Slashdot Mirror
Complete Net Cafe Shutdown After Beijing Fire
lunchlady doris writes: "The BBC has this story that tells of a fire in an internet cafe in Beijing that killed 24 people. The mayor responded to this tragedy by shutting down all 2,400 cafes in the city, most of which are operated illegally. Only 200 cafes will be allowed to reopen, pending municipal regulation. Needless to say, the netizens of Beijing are pissed and see this as a move to quash the limited access to the net that the Chinese people currently have."
Recently China's been acting quite belligerently towards N. Korean refugees trying to escape into the embassies of free nations. The first one was the Japanese embassy on May 10. The latest one was a few days ago at the S. Korean embassy. They have been entering embassy grounds and forcibly removing refugees from sovereign territory.
This closing of Internet cafes is indicative of something, perhaps a new crackdown on freedoms as the Chinese populace is exposed to more and more visions of freedom seekers being beat down at the gates of the S. Korean embassy or a mother and grandmother beaten up at the Japanese embassy.
I have been pwned because my
If the netcafe is already illegal, does saying "please, shutdown() your netcafe, it's illegal" change anything :)
... the Chinese gov would admit it's responsibilities regarding the incident did you? If the internet cafe was allowed to be legal, no emergency exits would be locked. Sorry, no sig.
"You laugh at me because I am different. I laugh at you because you're all the same." --Vick Imbornoni
Yep.
A free communist state is better than a free capitalist state.
An oppressive capitalist dictatorship is worse than an oppressive communist dictatorship.
Any oppressive dictatorship is worse than and free state.
What's your point?
Lets try to burn 1 microsoft's office at China
check whether all microsoft's office in China closed or not
-- Hasbullah bin Pit (sebol)
Is this the chinese way of fire safety? If a police station burns to the ground they have to shut down all the offices in the citym just to be sure.
Or is this just another way to prevent their citizens from getting inspiret by western websites all over the world?
If it's wet, Drink it!
It's easy to jump on the mayor for being a censor tyrant for this action, and some conspiracy buffs will undoubtedly claim the fire was set by the authorities on purpose. I think the real cause is the cavalier lack of any safety measures. Most of these cafés were illegal most likely because they didn't conform to any sort of building codes or grease the right palms.
After the excitement dies back down, several of these cafés will be up and running again, most likely under new aliases and at new locations.
I doubt that this will have more than a temporary effect. Even on fire safety.
I really don't see why 'the netizen would be upset'. A lot of the resident in big city, espeically like Beijing, have interenet access at home, even broad ban if you are lucky enough to stay in a modern building. The so-called internet cafe are really for teenagers to enjoy networked gameing (LAN), and sometimes to view pornographic content on the web, which is illegal anyway. It is ridiculous to judge that this is a way the goverment use to stop the 'netizen' to access the internet.
It only takes a little cynicism to take the view that this is an opportunity for China to shut down something they don't like. To be honest, does one fire in one cybercafe really justify the closure of all such establishments?
What do ya get when you mix a little Bluetooth here, a dazzle of WiFi there and a hint of Communists everywhere? A recipe for chaos!
The BSA doesn't mess around in those developing countries, does it?! Betcha the 200 shops that re-open will have their documents in order...
"He who throws mud, loses ground." - proverb
Come on you know you want your citizens downloading streams of Eminem in tights. Just admit it!
Just playing devil's advocate...
UNIX? They're not even circumcised! Savages!
the real condition of these illegal net cafes.....
Think a large room with only one door(maybe two... second one likely locked) and 100-200 conmputers with a few hundred people. When they do things here they tend to do it big.
Windows are often barred as well so if there is a fire near an exit.... you can imagine the results.
This is why they are shutting down the cafes.... they are death traps.
As for controlling Internet access.... they want to limit the hours and the ages of the people who can access it - stop school children wasting their time there and it also means you have to be an adult to use it outside of school holidays.
most are illegal in that they are not registered which means there are no government safety checks.
It also means they do no adheere to the strict rules of who can access the net and when. Think the rules are if it is school holidays then people from 16-18 can access it. Outside of this time it is adult sonly and only during certain times of the day.
Cool.
After I started filtering out on Korean netblocks 95% of the SPAM I get is chinese. So this got to be good.
I would buy the mayor a few of what he drinks.
To the moderator: don't mod it down as flamebait. Ask someone who has ever tried to find an abuse@ for a netblock in that part of the world first.
Baker's Law: Misery no longer loves company. Nowadays it insists on it
http://www.sigsegv.cx/
I write to clear things up just in case some people immediate jumping into issues of free speech and human rights.
:(
The students are killed as all possible exits were either blocked or locked up.
The building has only one entrance/exit, and it was locked at the time of fire, and the windows were barred with steel. As a matter of fact the owner didn't get proper license to open an Internet cafe and the door was always locked to avoid inspection. The windows were barred to prevent thievery, and it's not unusual to see many factories and commercial buildings have their windows barred for this reason.
As a result the authority shutdown all Internet cafes for safety and license inspection. In fact only 1/10 of the Internet cafes got proper commercial license for. It's not an action against civilians' Internet access, at least not directly.
Of course, I'd expect people in Beijing has tough time accessing Internet in the future, as the conservative people would sneak chance to impose more restrictions.
Your friendly chinese communist party PR at work.
Of course they could have shut down most of the cafes before, since they were illegal, but that would expose them to international pressure and make them look like tyrants deemed to deny freedom and anonymity.
Now, they have the perfect excuse. Under the banner of "think of the fires", they can close down most of the cafes and start imposing strict regulations and control on the remaining ones. If any of the remaining ones fails to comply, they can always audit them for fire regulations compliance, and subsequently shut them down.
And what will the international community say? Nothing. What can you say?
Any kind of totalitary regime comes with its own risks. Abuse of power comes to mind as a prominent one. The Chinese government will always leverage their existing power in order to maitain and obtain more power. Frankly, I don't know how a one-billion-people country can be ruled. I don't even know if a democratic regime as we know it would ever work there. But I'm sure that it can't be much worse than it already is.
free the mallocs!
If that would have been any other kind of building in town, nobody else would care.
The reality is that, "Investigators blamed the high death toll on locked emergency exits. " This is all there is to the story.
Shit happens.
People who go the Cafes are mostly teenagers. Closing the net cafes does not affect anything at all for most Internet surfers.
I can remember, several years ago, there was a huge fire in a dance club, which killed hundreds of people. The city closed all its dance clubs for one month and only allow those which has the right license and meets fire standards to reopen. I think it is the same thing here for Net Cafes. It has nothing to do with quashing the Internet access. It can't.
Notes: I just checked with friends in China. They can acess slashdot.com and cnn.com without any limitation.
Can they access the S. Korean embassy without getting their heads bashed in?
For the safety of those around you, the Internet should only be used outdoors. Just outside every building you can see groups of people clustered together, off to the side so they don't block traffic through the doors. Even in winter you'll see them outside for several minutes at a time.
It would appear the consensus so far is that Internet is a good thing and therefore all access should be free and open. I would tend to agree, although what is clear is this: any government saying something is illegal, or immoral, or expressing concern about the effect it might have on young people, tends to stigmatise it, but also to make it more attractive. Internet will not be seen as a learning tool if the government suggest that young people should not be spending a lot of time with it. Just like parents years ago bemoaned computer games and too much time in front of those things, but at least then (before the Sega Megadrive and Nintendo Entertainment System, at least) most home machines had a keyboard and taught people like me the basic skills to then get into REAL computing.
Internet should not be discouraged. It is a basic skill that the younger generation will need to progress in the increasingly digital economy. I don't mean computer programming, I mean basic business management and productivity increases by leveraging the power of IT. China (or any other régime for that matter) is making a mistake by making Internet taboo. Late night surfing, on these kid's own free time, should be encouraged. Making porn or whatever illegal usually does not help. I always remember that during prohibition in the US, alcohol consumption rose, and I think now of the UK where tough drug laws are doing nothing to stop alarming increases in heroin addiction.
Still, China has a long long way to go. So do many developing nations. Until the incumbent powers that be have embraced Internet themselves, they are onto a loser. Sad, because it is because of reasons like this that the younger generations are not getting enough time in front of the Internet to start noticing the finer netiquette of things, since they are effectively involved in illegal activity just by surfing in those places, and are therefore unlikely to be good netizens...
Conversion Rate Optimisation French / English consultant
Fire is fire, it killed lots of people. Chinese government need a solution to deal with it (maybe this is not the best one, but neither is it the worst one)!
Why are you guys / gals so much like to link any tragedy happened in China to something irrelavent (blocking internet access, political stuffs)?
If there is an illegally (without license, tax report) opened netcafe in your country, will you shutdown it or not?
Please think twice before you happily relate anything happened in China to political stuffs.
Great, now the owners of those cafes will need other ways to earn money without people sitting in front of their computers. Like selling access to open email relays.
As a Yank writing from Shenzhen, China, let me add - lay off the China-bashing, guys. The country is making great strides in dozens of areas. Some hightlights are WTO, urban development, legal/admin legistrative reform, capitalism, technology, and, dare I say it, democracy and human rights. If you want to know more, read about it. The people in this country *stongly* support their government and it's track record of growth, stability and success, and guess what - there's more of 'em than there are you, so under democratic rules, you lose. :)
;)
And before you start whining about democracy, how many of you voted for your CEO or board of directors? Get over it.
Not merely offtopic, also retarded. Sadly there is no such moderation comment.
Iron bars prevented the escape of customers, who screamed vainly for help at the windows as the building burned. The cafe was located in a hi-tech sector of the city, with two universities. Most of the dead were students, according to the article.
New regulations will be drawn up for operation of these Cafes, and those who comply will be allowed to reopen. I suppose that firewalls, as well as fire escapes, will be on the list of requirements.
Don't be silly. They get their heads cut off.
The Chinese gov't wants to keep a check on the number of people developing individualism. This is an oxymoron for the Chinese gov't, if left unchecked, could lead to revolt, and eventually democracy. The powers that be will not allow this and thus must continue conditioniting their people to be drones disguised as patriotism. Now with the cafe accident, they now have a perfect excuse to flex their muscles and at the same time not being criticized by the rest of the world.
Hey, you all gotta know that all those net cafes are giving REALLY bad conditions and with all doors and windows locked, bad ventilation, etc. and this is why they are not allowed to have a license. moreover, any government stopping those running illegal business is definitely correct. I believe that china is correct on this move. Moreover, I do believe that this move is only due to the fire in beijing and not due to political reasons, this is since they've already got a proxy blocking everything they don't want their people to see... (oh what a bad act...) to conclude, although it's true that they are _actually_ doing bad in terms of freedom, their act these days _are_ correct, and are good to people :-)
- a Hong Kong chinese...
To be honest, does one fire in one cybercafe really justify the closure of all such establishments?
:)
No of course not! It justifies the closure of the entire internet for safety reasons however! please unplug your computer now
--see thats a joke people.. humor.. itz a good thing..
well, lets suppose a fire broke in a netcafe in the US or some other EU country . DO you really think that the authorities would respond to it by shutting down alla the net-cafes ?
/. articles would reveal this as well ...
Once again, the Chinese goverment IS actually trying to stop information from flowing. Its a fact, there is no need to relate this to anything.
Searching previous
The communists has been trying to get rid of cyber cafes for a while now.. they started by filtering all of the cafes, then they forced many of them to close down. They published an article about a guy dieing from playing too many video games not too long ago, which is total BS.
Isn't it incredibly obvious? CHINA IS TRYING TO SHUT DOWN THE CYBER CAFES.
I wouldn't be surprised if the communist party STARTED this fire, just so they could add this to their big pile of "destroy the evil internet" paperwork, which has gotten pretty damn big over the last year. Don't even bother rebuttling my points, theres articles all over the news that confirm my suspicion, just search for "china cyber cafe" on the BBC, and watch it pour in.
It surprised a lot of folks here that the government slammed all the cafes closed after the incident. This kind of things happened in the past, but the deaths happening in Beijing was embarassing...its more serious as Beijing's the capital and not some outback town. Complete shutdown's still surprising though.
Anyone above who said this is the government's way of controlling Chinese netizens from accessing information is still living 20 years in the past. Others were correct...folks with computers easily and cheaply have access from home (and can view whatever they want for the most part) Second, aside from the teens, most surfing's done at the office place through corp. lans. Third, correct again to the folks who id'ed teenagers as the netbars' main consumers (demo's: lan game users, no access to work LAN, no computer at home)
Furthermore, a few weeks ago the regulators suddenly lifted the ban on many sites that had traditionally been off limits (particularly western news orgs: cnn,la times, npr, boston globe, san fran chronicle, antlanta journo-constitution, the washington globe) Intersting...
living here for the past few years I've always been able to get slashdot (unless intl. gateways too crowded)
On the other side of the fence, Beijing's PSB stated it would begin another clean up campaign, inspecting and checking content. (announced last month) This is particularly interesting to note when paralleled with the fact there will be major government changes at the end of this year, and perhaps is a means for China to manage the social climate. (China's top three leaders Jiang Zimin, Zhu Rong Ji, and Li Peng will effectively retire)
Last note of interest: the PSB cracked down on many Chinese content providers including Tom.com, Sina, and fm365 last month. The PSB raided Beijing offices on the anniversary of TianAnMen after the content providers had placed news about this event on their sites. The sites will be punished for publishing 'unsuitable' content, although punishment is still not clear.
2400 in beijing? Thats a lot of cybercafes .. damn.
.. I guess the chinese are waiting for pc prices to drop .. and then it'll be a huge market.
How many are in NYC? 2? 3?
why does china have so many cybercafes? does anyone know?
is the price of computers too high?
hmm
fear.
-Johan
How is it that the powers that be equate the death of its citizens as an excuse for taking away rights of those same citizens. I thought the loss of 3000 lives in 9/11 was a lame excuse for the FBI to be granted sweeping powers. (of course later we discover it is becouse of FBI incompetance that it happened at all but of course the powers are still thiers.)
I guess the chinese government has out done america in stupid over reaction. 1,000,000,000 minus 24 is how many?
I studied abroad in China for tge past year, and I was at one of the best universities in the country, supposedly, and guess how many exit doors were unlocked during class? 1 set of double doors.
this is during class at a university. The building easily had 500+ students in it.
Re: access to cnn and slashdot.
that's not exactly completely true. right now, I'm studying in china, and I can't get cnn.com from my dial-up, but I can get slashdot.
I can see that the chinese government is getting pissed off on all starting internet cafés. It will eventually kill the great tea-culture. What is needed is a proper Internet tea-house that serves both tcp/ip and Assam, Darjeeling, Jasmine and Green tea.
Still trying to figure out how my online rights are affected by this...
Who run Barter Town?
http://www.msnbc.com/c/0/79/943/ssMain.asp?fmt=Chi ld&0ss=N3c179943&sld=2&v=28
Of course it can be... Look at India. Sure, the government collapses once in a while, but I think India's a lot harder to run: $2.2k GNP per cap, vs China's $3.6k GNP, massive ethnic strife in India and interests from so many different states, etc.
My point is that India is a pretty radical experiment in democracy... just consider the expense of running elections in a place that has a $2200 per capita GNP.
..anymore than "Dog bites man - while he's at his computer"
There is no way Slashdot would have posted this article if the fire had occurred in any other form of business in china. And trying to pass this off as a human rights/totalitarian government issue is bullshit too.
this is something to get upset about
This is a government going nuts
But this story, is standard practice worldwide. Illegal operations lead to loss of life, crack-down ensues. How much more commonplace can it be?
Antiquis temporibus, nati tibi similes in rupibus ventosissimis exponebantur ad necem.
the american way or the highway folks....aint that right???
When I first saw the AP story, and later on the network news (Headline, ABC World News Now, MSNBC) I thought about posting this but I figured nahh!
One source, I believe Headline News, said the bars were in fact put on the windows by the government, although they didn't give a level of government.
They first reported that the fire started at 2:30 AM and some government officials (city level) had claimed it went out in 15 minutes; although another source said 45 minutes.
They claimed that the cafe was only open because they are close to the college but they vaguely implied that it was only open because the city watched them or something - didn't make sense.
So from the first reports it sounded like the city let them use the internet, the fire sounds like it was actually started by someone who works for the chinese government. Then they show up, put the fire out but it burns somewhere between 10 and 60 minutes killing, what, 24 people?
The people who did the saving was the other citizens; they showed pictures of mainly citizens pulling people out of the windows.
Then again I'm crazy - sounds like things that happen.
Get your Unix fortune now!
It's very clear that the illegal net cafes are shut down because they're a hazzard to the patrons. Slashdotters are linking it to internet freedom because of the rampant anti communist feelings around.
As for the anonymity of surfing in an internet cafe as opposed to home, there isn't any, since the government could just required all net cafe to keep a log of their patrons. China have universal ID cards so that won't be hard.
Just think about what would happen if this was in the US. Kids die in illegal net cafe/pub/dance party warehouse because there aren't any fire exits. Wouldn't you think the parents will all be in an outrage to close all these unsafe places down?
well, lets suppose a fire broke in a netcafe in the US or some other EU country . DO you really think that the authorities would respond to it by shutting down alla the net-cafes?
If you want to make a fair comparison, you have to keep in mind that many of these net-cafes were underground, illegal operations. A better question to ask would be, lets suppose that a fire broke out in a crack house in the US. Would the authorities respond to it by blaming their own War on (some) Drugs, for turning a disease into a crime in the first place? Would they review the policy that created this illegal underground? Or would they use it as an excuse to step up their efforts?
Criticize the Chinese government all you want - it certainly has its problems. But, let's drop the holier-than-thou attitude, please. Our own government is just as filled with opportunists who would jump at a situation such as this, and use it as an excuse to push their own agendas. For a real-life example, one needs look no further than the FBI since 9/11, and their efforts to extend their power in the guise of "defending against terrorists."
Lost: Sig, white with black letters. No collar. Reward if found!
I don't think there is such a thing. I'm just finishing up a year studying in China, and my building had a grand total of 1 set of double doors unlocked during my 8-12 classes for a building with at least 500 students in it. There is a 20 minute window between 9:50 and 10:10 where another set of double doors is unlocked, so that students can leave faster after class.
Is see so many people react to this as if this has something to do with human rights. Claiming that the chinese government is probably trying to close down all the illegal internet cafe's to prevent uncensored surfing.
HELLO! REALITY CHECK!!! If they can close down all those Internet cafe's now they probably allready know where they are and they did not bother them until now. They HAVE TO close down all the cafe's to check if they aren't possible deathtraps as this one was. The city's mayor is held responsible for things like this. Too many people died just because the place was vitually locked on all doors and windows making it impossible to flee the place. It wasn't the government that locked these doors, it was the owner of the place who is responsible for all this.
Furthermore, why cry for this to be a HUMAN RIGHTS issue? In the states things are far more worse than you can imagine. Not only government trying to govern the Internet (think about the webfilters in library's and at schools or even about Carnivore) but also companies try to do this. Think about MSN and AOL.
Of course there are human rights issues in China. No doubt about that, but this is common sense. If you were a mayor of a substantial city what would you do if this happened in your city under your RESPONSIBILITY as you are obliged to safeguard your citizens. My guess is that you would close down as many of these places as you can to prevent a recurrence of the tragedy only to open up those which DO follow fire hazard regulations.
You are right, I have the same problem. I'm in Beijing. BBC is blocked too.
The CCP will not say 'Pretty Please". Like all things that threaten their total control of the Chinese, this order will be enforced with police against the owners and users if they can be caught. Forced labor camps and re-education is perhaps the least that will happen. The press and liberal apoligists like to use the term, "Post-communist" in regards to China. BS! China is not post-anything communist. The people are still under iron fisted control at the drop of a hat, or a hint of freedoms. Boycott the 2008 Olympics.
In greece, to run a net cafe, as well as have conform to strict regulations (or send certain "incentives" like 300 euros to the mayor), and pay 75 euros a year per computer. Something to do with online gambling laws.
If the safety of the cafes in a Western country would be as bad as in Beijing then yes, I wouldn't surprise if the authorities would close down all the cafes after one such disaster. They would call for all out safety inspection and allow opening them only after the cafes meet the safety standards. Should that be any different in China? Remember that most of the cafes there are illegal, so you can be sure that the safety in them is poor. Surely the authorities want to tighten the control, but isn't some control better than no control at all? I believe that the mayor is genuinely wanting to prevent this kind of disasters in the future.
How many permits do you need in the USA to open an Internet cafe? What happens if you open one without necessary paperwork?
In disaster is opportunity. Sept 11 afforded opportunity to wipe out the Taliban, something that was desired by US Administration and business interestes prior to Sept 11. This fire affords opporutity for repression of internet cafes, something Chinese authorities don't like. Suicide bombing this morning in Israel gives Sharon excuse to deny Palistinian state, something he's clearly opposed to anyway. Nothing like a good disaster or attrocity to enable seizure of the moral high ground to facilitate pre-existing initiatives.
DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT! Evil, tyrannical governments like China exist only because of the consent, or the cowardice, of the people.
Ubfortunately, more people than most of us would like to think WANT such governments. Ergo, the inevitable slide of the USA, as accelerated by the "Drug War" and now the Patriot Act, towards a socialist dictatorship.
It would not suprprise me that the fire was some sort of covert act. The ChiCom government has been wanting to shut down ALL unrestricted net access, and being able to do so in the guise of "safety" will allow them to fool enough of the people.
Simply put, China is the enemy #1 of ALL who desire free flow of ideas and information.
=== The price of freedom is eternal vigilance
Going back to some of the posts regarding Free Speach, or lack there of. Has anyone ever seen any of the shows they have over in china? I have, I pray that if I ever move their I can't afford cable tv. I can't see a logical reason why they would have profanity and nudity in cartoons, but not allow access to the internet. Just my .02
"On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero."
Gotta ask it... everyone's thniking it:
"From the inside?"
My guess? Yes.
It says that many of these are illegal; I think that this has to be municipal law. I'm pretty sure that the state run telecommunications are probably aware of where they are dropping their high speed lines. If the state didn't condone them, they could just turn them off.
Most likely, the "illegality" is a municipal use tax issue; though, if you're the BBC, it's probably a lot more of a news story if you imply that the government is locking dissidents in buildings and torching them.
-- Terry
The fire didn't kill the author of Klez by any chance, did it?
Aren't jokes supposed to be funny?
It depends on where in China, but I expect you're correct for Beijing.
The bigger issue here is who can afford to have their own computer at home. Most students, certainly, can not. That's why Internet cafes such as this one (in the University district) are so popular.
I agree with the gist of your message, though. This isn't about trying to prevent Internet access.
It is tempting, if the only tool you have is a hammer, to treat everything as if it were a nail. - Abraham Maslow
Just think about what would happen if this was in the US. Kids die in illegal net cafe/pub/dance party warehouse because there aren't any fire exits. Wouldn't you think the parents will all be in an outrage to close all these unsafe places down?
It happened in 1942, but rather than close down all the bars, it was the start of the enforcement of modern fire codes.
Mod Karma -1: I sed bad wurds. If I cep my mouf shut, I wud be at riyses.
Have you tried using anonymous http proxies? They work wonders in covering your trail [when commiting crimes].
These internet parlors are rooms with lots of people and computers. Imagine a hole-in-the-wall pub with cheap drinks operating without a license. We called those bars "drink and pray's" because you drank cheap beer and prayed the building didn't catch fire. These internet parlors are the same type of thing. Being illegal meant they keep semi-hidden which generally means a lack of safety features.
The fact they could be closed down so quickly means they operated with the government turning a blind eye. I'm sure officials were NOT receiving bribes to ignore them. That never happens.
If you aren't part of the solution, there is good money to be made prolonging the problem
You do know that you could configure SSH to forward port 8080 on your local machine to port 80 on the remote Unix box?
You do know that you could configure Squid or Apache on the Unix box to act as a proxy?
You do know you could then use whatever browser you want on the local machine, proxying through the remote?
www.eFax.com are spammers
The government was just waiting for something for this to happen, or even staged it themselves. Now they have an excuse to close down all netcafés.
The people died because the doors were shut.
They were shut because the cafe was illegal.
I was illegal because the chinese regime suppresses free flow of information and make it near impossible to open legal internet cafes.
The people died because the regime is afraid of the internet.
The rest of the cafes are shut because the regime is afraid of the internet.
If cafes were easy to open legally, they could leave the doors open, and peope would not burn.
Think these twice:
1. An illegal (without any paperwork) netcafe (or whatever shop) will be shutdown by authority around the world, wherever it is.
2. Who tell you that China is blocking Chinese's access to general information? From some unofficial gossip like this OR official report from your government (I know you don't trust the report from Chinese government at all)? GIVE ME that proof!
3. Tell me, can you find a government (let's say, U.S. government) that will allow your access to an anti-government (let's say, terrorism against U.S.) website? As far as I know, U.S. goverment has even more tools (including the famous Carnivore to censor the email content).
4. Next time, bear this in your mind: news is news, DO NOT add political color on it. Too much color will distract you from the naked truth --- that is, there was some tragedy happening in China, the government is fighting against to avoid it happens again.
5. My suggestion to you: only your own experience in an illegal netcafe in China can erase all the nonsense from your mind.
Think these twice before open your mouth and relate this tragedy to anything else than sorrow.
1. An illegal (without any paperwork) netcafe (or whatever shop) will be shutdown by authority around the world, wherever it is. (Don't tell me your country will allow illegal shops or cafes, if you are in this earth)
2. Who tell you that China is blocking Chinese's access to GENERAL information? From some unofficial gossip like this OR official report from your government (I know you don't trust the report from Chinese government at all)? GIVE ME that proof!
3. Tell me, can you find a government (let's say, U.S. government) that will allow your access to an anti-government (let's say, terrorism against U.S.) website? As far as I know, U.S. goverment has even more tools (including the famous Carnivore to censor the email content).
4. Next time, bear this in your mind: news is news, DO NOT add political color on it. Too much color will distract you from the naked truth --- that is, there was some tragedy happening in China, the government is fighting against to avoid it happens again.
5. My suggestion to you: only your own experience in an illegal netcafe in China can erase all the nonsense from your mind.
It's killing many birds with one stone. Some reasonable, some not necessarily so. 200 to service the needs formerly filled by 2,400 is extreme. Other measures could have been taken, but this seems usually draconian. Rather than address the conditions before the fire, they use it as the club to subdue the people, yet again.
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
And yet China gets permanent MFN status. This in spite of squelching freedom at every turn. This in spite of Tienamen Square. This in spite of arresting so-called Bible smugglers. This in spite of arresting those who would flee its borders to other nations. Oh yeah.. and then they are further rewarded by hosting the olympics and being a partner in the WTO.
Next time you buy something that says "Made in China" realize that it very well could've been made by prison slave labor and the prisoner could be someone who merely wanted freedom but was crushed by an opressive regime no better than the USSR. Why governments want to interact with these abusive bastards and why governments are trying to elevate their status in the world is beyond me.
The cafes are often dimly lit, hidden from view and with heavy doors to deter the authorities - but which can turn them into a death trap in case of fire.
24 people died, 17 were injured, that does call for some looking into. What kind of wiring do these places have, I could be wrong, but I'm picturing half rotten power cords criss crossing all over the floor. Very little fire prevention or extenguishing tools. And locked doors and windows with iron bars on them. I think that yes, they should be looked at.
Xaotik Designs
I lived in China for a while. Almost no one obeys the fire code. It wasnt so bad when most buildings were one or two stories, but now lots are built up multi-story and sky-scrapers. Its really scary and you must be alert there. So there must be an additional angle for singling net cafes out. I think it is more that they are an in-your-face profitable illegal business (like half of small urban businesses) rather than free speech. Also many of the victims were young students, and parents (in every country) get more upset when childeren are involved, partiucalry only-sons in China.
The students are killed as all possible exits were either blocked or locked up.
... these sorts of things are documented to have happened historically in the United States as well)
The building has only one entrance/exit, and it was locked at the time of fire, and the windows were barred with steel. As a matter of fact the owner didn't get proper license to open an Internet cafe and the door was always locked to avoid inspection.
Two points you should consider in all this (please note that this isn't intended as a slight against China
1) Making a service illegal often leads to safety issues like this. Speakeasies during prohibition in the United States, unsanitary abortion clinics in the United States prior to Roe v. Wade, etc. The answere isn't to shut down all internet cafes, as if the demand is strong enough they will reopen regardless, perhaps even more secretively, and likely be just as unsafe as before.
2) Have you considered the possiblity that the fire was deliberately set by agent provocatuers, in order to manufacture an excuse for a widespread crackdown? What better way to turn a very unpopular move into an acceptable one "we have your safety at heart, that's why we must take away your access to information that we don't want you to see"? Again, this sort of thing (though generally without the loss of life) has happened in western society more than once.
Of course, I'd expect people in Beijing has tough time accessing Internet in the future, as the conservative people would sneak chance to impose more restrictions.
Creating conditions where such an action becomes popular is a time-honored method by doing exactly this: sneaking it "through the front door" so to speak, in plain view, because the frightened masses have suddenly started demanding exactly what before they would have fought tooth and nail to avoid. Whether it is exploiting happy circumstance, or manufacturing such circumstance, nearly every government engages in this despicable behavior, including my own right now in response to 9/11 (USA).
The Future of Human Evolution: Autonomy
They might be able to afford dialup...
but most can't afford a COMPUTER!
Read the damn CNN link, for god's sake,
Oooh, ouch. What a hilarious put down. no wonder you are seen by your peers as such a wit and ferocious debater.
Perhaps you should also read the comment that I was replying to before accusing others of being retarded.
they probably started the fire and shot the people specifically to give them the "excuse" to regulate which shops are allowed to be open. Thightly under the government's control of course.
My $0.02 will always be worth more than your â0.02, so
YHBT. YHL. HAND. Jesus dude... Is there Folgers in your cup?
Check out the wonderful regulations that you have to abide by to be a licensed internet cafe in China.
= 51 4&ncid=514&e=3&u=/ap/20020617/ap_on_re_as/china_in ternet_crackdown_1
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid
quote..
In late 2000, China issued its first set of guidelines that required providers to track online chatrooms and bulletin boards and keep records of users' viewing times, addresses and telephone numbers.
Since January, Internet bars have been required to report attempts to open Web sites deemed subversive by the government, including those run by foreign media and the Falun Gong. Those that fail to install special software to track which sites users visit have been shut down.
The government is also eliciting the help of the masses in its cyber battle. In Shanghai, the police Internet office takes tips by e-mail on people who distribute banned information from the Web.
And the state-run Beijing Morning Post newspaper has set up a hot line for readers to report illegal Internet cafes, deemed "hei wangba" or "black cyber cafes."
---Quote
the Chinese government has passed a law prohibiting the overclocking of AMD Athlon processors.
Were there non-chinese citizens that died? Or is it that Beijing has a lot of U.S. citizens conducting business and touring? When did China ever care about copyright or even the death of their own?
And I really believe it was a Troll too.
Your post failed to include important relevent info:
eg: the burned cafe had locked doors, was extremely crowded, had no fire escapes, and entry/exit had to be done by individuals asking verbal permission on case-by-case basis. These conditions apparently are rampant thruought the system of over 2000 such cafe's who, being illegal, are not inspected by any safety authorities.
I think the govt acted responsibly: there is no evidence of net activities being a problem, and the pathway to resurrection of the cafe's in a safe way was described.
you do a disservice by leaving out data that can have a signif. impact on how one interprets the article.
*claps with standing ovation* guess it goes to show that capital punishment isnt dead after all....mmm bars on windows, fire exits you cant exit, wasted lives inside the building...i say keep the cafes illegal or not, it keeps the ones that refuse to have a real life off the streets.
-Alicia
It is shocking to see people who know so little about China to politicize their ignorance on public boards.
In China it is actually easier to get online as you don't need to sign up for an ISP. All you need is telephone connection. There are numbers which you could dial up at home and the ISPs would charge (most of them around 4 RMB or $.50 per hour, you can get phone cards at a rate far less) to directly your phone bill. Most people go to Netcafe (at the cost of 3-6 RMB per hour)so they can play Counter-Strike or other LAN games.
I would say that at least 50% of the people who goes to NetCafe nowadays have their own computer at home.
Needless to say Censorship IS a problem in China, and they do censor sites such as NYTimes, LATimes, etc. (They don't censor Yahoo news/Reuters news however). However, the closing down of Internet Cafes does not have any relevence to the censorship which is already in place.
From the Seattle Post-Intelligencer (AP-Asia):
Beijing Orders Internet Cafes Closed
Monday, June 17, 2002
Last updated at 2:06:53 AM PT
By AUDRA ANG
ASSOCIATED PRESS WRITER
BEIJING -- Beijing has ordered its 2,400 Internet cafes to close for safety inspections after a fire that killed 24 people in the Chinese capital's university district, state media said Monday.
The owner of the cafe where the fatal fire broke out before dawn Sunday has surrendered to police, said a woman who answered the phone at the district administration office. She wouldn't give her name or any details, and police weren't immediately available to confirm the report.
Mayor Liu Qi ordered Internet cafes in Beijing to close while the city draws up new regulations, the official Xinhua News Agency reported.
Cafes that can't meet safety and other standards will be shut down and their property confiscated, Liu was quoted as saying.
Those that meet the standards will have to reapply for licenses, although the mayor added that he did not want to encourage an increase in the number of cyber cafes, which are immensely popular in this city of 12 million.
Xinhua said just 200 of Beijing's 2,400 Internet cafes are properly licensed. Many are typically smoky and crowded, located in converted residential buildings or other spaces not necessarily equipped to handle large numbers of customers.
The fire at the 24-hour Lanjisu Cyber Cafe in the lively Haidian university district broke out early Sunday, when most of the customers were students taking advantage of lower Internet access rates.
Neighbors said they were awakened by screams for help.
A survivor, who was identified only by the surname Li, told the state-run newspaper Beijing Times that there were about 30 customers at the cafe, which could seat 100.
"It was around 3 a.m. when I smelled GASOLINE and saw thick smoke coming up from the bottom of the stairs," said Li, who went to the cafe with about 10 other students from Beijing Technology University.
"I told a cafe employee who went downstairs to check. He yelled that there was a fire and we all tried to escape," Li said.
Li said the fire had blocked the stairs and people began yelling for help through the windows, which were covered by iron grills. Neighbors managed to unscrew one grill and Li said he escaped with about seven other people.
...
[Insert pithy quote here]
If they're illegal the authorities don't know about them in the first place, right?
So they'll shut down the _legal_ ones first, right?
And then they'll hunt down the illegal ones, which they might or might NOT find.
And so the underground Shanghai internet movement was born. Waiting for the revolution.
Well, we know some moderator was a Chinese butt-whore don't we? The chinese goverment is a fucking joke and every other civilization in the world knows if.
Fucking communist probably modded that post down just to protect "the state".
Fuck you and your state.
As someone who recently travelled through China (Beijing, Shanghai, Xian, Guangzhou, Shenzhen, and Hong Kong) in the past month, I can give you a first hand experience of what it is like to "obtain" internet access in China.
First off, it's not as "restrictive" as most people tend to think. As a US citizen who has never been to China before, I wasn't sure what to expect. When I first arrived in Beijing I was throughly surprised by the infrastructure that was already in place as well as the plans for future build up. (Chinese WTO Accession == Competition) + (Year 2008 Beijing Olympics == World Spotlight)
As long as you are surfing the net w/o any malicious anti-Chinese government intent, I don't think you have much to fear. In fact, the Chinese government makes internet access readily available to most of its citizens via government dial-up modem pools. A few of the numbers I remember, are 163, 169 and I think 2369 or something like that. These numbers have uname/password the same as the number itself and automatically bill the line you dial from. In terms of price, it's cheap for westerners. About 2 cents US per minute (don't quote me on that). I think that's pretty sweet. Anyway, if you don't feel safe using these government lines, there are "internet cards" you can buy. Basically you'll pay between 5 and 10 dollars US to get a username/password and a dial-up number for the area you are in. You purchase these on the street or directly from authorized vendors. These work off the same principle as the government dial-up lines, except that they are private and a little more expensive.
As far as speed goes, QoS in China blows. That may be the main advantage that internet Cafe's have over the widely available public internet. You cannot play games on the government internet connection because it's just too slow. I don't rememer any ping times but I do know that I couldn't get a decent connection to play Starcraft on Battle.Net (they have an Asia server).
Anyway, there are other ways to connect to the internet such as through your GPRS enabled phone. China Mobile as well as China Unicom provide the necessary conduit if you are on their subscription plan.
As for pr0n and the rest of the goodies. The connections on the internet are too slow for P2P applications to draw a critical mass in China. Instead, Chinese citizens have adapted by providing illegal copies of anything and everything you want. You just have to know where to look. In Beijing, my local friend took me around and within 1 minute of me asking him where he gets his stuff from, we were following a man back to his "house/shack" where we were able to browse through suitcases of CDs. Of course, I wouldn't try this by myself becuase my kidneys would be sold on the black market and I wouldn't be writing this now. But whatever, you get the point.
Everything in China revolves around MONEY. If you want to experience capitalism first hand, visit China. Of course there are people just mooching off the government hand-outs, but many people take it into their own hands to build their fortune. It's almost too hard to explain how Capitalist China is, but to put it in perspective, Capitalist China makes US policy look like a socialist/communist structure! It's not the Chinese government that drives this Capitalism, but rather the yearning of the Chinese people to "catch-up" to western ways and to obtain our luxurious standard of living.
If you are brave enough and know someone that speaks Cantonese well, you may try to venture into what I call the "ass" of China, Shenzhen. This city lies on the southern border of the Chinese mainland right above Hong Kong. It's where Western ideas and Chinese dreams clash. It's the drug center of China. It's the new manufacturing hub for Hong Kong businesses. It's a global hub for goods transfer. Dire misinterpretation of the West draws the younger generation to think it's alright to do drugs and have sex with multiple partners each week.
Many of us Westernized people look at the situation in developing countries and just scoff at how terrible the situation is. Oh sure, it's easy to blame everything on the foreign government but really it's our responsibility to help these underdeveloped countries build up their infrastructure and economies in ways that don't hurt its citizens.
Well, I better stop now before I get moderated down to "0 - OFFTOPIC". But just keep what I said in mind when you discuss China and the internet.
Cunama!
ATHO +++ NO CARRIER
OK_
CUNAMA!
Something like this couldn't happen in, say, a bar full of drunks or perhaps a grocery store full of kid-toting mothers? What about a baseball stadium full of sun burnt, half lit aficionados? Hell what about a cubicle farm full of irate programmers? I think this fire could happen anywhere. Their communist government is just looking for reasons to police information. I foresee a violent uprising in China against the government in the next 10 years or so.
Maybe the chinese will finally rise up against the harsh systematic authoritarianism which prevents them from thinking freely.
Or maybe they'll just put all their energy into making more tasty Noodle Bowl for me. Either way I'm happy.
.
That part of your solution apparently isn't effective because it is already required. It's just that many cafes (unlicensed) don't do so because their customers don't want to be tracked.
Nobody in China really cares about fire safety. Have a look around there and you'll see what I mean. Discos and nightclubs are really death traps. No doubt the internet cafes are too. The problem is compounded by the fact that Chinese cooking is a serious fire hazard in itself. Fires are unbelievably common in Chinese cities. You see them all the time.
Sunday and Monday I submited two stories about the fire and the shutdown of all the internet cafes in Beijing. I wonder who reviewed these posts, and why they were rejected...
Really? That's weird... I was able to access CNN from a hotel's Business Center in Hang-Zhou (about 2 hours from Shanghai) back in December. I was just going to read my email, but decided to try CNN just for hahas. It loaded up without a hitch.
can i just reinforce the idea presented here...
internet access in China is actually relatively CHEAP compared to the world.
80 Yuan will get you either ADSL or FTTX+Lan (basically cable) or even VDSL (depending on what's at your local exchange) and yes, this is in a medium sized city, Hangzhou.
if you pull out your calculators, ADSL for 80 yuan is roughly 10 dollars US.. yes.. TEN dollars for a whole month of ADSL without any download limits or time restrictions...
of course, the living standards of people in China and the US differs but relatively, internet access is actually very very cheap. and dial-up? you don't even need an account. just dial 163 and the internet bill comes straight through to your phone bill. neato. yes, there is only 1 ISP.. but if you want better deals, go broadband!!
anyway, all them talk about net cafes having no restriction are not quite true...
from what i know, all internet is basically filtered in China. it depends on the local servers etc etc which connects them to the internet backbone and all.. but they are all filtered to some extent. cnn.com was blocked and so was time.com in Hangzhou and Shanghai on ADSL.
but anyway, the point is that contrary to popular belief, net access in China is relatively cheap.
Heh, this is nothing new. Remember that fire in a Chinese disco hall back in 1999? 50+ poeple were killed there, because all except 1 door was locked. Ive been to other disco halls and places of social gatherings in China, and they just don't follow proper fire safety codes. On a cultural note, the Chinese are pretty damn protective of their property and profits, so they lock all doors except one to keep out those who do not pay an admission fee to get in, as in the case of internet cafes and disco halls, which is the reason they lock most doors except for the entrance. They have yet to learn.
If you are in China and are working to circumvent their filtering of the Internet, even if is for your own "Western" eyes, could still be illegal. Personally I am scared shitless of the Chinese government, I worked out there for a few months when I was with EDS, and damn dude, it is another world.
One can reasonably ask why the cafes were all illegal. Surely not all 2200 of them were death traps.
70 years ago, the United States tried clamping down on booze and speakeasys were the market's response to an absurd prohibition. Looks like China is going to have to learn the same lesson - clamp down on something people want and they'll find another way to get it, sometimes with disastrous results.
Speaking of 70 years ago, that's about the same time as the Reichstag Fire. Seems the Nazis wanted something to hang a cause on and so they set fire to the German Reichstag and blamed the Communists. I mention the Reichstag connection because of this odd quote from The Guardian
Odd thing that - smelling gasoline in an Internet Cafe.
I'm really not surprised to be reading about this and wouldn't put it past those Chinese to do it. Anyhow, I'm an American businessman in the import-export business, so as you might guess, my frequent travels take me to many places around the world, on every continent.
I wanted to share my experience in the "great" country of China.
So, I was in Shenzhen China last December for about a week on business. A bit of background: Shenzhen, like Hong Kong and a few other places, is a "Special Economic Zone" that the Chinese government set up to try and give foreigners the illusion that China really ISN'T a drab, decaying fascist state that's economically languishing behind the rest of the world. Here, rules are relaxed and capitalism is encouraged, not surppressed. Well, let me tell you this, if this is China's best, then I'd hate to see the worst.
Anyways, when I stepped off the train from Hong Kong (which was no paradise itself, as that place has gone down the shitter since the Brits left) I was shocked. The whole place smelled like a combination of vomit and dog shit that had been left out in the sun for a day or so. And it was probably BECAUSE there was vomit and dog shit all over. I almost retched, and I've certainly been in some sketchy places in my travels but NOTHING like this.
People spit everywhere. Trash litters the streets. I found myself looking DOWNWARD much more than looking FORWARD when I walked.
Noise pollution is endemic. It doesn't help that their infernal language consists of abrupt rapid fire tones that is a cacophony for any human ear to bear. How do they speak and listen to that shit without going crazy all day long is beyond me.
Anyways, Chinamen stink -- literally. There is no concept of personal hygiene whatsoever. Meetings with even top officials were hourlong sessions of having to endure hot sweaty bodies and rancid breath eminating from mouths missing a few teeth. Geez, at least use deodorant for crying out loud.
The hypocrisy, corruption, and double-standards from the highest levels of government on over are the norm at the same time China opens up to the world. Foreigners get charged as much as five times for transportation, lodging, food, and everything else.
Traffic is horrible. Rules are non-existent except for at traffic lights: red means to go fast, green means to go REALLY REALLY fast.
The Chinese people themselve are pretty apathetic and everyone just wants to get out of that hell hole, so you see smuggling rings shipping people out hidden in truck beds and ships, all too often with tragic results.
The whole country, in my assessment is a lost case. Even the cheap labor can be found in Southeast Asia or Mexico. Same goes for pirated stuff -- SE Asia and Eastern Europe will keep on churning them out.
Anyways, the one redeeming quality were the girls. I paid 100 yuan (about $12 US) for a great fuck, with a 16 year old who seemed quite new and "unblemished" if you get my drift. Boy, was she tight, made all the right noises, sucked and fucked all night long and let me cum all over her. Much better than even the vaunted Thai whores, and worlds apart from anything in Las Vegas or in Europe. Best bargain I have EVER found in my life!
So yeah, screw the hell hole that's China. It's a lost cause of a country suspsended by a hollow facade of so-called new capitalism that's just show more than anything.
There's 10 types of people in this world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
maybe even less, so its no wonder the Chinese Government is shutting the whole lot down until the Cafe's pass some rudimentary fire instection.
Sorry for the libertarians out there but this is China reacting to a previously unregulated situation where people DIED.Sorry but this is a country which eats what we in the West consider to be pets. Think about that first.
The Chinese have a world-wide long tradition of disregarding safety codes, sanitary codes and would serve "long porc" if they though they could get away with it.
MSBPodcast.com The opinions expressed here are my own. If you don't like 'em... Think up your own stuff.
Most Beijingers cannot afford a computer. The upper class can, but the large middle and lower class cannot. So they can't have internet access at home even though the monthy fee for it is quite reasonable.
Do your friends live in foreigner housing? Housing which is set aside for for westerners typically has alot more free access to internet and TV than domestic housing. In western hotels you can get CNN and unfiltered Internet, but not in private residences or public Chinese housing.
When I was there getting Slashdot was no problem at all, but CNN was always blocked.
blah blah blah .........
And where are the /. editors to moderate down this troll?
My volume of spam dropped precipitously today.
Call (206) 338-5780 COLLECT for information about a genuine BA, BS, MA, MS, MBA, or Ph.D.
> In China you can pay 80 Yuan ($10) monthly fee to have a dial-up account, which is affordable for most Chinese. A majority of the netizen in China can surf on Internet right from their home.
80 RMB per month? I do not know where you are or how you got it but in all Chinese cities the dial-up account is for free and you just pay per minute. (for phone and for inet access). For 80 Yuan per month I can actually get a VDSL connection to my home which beats most western countries.
Wednesday, June 19, 2002
Cyber-cafe crackdown extended
Beijing and other major cities order safety checks on all entertainment venues after killer fire
STAFF REPORTER in Beijing and CLARA LI in Shenzhen
A crackdown on Beijing's Internet cafes is being extended to all public entertainment venues in the city following Sunday's cyber-cafe blaze which killed 24 people, official media reported.
The order for safety inspection checks on all public entertainment venues was made by Beijing Communist Party secretary Jia Qinglin on Monday, the Beijing Morning Post reported yesterday. Other major cities have followed suit.
Most of the 24 killed and 13 injured in the fire at the Lanjisu Internet Cafe early on Sunday were students from a nearby university. Firemen discovered the cafe's only door was locked and all windows were barred.
In a meeting with city officials, Mr Jia said central Government leaders were "very concerned" about the fire and demanded immediate action to find out what caused the tragedy and assist victims and their families.
"We must take resolute measures to eliminate all hidden safety hazards . . . and quickly rectify [our management] of cultural and entertainment facilities as well as public venues," Mr Jia said.
"All illegal Internet cafes, dance halls, bath houses, saunas and beauty salons must be closed. At the same time, safety inspections will be carried out in all lines of trade and industry.
"Leading cadres must take personal responsibility for safety . . . to ensure stability and protect life and property of the public."
MOD PARENT UP
I'm in Chengdu right now, in the south-western provence of Sichuan. (You've probably heard of the food.) There are internet cafes _everywhere_ around here, and the going rate is 2 Yuan/hour, which is about one US quarter (dollar) and hour. These places are always packed, generally about 40-50 computers all full. Mostly people seem to play games, though some people are into chat rooms. I can't get to certain sites unless I do fancy tricks with proxies (BBC is one which doesn't come through) but everything seems to be here. I don't know what's tracked, but in practice I don't notice any day to day difference in using the internet.
Cept I'm on the road, and not on the T1.
I think perhaps this is blown out of proportion, and the opinion here is that it really is a safety reason more than anything else. I can understand the propoganda angle with saying that, but still, I'm all for forcing proper ventilation and safety exits.
The People's Daily is reporting today (June 19 in China) that the fire was arson, started by two teen-age boys, one 13 and the other 14, who'd gotten into an argument with the staff of the Internet place a couple of weeks before and started the fire in revenge. There was evidence the fire had been started with gasoline and the boys were seen purchasing 1.8 litres of gas at a nearby service station before the fire.
0 61 9/756688.html
They were arrested Tuesday afternoon and, according to People's Daily, "confessed everything."
http://www.peopledaily.com.cn/GB/shehui/47/2002
This story offers some more details. Apparently, the fire was started by two teens after they were refused access to the cafe in question. One boy, 13, faces time in a correctional facility, while the other, 14, might be tried as an adult.
From the article: "The 14-year-old could be tried for murder and arson, [a lawyer] said.
'But considering his age, the sentence may be more lenient than with adults. It's unlikely he will get the death penalty.'"
...oh wait, this is China. Of course there's censoring and broken stuff. Silly me.
[insert witty comment here]