Slashdot Mirror
Microsoft vs. Northwest Schools Part III
SymphonicMan writes: "As previously discussed on Slashdot, Microsoft threatened an audit for the 24 largest school districts in the Northwest. Now it appears they may be backing down, according to Steve Duin, the Oregonian columnist who orginally brought this to all of our attention in April. Not only that, he writes that Portland Public Schools is opening 16 Linux computer labs across the districts, at half the cost of a Microsoft-equipped lab. Looks like this might be more than just a PR victory for open source. I'm a senior in one of the districts (Beaverton) included in the audit, and our staff is still going crazy trying to comply. But with districts across Oregon facing major budget shortfalls due to the poor economy, removing the pressure of this audit would be very welcome."
True, not only is this a PR victory for Linux, but more youth will be exposed to Linux and not only will they learn how to use a different operating system, they'll also pick up the abilities to adapt to learning new OSes. In time, this trend can be picked up in schools around the nation. In time, kids will show their parents how to use Linux, just as ten years ago, kids showed their parents how to use Windows.
Slashdot Hypocrisy at work?
They would give away operating systems to schools, so that they could compete with the absurd dominance of Mac in schools.
Then the students would grow up learning MS, and would be more likely to purchase/be dependent on it later on.
I don't see what was wrong with Apple IIe's in the class anyhow...
So, people "free to innovate" (GNU, Linux, OSS etc. hackers) in a "free market" (USA) have started to win. Interesting.
I'm out of my tree just now but please feel free to leave a banana.
$5 / month hosted VPS on linux = awesome!
Give me your children until the age of 12 and they will be mine forever.
During the American Revolutionary war, the British consistantly believed that the colonies were full of loyalist supporters. When they found far fewer loyalists than they hoped for, they hired indians to fight for them. Suddenly, the large number of people in the middle swung over to support ... the rebels. Oops.
=brian
In my school district, we are facing even more budget cuts, yet I never hear anyone talk about how to reduce costs other than cutting back on salaries or materials. We should be cutting back on other costs like electricity and software. By using 12v lighting, and putting solar panels on the roof of every school we could save a lot of cash. By requiring special permits for not using free (as in beer) software, we could save money there too.
The reason I emphasise the use of "free" in the monetary sense is that I'm talking about school budgets, not software philosophy. Of course once people are into using free (as in beer) software, then you can more easilly talk to them about free (as in speech) software.
t'nera semordnilap
I read Duin's article this morning, & one item that he emphasized -- & hasn't gotten any attention -- was that MS pulled this same tactic with other school systems across the US. As a direct result Randy Baker, the tech coordinator for 16 school districts (& 12,000 end users) in central Iowa, ``completely dumped Microsoft last summer and migrated everything to Linux."
Anybody have more details about this migration?
Geoff
I think I see a trend here. Maybe for them it really would be easier to muzzle the entire internet than to produce p
In order to fulfill my high school's community service requirements, I decided to volunteer at a local Head Start program for underprivliged children. It was a great feeling to work there and see the smiles on the faces of the children when I would show up in the morning, knowing that there was not much else to be happy about while living in abject poverty. They even had a few old computers (I believe 486s) running Windows 95 for the children to learn on. I always look back upon those last two weeks of my sophomore year (which were dedicated to allowing students to pursue their community service projects) with much fondness.
Well, the next year, when the time to register for community service projects rolled around again, I went to see my service counselor about helping at Head Start again. However, I was shocked at what she told me. Apparently, the Head Start program had to be shut down in the beginning of the school year because Microsoft had decided to audit them and found that they didn't have nearly enough licenses for Windows to be running them on all of the 486s in the school (which were donated by a bank, IIRC). The legal costs alone bankrupted the program, and a bunch of little children will now miss yet another opportunity to enrich themselves and perhaps leave the downward spiral of destitute poverty.
Someone out there, somewhere, made 5 bucks selling IE to this guy. He is to be saluted.
Finally, math books without any of that base 6 crap in them.
There is an advantage to teaching kids on multiple operating systems. However Unix is not at all suitable for general introductory courses. If you have highly motivated and intelligent kids they could probably learn on anything, including JCL. But most kids are not in that category (just as well or else our skills would not be in the same demand).
I suspect that this is simply a guy who wants to wage religious war rather than someone who wants to do the right thing for the kids. He will be lauded on slashdot but how much will the kids learn? Will they look at the csh command structure and conclude that computers are very hard to use, mysterious and probably deliberately so and resist using them? I suspect so.
US education is too full of people persuing their own agendas at the expense of the kids. The creationists want to ram their religious propaganda down everyone's craw. There are quack educational theories calling themselves liberal and even more quackish ones calling themselves traditional. In some parts of the US recess has been abolished - ignoring several centuries of experience and all psychological studies that show that kids have a limited attention span and will learn more with regular breaks.
When I started with computers the machines were much less powerful than anything in use today. But the big advantage of learning on an 8K PET computer is that you could quickly get the feeling that you understood how it worked. That is not true of Linux or Windows which are both overly complex.
Looking for an Information Security student project suggestion?
Try http://dotcrimeManifesto.com/
- They'll have a longer product cycle (Macs last forever and retain their value much better than cobbled-together PCs), which means the district won't have to upgrade their hardware nearly as often.
- They'll upgrade their software for much less than with a Windows solution and they won't be compelled to upgrade.
- Macs are already entrenched in education for a good reason: they're ease of use is legendary. Quartz is, without a doubt, the best user interface ever.
- There is a plethora of commercial applications for Mac OS. These are generally easier to use and are better-supported than Free software applications.
- They're inexpensive. You can already get an iMac for $799, and the education discounts that Apple gives are significant.
So, while I don't want to start a flame war here, I do believe that Apple is the most logical solution for education. While Linux is an excellent OS for those who love choice, freedom and hacking (in the "programming" context), it isn't really ready for widespread use on the desktops of non-technical users."I don't know that atheists should be considered citizens, nor should they be considered patriots." - George Bush
However, if they are learning the "Business" side of the systems, they will be sorely lacking in how to run MS based Windows applications, which apparently is what 90% of the computers in the world run.
I have to applaud the efforts of the schools themselves, being as I live in the area and do understand the needs of the schools (although I don't feel it is as bad as everyone says it is here), and I think saving money now and in the future is the best approach. As long as the curriculum meets the needs of the students in real world applications and approaches.
Linux will at least give the students opportunity to learn about computers, thereby negating the initial "fear" that most people still have. It is a good start, but until the industry itself changes, the course can only be considered "generic" in the sense that it is NOT teaching what is in the workplace nor what the industry is doing.
it may not be the best approach, but it is definitely a start.You keep going until you die..."Me".
in eastern iowa (scott) we run linux on all server machines, in the sail room, and I think they are contemplating replacing the library computers.
The 'find a book' computers in the library are running os/2 if I recal.
No, that would harm National Security and aid Terrorists(tm).
A Microsoft executive swore on a bible that was the truth.
Who cares about compatibility for kids? They're LEARNING, not doing anything useful. You could give 'em a Trash80 and teach them to program on it. How 'bout an apple II - teach them to code the 6502 by hand! We don't have them design a car, or audit a company, or transplant a heart, or file a brief to a court, or perform with a touring symphony. We teach them reading, writing, math, history, music. We let them PRETEND to do real things so they can apply their basic knowledge.
...I shall sit in a boat all day, drink beer, and come home smelling like fish)
They don't need Microsoft Office, they need to learn how to use a word processor, spreadsheet, database. They don't need AutoCAD. They don't Pro/ENGINEER. They don't need Timberline. They DO need to learn how to learn a computer program. They would do well to learn how a program works.
Teach them the basics, and don't throw away money on programs made, and priced, for the business market. If Linux works and keeps the budget under control - use it. I don't really care. I think there should be several OSs in each school, and each should be taught - at least the basics.
Give me a fish, and I shall eat for a day. Teach me to fish, and I shall eat for a lifetime. (or is it
Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
At first glance, schools are a dream target for the BSA. They have lots of machines, minimal system administration, and plenty of rogue software installations from faculty & students. If you're looking for piracy, you won't have to look very hard if you visit a school. From the "Let's justify our existance" perspective of BSA, schools are a target that is too juicy to be ignored.
But there's a catch: Schools are chronically short of funds. Paying the BSA "fines" or submitting to extortion is not part of anyone's budget. Never underestimate the penny-pinching creativity of a school system. They won't hesitate to throw labor at a problem to make the short-term cost go away. Considering their resources (teachers on salary and students as slave labor), they have inexpensive man-hours available if there is cash to be saved.
What starts out as BSA's dream turns into a nightmare when the schools use their resources to migrate to Linux. For starters, M$ loses the upgrade revenue. Then we have students learning non-M$ technology. Parents who discover that the school finds M$ to be very expensive. If the schools are successful in ditching M$, they become role models for parents who face the same BSA nonsense at work.
Uhh... I guess you're still not sure of it then. (psssstt!! MacOS X is not Linux.... it's BSD!)
T
---- It puts the lotion on its skin or else it gets the hose again. It does this whenever it's told.
Look at it this way. Microsoft forced several school districts to switch to Linux. If Microsoft keeps this practice up, schools which are afraid to stand up to M$ will eventually be running either Mac OS X on Macs or Linux on their PCs. Microsoft will have to focus its marketing strategy on maintaining its hold on the home user market, because their software audits would have alienated their business, educational, and public service customers.
At the risk of being slammed in moderation, thank goodness they are adopting Linux. Not because it's the way to go, but because it means they are no longer possibly pirating software.
... they are. Many people believe that for some reason Microsoft is evil because they charge for their product. They aren't.
... school districts crying poor ... Microsoft wanting money ...
... do they do it legally or do they do it on the sly.
Many many many people believe that tactics used are heacy handed
It's when the two get together you have horrible perceptions. Heavy handed tactics
Going to Linux solves the money issue and most of the potential piracy issues. Is it a victory for open source? Not so much as it is a victory for living within your means.
It's a choice for schools
I say legally.
People need jobs, and if this is the case, then lets get these jobs filled. Not only would you be working in these times of economic strife, but to also be helping in the "cause"?!?
Heck, if the jobs were there, I would be applying myself. The problem seems to be that the school workers have become entrenched in the system, and are waiting for that guaranteed 8% retirement every cycle. Would you give up a job that regardless of what the rest of the world was doing, you were guaranteed 8% paid to your retirement EACH and every year?Until these people (who are as inept as you say) can be replaced with people who know what they are doing, this is a moot point.
You keep going until you die..."Me".
of complying to EULA's.
License mgt costs Admin time sure but, getting notice of an audit could cost untold sums in legal and additional admin (checking to make sure, real sure) time in preparation.
I hope every school board across the nation is at least taking a look at this!
Gizmos Gagets For Ninjas
Linus wouldn't do that, nor should he. He's much to laid back and has far less of a stake in the GPL than RMS. RMS would be much more amusing in that role, anyway. Once he got hold of them he'd never let go, and he'd make a ton of noise about it, too.
Under capitalism man exploits man. Under communism it's the other way around.
OpenOffice could be handed out for free at the start of the semester (and AFAIK StarOffice, too because even version 6 is free for education).
I't strange that some people would actually rather let students pay for MS Office.
No, I don't think they'll be running back to their KDE.. Think about it, I don't run back to CP/M or DOS 3.0 which is the UI that I grew up with. I DEFINATELY do not run back to Windows 3.0, Mac System 1, etc,etc.. Although I don't think these kids will see as significant a change that I saw growing up, there will be new UI's comming along and generally speaking, each new UI is better than the last. I think that these kids atleast will have grow up with computers, many of which my generation did not. That already gives them the edge. It's not like us old folks that have ALWAYS had a computer around.
The truth of the matter is, windows is perfect for what schools teach (which isn't much). They teach 99% of students to be typists, capable of using word and mucking around a bit in excel.
Which is strange when you think about it... the age of the typewriter is dead, there will come a time when we don't have to employ wageslaves to type dead trees back into electronic form.
So, what would you teach kids if not teaching them to be typing monkeys incapable of truly using a computer? Me, I'd dig those apple IIe's out of the closet, and teach them assembly language on the 6502. Teach them to write a compiler, and write their own programs with that compiler. The first kid to write a video game in such a fashion, gets an A+ and doesn't have to do anything but play the game the rest of the year. I'd teach them how to interface to that crappy 8bit bus, and have them dream up things to interface to it. We'd build them in class. They hate crappy resolution, with only a few colors? Maybe we'd take a crack at building an SVGA card for it.
And maybe, just maybe, those who passed that class would be eligible for the classes that use Mac OSX or linux on the g4 powermacs. Why those? Because x86 stinks, even if the rest of the hardware that goes with it is tolerable nowdays.
So, unless you were serious... tell me what *is wrong* with using Apple IIe's in the classroom.
- "Randy Baker" linux iowa
- intitle:iowa intitle:linux schools
- intitle:linux 16 districts iowa
- As well as many others
You'd think that if they migrated 12,000 users to Linux almost a year ago that someone would have written an article or something.I suspect that the Iowa schools just migrated some/all of their servers to Linux and the article neglected to mention that "completely dumped Microsoft" meant that they completely dumped IIS in favor of Apache on Linux.
So, I may be missing something, but...
What authority does Microsoft or the BSA (or any private enterprise, for that matter) have to come in and 'audit' some business, government entity or charity? I can understand it if they have probable cause and go in under a warrent, accompanying law enforcement. But, just choosing a school district and saying "I'm going to audit you"? Why doesn't the district just say "Go to hell"? It seems to me that Microsoft has as much right to do that as Madonna does to come into my house and 'audit' my music collection for illegal copies of her music.
Sure, piracy is a big problem for the software industry, but there still needs to be some reasonable evidence of wrongdoing before you can inflict a search on somebody.
I hope you put it all into your BSA defence fund...
I lived in the Beaverton area for a couple of years, it's not the kind of place that's going to be easily bullied by MSFT, or anybody else for that matter. One of the nicknames for this area was the "silicon forest", a takeoff on the Bay Area's high-tech reputation. There's a very high ratio of technologically clueful folks there. There's also an unusually high level of disdain for MSFT, especially among the Intel folk I used to work with. I never did understand it, why Intel engineers disliked MSFT so much. Anyways, it was up there I got introduced to Linux for the first time.
But it would really surprise me to see the schools that got audited dump MSFT lock, stock, and barrel anytime soon. The only clueless folk I ever did any business with up there were the schools. Stupifyingly dense and criminally arrogant. Thankfully, they're also almost totally inneffective as administrators so they won't be able to keep Linux out.
Say whatever else you want to about him, but you've got to give RMS this: selling free software (including linux) on the basis of anything other than freedom is risky business.
I remember once, just out of highschool with an awful sales job, (for home pop machines, if you can believe it), my sleazy boss used to always say: never try to sell people on cost. They'll get bogged down with numbers and you'll never make the sale. Sell them on xxxx (in that case convenience) and let people work out the numbers for themselves. His logic was that numbers were easy to fudge when you're trying to rationalize something, and better they play around to get the numbers to make themselves happy than they catch you playing around with them.
In the context of free software, the same logic almost holds:
-for a big enough or strategic enough account, you can't beat MSFT on financial terms. That is, they can always either reduce/forgoe the licensing fees or heck, _pay you_ to use the stuff if they want it badly enough. (Just ask Miguel about Vicente Fox and the Mexican initiative.) You can't, (well, _I_ can't), outbid Microsoft.
-on technical merit, they can argue any particular point into the ground, or even, for big enough or strategic enough cases, find what's broken and 'fix' it. (gasp)
But sell freedom and you're onto something. (You _may_ even have people/past-victims making the technical/financial arguments for themselves.) The best part is that, when they use sledgehammers like the BSA, MSFT make the case for you.
Try as they might, MSFT is going to have a hard time erasing the memory of these audits/sales-tools from the overworked/underfunded school systems. Sure, they let you slide on the licensing now... but stick with them and you'll never be free of the threat of the audit. (And that whether you're in compliance or not.)
Changing to Macs would require hardware changes too. Remember, the problem is not ideology, but $$$ -- they simply don't have money to spare on new hardware.
Infuriate left and right
"So, in conclusion, Free Software is a lot like the no-name products that you see at grocery stores. It is cheaper, but you get what you pay for, an inferior product."
We have three types of servers at my job: Windows, Linux, and Solaris. Ranking them by reliability, Linux is #1 in the uptime stats, Windows is #2, and Solaris is dead last (due to a nasty recurring hardware problem). If closed source is the way to go, how did the Linux servers beat the others? You won't find many people who claim Windows to be more reliable than Linux.
From the article: In February, Microsoft CEO Steve Ballmer said he considered the "Linux phenomenon" the top threat to Microsoft's plans for world domination.
I really hope that was radically paraphrased.
The story is even better than it appears. Check out The K-12 Linux Project, also in Portland, Oregon. (Moderators: Please don't mod down people who mention this project in other contexts. Mod them up.)
Linux Terminal software is used with diskless workstations to create a 5 workstation network for under $1,000.
Here is a quote: "All applications run on the terminal server. The workstations are "thin." They have no software or hard drives. Thin clients are perfect for schools because they are easy to install and require little maintenance. They are reliable and immune to malicious tampering and viruses".
Intel is giving free processors to schools.
It's all set up and ready to go. Just download the software and follow the instructions.
"The Multnomah Education Service District [Portland, Oregon, again] has moved most of it's core network services to Linux. Linux powers DNS, DHCP, mail relays, proxy servers, web filters, and directory services for the 45,000 administrators, teachers, and students within our agency and the school districts we support . For our agency and a couple of our districts, Linux powers the web, mail, FTP, and file servers."
I was told that it took 4 full-time people to maintain the MESD system when it was using Microsoft software. Now it takes 1 person half time.
Government administrators should note that it is their duty to insure that all government work be done on completely open systems. The citizens and taxpayers of a democracy must have full access to all documents, even 40 or a hundred years from now. There is NO room in a democracy for proprietary, hidden ways of doing things.
Keep in mind that the officials that buy computers actually don't. They receive their information from their technical staff.
Which means, if the school has more of a PC base (the subject of this topic since MS was trying to audit them), then the IT person would probably consider Linux because it would be the path of least resistance--they already have PC hardware, so why rip it out to replace it with Macintosh? Have the students use OpenOffice and Konqueror. Problem solved.
If the school has a mix or a majority of Mac OS systems, an IT person may consider simply ripping Internet Explorer and Word off the systems, and use Netscape and AppleWorks instead. Problem solved again.
I don't understand the Linux zealots who feel that going Apple or Microsoft "locks" them into anything. By using Linux (as in the kernel, not the OS), aren't LINUX USERS "locked" into a single kernel, unable to change (or highly recommended not to change it for fear of instability?) There is no such thing as a democracy in the computer world. You have to pick a side and use what that side offers you. Nothing says you have to stay on that side, and there may be more options and freedoms available on some sides (Apple, BSD, Red Hat, etc.) than others (Microsoft). Try getting a free multiuser licenses from Microsoft. On the other hand, try opening an embedded Outlook mail document inside a Word document in Mac OS X. There is relative good on each side. Don't piss on that of which you have no clue.
And another thing to these fact-challenged people in this topic: While Apple no longer has the vast 75-90% majority of their computers in schools as they did in the '80s, they still have a very large presence overall, especially in the K-12 market. Dell and Apple are the largest percentage holders in a virtual heat for about a year now. The rest is broken up by other manufacturers.
Don't just say "Windows" when you mean to say a PC brand: If you break down the market shares by brand in various areas, Apple still has a presence, and a significant visionary one if nothing else.
Vos teneo officium eram periculosus ut vos recipero is.
With projects like these the migration from windows to Linux should be easier.
Copied from http://k12linux.org
K12LTSP is based on RedHat Linux and the LTSP terminal server packages. It's easy to install and configure. It's distributed under the GNU General Public License . That means it's free and it's based on Open Source software.
Once installed K12LTSP lets you boot diskless workstations from an applications server. You can use old PC's as diskless clients or buy new ones for under $200 each.
All applications run on the terminal server. Workstations are "thin." They have no software or hard drives. Thin-clients are perfect for schools because they are easy to install and require little maintenance. They are reliable and immune to malicious tampering and viruses.
We've included a host of useful applications that will make you productive right away.
Nautilus file manager
Mozilla browser with Java(tm) and Flash (tm) support
Ximian Evolution E-Mail, calendar and contact manager
Adobe Acrobat Reader
OpenOffice
K-Office
Gimp
AbiWord
Auto configuration for many PCI based sound cards
Auto configuration for both PXE and BOOTP clients
File sharing for both Windows and Macintosh networks
Much more...
Actually the problem is that Microsoft is right, just not from the perspective they're trying to say they're right from. As a software vendor you can't make a long-term business giving away free software. You can make a business as a consulting house charging for services with free software being one of the tools you use to deliver those services, but not as a software vendor.
Thing is, the customers aren't software vendors. To the customer the software is a tool used to do something. Microsoft's business model is irrelevant to the customer, except where it affects whether they can continue to get the tools they need in working condition. So whether Microsoft can see a business model in selling free software or not doesn't affect whether the schools see a business model in educating students using free software.
The common thing that all these "rip it out and replace it with XXX" threads are missing is that the license agreement that the schools signed does not count the number of installed copies of MS-Windows. It counts the number of PCs and they pay MS a fixed (lower) price per PC.
So uninstalling MS-Windows and installing linux on 5000 PCs saves them precisely zero dollars.
What they should instead be doing is changing from a "count all PCs and pay us for them" licensing model to a harder-to-manage but cheaper in the long run model of paying only for the MS-Windows copies (and related MS software) they have installed.
Any signs this is happening?
There's a phrase used in American history which mentions the first shot of the American Revolution was "the shot heard around the world".
:) We just need the press to pick this up.... Dan Gilmour, CNN, USAToday, etc where are you?
The Microsoft audit policy might just be known as "the backfire heard around the world". With Linux stability, usefulness, and capabilities where they are today, there's not much stopping most public school systems from switching all their classrooms and labs to Linux. Maybe they'll need one or two with Wine or even a WinFrame system or two but it'll still be cheaper running Linux and "look ma, no more audit threats"
BANG! What a backfire.
LoB
"Anyone who stands out in the middle of a road looks like roadkill to me." --Linus
What I hear a lot is "We want our home computer to be like the ones that the kids use in school."
So if the schools are using Linux, then parents might well start to use it at home. And the Linux snowball gets a bit bigger...
HH
Seeing as how KDE cloned the Microsoft Windows interface, endusers should be able to use either one probably configured. Everybody wants an interface that is familiar, and that's why KDE has the best shot at existing Windows users IMHO. I'm guessing that nobody would seriously consider migrating Windows users over to something like blackbox or MacOS unless you have a big training budget. You can get away with little to no additional training using something like GNOME or KDE.
Is there another business in the country with such a callous attitude toward any of its customers?
Probably the tobacco companies.
--
"Outlook not so good." That magic 8-ball knows everything! I'll ask about Exchange Server next.
We all know that the package of Macaroni and
Cheese sitting on the shelf tastes nowhere near the same as the appealing package of Kraft
Dinner!
You've GOT to be Canadian.
How can using linux halve the cost of a computer lab when the cost of operating system software is typically $100 per machine or less and the cost of hardware is typically $800 or more?
The 'retail' cost of Windows XP is $299 ( no upgrade, just raw price ). There is a volume licensing program but this doesn't give prices out.
'Retail' for Office XP for Students/Teachers is $149.
Assume they give a 60+% discount on XP, the total for both is $249. Hardware is cheap - WalMart is selling naked PCs for $399. The price of the 'standard' MS software which people expect is more than 50% of the cost of new hardware.
creation science book
The explanation needs to be longer. They are only running part of their services using Linux, only the services listed. There are still file servers at other locations. Services not listed still use other software, also.
I called Eric Harrison and got the correct information. I was rushing to write my first post to the story (I should have been working for a customer.) and I made two mistakes. The correct statistic is that the administration time was cut in half. Also, they replaced other Unix software as well as Microsoft software.
Note that the people who help users are in a separate facility, and are not counted. The statistic is only for admin of their computers. Programming and other functions are not included.
Eric Harrison and Paul Nelson did the work. They are very friendly. Contact them for a better explanation. Obviously, I can't post their e-mail addresses here.
Another error: The word "insure" should have been "ensure".
Many student users don't "learn Linux". They just write reports and term papers. Open Office is fine for this, and less quirky than Microsoft Word.
One problem with Microsoft software is that users dink around with the OS instead of doing their school work. In that case, it helps that Linux is less well known.
See my earlier post, 5 workstations and a server, less than $1,000. (#3561613) for more explanation.
because my AP US History text book said that the British Army sent about 20-25,000 troops to North America to fight the revolutionary war and that with the recruiting and drafting that resulted from the declaration of independence, the total global forces of the British Army reached over 100,000 back then.
That's a very good question that very few people bother to ask. There is a clause in their so-called "license" which states that they are allowed to "audit" you; and that clause, presumably, gives Microsoft the right to send in the enforcers. However, legally, it does not hold any water. Even if we assume that EULA is enforcible as a whole (a dubious assumption), that particular clause would be thrown out if the matter ever went to court.
This "auditing" clause essentially amounts to a search without a search warrant by a non-government agency. In case you didn't know, even the police cannot come to your house and search you whenever they feel like it. They must first obtain a search warrant, which is signed by a judge. And to get the warrant, police need to show that there is a likelihood of finding the desired evidence.
There are two problems with BSA/Microsoft audits. First they are not the police, so they have no authority to conduct the searches. Their "license" doesn't hold any water -- there are certain rights that you cannot sign away. Second, even if the BSA was ever annointed as the official copyright enforcement police, they would still need to show that there is some likelihood of finding unauthorised copies of software at whatever school/business they were trying to search. Random searches wouldn't be permitted. BSA admits -- nay, brags! -- that the vast majority of their tipoffs comes from disgruntled employees. In a court of law such "evidence" would be dismissed as hearsay. And that's without even getting into the issue of good-faith efforts of the companies to stay compliant with the license vs. the unauthorised installations by individual employees (or, perhaps, outright sabotage -- see note above about disgruntled employees).
So, as you can see, legally, Microsoft enforcers have no leg to stand on. BSA backed off the few companies that did decide to fight it.
___
If you think big enough, you'll never have to do it.
If the schools are successful in ditching M$, they become role models for parents who face the same BSA nonsense at work. (emphasis added by me)
It all sounds like the beginning of a big success story for Open-Source. However most stories are judged by their ending. Even faced by the threat of the BSA audit the schools should take care that the migration goes as smoothly as possible. It would only help Microsoft if some schools became spectacular examples of a failed migration. Being under pressure from the BSA and a tight schedule didn't help here, but now that MS has backed up a bit the schools (that want to migrate, and not face the BSA again) should take a little time to ensure everything goes over as smooth as possible.
Anyway the schools should realize that the BSA-raid may be called off for now, but it can hit them any time in the future (after a little grace period). Only then the BSA will probably pick them one by one to avoid all that publicity (divide and conquer).
"By the way if anyone here is in advertising or marketing... kill yourself." -- Bill Hicks
Seriously, this is good stuff.
Microsoft has, where do you want to go today? Or more recently, one degree of seperation.
Linux has 150 flavors and counting. Is linux be-all end-all? Oh hell no, but nothing is... however, on the other hand, linux is:
There, 3 flavors out of 150. Each of them has been very useful in my life, and I know I've only touched the tip of the iceberg.
So? Mac OS X is way more stable than either MacOS 9 or Windows 9x. Just like 2K and XP eat 9x's lunch. Real preemptive multitasking beats fakey preemptive multitasking (9x) and cooperative multitasking (classic MacOS) anyday.
Linux beats all for stability though...it is a joy to see one instance of Konqui sig-11 but the others, as well as the rest of the OS, remain standing. If IE takes a dump, it STILL takes 2K down. Dunno about how it is on OS X.
Knowledge is power. Knowledge shared is power multiplied.
Teach them to love computers, and to do real things with them. Don't waste time on something that they'll pick up on their own anyway, given enough practice.
I can think of nothing sadder than a highscool kid sitting in front of a p3 with an ungodly amount of ram and hard drive, just numbly typing in thoughtless crap from a typing book.
Except maybe that my tax dollars bought the machine.
Danny.
I have written over 900 book reviews
The few people I talked to locally that would have the authority to arrange something like this were lukewarm to the offer. "We'll get back to you" and "I'm not sure what our policy is on such things". Single school district. Maybe it would be different elsewhere.
Apt-get and up2date by themselves ought to save any school district quite a bit. Given the excessing staffing I've seen at various MS shops, I'd expect similar savings across the board. Three places I've worked closely with during the last two years could not, even with IT staff of 5-8 FTE each, keep their MS-Exchange servers running a whole week. And that's even with nearly 100% neglect of the workstations.
All the problems generate mindshare. No one notices or cares about things that run like they were on rails. When was the last time you thought about the plumbing in your building, or the janitorial staff, or the switches in your POTS network? The MS-service packs, anxious waiting for service packs, emergency runs to rebuild the server in the middle of the day all generate mindshare.
Lastly, KDE and Gnome are as easy or easier to use than MS-Windows these days. Bonus points for ease of use if the tech installing it figures out what it's going to be used for and sets up the menus accordingly, adds short cuts and removes distractions.
Beta is broken and the link to classic doesn't work. Stop wasting our time or there won't be anybody left here.
Has everyone forgotten the terms of the anti-trust settlement? I'm guessing that MS wants to put pressure on the schools in a misguided attempt to gain their support--MS believes that schools would prefer donated MS software to the BSA breathing down their necks.
The real question is in how many school districts this is backfiring, resulting in migrations to Linux.
Yes, that was the same East India Tea Company we had all the trouble with over here, too . .
hawk
[the fact that Word doesn't read StarOffice's native format] could pose a problem for people to cart their files back and forth between school and home using removable media.
And .txt is bad why?
Will I retire or break 10K?
They don't always need sound cards
How are you supposed to run "Talking Reader Rabbit" or other K-5 literacy software without a sound card? The latest programs support only DirectX compatible audio hardware, which does not include the PC's internal speaker.
or 17 inch monitors
What? Do you want to back to the Apple II and 10-inch displays? Kids can't very easily read tiny print.
They don't need CDROM burners
Without a CD-RW drive, how are kids supposed to take their work home with them?
Will I retire or break 10K?
If he is, we disown him.
#define X(x,y) x##y
Peter Cordes ; e-mail: X(peter@cordes ,