demand for air travel, and this one was a doozie. That leads to deferred and cancelled orders. Boeing was left with the choice of laying off some workers immediately to stem the losses, or lose more money and have larger layoffs down the road.

Re:Will Boeing take the $825m hit?

[JordanH]

• Boeing made the only move that they could at the time.

With everyone worried about the effect the Sept. 11 had on an already-faltering economy, and the fact that Boeing could count on their Defense Business to boom to compensate to some extent, they could have waited a few weeks to announce their definite plans.

Didn't they announce layoffs before the week was out? I'd say they were trying to push Congress that was already debating the Airline Bailout bill into action.

It's all conspiracy theory level observation, sure, but I still think it looks fishy.

Re:Better story

[Anonymous Coward]

Good story. I'll bet it sells a lot of advertising in the 8:30-9:00 PM slot.

Without a real space station we just pedestrians

[Anonymous Coward]

hen is nasa ever gunna wake up? they shoulda been buildin moonbase by now ~ if nasa was an os it would still be 8 bit ~ the whole organization needs reform ~ split it up, separate the os from the apps so to speak i.e. let nasa contract out lift to ups or fedex, build a space mall .. nikey will come!

Cost of Repairs vs. Relaunch vs. Reentry

[stuffman64]

Well, NASA has 3 choices Re-entry, Retrieve and Relauch, or Repair.

The first choice, Re-entry, is just to give up on it (in otherwords, send it back into the atmosphere and hope it doens't hit anyone, or hit a target so we get free tacos). I doubt they will do this considering the astronomical (pun somewhat intended) amount of money they would have wasted on the whole thing.

Retrieve and Relaunch is probably unlikey too, because not only do they have to pay to send a shuttle up (although they can just do it on a regularly scheduled mission), but then they have to pay to launch it again. It would be pretty hard, IMHO, to snatch a sattilite, return it to earth, and relauch it without further damaging it. Plus, I'm sure it is more dangerous to land a shuttle with all that extra weight in the cargo area.

That leaves us with repair, the most reasonable option. Send up some guys on the next shuttle mission with Duct Tape (about $1.50 a roll, depending on store and brand). Voila! Problem solved!

Re:Cost of Repairs vs. Relaunch vs. Reentry

[Anonymous Coward]

I think Duck Tape is even cheaper.
hahahahahahaaaaaaaaaahhaahha

Re:Cost of Repairs vs. Relaunch vs. Reentry

[DigitalGodBoy]

Well, NASA has 3 choices Re-entry, Retrieve and Relauch, or Repair.

Abort, Retry, Ignore?

I know that last one doesn't line up, but it's early and I thought I would try.
--------

Re:Cost of Repairs vs. Relaunch vs. Reentry

[geoswan]

Well, NASA has 3 choices Re-entry, Retrieve and Relauch, or Repair. The first choice, Re-entry, is just to give up on it (in otherwords, send it back into the atmosphere and hope it doens't hit anyone, or hit a target so we get free tacos)...

Maybe, maybe not. From the original BBC story it sounds like those at mission control don't know whether it has enough fuel to make it back to an orbit where the shuttle can retrieve it. I am going to speculate that if they don't have enough fuel to make it back to an orbit where the shuttle can retrieve it, then they don't have enough fuel for re-entry either.

Obviously, Boeing had already started moving it up to geosynchronous orbit, or there wouldn't be any question of moving it back to an orbit where it could be retrieved -- it would still be in an orbit where it could be retrieved. This means it is much less of a problem leaving it in place. Unlike Mir, and Spacelab, if it is partway to geosynchronous, above where the shuttle can retrieve it, its orbit isn't going to decay to an altitude where it might crash for eons.

...Retrieve and Relaunch ... would be pretty hard, IMHO, to snatch a sattilite, return it to earth, and relauch it without further damaging it...

How do you figure this? Matching orbits won't be a problem. NASA, and the Russian space agency, must have done this thousands of times by now. Heck, didn't the tugs that supplied Mir do it by remote control? (-8 And they only crashed one once. 8-)

Isn't the robot arm strong enough, yet gentle enough to grab it, once it has matched orbits? Maybe they wouldn't be able to roll the photocells back up. What other problems did you anticipate?

That leaves us with repair, the most reasonable option. Send up some guys on the next shuttle mission with Duct Tape (about $1.50 a roll, depending on store and brand). Voila! Problem solved!

Yeah, we'll send Red Green. (whose movie, "Duct tape forever", opens up any day now. And my buddy who wins stuff won us advance tickets for the local sneak preview.)

Seriously though, my question is, if Boeing has to wait for a next generation shuttle to retrieve it, how many years should they wait, before the satellite last its value? Two years? Five years? Ten years? Whose next generation shuttle will be ready first?

If the Soviets could make robot frieghters dock with Mir, why can't someone make a robot tug just large enough to fly to high orbit satellites like this, and tow them down to where the shuttle can retrieve them?

Re:Cost of Repairs vs. Relaunch vs. Reentry

[adminispheroid]

Well, NASA has 3 choices Re-entry, Retrieve and Relauch, or Repair.

I fear this post has missed an essential point -- as the article makes clear, this isn't NASA's problem, it's Boeing's problem. NASA doesn't pay for the thing and doesn't own it until it's in the right orbit.

Re:Cost of Repairs vs. Relaunch vs. Reentry

[djmurdoch]

I am going to speculate that if they don't have enough fuel to make it back to an orbit where the shuttle can retrieve it, then they don't have enough fuel for re-entry either.

It's easier to achieve re-entry than to get back to a low orbit. They just need to make the orbit more eccentric, and it'll graze the atmosphere at perigee. It'll be going way too fast for the shuttle to catch it at that point. Slowing it down safely would take lots of fuel. (The atmosphere will slow it down, but the satellite is not likely to survive the experience!)

Re:Cost of Repairs vs. Relaunch vs. Reentry

[Loki_1929]

That leaves us with repair, the most reasonable option. Send up some guys on the next shuttle mission with Duct Tape (about $1.50 a roll, depending on store and brand).

No, no, no... This is the US government here. Hammers generally run about $50,000 each, a couch runs several hundred thousand dollars, etc. You have to convert to government dollars. Last I checked, the going conversion rate is something like ((N/I) * Pi^8) where N is the normal price, and I is the importance of the item (scale of 1 to 10, duct tape being a 1, nuclear weapon being a 10).

Therefore, that $1.50 per roll duct tape would actually cost about $14,175 US government dollars.

Re:Cost of Repairs vs. Relaunch vs. Reentry

[SgtXaos]

Mod parent up! It is in vogue to hammer NASA everytime anything related to space goes awry, but the reality is that something is wrong with the spacecraft that BOEING built. NASA doesn't own it, doesn't take delivery, doesn't pay money for it, until it is healthy and in the correct orbit.

NASA buys all sorts of hardware from private industry, and federal purchasing regs mandate that the deliverables must satisfy the spec in the purchase order prior to the invoice being paid.
This applies equally to spacecraft as it does to computers or flashlights or anything else.

I imagine if the news media got hold of a story about NASA receiving a new PC from Gateway that had a bad stick of RAM installed, we would have a similar bunch of posts about NASA screwing up.

Besides, space flight is not easy, nor risk free. Just like any other technologically intensive activity, things go wrong. Unfortunately, unlike the everyday foul-ups and equipment failures that happen everywhere, NASA's are shown live on TV.

Re:Cost of Repairs vs. Relaunch vs. Reentry

[Slashamatic]

Normally to get a bird into Geosynch orbit takes a PAM (Payload Assist Module). It is a lot further out. I understand that this sats motor quit someway up so retrieval/repair may be very difficult.

Re:Cost of Repairs vs. Relaunch vs. Reentry

[stuffman64]

Funny, I was actually going to include something to that effect in my original post, but I wanted to get some sleep and I couldn't remember any specific examples (I knew about expensive hammers and toilet seats, but not thier prices). Thanks for clearing this up!

Re:Cost of Repairs vs. Relaunch vs. Reentry

[mpe]

This is the US government here. Hammers generally run about $50,000 each, a couch runs several hundred thousand dollars, etc. You have to convert to government dollars. Last I checked, the going conversion rate is something like ((N/I) * Pi^8) where N is the normal price, and I is the importance of the item (scale of 1 to 10, duct tape being a 1, nuclear weapon being a 10).

Where do you put the cost of black projetcs into the equation?

Re:Cost of Repairs vs. Relaunch vs. Reentry

[Loki_1929]

Where do you put the cost of black projetcs into the equation?

Their cost IS factored in; why do you think we have to convert to government dollars? If it weren't for projects that require millions in funding that can't be named (for legal or other reasons) in public documents, a hammer wouldn't cost $50,000.

For those who are already bored with this (as you know exactly what I'm talking about) you can leave now. For the rest of the class, read on.

Example A:

General Johnny needs to build a large laboratory for studying potential biological weapons for use in the next major war. The problem is, General Johnny knows he'll never get funding for an obviously illegal project. So General Johnny tells everyone he just bought this shiny new hammer for $50,000. Mind you, the hammer cost him about $8, but this now gives him $48,992 to fund his project. Now this is going to be a large lab, so he'll need lots of hammers to build it. General Johnny orders 1,000 hammers, giving him $48,992,000 in undocumented cash to use. He then orders a bunch of other stuff at the same insanely high price and before you know it, General Johnny has the several billion dollars he needs to build the illegal lab.

Example B:

Agent Ricky needs to assassinate the leader of a country that has been naughty. Now, agent Ricky knows this won't look good to ohh... the rest of the world? (ie Geneva Convention) So agent Ricky needs cash fast for his plane ticket, guns, escape route, etc. Lucky for agent Ricky, his boss, the CIA, has a nice big pocket of money that no one knows about. How did they get this money? Well, aside from drug and arms sales (from drugs/guns confiscated around the world), they've been buying toilet seats for $75,000 each for years. Why hasn't anyone said anything? Well, for one thing, who cares how much the CIA spent on toilet seats in fiscal year 1984? Also, for those who do know about it, it's more or less a big joke. "Hey, did you guys see that the government is spending like $75,000 for a toilet seat? Ha Ha Ha."

As a side note, Agent Ricky's mission was an utter failure (would you expect anything less of the CIA?) and he was arrested the second he stepped off the plane, then laughed at by the guards of his new home - a big, smelly prison.

The real reason...

[SHiFTY1000]

NASA Engineer: I dont understand... I only shoved 3 gallons in that tank, it should be fine! Whats that? Litres you say? Oh not again...

Re:The real reason...

[(outer-limits)]

When is the US going to stop thinking that using the metric system is just a commie plot and any congressman who supports it is going to be voted out. ALL the industries have to work with it, they buy and sell parts using it, the rest of the world can make a decision to use it, just f**ing do it. The commies didn't even invent it, it was napoleon, and he was as good a dictator and high achiever as you are ever going to meet.

Re:The real reason...

[rjw57]

Indeed, when will everyone realise that it should be dd/mm/yyyy, 'litres' not 'liters', 'metres' not 'meters', 'English' and 'American' not 'British English' and 'US English', 'British' != 'English', '...ise' not '...ize', and.. oh whats the use.

In actual fact, similar things have been going on this side of the pond with market traders going all the way to the European court to claim the right to sell produce in pounds and ounces rather than kilogrammes and grammes.

I have yet to see one person who can sensibly claim Imperial measurements ('English' measurments to our US bretherin) are useful for technical specs and calculations.

Re:The real reason...

[GigsVT]

How is it pronounced? Lee-ter

Your spelling would have it pronounced Lee-tree.

Besides, it's not the first time a spelling morphed when a word was adapted from another country, I don't see why anyone would lose sleep over it.

Re:The real reason...

[Anonymous Coward]

Your spelling would have it pronounced Lee-tree.

This may have escaped you, but English is not a phonetic language. This is dismal for someone who promotes a 'poetry contest'.

Re:The real reason...

[Anonymous Coward]

And you would have it pronounced 'lighter'.

Re:The real reason...

[stud9920]

The commies didn't even invent it, it was napoleon

In fact IIRC it was during the french revolution, early 1790s, and it would probably have occured anyway if the monarchy had survived.

Re:The real reason...

[Kirkoff]

I have yet to see one person who can sensibly claim Imperial measurements ('English' measurments to our US bretherin) are useful for technical specs and calculations.

That's just it, most industries do use the metric system. The thing is that in people's day-to-day lives, the customary system is easier. (No, I don't know why base-10 is so hard for measurements) Personally, I find it easier to say I'm 6'1" rather than 185cm. I'm sure it's mostly an issue of culture, but 185cm seems cumbersome to me. As to miles vs. kilometers, well, there is just a lot of inertia here. For some reason though, liters are better accepted, as long as you don't sell it to me in gas. :P

I think that the metric system will take over in the US, just slowly. It'll have to start with things like they did in some county in Kentucky. All the signs there said "Foosville 100km(60mi)." I don't remember which county it was in, but I thought it was a great idea. My cousin told me that they just stopped with that small area unfortunatly. I think Loudoun county, Va was supposed to have switched over the the metric system in like 1996, but they didn't. Aperently, it's not the first missed deadline on it either.

And anyways, how else was I supposed to bother my physics teacher? Giving velocity in furlongs per fortnight is fun!

Re:The real reason...

[rjw57]

Your spelling would have it pronounced Lee-tree.

The same way 'centre' is pronounced 'cen-tree'? Of course this is just the way that the UK, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, France, etc. spell it and since the USA spells it wrong, they must be right :) -- Note this is not an anti-US flame, just that English is a little bit decoupled in the spelling vs. pronounciation dept.

Re:The real reason...

[mpe]

I have yet to see one person who can sensibly claim Imperial measurements ('English' measurments to our US bretherin) are useful for technical specs and calculations.

Also remember that the American "English" scales of measurement are not the same as Imperial measures. Especially when it comes to volumes, such as "pints", "gallons", etc.
As for technical measures in the 1940's both the Imperial and the English inch were redefined to be exactly 25.4 mm. Because the differences were causing problems in the manufacture of precision parts for weapons systems.

Re:The real reason...

[GigsVT]

I don't think it has to be an issue of wrong and right. I mean it just depends on the target audience, and the differences are so trivial, that either side can figure out the other's spelling anyway.

Re:The real reason...

[bluGill]

When are the rest of you going to realise that metric is just anouther arbitary measurement system. the only advantage of metric is it is used by most of the world (which is a LARGE advantage, don't get me wrong).

Metric is not perfect. 1/3rd for instance doesn't work out easially in metric. Nor does 1/4th. In some areas both are commonly needed.

In the end though all the really matters is that whatever arbitary measurements you use, everyone ends up with something that fits.

Most amercians can work with metric. I do it when I need to, but quite honestly I see no reason to switch. I'm comfortable working in both systems. Even if we did switch overnight, I have a lot of old equipment that I like to keep running (old iron is a hobby, of mine), so I will still be using the old system, and I would hope others do.

Thus, I would argue that americans have an advantage because we are used to more systems, and can use whichever one is best.

Yoyo ?

[Taco Cowboy]

Waitaminit ... satellite _stranded_ ?!

You mean like a "yoyo" ?

Give it a break!

[leonbrooks]

a fuel tank is leaking and it cannot reach its orbit.

What do you expect? Everyone has to take a leak a sometime...

Older rescue

[Account 10]

This is the story of the successful rescue of an Intelsat after it failed to seperate from its rocket and got stuck in a low orbit. It took 6 tries over 3 days for the shuttle crew to catch it.

The TDRS satellite has a similar mass to the Intelsat

Re:Older rescue

[jerryasher]

Yes, and depending on which web site you visit, the shuttle has launched up to seven of these tdrs satellites (but I don't know if any were of the same weight as this one). If it can safely launch one, then I have to assume that (ignoring fuel leaks) it can land with one.

Re:Older rescue

[hangdog]

Assuming that it can land with one just because it lauched with one? The shuttle's launch is assisted by 2 booters and 1 main fuel booster.

The landing is a "soft" glide down to earth.

I think it IS safe to assume that the satellite could fit in the cargo area...assuming they can retract any commucation antena they had to extend.

Re:Older rescue

[nucal]

STS-49 lifted off flawlessly from Cape Canaveral on Thursday, May 7, 1992. INTELSAT controllers began to maneuver the errant satellite into a lower orbit and reduce its rate of spin from 9 rotations per second to 0.6 rotations per second.

It can't be easy to catch a satellite that is rotating in a low-G environment - even 1/2 a rotation/second is pretty freaking fast.

Re:Older rescue

[snake_dad]

Assuming that it can land with one just because it lauched with one?

Yes. In case of a failed launch (like engine failure) the shuttle has the option to return to earth for a landing. Either at the launch site or in Spain or some other location. AFAIK ejecting the payload is not a part of that procedure.

Re:Older rescue

[jerryasher]

It's late my time, so I'm not sure what you're getting at.

My point is that they have launched seven TDRS satellites in the past, and so for safety's sake each of those launches, must have had various mission abort strategies that entail a landing with a TDRS on board. Emergency landings at KSC, at Easter Island, Edwards, White Sands, etc. And I bet there are abort to orbit scenarios in which they still can't ditch their payload and so have to land with it eventually.

So yeah, I am betting that if they can launch with one then they can configure a mission in which they can land with one. Land that is, assuming there are no dangerous fuel leaks.

Re:Older rescue

[Tom Rothamel]

I think it IS safe to assume that the satellite could fit in the cargo area...assuming they can retract any commucation antena they had to extend.

I'm not so sure about that. This TDRS is a newer models, not like the ones launched by the shuttle.

It also is probably pointless to do a rescue mission. IIRC, NASA contracted to take delivery on orbit, so if the mission fails, it doesn't cost taxpayers anything. Why risk a rescue mission when they can just wait for a new satellite to be built?

Re:Older rescue

[bluGill]

True, but it might be cheaper for Boeing to get it rescued. Assuming Nasa is already sending up a shuttle (which they do from time to time), that will come back with an empty payload bay (which happens often). Then the extra cost to retrieve a satalite is essentially nil above the costs nasa already has to spend. So Nasa could contract out retrivial of this satalite for some amount of dollars, which is mostly profit.

Obvously, sending up a shuttle to only get the satalite is not worth the cost. however that is not the case.

So the real question is: Can Boeing make a new satalite for less than what nasa wants charge to retrive it. When calculating this out, don't forget any possibal engineering value in studing the retrived statlite to see why it failed. (and thus do a redesign so the next one won't fail that way)

Shuttle designed for it

[ZigMonty]

I'm sure it is more dangerous to land a shuttle with all that extra weight in the cargo area.

The shuttle is designed to be able to bring satellites back. From the link:

The space shuttle is the world's first reusable spacecraft, and the first spacecraft in history that can carry large satellites both to and from orbit.

Now, whether it's more dangerous to bring back a satellite leaking fuel is another matter! I figure that they'd drain it before bringing it back though.

Wording

[O2n]

From the article:
to an orbit that keeps it in the same position above the Earth's equator.

It's called geostationary orbit... duh.
The term has been around for more than 40 years, along with actual satellites in that kind of orbit.

I wonder how stupid the target audience for bbc news is. I mean, in a couple of years they'll call the traffic lights "color encoded traffic regulator at street crossings"? :)

leaky fuel tank

[56ker]

Could it be all those bits and bobs of junk orbiting the earth finally have caused a major satellite to malfunction? I mean they've been saying for years that eventually all the little bits could cause loads of satellites to break up - but nobody believed them.

"most sophisticated"

[ZaneMcAuley]

Oh yeah it sure is, pity its not the "most reliable". How is it the "most sophisticated" if it DOESNT DO ANYTHING EXCEPT FLOAT.

NASA releases yet another floater :D

The end is nigh

[raelitycheckbounced]

NASA aren't alone in their satellite loss...

Saturday, 21 February, 1998, 13:11 GMT Japan fails to put communications satellite into orbit

A Japanese communications satellite worth many millions of dollars has been launched into space but failed to go into its intended orbit because of engine trouble.

A Japanese space agency spokesman said it was not known exactly where the satellite was, or whether it would be able to perform any of its planned tasks.

Correspondents describe the problem as the latest in a series of embarrassments for the Japanese space programme.

From the newsroom of the BBC World Service

Its an alien conspiracy to destroy what they percieve as our orbital defense network. The end is nigh!!!!

Who is going to build....

[Anonymous Coward]

Who is going to build the first satellite recovery robot/probe? As more satellites are being launched and seem to fail in orbit ,and/or die of age. Why not make a recovery vehicle that could park satellites in a low orbit and prepare them for service by a shuttle or robot. Obsolete satellites could be prepared for re-entry.

I guess engery is the only limiting factor...

Re:Who is going to build....

[geoswan]

Who is going to build the first satellite recovery robot/probe? As more satellites are being launched and seem to fail in orbit ,and/or die of age. Why not make a recovery vehicle that could park satellites in a low orbit and prepare them for service by a shuttle or robot. Obsolete satellites could be prepared for re-entry.

I guess engery is the only limiting factor...

I should have read this whole thread first. I made the same suggestion. After all, they supplied Mir by robot, and they only crashed one of those robots once.

If energy is a problem, and time is not, could this robot use a light sail? How far are we from that? What prevents using these robot tugs to take satellites out to geo-synchronous orbit in the first place?

Another article in this thread said that NASA wasn't allowed, to carry any liquid fuel rocket in the shuttles, after the Challenger disaster. (Wrong solution to the wrong problem maybe?) So what powers the maneuvering jets of current birds? I read something in another thread recently about "cold-gas jets".

Re:Who is going to build....

[DomoKun]

The energy problem is a tough one. And if satilites keep getting cheaper and smaller, we may never see satelite recovery crafts, just more space junk.

Re:Who is going to build....

[Anonymous Coward]

problem is space junk is getting to be a real issue even now. i can envision an actually profitable business venture in developing and operating a space salvage and disposal system...

Re:Who is going to build....

[mpe]

problem is space junk is getting to be a real issue even now. i can envision an actually profitable business venture in developing and operating a space salvage and disposal system..

So we now need the Earth orbiting equivalent of a garbage truck as well as a tow truck.

liquid fuel?

[stinky wizzleteats]

Leaking fuel? As in liquid fuel? Since when can the shuttle carry up payloads with liquid fuel?

Following the Challenger explosion, one of the safety regs imposed was that no payload could have liquid fuel. This required the Galileo team to adjust the launch trajectory for the spacecraft to include 2 slingshots around the inner solar system.

Re:liquid fuel?

[mobets]

Maybe they didn't put it up w/ the shuttle. Lots of satalites go up on a normal rocket.

Re:liquid fuel?

[bogasity]

TDRS HIJ were designed for launch on an Atlas in order to reduce launch expenses. Also, none of the articles I have read yet have indicated that TDRS I is leaking fuel. There are many other failures that could lead to a lack of fuel flow from one the tanks - a pinched line, failure of the pressurization system, bad bladder inside the tank, etc. If you read Boeing's statement, they have confidence they can resolve the problem. After seeing Hughes (now Boeing) engineers slingshot a satellite around the moon a couple times to get it to a geosync orbit, I wouldn't underestimate what they can do in this case.

Re:liquid fuel?

[Rasta Prefect]

Leaking fuel? As in liquid fuel? Since when can the shuttle carry up payloads with liquid fuel?

Actually, only the slashdot summary mentions a fuel leak. The article only says that there was a fuel tank malfunction - which could just as easily be a screwed up valve or clogged pipe.

Re:liquid fuel?

[Anonymous Coward]

No the regs are not relaxed. The shuttle is a poor, old-fashioned and costly technology for launching satelites. Ariane (avanced technology but suffering from a somewhat shaky start) will steal this market from the shuttle for sure.

Re:liquid fuel?

[stinky wizzleteats]

Yeah, the Ariane is really great, but make sure you've got the right firmware on it.

As old as the Shuttle is, the fact remains that it is without peer because nothing else can service an already orbiting sattelite.

I don't mean to be U.S. centric about this, but until you've played golf on the Moon, you just aren't in the club. Sorry.

Re:liquid fuel?

[Gogo Dodo]

You need to read the article a little closer. It was launched with an Atlas rocket.

Re:liquid fuel?

[corey_lawson]

Doesn't the space shuttle itself carry a good load of hydrazine (a liquid fuel)?

when you hear the phrase

[56ker]

"newest and most sophisticated" you just *know* what's coming next must be bad news!

I must be tired

[Rhinobird]

I must be tired, when i first read the second link, I read it as TRDS-1...and I thought, "Well, that's a stupid name for a satellite. It should be TRDS-2, cause nubmer one is something else...". Anyway, I've been up all night long it's 6:30 in the AM and my shift is almost over.

Re:I must be tired

[Anonymous Coward]

huh? wtf are you talking about?

Re:I must be tired

[Anonymous Coward]

>I must be tired

Yeah, you must be.

Look man, it's simple. The thing is called TURDS-I because it's the first orbiting TURD. When NASA poops out another it will be called TURD-II. These are the most expensive turds in history so speak of them with respect! The eurotrash are laughing at our American turds and claim to have better TURD technology, but fuck them!

Go home, jerk off and get some sleep.

Re:Better story

[Anonymous Coward]

TREEEEE-MENDOUS Story!! You sir deserve an Oskar. And a grammy.

In other news...

[Stiletto]

In other news, Pioneer 10 is still going strong. It seems the more complicated and sophisticated we try to make things, the more prone to breakage they become.

Re:In other news...

[Pussy Is Money]

If this is the kind of retarded farmboi common sense (spit! ka-chunk) wisdom that passes for insight nowadays then I'm not surprised present day tech is so prone to breakage.

Pioneer 10 cost $75 million to build which translates into approx. $350 million current day prices. The TRDS project has $825 allotted for 3 sattelites that are far, far more capable than Pioneer 10, and have to fulfill a far, far more complicated role.

Pioneer 10 might have been good, but it was also expensive, and took over three years to build. Good, fast, cheap. Pick two.

Shuttle rescue unlikely

[Jonathan McDowell]

As I pointed out in my newsletter JSR on Friday (before the BBC story, I note :-)) it's unlikely that they will try a Shuttle rescue because it would take more fuel to get down to a Shuttle orbit than to get up to GEO, given where it is now. All the previous rescues involved satellites in much lower orbit. Oh, and as a side note to the poster who commented on the post-Challenger regulations, it's only liquid hydrogen that the Shuttle won't deal with in the payload bay, there have been plenty of payloads since then which have had hydrazine and nitrogen tetroxide on board, which is what the BSS-601 satellites like TDRS-I carry.

I draw slashdot's attention to the fact that the story was originally broken by Keith Cowing's excellent NASA Watch web page. I expect that they will get the bird to GEO, although Space Command doesn't seem to have issued any new orbital data for it in several days.

Re:Shuttle rescue unlikely

[Buran]

From http://www.ksc.nasa.gov/shuttle/resources/orbiters /discovery.html:

"Two orbiters, Challenger and Discovery , were modified at KSC to enable them to carry the Centaur upper stage in the payload bay. These modifications included extra plumbing to load and vent Centaur's cryogenic (L02/LH2) propellants (other IUS/PAM upper stages use solid propellants), and controls on the aft flight deck for loading and monitoring the Centaur stage. No Centaur flight was ever flown and after the loss of Challenger it was decided that the risk was too great to launch a shuttle with a fueled Centaur upper stage in the payload bay."

I think the modifications have since been removed. We now have no shuttle capable of launching a Centaur upper stage -- the other was destroyed. I have often wondered if this really is all that dangerous, considering the fact that the hydrazine maneuvering fuel used on many satellites the Shuttle launches is hypergolic, meaning it will ignite on contact with its oxidizer, no spark needed. Hydrogen and oxygen, on the other hand, require an ignition system.

Re:Shuttle rescue unlikely

[mpe]

I have often wondered if this really is all that dangerous, considering the fact that the hydrazine maneuvering fuel used on many satellites the Shuttle launches is hypergolic, meaning it will ignite on contact with its oxidizer, no spark needed. Hydrogen and oxygen, on the other hand, require an ignition system.

The shuttle has both kinds of fuel on board anyway. The OMS and RCS are hypergolic fuel and the main power system uses hydrogen and oxygen fuel cells (providing drinking water as a byproduct). Quite possibly there is more hydrogen and oxygen onboard the shuttle than there was on board the Apollo service module.

PC-Sat

[n2wzb]

Made by the US Naval Academy. Launch was at 0240z 30 Sept 2001 http://www.ew.usna.edu/~bruninga/pcsat.html

OT: Your Website

[Anonymous Coward]

Hi gir, I like your website!

I spent a mindless hour surfing around from your links. I'd drop the bit about 'created in vi' though. You can be a little too nerdy y'know ;)

Re:OT: Your Website

[gir]

no such thing as too nerdy!!!

Re:OT: Your Website

[Rhinobird]

What the hell...Is that this still up? Gonna have to update it if people are gonna visit...

Re:Better story

[Anonymous Coward]

Dear AC,

Please ignore the other comments posted in reply to your pathetic attempt at a story (assuming you are the author in the first place).

Your writing is mindless and derivative of the sort of 'hip' crap that gets submitted to me by the truckload all the time (I'm an editor for a major publishing house).

Study *English* and get some life experience and then write, or else give up and do something more productive.

The enthusiastic acclimations you have received in response to your crappy post dismay me enormously.

Troll!

[Anonymous Coward]

Way to go Slashdot moderators!!

This is a hostile and vicious troll against the Slashdot transgendered community.

Keep it up!

LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL you assholes!

Use it as a test

[Lysander Luddite]

Maybe the military can use it as target practice for their anti-satellite tests. They've done so well with those rigged tests maybe a mislaunched satellite would resemble something launched from a "rogue nation"

I didn't think it was funny either.

Re:Better story

[Anonymous Coward]

they were buddies in Vietnam. ... The supervisors sits down on his one leg

Jeez, ever here the expression 'corny' ?

Score -1 Nitpicking.. Re:The real reason...

[netsharc]

Well it would have worked only if a gallon is less than a litre(liter). But a gallon is 4.5 liters, so the engineer had actually put more fuel than needed. Altough that would explain it being overweight and not managing to reach its destination.

Slingshot link

[djmurdoch]

Bogasity's link was a press release from before the attempted slingshot; it worked.

Blame the guy they appointed President.

[fmaxwell]

I work in the aerospace industry. It's not NASA that needs convincing. It's President Bush. He has cut funding severely on some NASA programs like the International Space Station, where that the U.S. will not even be keeping its promises to its partners. The Pluto-Kuiper Express and Solar Probe were both cancelled due to his budget. He cut $207 million from the overall budget of NASA's Earth Science program, which uses satellites to study the effects of natural and human-induced changes on the global environment. (I worked on one of the satellites associated with that program and the satellite is now mothballed at my company.)

If you want rockets to be used in weapons, elect a Republican President. If you want rockets to be used for space exploration and science, elect a Democrat. Just look at history. It was Kennedy who saw space exploration as a source of national pride. He pushed the Apollo program. It was Nixon who cut Apollo short by three landings and basically gutted NASA. Nixon ignored the recommendatons for Mars explorations made by his own task force. He only agreed to fund the development of the space shuttle because it would "bring the price of going into space down".

Reagan pushed NASA and the shuttle into ever-increasing military roles, launching military satellites and contributing to the "Star Wars" efforts. In addition, the Reagan administration directed NASA to cancel one of its ongoing space science missions (the the International Solar Polar mission), and seriously considered terminating the entire solar system exploration program and transferring the Jet Propulsion Laboratory to some other government agency.

Of course, when the main thrust of an administration is tax cuts for the wealthy, it's not surprising when funding for NASA suffers.

Re:Blame the guy they appointed President.

[GigsVT]

Of course, if you want freedom, and real development in space technology in the private sector, elect a Libertarian.

Re:Blame the guy they appointed President.

[fmaxwell]

Of course, if you want freedom, and real development in space technology in the private sector, elect a Libertarian.

While I like much of the Libertarian platform, this is a really good example of why it doesn't work for everything. The private sector simply won't pony-up billions of dollars for pure science, space research.

Another example that I use with a Libertarian friend of mine is the privatization of all charity. Were that to happen, there would be a tremendous amount of money given to organizations working for the good of cute, furry mammals and babies. Those those working for less popular causes would be devastated. The average taxpayer simply would not be willing, or able, to evaluate all of the places that his/her donation could go and would, in the end, pick one or two favorite causes. And protecting the habitat of some kind of sea slug, while important, is unlikely to be in the top 10 for most people.

Re:Blame the guy they appointed President.

[GigsVT]

The average taxpayer simply would not be willing, or able, to evaluate all of the places that his/her donation could go and would, in the end, pick one or two favorite causes

I don't like you or the government assuming that I am incapable of allocating my own money.

To assume that is basically arguing for socialism.

Re:Blame the guy they appointed President.

[fmaxwell]

I don't like you or the government assuming that I am incapable of allocating my own money.

I did not say that you were "incapable" of it. I said that the vast majority of taxpayers would fund programs near and dear to their hearts and that, as a result, less compelling, but equally important programs would be harmed.

Instead of expressing your offense, how about countering my logic?

To assume that is basically arguing for socialism.

No, it's arguing for the form of government we have now where our elected representatives are responsible for studying and understanding the thousands of programs out there and apportioning money appropriately.

Re:Blame the guy they appointed President.

[GigsVT]

but equally important programs would be harmed.

Well, my counter-argument to that would be that the program is not as important, if people really don't care about it.

Part of the problem with our current government spending is pork barrel programs that only benefit a tiny subset of the population in the reps district. This wouldn't happen anymore, and elected reps couldn't use such de facto bribes to get reelected.

If the cause was important enough, a small minority has a way of being vocal, that would draw attention to them nationally, and get them funding.

Re:Blame the guy they appointed President.

[Anonymous Coward]

Who wanted a permanent space station? Oh yeah, that was Reagan. Back then its name was Freedom, and the goals were far more ambitious. How convenient that you forgot that little factoid. Clinton was ready to kill the station when he was on the primary campaign trail in 92 until he had Gore on his team.

That being said, I work in the industry as well, and am continually frustrated by how much of NASAs money the ISS and Shuttle waste each year. These programs tie up well over 80% of the budget at the expense of basic research.

Re:Blame the guy they appointed President.

[Anonymous Coward]

The problem with Libertarianism is that people are stupid. Fewer than 15% of the populace can comprehend basic causal relationships... and this is in a relatively "educated" society. The popularity of socalist ideas is exhibit A.

Re:Blame the guy they appointed President.

[fmaxwell]

Well, my counter-argument to that would be that the program is not as important, if people really don't care about it.

So any science or social program too complex for the public at large to understand or appreciate is unimportant?

If the cause was important enough, a small minority has a way of being vocal, that would draw attention to them nationally, and get them funding.

Many important causes with vocal supporters are underfunded. Sometimes, a cause gets funding because government staffers devote thousands of hours of research into it, understanding the nuances and balancing it against other programs. Voters don't have that kind of time. Time that voters spend studying these causes is time that they are not earning money to donate to these causes.

Have you ever gone through the budget and looked at all of the programs that are funded? Assuming that you felt that even 50% of the programs were worthwhile, would you be willing to spend the man-weeks it would take to write a check to each one of them?

Libertarians seem far too comfortable in the idea of running a grand social experiment to test their theories about human behavior. An experiment, that, if it failed, would be disastrous.

Re:Blame the guy they appointed President.

[fmaxwell]

The problem with Libertarianism is that people are stupid.

That's the first problem.

The second problem is that people are greedy. Libertarians claim that, if taxes are abolished, people would take all of the money they now pay in taxes and donate it to worthy causes. If you eliminated taxes today, people would spend the money on nicer cars, new clothes, lottery tickets, vacations, consumer electronics, and so forth. When Bill Gates donates money to causes, it doesn't have any impact on his standard of living. But to expect a family of four living on a $40K income to do so is, at best, naive.

I can see it now:

Honey? I know that we've racked up $7,000 in debt on our credit cards, but I was thinking, shouldn't we donate, say, $500 to a study on the effects of non-indigenous migratory birds on native plant species?

Re:Blame the guy they appointed President.

[fmaxwell]

Who wanted a permanent space station? Oh yeah, that was Reagan.

Reagan wanted to launch a major space project shortly before the elections, since it would create jobs in important states such as California, Texas and Florida. The scheduled funding for the project was such that the lion's share of it would be borne by adminstrations that followed Reagan's. The Station's long term funding plan called for $0.235 billion in Fiscal 1985, $0.335 billion in 1986, about $1.2 billion in 1987, and about $2 billion per year in 1988-91 (all figures in 1984 dollars). NASA expected to spend an additional $16 billion by 2002 to add a space tug for missions to geostationary orbit and the Moon.

What Reagan approved was a program that would make him popular in key states while shouldering his successors with the burden of paying for it. He cut taxes and then approved a program that would have to be funded under other administrations. What a bold visionary he was.

Clinton was ready to kill the station when he was on the primary campaign trail in 92 until he had Gore on his team.

But he did not kill it. For all we know, Nixon may have been "ready to" fund a mission to Mars, but he didn't do it.

But think about why Clinton might have wanted to kill it. Reagan/Bush left him with a struggling economy, reduced tax base, and an ill-conceived program that was ballooning in cost.

That being said, I work in the industry as well, and am continually frustrated by how much of NASAs money the ISS and Shuttle waste each year. These programs tie up well over 80% of the budget at the expense of basic research.

Thank you for proving my point. Nixon approved the shuttle program and Reagan, as you pointed out, gave the green light to what has been scaled back to become the ISS. If you want money for basic space research, elect a Democrat as President.

Re:Blame the guy they appointed President.

[GigsVT]

We believe that constant tinkering in a free market is unnecessary. If these social programs are important, then there will be a market demand for the services they provide. The more important a program is, the more demand there will be for the service, and the more people will pay for said service.

There are a few exceptions to this rule, but I'd say 99% of it the free market can take care of.

Besides, you seem to have way too much faith in your legislators. They don't have staffers doing research into anything except getting reelected. They don't give a fuck about anything but that.

Re:Blame the guy they appointed President.

[Anonymous Coward]

Okay, I will do as you say and blame Bush for this failure.

In fact, I will go one step better and blame Clinton for the much more expensive failures in 1999 of the Mars Climate Orbiter, Mars Polar Lander, and Deep Space 2.

Re:Blame the guy they appointed President.

[Anonymous Coward]

Oops, did I say much more expensive? I meant much less expensive.

But I'll also add the cancelling of the SSC in 1993 to the list of science budget grievances. It probably deserved to die but I'm in a complaining mood today.

Re:Blame the guy they appointed President.

[fmaxwell]

We believe that constant tinkering in a free market is unnecessary.

On that, we will have to disagree. Capitalism insures that those with money get what they want. If you are a poor, uneducated, widow, that can't afford enough food, the "free market" does little for you.

If these social programs are important, then there will be a market demand for the services they provide.

So people who can't afford home heating oil will pay the cost of a program to give them money to buy home heating oil? Is that a Libertarian version of perpetual motion?

There are a few exceptions to this rule

Like pure research, space exploration, or charity. Anything that's unlikely to lead to someone getting rich in the near future is an exception.

Want to see the free market and how it applies to charity? Look at the response to September 11. If you lost your spouse to that act of terrorism, your family would have received huge sums of money and aid from charitable organizations. If, on the other hand, your spouse was killed in a traffic accident, you'd receive almost nothing from charities. (Note: I realize that money does not, for normal people, compensate them for the death of a loved one.)

Does the woman who lost her husband due to a traffic accident have less need than the woman whose husband was killed in the World Trade Center? Of course not, yet the free market compensated the latter (financially) to a much greater degree.

They don't have staffers doing research into anything except getting reelected. They don't give a fuck about anything but that.

If that were the case, any legislator that was not running for reelection would simple lay off their staffers, kick back, and flip coins to decide their votes. While there are some legislators that fit your gloomy picture of the world (Fritz Hollings comes to mind), I think that there is an even greater number of them that are trying to make this country a better place.
Almost any member of Congress could quit, form a law practice or become a corporate officer and get more money, less public scrutiny, and a less demanding schedule, so there has to be some reward other than simply keeping the job.

Re:Blame the guy they appointed President.

[fmaxwell]

I'm not saying you should blame Bush for the failure of this mission -- I was answering the poster that said "they shoulda been buildin moonbase by now"[sic]. I said that you should elect a Democrat if you want funding for space exploration.

That said, space exploration is a risky venture. Simply getting funding does not guarantee success.

Re:Blame the guy they appointed President.

[GigsVT]

so there has to be some reward other than simply keeping the job.

Power, kickbacks and bribes.
That's also the motivating factor of the "last-term" legislator.

So people who can't afford home heating oil will pay the cost of a program to give them money to buy home heating oil?

No, they will get a job and contribute something useful to society like everyone else has to do.

If they can't, then it is up to their community and family to support them. It doesn't justify stealing my money, and leaving me no recourse.

I may well end up in such a situation at some point in my life. If that happens, I wouldn't expect big brother government to steal hard working people's money to support me. That's just irrational.

Re:Blame the guy they appointed President.

[pls]

> It was Kennedy who saw space exploration as a source of national pride. He pushed the Apollo program.

It's interesting you picked this example. I think that, more than any other human being, Kennedy is responsible for our ABSENCE of presence in space.

When Kennedy came to office, the space program was operating under Werner von Braun's plan, which was
1. Build a reusable surface to low Earth orbit shuttle (all stages were reusable).
2. Using that, build a permanent manned orbiting station.
3. Using that, build in orbit a lunar shuttle that travels between Earth and lunar orbit.
4. After observational missions, the shuttle carries a lunar orbit to lunar surface vehicle.

This was projected to get us to the moon in the late 70s, but with the road paved, developed, and settled all the way.

This wasn't good enough for Kennedy. He sold the future for the sake of getting there first and substituted the Apollo program, and dead-end effort with no purpose beyond stepping on the moon once. The Apollo program was doomed by design.

By the way, in the American system of government, the President does not decide what gets funded or not. That decision is made by the Congress, and both the House and the Senate were run by the Democrat Party during the entire length of Nixon's term in office.

++PLS

Re:Blame the guy they appointed President.

[QuantumG]

Fewer than 15% of the populace can comprehend basic causal relationships

Sounds like someone just got dumped.

Re:Blame the guy they appointed President.

[fmaxwell]

No, they will get a job and contribute something useful to society like everyone else has to do.

And what kind of job would you recommend that an 85 year old, mentally and physically frail widow apply for?

If they can't, then it is up to their community and family to support them.

Many of the people that need these programs live in communities where the average wage is below the poverty level. The idea of government programs is to assure that everyone is treated equally -- so that people living in poor neighborhoods don't freeze to death while those living in wealthy ones are well cared for. It is also to make sure that even unpopular people aren't left to die.

It doesn't justify stealing my money, and leaving me no recourse.

It isn't "stealing" even if you call it that. The federal government has the right to collect taxes and that right has been upheld by the courts in hundreds of cases.

Secondly, if you don't want to do your duty as a U.S. citizen, you do have recourse: You can emigrate to a country that has no income taxes.

If that happens, I wouldn't expect big brother government to steal hard working people's money to support me.

Just how hard do you work, Jason? Running a scam "poetry contest" (see this link for more info) is not my definition of "hard work." Given the nature of the "poetry contest" you run, you have a lot of gall accusing the government of stealing because they tax your ill-gotten gains. In this case, perhaps they could be considered partners in crime.

Re:Blame the guy they appointed President.

[fmaxwell]

By the way, in the American system of government, the President does not decide what gets funded or not. That decision is made by the Congress, and both the House and the Senate were run by the Democrat Party during the entire length of Nixon's term in office.

Don't be naive. The President has the power of the pen and can put the screws to Congress until they present him with the budget he wants.

Re:Blame the guy they appointed President.

[GigsVT]

Just how hard do you work, Jason? Running a scam "poetry contest" (see this link for more info) is not my definition of "hard work." Given the nature of the "poetry contest" you run, you have a lot of gall accusing the government of stealing because they tax your ill-gotten gains. In this case, perhaps they could be considered partners in crime.

The poetry contest is not my job, it is only a hobby. I work 40 hours a week at a real job. The poetry contest I take entries for is not a scam. It could be called a vanity press, but they do not defraud people. If people want to pay to see their poetry in a book, we give them that opportunity. If someone sends me a question about the contest, I answer honestly.

The accusations that windpub.org makes that this sort of contest cares little about literature is a weak argument. Is MTV a scam because it cares little about music? Is McDonalds a scam because it cares little about nutrition?

Just so you know, the front page contest is not something I plan to always be the central feature of my page. I plan to eventually expand into a writer's resource, to help writers get published.

I want you to know that calling the contest a scam is potentially libellous. Cader Publishing, and myself have had a business relationship since 1996, and I rarely hear from people who think they were scammed in any way. The people I get that sort of thing from are the people that sent their poetry in, and subsequently found the alarmist windpub.org.

At that point I tell them that nothing is final until they return a signed entry form (which we send them after we get their poetry) and I assure them that no purchase is required to enter the contest, and that is not a lie. I tell them to email me if they have any other questions or concerns.

So you tell me, where is the fraud? Where does Cader take people's money and not deliver a satisfactory product?

Note that I can't speak directly for Cader, as I am not their employee, nor does any of this apply to any other site, such as www.poetry.com, of which I have seen some horrible anecdotes from people that paid for their "conferences".

Re:Blame the guy they appointed President.

[fmaxwell]

The poetry contest I take entries for is not a scam. It could be called a vanity press, but they do not defraud people. If people want to pay to see their poetry in a book, we give them that opportunity.

Calling a vanity press operation a "poetry contest" is a scam. Telling people that their poetry qualifies them as a finalist in a contest when no judgement of the work has taken place is a scam.

The accusations that windpub.org makes that this sort of contest cares little about literature is a weak argument. Is MTV a scam because it cares little about music? Is McDonalds a scam because it cares little about nutrition?

MTV does not purport to judge the quality of the music their channel plays. McDonalds makes no claim to be providing food of the highest nutritional value. McDonalds also tells customers what the cost of their product is up front. Neither McDonalds nor MTV try to convince people that they have won a contest in order to get their money. Sorry, but I just don't buy that analogy.

I want you to know that calling the contest a scam is potentially libellous.

I'll send you my name and address to you via e-mail so that you and/or Cader Publishing can easily take legal action against me if you wish. Just tell me what e-mail address to send it to. I would welcome the opportunity to defend my characterization of the "poetry contest" in a court of law.

If you want to take that route, just get your records in order. I'll subpeona your records relating to the number of "winners", the amount of prize money awarded, the judging process, the number of poems published for which no fee was paid, etc. This could be fun.

Re:Blame the guy they appointed President.

[GigsVT]

I'm glad you responded!

Calling a vanity press operation a "poetry contest" is a scam. Telling people that their poetry qualifies them as a finalist in a contest when no judgement of the work has taken place is a scam.

It is a real contest, with no purchase necessary. If you want to know how I got involved, I entered the contest myself. Back then Cader was offering an affiliate program (back in 1995 before they were popular), and over the next year I developed the web page. They had suggested using print ads to get entries for their program, that's how far back we are talking about.

There is some judgement before people get "qualified for the final round". It may not be as stringent as some would like, but some entries are filtered out before that point.

I would welcome the opportunity to defend my characterization of the "poetry contest" in a court of law.

I'm a Libertarian, that's what started this whole thing. I wouldn't sue you unless it was a serious transgression, involving lies and malice on your part. I actually appreciate it when people like you question my poetry contest. I have nothing to fear from open debate.

The reason I threw that in there is because someone is threatning to sue me for talking about thier company, much the same way you are talking about mine. Just be careful out there.

If you want to take that route, just get your records in order. I'll subpeona your records relating to the number of "winners", the amount of prize money awarded, the judging process, the number of poems published for which no fee was paid, etc. This could be fun.

You would have to do that to Cader Publishing, as I don't touch the entries after they are forwarded to them, I just advertise for them. Most of that information is available on www.cader.com, and I'm sure with a little digging you could contact the previous winners.

Like I said, I have nothing to hide from open discussion.

Re:Blame the guy they appointed President.

[fmaxwell]

There is some judgement before people get "qualified for the final round". It may not be as stringent as some would like, but some entries are filtered out before that point.

If the "poem" shown on windpub.org was judged to be a finalist, then I'd hate to see one that was "filtered out"! That one was scary-bad.

Let's look at a statement from your web page:

We need new and experienced poets and essay writers to feature in our quarterly hardcover books, and Verses, our highly acclaimed literary magazine.

What you need is people to pay you for vanity press services. Your web page makes it sound like you are publishing a for-profit periodical that is seeking material for which there is a market demand.

Like I said, I have nothing to hide from open discussion.

Okay, you asked for it! ;-)

1. What percentage of submitted poems make it to the "finals"? Feel free to estimate if you don't have an exact number.

2. What percentage of the poems are published at the author's expense?

3. By whom is your Verses magazine "highly aclaimed"?

4. Was your web page designed with the intent of making people believe that your business was something other than a vanity press?

5. What are the circulation figures for Verses magazine (newstand, subscription, and complimentary copies)? What does a subscription cost?

Re:Blame the guy they appointed President.

[GigsVT]

What you need is people to pay you for vanity press services. Your web page makes it sound like you are publishing a for-profit periodical that is seeking material for which there is a market demand.

I'll try to change it to reflect more closely it is what we do. Really. I hate scam artists, and I really take it personally if someone thinks I am one.


1. What percentage of submitted poems make it to the "finals"? Feel free to estimate if you don't have an exact number.


I have absolutely no clue. My job boils down to opening the entries, filtering out non-conforming entries that did not follow the contest rules, or entries that are obviously pranks, and forwarding the rest to Cader. They make all the content decisions.

2. What percentage of the poems are published at the author's expense?

I don't know that exactly, but I can estimate. The anthology has a Part I which contains the contest winners, and a Part 2, containing people who did not win, but who were published because the decided to purchase a copy of the anthology.

I'd say theres about twice as many pages in Part 2 as there is in Part 1. It varies.

3. By whom is your Verses magazine "highly aclaimed"?

Ugh, I think that part is out of date. I will have to update the page accordingly. I'm not sure if Cader still published Verses, I will have to check with them.

4. Was your web page designed with the intent of making people believe that your business was something other than a vanity press?

It is something other than a vanity press. It is a real free poetry contest that people can enter without any obligation to buy anything. When I entered the contest myself, I never felt misled into thinking I had to buy anything to enter the contest, I just returned the entry form, and indicated that I didn't want to buy anything, just like the form said.

It's very much like publisher's clearinghouse sweepsstakes in that regard. As far as I know, the decision to buy something or not has no effect on your chance of being judged as a winner. Judging is based solely on merit.

The only way you can run a free poetry contest is to pay for it somewhere else, and the vanity press aspect is what allows Cader to offer the free contest.

5. What are the circulation figures for Verses magazine (newstand, subscription, and complimentary copies)? What does a subscription cost?

No clue, you would have to ask Cader. Like I said, I will have to ask Cader myself, I don't know if they still do verses. The main thing published is the Anthologies.

I'll email cader today and ask if they still do Verses, and if not, I will update my page.

Can we take this to email? It's not that I mind discussing this in public, but I think the longer this thread gets, the more likely an editor bitchslap, we are pretty far offtopic.

info@poetrycontestonline.com to email me.

Re:Blame the guy they appointed President.

[digitalcowboy]

If you want rockets to be used in weapons, elect a Republican President. If you want rockets to be used for space exploration and science, elect a Democrat.

If you care about actually advancing "space exploration and science" get the feckless retards that work for the government completely out of it! There has never been anything that gubmint does better than the private sector and capitalism.

If it weren't for the government's monopoly of incompetence (created violently at the point of a gun) we would be vacationing on the Moon today.

But I expect this tripe from someone who has nothing better than traffic to bitch about in his journal.

Read a non-government approved book. (I recommend "The Federalist" as a start.) Then you'll be qualified to comment on the pathetic political situation in this country.

Re:Things about me I think you should know

[Anonymous Coward]

was the mom hot? did you fuck her?

OT: Your insanity test

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, I am now offically insane. Good one!

Re:NASSA

[Anonymous Coward]

IHBT:

Rather obvious, but amusing nevertheless.

OT: Your Website

[Anonymous Coward]

Hi Rhinobird,

I'm conducting an unofficial survey of the web site of Slashdot posters. I have visited your site and I can only say: "God, what a wanker!"

Space Tows

[Colz Grigor]

No substance here, only vision (or fluff). If you're looking for a response with meat, skip this one.

Now wouldn't it be neat if the ISS had a few Satellite repair labs and a "space tow trucks" for a team of pilots to leave the ISS and retrieve a satellite for repairs? No more shuttle space walks to repair the Hubble. Instead, the shuttle brings necessary components (fuel, repair parts, etc.) to the ISS so the crew on the ISS can do the work in a less risky environment.

Anyone know if this has ever been NASA's intention?

::Colz Grigor

NASA Sattelite Stranded

[Anonymous Coward]

Worser! Faster! Cheaper!

I used to work for Hughes Space and Communications which was bought by Boeing. Management there was as bad as anywhere but according to my friends who remain,it's gotten worse. If I had to bet on what the root cause of the failure was, I'd be inclined to say it's a fundamental underappreciation of what Engineers do by dillwads with MBA's. I'm telling you folks, these people (MBA management) are fucking dangerous people. They should be sterilized. Just my opinion.

What's wrong with YOU man?

[orius_khan]

MOO, Whats wrong with this picture? http://www.revoh.org:1234/whatswrong

Dude, that picture thing in your sig is FUCKED UP! That's just wrong man. Scared the shit outta me... I think it's funny now, but Jeezus!

Cassini, NASA & plutonium

[VValdo]

Does anyone remember a couple years back when they were launching the Cassini satellite? There was a huge movement to stop the launch because the Cassini had radioactive fuel, which in an accident above the earth (either in the initial launch or the "boomerang" across the planet) could potentially threaten millions of earth lives for centuries to come.

NASA at the time said that there were safety features that made an accident virtually impossible.

I wonder now, considering the fuckups w/the various Mars missions and this $825m satellite, whether they should be allowed to continue using plutonium fuel...

Thoughts? Are these protesters paranoid or do they have a valid point?

W

Re:Cassini, NASA & plutonium

[rarose]

The protesters take the unreasonable position that no risk is acceptable. If they led their lives by this standard they wouldn't get dental X-rays and they wouldn't live anyplace with granite bedrock. (Granite is radioactive in case you didn't know that...)

If Cassini had reentered the odds say that it would have hit the ocean. Plus the plutonium is in ceramic form that likely would make it to the sea floor more or less intact.

Plus you make the fault in assuming that all NASA missions (and all aspects of those missions) are treated the same as regards to safeguards against failure. I'm sure NASA looks at "what's the worst that could happen if this fails" for all the scenarios. Therefore the launch of a relatively small sub-$1bln part of a series mostly-nontoxic satellite didn't receive as much redundency than a multibillion long-term one-of-a-kind toxic subcomponent probe.

Re:Cassini, NASA & plutonium

[Anonymous Coward]

Talk about your offtopic troll, someone mod the parent down.

Re:Cassini, NASA & plutonium

[mpe]

Does anyone remember a couple years back when they were launching the Cassini satellite? There was a huge movement [animatedsoftware.com] to stop the launch because the Cassini had radioactive fuel, which in an accident above the earth (either in the initial launch or the "boomerang" across the planet) could potentially threaten millions of earth lives for centuries to come.

An RTG is not a fission reactor. The chemical properties of the fuel and it's daughter istopes are well known, so it can be encapsulated in a way which is very safe.
If they want to make a fuss about danger from shuttle launches they'd be better off complaining about the SRBs which produce all manner of nasty chemical byproducts.

Re:Cassini, NASA & plutonium

[geekoid]

I've seen the testing of the way the contain the Radioactive material.
They took a rocket, put a container in the nose of the rocket, and then launched it into a wall. (Not a normal wall,obviously.) The cantainer was unscathed.
The prtester have a valid concern, but they shouldn't close there eyes to the saftey precautions and say "its bad, just bad". I would have a lot more respect if they actually evaluated there concerns, instead of a knee jerk, radiaion! it must be stopped.
Of course it was these people that tried to tell me Nuclear Power planets are bad because it sends radiation over the wires.

Your new .sig:

[Anonymous Coward]

(outer-limits), professional cat herder.

Re:Some Suggestions for NASA... & Taco Bell

[Y B MCSE]

This just in.....Taco Bell believes that this will be the one. Free food for all if there target finally gets pasted.

I just washed my car...

[Anonymous Coward]

so of course a TRDS will now hit it!!

As someone...

[ImaLamer]

As someone who thinks the key to space exploration is stepping into space and building a number of craft for a number of things this could have been avoided.

There would be errors with satellites and maybe even the ISS, but shouldn't there be other craft with available resources?

Colonize space, don't just send up a few metal boxes.

I don't get it.

[torpor]

It just looks like a dining room table. What's wrong with it? What am I missing?

Re:I don't get it.

[Anonymous Coward]

You have to look closer, it takes a while to find out (not for people with heartcondition).

Bad luck satellite

[Anonymous Coward]

This satellite was launched as the replacement for the TRDS that was lost in the Challenger explosion (along with the crew.)

It was NOT brought to orbit by the Shuttle, though the Shuttle may be going up there to fix the damn thing.

Here's an idea: Send Tom Cruise up there to fix it. He really wants to go, and this should free up Penelope Cruz for me.

Metric Pints?

[geoswan]

There is a chain of eateries, here in Southern Ontario, called "Elephant and Castle". They are one of several competing chains that try to recreate the experience of visiting an English pub. The decor is meant to be like that found in England, and so is the menu, Bangers and Mash, Steak and Kidney pie, Fish and Chips.

Well, my buddy Gerry and I sat down and each ordered a pint of cider. There was something funny about those pints. The waitress confirmed that the "pints" were actually only 500 millilitres. We got a kick out of ordering another round of "metric pints".

Manned vs Unmanned

[hotsauce]

If the Soviets could make robot frieghters dock with Mir, why can't someone make a robot tug just large enough to fly to high orbit satellites like this, and tow them down to where the shuttle can retrieve them?

We don't want to make robot frieghters because robot heros aren't as sexy as human heros. If we send a cool, new design shuttle up and have humans floating around, we can make a movie out of it. OTOH, who the hell made a movie about the Soviet frieghters? So I say ffft to your frieghters!