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Echelon Architect Interviewed
ploog writes "Echelon has been surrounded by controversy since rumors of it first popped up on the net. The US Government has never admitted to it, although various other governments have. Now, a lead architect for Echelon and its "big brother," Echelon II, has been discovered and interviewed. This is fascinating stuff. He is able to give some details about how Echelon works, although he doesn't come divulge everything, for obvious reasons.
Trying to deny Echelon just got that much harder. Link found via Megarad.com."
The US government is trying to deny it and hide its existance, and then someone "suddenly" finds the architect and he starts freely talking about it? I doubt it.
So much for that link..........
How long until this guy gets offed by the feds? :-)
OtakuBooty.com: Smart, funny, sexy nerds.
... by secrecy, I wouldn't instantly arrive at the conclusion that any of this interview (with a somewhat elusive subject) is valid. :p
Do you like German cars?
[Save your mod points. I have enough Karma.]
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Answers to Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ) about Echelon
Updated February 7, 2002
Q - What is Project ECHELON?
ECHELON is the term popularly used for an automated global interception and relay system operated by the intelligence agencies in five nations: the United States, the United Kingdom, Canada, Australia and New Zealand (it is believed that ECHELON is the code name for the portion of the system that intercepts satellite-based communications). While the United States National Security Agency (NSA) takes the lead, ECHELON works in conjunction with other intelligence agencies, including the Australian Defence Signals Directorate (DSD). It is believed that ECHELON also works with Britain's Government Communications Headquarters (GCHQ) and the agencies of other allies of the United States, pursuant to various treaties. (1)
These countries coordinate their activities pursuant to the UKUSA agreement, which dates back to 1947. The original ECHELON dates back to 1971. However, its capabilities and priorities have expanded greatly since its formation. According to reports, it is capable of intercepting and processing many types of transmissions, throughout the globe. In fact, it has been suggested that ECHELON may intercept as many as 3 billion communications everyday, including phone calls, e-mail messages, Internet downloads, satellite transmissions, and so on. (2) The ECHELON system gathers all of these transmissions indiscriminately, then distills the information that is most heavily desired through artificial intelligence programs. Some sources have claimed that ECHELON sifts through an estimated 90 percent of all traffic that flows through the Internet. (3)
However, the exact capabilities and goals of ECHELON remain unclear. For example, it is unknown whether ECHELON actually targets domestic communications. Also, it is apparently very difficult for ECHELON to intercept certain types of transmissions, particularly fiber communications.
Q - How does ECHELON work?
ECHELON apparently collects data in several ways. Reports suggest it has massive ground based radio antennae to intercept satellite transmissions. In addition, some sites reputedly are tasked with tapping surface traffic. These antennae reportedly are in the United States, Italy, England, Turkey, New Zealand, Canada, Australia, and several other places. (4)
Similarly, it is believed that ECHELON uses numerous satellites to catch "spillover" data from transmissions between cities. These satellites then beam the information down to processing centers on the ground. The main centers are in the United States (near Denver), England (Menwith Hill), Australia, and Germany. (5)
According to various sources, ECHELON also routinely intercepts Internet transmissions. The organization allegedly has installed numerous "sniffer" devices. These "sniffers" collect information from data packets as they traverse the Internet via several key junctions. It also uses search software to scan for web sites that may be of interest. (6)
Furthermore, it is believed that ECHELON has even used special underwater devices which tap into cables that carry phone calls across the seas. According to published reports, American divers were able to install surveillance devices on to the underwater cables. One of these taps was discovered in 1982, but other devices apparently continued to function undetected. (7)
It is not known at this point whether ECHELON has been able to tap fiber optic phone cables.
Finally, if the aforementioned methods fail to garner the desired information, there is another alternative. Apparently, the nations that are involved with ECHELON also train special agents to install a variety of special data collection devices. One of these devices is reputed to be an information processing kit that is the size of a suitcase. Another such item is a sophisticated radio receiver that is as small as a credit card. (8)
After capturing this raw data, ECHELON sifts through them using DICTIONARY. DICTIONARY is actually a special system of computers which finds pertinent information by searching for key words, addresses, etc. These search programs help pare down the voluminous quantity of transmissions which pass through the ECHELON network every day. These programs also seem to enable users to focus on any specific subject upon which information is desired. (9)
Q - If ECHELON is so powerful, why haven't I heard about it before?
The United States government has gone to extreme lengths to keep ECHELON a secret. To this day, the U.S. government refuses to admit that ECHELON even exists. We know it exists because both the governments of Australia (through its Defence Signals Directorate) and New Zealand have admitted to this fact. (10) However, even with this revelation, US officials have refused to comment.
This "wall of silence" is beginning to erode. The first report on ECHELON was published in 1988. (11) In addition, besides the revelations from Australia, the Scientific and Technical Options Assessment program office (STOA) of the European Parliament commissioned two reports which describe ECHELON's activities. These reports unearthed a startling amount of evidence, which suggests that Echelon's powers may have been underestimated. The first report, entitled "An Appraisal of Technologies of Political Control," suggested that ECHELON primarily targeted civilians.
This report found that:
"The ECHELON system forms part of the UKUSA system but unlike many of the electronic spy systems developed during the cold war, ECHELON is designed for primarily non-military targets: governments, organisations and businesses in virtually every country. The ECHELON system works by indiscriminately intercepting very large quantities of communications and then siphoning out what is valuable using artificial intelligence aids like Memex to find key words. Five nations share the results with the US as the senior partner under the UKUSA agreement of 1948, Britain, Canada, New Zealand and Australia are very much acting as subordinate information servicers.
"Each of the five centres supply "dictionaries" to the other four of keywords, phrases, people and places to "tag" and the tagged intercept is forwarded straight to the requesting country. Whilst there is much information gathered about potential terrorists, there is a lot of economic intelligence, notably intensive monitoring of all the countries participating in the GATT negotiations. But Hager found that by far the main priorities of this system continued to be military and political intelligence applicable to their wider interests. Hager quotes from a "highly placed intelligence operatives" who spoke to the Observer in London. "We feel we can no longer remain silent regarding that which we regard to be gross malpractice and negligence within the establishment in which we operate." They gave as examples. GCHQ interception of three charities, including Amnesty International and Christian Aid. "At any time GCHQ is able to home in on their communications for a routine target request," the GCHQ source said. In the case of phone taps the procedure is known as Mantis. With telexes its called Mayfly. By keying in a code relating to third world aid, the source was able to demonstrate telex "fixes" on the three organisations. With no system of accountability, it is difficult to discover what criteria determine who is not a target." (12)
A more recent report, known as Interception Capabilities 2000, describes ECHELON capabilities in even more elaborate detail. (13) The release of the report sparked accusations from the French government that the United States was using ECHELON to give American companies an advantage over rival firms. (14) In response, R. James Woolsey, the former head of the US Central Intelligence Agency (CIA), charged that the French government was using bribes to get lucrative deals around the world, and that US surveillance networks were used simply to level the playing field. (15) However, experts have pointed out that Woolsey missed several key points. For example, Woolsey neglected to mention alleged instances of economic espionage (cited in Intelligence Capabilities 2000) that did not involve bribery. Furthermore, many observers expressed alarm with Woolsey's apparent assertion that isolated incidents of bribery could justify the wholesale interception of the world's communications. (16)
The European Parliament formed a temporary Committee of Enquiry to investigate ECHELON abuses. (17) In May 2001, members of this committee visited the United States in an attempt to discover more details about ECHELON. However, officials from both the NSA and the US Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) canceled meetings that they had previously scheduled with the European panel. The committee's chairman, Carlos Coelho, said that his group was "very disappointed" with the apparent rebuffs; in protest, the Parliamentary representatives returned home a day early. (18)
Afterwards, the committee published a report stating that ECHELON does indeed exist and that individuals should strongly consider encrypting their emails and other Internet messages. (19) However, the panel was unable to confirm suspicions that ECHELON is used to conduct industrial espionage, due to a lack of evidence. (20) Ironically, the report also mentioned the idea that European government agents should be allowed greater powers to decrypt electronic communications, which was criticized by some observers (including several members of the committee) as giving further support to Europe's own ECHELON-type system. (21) The European Parliament approved the report, but despite the apparent need for further investigation, the committee was disbanded. (22) Nevertheless, the European Commission plans to draft a "roadmap" for data protection that will address many of the concerns aired by the EP panel. (23)
Meanwhile, after years of denying the existence of ECHELON, the Dutch government issued a letter that stated: "Although the Dutch government does not have official confirmation of the existence of Echelon by the governments related to this system, it thinks it is plausible this network exists. The government believes not only the governments associated with Echelon are able to intercept communication systems, but that it is an activity of the investigative authorities and intelligence services of many countries with governments of different political signature." (24) These revelations worried Dutch legislators, who had convened a special hearing on the subject. During the hearing, several experts argued that there must be tougher oversight of government surveillance activities. There was also considerable criticism of Dutch government efforts to protect individual privacy, particularly the fact that no information had been made available relating to Dutch intelligence service's investigation of possible ECHELON abuses.(25)
In addition, an Italian government official has begun to investigate Echelon's intelligence-gathering efforts, based on the belief that the organization may be spying on European citizens in violation of Italian or international law. (26)
Events in the United States have also indicated that the "wall of silence" might not last much longer. Exercising their Constitutionally created oversight authority, members of the House Select Committee on Intelligence started asking questions about the legal basis for NSA's ECHELON activities. In particular, the Committee wanted to know if the communications of Americans were being intercepted and under what authority, since US law severely limits the ability of the intelligence agencies to engage in domestic surveillance. When asked about its legal authority, NSA invoked the attorney-client privilege and refused to disclose the legal standards by which ECHELON might have conducted its activities. (27)
President Clinton then signed into law a funding bill which required the NSA to report on the legal basis for ECHELON and similar activities. (28) However, the subsequent report (entitled Legal Standards for the Intelligence Community in Conducting Electronic Surveillance) gave few details about Echelon's operations and legality. (29)
However, during these proceedings, Rep. Bob Barr (R-GA), who has taken the lead in Congressional efforts to ferret out the truth about ECHELON, stated that he had arranged for the House Government Reform and Oversight Committee to hold its own oversight hearings.(30)
Finally, the Electronic Privacy Information Center has sued the US Government, hoping to obtain documents which would describe the legal standards by which ECHELON operates.(31)
Q - What is being done with the information that ECHELON collects?
The original purpose of ECHELON was to protect national security. That purpose continues today. For example, we know that ECHELON is gathering information on North Korea. Sources from Australia's DSD have disclosed this much because Australian officials help operate the facilities there which scan through transmissions, looking for pertinent material. (32) Similarly, the Spanish government has apparently signed a deal with the United States to receive information collected using ECHELON. The consummation of this agreement was confirmed by Spanish Foreign Minister Josep Pique, who tried to justify this arrangement on security grounds. (33)
However, national security is not Echelon's only concern. Reports have indicated that industrial espionage has become a part of Echelon's activities. While present information seems to suggest that only high-ranking government officials have direct control over Echelon's tasks, the information that is gained may be passed along at the discretion of these very same officials. As a result, much of this information has been given to American companies, in apparent attempts to give these companies an edge over their less knowledgeable counterparts. (34)
In addition, there are concerns that Echelon's actions may be used to stifle political dissent. Many of these concerns were voiced in a report commissioned by the European Parliament. What is more, there are no known safeguards to prevent such abuses of power. (35)
Q - Is there any evidence that ECHELON is doing anything improper or illegal with the spying resources at its disposal?
ECHELON is a highly classified operation, which is conducted with little or no oversight by national parliaments or courts. Most of what is known comes from whistleblowers and classified documents. The simple truth is that there is no way to know precisely what ECHELON is being used for.
But there is evidence, much of which is circumstantial, that ECHELON (along with its British counterpart) has been engaged in significant invasions of privacy. These alleged violations include secret surveillance of political organizations, such as Amnesty International. (36) It has also been reported that ECHELON has engaged in industrial espionage on various private companies such as Airbus Industries and Panavia, then has passed along the information to their American competitors. (37) It is unclear just how far Echelon's activities have harmed private individuals.
However, the most sensational revelation was that Diana, Princess of Wales may have come under ECHELON surveillance before she died. As reported in the Washington Post, the NSA admitted that they possessed files on the Princess, partly composed of intercepted phone conversations. While one official from the NSA claimed that the Princess was never a direct target, this disclosure seems to indicates the intrusive, yet surreptitious manner by which ECHELON operates. (38)
What is even more disquieting is that, if these allegations are proven to be true, the NSA and its compatriot organizations may have circumvented countless laws in numerous countries. Many nations have laws in place to prevent such invasions of privacy. However, there are suspicions that ECHELON has engaged in subterfuge to avoid these legal restrictions. For example, it is rumored that nations would not use their own agents to spy on their own citizens, but assign the task to agents from other countries. (39) In addition, as mentioned earlier, it is unclear just what legal standards ECHELON follows, if any actually exist. Thus, it is difficult to say what could prevent ECHELON from abusing its remarkable capabilities.
Q - Is everyone else doing what ECHELON does?
Maybe not everyone else, but there are plenty of other countries that engage in the type of intelligence gathering that ECHELON performs. These countries apparently include Russia, France, Israel, India, Pakistan and many others. (40) Indeed, the excesses of these ECHELON-like operations are rumored to be similar in form to their American equivalents, including digging up information for private companies to give them a commercial advantage.
However, it is also known that ECHELON system is the largest of its kind. What is more, its considerable powers are enhanced through the efforts of America's allies, including the United Kingdom, Canada, Australia, and New Zealand. Other countries don't have the resources to engage in the massive garnering of information that the United States is carrying out.
Notes
1. Development of Surveillance Technology and Risk of Abuse of Economic Information (An appraisal of technologies for political control), Part 4/4: The state of the art in Communications Intelligence (COMINT) of automated processing for intelligence purposes of intercepted broadband multi-language leased or common carrier systems, and its applicability to COMINT targeting and selection, including speech recognition, Ch. 1, para. 5, PE 168.184 / Part 4/4 (April 1999). See Duncan Campbell, Interception Capabilities 2000 (April 1999) (http://www.iptvreports.mcmail.com/stoa_cover.htm
2. Kevin Poulsen, Echelon Revealed, ZDTV (June 9, 1999).
3. Greg Lindsay, The Government Is Reading Your E-Mail, TIME DIGITAL DAILY (June 24, 1999).
4. PE 168.184 / Part 4/4, supra note 1, Ch. 2, para. 32-34, 45-46.
5. Id. Ch. 2, para. 42.
6. Id. Ch. 2, para. 60.
7. Id. Ch. 2, para. 50.
8. Id. Ch. 2, para. 62-63.
9. An Appraisal of Technologies for Political Control, at 20, PE 166.499 (January 6, 1998). See Steve Wright, An Appraisal of Technologies for Political Control (January 6, 1998) (http://cryptome.org/stoa-atpc.htm).
10. Letter from Martin Brady, Director, Defence Signals Directorate, to Ross Coulhart, Reporter, Nine Network Australia 2 (Mar. 16, 1999) (on file with the author); see also Calls for inquiry into spy bases, ONE NEWS New Zealand (Dec. 28, 1999).
11. Duncan Campbell, Somebody's listening, NEW STATESMAN, 12 August 1988, Cover, pages 10-12. See Duncan Campbell, ECHELON: NSA's Global Electronic Interception, (last visited October 12, 1999) (http://jya.com/echelon-dc.htm).
12. PE 166.499, supra note 9, at 19-20.
13. PE 168.184 / Part 4/4, supra note 1.
14. David Ruppe, Snooping on Friends?, ABCNews.com (US) (Feb. 25, 2000) (http://abcnews.go.com/sections/world/dailynews/e
15. R. James Woolsey, Why We Spy on Our Allies, WALL ST. J., March 17, 2000. See also CRYPTOME, Ex-CIA Head: Why We Spy on Our Allies (last visited April 11, 2000) (http://cryptome.org/echelon-cia2.htm).
16. Letter from Duncan Campbell to the Wall Street Journal (March 20, 2000) (on file with the author). See also Kevin Poulsen, Echelon Reporter answers Ex-CIA Chief, SecurityFocus.com (March 23, 2000) (http://www.securityfocus.com/news/6).
17. Duncan Campbell, Flaw in Human Rights Uncovered, HEISE TELEPOLIS, April 8, 2000. See also HEISE ONLINE, Flaw in Human Rights Uncovered (April 8, 2000) (http://www.heise.de/tp/english/inhalt/co/6724/1.
18.Angus Roxburgh, EU investigators 'snubbed' in US, BBC News, May 11, 2001 (http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/europe/ne
19.Report on the existence of a global system for intercepting private and commercial communications (ECHELON interception system), PE 305.391 (July 11, 2001) (available in PDF or Word format at http://www2.europarl.eu.int).
20. Id.; see also E-mail users warned over spy network, BBC News, May 29, 2001 (http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/europe/ne
21. Steve Kettman, Echelon Furor Ends in a Whimper, Wired News, July 3, 2001 (http://www.wired.com/news/print/0,1294,44984,00.
22. European Parliament resolution on the existence of a global system for the interception of private and commercial communications (ECHELON interception system) (2001/2098(INI)), A5-0264/2001, PE 305.391/DEF (Sept. 5, 2001) (available at http://www3.europarl.eu.int); Christiane Schulzki-Haddouti, Europa-Parlament verabsciedet Echelon-Bericht, Heise Telepolis, Sept. 5, 2001 (available at http://www.heise.de/tp/); Steve Kettman, Echelon Panel Calls It a Day, Wired News, June 21, 2001 (http://www.wired.com/news/print/0,1294,44721,00.
23. European Commission member Erkki Liikanen, Speech regarding European Parliament motion for a resolution on the Echelon interception system (Sept. 5, 2001) (transcript available at http://europa.eu.int).
24. Jelle van Buuren, Dutch Government Says Echelon Exists, Heise Telepolis, Jan. 20, 2001 (available at http://www.heise.de/tp/).
25. Jelle van Buuren, Hearing On Echelon In Dutch Parliament, Heise Telepolis, Jan. 23, 2001 (available at http://www.heise.de/tp/).
26. Nicholas Rufford, Spy Station F83, SUNDAY TIMES (London), May 31, 1998. See Nicholas Rufford, Spy Station F83 (May 31, 1998) (http://www.sunday-times.co.uk/news/pages/sti/98/
27. H. Rep. No. 106-130 (1999). See Intelligence Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2000, Additional Views of Chairman Porter J. Goss (http://www.echelonwatch.org/goss.htm).
28. Intelligence Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2000, Pub. L. 106-120, Section 309, 113 Stat. 1605, 1613 (1999). See H.R. 1555 Intelligence Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2000 (Enrolled Bill (Sent to President)) http://www.echelonwatch.org/hr1555c.htm).
29. UNITED STATES NATIONAL SECURITY AGENCY, LEGAL STANDARDS FOR THE INTELLIGENCE COMMUNITY IN CONDUCTING ELECTRONIC SURVEILLANCE (2000) (http://www.fas.org/irp/nsa/standards.html).
30. House Committee to Hold Privacy Hearings, (August 16, 1999) (http://www.house.gov/barr/p_081699.html).
31. ELECTRONIC PRIVACY INFORMATION CENTER, PRESS RELEASE: LAWSUIT SEEKS MEMOS ON SURVEILLANCE OF AMERICANS; EPIC LAUNCHES STUDY OF NSA INTERCEPTION ACTIVITIES (1999). See also Electronic Privacy Information Center, EPIC Sues for NSA Surveillance Memos (last visited December 17, 1999) (http://www.epic.org/open_gov/foia/nsa_suit_12_99
32. Ross Coulhart, Echelon System: FAQs and website links, (May 23, 1999).
33. Isambard Wilkinson, US wins Spain's favour with offer to share spy network material, Sydney Morning Herald, June 18, 2001 (http://www.smh.com.au/news/0106/18/text/world11.
34. PE 168.184 / Part 4/4, supra note 1, Ch. 5, para. 101-103.
35. PE 166.499, supra note 9, at 20.
36. Id.
37. PE 168.184 / Part 4/4, supra note 1, Ch. 5, para. 101-102; Brian Dooks, EU vice-president to claim US site spies on European business, YORKSHIRE POST, Jan. 30, 2002 (available at http://yorkshirepost.co.uk).
38. Vernon Loeb, NSA Admits to Spying on Princess Diana, WASHINGTON POST, December 12, 1998, at A13. See Vernon Loeb, NSA Admits to Spying on Princess Diana, WASHINGTON POST, A13 (December 12, 1998) (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/national/da
39. Ross Coulhart, Big Brother is listening, (May 23, 1999).
40. PE 168.184 / Part 4/4, supra note 1, Ch. 1, para. 7.
Since the server is already slowing down, here's the article.
ECHELON'S ARCHITECT
Echelon now has a big brother. Meet Bruce McIndoe, lead architect for Echelon II, the 'most productive intelligence program' in history
By Bo Elkjaer and Kenan Seeberg
Meet Bruce McIndoe. He has information that the Danish government and several others around the globe, continuously pretends isn't there. McIndoe knows that Echelon is real. Because he helped to build it. "Yes, that's right", McIndoe confirms to the Danish paper Ekstra Bladet today Bruce McIndoe dedicated more than ten years of his life to Echelon. He helped to finalize the original Echelon system starting in 1987. After that, he started to design Echelon II, an enlargement of the original system.
Bruce McIndoe left the inner circle of the enormous espionage network in 1998, a network run by the National Security Agency, the world's most powerful intelligence agency, in cooperation with other Western intelligence services. Ekstra Bladet tracked down Bruce McIndoe to IJet Travel Intelligence, a private espionage agency where he is currently second in command.
IJet Travel Intelligence is an exceedingly effective, specialized company that employs former staff members of the NSA, CIA, KGB and South African intelligence services.
The company's task is to furnish reports for top executives from US business and industry that reveal everything about the destination to which they are travelling for their multinational company. All the information they need to make the trip as safe as possible. The company resembles a miniature version of his previous employer, the world's most powerful intelligence agency, the NSA.
And they are almost neighbours.
Bruce McIndoe's new company is headquartered in the state of Maryland, near the NSA's gigantic Fort Meade headquarters.
CURIOUS SPY
We phone IJet Travel Intelligence and a secretary asks us to spell our names. Bruce McIndoe calls back one hour later, at the very minute we had agreed on. He starts by asking the first questions. "It appears you have written a lot about spies, intelligence and Echelon before."
"Well, you might say that."
"You have especially written a lot about Echelon, haven't you?"
"Yes, we have, some two hundred articles."
Bruce McIndoe is more than just casually inquisitive when he calls. He hasn't wasted any time and obviously ran a background check on the two curious reporters from Denmark, and it all took less than an hour. Now that he has broached the subject of top-secret Echelon himself, we decide to get right to the point.
"You were one of the architects for Echelon II. When did you work on that program for the NSA?"
"When I was at CSSI. We worked for the NSA most of the time that CSSI existed. Mainly from 1987 until four years ago. At that time, my company was bought out by a company known as the Computer Science Corporation. Although CSSI was involved in many large-scale projects for the NSA, Echelon was probably the biggest."
"Is Echelon II some sort of superstructure to Echelon?"
"Yes. Echelon has existed for a long time, as you know, and they needed to update the system."
SILLY POLITICIANS
"Have you kept up with the European Echelon discussion and the report issued by the European Parliament?"
"Yes, I have followed it quite closely, actually. At least I know that some countries are uncertain about the entire program, and I'm familiar with their considerations on whether they shall continue to support it. The US government and its allies have already run into somewhat of a challenge."
"What do you mean by that?"
"Well, they can't avoid the glare of publicity anymore. If I perform a search on the word 'Echelon' right now, I can find maybe one thousand articles dealing with Echelon, so it is a pretty well-known system by now. And as you know, many people mildly disapprove of Echelon. So accepting the use of it poses a challenge to many countries."
"The European Parliament is airing the possibility that the EU should make its own Echelon system?"
"Well, there are three possible options. They can openly join Echelon and demand more control, they can make their own system or they can refrain from having one. But in my opinion, pretending it doesn't exist just isn't an option. Especially not after September eleventh."
"Were you ever involved in the first Echelon system?"
"Only at the end of it. It was already operational when I entered the picture."
"The report of the European Parliament firmly establishes that Echelon is a global surveillance system which intercepts private and commercial communication and that it is led by the US in concert with Great Britain, Canada, Australia and New Zealand as second partners. But the Parliament is not totally sure the system is named Echelon."
Bruce McIndoe laughs dryly and somewhat indulgently about the thought of our silly European politicians. IJet Travel Intelligence's website proudly, and with surprising candour, mentions McIndoe's contribution to making Echelon II. The website states that: 'Bruce was one of the lead architects for the National Security Agency's Echelon II program, identified as one of the most productive intelligence programs in the agency's history.'
LISTENING IN ON EVERYTHING
"On the whole, it doesn't take long to verify the existence of Echelon if you look at the US Defence Department's budgets. And besides, code names are usually not classified as top secret. This practice enables people in the right circles to refer to the program, yet without revealing its capacity or how it operates."
"So you are the person who can document that you have made Echelon II?"
"Yes, that's for sure. I can even do so without revealing any secrets. Echelon II is the successor, so to speak, of the original Echelon system."
"Can you tell us whether it is used to monitor all types of communication?"
"No system of such enormous magnitude would only be used for a single purpose. They use it for everything they can, if they feel it's necessary. Whenever they need to exploit its potential, they do it."
Bruce takes a little breather while he considers whether he has said too much:
"But it doesn't mean they're a bunch of wild cowboys. There are rules, you know, that stipulate what they are allowed to monitor, and they definitely don't ignore the laws of any individual countries. Not American laws either. This poses somewhat of a challenge, of course, but after they get a court order, they can do just about anything they please," explains McIndoe, who emphasizes that he is no expert in these matters.
In 1998, Computer Science Corporation took over Bruce McIndoe's company - and with that the Echelon contract with the National Security Agency. Shortly afterwards, Bruce McIndoe co-founded the company he now works for. A company where he makes great use of his experience from working with the largest espionage system in the world.
AUTOMATIC TRANSLATION
"Tell us something about the company you work for now."
"Okay. In short, we have transferred everything I did for the NSA and other services to a private company that then sells intelligence to businesspersons. We get information on everything from local diseases, outbreaks of malaria epidemics and local unrest to strikes, the weather and traffic conditions. Our customers are large multinational companies like Prudential and Texas Instruments. We also work for institutions like the World Bank and the IMF."
"Your offices resemble a command post at the NSA's Fort Meade headquarters?"
"Yes, exactly. Our staff are also former intelligent agents who have either developed or run espionage operations for US intelligence agencies or people from the UK, South Africa and Russia."
"How does the NSA feel about the fact you're applying the same technology in the private sector?"
"A lot of the technology developed at the NSA will sooner or later find its way into civilian life. Things like word spotting, automatic translation, language recognition and so on. But since we don't try to hide our work and primarily use open sources, the NSA doesn't complain."
Yet the architect for Echelon II indirectly reveals some secrets to us. One of the ways Echelon works is by using words and voice recognition, as well as automatic translation.
You'd like us to believe that, wouldn't you?? You're in on it too!
Hopefully this guy doesn't now disappear like the world's leading microbiologists. At least he is "the business" and should be better able to protect himself.
That the Slashdot editors just assume that we know what it is, and dare not give an inkling about it in the posting.
mstyne: real name, no gimmicks
Uh... seems like everybody feels helpful today *sigh*
Boy the moderators are going to have fun with the redundant mod today!
not to karma whore, but...
h tm
mirror: http://www.gothicasfuck.co.uk/temp/echelon2-arch.
its amazing how, just now people are starting to discover the intents and purposes of this project. This dates back to even as far back as mid 1995, when FBI head of the CyberCrime division even said himself that echelon was something that americans would "have to learn to get used to". You would think that more awareness would be brought up concerning this considering that 9.3 billion of our tax dollars goes to the research and development of echelon a year. (http://w3.access.gpo.gov/usbudget/fy2003/db.html)
Why arn't senators\congressmen worried about being blackmailed by this thing?
What if there was a watergate-esque break in to echelon?
ok, so i just read the article... if this is all true, it implies that the Central Intelligence Agency and the National Security Administration (in cooperation with foreign intelligence agencies) actually spy on communications including email and voice? and that they use computer systems to do it? and they even have a code name for it? WTF???!!!
why weren't we kept informed about this?
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See? They are just toying with us!
Eve Fairbanks says I drive a hybrid!LOL
The company that this guy works for -- iJET -- is fairly interesting. I'm surprised to see that they have a service for regular travelers. For $8 per day (1 week minimum), you get an international cell phone or satellite phone, as well as text alerts "of any major developments that may impact your trip, such as civil unrest, labor strikes, severe weather, disease outbreaks or transportation delays." The info comes from the iJET database that is somehow similar to Echelon.
The service is called WorldLink. It sounds like a pretty good service to me, especially if you don't already have a cell phone that works internationally. For more info, this is the product web site.
"If I could live to be several hundred
I could take a walk and really wander, really wonder."
I seem to remember that when the US was the only one with surveillance satellites, countries like Ruissia got very very nervous and upset about it, claiming the violation of airspace, etc.
With the advent of the first Russian spy satellites, things got a lot easier. and dealing with the Russians was easier, because they could verify things with their own spy satellites. They didn't have to take the US word on things.
You didn't have a situation of someone saying "Trust Us"
I wonder if a similar situation will exist with other forms of surverlliance as they develop. Countries tend to get nervous when there are a lot of secrets involved, especially their own. While countries probably can justify secrets, I imagine that life will be easier when there is some sort of parity.
This would be especially interesting in seeing about the average citizen getting some parity with his/her/its government.
"It is a greater offense to steal men's labor, than their clothes"
Well, I don't know what to think of this article. Actually, I do: I don't believe any of it.
:-)
l on/prechel on_en.htm
I've somewhat followed the entire echelon story, and you quickly end up with a lot of speculation, conspiracy theories etc., which is of course exactly what THEY want
Anyway, more reliable information can be found in the official reports of the european union, in their investigation of the echelon system. Look on google for Duncan Campbell and his first reports for the european parliament. Scary stuff, and definitely more trustworthy than some interview with the supposed creator of echelon, containing no evidence of anything whatsoever.
Here's a link to get you started:
http://www.europarl.eu.int/tempcom/eche
Why are the Federales allowing this "architect" to talk about it? Here's my best guess:
Since everybody with half a clue already knows about echelon/echelon II, they've developed a NEW system, so they're going to let information leak about echelon, thereby lulling people back into complacency. The sheep will be satisifed that echelon is somewhat out in the open, and go back about their lives, meanwhile the governament is implementing it's NEW, IMPROVED system. How's that for a conspiracy theory?
Twinkies sure taste good for something that is 68% air.
"Were you ever involved in the first Echelon system?"
"Only at the end of it. It was already operational when I entered the picture."
So which is it? I don't think this is quite the smoking gun we think this to be.
Compared to the information leaked by Windows' security holes and XP reporting everything about you to Microsoft, Echelon looks like an "a/s/l?" request.
Don't fear the government. Fear MS.
If I perform a search on the word 'Echelon' right now, I can find maybe one thousand articles dealing with Echelon, so it is a pretty well-known system by now
Uh, try 397,000
-no broken link
now thats just cruel... within 5 minutes the page is slashdotted and five people setup mirrors - and for it they lose karma. Nice one moderators.
This is a fake story check out the eyespy magazine for the real story..
You guys got duped..
By the way I am glad i have pgp and gnupgp..
Power of Individuals trumps Censorship and Illegal Control!
Don't Tread on OpenSource
Yet the architect for Echelon II indirectly reveals some secrets to us. One of the ways Echelon works is by using words and voice recognition, as well as automatic translation
Umm yeah, nobody thought it did that.
I can just see it - the lead architect of Echelon II is lead into a smoke-filled room filled with the world leaders of the global industrial-military complex and they show him footage of the Kennedy assasination filmed from what could only have been the grassy knoll...and they say to him "Yeah, you go right ahead and tell the public about Echelon II."
Right...
cogito ergo sig...
Think about it, it listens in on everything we say and type. I know it must be automatically programmed into the SAC/NORAD so it can automatically launch offsenives if it monitors a phone call or email warning of an impending attack. With all this "human", "unfiltered" knowledge going through it, it shouldn't be long before it becomes self aware and after listening to umpteen gazillion phone calls that are so incredibly mundane and banal, it realizes that humans are hardly worth the carbon they're based on, then decides to take over the planet.
Here is a mirror site.
hahahaha... bunch of idiot moding today!!!
Take a look at the two posts here.. this one, which is moded twice as redundant, and the one above it (if you're set for newest first) is moded as 5 informative...
Bunch of idiots didn't set their threads to show OLDEST first.
Then you would notice that the other one is redundant.
Mod me up.. mod me down.. I don't care.. just kick the original moderators in the ass!!!
www.slightlycrewed.com - Because aren't we all?
The evening of Sept. 11 I was watching the news--ABC, probably--and some senator from such and such intelligence committee was on for a few minutes. The anchor was asking him about the plane crash in Pennsylvania, which we all knew very little about at the time.
The anchor said, "There are reports that some phone calls were made on mobile phones from the airplane shortly before it went down. Do you have any more information about this?"
Senator XYZ [matter-of-factly]: "Well there were several calls made and I can't comment on that right now, but we should't have any problem getting the recordings on those."
The anchor moved on to the next question without realizing the impact of what had just been said. But if that wasn't an admission of clandestine listening of routine telephone traffic in the U.S., I don't know what is.
Have fun: Join D.N.A. (National Dyslexics Association)
The satellites are pointed right at you, and can effectively see the color of your eyes. I'd say more but /. is no longer safe.
I can't seem to be able to get to the page. Could it be 1984 already?
Innagoddadavida, BABY!
911 operator: This is 911 can I help you?
Taylor: This is Philip Taylor Kramer
911 operator: This is 911, can I help you sir?
Taylor; Yes you can, I'm going to kill myself and, I want everyone to know,O.J.Simpson is innocent,they did it.
911 operator:O.K.,and what is your name?Hello?Hello?
the preceding comment is my own and in no way reflects the opinion of the Joint Chiefs of Staff
If they were calls to 911, they were recorded anyway. No reason to be paranoid.
- A.P.
"Remember when the U.S. had a drug problem, and then we declared a War On Drugs, and now you can't buy drugs anymore?"
big time. Who's to say this thing won't get (ab)used in a similar manner as the FBI system system a few stories earlier?
Makes me wonder if you could take both stories, slap 'em together in a single email, and really start showing everybody what's out there to be concerned about.http://www.ijet.com/about/management.html
-beme
1971
Now I will have to track down everyone on slashdot
and manufacture some 'accidents'....
Sorry CmdrTaco, but your readership may be about
to decline.
Service guarantees Citizenship! Questions Guarantee GITMO.... Amerika Uber Alles!
"Okay. In short, we have transferred everything I did for the NSA and other services to a private company that then sells intelligence to businesspersons.
I'm sorry, but I don't think you'd be transferring ANYTHING you did *for* the NSA...you might take something you did for the NSA and implement a similar solution, but you're not just going to grab a project and run with it.
We get information on everything from local diseases, outbreaks of malaria epidemics and local unrest to strikes, the weather and traffic conditions. Our customers are large multinational companies like Prudential and Texas Instruments. We also work for institutions like the World Bank and the IMF."
And you need former KGB, NSA, etc agents to check the weather...?
This whole interview strikes me as a little off. Something's not right in Denamrk, here folks.
Twinkies sure taste good for something that is 68% air.
Yeah, but what is the point of having systems like Echelon in use for "national security" if it can't even protect us from things like September 11? What exactly IS it protecting us from?
When will people get off their FUCKING high horses and focus on topics instead of grammer,mods,spelling, etc. I am sick of the low brow comments that have nothing to do with the topics presented.
GET A LIFE
I'm tired of the blatent disinformation spread on slashdot! This seems like some sort of illuminati bulletin board for passing sekrit messages encoded in "crapflood trolls".
Everyone knows that Kennedy shot that damn clone himself! And once the nation had seen "their president" assasinated on live TV, he couldn't very well continue as president, he'd have to answer some very awkward questions.
the preceding comment is my own and in no way reflects the opinion of the Joint Chiefs of Staff
this on april fools day.
This interview is definitely a fake. He throws around real sub-contractor names in an effort to sound believable. However, NSA doesn't contract out the honest-to-God engineering and research work. They contract out the IT-sorta stuff. Thus, there's no way this could be true. How do I know? Mostly because I'm friends with people who work at CSC and NSA. -Erwos
Plausible conjecture should not be misrepresented as proof positive.
If you want people to believe what doesn't exist, deny it's existence. If you want people to not believe what does exist, admit it existence. Basic lesson from Illuminatus!
7 November 2006: The day Americans realized corruption and incompetence weren't addressing 11 September 2001
You should all notice this doesn't tell us anything at all. Not technical specifications, no idea about facilities, and boy do i hope that the automatic translation software they have is better than the stuff on the market at the moment.
I'm starting to think the whole think is just a smoke screen for less high tecvh breaking & entering & pressuring sources for information.
A book by James Bamford called "Body of Secrets" (booksamillon.com) contains tons of info on Echelon... yep they are spying on us and everyone else and they put into one large database which has the NSA's own version of Google ontop. Also governements around the world have access to this database - Bamford shows an example of how someone got blacklisted in various countries due to humor error. I'm not saying the whole deal is a bad or good thing... not until I get my hands on it. *grin*
Read the book... it is awesome.. you'll never look at our government's security system the same way again - we have a powerful system. He covers the whole thing from the start in World War II till now. Has several interesting bits in there - one on the U.S.S. Liberty (background info) incident which is fascinating really - Israel really screwed us over on that one.
As a Danish electronics engineering student I can only say one thing: Ekstra Bladet isn't exactly know to be the most serious newspaper around. It's probably comparable to the Daily Mirror...
He didn't even have anything really to say in the interview. He also admitted that he only was involved at the tail end of the project.
It just struck me as someone hoping to get attention. I imagine he'll probably be fired quite soon if in fact he was involved with a top secret project like that and decided on his own to go to the press of all people... what a maroon..
mje0w!!!1!
I merged with the Helios A.I., so all of this is very exciting.
The Danish newspaper, Ekstra Bladet, which apparently got that story isn't exactly the most "respected" (sorry, english isn't my primary language) newspaper in Denmark. Actually it's quite the opposite - it's one of the least frivolous papers in Denmark and I generally don't take much of their writings too seriously.
Denying the existence of Echelon has been almost impossible since the European Union investigated the matter a few years ago. The investigation was carried out because it was believed that the US government might have been using Echelon to pass commercial sensitive information to US businesses to give them an advance over European competitors.
This is the most balances and best inform study of Echelon that is in the public domain. It can be found at:
http://www.europarl.eu.int/tempcom/echelon/pdf/
Under the 'management team', they have this guy listed. Here is what it says:
.dethgirypoc si gis sihT
Bruce McIndoe was the founder & CEO of CSSi, an Inc.500 and four-time Washington Technology FAST 50 company that developed intelligence collection and processing systems for various national intelligence organizations. Bruce was one of the lead architects for the National Security Agency's Echelon II program, identified as one of the most productive intelligence programs in the agency's history. He was also a major contributor to the Future Signals Intelligence (SIGINT) Systems Architecture Program, several major Communications Security (COMSEC) programs and numerous technical programs. After successfully growing CSSi to 150 people and $17 million in annual revenues, Bruce sold the company to Nichols Research Corporation where he became VP Enterprise Applications and then VP Sales & Marketing with Nichols InfoTec. Prior to joining iJET, he was President of B2B Web Solutions specializing in supply chain automation using the Internet and XML technologies. Bruce holds an M.S. in Computer Science from Johns Hopkins University and is a trustee of Allegheny College, where he received his B.S. in Physics.
Call me skeptical, but if it's so secret, why would they allow someone to be flaunting the fact that they built it? Wouldn't that make this guy a major target for kidnapping or something like that?
And unless his World Link ($7.95/day one week minimum) can warn him when someone is approaching him with intentions of harming him, I don't think the NSA would allow it.
---
the only echelon i care about is this echelon
Ignore him. Ignore this entire interview. It's pure psywar by the GWB cabinet.
The new order is coming and it is going to be run by the Republican religious right nuts like Mr. Ashcroft.
Our last years as a nation with full sexual, intellectual and spiritual freedoms were the Clinton years. See how hard they came on Clinton for having extramarital (oral) sex with someone else than his wife? That was just a taste. An attack on individual's right. What's going to happen next is a full blown attack on the rights of the entire nation. Be pure, be vigilant, be Christian. Nuke the rest of them terrorists and let God sort them out.
Don't forget this George Bush quote: "No, I don't know that Atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God.". These guys are our own intolerant, fanatical and merciless Talibans and it is imperative that you will not vote for them in 2004.
The government is a complex organ made up of many layers some really good and some really bad. The truth is the government is out of control and is more bloated then Windows XP. The syndicated press is not free they have operatives pushing the content of the news you see. CBS, ABC, NBC, its all the same nightly news you would think that they would have different news but no they report the same sound bytes. America has the best government and news that money can buy. Privacy you say there is no privacy Big Brother is watching you in a low key way but it is still no better then the KGB. America talks out both sides of its mouth listen to a white house press briefing of a state department briefing and they are reading cut and paste from a script book. We the people are the ones that can change this but like Washington, Jefferson, Hamilton, Franklin, and Adams found out that when you go against the corrupt ones you are going to have a struggle with them. After much debate with King George they boycotted the King and then King George got pissed and sent the war ships. Well in the end King George and his redcoats got their ass whipped and went on home. You know the rest of the story.
Seriously, I heard that too. It struck me quite strongly, and I -wished- I had been taping it. If only someone who did would capture it and post it somewhere.
---
the pen is mightier than the sword, the sword is mightier than the court, the court is mightier than the pen.
Echelon is the largest contributor to the exasperation that Europe feels towards America. Essentially, Europe is happy to back the US line on everything as they, too, stand to gain from the promoting the fantasy of a free market that puts the rest of the world at a permanent disadvantage.
What stuns European leaders is the fact the US is just as enthusiastic about screwing them: using this incredibly sophisticated spy network, lavishly funded by the American people, to undermine European companies, all the while evangelistically talking up the idea of Free Markets.
And the kicker is that, in order not to rock the boat, the European leaders have to pretend they don't know that Echelon exists! So far only the Netherlands government has officially acknowledged what everyone already knows.
Here's an article describing the growing concerns of America's most important partner. The main problem is that the contradiction between the Free Market talk and actual actions such as Echelon threaten to stoke a widespread antipathy towards America.
BTW, I'm so tired of the way in which any post that in any way examines American foreign policy gets modded down. If we're discussing Echelon, of all things, we should be able to discuss it's real implications without feeling that someone is attacking the American Way of Life.
Here are the automatic mirrors: http://www.eu.cryptome.org/echelon2-arch.htm http://www.nl.cryptome.org/echelon2-arch.htm http://www.at.cryptome.org/echelon2-arch.htm
Slashdot needs to figure out some automatic mirroring scheme to avoid shutting down useful sites. Make it available to subscribers only if you have to.
Moderators smoking cheap shit $3 crack again.
Bah. SkyNet has been in existance for 10+ years.
It was the 'brandname' for an AT&T product. AT&T then changed its name, but the product still exists.
How do we know if they are abusing the power of Echelon? Easy.
One of the scary facts of Intelligence is having to intentionally not act on it.
For example, we broke the German codes during WWII. We knew way too much. But yet to act on that info (saving Allied lives in the process) would tip our hand, the Germans would change encryption, and we would lose our advantage.
So what advantage did we have? The Big Picture. Which allowed us to "randomly" take advantage of weak points, etc. Allowing us to win the overall objective: National Security (and win the war).
So how does this relate here? If the NSA et al actually used this massive field of info to help small, pathetic things (saving an individual life, helping an individual company, saying "tsk, tsk" about naughty e-mail suggestions to your secretary), that would not have survived any other way, then the NSA would be giving up their hand.
By not caring about day to day affairs of people and the world, they are free to inform heads of government about grave threats to national security and then play the chess game which follows.
If the NSA began abusing this power, eg, a lot of NSA employees making it big on the stock market, or the guvmint coming to your door asking about e-mail sent to your tailor in the middle east, etc. There would be huge public outrage.
The truth of the matter is, the intel weenies aren't hitting it big on the market. I have not been harassed for getting hand-tailored suits from the middle east (I was stationed there btw). And the average joe isn't getting harassed by NSA for copyright infringment, etc...
Just my 1/50th of a dollar.
The USA Patriot Act is another matter entirely.
Abort, Retry, Fail?
Well, we've already got a mighty fine two party system.
I bet we could improve it by going down to only one party. That way we could avoid the nasty bipartisan arguments of the late...
I actually expected him to say something like, "Our contracts stipulated that we had to wait two years before doing competing work. The case is pending."
Have you read my journal today?
well if it is there is something wrong. Ekstra Bladet is a tabloid news paper and is very fast putting up headlines on their webpage about tomorrows stories.
Either this story would be on the front page, thus telling people to buy the paper tomorrow, or it would be an article on the webpart of the paper.
Neither is the fact. There is nothing about Echelon II on Ekstra Bladet. Is this year old news or what?
Our ability to deny the existance of echelon went out the window when politicians started demanding more use of echelon to gather inteligence in the wake of sept 11.
Echelon is both more pervasive AND less effective than people think.
I.E. Echelon did not help stop September 11.
Someone could practically give away all of the official records regarding Echelon and nobody would believe the documentation was real. Very effective. I'm impressed.
My opinion is that this interview might as well be real because the interviewee made some rational points about the secrecy of these projects. The planners have to be able to talk about these systems, but that doesn't mean operational details of the systems are being divulged every time the projects are mentioned (even by people who are in a position to speak knowledgeably about such topics).
I recall this thing on the Discovery channel that was an interview with a senior guy from Area 51 -- I didn't believe that either.
I am not a number! I am a man! And don't you
Repeat after me...
"Os@ma Bin L@den...."
Unless I see hard evidence that it's providing any real value, it's just a political toy being masqueraded as a security measure. To put this in perspective, it's the politician's answer to the miracle pill we're all looking for that will restore our health after years of neglect.
that monkeyboy bush and his own private war on terrorism are just trying to make new conacts and bases for the good of international espionage.
Chief Executive Officer
Bruce McIndoe was the founder & CEO of CSSi, an Inc.500 and four-time Washington Technology FAST 50 company that developed intelligence collection and processing systems for various national intelligence organizations. Bruce was one of the lead architects for the National Security Agency's Echelon II program, identified as one of the most productive intelligence programs in the agency's history. He was also a major contributor to the Future Signals Intelligence (SIGINT) Systems Architecture Program, several major Communications Security (COMSEC) programs and numerous technical programs. After successfully growing CSSi to 150 people and $17 million in annual revenues, Bruce sold the company to Nichols Research Corporation where he became VP Enterprise Applications and then VP Sales & Marketing with Nichols InfoTec. Prior to joining iJET, he was President of B2B Web Solutions specializing in supply chain automation using the Internet and XML technologies. Bruce holds an M.S. in Computer Science from Johns Hopkins University and is a trustee of Allegheny College, where he received his B.S. in Physics.
Just remember folks, sometimes intentionally leaking misinformation can be even more useful than just staying quiet.
But then again, no government would knowingly participate in a campaign of misinformation... right?
- The auditors said to secure the server... hand me that duct-tape -
Don't forget this George Bush quote: "No, I don't know that Atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God.".
Please cite references!
just for fun, I decided to find out what they run their site on -
Netcraft sez -
The site www.ijet.com is running Microsoft-IIS/4.0 on NT4/Windows 98
From ./'s blurb:
From the article:
Aren't most architects involved before something is built? Is it really that hard to get this kind of thing right?
Cheers
-b
Hell, it says right in his bio: "Bruce was one of the lead architects for the National Security Agency's Echelon II program".
I would not find it suprizing if the article is valid. A project that big will have lots of people involved... it's hard to keep everyone quiet.
This guy's name should be "McIndoo-doo" he is so full of shit. I would be surprised if he was a ten-fingered typist much less an "architect" of Echelon. I've read more convincing interviews of "Area 51 engineers".
I'd love to ask this loser some basic sigint questions in public and watch him squirm.
It would seem obvious to me, but I haven't seen anyone point out that this was useless against al Qaeda. Supposedly, bin Laden and them all communicate personally through close family ties, not with the use of pgp or e-mail. So not only is this a waste of money, a violation of our civil rights, and a great wedge between the US and Europe, but it, ah, well, that's about it, actually. Hope this isn't redundant.
Dan
Found at http://www.ijet.com/about/management.html . His employee profile even says he helped design Echelon II.
Bruce McIndoe was the founder & CEO of CSSi, an Inc.500 and four-time Washington Technology FAST 50 company that developed intelligence collection and processing systems for various national intelligence organizations. Bruce was one of the lead architects for the National Security Agency's Echelon II program, identified as one of the most productive intelligence programs in the agency's history. He was also a major contributor to the Future Signals Intelligence (SIGINT) Systems Architecture Program, several major Communications Security (COMSEC) programs and numerous technical programs. After successfully growing CSSi to 150 people and $17 million in annual revenues, Bruce sold the company to Nichols Research Corporation where he became VP Enterprise Applications and then VP Sales & Marketing with Nichols InfoTec. Prior to joining iJET, he was President of B2B Web Solutions specializing in supply chain automation using the Internet and XML technologies. Bruce holds an M.S. in Computer Science from Johns Hopkins University and is a trustee of Allegheny College, where he received his B.S. in Physics.
Hope you're not using the public key algorithms in PGP and GnuPG if your paranoid about the NSA. Consider that the NSA typically is 15 years ahead of the academics in security (hence DES' security against differential cryptanalysis). Recently there's been some talk about being able to factor 3x as many bits just as quickly; imagine what factoring breakthroughs the NSA has made...
If you want something really secure, exchange keys privately and use a secure private key block cipher in CBC mode, and pray that the NSA hasn't broken your block cipher...
I wrote to my congressmen about Echelon, only one replied. He said that he was on a congressional committee charged with investigating Echelon which repeatedly questioned the military and has repeatedly been stonewalled, publically told that it does not exist. He was genuinely pissed about it. This is positive proof that parts of the military are no longer responsive to government. (I wonder what happens when all of it is unresponsive?)
The European Parliment is also upset about Echelon. Germany has strong evidence that german Echelon stations have been used for industrial espionage. I recall that Japan was upset when it was learned that their private calls between negotiators were being spied on during high-level trade-talks.
I have no doubt that the information yeilded from the system has been used for good purposes, like preventing terrorist attacks and such. It ihas also been misused. It is my opinion that you can not use fascist tactics in defense of democracy.
A good source of information on Echelon is the ACLU: http://www.aclu.org/echelonwatch/faq.html The ACLU even have a simple way to send your congressmen a fax about it. http://www.aclu.org/action/echelon107.html
Let them know. Use your vote or you may lose it.
=brian (a coward, but not an anonymous coward)
either don't vote for them, or participate in domestic terrorism...
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Whoring here, but:
Extensive Information on Echelon. Note that the ACLU is investigating. Or was, until it became neccessary for "combatting terrorism."
Keep in mind our government is using this information to KILL PEOPLE.
But I digress. Form your own conclusions.
Cool! Amazing Toys.
Undoubtedly, they taped it.
This sig under construction. Please check back later.
Or are you just a double agent trying to twist his truthful words...god where does it end!
He also appears in this Washinton post article
/ 02 / etro_ijet040402.htm
http://discuss.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/zforum
I only got too things out of it:
1) Echelon exists
2) This guy helped build it.
i made the program. i designed and coded it. ask the nsa, but they'll probably refuse to even acknowledge that it exists.
also i worked on the timetravel and anti-grav boot projects. no, really.
four-oh-four
See how hard they came on Clinton for having extramarital (oral) sex with someone else than his wife?
How do you have extramarital sex with your wife?
Lucky for me I get all this info for free from my gf, who is a news-TV junkie. :)
'ekstra bladet' is a very tabloid newspaper willing to print anything that will sell issues. one of the first newspapers to include a pinup model every thuesday. read with caution
Here
"Bruce McIndoe was the founder & CEO of CSSi, an Inc.500 and four-time Washington Technology FAST 50 company that developed intelligence collection and processing systems for various national intelligence organizations. Bruce was one of the lead architects for the National Security Agency's Echelon II program, identified as one of the most productive intelligence programs in the agency's history. He was also a major contributor to the Future Signals Intelligence (SIGINT) Systems Architecture Program, several major Communications Security (COMSEC) programs and numerous technical programs. After successfully growing CSSi to 150 people and $17 million in annual revenues, Bruce sold the company to Nichols Research Corporation where he became VP Enterprise Applications and then VP Sales & Marketing with Nichols InfoTec. Prior to joining iJET, he was President of B2B Web Solutions specializing in supply chain automation using the Internet and XML technologies. Bruce holds an M.S. in Computer Science from Johns Hopkins University and is a trustee of Allegheny College, where he received his B.S. in Physics."
here is a link to some mirrors
HERE
Bruce McIndoe was the founder & CEO of CSSi, an Inc.500 and four-time Washington Technology FAST 50 company that developed intelligence collection and processing systems for various national intelligence organizations. Bruce was one of the lead architects for the National Security Agency's Echelon II program, identified as one of the most productive intelligence programs in the agency's history. He was also a major contributor to the Future Signals Intelligence (SIGINT) Systems Architecture Program, several major Communications Security (COMSEC) programs and numerous technical programs. After successfully growing CSSi to 150 people and $17 million in annual revenues, Bruce sold the company to Nichols Research Corporation where he became VP Enterprise Applications and then VP Sales & Marketing with Nichols InfoTec. Prior to joining iJET, he was President of B2B Web Solutions specializing in supply chain automation using the Internet and XML technologies. Bruce holds an M.S. in Computer Science from Johns Hopkins University and is a trustee of Allegheny College, where he received his B.S. in Physics.
I believe you're looking at two sides of the same coin though when you compare Bush and Clinton. They are both deeply connected in a view of decimating rights. Forget abortion, education, environment, or what have you for a moment and look at what they agree on.
The American political structure has no opposing viewpoints. If there were, then we would have REAL leaders (both dems and repubs) who would be opposed to the wholesale monitoring and herding of our population.
As of now, the constitution is on sale to the highest bidder.
It is not like the interview revealed anything. Absolutely nothing of importance was mentioned that you can not find elsewhere. The thing is, I think this interview is real.
This doesn't prove the case, but Bruce McIndoe is mentioned on the net. Here is his official biographical blurb on IJet's web site: . Everything there corroborates the interview. His bio hypes him up, but that doesn't mean it is totally false.
I just don't understand why everyone is so skeptical about this interview. It wasn't even particularly interesting. I would understand the cynicism if Mr McIndoe had actually said something of interest, but since he said exactly the things (nothing juicy or outrageous or even anything more than mildly interesting) I would expect someone to say who is involved in such projects, I don't have any reason to doubt the credibility of the article.
I think you are on the wrong track. Yes, normally the media is suspect, but in this case the interview seems very real. As you notice you can even double check their infomation on the website of his new company.
Q: So what is it?
A: Well what does it look like?
It looks standard sales hype. A company selling intelligence claims to have employed a former NSA agent who worked on Echelon II.
It is SO convinient that neither NSA nor Echelon officially exist so there is no one to refute their claim!
Ofcause it might be legit, but I really suspect NSA only use lifetime contracts. You can resign; but only when your dead, otherwise it will be arranged.
Way to trash Cryptome's website! Not to mention cost them a tidy sum in bandwidth. F*ing /. wankers!
This poster's name secretly replaced with Folgers Crystal Meth
You make a good point, but keep in mind that large, mature software systems that live on for years will continually have projects to enhance functionality and performance. Even echelon, if it's in maintenance mode, could need new architects for performance tweaks and whatnot.
;-) .
But, just as easily, this guy's full of crap and was just a co-op when echelon was finishing up
I made a search on Google for "duncan campbell echelon", and the first server in the list was removed. Not just the pages, the entire server. Please don't search for Campbells reports, or they might shut down slashdot too...
I can't imagine this thread not being monitored by the boys and girls at Echelon II, so I just thought I'd say hi! And ask when we might get to see the source for this l33t software?
"Academicians are more likely to share each other's toothbrush than each other's nomenclature."
Cohen
So how much do I have to pay for a shell on this thing?
I have to admit, I got more information about Echolon from a talk on DDJ's Technetcast:
m l?st ream_id=423
'ECHELON and The Insecurity Industry' at
http://technetcast.ddj.com/tnc_play_stream.ht
bash$
I didn't think Canada ever denied it. I'm also not sure that anyone ever asked though ;)
:)
all I can say is that a buddy of mine had an opportunity to see it in action and couldn't mention much more... and this was in Canada... if we Canada uses a monitoring technique, you can be damned sure it was the NSA that loaned it to us
Oh god, that woman is John Romero!
Atheism has no absolute moral foundation (atheist ethics are essentially based on 'whim'), therefore it is the enemy of the entire civilized world, including America.
Fnord
The Echelon project cannot be completely implemented due to the Echelon paradox:
So it's impossible to classify every information in the internet and make it avaiable without add more information to the internet.
That's why I don't believe that Echelon is watching me now.
-=-=-=-=
I know life isn't fair, but why can't it ever be un-fair in MY favor!?
You are speaking as a Brit, aren't you ?
If it was not for the work done by a group of exceptionally clever people at Bletchley park (Station X), including people such as Dr Alan Turing, we'd all be living in the thousand year Reich.
Or we could all be happily dead
Think about it. If this guy did work work on that kind of stuff, he wouldn't be blabbing about it to the world.
He's just trying to get credibility and publicity to his business of reselling AP newswire reports to gullible folks, telling them that there's unrest in the Middle East, Jews being torched in France, bombs being dropped in Afghanistan, terrorist threats to NY and Washington, and other nasty places in the world to keep out of.
neither NSA nor Echelon officially exist...
Uh, not only does the NSA exist, it even has a website, complete with slightly worrying kids' section.
The conclusion of your syllogism, I said lightly, is fallacious, being based on licensed premises
something like (paraphrasing) "I'll explain to you american politics... 'The puppet on the right is closer to my beliefs' ... 'No, the puppet on the left is closer to my beliefs' ... 'Hey, wait a minute, the puppets are on the hands of the same guy' ... 'Shhhhh!'"
Code or be coded.
Informaton wants to be free. Please send me your Credit Card number.
It amazes me, sometimes, how utterly ignorant most Americans are about their own history. If you don't recognize these names, look them up.
"I do not find in orthodox Christianity one redeeming feature."
--- Thomas Jefferson
"The government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion."
--- George Washington
All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian, or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit.
--- Thomas Paine
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PGP Key ID 0xCB8FF658
the DoD (Department of Defense) has funded voice recognition and automatic translation software for over twentty years; where do you think babelfish comes from, seriously? the origins of this software can be traced to systrans, who had DoD contracts during and after the vietnam war.
the european reaction to echelon stems largely from the americans' usage of this technology to overturn an aerospace contract with a middle-east airline awarded on the basis of kickbacks and corruption. this was the first exposure of the potential of this technology. i'm sure the outline of this story could be framed with a trio of google queries; its pursuit is left as an exercise for the reader.
as regards sigint, the french are the only non-echelon (US,UK,Aus & Nz) that have any capability to rival that of echelon, due to their island-based listening stations(think the caribbean and the south pacific, as well as brittainy for transatlantique).
the only significant task remaining is recognition algorithms, seperating the wheat from the chafe, via compression, streaming, and the application of fuzzy logic to voice data.
anonymous? are you kidding?
While I agree wholeheartedly with the sentiment, the second quote is not from George Washington; it dates from a later time--I think it was when US vessels were being hassled by the Barbary pirates. (Ah...it was in the 1797 Treaty of Tripoli, during the Adams administration.)
-Echy
(hey, it's easier to replace into conversations that 'Lord Protector', no?)
What ever happened to the 5th ammendment? Doesn't this have any pressence in such situations? If I can refuse to give information when I'm sworn in on the witness chair, why can I have no say over if they listen to my phone calls?
Question
http://www.ironfroggy.com/
You're correct. I have my sources mixed up, that quote is DEFINITELY from the Adams era.
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PGP Key ID 0xCB8FF658
He hasn't wasted any time and obviously ran a background check on the two curious reporters from Denmark, and it all took less than an hour.
... and it took me less then one minute to discover that two fellas are indeed reportes from Denmark, and indeed they have written a whole lot about spies, intelligence and Echelon.
Forget about Echelon, use Google!
And here Sir, on this diagram we see that the landing gear on the Iranian jet is lowered by a water sheep - er, hydraulic ram.
Isn't DMCA going to stop this Echelon project?
Or.. Or.. If goverment may sniff networks, so how come regular geeg may not?
Yeah, big secret: voice recognition & translation.
Watch "TRUE LIES", DUDE!
Large chunks of the WWII-era plotline in Cryptonomicon are pinned on precisely this problem (how to make best use of the broken Enigma ciphers without letting Germany know that Enigma has been broken).
Anybody who thinks this is a simple, clear issue should pull his head out of his ass and go read that book. (The book is good regardless, but also goes to show that the problems of the intelligence community haven't changed much.)
You cannot apply a technological solution to a sociological problem. (Edwards' Law)
But in my opinion, pretending it doesn't exist just isn't an option. Especially not after September eleventh.
and Eschelon helped prevent the 9/11 tragedy EXACTLY HOW?
The only thing disturbing about the kids' section is the horrible navigation and site design.
Trying to find my way through it made my brain hurt.