Slashdot Mirror
Microsoft vs. Northwest Schools Part III
SymphonicMan writes: "As previously discussed on Slashdot, Microsoft threatened an audit for the 24 largest school districts in the Northwest. Now it appears they may be backing down, according to Steve Duin, the Oregonian columnist who orginally brought this to all of our attention in April. Not only that, he writes that Portland Public Schools is opening 16 Linux computer labs across the districts, at half the cost of a Microsoft-equipped lab. Looks like this might be more than just a PR victory for open source. I'm a senior in one of the districts (Beaverton) included in the audit, and our staff is still going crazy trying to comply. But with districts across Oregon facing major budget shortfalls due to the poor economy, removing the pressure of this audit would be very welcome."
True, not only is this a PR victory for Linux, but more youth will be exposed to Linux and not only will they learn how to use a different operating system, they'll also pick up the abilities to adapt to learning new OSes. In time, this trend can be picked up in schools around the nation. In time, kids will show their parents how to use Linux, just as ten years ago, kids showed their parents how to use Windows.
Slashdot Hypocrisy at work?
They would give away operating systems to schools, so that they could compete with the absurd dominance of Mac in schools.
Then the students would grow up learning MS, and would be more likely to purchase/be dependent on it later on.
I don't see what was wrong with Apple IIe's in the class anyhow...
So, people "free to innovate" (GNU, Linux, OSS etc. hackers) in a "free market" (USA) have started to win. Interesting.
I'm out of my tree just now but please feel free to leave a banana.
$5 / month hosted VPS on linux = awesome!
Ten years from now these kids will be wanting an interface that is familair. They will run back to KDE their whole lives if they can (if other people can read thier office docs and they can read others).
this sig is deprecated
Give me your children until the age of 12 and they will be mine forever.
During the American Revolutionary war, the British consistantly believed that the colonies were full of loyalist supporters. When they found far fewer loyalists than they hoped for, they hired indians to fight for them. Suddenly, the large number of people in the middle swung over to support ... the rebels. Oops.
=brian
In my school district, we are facing even more budget cuts, yet I never hear anyone talk about how to reduce costs other than cutting back on salaries or materials. We should be cutting back on other costs like electricity and software. By using 12v lighting, and putting solar panels on the roof of every school we could save a lot of cash. By requiring special permits for not using free (as in beer) software, we could save money there too.
The reason I emphasise the use of "free" in the monetary sense is that I'm talking about school budgets, not software philosophy. Of course once people are into using free (as in beer) software, then you can more easilly talk to them about free (as in speech) software.
t'nera semordnilap
I read Duin's article this morning, & one item that he emphasized -- & hasn't gotten any attention -- was that MS pulled this same tactic with other school systems across the US. As a direct result Randy Baker, the tech coordinator for 16 school districts (& 12,000 end users) in central Iowa, ``completely dumped Microsoft last summer and migrated everything to Linux."
Anybody have more details about this migration?
Geoff
I think I see a trend here. Maybe for them it really would be easier to muzzle the entire internet than to produce p
In order to fulfill my high school's community service requirements, I decided to volunteer at a local Head Start program for underprivliged children. It was a great feeling to work there and see the smiles on the faces of the children when I would show up in the morning, knowing that there was not much else to be happy about while living in abject poverty. They even had a few old computers (I believe 486s) running Windows 95 for the children to learn on. I always look back upon those last two weeks of my sophomore year (which were dedicated to allowing students to pursue their community service projects) with much fondness.
Well, the next year, when the time to register for community service projects rolled around again, I went to see my service counselor about helping at Head Start again. However, I was shocked at what she told me. Apparently, the Head Start program had to be shut down in the beginning of the school year because Microsoft had decided to audit them and found that they didn't have nearly enough licenses for Windows to be running them on all of the 486s in the school (which were donated by a bank, IIRC). The legal costs alone bankrupted the program, and a bunch of little children will now miss yet another opportunity to enrich themselves and perhaps leave the downward spiral of destitute poverty.
Staroffice is windoze compatible ... and once in Staroffice format .. Why in the world would you want to switch back to Word format?
duh!!!
* Carthago Delenda Est *
Someone out there, somewhere, made 5 bucks selling IE to this guy. He is to be saluted.
Finally, math books without any of that base 6 crap in them.
Consider also the Free Software Office Suite, "Open Office." It seems to do a lot of things right.
However, it is still unable to open files made by the industry standard (and closed source) Microsoft
Office.
Weird, I just reviewed a 40 page Word 97 Document on this Linux laptop computer using OpenOffice 1.0. No problemo.
Am I missing some elaborate joke?
8-)
There is an advantage to teaching kids on multiple operating systems. However Unix is not at all suitable for general introductory courses. If you have highly motivated and intelligent kids they could probably learn on anything, including JCL. But most kids are not in that category (just as well or else our skills would not be in the same demand).
I suspect that this is simply a guy who wants to wage religious war rather than someone who wants to do the right thing for the kids. He will be lauded on slashdot but how much will the kids learn? Will they look at the csh command structure and conclude that computers are very hard to use, mysterious and probably deliberately so and resist using them? I suspect so.
US education is too full of people persuing their own agendas at the expense of the kids. The creationists want to ram their religious propaganda down everyone's craw. There are quack educational theories calling themselves liberal and even more quackish ones calling themselves traditional. In some parts of the US recess has been abolished - ignoring several centuries of experience and all psychological studies that show that kids have a limited attention span and will learn more with regular breaks.
When I started with computers the machines were much less powerful than anything in use today. But the big advantage of learning on an 8K PET computer is that you could quickly get the feeling that you understood how it worked. That is not true of Linux or Windows which are both overly complex.
Looking for an Information Security student project suggestion?
Try http://dotcrimeManifesto.com/
I believe "find the buffer overflow" is actually a Windows game .... some junior hacker seems to win a couple of times a month at the m,oment
man, those little kids are gonna be so screwed up it's not funny. U poor linux losers are gonna have them type in at a bash shell just to play reader rabbit. And what cool games does Linux? SENDMAIL? APACHE? Find the buffer overfollow? And don't mention that POS tuxracer.
Kids shouldn't be playing computer games anyway. This "Linux in the Classroom" business is a conspiricy to get kids playing outside again.
swear. if some of u would just get some sweet pussy, u could see how much that dirty hippie OS of your sucks.
Are you kidding? How do you think I get laid, anyway? Chicks dig Linux!
"I like to wear big boy pants."
What I'm saying is that most of the students probably use MSOffice or a similar product at home (not StarOffice). StarOffice files cannot be opened in Microsoft programs, so this could pose a problem for people to cart their files back and forth between school and home using removable media.
Karma: Excellent (fuck, even in the future moderation doesn't work!)
- They'll have a longer product cycle (Macs last forever and retain their value much better than cobbled-together PCs), which means the district won't have to upgrade their hardware nearly as often.
- They'll upgrade their software for much less than with a Windows solution and they won't be compelled to upgrade.
- Macs are already entrenched in education for a good reason: they're ease of use is legendary. Quartz is, without a doubt, the best user interface ever.
- There is a plethora of commercial applications for Mac OS. These are generally easier to use and are better-supported than Free software applications.
- They're inexpensive. You can already get an iMac for $799, and the education discounts that Apple gives are significant.
So, while I don't want to start a flame war here, I do believe that Apple is the most logical solution for education. While Linux is an excellent OS for those who love choice, freedom and hacking (in the "programming" context), it isn't really ready for widespread use on the desktops of non-technical users."I don't know that atheists should be considered citizens, nor should they be considered patriots." - George Bush
Hell, they'll get to play Oregon Trail and Odell Lake, and their crappy 486s at home will look sweeter than ever.
However, if they are learning the "Business" side of the systems, they will be sorely lacking in how to run MS based Windows applications, which apparently is what 90% of the computers in the world run.
I have to applaud the efforts of the schools themselves, being as I live in the area and do understand the needs of the schools (although I don't feel it is as bad as everyone says it is here), and I think saving money now and in the future is the best approach. As long as the curriculum meets the needs of the students in real world applications and approaches.
Linux will at least give the students opportunity to learn about computers, thereby negating the initial "fear" that most people still have. It is a good start, but until the industry itself changes, the course can only be considered "generic" in the sense that it is NOT teaching what is in the workplace nor what the industry is doing.
it may not be the best approach, but it is definitely a start.You keep going until you die..."Me".
I have done a lot of work in the Oregon Public schools. The real reason why Windows use is so wide spread is that schools can't draw the talent that is needed to maintain sound IT practices. Let's face it, if the schools are not paying the geeks, or the teachers for that matter, a competitive salary, then talented people will go elsewhere and the schools will get stuck with sub-standard geeks who only know microsoft. Think about it, would you want to make $3000 a month as a Network Engineer, Systems Administrator, Help Desk Technician/Tutor/Nanny? I don't.
in eastern iowa (scott) we run linux on all server machines, in the sail room, and I think they are contemplating replacing the library computers.
The 'find a book' computers in the library are running os/2 if I recal.
No, that would harm National Security and aid Terrorists(tm).
A Microsoft executive swore on a bible that was the truth.
Who cares about compatibility for kids? They're LEARNING, not doing anything useful. You could give 'em a Trash80 and teach them to program on it. How 'bout an apple II - teach them to code the 6502 by hand! We don't have them design a car, or audit a company, or transplant a heart, or file a brief to a court, or perform with a touring symphony. We teach them reading, writing, math, history, music. We let them PRETEND to do real things so they can apply their basic knowledge.
...I shall sit in a boat all day, drink beer, and come home smelling like fish)
They don't need Microsoft Office, they need to learn how to use a word processor, spreadsheet, database. They don't need AutoCAD. They don't Pro/ENGINEER. They don't need Timberline. They DO need to learn how to learn a computer program. They would do well to learn how a program works.
Teach them the basics, and don't throw away money on programs made, and priced, for the business market. If Linux works and keeps the budget under control - use it. I don't really care. I think there should be several OSs in each school, and each should be taught - at least the basics.
Give me a fish, and I shall eat for a day. Teach me to fish, and I shall eat for a lifetime. (or is it
Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
At first glance, schools are a dream target for the BSA. They have lots of machines, minimal system administration, and plenty of rogue software installations from faculty & students. If you're looking for piracy, you won't have to look very hard if you visit a school. From the "Let's justify our existance" perspective of BSA, schools are a target that is too juicy to be ignored.
But there's a catch: Schools are chronically short of funds. Paying the BSA "fines" or submitting to extortion is not part of anyone's budget. Never underestimate the penny-pinching creativity of a school system. They won't hesitate to throw labor at a problem to make the short-term cost go away. Considering their resources (teachers on salary and students as slave labor), they have inexpensive man-hours available if there is cash to be saved.
What starts out as BSA's dream turns into a nightmare when the schools use their resources to migrate to Linux. For starters, M$ loses the upgrade revenue. Then we have students learning non-M$ technology. Parents who discover that the school finds M$ to be very expensive. If the schools are successful in ditching M$, they become role models for parents who face the same BSA nonsense at work.
Uhh... I guess you're still not sure of it then. (psssstt!! MacOS X is not Linux.... it's BSD!)
T
---- It puts the lotion on its skin or else it gets the hose again. It does this whenever it's told.
Look at it this way. Microsoft forced several school districts to switch to Linux. If Microsoft keeps this practice up, schools which are afraid to stand up to M$ will eventually be running either Mac OS X on Macs or Linux on their PCs. Microsoft will have to focus its marketing strategy on maintaining its hold on the home user market, because their software audits would have alienated their business, educational, and public service customers.
At the risk of being slammed in moderation, thank goodness they are adopting Linux. Not because it's the way to go, but because it means they are no longer possibly pirating software.
... they are. Many people believe that for some reason Microsoft is evil because they charge for their product. They aren't.
... school districts crying poor ... Microsoft wanting money ...
... do they do it legally or do they do it on the sly.
Many many many people believe that tactics used are heacy handed
It's when the two get together you have horrible perceptions. Heavy handed tactics
Going to Linux solves the money issue and most of the potential piracy issues. Is it a victory for open source? Not so much as it is a victory for living within your means.
It's a choice for schools
I say legally.
"find the buffer overflow" is actually a Windows game .... some junior hacker seems to win a couple of times a month at the moment
Yes, and according to MS VP Jim Allchin, there are many more winners to come!
of complying to EULA's.
License mgt costs Admin time sure but, getting notice of an audit could cost untold sums in legal and additional admin (checking to make sure, real sure) time in preparation.
I hope every school board across the nation is at least taking a look at this!
Gizmos Gagets For Ninjas
I have been unsuccessfully attempting to persuade the local state college (where I have close tes as an ex-IT employee) to migrate their labs to Linux. The main problem with this venture is that it (the college) is a state controlled (duh) asset that must have certain proprietary applications available to students in order to satisfy certain contracts that it has made with organizations that bring in funding. I think that my next proposal will be a half-and-half Linux and Windows lab for testing. Anyone have any ideas? It is refreshing to see small successes like this one.
I wrote this letter to Mr Farrar, the managing editor of the Seattle Times on May 13. Mr. Farrar said he forwarded it to the Education and Technology editors, but I heard nothing after that and I have yet to see any report in the Times about Microsoft's threatening our local school systems with legal action. Here's the letter:
--
Microsoft is pressuring the 24 largest school districts in Washington and Oregon (including the Seattle school district) to adopt a new, expensive licensing contract despite having no evidence that the districts owe them anything at all.
Many of the schools' computers have been donated, and may not have all the original documentation, CDs, or license validation cards. Microsoft is threatening the districts with very expensive third-party audits unless school officials prove within 60 days that there are no unlicensed software products on any school computers. Several district IT directors have said the mandated time frame was difficult or impossible given their available staff and resources.
Microsoft has offered an alternative to the audit: to agree to pay around $40-$50 for each of their tens of thousands of computers every year. Whether that computer is a PC or a Macintosh, if it has the capability of running any Microsoft software (such as Office for MacOS), Microsoft gets $40 for it every year. Obviously, that money comes out of tax dollars that would otherwise be earmarked for teacher salaries or educational programs.
Microsoft has probably been paid in full already for all of the software currently installed on most of these computers. In addition, many of the computers are older models and don't have the speed or capacity to run the newest software, so they wouldn't benefit from keeping up with Microsoft's "upgrade cycle" anyway.
I know from experience that the process of auditing your software licenses is tedious, repetitive, and time consuming work. I'm a systems administrator for a Seattle manufacturing company. Technical workers' time is valuable, and the only people that benefit from the effort put into license auditing are Microsoft lawyers, employees, and shareholders. John Rowlands, director of information services for the Seattle School District, was quoted in a column in the Oregonian a few weeks ago: "They just want to squeeze every nickel out of us they can," describing Microsoft's strong-arm tactics. Is this the kind of attitude that our local schools should expect from our local businesses? It's infuriating! It would be different if there was a whistleblower -- if someone had come to Microsoft and informed them that a particular district or school was knowingly violating the software license agreements. There was no prompt from anywhere; they have absolutely no reason to believe that the districts are using unlicensed software. Microsoft just decided that they needed a little more room in the budget this year, so they are stepping up the routine auditing of their customers, and pushing their new, lucrative "software by subscription" business model. Put simply, it's a shakedown.
Is there another business in the country with such a callous attitude toward any of its customers? I realize that they haven't broken the law, but one would hope that concern about publicity would deter our local businesses from engaging in hardball tactics against our local school systems.
A search of your web site's archive database turned up nothing. Why haven't I seen any reference to this story in the Times?
Linus wouldn't do that, nor should he. He's much to laid back and has far less of a stake in the GPL than RMS. RMS would be much more amusing in that role, anyway. Once he got hold of them he'd never let go, and he'd make a ton of noise about it, too.
Under capitalism man exploits man. Under communism it's the other way around.
I don't know the specifics of the Portland school system, but given a few assumptions compared to the corporate world:
-- Short workday
-- Lots of holidays
-- 2-3 month summer break
-- Outstanding benefits package
-- Better (existant) retirement/pension
-- (As much as I dislike them) Union (?)
Considering all that, $3k/month isn't much less than what I make now, after my company cut payroll across the board last year.
So, yeah, I'd consider it.
Hell, a few weeks ago, after reading the Slashdot article then concerning the LUGs going to work to help the Portland schools (remember - MS gave the teachers/admins an open bar night?), I was motivated to visit my local school system's website. First - it wouldn't work with Opera 5.12. Then, from IE, I was able to read the school system's technology charter/plan/documentation. It was very thorough and detailed. Unfortunately, it was 100% Microsoft, and I had this vision of MS bankrupting our schools with an audit. I can't believe anybody on the planet is strictly compliant with MS stuff. So, I found and filled out a survey at the site. In a comments area, I spent about 15 minutes describing my concerns, and included links to various informative sites that would help the transition to Linux if they were interested.
Upon hitting Submit, IE went into a deep sleep. Eventually I had to kill it. I was then unable to reload the website, from any browser. I assume it was IIS, and I'm pretty sure I killed it.
About 15 minutes later the site was active again. I didn't waste my time re-submitting the letter.
So, better benefits, fewer hours, nearly the same pay, and (honestly) the good feeling from the opportunity to improve the system for everybody ? I'd definitely consider it.
Alright, so I definitely have a smirk on my face when I say this, but, technically, Linux isn't Unix(tm) either :-)
:-)
In order to be Unix(tm), it would have to be owned by SCO
Tom
---- It puts the lotion on its skin or else it gets the hose again. It does this whenever it's told.
Apple computers are not the answer. When you work with Apple they force you to have total reliance on them for everything. So if it sucks, you are stuck. At my school I get tired of the Apple servers constantly crashing and kicking people off. The easier to use argument is stupid in the school setting. A rock is easier than any computer, but it is far better to teach computers since there isn't much value in rocks. If you are going to have computers you shouldn't waste your time teaching what is pretty. You should teach what works and what the industries are using. Apples are not inexpensive. If they ever break down, they are very expensive to fix. Upgrade parts are not as widely avalible and are wildly expensive. Adding extra parts is pricy since everything has to be external. To add anything that takes bandwidth you have to have IEEE 1394. That is a bummer since all the less expensive devices are coming out in USB 2.0 whitch isn't even supported by the new iMac. Apple has a way of missing technology trends and being very expensive when they do come out. Also there is a lack of midrange technologies in software.
What's so hard about an audit? Just format the harddrives of the # of pc's that they don't have Windblows liscsenses for.. my college used to wipe everthing on my pc monthly anyway cuz they got filled up with soo much crap. If they don't know how many liscenses they have then format 1/2 or all of them. What better way to give MS the middle finger salute. after formatting all pc's maybe they'll need to not offer computer classes for a semester or 2 while they transition to linux... it's not like computers are the building block of education... johnny still needs the 3 r's. Maybe shutting down the computer lab for a while isn't such a bad thing after all.
OpenOffice could be handed out for free at the start of the semester (and AFAIK StarOffice, too because even version 6 is free for education).
I't strange that some people would actually rather let students pay for MS Office.
haha.. first i thought it was funny that you said 'expansive' instead of 'expensive', but then you went on to say it over and over again... if i had mod power i'd mod you up as 'Funny'
this is a very well written response to the fud produced by the parent post.
-- john
How many times has someone said "I just want it to be compatible with what I use at work", or "My kids are going to use it for their homework."
Eventually parents are going to start asking that question and coming up with OS and office suite answers other than "Microsoft"... because they'll be asking their kids. And if the current situation is still like it was when I was a teenager, it's the kids that are gonna set up and maintain the computer, so the ease-of-setup barrier will be circumvented for many folks.
With reasonable men I will reason; with humane men I will plead; but to tyrants I will give no quarter. -- William Lloyd
The truth of the matter is, windows is perfect for what schools teach (which isn't much). They teach 99% of students to be typists, capable of using word and mucking around a bit in excel.
Which is strange when you think about it... the age of the typewriter is dead, there will come a time when we don't have to employ wageslaves to type dead trees back into electronic form.
So, what would you teach kids if not teaching them to be typing monkeys incapable of truly using a computer? Me, I'd dig those apple IIe's out of the closet, and teach them assembly language on the 6502. Teach them to write a compiler, and write their own programs with that compiler. The first kid to write a video game in such a fashion, gets an A+ and doesn't have to do anything but play the game the rest of the year. I'd teach them how to interface to that crappy 8bit bus, and have them dream up things to interface to it. We'd build them in class. They hate crappy resolution, with only a few colors? Maybe we'd take a crack at building an SVGA card for it.
And maybe, just maybe, those who passed that class would be eligible for the classes that use Mac OSX or linux on the g4 powermacs. Why those? Because x86 stinks, even if the rest of the hardware that goes with it is tolerable nowdays.
So, unless you were serious... tell me what *is wrong* with using Apple IIe's in the classroom.
I tend to agree with this... Why when I was in High School in the 80's we were forced to learn to code using punch cards because if we knew that skill, according to the teacher, we would get the job over somebody that didn't know how to punch cards.
She must have been right, because I'm still working while my friends are getting laid off left and right...
- "Randy Baker" linux iowa
- intitle:iowa intitle:linux schools
- intitle:linux 16 districts iowa
- As well as many others
You'd think that if they migrated 12,000 users to Linux almost a year ago that someone would have written an article or something.I suspect that the Iowa schools just migrated some/all of their servers to Linux and the article neglected to mention that "completely dumped Microsoft" meant that they completely dumped IIS in favor of Apache on Linux.
Not necessairly....Give WINE/WineX a few years and it'll be easy to throw Windoze warez on a Linux box. The kids who have enough knowledge to find out what warez is probably have enough skill to learn how to use WINE.
"Evil will always triumph because good is dumb." -- Dark Helmet
So, I may be missing something, but...
What authority does Microsoft or the BSA (or any private enterprise, for that matter) have to come in and 'audit' some business, government entity or charity? I can understand it if they have probable cause and go in under a warrent, accompanying law enforcement. But, just choosing a school district and saying "I'm going to audit you"? Why doesn't the district just say "Go to hell"? It seems to me that Microsoft has as much right to do that as Madonna does to come into my house and 'audit' my music collection for illegal copies of her music.
Sure, piracy is a big problem for the software industry, but there still needs to be some reasonable evidence of wrongdoing before you can inflict a search on somebody.
Perhaps its about time that M$ included StarOffice/OpenOffice file filters in their office suite
... These are good mature programs .. unlike the old StarOffice 5.2 which i didnt care for..
Considering how popular the double sided OO(free) SO(comercial) stratigy will become.
AND
* Carthago Delenda Est *
while i agree with your current economic assessment this was not really the case 1.5 to 2 years ago. the current state is a result of administrative choices over the last 5 or 6 years. hopefully the bad economy will result in a more cost efficent solution for schools in the end.
-- john
I hope you put it all into your BSA defence fund...
I lived in the Beaverton area for a couple of years, it's not the kind of place that's going to be easily bullied by MSFT, or anybody else for that matter. One of the nicknames for this area was the "silicon forest", a takeoff on the Bay Area's high-tech reputation. There's a very high ratio of technologically clueful folks there. There's also an unusually high level of disdain for MSFT, especially among the Intel folk I used to work with. I never did understand it, why Intel engineers disliked MSFT so much. Anyways, it was up there I got introduced to Linux for the first time.
But it would really surprise me to see the schools that got audited dump MSFT lock, stock, and barrel anytime soon. The only clueless folk I ever did any business with up there were the schools. Stupifyingly dense and criminally arrogant. Thankfully, they're also almost totally inneffective as administrators so they won't be able to keep Linux out.
We need an X-Box for every classroom, Bill! :-)
Murphy was an optimist.
But OpenOffice is a *free* download. So they just put that on their computer at home along with MS Office or even instead of MS Office. MS Office is not, in my opinion, $400US better than OpenOffice anyway. See
4 6-2002May11.html
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A42
http://www.aea6.k12.ia.us/tech/tech_support.html
Why do I feel like a stalker? For those of you that don't know, an AEA is an area education agency. There are approximately 15 of them in the state, they have a centralized library and staff that the schools can share.
I used to be a pastry chef, I'll bring little cherry and rasberry cheesecakes with anti-ms slogans made from white chocolate chips on top. Lets have a bakesale for linux in our schools!
An Education is the Font of All Liberty
Generally schools are more concerned about teaching concepts (or should be). StarOffice and KDE/Gnome can be set up to be quite Windows-like. The kids need to know how to use a modern operating system and apps - not how to use MS WIndows.
ObTagLine: The more you run over the 'possum, the flatter it gets.
Say whatever else you want to about him, but you've got to give RMS this: selling free software (including linux) on the basis of anything other than freedom is risky business.
I remember once, just out of highschool with an awful sales job, (for home pop machines, if you can believe it), my sleazy boss used to always say: never try to sell people on cost. They'll get bogged down with numbers and you'll never make the sale. Sell them on xxxx (in that case convenience) and let people work out the numbers for themselves. His logic was that numbers were easy to fudge when you're trying to rationalize something, and better they play around to get the numbers to make themselves happy than they catch you playing around with them.
In the context of free software, the same logic almost holds:
-for a big enough or strategic enough account, you can't beat MSFT on financial terms. That is, they can always either reduce/forgoe the licensing fees or heck, _pay you_ to use the stuff if they want it badly enough. (Just ask Miguel about Vicente Fox and the Mexican initiative.) You can't, (well, _I_ can't), outbid Microsoft.
-on technical merit, they can argue any particular point into the ground, or even, for big enough or strategic enough cases, find what's broken and 'fix' it. (gasp)
But sell freedom and you're onto something. (You _may_ even have people/past-victims making the technical/financial arguments for themselves.) The best part is that, when they use sledgehammers like the BSA, MSFT make the case for you.
Try as they might, MSFT is going to have a hard time erasing the memory of these audits/sales-tools from the overworked/underfunded school systems. Sure, they let you slide on the licensing now... but stick with them and you'll never be free of the threat of the audit. (And that whether you're in compliance or not.)
Changing to Macs would require hardware changes too. Remember, the problem is not ideology, but $$$ -- they simply don't have money to spare on new hardware.
Infuriate left and right
Any positive computing experience is beneficial. Getting over the "fear" of sitting down at a computer and using it is the first big obstacle.
But I will add this: probably most of the slashdot crowd can sit down at any modern spreadsheet or word processor and accomplish what we need to do without documentation, and feel pretty comfortable doing it. The fact is, as another poster put it, all the OSs are so similar that there should not be a problem for anyone jumping around from one to another. They all have nice icons on the screen, some sort of system menu. Point here, double-click that, drag that over there...
Is Open Office so different from MS Office that learning it will be detrimental? I can't believe that.
Rather, I'd like to believe that someone who learns on Linux can jump on a Windows box and accomplish whatever it is they need to accomplish, and it will actually be easier for them then someone who learned soley on Windows. And if they are forced to use a Windows box full time (like me) they will (like me) keep asking "how come is such a pain in the ass to accomplish in Windows - it's so easy in Linux" - it's so much easier to share my documents in Linux, it's so much easier to collaborate on programming projects in Linux, how come it's so easy to customize Linux compared to Windows...
And then what will happen, in my idealistic version of the future, is people will actually be able to choose. Office products will use a common file format (xml?), collaberation tools will use standard protocols, and then people will be able to say "I'd like Linux as my desktop machine", and management might actually say "CHA-CHING! Another $500 saved!"
And then you might bitch about administration - but I can tell you from experience that a) Linux has fewer problems then Windows (I have both here at work, half of our problems are STUPID windows problems, like it forgetting passwords, screwing up mounted drive mappings, or "domain controllers" doing something ridiculous, and there are ZERO complaints about Linux), and b) Linux/Unix can usually be fixed remotely without the addition of third party software, which almost always causes Windows even more problems.
Just the way I see it...
And that's just for general office use. If you want to add in programming and development... Windows can't touch any of the "free" Unix variants out there.
Stupid sexy Flanders.
"So, in conclusion, Free Software is a lot like the no-name products that you see at grocery stores. It is cheaper, but you get what you pay for, an inferior product."
We have three types of servers at my job: Windows, Linux, and Solaris. Ranking them by reliability, Linux is #1 in the uptime stats, Windows is #2, and Solaris is dead last (due to a nasty recurring hardware problem). If closed source is the way to go, how did the Linux servers beat the others? You won't find many people who claim Windows to be more reliable than Linux.
From the article: In February, Microsoft CEO Steve Ballmer said he considered the "Linux phenomenon" the top threat to Microsoft's plans for world domination.
I really hope that was radically paraphrased.
The story is even better than it appears. Check out The K-12 Linux Project, also in Portland, Oregon. (Moderators: Please don't mod down people who mention this project in other contexts. Mod them up.)
Linux Terminal software is used with diskless workstations to create a 5 workstation network for under $1,000.
Here is a quote: "All applications run on the terminal server. The workstations are "thin." They have no software or hard drives. Thin clients are perfect for schools because they are easy to install and require little maintenance. They are reliable and immune to malicious tampering and viruses".
Intel is giving free processors to schools.
It's all set up and ready to go. Just download the software and follow the instructions.
"The Multnomah Education Service District [Portland, Oregon, again] has moved most of it's core network services to Linux. Linux powers DNS, DHCP, mail relays, proxy servers, web filters, and directory services for the 45,000 administrators, teachers, and students within our agency and the school districts we support . For our agency and a couple of our districts, Linux powers the web, mail, FTP, and file servers."
I was told that it took 4 full-time people to maintain the MESD system when it was using Microsoft software. Now it takes 1 person half time.
Government administrators should note that it is their duty to insure that all government work be done on completely open systems. The citizens and taxpayers of a democracy must have full access to all documents, even 40 or a hundred years from now. There is NO room in a democracy for proprietary, hidden ways of doing things.
Keep in mind that the officials that buy computers actually don't. They receive their information from their technical staff.
Which means, if the school has more of a PC base (the subject of this topic since MS was trying to audit them), then the IT person would probably consider Linux because it would be the path of least resistance--they already have PC hardware, so why rip it out to replace it with Macintosh? Have the students use OpenOffice and Konqueror. Problem solved.
If the school has a mix or a majority of Mac OS systems, an IT person may consider simply ripping Internet Explorer and Word off the systems, and use Netscape and AppleWorks instead. Problem solved again.
I don't understand the Linux zealots who feel that going Apple or Microsoft "locks" them into anything. By using Linux (as in the kernel, not the OS), aren't LINUX USERS "locked" into a single kernel, unable to change (or highly recommended not to change it for fear of instability?) There is no such thing as a democracy in the computer world. You have to pick a side and use what that side offers you. Nothing says you have to stay on that side, and there may be more options and freedoms available on some sides (Apple, BSD, Red Hat, etc.) than others (Microsoft). Try getting a free multiuser licenses from Microsoft. On the other hand, try opening an embedded Outlook mail document inside a Word document in Mac OS X. There is relative good on each side. Don't piss on that of which you have no clue.
And another thing to these fact-challenged people in this topic: While Apple no longer has the vast 75-90% majority of their computers in schools as they did in the '80s, they still have a very large presence overall, especially in the K-12 market. Dell and Apple are the largest percentage holders in a virtual heat for about a year now. The rest is broken up by other manufacturers.
Don't just say "Windows" when you mean to say a PC brand: If you break down the market shares by brand in various areas, Apple still has a presence, and a significant visionary one if nothing else.
Vos teneo officium eram periculosus ut vos recipero is.
I've been around long enough to see both the benefits and the costs of all sorts of moderation systems. One of the first events of "Net history" I witnessed, as a matter of fact, was the bug-ridden abortive launch in 1993 of the world's first USENET automoderation program -- Dick Depew's ARMM. (The bug was that it issued moderation messages for its own messages, flooding the newsgroup it was intended to protect.)
All moderation systems, like all voting systems, have their strengths -- and weaknesses. Some are susceptible to bias. Some have software bugs, like ARMM. Some are overloaded by systematic flooding, as "DipSlime" has proven on Usenet more recently. Some can be mathematically manipulated. It seems to me that one of the particular weaknesses of the Slashdot system is that the randomness of its "reinforcement" overinflates that reinforcement's perceived importance. The same behaviorism, that is, applies here that applies at the slot machine.
The chief use of the Slashdot moderation system today seems to be that it cuts down on the need to page through abusive off-topic flooding and the ungrammatical hash of the repetitious and dull. It doesn't elevate every worthwhile post, and it can't without losing the more valuable ability to suppress the DipSlime-esque spam. Please don't ask it to.
Again, thanks for the vote of confidence -- but don't bother trying to advise the moderators. Think up your own response instead; it'll do both you and the forum more good.
With projects like these the migration from windows to Linux should be easier.
Copied from http://k12linux.org
K12LTSP is based on RedHat Linux and the LTSP terminal server packages. It's easy to install and configure. It's distributed under the GNU General Public License . That means it's free and it's based on Open Source software.
Once installed K12LTSP lets you boot diskless workstations from an applications server. You can use old PC's as diskless clients or buy new ones for under $200 each.
All applications run on the terminal server. Workstations are "thin." They have no software or hard drives. Thin-clients are perfect for schools because they are easy to install and require little maintenance. They are reliable and immune to malicious tampering and viruses.
We've included a host of useful applications that will make you productive right away.
Nautilus file manager
Mozilla browser with Java(tm) and Flash (tm) support
Ximian Evolution E-Mail, calendar and contact manager
Adobe Acrobat Reader
OpenOffice
K-Office
Gimp
AbiWord
Auto configuration for many PCI based sound cards
Auto configuration for both PXE and BOOTP clients
File sharing for both Windows and Macintosh networks
Much more...
Yes. But how much has he/will he charge other schools. Where do you think those millions came from? What he giveth with one hand, he taketh tenfold with the other.
Actually the problem is that Microsoft is right, just not from the perspective they're trying to say they're right from. As a software vendor you can't make a long-term business giving away free software. You can make a business as a consulting house charging for services with free software being one of the tools you use to deliver those services, but not as a software vendor.
Thing is, the customers aren't software vendors. To the customer the software is a tool used to do something. Microsoft's business model is irrelevant to the customer, except where it affects whether they can continue to get the tools they need in working condition. So whether Microsoft can see a business model in selling free software or not doesn't affect whether the schools see a business model in educating students using free software.
The common thing that all these "rip it out and replace it with XXX" threads are missing is that the license agreement that the schools signed does not count the number of installed copies of MS-Windows. It counts the number of PCs and they pay MS a fixed (lower) price per PC.
So uninstalling MS-Windows and installing linux on 5000 PCs saves them precisely zero dollars.
What they should instead be doing is changing from a "count all PCs and pay us for them" licensing model to a harder-to-manage but cheaper in the long run model of paying only for the MS-Windows copies (and related MS software) they have installed.
Any signs this is happening?
When their layers studied the GPL license, they must have been agreeing to let the EFF conduct audits on all their software source code to make sure they are not in breach of the GPL license - aka the way the BSA demand audits.
There's a phrase used in American history which mentions the first shot of the American Revolution was "the shot heard around the world".
:) We just need the press to pick this up.... Dan Gilmour, CNN, USAToday, etc where are you?
The Microsoft audit policy might just be known as "the backfire heard around the world". With Linux stability, usefulness, and capabilities where they are today, there's not much stopping most public school systems from switching all their classrooms and labs to Linux. Maybe they'll need one or two with Wine or even a WinFrame system or two but it'll still be cheaper running Linux and "look ma, no more audit threats"
BANG! What a backfire.
LoB
"Anyone who stands out in the middle of a road looks like roadkill to me." --Linus
http://www.eschoolnews.com/news/showStory.cfm?Arti cleID=2828 o soft_school/index2.html n sing/BSALetter.doc (Sorry, I know, MS Word)
http://www.salon.com/tech/feature/2001/07/10/micr
http://www.microsoft.com/education/downloads/lice
OK, so I can't find any links specifically relating to the above story. But seriously, finding stories on how BSA screws over schools is (no pun intended) child's play.
Wanted: One witty yet thought provoking
rtf is a transportable format supported well by Word as well as various word processors that compete with Word. You don't get to take advantage of change-tracking, but most students never use that anyway. Really, there is no problem importing non-MS docs into MS apps.
Is there another business in the country with such a callous attitude toward any of its customers?
Probably the tobacco companies.
--
"Outlook not so good." That magic 8-ball knows everything! I'll ask about Exchange Server next.
We all know that the package of Macaroni and
Cheese sitting on the shelf tastes nowhere near the same as the appealing package of Kraft
Dinner!
You've GOT to be Canadian.
How can using linux halve the cost of a computer lab when the cost of operating system software is typically $100 per machine or less and the cost of hardware is typically $800 or more?
The 'retail' cost of Windows XP is $299 ( no upgrade, just raw price ). There is a volume licensing program but this doesn't give prices out.
'Retail' for Office XP for Students/Teachers is $149.
Assume they give a 60+% discount on XP, the total for both is $249. Hardware is cheap - WalMart is selling naked PCs for $399. The price of the 'standard' MS software which people expect is more than 50% of the cost of new hardware.
creation science book
That people seem to think that you need to be some super intelligent person to learn how to use a computer.
Young kids are very much into exploring stuff, teachers are much into repetitive learning. Somewhere in there people get confused that teachers that can only teach repetitive lessons that is all a student can learn.
It is the same mentality that MS pushes with Windows, we are one interface, everyone knows how to use it. Any changes to it are bad. God forbid that anyone learn anything different.
Put a Linux desktop in front of kid learning and quit the b*itching and the moaning and the whining about how the interfaces don't all work the same, or that stuff is so different that it will be too hard.
If I want to see a bunch of clones I will go see Episode II again, not go to Public schools.
The explanation needs to be longer. They are only running part of their services using Linux, only the services listed. There are still file servers at other locations. Services not listed still use other software, also.
I called Eric Harrison and got the correct information. I was rushing to write my first post to the story (I should have been working for a customer.) and I made two mistakes. The correct statistic is that the administration time was cut in half. Also, they replaced other Unix software as well as Microsoft software.
Note that the people who help users are in a separate facility, and are not counted. The statistic is only for admin of their computers. Programming and other functions are not included.
Eric Harrison and Paul Nelson did the work. They are very friendly. Contact them for a better explanation. Obviously, I can't post their e-mail addresses here.
Another error: The word "insure" should have been "ensure".
Many student users don't "learn Linux". They just write reports and term papers. Open Office is fine for this, and less quirky than Microsoft Word.
One problem with Microsoft software is that users dink around with the OS instead of doing their school work. In that case, it helps that Linux is less well known.
See my earlier post, 5 workstations and a server, less than $1,000. (#3561613) for more explanation.
Oh Yeah, I went to High School in Fort Mill, SC.
Jim and Tammy Faye Baker donated millions to our school.
Guess what? They were still lying crooks.
By the way this is true too!!!
because my AP US History text book said that the British Army sent about 20-25,000 troops to North America to fight the revolutionary war and that with the recruiting and drafting that resulted from the declaration of independence, the total global forces of the British Army reached over 100,000 back then.
That's a very good question that very few people bother to ask. There is a clause in their so-called "license" which states that they are allowed to "audit" you; and that clause, presumably, gives Microsoft the right to send in the enforcers. However, legally, it does not hold any water. Even if we assume that EULA is enforcible as a whole (a dubious assumption), that particular clause would be thrown out if the matter ever went to court.
This "auditing" clause essentially amounts to a search without a search warrant by a non-government agency. In case you didn't know, even the police cannot come to your house and search you whenever they feel like it. They must first obtain a search warrant, which is signed by a judge. And to get the warrant, police need to show that there is a likelihood of finding the desired evidence.
There are two problems with BSA/Microsoft audits. First they are not the police, so they have no authority to conduct the searches. Their "license" doesn't hold any water -- there are certain rights that you cannot sign away. Second, even if the BSA was ever annointed as the official copyright enforcement police, they would still need to show that there is some likelihood of finding unauthorised copies of software at whatever school/business they were trying to search. Random searches wouldn't be permitted. BSA admits -- nay, brags! -- that the vast majority of their tipoffs comes from disgruntled employees. In a court of law such "evidence" would be dismissed as hearsay. And that's without even getting into the issue of good-faith efforts of the companies to stay compliant with the license vs. the unauthorised installations by individual employees (or, perhaps, outright sabotage -- see note above about disgruntled employees).
So, as you can see, legally, Microsoft enforcers have no leg to stand on. BSA backed off the few companies that did decide to fight it.
___
If you think big enough, you'll never have to do it.
If the schools are successful in ditching M$, they become role models for parents who face the same BSA nonsense at work. (emphasis added by me)
It all sounds like the beginning of a big success story for Open-Source. However most stories are judged by their ending. Even faced by the threat of the BSA audit the schools should take care that the migration goes as smoothly as possible. It would only help Microsoft if some schools became spectacular examples of a failed migration. Being under pressure from the BSA and a tight schedule didn't help here, but now that MS has backed up a bit the schools (that want to migrate, and not face the BSA again) should take a little time to ensure everything goes over as smooth as possible.
Anyway the schools should realize that the BSA-raid may be called off for now, but it can hit them any time in the future (after a little grace period). Only then the BSA will probably pick them one by one to avoid all that publicity (divide and conquer).
"By the way if anyone here is in advertising or marketing... kill yourself." -- Bill Hicks
Seriously, this is good stuff.
Microsoft has, where do you want to go today? Or more recently, one degree of seperation.
Linux has 150 flavors and counting. Is linux be-all end-all? Oh hell no, but nothing is... however, on the other hand, linux is:
There, 3 flavors out of 150. Each of them has been very useful in my life, and I know I've only touched the tip of the iceberg.
So? Mac OS X is way more stable than either MacOS 9 or Windows 9x. Just like 2K and XP eat 9x's lunch. Real preemptive multitasking beats fakey preemptive multitasking (9x) and cooperative multitasking (classic MacOS) anyday.
Linux beats all for stability though...it is a joy to see one instance of Konqui sig-11 but the others, as well as the rest of the OS, remain standing. If IE takes a dump, it STILL takes 2K down. Dunno about how it is on OS X.
Knowledge is power. Knowledge shared is power multiplied.
... the age of the typewriter is dead,
That maybe true, but they it's not a bad skill.
I've volunteer to help at my local elementary school and seeing the kids try to type something like "My 2nd grade Science" in hyperstudio. Most of them are hunting for each letter. Now, there only in second grade but somewhere along the line they should learn to touch type.
(appended to the end of comments you post)
The schools are now training new generations
of their customers. For free. Microsoft should pay the schools to do this, supplying them with all the software and hardware they need. For free.
What is it worth to Microsoft to lose a generation of trained customers?
but we all know that here:
Tell that to Amazon.com, which claimed in a recent SEC filing that it saved $17 million in technology expenses by switching to Linux.
amazon switched from solaris and tru64 unix to linux and hpux and never used any m$ products for anything but the desktop. their savings were mostly attributable to new hp lease contracts more generous than the previous ones with compaq and sun.
what if the hokey-pokey _is_ what it's all about?
2 years ago I ran a networking lab at Devry in southern california (yes, I hear you laughing in the background). Devry has a volume license with Uncle Bill. One of the east coast Devry's got nailed for 1/4 mil in unlicenesed bill ware and big Bill and co were threatening to audit all the other Devry's as well. My bosses asked how much unlicensed bill ware I had in the lab (a fair amount, as IT never bought me jack for licenses). They then asked "what will you do if we get audited." My response: "I'll fire up the ghost multicast and dump the red hat 6.2 image on the boxes so fast that by the time the lawyers climb the stairs, all the machines will be showing nothing but a login: prompt and MOTD that spells what that GPL means". After that, my bosses never bossed me about auditing questions again
Lawyers, MBA's, RIAA? A jedi fears not these things!
true, but when they were saying "Terrorists", I think they were referring to their competition!
./cwide
soul daddies in a firewire tumble dryer
Danny.
I have written over 900 book reviews
Why was it considered a less than welcome offer? Was this just one school district opionion or was it founded on something more public education specific?
*** Sigs are a stupid waste of bandwidth.
I suggest you read Atlas Shrugged
And I suggest you read more slashdot. Most especially the somewhat recent letter discussing why Open Source is the correct choice for public services.
In most of the cases of audits like this, the software was paid for, either at retail or when the software came with the machine. Over time, though, the license stickers and such get lost. So even though you've got a computer that came with the OS from the maker, and you've got all the original media and such that match it, you can't prove you were licensed and so are considered to have pirated the OS that the computer maker sold you along with the machine. This is one of the reasons MS and other software companies and the BSA keep harping so loudly on the "settle and we won't audit you" line: they're deathly afraid of the company that can in fact produce all the paperwork and is ticked off enough to countersue them for malicious prosecution, disruption of business, defamation and extortion.
Apt-get and up2date by themselves ought to save any school district quite a bit. Given the excessing staffing I've seen at various MS shops, I'd expect similar savings across the board. Three places I've worked closely with during the last two years could not, even with IT staff of 5-8 FTE each, keep their MS-Exchange servers running a whole week. And that's even with nearly 100% neglect of the workstations.
All the problems generate mindshare. No one notices or cares about things that run like they were on rails. When was the last time you thought about the plumbing in your building, or the janitorial staff, or the switches in your POTS network? The MS-service packs, anxious waiting for service packs, emergency runs to rebuild the server in the middle of the day all generate mindshare.
Lastly, KDE and Gnome are as easy or easier to use than MS-Windows these days. Bonus points for ease of use if the tech installing it figures out what it's going to be used for and sets up the menus accordingly, adds short cuts and removes distractions.
Beta is broken and the link to classic doesn't work. Stop wasting our time or there won't be anybody left here.
Has everyone forgotten the terms of the anti-trust settlement? I'm guessing that MS wants to put pressure on the schools in a misguided attempt to gain their support--MS believes that schools would prefer donated MS software to the BSA breathing down their necks.
The real question is in how many school districts this is backfiring, resulting in migrations to Linux.
Yes, that was the same East India Tea Company we had all the trouble with over here, too . .
hawk
[the fact that Word doesn't read StarOffice's native format] could pose a problem for people to cart their files back and forth between school and home using removable media.
And .txt is bad why?
Will I retire or break 10K?
OSX isnt Linux, but it is UNIX.
Actually, neither Mac OS X nor any popular GNU/Linux distribution is an official UNIX® system. UNIX is a registered trademark of The Open Group.
Will I retire or break 10K?
My kids like Linux too; if their favorite games ran well on Linux they'd probably use it most of the time.
What do they use? My favorite games don't even run on Windows (except through emulation, and even that doesn't work for GCN). Yes, I'm a console gamer.
Will I retire or break 10K?
They don't always need sound cards
How are you supposed to run "Talking Reader Rabbit" or other K-5 literacy software without a sound card? The latest programs support only DirectX compatible audio hardware, which does not include the PC's internal speaker.
or 17 inch monitors
What? Do you want to back to the Apple II and 10-inch displays? Kids can't very easily read tiny print.
They don't need CDROM burners
Without a CD-RW drive, how are kids supposed to take their work home with them?
Will I retire or break 10K?
For example, you cannot run ANY Open Source software. This extends to Corporate users as well, and also voids the warrenty and the license.
This is a pretty strong accusation: Do you have evidence to back it up? (If so, I'd like to see it).
If he is, we disown him.
#define X(x,y) x##y
Peter Cordes ; e-mail: X(peter@cordes ,