Slashdot Mirror
EU Plans to Tax Internet Sales
Arctic Fox writes: "In a bid to help European online sales, the EU is planning to tax online transactions. The article on Yahoo, says that the taxes will apply only to products downloaded from the internet, such as software,videos and music. They may elect to tax physical items (books, hardware,etc) at a later date. American companies will be forced to charge European customers the appropriate VAT in their home country. No details on how this will be enforced."
Two words: off-shore.
If I download software from a UK site I have to pay VAT (17.5% sales tax) - why should it be cheaper to download it from the US.
And before all you anti-state libertarians jump in, remind me - how many millions of Americans have no health insurance because you won't pay for one?
And before all you anti-state libertarians jump in, remind me - how many millions of Americans have no health insurance because you won't pay for one?
I got a job and great health insurance.. arguably better then yours ya damn redcoat! for those who dunt have it.. geta frickin job!
So, I found a map, located the depot, and trapsed over there. I handed over my card, and the guy said "So, you've been buying from Amazon have you? They're cracking down on all internet purchases you know?". I had to pay the VAT (sales tax) on my CDs bought in the states before I could collect them.
Apparently, almost all internet based purchases from major US sites are now already attacting VAT charges in the UK. I know a friend who bought from Think Geek got stung a few weeks before for the VAT on his purchase.
This post will enter the public domain 70 years after my death, unless Disney buys another extension.
of something that happened when I was in highschool.
Me and a friend snuck out one night and t.p.'d a guys house that we knew. We even told him we'd be coming. But we waited until like 2 or 3 a.m. and he fell asleep watching out for us.
It was awesome - he woke up, looked outside and thought it had snowed. It was great - we told all our friends about it. I told my folks. They thought it was very funny.
Then they talked to my buddy's parents. And my dad comes to me and says, "Gary's parent's did not like what he did. They grounded him. It wouldn't be fair if nothing happened to you- you are grounded too."
The EU is saying "Hey we can't screw our own companies and rake in the taxes because the consumers have options. We have to make sure we screw everybody."
Losers.
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It's hard to believe that's how Micronians are made. Why don't we see it right now by having you both kiss one another?
Health insurance is not a necessity; it won't make you any more healthy. Health care is much more necessary.
The article is pretty vague on the specifics of what gets taxed. Is a subscription service subject to the VAT? So if someone wanted to subscribe to a web publication, would the tax have to be paid?
If not, then there's a workaround for this tax: Call it a "subscription" to a particular area of a web site where the product is downloadable "for free" by all subscribers to that section.
And if the subscriber is an educational institution, you can charge them a "subscription fee" for every person in the school and get around that pesky per-CPU pricing. Sweet!
He looked at me and said, "Kid, we don't like your kind, and we're gonna send your fingerprints off to Washington."
In a bid to help European online sales, the EU is planning to tax online transactions
quick post here -- but how exactly will TAXING online transaction HELP online sales?
seems like a real nonstarter, or simply a mistake
I strongly suspect "being forced to act as a tax-collector on behalf of a foreign country" would fall in the same boat. Heck, given the state of .US tax law, it wouldn't surprise me if it was considered seditious behavior. ;-)
D
Does anyone remember when the US govt was going to put postage on emails. Its not going to happen.
If they actually can set up a device to ensure that these transactions are monitored, the taxes will be the least of our worries.
Yet another signature that refers to itself. The irony and humor is dead.
Since when does the EU have the right to tell United States companies what to do? Did we make some silly agreement with the EU at some point?
Well, we've been at war over taxation before... Could we be headed for it again?
The Judgement of the Foolish Need Only be Feared When it Flatters.
The European governments already exploit the people way to much. This is just another example of it. The governments are way too powerful over there. Remember that for much of the 20th century, large parts of Europe were happily goosestepping under the great regimes of national and international socialists.
The U.S. Treasury Department (news - web sites) fears U.S. firms will be required to charge the EU's value-added tax at higher rates than their EU competitors. The department -- and American vendors -- also worry that EU rules will breed a complicated, difficult-to-enforce tax system that hampers e-commerce in general.
Maybe the US Treasury Department should talk to the IRS, too.
Really.
Do you think everyone should have to have a small penus as well since you didn't get a large one?
Most people in the US that don't have insurance do so by choice.
I'd rather take my chances here than depend on social medicine. Rather than a small portion of your population receiving substandard care - you flip it around and a small minority can afford to get better than substandard care. The rest of you are stuck w/sucky healthcare.
And don't piss us off. We kicked your ass in '76 and we can do it again.
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It's hard to believe that's how Micronians are made. Why don't we see it right now by having you both kiss one another?
Seems to me this would discourage online sales more than anything else.
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Choose mnemonic identifiers. If you can't remember what mnemonic means, you've got a problem. - Larry Wall
The EU can't do much about sites run strictly by outfits in the US. Mom and pop type online stores are far too numerous (and many don't even ship to Europe, anyway).
What ths is really aimed at is the Yahoo's and Amazon's, who do maintain a presence in the EU. Because they have offices and such in the EU, that does place them under EU jurisdiction, to some extent.
Amazon has at least one order fulfillment center in the EU (I want to say in Rotterdam, but I could be wrong). Yahoo has offices in Munich, Paris, London, and other EU cities.
In short, if you don't want to be charged, the best course may simply be to never physically do business in the EU. Don't open a Parisian office. If you need to be in Europe, Switzerland's not in the EU.
The Deloitte and Forrester research companies measure progress in the growth of e-commerce and forecast that by the end of 2002, online sales are expected to exceed $1 trillion, consisting of business-to-business sales of $842 billion and business-to-consumer sales of $180 billion (5). What effect could an Internet sales taxes have on these projected online sales? A study by the National Bureau of Economic Research found that the imposition of sales taxes could reduce online spending by as much as 30%. A 30% reduction in projected online consumer sales of $180 billion means $54 billion in lost retail sales. A 5% tax rate on the remaining $126 billion in sales would yield $ 6.3 billion in new sales tax revenues, but result in a net loss of $ 47.7 billion to the economy. Even if a 3% sales tax resulted in a more moderate 10% reduction in online sales, the $18 billion loss in sales volume would far exceed the $ 4.86 billion in new sales tax revenues.
These are striking numbers, even if US-centric. The EU should really be careful before instituting any such thing...
How does adding a tax help anything? It gives users a reason not to buy online. Besides, what about shareware. The demo product is free, therefore $0 tax. Now the license # that I paid the vendor to email me is not taxable. Not to be insulting, but its nice to know the EU is just as whacked out as our US policies.
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.
How is this going to be enforced? It is easy against larger companies that have European presences (e.g. Microsoft). But how about smaller companies that have only a web presence and are housed in the US? The article was a bit light on details in this regard. The EU will not have access to US courts will it? Anyone know anything more about the mechanics of enforcement?
dumb ass
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It's hard to believe that's how Micronians are made. Why don't we see it right now by having you both kiss one another?
The taxes only go to enrich the ruling class. It is correct that taxes are a form of theft: there is a good chance you might be shot if you refuse to pay them (and resist when they try to haul you away)
So the difference from today is that it will save customs for a lot of work since they currently are sending me a bill for the taxes after I got the package. They are also months behind as it is.
Anyway before ranting about having to pay taxes on internet sales, I just wanted to say that the taxes already are there if you follow the law, but with the change so that the internet companies have to charge for the taxes, it should be easier for us buyers to get stuff from the internet without having to deal with all those mails and bills from customs afterwards.
The only big hurdle is I see it is a way to implement it without killing the small shops outthere.
I worked for a dot-com in the UK which had to charge VAT on all purchases, based on the location to which it was shipping the item. The rules were different for every country -- the price threshold at which the tax applied, the tax rate itself, the types of items to which the tax applied -- and it was a nightmare to code a system which could handle every possibility. Enforcing this rule will only further discourage American companies from shipping to Europe -- something they're already aggravatingly unwilling to do.
When are governments going to grasp the idea that none of them have any jurisdiction over the Internet?
In a bid to help European online sales, the EU is planning to tax online transactions.
In other news, in a bid to help women feel safer while walking alone at night, the government is planning to legalize rape.
WTF?!
To hate the French. :-)
Sorry. That was rude and mean... but honestly... even the FRENCH hate the French.
Doesn't time pass quickly ? I can't believe another years's gone by .. time for another tax-the-net scare.
I work for a very large e-commerce company and right now we are forced to charge VAT in France as of Sept 15th of last year. Even on downloadable products...this will just piss europeans off even more. It all depends on where you live and where it's downloading from...
GeekWares - Buy and Download Today!
How do they plan to enforce this?
If they go after the customers then US vendors could give discounts equivalent to the VAT.
For example, If the VAT in the UK is 5%, just launch a targeted sales campaign of 5% off to UK customers.
I'm not against the VAT as long as the extra expenses incurred by the vendors to rewrite those shopping carts, e.t.c are passed on to the Europeans & not everybody else.
The EU is sure making some ambitous steps for so early in their formal existence. I hope their demands don't scale as fast as Moore's law, or there will be some problems before long.
Are they going to tax "sharing"?
Seems like a poweful disincentive to actually obey copyright law to me (but what do I know?)
Imagine a beowulf cluster of these!
I seem to recall some fierce debates on /. back three years ago when I said that we'd see transactions on the Net taxed by 2002 and in the US by 2005.
I stand by my predictions.
The problem has always been that bricks-and-mortar have to pay taxes to support the infrastructure - and so will Net businesses.
My current prediction is this will become a big issue in 2003, right after the mid-term elections. Much posturing by all parties involved, but they'll slip it in right after the 2004 elections. Or perhaps in 2003, early on, depending on what percentage of tax revenue it is by that point.
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--- Will in Seattle - What are you doing to fight the War?
I don't get it. Is Europe *trying* to stay behind? I'd be quite surprised if this doesn't slow down expansion of e-commerce in the EU. Of course, people will just start setting up off-shore.
o re id=cyber0ne9
YOU MUST MAKE + GLUE OOPS SLIP FINGER
YOU! AS MEDIA USSR!!!
oops slip finger
changes hasn't get in yet
now there is
http://www.cafepress.com/cp/store/store.aspx?st
YOU MUST TAX INTERNET SALES! YOU! AS MEDIA USSR!
In Europe (for good or for bad) we're fairly used to pay VAT on our purchases. This is matter of factly a tax and despite common musings it partially goes for good things,
So why the heck shouldn't be oversea purchases be taxed the same as if you buy a stash of Gilette razorblades at our local stores around the corner?
Next!
ich bin der musikant
mit taschenrechner in der hand
kraftwerk
That seems to be the whole point of the Law. Make it too much hassle for US products to ship to the EU. Then the EU companies will have the "fair chance" they need to compete in a world-wide market...(sniker sniker).
What all this has to do with downloaded material is beyond me though. Seems it would be impossible to enforce taxes on stuff that doesn't really exist (i know, the 1's and 0's are real).
You'd need cooperation from US companies, but I can tell you already the EU won't get mine. I'm not a socialist and I don't plan on spending my working hours contributing to the wealth of a foreign nation.
In some European countries, over half of the employed people are on the government payroll. European governments collect about 50% of your salary in taxes, and heap high sales tax and vice tax on top of that. Those who don't work collect hefty paychecks for not working. No wonder Europe has become a Mecca for shiftless and lazy third world mud people.
You heard it here first
So, when this is in effect, and someone pays for Slashdot to be add free, does Slashdot have to collect the tax on the transaction and pay the EU?
That's nice and all...but companies have accounting forms they send to the government for calculating taxes. The internet has nothing to do with it. The GOV inspecting the accounting record sees that you got paid by the company, now pay YOUR taxes too. Constuction workers don't report to an office, but they still pay taxes.
You don't even have to be alive to pay taxes.
You can pass any law you like, but it can only apply to people within your jusidiction. They CANNOT force foriegn companies to do anything. If they are taxing based on the purchaser's location then it must be the purchaser's responsibility. This pretty much requires that customs seize the import until the buyer pays the tax. I wanna see them try that with internet downloads LOL!
There are good reasons there's is no state tax on interstate commerce in the US. You start getting really stupid situations otherwise.
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- - You can't take something off the Internet! That's like trying to take pee out of a swimming pool.
EUROPE: You MUST pay us the VAT TAX!! Our citizens are starting to think they can do as they please without involving us!!
USA: Uh, no we don't.
EUROPE: Yes you do!!!
USA: No, we dont.
Europe: Oh. Please? With sugar on top?
Why are all the other replies to this message marked -1 troll or off-topic? This seems systematic, especially since most of them make the same valid point.
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Health insurance is funded by national insurance contributions, that is social security tax on salaries, not by VAT. VAT is a tax to charge added value, that is the creation of weath in the UK. As if it was bad to create wealth.
The two problems I see are:
If an EU companie sells something to someone abroad, e.g an American, it does not charge VAT. That looks like a subsidy from the EU to help EU cie to export.
If an EU cie in the UK sells something to an European in a different EU country, e.g France, it still charges the UK rate. But the American companie on the other hand will have to deal with 15 different rates, which will cost him much more to organize. It's unfair to put a huge burden to foreign companies and a lighter one on the European.
It looks like the European Union wants to disavantage foreign companies in favor of local ones. And at the same time tax more the few Europeans who uses the Internet, instead of encouraging the others to join them
How does France impose this policy on your company? Can they not let your packages inside the country?
Right. So what happens when a "barter exchange" site has its own currency that helps the exchange of items?
Will the E.U. be paid in... "e-acorns", if that's the name of the virtual currency?
What happens when I hand over a table in exchange for a music download?
Let's see how the E.U. legislation will apply on that!
Physical items, they could do, quite easily. "Please to be impoundink packages, da."
'net transactions? If they're located in Europe, they can obviously force companies to give up their records and pay the tax.
What if the companies are soley in the US?
Not happening.
...plan on enforcing this download policy on Americans? What are they gonna do, start blocking IP's of download sites? Teah, That'll work. I can understand a tax on PHYSICAL objects, but taxing 1's and 0's seems pretty usless, how are they going to STOP the download from happening if no taxes are collected? I can't think of anything.
I already pay Dutch VAT when I mail-order anything from abroad, and it has been like that for as long as I can remember. Like you, I pay this tax to the postal service, although I can pay directly to the mailman. Upon entry, it is like the package turns into a COD item with internal revenue as the beneficiary.
What they propose is to somehow tax the transactions when they take place, and (I assume), somehow collect EU VAT from every foreign company doing on-line business in the EU. I can see one of two things happening:
- The EU pays for the cost these companies incur for collecting their VAT. Of course that requires loads of people to check VAT statements from foreign companies, etc. etc., so the for every Euro paid in tax, 30 Eurocents will end up in the EU coffers, the rest disappears in wages for extra paper-pushers.
- The EU makes the companies collect VAT without renumeration. Those companies will either pass on the cost for the extra administration to European customers (see my first point), or they'll simply stop offering goods and services here.
The devil is in the details for collecting this tax. Taxation in itself doesn't have to be a bad thing, but when collecting this tax becomes slightly non-standard, or requires a lot of overseeing, it becomes so expensive that only a small part of the collected tax remains for public spending.
If construction was anything like programming, an incorrectly fitted lock would bring down the entire building...
this means war.
God-damnit i hate the EU almost as much as the US. If only they would enforce VAT on illigal substances - then they wouldn't have to charge as much for the rest of us.
This comment does not represent the views or opinions of the user.
"I can work for a software company completely over the internet, both in work and in payment. You can be sure that the government is going to want to collect income tax on that employment."
Sure you can, and the Government, Federal, State and Local can get a piece of your money based on where you reside, because I doubt you reside on the Internet, and where your employeer's physical location is.
EX: US kicked off human rights committee while rights violators stay.. Pathetic.
Well, not a lot of countries execute the mentally retarded AND children. Just the USA and maybe Yemen. That's why the USA won't sign the convention on protecting the rights of the child, since it has a clause in there about not killing them.
They may elect to tax physical items (books, hardware,etc) at a later date.
Come on, is this 2002 or 1992? Seriously, the other part of the news (i.e. taxing online transactions for online goods) is totally valid, because it's not being done yet, AFAIK.
There is a concept of EU's taxation area, which includes pretty much the whole EU with a couple of exceptions (like Jersey). Since something like 1993 there has been the EU "Single Market", and most physical goods imported from elsewhere have been subject to VAT. If I order something from for example the US or Australia or Japan I have to pay VAT if the package gets caught in the customs. If I order something from the UK or France or Germany, who cares, it's from the taxation area, and taxes are assumed to have already been paid. Many European online vendors have VAT already included in their prices, and for example Amazon.co.uk charges the VAT based on the destination country.
At least some Canadian online vendors go around VAT by sending their shipments to the customer from some country in the EU. The package isn't subject to VAT if it's sent from France or Belgium. I don't know the legality of this, but the concept sounds somewhat dubious, despite allowing cheaper prices for the customer.
At least in Finland the key is to order less in one package, because our customs don't bother to charge less than 10 euros. I have something like 90 DVD titles (some of them being 5-6 disc boxes), with almost all of them being ordered from the net, and only 15 of them originate from the EU taxation area. I haven't paid VAT (22% in Finland) or customs (3.5%) for a single one of the imported ones, because I order only one or two discs at a time.
More information about VAT is available at European Union's VAT info page.
Does anyone else think that this is in return for the US stance on imported steel? I just saw an article on CNN about trade issues between the EU and the US, and thought hey, this makes sense from an EU perspective, if they are going to up barriers to exporting EU products to the US, then lets make it harder for US companies to make money from the EU - by removing the pricing advantage by addition of tax. I don't think this is really a taxation issue, I think its partial retaliation for the US imposing restrictions on imports into the US from the EU.
Don't sell to Europeans.
Are they going to tax "sharing"?
I think it was Greece that required all anarchists to register with the government (I find no evidence of such a law online, it may be apocryphal.) With Zen governance like that, you can do anything.
From an infrastructure standpoint, how would they tax downloaded information? There are a couple of ways-
1) The simplest way is to track the credit cards of everyone in the country. I have no idea what kind of credit cards Swedes even have (WTF is a "eurocard"? Is that real?) but I bet they use them for 95% of internet commerce. You could do the same thing with online checks, if europeans use those. You just make all the nations financial institutions report it to big brother whenever they transfer money out of the country. I bet Sweden does this already. This way you can enforce it entirely in-house. This would "catch" 95% of transactions.
2) Tax incoming data. Anytime you get more than X data over the course of some length of time, the government assumes it costs money. They tax you at some rate, unless a vendor turns in an electronic receipt for the purchase. Vendors that wanted to sell to europeans would have to play ball or their customers would get footed with crazy bills. "Maximum disruption, minimum benefit?" Yes, but I doubt the people in brussels care. This has the advantage of "catching" people who got their credit cards from the bank of antigua; a tiny sliver of the population who might otherwise escape. It would also tax filesharing.
The good and new comes from no quarter where it is looked for, and is always something different from what is expected.
Wouldn't taxing all online transactions give the government a database of what everyone bought on the internet?
I think Europe is in trouble. And that doesn't come so much from the increasingly overbearing nature of their governments but from the reactions of the people subjected to it. they act as if they've been cowed into a state of passivity. Like they've no fight in them. I expected all hell to break loose over the cameras but no. And now these intenet taxes.
One of these days, Europe will learn (the hard way) to encourage value added activity, rather than tax it. The US has known this all along, which is why it rules the world's economy.
They pulled an economic boner, let them fix it. Seems there were two obvious solutions to the problem:
:)
1.) Change their local policies to correct a problem caused by a previous local policy.
2.) Demand that foriegn entities change policies to correct poor local policy decisions.
And they chose 2. It just seems like an incredibly arrogant decision.
ps:
Nice to meet one of the other 2 guys who knows how to use the word "lose" in a sentence.
Ok I am not an economist, but what is the theory or rationale behind the VAT? AFAIK, "wealth" is created when I can take something(s) and create something else I can resell for more than what I paid for the original something(s).
First, I can't think of a way that it makes sense for the purchaser to pay a tax because the seller has created "wealth" for himself/herself. Second, if the tax is applied as a percentage of the sale price, why is it if person A has profit margins of 20% and person B's is 50%, but they sell their products for the same price, the tax is the same for both products... so it doesn't really matter how much wealth is being created when the tax is applied?
Or did I miss something and the government is somehow adding value to the product, and charging for the added value they are providing?
Another thing: if it's to tax the creation of wealth in the country that is levying the tax, but the seller is outside the country, they are not exactly creating wealth for the taxing country now are they? Now it's a tax on wealth created outside the EU... How does this make sense?
Or is this just another way to fund the government?
If the VAT went away, would economic activity pick up because people now have more money to spend that was formerly going to the government?
That's it, you're going to jail. Please report to your neighborhood United Statesian Intelligence Agency for precautionary anti-terror incarceration.
On second thought, just keep making your threats on the internet, we'll find you, you foreign monster.
It's weird, but I've been sitting here reading a book called "Tax Savvy for the Small Business" the last hour, trying to make some sense of this stuff.
I started my own business "officially" last year selling my artwork and artistic services through my website, and from what I've seen it seems like the whole system is setup to make it almost impossible for anyone without a verifiable team of tax experts at beck-and-call to operate a business. I'm already having to keep complicated books and records and collect state sales tax, pay a self-employment tax and fill out a ton of US tax forms.
Now they're saying that should they decide to tax physical goods shipped to Europe, I would have to keep track of and report to some-15 different tax rates and countries overseas? Let's just close the internet now and go home; I may as well just set up a stand on my street-corner and be done with it. I'd never have time to paint because I'd be buried in paperwork.
If this kind of thing becomes popular, the only people that anyone will be able to purchase items from will be SuperMegaStore-Mart, because they'll be the only ones with the funds and volume to justify a team of 100 people just to do their taxes. Way to kill off small struggling businesses, guys.
My Webcomic: Asylum on 5th Street
you should buy me a delorean.
I'd like to see all the US internet-based companies collude and refuse to sell goods to Europeans. Let them get all the way through the ordering process, and then tell them, "Sorry, before this transaction can be completed, you need to get your representatives to repeal this ridiculous VAT."
This is the same type of action I'd like to see the car manufacturers take against California's ridiculous proposal to regulate CO2 emissions. You can bet Californians would become very pissed at their state representatives very fast if they were unable to purchase new cars or register out-of-state cars in CA. "Sorry, you're in CA: you can't buy any of our cars because your state's emissions regulations are too stringent. Try again in late November."
I would have a huge laugh if either happened. =)
[ home ]
Get the leftists and big-government Republicans out of office. Join the Libertarian Party.
[ home ]
Imagine- they have to individually inspect all the incoming packages, sort and store a bunch of them, enter your address into a database, send you a notice, and deal with you when you get there- all for what, 17% of a $40 sale? I don't see how this can pay!
Legalize rape! Oh Briitneeyy... :)
is that not counter intuitive
I am the Alpha and the Omega-3
Well, it's for download. France requires us to charge it...so we automatically tack the 15% or whatever it is on top...becuase we're going to get charged it anyhow.
GeekWares - Buy and Download Today!
in saying.. "How is this going to help e-commerce??" and so on. It's simple.
Europeans already pay VAT (Value Added Tax) on purchases made within their own countries or the EU as a whole.
This means that buying stuff from the US can work out cheaper than buying it from your own country. So, by forcing US companies to tax EU citizens on purchases, this will force consumers to buy from e-commerce sites in the EU.
This sounds fair enough, but it's actually extremely unfair. For a start, many things are far cheaper in the US, or aren't ever available in the EU.
I'm a big Jewel fan, and her album came out in the US last year, so I ordered it from Amazon.com and paid about £15 in all, including delivery. Amazon.co.uk wanted £20!
I'd fully support the EU's ideas on this one if things in the EU were competitively priced. They're not. The EU business world is governed by cartels intent on driving prices as high as possible. It's only in the past year that CD prices have come down to US levels.. we used to pay up to three times more just five years ago!
So if the EU wants us to buy from EU stores, perhaps the EU should be a bit more like the US and open up its economy and not be so bureaucratic! If the US can have cheap gasoline and cheap CDs, I'm sure as hell the EU could too (since the EU is technically richer than the US and all).
mogorific carpentry experiments
This will of course have the opposite effect of making them money. Some entities increase charges when they need to make more money, this is typical of more socialist ideals and popular in Europe*. Others lower prices to make more money. This often sounds odd, but it's the principal of the bargain and reliance on good old marketing and upselling. Typically more a US ideal.
In England they need more money for whatever, so they raise taxes. In the US they lower taxes to stimulate the economy and produce more overall wealth.
As a US based company with British tech we get to see both sides of the coin quite clearly, and as a money making machine we're very confident of which works best. Here we sit processing an awful lot of credit card transactions every second, mostly for US customers because it's easy. Do you think any court in this land will force us to spend heaps of money supporting foreign tax laws? Do you think we're going to release those records without such an order?
Even if we were forced to charge said tax, what would actually happen is it would be cheaper and more cost effective for us to not do business with those countries. End result: Those countries have less imports from the US. Their loss not ours. A good lesson in shooting yourself in the foot.
Same thing. Thinking of opening an office in London... Any idea how much company tax and fees they pay over there? Waaay to much. End result is we declined and the UK lost out on a company branch that produces loads in tax every month. Greed got them poor. Plain old stupid.
Robert
WebsiteBilling.com Inc.
* Typically, IMHO, etc. etc.
I hope governments around the globe just tax the motherfucking living shit out of everything commercial on the Internet. Then the e-carpetbaggers will either go broke or start looking for another medium to fuck people over with... but at least the Internet will return to the global information opportunity it used to be before all this commercialization damn near destroyed it.
The current US government seems to making a lot of foreign governments angry with their protectionist import restrictions. Apparently, "free trade" only works when its in the US's favor, god forbid some other country might actually be more efficient at producing something.
I can see the EU requiring a company to collect the VAT if they have a presence in the EU... I'm *assuming* (like the crazy american that I am) that the EU has done something to normalize VAT rates in each member country/state so it ought not to be too difficult to collect the VAT for an EU-based company...
I don't like this, but I can see the reasoning behind it...
Now what I consider absolutely moronic is the EU telling someone not in the EU that they have to collect VAT. Ummm, sorry guys, but I'm in America, not some EU member state, and you can go Fsck yourselves before I become a tax collector for you. No way I'm gonna do it, no how. I'm not required to do it for customers not in my state, so why in the hell would I be willing to do it for a country ummm, several thousand miles away? With a different currency? That I'd have to convert, and worry about paying, and transfer, and incur fees for?
It seems to me that the reason people are ordering from overseas is to avoid the ungodly high VAT! So here's an idea: Try lowering the rate so it becomes a wash to actually order crap from your own country, rather than having it shipped from mine!
Public services in the European Union tend to be funded from taxation or compulsory subscription. By avoiding payment of tax internet sales gain an unfair lead on traditional outlets and harm the common good. Where another nation doesn't follow a similar mechanism for raising needed revenue for public expenditure the end result is someones unfair gain for someone elses unfair pain. Putting taxation on internet sales levels the playing field and ensures that the public purse is not robbed.
The bill only covers digital products, i.e. downloads - so there should be no problem with SHIPPING.
Woe be on to them, all who rise against poor people, shall perish in a the end. Buju Banton
When the EU ships me
Qty.(1) EU tax accountant $0.00
I will be happy to comply, otherwise they will be treated like any other out of state customer were I have no office and be charged NOTHING in the way of tax. My product, our laws get over it.
Si vis pacem, para bellum! For evil to succeed good men need only do nothing!
How can you help online sales if you're taxing?
Decides who?
Is the public opinnion in the EU supporting this?
I strongly doubt it.
There's 2 things that this can show:
1 - EU is a closed society
2 - EU is feudal and non future-minded
When are we going to allow eachother to get out of poverty and live happily together?
france sucks, england sucks, scotland sucks
the EU is aite tho
As a US citizen, I think this tax could actually benefit US online retailors. How? For example, imagine I'm CEO of www.icebergs.com, selling affordable icebergs to people across the world. When Europeans have to start paying taxes for them, to remain competitive I can 1) reduce prices by 15-25% 2) start shipping by boat, for 2 month delivery time (but cheap!) 3) refuse to sell to Europe and refocus my advertising, efforts elsewhere like Japan and Australia Choices 1 and 2 are probably not going to work. But 3 has a good chance of working. As long as I can convince people who might not have seen my product (icebergs) before to buy my product, I will maintain sales levels. And the Europeans will be scratching their heads wondering what happened. If you can't join 'em, beat em!
I'm at a loss to understand how some idiotic tax (in an area that is already well known for outrageous VAT taxes) is supposed to help sales. Basic economics will indicate that if an item becomes more expensive, fewer items will be sold. Since the tax goes to the gov't instead of whoever is actually producing, selling, distributing the item, that money is for all intents and purposes LOST.
Very, very shortsighted. Historical evidence unequivocally shows that for the last 100 years, every time taxes have been lowered and economic boom came to fruition within 2-4 years (economic inertia). This boom has ALWAYS offset the short-term lowered tax revenues caused by lowering taxes in the first place. Pity that most politicians only think 2-4 years ahead, and thus do not realize (or don't want to realize) this obvious truth. If you don't believe me just go to www.omb.gov (Office of Management and Budget) for the lowdown on the economic figures for the U.S.
You'll note that Reagan lowered taxes and increased spending, resulting in a deficit. He was widely criticized for it, but the 80's were huge boom years. Apart from a very short (only 1 economic quarter) recession in 1990, the economy STAYED in high gear until the tech crash of 2000-2001. During the longest economic expansion in U.S. history (which started under Reagan, not Bush #1, and certainly not Clinton), tax revenues INCREASED to the point where we were whacking away at the deficit in huge chunks. During that same time period government spending INCREASED as well, something that should've caused more deficits, but didn't due to the greatly increased tax revenues.
Under Clinton taxes were radically increased. You'll note that about 4 years later the economy abruptly reversed. I'm not blaming Clinton for the recession (overenthusiastic investors are largely to blame), but it can be said that he did little to thwart it. Now Bush #2 is in the center seat, and he's cutting taxes. I have every reason to believe that we'll deficit spend for 1-2 years, but in the long run it will pay us to have done things this way.
The EU has never gotten this idea, and the absurd VAT tax is just another example. Governments and politicians don't EARN or PRODUCE wealth, they TAKE it and SPEND it without regard to who they took it from. There is no way in hell MORE taxes will lead to a BETTER economy. History does not lie.
In the end they will lay their freedom at our feet and say to us, Make us your slaves, but feed us. - Fyodor Dostoyevsky
Actually, not bad, but horribly stupid. The worst thing in society is for a gov't to pass laws that will be widely ignored by "everyone", only to let the gov't then selectively enforce them when they want to generate money or go after someone for something else. Speed limits in the US evolved into exactly this sorry state a long time ago, for example.
It might make sense for the US and Europe to form a free trade zone. But until that happens, taxes on imported items are a fact of life, no matter how you order.
For downloadable purchases, Europeans have decided to tax them domestically. That's different from US policy, but so what? If American firms now want to sell downloadable stuff in Europe, they face the choice: either collect the European taxes or face increasing regulation by European governments. US firms generally prefer self-regulation. But the Europeans have the means to get their cut, if necessary, by taking the money out of on-line banking transactions.
Two words: Anonymous proxy
Europe decides to implement a 17(!) percent tax to all online purchases in the EU. Online purchases drop precariously. EU faults the United States...because the US does not have an internet tax. That's batshit-crazy. Nuts!
The EU is quite literally, placing neurotic demands on the United States.
I am unsettled that the EU would produce such an irrational and arrogant statement. It's like you thought you knew your neighbors all these years and then one day seeing old Bob out mowing the yard naked. Kind of makes you wonder what else he might do.
I think you are going a bit far although political assassinations in Italy and Netherlands; no Presidential debate in France between the final two contenders; massive anti-semitism throughout Europe; etc. do make one wonder if the start of a "closed-minded" Europe is happening.
In this case though, my opinion, is that the tax just shows that politicians in Europe respond to local business interests that want every ounce of protection from foreign competition they can get. This happens in the US, Asia and everywhere else...it is basically a non-event. Pretty soon US Governors will be harping again about taxing cross-State-border internet sales and it isn't because the US is starting to be a closed-society just that local brick-and-mortar firms don't like competition (even with other _American_ firms) and State bureaucrats want fatter budgets.
Why do we allow other countries to dwell on the US Internet?
I mean, we invented it, everyone else can go play somewhere else.
Let the EU have their own Internet, and charge their own taxes on it. I don't think the average Joe would notice the EU is missing.
imagine I'm CEO of www.icebergs.com, selling affordable icebergs to people across the world
A more realistic dot-com CEO would try to sell them to iceland.
I find this a bit confusing. If a US company is charging VAT to a European customer, how does Europe then get the money from the US company? Wouldn't the company then have to file VAT in each of the European member states that it has received tax on their behalf? What is going to make them do that? Wouldn't this just stop companies from outside Europe selling to people living inside Europe?
offtopic, but...
I'm an American, dernit. From the United States of AMERICA.
There ain't no such thing as a USian, no more than there is an EUian. They are Americans and Europeans.
Canadians may complain, but hey, the USA was first in the hemisphere to declare independence, so we got dibs on the name....
I said the cd....
The lure to tax and spend politicians is too great to ignore. Just as the wash room attendent Dave Dinkins in collusion with Vallone, the city council speaker quickly raised the gasoline tax at the end of the gulf war when the gasoline price was finally receding, the ability to tax inter-state internet sales is too attractive to tax and spend politicians.
While mail order catalog sales are generally exempt from sales taxes in most states, internet sales are the same, except a different medium is being used to place the order. That's it. The only difference.
In most states, businesses are not exempt to the sales tax on mail order sales, or internet sales, due to the use tax. Same tax, different name. How is this enforced? If you run a business, just about anything you purchase for that business is a deductible business expense. When you put that business expense into your tax returns for the writeoff, that becomes auditable, and traceable. So you have two choices. Pay the use tax, or roll the dice and risk getting nailed in an audit, and opening up a whole can of worms to see if you paid use taxes on other deductions. The third choice is not claim the business deduction, which is more costly than paying the use tax.
So businesses in the US, my friend, pay sales/use tax on inter-state internet purchases already.
The recession lasted ONE quarter in 1990? Now granted I'm not an economist and I was in my teens at the time, I seem to remember the economic troubles in the early 90's lasting alot longer than 3 months. Here's a link that says it lasted 8 (though it is from a possibly biased source):
"The most recent recession officially started in July 1990, bringing to a close the Nation's longest peacetime expansion on record. This recession officially ended about 8 months later in March 1991"
http://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/1994/06/art1exc.htm
And I've yet to read a compelling argument that Reaganomics actually worked...
This is not the greatest sig in the world, this is just a tribute.
Yes, internet taxes will be coming sooner rather than later. Instead of protesting against the internet taxes, you should be lobbying to deduct shipping charges from the taxes owed. Say it costs $7 to ship a $100 order. If the sales tax rate in your state is 7%, you should be able to deduct the full $7 from the tax owed, in this case the sale would be tax free. On a $300 order, where shipping is $7, tax charges come to $21, deduct $7, and balance of $14 in tax is owed on transaction.
Internet taxes are coming. You need to lobby your reps to deduct the shipping charges from the tax owed. These are federal reps you will be lobbying, but it will be states, not feds collecting these taxes.
When I buy something, I take into account an online price, plus shipping cost, plus hassle to return, against brick and mortar purchase, plus sales tax, plus transportation cost to location, plus easier return, plus less chance of privacy loss in cash transaction. The online purchase usually wins out, when I can complete transaction over phone against insecure internet. This is due to lower prices due to lower overhead of online shop, not lack of taxes. Shipping charges in most cases cancel out sales taxes.
It will be partying in the streets for brick and mortar operations when internet taxes are implemented. They will then have the advantage of taxes being charged to everyone, plus shipping charges for internet sales, against their retail offerings without shipping charges. This will be a huge win for retailers that do business either through a brick and mortar store exclusively, or that do business through both brick and mortar and online. The losers will be online exclusive shops, and the public.
because his boss drives a BMW.
Let's say if I choose to buy something online (location: canada) from the UK... I pay UK tax for the product and I pay an online tax fee? For the same product? That suxx.
I think I'll continue not to buy online.
Europe can't compete with the US on technology grounds, so they want to make it harder to buy goods on-line. What a brilliant idea!
What I cannot understand is why EU is still wasting time trying to develop the best law for on-line trade, which is a constantly moving target anyway. Why can't they just let the market forces do their job?
Taxing on-line purchases is stupid, but it won't stop there. The government of Poland (an EU candidate) wants to charge VAT on free software. The new tax code with an appropriate clause, which allows for it has been in effect since March 26th, 2002. Oh, joy!
I don't have a link in English, but here's the link in Polish.
Why is it that the poorest countries want to make technology so expensive they virtually stall all advancements in that field?
If you accept that they have no way to enforce this with companies that don't have a physical presence in an EU country(no US court will help them with this), logically they will be forced to block non-compliant web sites from EU countries. I can see it now:
1. EU finds high traffic/high volume download for money web sites that doesn't charge VAT
2. They send an informational message explaining you have to collect the tax from EU users
3. Some time passes, web site still isn't collecting VAT
4. Harsher message is sent threatening to block IP addresses from all EU countries.
5. More time passes. They block the web site, no one in the EU can access it.
Now it will be a bit difficult to "block" the IP address, but given the few number of paths into any country and the small number of companies running them, I believe it will be possible for them to shut off most access to a non-compliant site. By doing this they create a situation that might convince someone to reconsider collecting the VAT tax.
Even if smart users can "hack" their way around it, the company will find it's EU sales reduced to near zero. Plus if done right it could cut off email and other access(the block would work both ways). It's a very big stick and it's well within their reach.
The "problem" from the governments' points of view is that they (in whatever country, US, EU etc) can levy taxes on physical items imported no matter whether they were ordered via internet, phone, mail or any other method. What they are now wanting to do is find some way of taxing "goods" (eg software, music etc) imported electronically and downloaded from outside their jusristiction.
It's a matter entirely between the non-EU seller and the EU. As someone above wrote, their US-based company pays French VAT to the French gov't on sales to France. The buyer doesn't have to do anything, no different if the French buyer bought it from a French online retailer. From the perspective of the buyer, the government isn't any more overbearing since he/she already pays VAT on EU online transactions.
I'm sorry if I haven't offended anyone
They already tax EU online sales, so EU sellers are at a disadvantage against non-EU sellers who don't pay tax.
I'm sorry if I haven't offended anyone
...than writing that diatribe. They are just widening existing taxation to include imports bought over the Internet.
I'm sorry if I haven't offended anyone
Steps towards UK membership (from the EC-UK website):
http://europa.eu.int/rapid/start/cgi/guesten.ksh?p _action.gettxt=gt&doc=MEMO/00/31|0|AGED&lg=EN&disp lay=
I'm sorry if I haven't offended anyone
FAQ
I'm sorry if I haven't offended anyone
Just another example of the bureaucratic mindset from Brussels. Everything is produced by committee, and what seems like an OK idea turns into a mammoth pile of crap. (For another example, look at the Euro.)
While the rest of the world and many Europeans see this pile of crap as a pile of crap, European Commission bureaucrats insist that the said crap is actually a tool for business growth and equalling the playing field.
Reality plays very little in Brussels, and this kind of move only further pisses off local consumers/voters. Tagentially, these kinds of actions give the extreme right more political issues to define itself against.
Europe already lags behind the US and Japan in on-line sales, and imposing 20% VAT will go far to cementing that third place ranking. Consumers are already getting hammered by inflation caused b the Euro, this will just dissuade them from buyig further.
As for me, I'll stay with my warez thank you very much.
I think the point is to help EU companies' sales as opposed to US ones. They already pay VAT (and you have to pay VAT on goods imported through the usual distribution channels, too), so the idea is to level the playing field. This does seem completely unenforcable, though.
All your questions answered here: FAQ
Quote:
How would these proposed VAT rules be enforced in the case of non-EU companies?
These proposals would require VAT registration only in the case of larger operators (over 100,000 of sales to private consumers per annum in the EU). Smaller operators and those with only occasional sales into the Community would be excluded from the scope of the tax.
In the case of larger operators, it is in their own interests to be seen to be in compliance with their legal obligations (including VAT obligations) arising from Internet trading because they themselves want to ensure that others respect their obligations in respect of the operators' rights, for example as regards copyright or other intellectual property rights. Legitimate operators certainly do not want to give credence to the idea that Internet is a zone where laws do not apply - the incentive to voluntary compliance should not therefore be underestimated.
I'm sorry if I haven't offended anyone
Until the 3rd everything is correct. 4 and 5 do not exist. Believe me, there is no such thing as blocking out traffic from the EU.
;)
I dont' know if you are a citizen of the EU- well I am.
Where would you start the blockade? Which countries would agree? who would not? Even if we are all members of the EU, we are still COUNTRIES not states.
It takes AGES for the government of the EU to pass a law or something, because each and every country must first accept it, but most do not...
They are way too busy to get their own shit in check than blocking of sites which do not comply.
The next thing why blocking pages would be impossible is because there is no "top level IP organisiation" or whatever you might call them wihtin the EU. Every provider is on it's own.
So, why would Providers shut a path to a site down when other do not, thus creating an advance for them?
I think your vision might work in the states, but here in the EU the structure between the parts (states, countries whatever) is to loose to get into this. Well let's be happy about that
As a 5 year poster to this forum, I wake up this morning (8 May 2002) and am just about to make the following contribution into the discussion w.r.t the daft EU proposal on levying VAT on US onlines sales
I hit 'preview' and am presented with the following.
Notwithstanding that our so-called 'censor' here has an email address with no MX configured making any attempt at questioning this offline futile.
I have to ask the obvious question,
did 'HanzoSan' get the same threatment for posting inflammatory material denying the extensively documented death of 10s of millions ?
If not, would an equally sick mind posting holocaust denial material get the same leeway ?
If Slashdot has become just another vehicle for the left to promulgate class warfare, just tell me, I'll take my toys somewhere else, and leave folks to wallow in their own ignorance.
Curmugdeon (aka cmkrnl
GST's, VAT's, sales taxes are all regressive taxes and should be abolished. We already pay tax once on our earnings, why should we pay taxes on things we buy?
Remove all of these ridiculous taxes and bump up income tax instead.
If you buy anything from outside the UK valued at over £13 and have it brought in third party then yo are meant to pay both duty and VAT on it.
You;ll find this normally does not happen as there are so many parcels coming through that it would be impossible for customs to deal with them all. Net result is they ignore most (but not all)m smaller items and low value items.
Occasionally you will be unlucky and have a small package targetted. This happened to me with some t-shirts I ordered from the US.
There is some SERIOUS systematic down-modding going on against Libertarian viewpoints.
This story isn't new (I heard it some months back).
From what I gather for a company to do business in any country they have to pay VAT. This gives forgien companies a massive step in the door as they have been dodging this for years.
Now AFAIR they have to pay VAT based on either (a) thier location within the EU or (b) the location of the buyer.
This means a US company can make a shell company in say Belguim and still offer cheaper merchandise then say a UK company, it's just that now they are competing on a slightly fairer footing.
It's the VAT. We already pay it for ALL our products. So it will have NO impact on online EU sales. It's already done. It's not a new tax to be imposed in EU transactions.
This "tax" is simply an import duty, and is designed to stop european's from bying lower priced american goods simple and plain enough. They have something similar in canada, you order something from the US, customs checks what it is, and applies however much tax they want.
To make it simple, this is to stop non eu sales from happening.
Om, nomnomnom...
The internet tax in addition to 8.5% state sales tax in Calif* + 3.5% Tennesee export tax would easily push total taxes over 15%.
...clearly all we need is a p2p network of real people prepared to purchase items in their home country and ship as a private transaction to the "oppressed" purchaser.......try taxing that. Did it myself recently and saved $20 on a console game purchase even including all shipping!
EU shoots itself in the foot yet again...
Guess what? EU tax laws are NOT ENFORCEABLE IN THE UNITED STATES! Officials of American companies that don't have a foreign subsidiary that can be pressured (like Yahoo France was) will no doubt roll on the floor laughing hysterically, and then start counting the extra sales they'll pick up by underpricing the companies that do have to abide by EU stupidities.
The EU cannot enforce this outside the EU, and they know it--look at their FAQ! The "enforcement" section is all about voluntary compliance--which will no doubt be a lot like the "voluntary compliance" where customers are supposed to voluntarily add required state sales taxes to mail orders here in the U.S. NOBODY IN THEIR RIGHT MIND PAYS TAXES VOLUNTARILY!
If I want to give my money away, I give it away to a church or charitable organization, not the eternally-corrupt, wasteful government.
In the U.S., mail order companies are only required to collect sales taxes in states in which they have an actual storefront presence because there are Constitutional problems with forcing a private business to act as a tax collector in another state. The same laws and issues will prohibit any legal requirements to collect taxes for a foreign authority such as the EU. If Lousiana can't force a California mail-order business to collect sales taxes from a Louisiana customer, what makes those idiots in the EU think they can?
---dragoness
I think you are glossing over the fact that the Reagan debt is still with us and was financed by poor short term loans. This is equivalent to buying 3 houses on credit cards. It is extremely short sighted and dangerous. I leave it up to the reader to decide whether the first Bush recession was caused by an abandonment of Reaganomics or the fruition of it. Clinton understood that the Reagan debt, which is still with us, had to be paid before it destroyed the economy altogether. The boom we had may have been even better had the government not been saddled with such enormous debt(half the taxes paid by individuals was being used to pay the interest on the debt).
I find it more than a little frightening that a failed businessman who is obviously more than a little stupid is sitting at that desk. The only comfort I have is that his daddy and Dick are the ones who are really running the show. But then again, they're the same Corporate lacky's who help people like Enron out.
But most people don't care(or understand) as long as the bread and circuses continue.
Cat
You've got to be kidding, right?
1. 9/11 didn't happen because of any one factor. If you're going to attribute it to one factor, though, do it right. It happened because some people think its a good idea to kill lots of people.
2. Economy: China is slowing. England is Europe's best shot. Germany is lagging.
3. Crap education: Maybe you should look into the literacy rates in german teens before you mouth off a decade-old stereotype.
4. Let me get this straight. You attack the U.S. healthcare system by referencing a dumb movie? You watch movies and draw conclusions. God damn, I am absolutely convinced you are either a troll or a moron. Maybe both.
By the way....the insurance situation over here is much more complex than can be explained in a simple off-topic note.
And paying more (any for that matter) taxes is acceptable in WHAT way? I pay taxes out of fear of being put in jail. I can't leave the store with the $.25 pack of gum that costs $.27 without paying the full $.27
There is more than just a EU/US mine's bigger than your, I dun have to do what you say kind of game folks. Its your money being extorted. Don't stand for it.
This is my sig. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
A recession is defined as two consecutive quarters of negative growth. My mistake, I should've said TWO quarters, not one.
Either way, that's 6 months, not 8. That mini-recession DID included a few quarters before and after of slow or stagnant growth (all recessions do) which made the apparent effects longer. You can review all these numbers at omb.gov.
In the end they will lay their freedom at our feet and say to us, Make us your slaves, but feed us. - Fyodor Dostoyevsky
"just widening existing taxation"...and you just sit there and defend it. They are taking YOUR money, to spend it on God knows what, which will most likely never bring any tangible benefit to YOU, but will certainly benefit the political career of someone else...with YOUR money.
How long before they have to "widen" things again? Pretty soon the vast majority of your disposable income will be going just to pay the taxes, not to buy things!
Apathy must be fun.
In the end they will lay their freedom at our feet and say to us, Make us your slaves, but feed us. - Fyodor Dostoyevsky
I think you are glossing over the fact that this country has run a deficit every year since WWII, under both Republican and Democratic presidents, and it hasn't harmed us a whit. I'd also like to point out that if your savior Bill Clinton really was serious about deficit destruction then he wouldn't have signed so many Democratic spending bills, but that would just be petty of me, wouldn't it? You seem to have a rather large axe to grind against the Republican's here, with Bush in particular. Sour grapes over the election?
In the end they will lay their freedom at our feet and say to us, Make us your slaves, but feed us. - Fyodor Dostoyevsky
Protectionist tarriffs rarely have the intended effect. Usually people just go elsewhere to obtain their goods. The U.S. has been guilty of this many times, and it's almost always backfired. If "helping" EU company sales is their goal, why the hell don't they reduce the tax burden of those companies so they can sell their products cheaper?
In the end they will lay their freedom at our feet and say to us, Make us your slaves, but feed us. - Fyodor Dostoyevsky
This tax is simply unfair. With a mail or catalog sales, a tax is added if the retail company has a physical operation in the same state as the customer. However, my understanding of the European tax, and proposals for such a tax in the U.S., is that a with an Internet sale, a tax is added regardless of the retail company's physical location.
I truly do not see a substantial difference between these two methods of sales to provide for a different method of taxation: the provision of information for a product is provided to the customer in the same fashion:
1. With a catalog, the customer is sent and reads information concerning the product in his/her state, compared with the Internet, the customer receives and reads information concerning the product in his/her state; and
2. The transaction is conducted in the customer's state. With a catalog, the customer is typically at his/her state of residence and phones the retail operation to place an order --- with the Internet, the customer is typically at his/her state of residence and communicates with the retail operation, via a similar mode of transmission, to place an order.
If transactions via the Internet are to be taxed, it should be done fairly --- only taxation if the customer resides in a state where the retail operation has a physical operation: like mail-order sales.
--------------
"There ought to be limits to freedom"
People don't live off medicaid,you moron!You're talking about welfare. And I'm sure we are all impressed by how AMERICAN and HARDWORKING you are. Give me a break.
If a European customer orders goods from Company A in the US, who provides European Customs the sales figures? Does the burden fall on the citizen to show registers of the transaction to the local customs officials? Also, what if the transaction was confirmed electronically, and the company to circumvent the EU law decided not to include hard copies of receipts? How then would customs enforce this rule?
No details on how this will be enforced.
No shit. Only way it can be is with the active cooperation of each government. And the US has case law regarding this sort of nonsense. Good luck to 'em.
So whoever talks about a loophole, doesn't know the harshness of Luxembourgish customs. (I think they have nothing better to do)
Ahhh...the great dumpster continuum. Many a free computer will be found there. -- sowth (748135)
"I have worked my ass off to get out of the freaking gutter I started in and keep a decent job"
Is this true, you know what it's like to be from the gutter? If so, what got you there, and what got you out? How easy would it be for someone else in the gutter to do the same thing? It really disgusts me to see such a blatantly ignorant attitude of "Well, I got mine. No, get your own". This type of behaviour will continue to hold humanity from evolving into something greater.
but I don't wanna drop a penny on any poor sap that is fixed on feeling sorry for themselves and looking for a handout.
This is really disturbing, that human life is not even worth a penny to you. Again, how can humanity evolve when we're willing to neglect each other without any remorse. Will humanity ever learn how to care for each other?
How the heck to you calculate value added on software? I'm not sure if labor is considered a raw material for VAT purposes, but that's basically all software is. (I'm also not sure if overhead like hardware, buldings, heating, etc. are covered in VAT.)
If you look at simple margins (roughtly equivalent to value add?) on software, customers of companies like Microsoft are going to have to pay a heck of a lot of taxes since much of their sofware products have margins above 80%!
Lastly, the following situation is exectly why there are so many US companies incorporated in the tiny state of Delaware. The EU will have to learn to deal with situations like that.
"But member states blocked that idea [of a single EU-wide VAT]. They feared companies would all set up for business in low-tax Luxembourg."
Give serendipity a chance.
Are the EU countries going to collect sales tax for the individual states in the US when US residents but goods from companies in the EU? How are they going to track where the purchaser is? The sales tax varies not only from state to state, but often from county to county within the states. The EU has no intention of having their companies collect sales taxes for the States in the US. This is one sided legislation on people over which they have no authority.
How can they FORCE you to comply though?
y r most of the gummi bears, in the package, red
Why exactly shouldn't someone pay tax JUST because they order stuff on the internet? Should the tax system *really* encourage people to ship stuff over the atlantic to avoid VAT? Is that economically efficient? VAT is a fact of life for everyone in the EU, it's like sales tax (but more expensive). Much as I'd love to escape it, most people who don't use the internet are stuck with it, so why should we be any different?
:-(
:-) (Actually they complain that their governemnts are self-serving incompedent little SOBs. As do Brits, and Yanks, And Russians, and Japanese... I think we're all probably right!)
In any case the EU has a very easy way of making companies pay the tax - merchant banks. Banks transfer money from one country to another. They HAVE to have offices and permits in both the EU and the USA. Banks can just refuse to provide USA to EU transactions to firms that don't comply, and they'll try hard to make it VERY easy for firms to comply.
In any case, VAT is uniform (17.5%) in the EU, so there's only one tax area to deal with. USA had 13 sales taxes last count!
This said, VAT is not the most intelligent tax in the world - everything from typing services to telephone calls get treated the same! There are so many accounting tricks from this that it's just not funny
P.S. I live with 2 French and 1 German. None of them show any signs of trying to spread world socialism