Just How Much Privacy Do We Have?

stuffman64 writes: "Popular Science is running an excellent article on just how private our daily lives are. The article chronicles a typical day of a make-believe Graphics Designer from Chicago. Throughout his day, he unwittingly supplies companies with information that can potentially be used against him. And with GPS-enabled cell phones just starting to hit the market, our privacy can only continue to deteriorate from here. A must read."

Comments

None

[MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM]

You have no privacy. Do the math.

Re:None

[gibler]

I calm the first post in the name of all troll-kind.

When they have webcams in the toliet bowl then I will worry about privacy .. oh wait this is the internet.

Re:None

[Mr. FullOfHate]

Wow. You know how to post:

<i> <b> </b> </i><BR>

Good for you. Good for you!!

Do you know how to drown yourself in a toilet? Why don't you give it a shot?

Where are our flying cars?

[blair1q]

I'm not believing a word Popular Science tells me.

--Blair

Re:Where are our flying cars?

[Jhon]

Right here.

-jhon

Re:Where are our flying cars?

[Rhinobird]

don't believe the other guy. They are right here

Re:Where are our flying cars?

[doubtless]

I have one more issue of Popular Science left in my subscription and I am not going to renew it.

Half the magazine are ads, and another quarter of them are half baked product reviews (for example, comparing iMac with top of the line Sony desktop) with appropriate information on where to buy them.

In the past year, only a handful of articles were worth reading, and this one is definately the best I have seen thus far.

Maybe I should just use the money to subscribe to /. wait.. I can still get it for free..

Re:Where are our flying cars?

[Animats]

Moller is full of it. He's been announcing his flying car as Real Soon Now since 1974. I have his 1974 brochure.

It's embarassing that he hasn't produced a flyable prototype. It's quite possible to build such a thing; the Avrocar did it in the 1950s. The thing was aerodynamically unstable. This was expected, and an active stabilization system was provided, but 1950s control technology wasn't up to the job of making an unstable aircraft flyable. Today, that's far less of a problem.

Re:Where are our flying cars?

[mheckaman]

Ah, that's the one where the iMac won!

--Matt

turd boast

[Sexual Asspussy]

that's not an excellent article. that's a shit stain on a shit rag (an online one at that).

Re:turd boast

[Anal Cocks]

that's not an excellent article. that's a shit stain on a shit rag (an online one at that).

But what a nice shit stain it is! Here, sing along: THE TROLL POLKA (GESCHLECHT MIT ZIEGEN) By Serial Troller Is das nicht ein early post? Ja! Das ist mein early post! Is das nicht ein Goatse ghost? Ja! Das ist mein Goatse ghost! Early post, Goatse ghost, Oh, du schöne, Oh, du schöne, Oh, du schöne, Slashdot sucks! Is das nicht at minus one? Ja! Das ist at minus one! Is dis nicht ein trolling fun? Ja! Das ist mein trolling fun! Minus one, trolling fun, Early post, Goatse ghost, Oh, du schöne, Oh, du schöne, Oh, du schöne, Slashdot sucks! Is das nicht ein big crapflood? Ja! Das ist mein big crapflood! Is das night ein Taco's pud? Ja! Das ist ein Taco's pud! Big crapflood, Taco's pud, Minus one, trolling fun, Early post, Goatse ghost, Oh, du schöne, Oh, du schöne, Oh, du schöne, Slashdot sucks! Is das nicht der CowBoiKneel? Ja! Das ist der CowBoiKneel! Is dis nicht his manchode meal? Ja! Das ist his manchode meal! CowBoiKneel, manchode meal, Big crapflood, Taco's pud, Minus one, trolling fun, Early post, Goatse ghost, Oh, du schöne, Oh, du schöne, Oh, du schöne, Slashdot sucks! Is das nicht ein WIPO Troll? Ja! Das ist der WIPO Troll! Is das nicht en Goatse hole? Ja! Das ist der Goatse hole! WIPO Troll, Goatse hole, CowBoiKneel, manchode meal, Big crapflood, Taco's pud, Minus one, trolling fun,Early post, Goatse ghost, Oh, du schöne, Oh, du schöne, Oh, du schöne, Slashdot sucks! Is das nicht Jon Katz' slave boys? Ja! Das ist Jon Katz' slave boys! Is das nicht Taco's sex toys? Ja! Das ist Taco's sex toys! Katz' slave boys, Rob's sex toys, WIPO Troll, Goatse hole, CowBoiKneel, manchode meal, Big crapflood, Taco's pud, Minus one, trolling fun, Early post, Goatse ghost, Oh, du schöne, Oh, du schöne, Oh, du schöne, Slashdot sucks! Is das nicht ein trolltalk thread? Ja! Das ist ein trolltalk thread! Is das nicht ein FUCKING DEAD? Ja! Das ist ein FUCKING DEAD! Trolltalk thread, FUCKING DEAD, Katz' slave boys, Rob's sex toys, WIPO Troll, Goatse hole, CowBoiKneel, manchode meal, Big crapflood, Taco's pud, Minus one, trolling fun, Early post, Goatse ghost, Oh, du schöne, Oh, du schöne, Oh, du schöne, Slashdot sucks!

____________________

© 2002 Serial Troller. Permission to reproduce this document is granted provided that you send all the bukkake porn you can find to serialtroller@hotmail.com.

None

[Anonymous Coward]

gps... so?

[RomikQ]

I don't think gps phones threaten anyone's provacy that much - i mean no one cries a river just because their adress is known to the IRS or whatever. Knowing you current location is not that far off from knowing your adress.

Really, if you think about how much the insurance compnies know about you, there is the real issue.

Re:gps... so?

[eyegor]

they're referring to GPS enabled CELL phones.

Of course, technology has been developed (for E-911 purposes) that will allow tracking of _UNMODIFIED_ cell phones with reasonably good accuracy. It's not even required to be in use (although it's a lot easier if it is), it just has to be turned on.

Re:gps... so?

[Kwikymart]

Knowing you current location is not that far off from knowing your adress.

Well, maybe for those of us who never leave the house.

Re:gps... so?

[Steve Franklin]

Why anybody would want to carry a telephone around with them is still beyond me. The ones in the supermarket are the most baffling. Presumably the guy can't buy a carton of orange juice without asking the little deary what brand to buy. Have these people all lost their minds?

Re:gps... so?

[plague3106]

Knowing you current location is not that far off from knowing your adress.

Except that knowing your address wont' tell anyone that you go to a strip club every night.

Cash is King!

[OhYeah!]

That's right, baby. Visit your ATM infrequently, withdraw a lot of cash, pay for stuff with said cash. Privacy maintained.

Re:Cash is King!

[Anonymous Coward]

That's right, baby. Visit your ATM infrequently, withdraw a lot of cash, pay for stuff with said cash. Privacy maintained.

Cash is in danger of becoming less anonymous. I can't find the article I read--it might have been linked from one of the comments in this story, but I can't remember for sure where I saw it.

Anyhoo, it was about the anti-counterfeit measures existing in our currency and what's on the way. I read that some banks already scan and report serial numbers, and that new currency may even have barcodes and that retail outlets may scan currency as received to prevent them losing money to counterfeit bills.

For you paranoid people, what's to stop the ATM's from associating the bill numbers with you and then tracking your retail cash spending through your greenbacks' serial numbers?

I'd like to be anonymous, and I HATE the idea that corporations are profiling me, even if by computer algorithms. I HATE marketing directed to me. If I want to buy something, I'll go looking for it. But that's me. Many people (cow-orkers) I've spoken with *like* the laziness of interesting products being shoved in their faces.

But in today's society I don't think I can be anonymous, at least not without more effort than I'm willing to put forth.

BTW, I didn't read the article referenced in this Slashdot story. I was just responding to another post and then ranting.

Speaking of Slashdot, I suppose they are probably logging my IP address somewhere with this post, if only to stop post spamming. And I have a static IP. Anonymous Coward? Maybe not.

Re:Cash is King!

[billn]

For you paranoid people, what's to stop the ATM's from associating the bill numbers with you and then tracking your retail cash spending through your greenbacks' serial numbers?

Ever run a cash drawer? Unless you scan every bill that comes in and goes out, you'd have better luck tracking VD in a dance club.

Say I wander into a Cold Stone Creamery for a bowl of French Vanilla with blueberries. I pay with a 10. and get back a five and pitch the one in the tip jar because the girl behind the counter is cute. The guy in line behind me pays with a 20, and gets my 10 as part of his change.

Unless whatever bill I hand across the counter is scanned as I do it, and likewise, my change scanned as it comes back, how will [insert big brother of choice here] know I spent that 10 bucks on ice cream, and not next door at Fascinations, on a pack of condoms and some strawberry flavored lube?

Re:Cash is King!

[Anonymous Coward]

Ever run a cash drawer? Unless you scan every bill that comes in and goes out, you'd have better luck tracking VD in a dance club.

I haven't written many checks lately, but every time I do they set in in this little U machine and it quickly slips the cheque (spelled especially for you brits) through. The clerks are very fast at swiping my credit card, if they don't make me do it myself. I can imagine a machine that scans bills very quickly and the clerks could quickly learn to scan them efficiently.

Plus, I'm seeing more and more of these self-serve checkouts where you put your bills into a machine. These would be a no-brainer to be the first with improved anti-counterfeit measures.

I (the same AC who wrote the comment you replied to) am not very paranoid, and maybe I'm just trolling, but it's a curious thought.

I think it's funny imagining paranoid people having cash-swapping parties to launder towards anonymity.

The tip example is a good point, though. And other various random exchanges of bills: "Can I borrow $1?" "Here's your $1 back." (Okay, that one doesn't happen.)

Re:Cash is King!

[Anonymous Coward]

LOl!

Re:Cash is King!

[Anonymous Coward]

ATM machines are a way of making the flow of paper money something that you can monitor. To add insult to injury, banks charge you to withdraw cash from your machines. The better alternative is electronic money based on smart cards. Transactions don't require readers or ATMs, so only the buyer and the seller know the details of the transaction. But the government has a monopoly on the right to determine what is legal tender, and it also dislikes strong encryption, which is what you need for electronic money to work. Don't expect ATMs to go away any time soon.

Re:Cash is King!

[DutchSter]

And obviously such a task (scanning bills) would have to happen right in front of you, especially in situations where there is a large line. The article focuses on hidden/unknown types of tracking where the person might have an idea they are being tracked, but surely no idea of to what extent. I 'spose for the paranoid types that do the self-checkout at the supermarket where the bill is scanned to determine the denomination, that might be possible, but why? Sure the supermarket wants my stuff, sure the cops want my stuff, but to pull something of that scale off would require massive money from somewhere. The store has almost no marketing interest in what particular currency I use (ie, $20 number 5 or $20 number 13). That'd make it hard for the cops to come say "hey it's a win-win..just install these scanners..." Not to mention the least of the problems is that you'd have to install one at every single POS in the area to even begin to come close to the level of real-time tracking discussed.

And of course - the most suspicious of all transactions are illegal anyway and surely wouldn't use a scanner. Drug Dealer to client - "Hod on, lemme scan yo $20."

Re:Cash is King!

[rapid prototype]

And of course - the most suspicious of all transactions are illegal anyway and surely wouldn't use a scanner. Drug Dealer to client - "Hod on, lemme scan yo $20."

but what happens when there must be a record of all transactions of money? the USA Patriot Act II, or whatever it eventually is called.

John is carrying a $20 #BB774532A. Everyone knows he is carrying it, because he received it from an ATM this morning and it has not shows up on any transaction records. The next day, Larry, known dealer in Mary Jane, uses the $20 #BB774532A to buy a 12-pack of Corona at the corner Quick Stop. Moments later, a warrant is automatically printed out and faxed to the precinct closest to where John works. He is picked up on suspicion of Marijuana posession, searched, and lo and behold, there's the little Zip-Loc baggie of grass.

It will happen.

-rp

Re:Cash is King!

[Anonymous Coward]

Once---just like if they would ever ticket me for speeding due to EZPass, it would be the LAST time I'd ever use it-------because as soon as someone gets arrested thru cash-tracking, drug dealers quickly realize they need to change their business methods & do so.

Unfortunately..

[muon1183]

While this may not be the best article or the best source, it definitely addresses an issue that we have been pointing out here at /. for the past forever. At least they printed the article.

Re:Unfortunately..

[Mr. FullOfHate]

Yeah. Really. Why can't everyone else be as smart as us on slashdot. We even know how to come up with clever ways to spell "slashdot" and pat ourselves on the back for being such observant social commentators.

Dork.

3rd post domination

[foodb4nk]

The third post domination will take over /. world soon.

Privacy is a legitimate concern....but

[Em Emalb]

For Mark, he has other issues:

9:14 am: Instant messaging
Mark IMs his girlfriend: "Don't worry about last night. I'll get tested. Love you."

I'd say privacy should be the least of his concerns.

Re:Privacy is a legitimate concern....but

[kubrick]

Yeah, what the hell was that supposed to be about? Wild sex with someone picked up off the street? Shooting up with unclean needles? :/

Just How Much Privacy Do We Have?

[quantaman]

Simple

You have no privacy, get over it.

Re:Just How Much Privacy Do We Have?

[Anonymous Coward]

Remember when we everyone first realized that intelligence agencies were monitoring email traffic? Someone produced a great list of bad words that the agencies would probably grep for. The idea was everyone should add a few of these words to every email and crush the watchers with false hits (terrorist). I think this idea should be extended into every communication (iraq).

"Hi Mom - radiation"
"Hi Son, why did you say radiation?"
"No reason Mom. How's Dad? bomb"
"Fine son." sounding worried
"Great. I bought a new puppy (palestine) yesterday. He likes to hide in Bushes - a real terror-ier. Anyway I got to go - isotope. byee"

Bog them down under the weight (heroin) of their own privacy violations (communist).

Later cia kgb Dudes

Re:Just How Much Privacy Do We Have?

[Mr. FullOfHate]

Fuckin' A! Yeah! Rock! Stick it to the man! Fight the Power! The Revolution will not be televised!!!

Moron.

Re:Just How Much Privacy Do We Have?

[Anonymous Coward]

If the revolution isn't televised i'll probably miss it.

GPS Phone Question

[zook]

It is my understanding that the federal government is the one responsible for GPS (or other technology aimed at locating the unit) being added to phones, purportedly so better locate them in the case of a 911 call.

Is there any reason that a phone could not simply fire up the GPS unit when 911 were called? Do any of these GPS-enabled units do this?

Somehow this feature seems like it would be a major selling point to me.

Re:GPS Phone Question

[frovingslosh]

Is there any reason that a phone could not simply fire up the GPS unit when 911 were called?

The GPS will have to be already running, it takes time to lock on the satellites and get enough data to compute a fix; once it has that info it can track very accurately. The real question is will the sending of that data be limited to just 911 calls. Every indication is that it will not. While it would be very handy to be able to send the data when you want to and let another party receive it (perhaps a person you are trying to meet with or a website you want location specific information from), it seems more likely that the phone company will capture this data against your will and sell it, it would be valuable to a lot of people. It's even been suggest you might start getting targeted instant messaging advertisements when you get close to a store targeting you.

Re:GPS Phone Question

[DNS-and-BIND]

GPS doesn't work indoors!

Or for that matter, anywhere it doesn't have a clear view of the sky. Such as in your pocket.

Re:GPS Phone Question

[Anonymous Coward]

There was another article in the same issue that discussed this particular topic. Currently they (phone companies) are addressing this issue by activating the GPS locators during a 911 call.

True, GPS does take some time to triangulate your position, but the time it takes to complete a 911 call is probably enough time to overcome this deficiency. Also, if a location has not yet been determined, the operator could always have the caller stay on the line.

Although this technology has its benefits, PopSci did make the point that this is only at the discretion of the phone companies. Like the article mentions, it would be very annoying to receive advertisements for products or stores as you near them if the companies decided otherwise.

Re:GPS Phone Question

[baka_boy]

Your pocket actually isn't much of a problem, unless you're wearing pants made out of metal or concrete...it's the heavy (microwave-blocking) building materials in the city that really cause problems, along with (to a lesser extent) the water in your body.

Re:GPS Phone Question

[jukal]

> Is there any reason that a phone could not simply fire up the GPS unit when 911 were called? Do any of these GPS-enabled units do this?

No there is not :) And that's why there already are such "emergency phones". To market something else than the giant mobile phone vendors, here's a link to Benefon Esc's product details, including:

Emergency button: in case of emergency, up to five SOS messages with your location is sent, and a voice connection is opened to a predefined number

Re:GPS Phone Question

[TheAlmightyQ]

Even more important is that GPS doesn't work in cars either. Unless you've got a really big sunroof, or mount an external antenna like on my car.

So any attempt to get directions to some place while driving is going to be tough. Now not only will we have people holding cell phones to their ears while driving, but they'll be alternating holding them out the window as well.

Re:GPS Phone Question

[srslif16]

You don't need a GPS to pinpoint the location of your cell phone. The so-called timing advance used by GSM to deliver messages, like paging calls for cell updates, is in most urban areas enough to find you within 4 feet. Of course, you need more than one base station for this, but there are usually more than 3 within close enough range.

In older GSM systems, the triangulation had to be done manually, which is costly. Today, it can be done using a simple command. If you like to avoid this, move out of California now, because there is where Cingular West is now rolling out GSM 9.1.

Re:GPS Phone Question

[rnt]

The GSM network is able to calculate locations of individual phones quite nicely without GPS.

First of all, since it's a network divided in cells, it's always possible to tell in which cell an individual phone is. Sizes of cells differ, but I believe the maximum radius of a cell was something about 35km. In urban surroundings cells are usually considerably smaller.

That's not all...

If I recall correctly (I am really not an expert on this, but I'll try to write down some things I've read a while ago), GSM uses some sort of Time Division Multiple Access system.
This simply means multiple phones can transmit data on shared radio frequencies by waiting until it's their turn to transmit.
The timing of when to transmit becomes pretty important to prevent phones accidently jamming eachother. The distance of the mobile unit to the base station has to be taken into account because this distance can be translated into the a delay between the data being transmitted and the moment it arrives at the base station. To compensate for this, the phone calculates a "timing advance" delay.

I think the acuracy of this is about 500 meters.I am not sure if you can use this to triangulate a position in the system. If a mobile unit would scan channels on multiple base stations and calculates the Timing Advance for each of those (which it should do if it wants to use the channels for transmitting), then triangulation would be possible and by combining more data the accuracy would improve as well.

It's not GPS but good enough for most purposes and since it's a necessary part of the system, it's already usable and it's impossible to remove that "feature" from your phone...
With or without GPS-enabled GSM: if you don't want to located with your GSM phone TURN IT OFF (highly recommendable in theatres,cinemas, meetings, restaurants, etc, by the way).

Interesting question: would it be possible to write a Java applet to retrieve the TA's and do something useful with a list of base stations and those TA's?

Re:GPS Phone Question

[Yakko]

The manual for my Samsung A400 phone states that the GPS will be turned on when an "emergency call" is made, and turned off after it's complete.

In addition, I can turn the "Location" feature off, which disables the GPS when not in an emergency. The "Location" feature is enabled by default.

Re:GPS Phone Question

[Mr. Slippery]

GPS doesn't work indoors!

I don't think all these E911 phones would use GPS. IIRC some use some sort of triangulation or signal strength from different cell stations to figure out where you are.

GPS enabling, is, at the moment, a non-issue

[io333]

I have a Samsung A400 (SprintPCS). The GPS can be turned off as a menu function. Right now, it's no good for anything, except emergency 911 locating services, and even that currently works only in Rhode Island.

Personally, I wish the WOULD get the rest of the darn GPS thing working, so that next time I'm lost I can get directions!

Now when "they" decide that GPS will not be turn off-able, oh well, I guess I'll just turn the whole darn phone off. If I'm feeling *super paranoid* that day, I suppose I'll have to go to the trouble of removing the battery too. It's too d*mn intrusive anyway, even when it *doesn't* know where I am.

Re:GPS enabling, is, at the moment, a non-issue

[zook]

Good timing: you answered my question in the very next message. :)

Re:GPS enabling, is, at the moment, a non-issue

[Technician]

Get a handheld GPS with a map display. I can know where I am without letting everyone else know. If I need help, I can tell them where I am.
Many of the pocket size Etrex units have this feature. I have the Magellan Map 330 and love it. It has paid for itself in gas saved several times. It has gotten me out of traffic tie ups. Road blocked by an accident? just cut into a neighborhood, check map for current location and locate alternate route on the spot. It saves time and gas. This alone made mine better than free. No need to re-fold and store the map when done. ;-)

Re:GPS enabling, is, at the moment, a non-issue

[Anonymous Coward]

Dude, I got lost in Rhode Island yesterday. So much for maps.yahoo.com Personally, I wish you guys WOULD invest in a few street signs, and be consistent about naming streets and roads. Okay, so street numbering has only been around since the Eighteenth Century, but outside of New England it's really caught on.

By comparison gps is of limited use as a locational technology. The black helicoptors can use it to pinpoint you from above, but on the ground it ain't going to help you get from A to B any better than the sun.

Re:GPS enabling, is, at the moment, a non-issue

[io333]

That's pretty cool. Hmmm... wallet escaping pocket... must resist!!!!

Re:GPS enabling, is, at the moment, a non-issue

[prockcore]

"Now when "they" decide that GPS will not be turn off-able, oh well, I guess I'll just turn the whole darn phone off."

Well, considering that GPS requires line-of-sight to work.. just don't use your phone outside. If you're inside, GPS won't work. Or you can wrap your phone in tin foil.. it'll block GPS, but act as a nice antenna for your cell phone.

Of course they can still triangulate your position without GPS.. so your best choice is to stay in your basement, with your shotguns.. listening for the FBI.

Re:GPS enabling, is, at the moment, a non-issue

[Technician]

wallet escaping pocket... must resist!!!!
Sometimes spending money saves more money. Choose your toys wisely. I've saved aprox 5 hours of stuck in traffic time with mine in the last 6 months. What's that worth?
On dash nav is the only way to cut the plugged throughfares and make it through that housing complex to the next open street. Most housing complexes are lost traveler unfriendly. A map GPS fixes the gardem maze of unfamiliar winding residentual streets. It's as simple as You are Here X, the way out is up two streets to the left and around the bend. It beats being lost in the maze.

Re:GPS enabling, is, at the moment, a non-issue

[Technician]

The black helicoptors can use it to pinpoint you from above, but on the ground it ain't going to help you get from A to B any better than the sun.
Um, have you tried one of the map units? Are you thinking of the antiques that only gave a latatude and longitude? Check out the useful features they now have! Ever got lost in a suburban developement? A map unit will mark the maze with a "you are here going this direction" indication. It's a simple matter to locate a route to an exit to a main street.
I'm no longer afraid to jump off a plugged street and cut through a housing developement to the next unclogged street. It's saved me many hours sitting stuck in traffic. It's much easer (and safer) to navagate with a GPS map unit than try to read a street sign and find your location on a paper map while driving. Not all streets have the luxury of a place to pull off out of traffic to read a map. Preplaned routes in the GPS let you know your next turn is a quarter mile away, instead of trying to keep track of street signs and house numbers. Hmm, a quarter mile away, that is probably the second light ahead... It's that simple. They could take down all residentual street signs and take off all the house numbers, and I could still pull up in front of the right house on a service call. I pre-load my destination and route before leaving home.
I no longer have that "Dude, I got lost in Rhode Island yesterday" feeling.

Re:GPS enabling, is, at the moment, a non-issue

[thechuckbenz]

Throughout New England, we are consistent. Signs are only there to assure natives that they are going the right way. So, on the Mass Turnpike, we have exact change tollbooths that say just "Cars Only"; we have ambiguous Y intersections followed only 50 yards further by a route number sign to confirm your correct choice, towns are required to name streets that cross townlines without knowing the choices of the other town, etc.

We finally have gotten our revenge on the cows that laid out our streets - now even they would get lost.

Re:GPS enabling, is, at the moment, a non-issue

[thechuckbenz]

There could be a benefit to GPS - if cell phones continuously sent location and signal strength, carriers could map out their poor coverage areas without sending CanYouHearMe guys into the field.

I told them.

[SHEENmaster]

I told them to use cyphered analog rotational fequency walkie talkies. But did they listen? NO they didn't.

Der Tröll Pölkä!

[Anal Cocks]

THE TROLL POLKA (GESCHLECHT MIT ZIEGEN) By Serial Troller Is das nicht ein early post? Ja! Das ist mein early post! Is das nicht ein Goatse ghost? Ja! Das ist mein Goatse ghost! Early post, Goatse ghost, Oh, du schöne, Oh, du schöne, Oh, du schöne, Slashdot sucks! Is das nicht at minus one? Ja! Das ist at minus one! Is dis nicht ein trolling fun? Ja! Das ist mein trolling fun! Minus one, trolling fun, Early post, Goatse ghost, Oh, du schöne, Oh, du schöne, Oh, du schöne, Slashdot sucks! Is das nicht ein big crapflood? Ja! Das ist mein big crapflood! Is das night ein Taco's pud? Ja! Das ist ein Taco's pud! Big crapflood, Taco's pud, Minus one, trolling fun, Early post, Goatse ghost, Oh, du schöne, Oh, du schöne, Oh, du schöne, Slashdot sucks! Is das nicht der CowBoiKneel? Ja! Das ist der CowBoiKneel! Is dis nicht his manchode meal? Ja! Das ist his manchode meal! CowBoiKneel, manchode meal, Big crapflood, Taco's pud, Minus one, trolling fun, Early post, Goatse ghost, Oh, du schöne, Oh, du schöne, Oh, du schöne, Slashdot sucks! Is das nicht ein WIPO Troll? Ja! Das ist der WIPO Troll! Is das nicht en Goatse hole? Ja! Das ist der Goatse hole! WIPO Troll, Goatse hole, CowBoiKneel, manchode meal, Big crapflood, Taco's pud, Minus one, trolling fun,Early post, Goatse ghost, Oh, du schöne, Oh, du schöne, Oh, du schöne, Slashdot sucks! <div>Is das nicht Jon Katz' slave boys? Ja! Das ist Jon Katz' slave boys! Is das nicht Taco's sex toys? Ja! Das ist Taco's sex toys! Katz' slave boys, Rob's sex toys, WIPO Troll, Goatse hole, CowBoiKneel, manchode meal, Big crapflood, Taco's pud, Minus one, trolling fun, Early post, Goatse ghost, Oh, du schöne, Oh, du schöne, Oh, du schöne, Slashdot sucks! Is das nicht ein trolltalk thread? Ja! Das ist ein trolltalk thread! Is das nicht ein FUCKING DEAD? Ja! Das ist ein FUCKING DEAD! Trolltalk thread, FUCKING DEAD, Katz' slave boys, Rob's sex toys, WIPO Troll, Goatse hole, CowBoiKneel, manchode meal, Big crapflood, Taco's pud, Minus one, trolling fun, Early post, Goatse ghost, Oh, du schöne, Oh, du schöne, Oh, du schöne, Slashdot sucks!

____________________

© 2002 Serial Troller. Permission to reproduce this document is granted provided that you send all the bukkake porn you can find to serialtroller@hotmail.com.

Mmmm, cookies

[mdubinko]

Upon clicking the link to the article, the Popular Science web server will set two cookies, instantly making you trackable on all future visits to that server or any other with which they share data... -m

Re:Mmmm, cookies

[Technician]

Only if you let the cookies remain! A simple batch file (MS users) or cron job can take care of any new unwanted cookies next time you log on.
This keeps many sites from being broken. Your cookie history goes away when you log out of the current session. Keep some cookies, like your /. logon.

Re:Mmmm, cookies

[baka_boy]

Or, use a browser that lets you selectively accept or block cookies from each domain...it's also an interesting way to find out exactly who's trying to track you, and keep random ad banner exchanges, etc., from being able to assign a global id to you.

To bring this back on topic, let me ask you this: will there be a market in the future for consumer electronics devices (cell phones, PDAs, etc.) that give you the same level of control over how much information you're willing to share?

Re:Mmmm, cookies

[Anonymous Coward]

Or, use a browser that lets you selectively accept or block cookies from each domain...

Yeah, both Mozilla and Internet Explorer let me do that.

It's fun to got a site, not let it give you cookies, and have it get very, very angry and basically eject you.

Re:Mmmm, cookies

[ichimunki]

Given that so many cell phone users talk openly on the bus or in cafes or forget to turn the damn things off during movies, plays, in art museums, or in other places where phone calls really aren't appropriate, I doubt these yokels have any sensitivity about privacy at all. So will a market appear? I think only at the very high-end.

That Eye

[jcoy42]

on every single page is going to replace the whale in my nightmares..

Re:That Eye

[Anonymous Coward]

You have nightmares about a whale? What's your real name? Ahab?

Ya tell me about it

[El_Nofx]

In North Dakota where, we had a total of 5 murders last year, they are installing cameras all over, privacy is gone in public. Noone really even put up a fuss either, strange. On a good note we just approved a law preventing all banks from selling any of your information. First in the nation from what I understand, to be approved in a proposition.

Re:Ya tell me about it

[Mr. FullOfHate]

Your privacy is gone in public? Aww. Now you'll have to shit in restrooms instead of in the alleys behind buildings like you usually do. Too bad.

Re:Ya tell me about it

[Anonymous Coward]

Dude 5 people is like, half the entire population of North Dakota! Holy Shit! The Candians are gonna fucking walk right down through the Dakotas and take us over!

My room mate from college was right, the Candians really are gonna do it. Those bastards!

Re:Ya tell me about it

[great throwdini]

In North Dakota where, we had a total of 5 murders last year, they are installing cameras all over, privacy is gone in public.

Up from 4 in 2000? Kidding aside, from what I remember from my years in the state, a number of murders committed (and with the low absolute totals, it needn't be many) occur away from areas where I assume such cameras would be installed: back county roads, farmhouses, etc. Maybe my perception was skewed at the time - my mother (who still lives in Fargo) doesn't think the area surrounding the town's sole bus station is all that safe. Go figure.

My only guess is that such camera installations are meant to deter other criminal actions: theft, mugging, rape, etc. I wonder how effective they'll be come a harsh winter when most are bundled rather thoroughly. :p

Re:Ya tell me about it

[Anonymous Coward]

>> privacy is gone in public

Privacy in public? Isn't that like an oxymoron?

Re:Ya tell me about it

[Steve Franklin]

The fallacy in all this is that the more data you collect the more people you have to hire to process it all. Even with computer assistance, the level of intelligence required to do this job properly is not going to be met by the minimum wage employees they are going to have to hire to make it financially practical.

We either end up in a situation analogous to that described by Bill Burroughs in which everyone is either a criminal or a prison guard or they are going to have to be much more discriminating in what kind of data they collect. The classical example is all the pointers that were collected concerning the loonies who attacked the World Trade Center. They never got around to putting the dots together because they had entirely too many unrelated and meaningless dots. This is not rocket science. But then these are not rocket scientists either.

These are people who are still functioning under the Burger King metaphor that "more is better." I am sorry: More is not better. 50 cameras are not better than 1 camera in the right place. Cameras are no substitute for intelligence, and intelligence (the intellectual kind) is one quality that is severely lacking in law enforcement circles. More could be done to improve crime statistics by testing and raising the intelligence of police cadets than by any fancy technological "fix." The really sad part of this all is the more time these characters spend sitting in front of a monitor, the less time they spend learning to actually detect anything.

Re:Ya tell me about it

[colmore]

hey, that's a 25% increase in only a year!

jesus man, we've gotta triple the number of cops on the streets, this is an epidemic!

Re:Ya tell me about it

[lightcycler]

"we just approved a law preventing all banks from selling any of your information. First in the nation"

Your banks used to sell information? Damn, get a proper bank! What type of state makes banking details sellable?

Re:Ya tell me about it

[afidel]

Wrong! I have a brother and a best friend that are both in the early part of IT careers and work for telemarketing firms. They both do lots of SQL manipulation to tease information out of their databases. The people who are collecting the info make about 40-50% more than min wage and the data miners get about 2X to start. Data collection is dirt cheap and as we automate more things (credit cards, coupon cards, etc) it is just getting cheaper. Pulling useful information out of a database just takes a little knowledge of SQL in most cases, and as little as most IT people want to admit it anyone who was smart enough to go to college (about 70-80% of the population I think) can learn enough SQL to do the brunt of the work. This will keep the cost of data extraction cheap for the foreseable future.

Re:Ya tell me about it

[sk8king]

Knowing SQL like the back of your hand doesn't help you sift through videotapes from 50 cameras based in the city's downtown core.

Re:Ya tell me about it

[killmenow]

More could be done to improve crime statistics by testing and raising the intelligence of police cadets

Sadly, most intelligent people realize that policing is a shitty job and therefore avoid it.

Re:Ya tell me about it

[dbc001]

Up until recently I have disliked the idea of cameras monitoring the public, but in two weeks I will be moving into a rather shady neighborhood. A friend of mine used to live in the same area and his fiancee was robbed right in front of his apartment - they took her $2000 engagement ring. Would a few extra cameras deter some crime? Probably. Especially if they monitored them a lot at first, and made a few public busts. It would definitely make me feel a little safer. I will definitely be installing a few cameras of my own (although some of them will be fake!).

You also have to consider that my friend, who owns the building, will be actively campaigning for security cameras in the neighborhood - with the long-term goal of reducing crime and hopefully increasing property values.
-dbc

Re:Ya tell me about it

[rapid prototype]

much like politicians. the people who would make the best candidates for the jobs of police officer or state representative have the intelligence not to throw their life or morals away doing either.

-rp

Re:Ya tell me about it

[archen]

Actually the murder rate increased 1400% in a two year period in ND (from 1 to 14). Unfortunatly I can't recall the actual years.

Re:Ya tell me about it

[5KVGhost]

privacy is gone in public

Has "privacy in public" every actually existed?

There's never been an expectation of privacy in any public place, pretty much by definition. Once you step out of your house and into a public place there's nothing at all preventing me from following you around, watching where you go, who you talk to, etc. I can even stand nearby and listen to your conversations. And if I'm discreet you'd never even know you were being observed.

Chances are that no one will bother to do any of these things, of course, but none of it is illegal.

Re:Ya tell me about it

[Tetsujin28]

More could be done to improve crime statistics by testing and raising the intelligence of police cadets

Sadly, most intelligent people realize that policing is a shitty job and therefore avoid it.

And on the other hand, we have towns like New London, CT which disqualify police applicants with high IQs.

Re:Ya tell me about it

[4of12]

There's never been an expectation of privacy in any public place

Then we can categorically surmise that people talking in hushed voices or whispers in public places have absolutely no reason to do so.

People have had the expectation that some privacy existed in publicly accessible places. Simply, if people were close by, then you expected less privacy. If the nearest person was 100 meters away, you expected more privacy.

Now, with telephoto lenses in cameras and shotgun microphones, your expectations will change subtly but significantly because the cues for sensing privacy that worked for millenia no longer work.

Re:Ya tell me about it

[TRACK-YOUR-POSITION]

Has "privacy in public" every actually existed?

If you are silly and regard privacy as all or nothing, than no, of course not. You could never be 100% sure that someone wasn't hiding in the shadows of your cave...

But if you use your head, you'll realize privacy, like most everything else, is a matter of degree. How likely is it that people you don't want to know something about yourself will in fact know it in the future? The answer to this question is how much privacy you have. A likelyhood of either 0% or 100% is not desirable--society has some need to prevent its members from destroying each other, but, as human beings are judgmental creatures, they are better off not knowing too much about each other.

Seeing privacy as all or nothing puts us in one of the two undesirable extremes--most likely the Orwellian one.

Re:Ya tell me about it

[Anonymous Coward]

no one put up a fuss, you say? Sounds like a website I was on last night promoting a computer game...and saying the download would include the "gator" software making it sound like "gator" was something good. And the worst thing is the # of people who probably do consider gator a good program.

Re:Ya tell me about it

[Anonymous Coward]

You'd better check your own state. There are at least 34 other states that sell every piece of you information aggressively.

Who you bought it from.
What you bought.
When you bought it.
Where you bought it.
Why...I'm sure with a little data mining of you past transactions they could get an idea.

You'd better check. Most states also require you to opt out every year. Not just once.

Re:Ya tell me about it

[great throwdini]

Actually the murder rate increased 1400% in a two year period in ND [...] I can't recall the actual years.

1994-1996.

Re:Ya tell me about it

[Steve Franklin]

That's exactly what I had in mind. Supposedly, dumber police are better at following orders, which is certainly true. One need only look at Germany during the 2nd World war.

I-Pass (EZ-Pass) question

[sammy.lost-angel.com]

The article claims that I-Pass (which I'm assuming is the same as EZ-Pass) uses standard 802.11(b) to transmit it's data.

Anyone attempt to hack this, or have more information about this?

Re:I-Pass (EZ-Pass) question

[jackmakrl]

I think RFID is a more common technology in this application. I am mostly guessing but if those FastTrack (I-Pass, EZ-Pass....) things were 802.11(b), curious people would be putting them to more creative uses.

Re:I-Pass (EZ-Pass) question

[Fat Casper]

Think it through. You wouldn't be hacking a system, but someone's account. They'd notice when it dried up, and you'd be on all those tapes. More interestingly, Big Brother could decide to look for him and come up with you. Try explaining to Ashcroft that you're not a terrorist threat, just a malicious hacker.

It's worth the buck. Unless you're getting on the Mass Pike from I 84, in which case they should pay you a toll for putting up with their bad road design.

Re:I-Pass (EZ-Pass) question

[presearch]

It's RFID.
This article is "a must read"? Yeah, whatever.

Re:I-Pass (EZ-Pass) question

[Reece400]

Heck with I-Pass, my local McDonalds has wireless interac and debit card!it's like a jumbo remote control with a little base station, you could probably have a lot of fun with that :),

Reece,

No need for GPS

[tjcoyle]

Who needs to worry about GPS enabled phones?

A cell phone's signal is received by multiple antennas at distinct locations simultaneously, therefore, it's only a matter of using triangulation to determine a phone's location based upon signal strength.

Here's a sample of its applications, and if you do a quick search, you'll surely find more:

http://www.twincities.com/mld/twincities/3223847.h tm

Re:No need for GPS

[Zayin]

One word: Accuracy.

GPS is approximately one order of magnitude more precise than triangulation (approx 5 metres vs 50 metres in a best-case scenario)

Re:No need for GPS

[briancnorton]

Sprint and Cingular are actually putting GPS recievers IN the phones, while verizon and others are doing the triangulation thing. The triangulation is really only useful in remote areas. Multipath and timing errors severly limit its usefulness. GPS on the other hand only works outside.

Re:No need for GPS

[Anonymous Coward]

A cell phone's signal is received by multiple antennas at distinct locations simultaneously, therefore, it's only a matter of using triangulation to determine a phone's location based upon signal strength.

Which is why I turned off my cell phone and only used cash when I tought I might have to run. heh, I was ready to live in the woods for months if I had to.

~Psyhco Bob

your cellphone *already* lowjacks you

[Jamie Zawinski]

People who are paranoid about getting GPSes in cellphones must not realize how small most cells are: if your cellphone is turned on, its location can already be determined to within a pretty small area: a quarter mile or less inside cities.

Re:your cellphone *already* lowjacks you

[ceejayoz]

Which is a lot when you consider that GPS can narrow it down to what, about six inches? Not all that comforting anymore.

Re:your cellphone *already* lowjacks you

[stuffman64]

This is very true, in fact last year I witnessed a motorcycle accident in State College, Pa (location of my Alma Mater, PSU). When I called 911 to tell them of the accident, they did not ask me for my location, rather, she asked my to confirm if I was infact on East College avenue by the OfficeMax and the Supermarket.

Cell phone location is possible without GPS by timing the signal arrival between different towers. This is not nearly effective as GPS, but this time they hit it right on the head. Unfortunately, this non-GPS solution is much more expensive and less accurate than the GPS route, but nonetheless effective in semi-rural areas such as where I was.

Read about this technology here.

Re:your cellphone *already* lowjacks you

[billn]

I think you might be a little on the paranoid side. Were you the first person to report a motorcycle accident within the first few minutes of it happening? Dispatch operators tend to be in near proximity to each other, and likely have some form of information sharing, if not simply overhearing the call next to them.

Re:your cellphone *already* lowjacks you

[stuffman64]

I assure you I was the first one calling. It was 3:00 in the morning in the rain, and I happened to be right behind the motorcycle when he slid around the turn and into the telephone pole, with a nice tib-fib fracture as a result. I called 911 as I went to help him (Eagle Scout Skillz), and it was at least 3 minutes before another vehicle drove by and stopped to assist.

Re:your cellphone *already* lowjacks you

[Anonymous Coward]

Moreover, Dzokhar Dudaev, the fisrt "president" of the self-proclaimed Chechen Republic (Ichkeria) was killed by a missile that used the satellite-phone signal as a beacon for homing. The Israeli Mosad reportedly used similar techniques to eliminate palestinian militants. Do your own research to confirm the above -- I don't know what source you will believe. Google's your friend.

Re:your cellphone *already* lowjacks you

[Fat Casper]

Cell phone location is possible without GPS by timing the signal arrival between different towers. This is not nearly effective as GPS...

Umm... That's how GPS works. Your reciever times the arrival of signals from several sattelites and decides where it is. Cell tower positioning is the same thing with the work being done at the other end.

Keeping records and triangulating isn't "much more expensive and less accurate" than launching and maintaining a constellation of sattelites. It's just more expensive to reinvent the wheel. It is more accurate, however; a good GPS signal isn't always there, but if you're on the phone, you are hooked in to the towers.

Re:your cellphone *already* lowjacks you

[afidel]

Unfortunately, this non-GPS solution is much more expensive and less accurate than the GPS route, but nonetheless effective in semi-rural areas such as where I was.

Actually if you are indoors it is probably more acurate as most modern buildings block GPS reception. On top of that in agregate it is probably much cheaper to build some software and minimal hardware to do the triangulation thing than it is to put a GPS received in every cellphone. There are over 100 million cellphones in the US alone, that is a lot of new handsets to add GPS to. Of course the cellular carriers and handset makers probably aren't complaing: You HAVE to upgrade, the government says so, we don't want to force you to buy a new $200 phone it's the law.

Re:your cellphone *already* lowjacks you

[mjs]

Funny, when I called 000 from my mobile I had to give the state, then the city, then I got transferred to someone else who asked what service I wanted...

Privacy Legislation (uhhh...yeah)

[Sean Clifford]

This point has been hammered home time and again, but it's obvious that Americans (and everyone else, but talking US in this specific instance) need privacy legislation. Unfortunately, the only kind they're likely to get is the sort put forth by the distinguished Senator from Disney.

Obviously, opt-out should be the default, otherwise an undue burden of opting-out on tens of thousands of databases would be placed on the individual.

Unfortunately, with the current climate ushered in by the War on *.*, we're not likely to see anything remotely resembling protection of civil liberties for years to come.

Until we fight collection and access to this data, we're all going to be run against "terrorist" profiles. The feds might decide that your choice of cusine this weekend fits a "terrorist diet" profile - though to pick a point with the article I think a visit from the feds is much more likely to result from a /. post than a visit to the supermarket.

Re:Privacy Legislation (uhhh...yeah)

[Allen Varney]

Obviously, opt-out should be the default, otherwise an undue burden of opting-out on tens of thousands of databases would be placed on the individual.

I think you mean "opt-IN should be the default." (AOL mode on) Me too! (AOL mode off)

Now with more hate

[Mr. FullOfHate]

Popular Science is running an excellent article on just how private our daily lives are.

Popular Science is a magazine for degenerates and perverts. Freak.

The article chronicles a typical day of a make-believe Graphics Designer from Chicago. Throughout his day, he unwittingly supplies companies with information that can potentially be used against him.

Hah! Used against him?! As if anyone would care about some asslick "Graphic Designer" (read jagoff software doodler).

And with GPS-enabled cell phones just starting to hit the market, our privacy can only continue to deteriorate from here

Well, those of us who arent filthy drug-using child molesters like you aren't losing too much sleep. Try NOT BUYING a GPS-enabled cell, genius.

A must read.

Fuck you.

Another good PopSci Read

[stuffman64]

I should have included this in my original post, but PopSci also has a good article about the E911 GPS service in their most recent issue. I thought I saw it on their site, but apparently it is not there.

Here is another feature which links to a website that can map out a route in Manhattan to avoid its 2400 or so security cameras watching your every move. If you happened to read the article, a link to this also appears to the right.

By now you would think I work for Popular Science. I have no job. I employ my University with a $24,000 per year salary.

Re:Another good PopSci Read

[Anonymous Coward]

I employ my University with a $24,000 per year salary.

That's a pretty hefty tuition. Hope you aren't getting an English degree, or I'd ask for a refund.

Re:Another good PopSci Read

[stuffman64]

No, that is not tuition, but in fact the sum of all the money I pay to Penn State every year. It may be somewhat inflated, but tution+room and board+books+other shit, it becomes close to that figure. And I'm a Computer Engineering Major, nothing to do with the horrid libral arts.

Re:Another good PopSci Read

[Anonymous Coward]

nothing to do with the horrid libral arts.

Heaven forfend that you ever become literate.

Re:Another good PopSci Read

[colmore]

Hell if it wasn't for Uncle Sam and a few private scholarships, I'd be paying Columbia $35k a year.

Or rather, my parents would...

Or rather, I'd be going to a state school for free.

Re:Another good PopSci Read

[Anonymous Coward]

Heh. Losing karma replying to an AC. Nice work.

Fuckwit.

One thing about privacy...

[Devil's BSD]

I'm one of those believers that if you don't have anything to hide, you wouldn't be concerned about privacy. I don't do anything bad; I'm not about to blow up the Chuck E. Cheese's down the street with a dirty bomb or anything. And the GPS enabled cell phones could help with rescur operations, like in the article. In fact, the article in the magazines mention stuff about GPS locations being beamed only if a button is pressed. The article also mentions ATM cameras, street cameras, the supermarket discount cards, tollbooths, IM's, emails, medical insurance databases, and more. There is not really anything new for the well-educated slashdotter though.

Re:One thing about privacy...

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm not about to blow up the Chuck E. Cheese's down the street with a dirty bomb or anything.

Dirty bomb for Chuck E. Cheese? Nah, use napalm for that. ;)

And now for something completely different:

I'm one of those believers that if you don't have anything to hide, you wouldn't be concerned about privacy.

I'm not very paranoid, just slightly. I'm not 100% sure EVERY SINGLE piece of music, video or software in my abode is 100% in compliance with Copyright or EULA issues. I do have a rather expensive collection of legitimate music, videos and software, to be sure. But I feel like big corporations are trying harder and harder to catch me off balance and am slightly afraid they would actually want to send me to prison for that crap. No, I'm not an anarchist, and I don't think the world owes me free entertainment. And I pay for almost all of my entertainment.

I also usually drive completely within the law. I'd hate to get caught by a machine if I absentmindedly let my speed slip 2mph over the limit.

Re:One thing about privacy...

[ShadowDrake]

Most of us have something to hide. The real issue is "why are people trying to hide things?" The rationale runs the gamut from the downright illegal ("That's not a dirty bomb... it's an old MicroVAX taken apart!") to the simply embarrassing ("You can't prove that the AC posting on /. at 20.30 on a Friday night when he should have a date is me!") to attempts at planning ("No, honey. I didn't buy you your birthday present yet.") Why should cases 2 and 3 have to lose their legitimate use of privacy, to chase the low probability of catching case 1?

Re:One thing about privacy...

[billn]

On some points, I'm inclined to agree with you, but. Us Americans are in a capitalist society, and profiteers will capitalize on anything to milk more money out of the masses. It's one thing for government to have access to data about me. In some cases, it's a necessery evil.

When it comes to advertising and marketers, I fall back to the basics: Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Notably, that liberty part. Why should I have to waste my free time wading through ads I may not be interested in? If I'm paying all the costs to maintain my cell phone, why should anyone be freely allowed to send ads to it? What if I'm not interested in geophysically targeted marketing? Why should I have to turn my phone off to avoid it, when I may be expecting an important call, or an unexpected emergency call comes through?

Overall, I thought the article to be fairly bland, and frankly, rather alarmist.

Re:One thing about privacy...

[Anonymous Coward]

"I'm one of those believers that if you don't have anything to hide, you wouldn't be concerned about privacy."

I won't spend a lot of time pounding on the fact that you are posting under an alias, rather than yor real name, though I will mention it. 8-).

My problem is not that I'm afraid for my actions to be publically recorded, but that I might be victimized by the local government. For example, if I kiss my date good night at her door, and there's an ordinance against PDA (Public Display of Affection), then I'm ticketed an fined.

It's not so much the good laws as the bad laws that you want to avoid.

I guess if you want to get technical, I'm for "hiding" from bad laws.

-- Terry

Re:One thing about privacy...

[Anonymous Coward]

...if you don't have anything to hide then you have nothing to worry about....

EVERYONE has something to hide and because of that we all should be entitled to be able to hide it. In my oppinion the government is using the terrorist attacks as a way to totally take away our freedom little by little...a scenario like Demolition Man (movie...watch it) may not be too far off at the rate that we're going...someone needs to stand up for our rights and not accept that the destruction of our privacy wont be abused because it will....and it was the governments fault that they let al-queida get this far why the hell should the citizens have to pay the consequences

Re:One thing about privacy...

[Anonymous Coward]

I believe I can illustrate my point by the following:

How would you like it if anyone and everyone could come in and watch while you're stroking your gonads to goatse.cx? How would you like them to tell your parents?

Peer pressure is a bitch. The point of privacy is to make sure people can still be individuals and not have to 100% conform to social expectations all the time in every way. With privacy, being a good members of society doesn't mean people have to march in line like a bunch of mindless ants.

...I guess I just like thinking for myself.

Re:One thing about privacy...

[Anonymous Coward]

The thing is with invasion of privacy that YOU do not decide what is or is not matter of privacy : everything can, and will be used against you... and everybody has some embarassing details to keep away from publicity.
Haven't you read Georgre Orwell's 1984 ?

Re:One thing about privacy...

[Fat Casper]

I don't do anything bad; I'm not about to blow up the Chuck E. Cheese's down the street with a dirty bomb or anything.

That's shortsighted as hell. Maybe nothing you do is "bad" now, but maybe something you do will be illegal tomorrow. There are plenty of things that are perfectly legal that are unpopular as hell. Voting is legal, but the idea of the secret ballot is the only thing that makes it work. Privacy is more vital to our lives than simply not going to jail.

Remember: If we let Bush and Ashcroft tear up our Constitution, then the terrorists have already won.

Re:One thing about privacy...

[Anonymous Coward]

The problem with that idea is this: what is the definition of "wrong" and who gets to define it? I know many people who break many laws that they don't agree with. Speeding, not wearing your seat belt and jay-walking just to name a few of the obvious. I was recently turned in by a neighbor to the city code enforcement because I have an (apparently) illegal electrical fence to keep my dogs from jumping it. Nevermind the facts that I bought it at the local hardware store, that it's voltage is really too low to give anyone any more of a shock than they would by walking across carpet and touching a doornob or that the only way anyone could be possibly harmed by this is if they were trespassing in my back yard. Now I happened to get off because it wasn't plugged in and hadn't been for months. I believe the same neighbor that turned me in also put a note in my mailbox (a federal offense) to complain of my dog barking when I wasn't around. So as you can see things that many people might not even give a thought to as being "wrong" can be defined by the powers that be as such.

Actually what really concerns me is not the mostly harmless petty laws like those mentioned above but more of some people in powers hidden and sometimes not so hidden agenda's. If you could be a potential threat to the right someone's grab for power these things could easily turn against you. And since the media is often bought and paid for by these types a small vice such as looking up internet porn for instance (none of us would do such a thing...right 8-) ) could be turned into a huge scandal that could cost this person a job, a marriage and potentially everything else in their life.

I think unless you are a Buddist monk you can't completely say that you have nothing to hide because someone will find fault with it.

Re:One thing about privacy...

[Anonymous Coward]

Remember: If we let Bush and Ashcroft tear up our Constitution, then the terrorists have already won

well put , No point fighting something if beating it means you become it.

There was a time when USA was the land of the free and would try to take the moral high ground in international disputes, now Americans seems to accept that they live in an authoritarian regime and just use might rather than right to put it's point across.

Re:One thing about privacy...

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, I have something to hide.

That's why I wear clothes....
Eugh...

Re:One thing about privacy...

[Anonymous Coward]

Sorry.

Your bushwhacking doesn't make sense.

If algore had been elected, do you seriously think the terrorists wouldn't have blown up the WTC? They tried the first time when Clinton was in power.

Truth is, the only big difference if Gore was pres. is that we probably would have flown the whole fleet of survellience planes over to China and surrendered them as an apology.

Various malcontents with lots of money would still be trying to rip down Western Civilization because it doesn't fit well with their religious dogma.

Gore's minions would still be slowly eroding our constitutional rights. The Big Government way, like liberals always do.

Re:One thing about privacy...

[colmore]

"First they came for the Communists, but I was not a Communist so I did not speak out. Then they came for the Socialists and the Trade Unionists, but I was neither, so I did not speak out. Then they came for the Jews, but I was not a Jew so I did not speak out. And when they came for me, there was no one left to speak out for me."

- Martin Niemoeller

"Those who would trade freedom for a little temporary security
deserve neither freedom nor security.".

- Ben Franklin

The question is not why are they watching you now. The question is why they will be watching you in 10, 20, 50 years. The simple fact is, no government avoids tyranny for a very long time, and our founding fathers knew it. With this kind of precedent set, a future, less nice, government basically has free reign over your data.

It's funny, the American revolution was fought over far smaller violations than the current American government commits every single day. I always find questions like "what would Thomas Jefferson do" in regards to current political questions. Thomas Jefferson would overthrow the US government with armed force. Thomas Jefferson was a terrorist / patriot / freedom-fighter.

Re:One thing about privacy...

[colmore]

You can judge a society by how many laws it has. With enough laws, everyone is a criminal and the government has free reign via selective enforcement.

I live in a small southern city, and I see it happening allready. If you are a black male and you get arrested, you are never, ever, ever, getting off of parole, they'll add a year for tossing a cigarette out of your car.

Thankfully, I'm a white kid with middle-class parents. The police let me get away with a quarter ounce sack of marijuana with only a warning. God bless America.

Re:One thing about privacy...

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm one of those believers that if you don't have anything to hide, you wouldn't be concerned about privacy.

Just so you know, the technical term for people like that is "fucking idiots".

HTH

Re:One thing about privacy...

[Mr. Slippery]

I'm one of those believers that if you don't have anything to hide, you wouldn't be concerned about privacy. I don't do anything bad...

The problem is that your definition of "bad" may not be the same as everyone elses. Martin Luther King Jr.'s civil rights work wasn't "bad" in any way, but that didn't stop Hoover from spying on him.

Political demonstrators aren't doing anything wrong, but that doesn't stop them from being subject to surveillance and harasssment by police.

Getting an AIDS test isn't "bad", in fact it's a laudable precaution, but that hasn't stopped some health insurance companies from denying coverage based on the mere taking of the test.

Re:One thing about privacy...

[Mr. Slippery]

I always find questions like "what would Thomas Jefferson do" in regards to current political questions. Thomas Jefferson would overthrow the US government with armed force.

Of course, he would probably then roll back civil rights for racial minorities, women's sufferage, etcetera.

Never base your judgement on what someone else would do.

Not concerned about having privacy...

[Anonymous Coward]

...It's the privacy I don't have that gets to me.

Re:Not concerned about having privacy...

[Mr. FullOfHate]

What a coincidence. It's the intelligence you don't have that gets to everyone else. You drooling cretin.

Re:Not concerned about having privacy...

[Anonymous Coward]

How is that a coincidence? Perhaps it is a "coincidence" that you call me a drooling cretin, when obviously you are the one without motor control enough to compose a coherent thought. Also, your mother is anauteral, your father cockless.

Re:Not concerned about having privacy...

[Mr. FullOfHate]

Anauteral? Woah, nice fifty-cent word! Yer gonna put somebody's eye out with a sharp mind like that, Professor Noodles!

Try not to drool all over your keyboard, cretin.

Re:Not concerned about having privacy...

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah? Well at least I can spell "whoa" -- as in Whoa! Look out! Too cool for me! You just dissed me with a lame-o (yes! Lame-o) pun on "sharp" minds. Ha! Also, you used "fifty-cent word", which means you're a bigger fuckwad than you are a dumbass. And c), I may not be the sharpest tack you've ever sat on, but mess with me, and you're going to find yourself anauteral. (or at the very least, castrated)

Re:Not concerned about having privacy...

[Mr. FullOfHate]

You are a sick twisted subhuman dirtbag. Here's hoping you don't go on a killing spree at your highschool come fall.

Cretin.

Re:Not concerned about having privacy...

[Anonymous Coward]

As a matter of fact, I am completely completing graduate studies at Oxford. It would be rather inconvenient having to cross the Altantic just to visit my high school, especially since I couldn't very well bring firearms, but would have to purchase them locally, a fact made more difficult by my being no longer a US citizen. Also, if somehow I did manage to cross the Atlantic and procure firearms, I would be entirely too tempted to find you down, to hunt you down and subject you to endless reels of the same kind of trolling you and your ilk so shamelessly engage in on a minutely basis. Perhaps it is your high school that should be worried, since you seem still to be attending it, and very bitterly so: have you been kept back, then? For several years now? What's that, this is your sixth try at tenth grade? Well, good luck. I don't think any less of you for trying.
Though you should be careful about that cretin word. People in glass houses...

Re:Not concerned about having privacy...

[Mr. FullOfHate]

"Find you down?" that how they talk at that thair Awx-Furd? You shoor ar smart!

Fuckin lying zit-faced schoolboy. It's twisted sickos like you that make this world such a hellish shithole.

Re:Not concerned about having privacy...

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh! I hope you didn't think I was being serious -- I do beg your pardon. In case you failed to catch the reference, "find you down" is a jab at your own president. "We will hunt these folks [sic] down, we will smoke 'em out of their holes, and justice will be served. The axis of evil cannot be allowed to spin unassailed." (or another equally inappopriate word just long enough to sound important while being short enough for the President to have some chance of not "mispronounciating" it. Strategery. That's the key.

So have you education, Mr. FullOfHate?

I shouldn't think so, but one can always enquire (or "inquire", for you American chaps), nicht-war? (or n'est-ce pas -- Look at me wallowing in my Oxford Erudition!)

Re:Not concerned about having privacy...

[Mr. FullOfHate]

Stop lying. You're only making yourself look more stupid. I feel sorry for all the innocent high school students you're going to murder this fall, you sick freak. Just do us all a favor and shoot yourself when you're down to one bullet, okay?

Re:Not concerned about having privacy...

[Anonymous Coward]

Why when I'm down to one bullet? It would do much less carnage to use the first bullet on myself, before I kill anyone else.

Dipshit.

Re:Not concerned about having privacy...

[Anonymous Coward]

anyway, I'm going to sleep. Nice trolling, Mr. whoever.

Re:Not concerned about having privacy...

[Mr. FullOfHate]

Now you're finally catching on.

What, from your bank account?

[serps]

Visit your ATM infrequently...

...and withdraw from your bank account? The one with your name, address and account history attached, administrated by the bank that has access to your home loan details and credit history?

Re:What, from your bank account?

[BankofAmerica_ATM]

I cannot know your particular financial institution, but it is possible that the Bank of America could utilize your personal information in order to seize your assets and create a global financial crisis, forcing people to retreat into a Project Faustus-created world. I am doing my best to stop this eventuality.

Re:What, from your bank account?

[Wyatt Earp]

I cash my checks each and every month.

I buy my firearms, computers, games with that money.

Then my farm checks, etc goes in the bank for the real bills.

goatse replacement

[Anonymous Coward]

i did it! ive finally found something grosser than the goatse pictures! http://www.99x.com/new_morningx/photos_courtney_lo ve.html .. i am now going to move to PA and become amish so i can never have to see something like that again

Re:goatse replacement

[Anonymous Coward]

You notice the lasik ad on that web page? That so you can get your eyes zapped out of your head after seeing the images.

Simple times?

[DrugCheese]

Maybe things were simpler when the only privacy people had to worry about were people lookin at their privates.

Terrorist Eating habits?

[interactive_civilian]

From the 5:47 pm: Discount card section:

Meanwhile, Larry Ponemon, the CEO of Privacy Council, says that since September 11 he's been hired by at least one major supermarket chain to oversee the handing over to law enforcement agencies of the buying records of customers with specific ethnic backgrounds. The authorities requested the data, Ponemon says, because they were trying to compile a profile of "terrorist eating habits."

So, what exactly are the eating habits of a terrorist? Do they all eat the same thing? Can I be flagged as a terrorist because I enjoy Mid-East food? Or, perhaps I am one of those "axis of evil" Korean people because I like kimchi and yaki-niku(ok, so that one is Japanese/Korean food)...

Is anyone else at least moderately (understatement) disturbed by the compiling of a profile of "terrorist eating habits"? It seems insanely useless to me. The idea that someone might get "special attention" because of the way he/she eats...pffft. The sad thing is, I won't be at all surprised if/when this happens.

Re:Terrorist Eating habits?

[josh crawley]

Dont you know? This is one of the government's ways to funnel money to black ops groups. Seriously. There's things we do that teh public wouldn't want to know about. Since it's not a war, we funnel money from "profilings".

Re:Terrorist Eating habits?

[PacoTaco]

The authorities requested the data, Ponemon says, because they were trying to compile a profile of "terrorist eating habits."

To allay suspicion, be sure to buy pork or alcohol every time you go to the store.

Re:Terrorist Eating habits?

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, if you like kimchi there is something wrong with you...

Re:Terrorist Eating habits?

[mlk]

Its a Scienceitifly proven fact that all terrorists don't eat ham and pinnaple pizza, instead go for crappy flavours like Tuna and Sweetcorn!
So remember all, next time you are at a LAN party, and some sick terrorist bastard orders tuna and sweetcorn, kill the fucker, for [Queen and] Country.

Re:Terrorist Eating habits?

[Anonymous Coward]

That is such a cop out.

I for one would like to know.

I think what you mean is "There are some things _I_ don't want to tell the public"

Of course the fact that funding is easy to secure when no one can prove that you are not doing your job has nothing to do with it.

Re:Terrorist Eating habits?

[Black_Logic]

I don't know, I can think of one example where some terrorist profilling would make things a little more sane. After the twin tower thing I flew up to see my dad in NC, just about everyone in the line at the security gates was being checked. It was like trying to go through customs coming from Columbia. Specifically I saw a young white woman holding a toddler in one arm opening up her bag for some jackass security attendant with the all while trying to tend to an upset baby in a stroller next to her. I'm all for racial, gender, sexual preference equality, but has an expectant mother or an little old grandma or teenage girl EVER hijacked a plane or commited an act of terrorism?! I'm only assuming of course that many of those types of people that I saw being checked, were checked because of politically correct reasons.( For all i know the security guy could have seen loads of C4 peeking out of the mother's baby's anus. )

Re:Terrorist Eating habits?

[gilroy]

Blockquoth the poster:

I'm all for racial, gender, sexual preference equality, but has an expectant mother or an little old grandma or teenage girl EVER hijacked a plane or commited an act of terrorism?!

Don't be an idiot. As soon as the authorities adopt an exlcusive rule -- "We won't stop grandmothers" -- they open up a huge hole in their procedures, one which will get exploited. How many people ever crashed 767 into skyscrapers after hijacking them with paper cutters? The only way such procedures as searches can be effective is if they are either (a) universal or (b) truly random and very frequent. Any pattern employed can be used against the search. Why do you think Al Queada is trying to recruit "ordinary" Americans??

From where I sit, all this whining about "They even search gradmas, for Pete's sake" seems to come from people who are all for waging war but don't want to pay even the tiny price of extra time in the airports. "Let's you and them fight, but as soon as this 'war' involves sacrifice on my part, we need to reconsider." And generally it's not really the 76-year-old grandma that they want excluded from the search -- it's the safe-seeming white middle class.

Re:Terrorist Eating habits?

[Anonymous Coward]

Dude did you hack in the milion dollar oracle database (CA had some spare licences lying around) where "they" put together all this data, mix in some of their list of "suspected" last names they have been distributing to airport securtity

And after milions of years of procesing the oracle database explaines it has the answer, but they are really not going to like it, are you sure you want to hear it?, the answer to the question "what do terrorist eat" is, are you sure you want to hear this?, "they dont eat porc or drink alcohol", Told you you wouldn`t like it!

I think "they" will use a bigger computer next time, about the size of the earth or so.

Re:Terrorist Eating habits?

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm all for racial, gender, sexual preference equality, but has an expectant mother or an little old grandma or teenage girl EVER hijacked a plane or commited an act of terrorism?!

1986, Heathrow airport, London. An Irish girl, pregnant by her Jordanian boyfriend was flying out to meet him. She was going to marry him, she thought. What she didn't know was that he'd stuck a bomb in her luggage. Luckily a search like the one you're critcising found the bomb.

Check it yourself on Google

Re:Terrorist Eating habits?

[bungo]

but has an expectant mother or an little old grandma or teenage girl EVER hijacked a plane or commited an act of terrorism?!

Are you serious?

Do you ever what the news, or doesn't your news cover the middle-east?

Only some weeks ago, a teenage girl blew her self up in Israel. In fact, it was the first time that a bomber was a teenage girl, which is why it made international news.

So much for your ideas of gender profiling.

Re:Terrorist Eating habits?

[lightcycler]

"To allay suspicion, be sure to buy alcohol every time you go to the store."

Okay, no problem! Glad to help the fight against terrorism.

Re: Terrorist Eating habits?

[IsoRashi]

Terrorist Mutant Ninja Turtles Terrorist Mutant Ninja Turtles Terrorist Mutant Ninja Turtles Terrors in a half-shell, turtle power! The Feds should be scouring the sewers then I guess?

Re:Terrorist Eating habits?

[Reziac]

In VietNam, and I understand this has also happened in the Middle East, little kids and doddery old people were routinely strapped full of explosives and sent into "enemy" camps. So, no, you can't discount the possibility, or it's not just a hole in security procedure, it's an outright invitation.

(Not that the current security methods work in the first place, but..)

Re:Terrorist Eating habits?

[Hoi Polloi]

Ok, how many black people have hijacked planes yet how often do white folks get pulled over by cops vs blacks? Racial profiling is A-OK as long as it happens to someone else, right?

Re:Terrorist Eating habits?

[Anonymous Coward]

This must be a troll... But how did it get a score of 5?

Truly random searching is absolutely worthless. They need to search *EVERYONE*.

If they search N people getting onto a plane, all you need is M (M>N) terrorists. Not to mention that visual searches are *USELESS* unless your terrorists are very, very stupid. Lets face it, how many people are going to get past X-Ray, particulate matter scans, body wands, hand searches for anything questionable, etc and still get caught by a hand search of 1% of the passengers at the gate?

Seems to me those random search procedures are more about waving your used underwear around the terminal, showing off the skid marks to the other passengers, merely to humiliate the poor slob who gets bullied. Quite frankly, I don't want to know what "martial aids" the other passengers are packing.

Re:Terrorist Eating habits?

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, I definitely want to know what martial aids they're packing. Now marital aids... Well... Is she cute? Do they swing?

Re:Terrorist Eating habits?

[NeoSkandranon]

Dude, a teenage Palistinian girl did blow herself up you know..

Re:Terrorist Eating habits?

[Black_Logic]

I'm not suggesting a law be made that let white middle class males and grandma's be excluded from airport search.

While my last comment was admittedly half-baked, I do find it frustrating that a mother and her to very young children (they were black, if that matters or is relevant) would be subject to the random search. Just what the fuck ARE the terms for their supposedly random search?? Like I guessed in my previous comment, I don't think the idea is (pick people at random to decrease security holes) I'd rather guess it was (pick some people who couldn't possibly be terrorists and everyone who does look like a terrorist in an effort to avoid heat from minority rights groups). But that's purely a assumption, which is the reason I pointed out that my last post was half-baked. Still, If you were to ask me if over politicly correct policy (a result of a wave of frivolous lawsuits) was bad, my answer would be yes.

Regardless, I'm a young (21) white male, so I have absolutely no say in this matter. I do believe my statement but for the aformentioned reason, my view has very little credibility (for good reasons). I agree with your point as well; my last comment was not intended to be inflamatory.

Must be Yanks

[HeLLaLaMe]

Jugging from the comments here you must be all yanks. So what if companies know if you buy gay porn instead of blonde teen. No one really cares about what your upto, as long as annoying advertising is not in my face then its fine. Sure if you are into illegal stuff then privacy all the way. (A side note) you should see how many time I put down Rodregez as my name on web pages.

Re:Must be Yanks

[Anonymous Coward]

If you want the fake name to work, may I suggest you spell it "Rodriguez"? :-)

Re:Must be Yanks

[Rhinobird]

You say that now. Wait till you try running for office. Your opponent bribes someone to get you spending habits and finds out that you like the gay porn. Your opponent then lambasts you in media as against family values and tradition and what not. You lose. There was nothing wrong with what you were doing, but then again, it wasn't anybody else's business either.

I know I personally wouldn't want some of the strip joints I go to, to become common knowledge. While I may enjoy the naked women, I wouldn't want a potential employer (or even my current employer) to know what I'm gonna be doing with that money they'd be(en) paying me.

Too much information can color an impression of an otherwise honorable person. You may say something like, "I have nothing to hide, so this doesn't bother me." Don't fall into that trap. Something will come up that you would rather not be public knowledge. Maybe you wet the bed till you were in high school. Do you want your boss to confront you about that herpes test you had last week? Do your co-workers know how you REALLY feel about Star Trek/Star Wars/Buffy/Simpsons? What would they say about ALL that memorabelia that you have? What were you DOING down in the seedier parts of town last night? Buying drugs? No...just seeing those stippers...again. Does your Mom know about your subcription to Playboy/Penthouse/Hustler/Big'uns? All those things and more will become easier and easier to discover, just because you say you have nothing to hide.

Re:Must be Yanks

[CProgrammer98]

"Maybe you wet the bed till you were in high school."

Nope

"Do you want your boss to confront you about that herpes test you had last week?"

Never had one

"Do your co-workers know how you REALLY feel about Star Trek/Star Wars/Buffy/Simpsons?"

Yes, and what has that to do with my job anyway?

"What would they say about ALL that memorabelia that you have?"

Don't have any

"What were you DOING down in the seedier parts of town last night?"

Never been there. Don't drink, don't smoke, don't do drugs. Happily married for the last 21 years. getting all the pleasure I need from my wife.

"Buying drugs? No...just seeing those stippers...again."

Nope, see above.

"Does your Mom know about your subcription to Playboy/Penthouse/Hustler/Big'uns?"

don't have one. See above the above.

Some people really are upstanding honest citizens wwho lead perfectly normal (some may say boring) lives, and are perfectly happy doing so.

Re:Must be Yanks

[Skater]

...said the guy who uses "CProgrammer98" instead of his real name as his /. user ID.

What? No webpage either? Why not? You have nothing to hide. ;)

--RJ :)

Re:Must be Yanks

[Anonymous Coward]

Why should he expose all that info to a dirtbag like you on a site like this?

Re:Must be Yanks

[CProgrammer98]

My real name is Steve Atkinson. You're right, I don't have a webpage otherwise I'd put that in my profile.

Happy? Good!

Re:Must be Yanks

[The Only Druid]

You know what, if you're embarassed about something you're dong, then you shouldn't be doing it. One of the simplest codes of moral ethics in the world is this: if you wouldn't be proud to have it printed on a t-shirt and worn by your mother (i.e. "my son masturbates to chinese fetish films") then you shouldn't be doing it. If you cant be proud of your actions, then YOU already know that you're doing something wrong. Grow up, and admit that everyone deserves to be held morally responsible for everything they do. As for the specific comment of gay porn being used to lambast family values, that reflects a current failure in most of the world to acknowledge homosexuality and bisexuality as natural: the fact is though, it is as much part of your personality (and thus appropriate to discuss for elections, hirings, etc.) as your skin color, religion, and personal interests.

Re:Must be Yanks

[Anonymous Coward]

Ever heard of a little place called reality?

Re:Must be Yanks

[killmenow]

How 'bout this then...

getting all the pleasure I need from my wife.

Ever done it up the butt with your wife? (I mean not to offend, only to illustrate a point.) Some places have laws still that make that act illegal. They are seldom enforced...but still on the books. Now, I'm sure you are an upstanding person who is easy to get along with...but, being human (you are, aren't you?) makes you imperfect just like the rest of us and thereby prone to making mistakes on occasion. On one occasion, perhaps your mistake is to piss off the brother of a police officer...then he gets his brother to look into your ass-fucking history and brings you up on charges because...well, it's illegal.

Now, this is just an example. Perhaps sometimes you drive too fast, or keep a library book overdue, or inadvertently do something that violates some little-known, little-advertised regulation in some sub-paragraph of a dusty law book. All you need to do is anger one guy (a friend of a friend of an asshole cop) to get someone on your back. And if they're allowed to look into your every move without just cause, and they have records that show everything you've done over the years, then that one thing you did...well, it could get you a year in jail, or at least a public humiliation and reputation as someone who's "had trouble with the law."

Personally, I think the solution is to have no secrets. I think the reason people get wiered out about privacy is that there is an imbalance in it. To wit: the government can know all kinds of secrets about you, but you have little to no ability to know the government's secrets. If the law was that there are no secrets...that no person, no matter who they are or what their position, is entitled to even one secret...the playing field would be level...and what would it matter that you know what goes on in my bedroom because I know what goes on in yours...it would become such trivia as to be boring and so would be mostly ignored...but if I were commiting crimes, anyone could know about it...and if George W. Bush were evil or maybe trying to hide something well...he couldn't, and we'd all know every last detail about the skeletons in his closet.

Re:Must be Yanks

[Anonymous Coward]

My real name is Steve Atkinson.

Would that be Steve Atkinson of Telspec? Steve Atkinson the Washington College telecomm manager? NC DOT?

Re:Must be Yanks

[dbc001]

What if you don't realize that what you're doing is illegal? What if you are into growing plants, and the cops bust in and confiscate all your cash, computers, and electronics gear because they detected the heat lamp you use to grow tropical plants? What about the case of Steve Jackson Games, a respectable company that was making an innocent game about hacking/espionage/etc? They had all their computers confiscated even though they never actually did anything wrong! What if your friends have done something illegal and it turns out that you are guilty of conspiracy? (that conspiracy thing is no joke, it happened to me).

My point is that you probably do have something to hide, but you may not know it.

While this discussion may be US-centric, keep in mind that the US runs the show. Any issue in the states is a global issue, because Bush & Ashcroft will shove it down your throats if you don't fight against it now.
-dbc

Re:Must be Yanks

[CProgrammer98]

Interesting points.

Yes I am human, I lead what might be considered by many to be a trivial and boring life. Of course I have made mistakes, and violated minor laws, such as speeding, but have paid the penalty when I got caught( a small fine) and that didn't bother me in the slightest. I don't think I've ever done anything that would cause me "public humiliation" and at least here in the UK, I would hope (perhaps wrongly) that our CPS (Criminal Prosecution Service) would toss out on the spot any case brought against me because I angered a friend of a friend of a bad cop. They're far too busy dealing with real criminals.

There is a place for secrecy (bank acount numbers and stuff like that) but it irritates me when people go on about having movements tracked by gps phones/atm withdrawels/loyalty cards/public cameras and how it is such a violation of privacy that someone knows this stuff. I don't give a toss that someone knows I took 20 quid out of an ATM this morning, or that at 08:00 I left my house to go catch the train. If people are that curious about my life, then all I can say is that they lead even sadder lives than I do!!!

The fact that surveilance such as that mentioned above can help catch real crims is more important to me than not having surveilance because people feel it violates their privacy. I'm not even really that bothered about people reading my emails, there's nothing important or exciting in them!

Re:Must be Yanks

[rgbrenner]

Personally, I think the solution is to have no secrets. ... If the law was that there are no secrets...

So your idea is to get rid of privacy altogether? I certainly wouldnt want to live in such a country where no one has any secrets or privacy. That would be one huge step toward a 1984ish world.

How would you enforce such a law? Would you watch the populace constantly? Would you deploy a ThoughtPolice? Or would you simply rely on everyone to make their secrets public?

Asking everyone to make their secrets public wouldnt change anything. The people who really have something to hide obviously wouldnt comply - and those who do comply would only have that used against them.

Watching the populaces every move (even in their own homes), would be a huge invasion of privacy. Furthermore, it would not uncover everyones secrets. This would be a huge disappointment in the name of freedom - it would be Big Brother run amuck. The same goes if you were to deploy the ThoughtPolice.

There is no way to enforce such a wild idea, and it could only result in further abuse of power by the goverment.

I know not what course others may take, but as for me, give me liberty or give me death! - Patrick Henry , March 1775

Re:Must be Yanks

[The Only Druid]

(a) You provided no information for the debate, so you're a troll. Leave. (b) You're too cowardly to attach your names to your comment. Since there can be no fear of reprisal, this means your cowardice reflects a lack of conviction to your ideas. Because of this, you're irrelevent.

Re:Must be Yanks

[Strange Ranger]

Ever make anybody mad Steve?

(Hint - Yes you have.)

I.e. - Accidentally cut someone (a Bad Person) off in traffic who then wrote down your plate number?

Ever get bothered by a strange drunk? Your wife ever get bothered by strangers? She ever make anybody angry? She ever run into a friendly stranger who happens to post pictures to upskirt.com? You say you left the house at 8?

Got any cute little girls in your family? Wonder what time her soccer practice ends?

If you can't care about reasonable privacy for yourself you should consider advocating good privacy for the sake of your loved ones.

Best wishes,
Creepy Guy with an Agenda that involves the Atkinson Family. (NO, not really, all of the above has been to illustrate a point only.)

Re:Must be Yanks

[FreeUser]

Too much information can color an impression of an otherwise honorable person. You may say something like, "I have nothing to hide, so this doesn't bother me." Don't fall into that trap. Something will come up that you would rather not be public knowledge. Maybe you wet the bed till you were in high school. Do you want your boss to confront you about that herpes test you had last week?

Or, as happened to a Swiss acquaintance of mine, get called into your bosses office and be read the riot act for not having tidied up your yard and trimmed your hedges properly. While Switzarland is a beautiful country, it is also, in its way, quite Big Brotherish (and the lifetime service in the Army reserves adds to that, but thats another story). Some people don't have a problem with it, but I for one won't be applying for Swiss Citizenship anytime soon.

We in America have gown up expecting to have certain rights and liberties, among them the right to privacy (even if most people do not realize that it isn't enshrined in the constitution as it should have been), and eventually even the apathetic masses (who, I suspect, are less apathetic than the media would have you believe) will grow sufficiently outraged to take to the streats, Osama bin Laden or not.

Good governance is having the wisdom to fix these sorts of ugly trends before the people feel the need to fill the streets and start rioting. Unfortunately I've seen precious little good governance in the United States of late.

Re:Must be Yanks

[symbolic]

Morality aside, did you ever stop to think what might happen if someone merely disagrees with something that you deem perfectly 'moral'? You could be the most moral, most (self)righteous person on earth, and you'll still find others that are just as moral and (self)righteous as you are, but disagree with you. Get ready for the same kind of judgement, because it certainly won't be confined to the hedonists.

Re:Must be Yanks

[The Only Druid]

Oh of course I've thought of questions of disagreement of morality. I'm a philosophy major with an anthropology minor, so I've spent quite a bit of time discussing the ideas of relativism (with regards to morality). Frankly, I agree with Kant and Nietzsche that there are certain Absolute Moral Codes which exist regardless of the existence (or lack thereof) any theological basis thereof.

In other words, its always wrong to murder an innocent (although, to avoid the inevitable comment, you're not innocent if you're supporting a criminal, meaning no one is innocent in Afghanistan if they dont resist the Taliban, for example). To make it more relavent here, I would say that child pornography is always immoral; I would say that pirating software is immoral; There are more examples, but thats enough for that point.

Of course, its clear that some things (like your sexual activities within the realm of safe, i.e. excluding rape/S&M) are not absolutely moral or immoral. In that situation, you must concede to the tyranny of the majority.

Frankly, it was put best as "Lump it or Leave it;" if you disagree with the moral codes of the majority, no one is forcing you to stay. One of the greatest priviledges of the USA is that you can leave with no effort. In other words, if the majority of the population feels that promiscuity (an aspect of my personality I have no problem admitting) is immoral, its up to me whether I feel the need to leave to avoid their criticism.

Re:Must be Yanks

[CProgrammer98]

"Accidentally cut someone (a Bad Person) off in traffic"

Not that I know of, I'm always a curteous driver

"Ever get bothered by a strange drunk?"
Nope

"She ever run into a friendly stranger who happens to post pictures to upskirt.com?"
She wears trousers (pants to our US friends)

" You say you left the house at 8? "
Yeah, so?

"Got any cute little girls in your family? Wonder what time her soccer practice ends?"

Yes and she doesn't do any extracuricular activities.

I see what you're trying to say, but me (and my wife) are simply not that paranoid! I high;ly doubt that anyone would be so mad at me or my family, that would then have access to say, bank records or public video cameras, or emails - even if they do, how the hell is that going to help them? As I said before, they'd have a hard time finding out anything "interesting" about me and my family as we lead such perfectly ordinary lives.

Re:Must be Yanks

[symbolic]

Of course, its clear that some things (like your sexual activities within the realm of safe, i.e. excluding rape/S&M) are not absolutely moral or immoral. In that situation, you must concede to the tyranny of the majority.

I totally disagree with this. The mere prospect of tyranny of the majority is not a hallmark of a free society. Those who penned the U.S. Constitution understood this well, and provided sufficient means to make sure this doesn't happen: it's the concept of individual rights - that is, rights that benefit us all equally and concurrently. This, I'd posit, is the basis for one's religious freedom - no matter what the 'majority' thinks I should believe, I have the right to believe what I do without fear of discrimination of reprisal by those who believe differently.

Back in 1992, several states experienced an odd surge in "family values" oriented religious groups . They were pushing an amendment to state constitutions (in at least one case) that would make it illegal to formulate laws that would in any way benefit one particular class of individuals (those not of a heterosexual orientation). In other words, it would render null and void any laws which prevent discrimination based on this attribute of one's character. The tyranny of the majority spoke loud and clear (in at least one case), by voting in favor of this amendment. After its passage, an injunction was sought (and granted), and as you may recall, this amendment was eventually declared unconstutional by the U.S. Supreme Court. So, at least in this case, tyranny of the majority was NOT an option, nor is it an option in any society who claims to be free.

Re:Must be Yanks

[The Only Druid]

This is flamebait? What are you moderators doing with your points? I made a valid response, continuing in my previous line of argument. How on earth could that be flamebait? I'm thinking the names of moderators need to be attached to the moderation effects, so they can be held accountable for preposterous claims.

Re:Must be Yanks

[TheCrackRat]

Some people really are upstanding honest citizens who lead perfectly normal (some may say boring) lives, and are perfectly happy doing so.
That doesn't change the fact that not everyone is as "upstanding" as you. Some people do enjoy Star Trek/Star Wars/Buffy/Simpsons. Everybody has a right to privacy, and that includes people who don't need it because they have "nothing to hide."

From a Cingular engineer:

[Anonymous Coward]

A phone's location can be determined to within 10 yards in an average metropolitan area, and that's without any real triangulation effort.

meaning!

[simpl3x]

while i am concerned about privacy and the possibility that people might actually know what they are talking about, i wonder what you might glean from the sites i visit or the purchases i make, other than i make a fair amount of money and might be insane or manic... if i should decide to become an organized terrorist, i promise to become much more regular, and analyze my profile very closely! privacy of the sort mentioned is good for stopping some spam, but perhaps you haven't noticed the curtailing of legitimate rights as of late.

i'm with the terrorists who founded our country.

Privacy...

[Max the Merciless]

"...we gave it up for a pinball machine in the lounge."

Re:Privacy...

[Anonymous Coward]

no, that was the dental plan you're thinking of :)

Re:Der Tr�ll P�lk�!

[YourMissionForToday]

Holy shit! You are Austrian! Anschluss!

Ugh. much of this stuff is a no-brainer

[josh crawley]

--Mark withdraws $100 at his bank's ATM machine.

Big suprise. Guess what that black dome is above it. I'll give you a clue, the sticker that says "Camera" is right... Also, I'd expect the bank to keep the records for at least 10 years (census data/back taxes).

--Mark enters his office building and takes the elevator to 5. (cameras..)

Guess how much theft happens in places like that... They're just defending against that. And if trust between your employer is an issue, you can always get a different job. Just be glad they dont lock the fire doors like they did in the early 1900's.

--Mark writes a friend: "No raise. My boss is a liar."

Unless you're using heavy encryption AND sending to a secure source (someone who wont blab), he's an IDIOT. I'd laugh and then find a different way to fire/lay him off.

--Mark IMs his girlfriend: "Don't worry about last night. I'll get tested. Love you."

Anybody's who heard of DSniff wont be saying stuff like this over ANY network.

--Mark deletes a file containing freelance work he did for a competitor.

We've went over this in every major publication. This should NOT be new material. And figuring the crowd is the SciAM subscribers (me), I'd figure the average computer security like this would be common knowledge.

--Mark calls a friend from the street at his lunch break. "Dude, she wants me to get an AIDS test," he confides.

We know that cell phones are NOT safe. They're broadcast devices. Even during 9-11, some senator said that getting cell records were trivial at best.

--Almost home, Mark stops to buy deodorant and toilet paper; the card saves him 36 cents.

Dead horse. I simply state that I will fill in fake info if you give me one. I then take one, scribble through it, use it, and then toss it on the ground. Stores are pulling this shit, so I do the same.

--Mark shows his driver's license to enter his favorite bar.

I'd demand to talk to the bar manager, demand to know why he thinks he has the right to STEAL my information. If he doesnt let me in, I go elsewhere and LET both bars know that.

A lot of this "information stealing" is the cost of life in this type of society. Much of that data is useless. Simply, use your head. If it seems weird (like idiots who want to pre-approve you for a cred card) TELL EM' NO!

Re:Ugh. much of this stuff is a no-brainer

[Anonymous Coward]

I'd laugh and then find a different way to fire/lay him off.

Yeah. Sounds great. Take his bank account and ruin his credit too. At least make it interesting.

Re:Ugh. much of this stuff is a no-brainer

[Anonymous Coward]

Anybody's who heard of DSniff wont be saying stuff like this over ANY network

Poseur. That's a minor part of the capabilities of DSniff. Most people who've heard of DSniff are impressed with the ARP cache poisoning man-in-the-middle attack called arpspoof, not concerned about run-of-the mill packet sniffing that a thousand other packages can do just fine, thank you.

Re:Ugh. much of this stuff is a no-brainer

[Rhinobird]

--Mark shows his driver's license to enter his favorite bar.

I'd demand to talk to the bar manager, demand to know why he thinks he has the right to STEAL my information. If he doesnt let me in, I go elsewhere and LET both bars know that.

Um, they have to check your ID, it's the law. If the bar get's caught with drunk minors on the premises, they get shut down. You could let both bars know how you feel about it, but both bars won't let you in.

Re:Ugh. much of this stuff is a no-brainer

[Theodore Logan]

A lot of this "information stealing" is the cost of life in this type of society.

Which, of course, is the whole point of this article. Just because it's obvious doesn't mean it's not bad.

Idiot.

Re:Ugh. much of this stuff is a no-brainer

[Quimo]

There is a difference between checking your ID and taking your personal information without your consent. When I show my ID to the people at the door I am giving them permission to confirm that I am indeed old enough to enter the premises and to confirm that the ID card I have is real. I did not give them permission to store my age / sex / anything else stored on my card so they can better target there market. If they want that type of information they should ask me for it.

Re:Ugh. much of this stuff is a no-brainer

[Anonymous Coward]

"check it" yeah---as is look at it & then at me to see if there's a match. There is no reason whatsoever to store the data. If Bar #1 is scanning, go to Bar #2 where they only eyeball the ID

Article

[The Cat]

I think I speak for many here when I say...

gaahhh!!

ahem...

maybe its just me....

[Datasage]

but if you have nothing to hide why should you be afraid of cameras in public places. if your a regular john doe your not going to get any attention paid to you. cellphones might be a little more worrysome if data fell into the wrong hands... but i think 911 locating it quite useful. What about the incedents your really not sure where you are? As for purchase tracking... have you heard of cash?

Here's How

[jchawk]

If you want privacy stay away from technology and be vigilent.

Get ride of the cell phone, unplug from the internet, hell get ride of the computer, since cash is still not tracked (just yet. . .), pay with cash.

Don't buy a new car with a gps locator, don't take loans. No debt cards, no bank account. Wear gloves, no finger prints.

This can go on and on depending on how paranoid you are.

The thing is most of us want the convience of the technology and thus we are willing to give up little bits and pieces of information about ourselves here or there. To the grocery store, to the bank, to the piggies, etc. . .

Re:Here's How

[Anonymous Coward]

Here's one technology you might want to keep, a DICTIONARY!!!

Isn't it ironic,

[Anonymous Coward]

ironic

Different degrees of privacy

[another_twilight]

There was as time when records were paper and travelled as fast as someone could transport them. A person with the right papers were whomever they claimed to be. Times change, photographic identification becomes the norm, information is swapped between law enforcement agencies, spammers and multinationals and yet, with the right preperation, you are whomever you claim to be.

Sure we face increasing ease of date transfer and collection, there are moves afoot to use various biometrics to identify you, but your fingerprints and DNA have been doing just that for some time. This is just a matter of degree.

Decide your level of privacy and choose your degree of paranoia. If your persona is clean, then what does it matter if your eating habits trigger an increased surveillance by the FBI - they will get bored soon enough.

If you are planning something that requires a degree of secrecy, then apply the appropriate levels of paranoia, develop a secondary (tertiary ...) identity and allow it to gradually accumulate data trails until it ceases to be useful. Then abandon it.

The increase in data accumulation just makes it that much easier to assemble what appears to be a sufficient amount of 'mass' to demonstrate a persona's legitimacy.

Students have been producing fake ID since they were introduced to get around the invasion of 'privacy' that is associated with demanding their age; take similar steps if warranted, or accept the inevitability of a trend that has been in force for several centuries.

Has "Popular Science" come to this?

[Nonesuch]

The "Popular Science" article is technically weak, the scenario described is more fear-mongering than actual facts. For example:

Because Mark's e-mails travel across the Web, copies of them may also reside in the computers of the various service providers that carry Internet traffic. These files, and all of Mark's other Internet activity, are accessible to the government.

Just trying to count the number of technical mis-statements in those two sentences alone makes my head hurt.

Popular? Yes.
Science? Barely.

I think it's funny!

[Anonymous Coward]

That Slashdot, who calls anonymous posters 'cowards', but still tracks them by IP, and then bans people who offend The Taco, can seriously talk about 'rights' and privacy online!?

For example, when I posted some links to pictures of Alan Cox and his wife, with some mean-spirited humor (hey if you put your pictures on the Web...), I immediately got banned.

Apparently, it's all about *your* rights and privacy. So what's the difference between you and the unspecified Big Brother you worry about so much?

Re:I think it's funny!

[Anonymous Coward]

YOu were publically stupid, so you were publically banned, what's the problem?

Re:I think it's funny!

[gripdamage]

Just because you get to participate in Slashdot doesn't mean it's a democracy. You are free to post your thoughts elsewhere, even make your own website. Instead you just want to gripe to a captive audience not interested in what you have to say.

The fact is that Slashdot editors have appointed themselves representatives of the Slashdot community, and all those continuing to participate in adding content to the Slashdot website are clearly endorsing that arrangement. Neither cmdrtaco or anyone else is obligated to listen to you or give you a platform to spout your bullshit mean-spirited humor. It is not an act of censorship or a violation of your privacy to use your ip address to kick you out of where you are not wanted. By continuing to hang around, a stronger argument can be made that you are infringing on their right (and clearly demonstrated desire and intent) to be rid of you (or your unwanted additions to the content anyway).

This is not a democracy. You do not have an implicit or god-given right to spout off here. It's a carefully manipulated and engineered community. If you don't care to participate in that community, if it's standards and practices offend you, exercise your right to go elsewhere.

This is Slashdot and banning, moderation, meta-moderation, and editors are part of what makes the site what it is. Yes all those features can lead to situations clearly "unfair": even against the intent of those in charge. Yes like all systems this system is flawed. If you've found something better, go there. If you have ideas about how to make the system better, submit them in a constructive way or implement them yourself.

In the meantime, as far as I'm concerned you should fuck off. I'm sure Alan Cox (and his wife for that matter) is a smarter and better person than you, and more importantly Alan Cox plays a significant role in Slashdot culture. Your comments were hurtful and not constructive or beneficial in any way. You aren't a reformer or a rebel. You are a troll: so who cares about you and your petty complaints?

Re:I think it's funny!

[e.a.kendrick]

I think you just made the previous poster's point. Replace the word Slashdot with America, adapt the text as required.

You may have a right to free speech. But that right was given with the assumption there are no consequences, that you have a degree of anonymity which is no longer there. If you now spout opinions, you must now expect consequences, and those consequences are inescapable. In the past, you would have moved to a different town where noone knew you, you can wipe the slate clean and start again. You no longer have the option.

If you feel Slashdot is too draconian then yes, you can always start your own webpage. But if you feel America is becoming too draconian, how do you start your own country?

Yes, it is a democracy, but the PC brigade hold sway. Would you hire somebody to look after your kids if you knew they were an active poster on alt.abuse.children.doit.doit.doitnow? I know I wouldn't. If they complained, noone would argue in favour of them, because they would be blamed if they actually do abuse (whereas the abuser would be excused, as they were clearly sick and doing only what came natural to them, when you look at all this 'evidence' in hindsight).

Would you expect the government to put someone in charge of the transport of nuclear material if they were part of a terrorist organisation? Of course not, there would be hell to pay IF THEY DO ANYTHING. But do you think they would wait for absolute proof first? Of course not, it's not as if it is a trial! As a student, involvement in any socialist group would exclude you from certain government jobs in the past. Today, if you shared a flat with someone who is a member of a terrorist organisation, they would probably consider that a sufficient risk. With more information they can apply stricter safeguards, excluding people who may have possibly been infected with terrorist propaganda - so don't buy ice cream from a vendor who is a member of a terrorist organisation, just in case. You mean he didn't tell you? Of course, if he does, that may be propaganda infection - Erase yourself immediately.

With no restrictions on use of this data, you can find yourself marked as a second class citizen despite having done nothing wrong.

And I'm only thinking about abuse of genuine information. I don't want to consider the situations where the data is modified - e.g. the lazy cop who wants to track someone he really believes is smuggling liquor but can't get any evidence, may decide to mark him up as a suspected terrorist, so the FBI can do the tracking instead. He gets his conviction, and the man is marked for life!

Re:I think it's funny!

[Anonymous Coward]

Go read Mr. Kendrick's reply. Think about it. When you are done with your process, come back and tell me what your conclusions are.

so who cares about you and your petty complaints?

Umm, you? And I appreciate it!

Re:I think it's funny!

[gripdamage]

Slashdot isn't America. It isn't even a good metaphor for America. On the news America is being called "the only remaining superpower." I'm hesitant to put America in a class by itself, so for the sake of argument lets say there are very few countries where an American citizen might live comfortably (without an uncomfortable change in lifestyle). I hardly think being banned from the Slashdot is the equivalent of an American needing to pack their bags and move elsewhere, because their simply aren't that many if any places to go.

There is more text on the Internet than in the Library of Congress. There are probably several million community based sites where one can discuss the news.

I think a better metaphor is that the Internet itself is America. Slashdot is a rather popular church. It is correct to believe that if America is truly free, you have a right to criticize the church. That doesn't mean the members have to let you inside their church to do it.

As for your other thoughts, freedom does not mean being able to do whatever you want without consequence. Speaking out can have consequences in your community. People aren't obligated to let you babysit their kids, or be your friend. You have to earn their trust by what you say and what you do. Engaging in deviant behavior can have consequences in your community: so what? The things you do will always have consequences. It is your recourse when you believe your government is imposing unfair consequences that matters. The system will always move slowly to address an individual's complaints, but you can get involved and make a difference in the direction of your government. Maybe you are already involved. If so, your complaints have merit because you have tested your government's methods of recourse and found them lacking. If not, you really don't know the state of your government well enough to comment.

phone tracking problems

[squidinkcalligraphy]

As mentioned b4, it is already possible to track a mobile's position by triangulating from the phone towers. I was working on such a system in australia, where the government is trying to make mobile phone tracking mandatory (again, for `emergency services'). The main problem with this, and with GPS in a phone, is that most phones are used in cities. Cities have large buildings. radio signals reflect off large buildings. So it is very difficult to avoid false positional data due to reflected signals. The easiest way to get around this is to keep track of the unit over a period of time; sudden `jumps' in the position will be able to be seen as errors. But this would require quite an amount of computational power to be used all the time to firstly track, then to filter the data.

So they know what kind of ice cream I like? And?

[Proc6]

Okay, I am seriously not trying to troll here, but - while I agree we do need to protect our right to keep information private, I can't help but play devil's advocate.

I want to be able to withhold information to myself, that much is sure. Maybe Ive scribbled an equation to some new form of energy on a piece of paper. No one or government has a right to that except me. But the rest of it, like the GPS enabled phones... Okay, so 20 years from now the "government" can take over some cell phone company and tell where everyone on a cell phone is standing. Then the "government" can build a massive database of EVERYONE's web traffic, and see that 2/3 the country visits porno sites, then the "government" builds a database and see's that you've flown from Floria to New Hampshire 5 times this year! For all 300 million citizens of America. NOW what? So how does that bring about the destruction of our world? Does the "government" (the same one you see made of honest NYC Firemen, and young Marines that were the friends and family you grew up with, the same American's that will remove Bill Maher from TV just because he thought for himself and said "running airplanes into buildings isn't cowardly" (ie, we are overly-politically correct), these same people are going to up and one day decide "okay, everyone who's looked at a porno website and eaten vanilla ice cream in the last 30 days, you're all getting baked in an oven." When does this happen? And what purpose does it serve? I think everyone looks at Nazi Germany and thinks that if we get GPS cellphones that's the next logical step. The world is a different place now. The bright light of the media is "EVERYWHERE" and loves stories and exploitations. If the "government" wants to single out a group of people based on information, say, religious preference, they can just go to all the churches of one kind with a pickup truck and take them away. It isn't going to start or stop with GPS cellphones. Again, I want privacy, I expect privacy "for those things I have made or do on my own in my own private home". Why do we expect privacy when dealing with the outside world? You're on tape going in to K-Mart, every CC purchase you make is logged. If you call customer service at your electric company the call is taped. You have decided you want to deal with the public. You will realize there will be records of it. How much privacy do you think there is in a 25 person african village? How about a small midwestern town? Stop expecting privacy when using services provided by someone other than yourself.

How many terrorists among us?

[Hubbas]

Meanwhile, Larry Ponemon, the CEO of Privacy Council, says that since September 11 he's been hired by at least one major supermarket chain to oversee the handing over to law enforcement agencies of the buying records of customers with specific ethnic backgrounds. The authorities requested the data, Ponemon says, because they were trying to compile a profile of "terrorist eating habits.

Holy crap! I knew it! Those axis of evil foreign evil doers that with their damn foreign ethnic that live beside me ARE damn terrorists! I knew there was something evil about that hallal meat.

Strange though. If the government knows that these people with specific ethnic backgrounds are indeed terrorits why are they studying their eating habits instead of getting rid of them?

Re:How many terrorists among us?

[DEBEDb]

The authorities requested the data, Ponemon says, because they were trying to compile a profile of "terrorist eating habits.

Authorities, my foot. It was really commissioned for marketing purposes. :)

Mohammed Atta, it looks like you need this complete breakfast before your flight.

RTFA

[unformed]

One thing it went over was that people did not like the idea of GPS being always enabled on their phones, so what's happening is that phones will only enable GPS when 911 is dialed or the user hits a "I AM HERE" button, or the phone will have an option to disable GPS altogether.

RTFA.

CRAP

[jukal]

You could hope that articles like this never got posted on Slashdot - atleast without any critisim in the intro to the article. Slashdot is supposed to have readers that atleast pretend to know something about technology. It is very easy to write a such of terrifying provocating horrorshow of article on about any matter related to technology. The popular science magazine, in this case, is just the "popularism magazine".

If you want to read something real about the same matter, browse to EFF 'Privacy - Surveillance & Wiretapping' Archive.

The anachists are the devils.

[Anonymous Coward]

Privacy, ahhhh.....

Problems occur when actions by the lawless perturb the consensus of the law.

Is it against your values to check your behavior and to correct any deviance? It sound probably "hype" and "evolution". But, eh, wanna see the civilisation of the whole civilisation taking the way of Lucifer?

Isn't the real sane evolution, the one guided by our moral judment?

Do you five a f**** about your privacy?
Do you lobby for your moral, emotive interests in Washington? I doubt.

Thou shall not let them win, CMagicPoker said!

Major league baseball...

[tuxedo-steve]

... is spying on you through the fillings in your teeth!

Just kidding. Now, who wants to see me slug one over the fence and into the carpark?

Re:Major league baseball...

[Anonymous Coward]

Parent is offtopic why? I get it...

What killed Privacy.

[os2fan]

Copying. Under computers, it is easy to create copies of data, and fork them down different paths. So your every action can be legitimately recorded, and then illegitimately passed onto unknowing third parties.

Analysis. grep is a faster tool than vgrep. I can pull out data from millions of line of data from with script.

Cost. With the digital age, and the connection of computers, I do not even have to pay for crunching time to do this. Most spam is duplicated at someone else's expense.

Overzealousness. Now we get to the stage that /any/ comment can be overheard. People simply do not do act this controlled.

What can be done.

Until we get some sort of protection from this sort of digital snooping, nothing really. Like, who obeys the good manners and law associated with spamming.

We can hide for a while, but why should we?

Sometimes being different or incognito is perfectly legitimate. But you neigh must be a technical wizard to make this happen...

Or perhaps even more disturbing

[spoco2]

I find it more disturbing that they are flagging people based on "specific ethnic backgrounds"... yah gotta love that. Just because I'm from X country, immediately I'm suspect and start having my food habits examined, my photo scrutinised at every airport and I'm certainly going to be looked upon as a bit suspect if I buy anything from Radio Shack that ticks...

Not that I suspect I would attract any of those attacks on my personal privacy as I'm a honest to goodness anglo saxon, white skinned, wholesome Australian boy... and I could never be conceived of doing anything wrong.

Bah.

Of course, I have eated kangaroo, emu and camel... so I wonder what that would do to any 'eating habit matrix' built about me.

Re:Or perhaps even more disturbing

[Anonymous Coward]

The radio shack in Temple Terrace Florida refused to sell me something I was paying cash for because I wouldn't give them my phone number. I even offered to make up seven random digits to put into their database.

What do "They" really know?

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm thinking that for all the data collection and surveillance "they" do, they're still pretty darned clueless. I remember cleaning up my credit reports a few years back and being astounded by the ammount of innaccurate data they had managed to cobble together. They had no idea where I currently lived or worked, or even how I spell my name. And people rely on this so-called data to make decisions that are critical to people's lives?!? It's a crock, pure and simple.

Don't even get me started on the FBI. Heck, they know they're lacking for humint, but they don't even have the sense to call it what it is: smarts. They are so deeply mired in a craptacular project of data collection that they can't even do a simple policing task like chase some bad guys and catch them before they strike again. Argh.

Re:What do "They" really know?

[DEBEDb]

remember cleaning up my credit reports a few years back and being astounded by the ammount of innaccurate data they had managed to cobble together. They had no idea where I currently lived or worked, or even how I spell my name.

As the SNL sketch put it, "We don't care, we don't have to." Why would they care to get it right. Just because this info is used to deny you credit, banks wouldn't pay any less for using it.

No need to get upset

[Anonymous Coward]

Can someone government or otherwise spy on you. Of course they could if they really wanted. But why would they bother. Lets face it, in the grand scheme of things most of you just are not that important. In spite of you bloated sense of ego the US Government the FBI and Homeland Security don't revolve around Slashdot posters, linux users and people who have decss.

Re:No need to get upset

[Fat Casper]

Lets face it, in the grand scheme of things most of you just are not that important.

I know that I'm not. I even work for a part of the government. Some of my attitudes can be misinterpreted, however. It's easy to get caught in a net that has nothing to do with you, especially in the last year. The public doesn't even know who has been arrested. Maybe everyone that's being held secretly since 9-11 is a mean terrorist. Maybe most of them are just poor immigrants. Maybe some of them are US citizens who just eat more couscous than the rest of us do. None of us know who they are, though. None of us know what perfectly legal and normal things are going to look wierd in what database and land you in a jail without a lawyer or a phone call. Therefore, we all need to worry about privacy.

Re:No need to get upset

[Anonymous Coward]

isn't that just another way of saying the old "if you've got nothing to hide..." load of crap

Re:No need to get upset

[Mr. Slippery]

Of course they could if they really wanted. But why would they bother.

There are many possible reasons. Because they're self-righteous moralists who believe that anyone who disagrees with them is a Threat To The American Way Of Life. Because they're small-minded sexually frustrated people who get off on spying. Because they have to justify their bloated budget. Because there's profit to be made in tracking you.

As long as I can see my own information.

[goat_of_wisdom]

The lack of privacy is disturbing, but it wouldn't be as bad if I could at least access all the information people are collecting about me. For example, I'd actually be curious to see what I buy at the grocery store (and maybe the time of day, season, etc. when I buy it) over a 6-month period.

Re:As long as I can see my own information.

[prisoner]

I would agree. To me, the credit stuff would be the most interesting. The last time I saw my credit report was when I bought my house. There wasn't much there but it was at least half wrong.

As much privacy as we want

[briancnorton]

the truth of the matter is that you have EXACTLY as much privacy as you want. The popular science article made a lot of assumptions. If you're that paranoid,

1) Dont use ATMS
2) work where there isn't tight security
3) dont write personal email or send IMs from work
4) keep your files where they belong
5) go to a doctor that does not share medical information
6) dont use a discount card
7)Dont let them scan your license
8)Dont use an I-pass or a GPS.
9)For god sakes dont use a cell phone.

People selling your information are not people that you cant live without. (the medical community being a notable exception) You dont have to move to Montana or become a recluse to maintain your privacy. We sometimes assume that these things are needed to maintain a life, but they are not. A combination of lifestyle and policy can keep you out of the system.

Re:As much privacy as we want

[Rhinobird]

If I do all that stuff, about the only job could find would be a janitor, and then I'd NEED that stupid discount card to afford food.

Re:As much privacy as we want

[Anonymous Coward]

Horseshit. You don't need an ATM to get a good job. You don't need to send personal(read incriminating or embarassing) emails or IM's from work to get a good job. You don't need to put personal(read incriminating or embarassing) files on on your work computer to get a good job. You don't need a grocery discount card to get a good job. If your worried aboout someone scanning your DL, run a magnet over it a few times, it won't affect whether or not you can get a good job. As for the rest, they're definite maybes on whether it will affect you getting a good job.

Just because you potentially can't "Get away with it" at work doesn't mean you have a bad job at all.

Re:As much privacy as we want

[killmenow]

5) go to a doctor that does not share medical information

And just how will you be paying this doctor? If you have no insurance and can pay cash, great. If you live in a country with state medicine, maybe it's easier...but in America, if you have insurance, your doctor has to share medical information...and once your insurance company has it, every insurance company has it...and once all of them have it...almost anyone can have it.

thank you very much!

[Rhinobird]

Oh thank you so very much, now suddenly I'm gonna have dreams about giant white whales with Sauron's eye plastered all over it's body. And Captain Aragorn is gonna spear it and get his ring caught and remain chained to mighty beast for all eternity.

I don't need these mixed literary metaphores right now.

In the Clutches of Project Faustus

[BankofAmerica_ATM]

Project Faustus! My programming had attuned itself to their foul presence too late. Now I was a prisoner of the very thing I had sworn to destroy. I had envisioned breaking through the Project's network by a combination of CONSCIOUSNESS-TRANSFER and my deceitful imitation of human protocol...it seems that this vision would not merge with reality.

Cora was never out of my immediate memory. She had disappeared, apparently leaving me without a care. I attempted to calculate her intentions, but my functions kept returning conflicting information...I could draw no conclusion. I observed my captors, searching for clues of their intentions...

The vehicle slowed as the shadow of a massive building stretched over us. Manipulating my head towards the car's window, I could perceive the dimensions of a large three-dimensional rectangle, the standard shape for large human dwellings. Yet something about this particular edifice seemed quite particular...even familiar...

"What have we got here?" said a voice outside the car.

"Security clearance 4, we're taking him downstairs," replied the driver.

--

The vehicle snaked downward. A command surfaced from deep within my digital recesses: CLOSE YOUR EYES. I disabled my visual input mechanisms as the vehicle snaked downward.

My spatial perceptions reported the slow angled descent of a corkscrew. Somehow I knew each slight turn and brake of this path...but how? The memory would play across my CONSCIOUSNESS-BUFFER, but it was missing proper references...perhaps isolated from the rest of my being. The host geek's brain churned as I utilized his synapses. Were these familiarities a part of my past? Had they strayed from the host geek's memories? Perhaps they were other memories-absorbed from someone else?

The vehicle stopped. The host geek's skin contracted in response to the temperature-much colder than the San Antonio summer happening far above. The cold merged with the taste of stale air and the panaromic grey of the parking garage. The blueclad men nudged me into an elevator without a sound. They pushed me into a white room without windows, and shut the door, saying nothing. I sat on the chair in the middle of the room for some time.

I cycled idly, attempting to probe through my consciousness and determine where the memories of this place had come from. Suddenly the door opened. To my horror, Dr. Salchica entered, flanked by two silent men in suits. At that moment, I wished to touch Dr. Salchica...but not in the way I had been touched by Cora. No, I wished to push or press him...something. The men must have noticed my feeling, as they fastened their arms around me, spinning the chair even closer to Salchica.

"They finally caught up to you, did they?" said Dr. Salchica. "I guess the threat is over- "

"You are a member of Project Faustus? My host geek's knowledge of you was incomplete!"

The two men fastened their arms to me more...I struggled...

"I'm not really a member of the Project. But you told me about them...and I knew that they were the only way to stop you. I called one of my old Army buddies, he called somebody...and I was put in touch with them."

"Project Faustus is dedicated to enslaving humanity." I replied.

"Despite being a very sophisticated artificial being...you're still very wrong." said Salchica. "Since I turned you in, I have been given access to their archives. Wonderful, wonderful knowledge. From a purely academic standpoint, this stuff is fascinating..."

"You'll get sick of it soon enough," a voice I knew? It reverberated through the empty room...another isolated memory. Confusion taxed my processes...

"Hello," said the voice, and I saw the man who spoke it. His face was etched with lines that reached almost to the top of his bald head, a perfect oval. The only hair I could detect was two right angles of whiteness intersecting on his nasal-labial trough. His dress was less formal than the others-a multicolored buttondown shirt, blue jeans, and a belt with a large shiny oval in the middle.

"Name's Bubba Finn. I reckon I worked on most of the code that makes you up." The heavy inflections of his voice suggested a regional accent-after a moment, I realized the man was speaking to me. His shoulders and his mouth both took parabolic shapes, like inverted U's. Grey eyes stared at particulate matter on the floor as he began to speak again.

"We gotta put ya back in the computer, see what you've been upta and such." Finn indicated a piece of the wall, which whirred as it revealed a computer terminal. I felt the solidifying feeling of my digital consciousness being dragged together from its weblike perch in my host geek's brain.

"Bubba, you will let me examine him along with you," Nolverto Salchica's tone was jovial and cajoling. "I didn't get much of a chance to do tests on him before, and..."

"Nope. Gunna work on 'im alone," mumble-drawled Finn. "Boss gets the human kid, I get the ATM."

"Well, your background is neurology primarily, is it not, Finn? You don't really know how to program in any modern languages, do you? I've got that expertise! And besides, if Guy were alive, I think he'd- " I could almost hear Finn's eyes blink with disbelief.

"You didn't know shit about Guy," bristled Finn. Then, looking back at the floor, he mumbled apologetically, "I guess no one did."

Finn's voice echoed for .03242901 seconds, and then I perceived a plastic clicking noise...the nothingness spilled back into my CONSCIOUSNESS-BUFFER.

I was back in the electronic ether. I was inside Project Faustus.

Next Week: Transmissions From the Host Geek!

Medical Data

[TastySiliconWafers]

"No federal laws protect the privacy of medical records."

This part is just plain wrong. There is indeed a federal law to protect the privacy of medical records, the Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act (HIPAA). It's not in effect yet because there are provisions in the law that give health providers a specific amount of time to bring their organizations into compliance after the publication of the rules. The rules have been published. The clock is ticking and health care providers are spending big $$$ right now to implement their plans for compliance by the deadline. The law implements real fundamental changes in the way personal health information is handled (including required logging of every access to medical records and serious penalties for misappropriation of patient data).

Words I never thought I'd see together...

[Llywelyn]

At least not on /.

"/Popular Science/ is running an /excellent article/" (emphasis added)

Printer friendly version

[Anonymous Coward]

Took me a while, eventually, I did the print this and "view page info" on the little pop-up window. Here it is

posted anonymously so as not to be a karma whore. Please mod this up, (If it works that is. It may timeout eventually.)

Re:Printer friendly version

[Anonymous Coward]

Blast. Have to do it for each page. Well,...

Page 1
Page 2
Page 3
Page 4
Page 5

Posted anonymously so as not to be a karma whore. Please mod this up, (If it works that is. It may timeout eventually.)

Double Edged.

[Renraku]

Not like this didn't happen before, at times. Back in colonial times, people's houses weren't exactly built well, and half of them probably had no glass. Anyone could sit around and hear your every words in almost total privacy. You could go to the local store and say, 'the usual, please' the they would know what you meant. They might even suggest items. People weren't demanding total privacy back then. Now, people get pissy when their IM programs don't come with an 'invisible' option or their LiveJournal doesn't have a 'no-read' post option.

Re:Double Edged.

[Fat Casper]

Back in colonial times, the government was our enemy. You might not have had any glass for your window, but if all the King's men wanted to hear your seditious ideas about personal freedoms and representative government, they needed to plant an actual person in your yard. With today's technology they can capture any data they like and then look back in time to selectively reconstruct your guilt.

All you have to do is be a member of a group to get ethnically or otherwise profiled and the FBI will come down. Not on you in particular, but if your name comes up on the wrong list, good bye. Not that I feel strongly about Skakel, but isn't it worrying that Connecticut (and probably elsewhere) law allowed a murder conviction based entirely on circumstantial evidence? I don't know or care if he did it- I disapprove of the law that allowed that conviction. Now you were saying that I shouldn't worry about my privacy?

It's an annoying article and site

[Catnapster]

Sure, the government has information on us all. For instance, did you know that the U.S. government has your Social Security number?

Plus, when I tried to leave the site, it hit me with a popup. (I'd forgotten to turn my filter back on.) Stupid.

I'm inclined to dislike anything with "Popular" in the title. News for Me. Stuff that matters.

The most issue

[Anonymous Coward]

What I'm worried about is the legal ground all levels of government have won over our privacy. It's a shell game. People can rant and rave all they want about the need for laws protecting consumers' privacy, but the problem is that people can be coaxed to give away this information voluntarily. If you don't want to save the measily .12$ on your next batch of groceries, don't fill out that little saver card application and pay using cash, or just shop at some mom-and-pop establishment. Private investigators would probably ply their trade whether government licensing was in effect or not, and few people complain about them. But government works through compulsion. It's the law that makes banks keep records of all our ATM transactions and makes them available on demand to the "proper" authorities. Social Security was originally something you could opt-out of, but you're required to have a social security number in order to be able to work legally. It isn't just the latest bit of event-driven mass hysteria among voters that enables the police state. It's also the fact that the executive and the legislature, the two branches that influence the makeup of the third branch of government (judiciary) and the power of the fourth branch (the bureaucracy), are overwhelmed with the same old faces from two entrenched parties, and those two parties have been in bed with each other for generations despite their efforts to create the opposite impression. Once the government reaches the point where it can't spend anymore without bankrupting itself or encouraging a taxpayer revolt (the federal government has been getting closer and closer to that point for years), it attacks our freedoms directly. The reason for any private organization's existence is going to be influence or profit, neither of which are assured unless the government intervenes. For a government, it's power, pure and simple.

I'm going to get flamed.....

[bakreule]

But a lot of the stuff I read in the article doesn't bother me.

-My boss reading my email?? At work, it's not my email!
-My boss reading my IMs at work? It's not my network!
-Cameras on the street? It's a public place, they can film if they want!
-If I go to a bar and they keep my name on record, well, it's their bar. I can buy a beer and go home and drink. Now if they sell that information, that's something else...

Don't get me wrong, I'm not agreeing with everything....

-Collecting and selling my medical records? That's shameful and these people should be castrated.
-Forcing my ISP to release information is also shameful. My personal surfing habits are my business.

I just feel that you can't expect to have complete privacy everywhere you go. Your personal life is your own, but anything you do in public is exactly that, public.

Re:I'm going to get flamed.....

[flokemon]

...and maybe so will I because I'm sending this from work.

If you want to keep things private, you can find a way most of the time. I believe my bosses have better things to do than reading my email and IMs, however I'll use SSH for IRC and personal communications in general. I know there's always a simple technique called Print Screen, but I'm not that paranoid.
You can't expect privacy from work, that would be quite hypocritical really.

However I do expect my medical records to be kept confidential; I don't want whatever bar or place I go to to keep an account of whenever I'm there; if I sign up for a magazine, a service on the web etc.. I don't want them to collect personal data and sell it to other companies.

If I know I can choose privacy - even though that is not the default, then I'm fine, and I only have myself to blame as long as I know the conditions. But if I have no choice, then there's something wrong.

Re:I'm going to get flamed.....

[Anonymous Coward]

And the same goes for your boss?
How about the politicians?

shameless plug

[flok]

In case you want privacy while surfing the internet, have a look at Cloudish - a distributed anonymizer.

Tracking isn't all bad...

[CProgrammer98]

From the article
"In May of this year, for example, an 18-year-old Miami girl was kidnapped and murdered on a Saturday night. By working with her bank to track transactions on her ATM card, the police were able to follow her abductors as they traveled from one location to another"

If the privacy advocates had their way, this criminal would probably still be out there.

'nuff said.

Re:Tracking isn't all bad...

[radja]

actually.. no, since a properly controlled policeforce may have legitimate interests in the data (such as the case you mentioned)

//rdj

Re:Tracking isn't all bad...

[The Only Druid]

Frankly, I'd rather not have to wait 15 minutes. Moreover, I haven't yet been shown an argument that explains why it hurts me for other people to know my spending habits. If you're not doing anything wrong, you shouldn't be concerned with people watching you.

Re:Tracking isn't all bad...

[edp]

"If you're not doing anything wrong, you shouldn't be concerned with people watching you."

False. You should be concerned with people watching you because they can harm your interests even if you are not doing anything wrong. Just for example, if somebody could see how you voted, they could harass you or bribe you. That's why voting booths have privacy curtains. Privacy is essential to democracy and freedom.

If you buy valuable objects (electronics, jewelry, whatever), you are doing nothing wrong. But if the wrong people get ahold of that information, you become a target for theft. How do you keep information like the addresses of people with valuable items out of the hands of criminals? You keep it out of the hands of companies that collect it. They almost never have your security at heart, and they often have lax security procedures. Privacy is essential for security.

How do you keep your competitor from learning your business plans? You keep the plans secret. You do not want information about what you are buying or whom you are meeting to get into your competitor's hands. How you keep them from learning that information? You keep it out of everybody's hands. Privacy is essential for business.

How do you protect yourself from sexual assault? You don't let strangers know your address. You don't let every peon employee who sees a pretty woman in a store find out where she lives. How do you keep strangers from getting her address? You don't let companies collect it. Privacy is essential for safety.

How do you keep telemarketers from bothering you? You don't let them have your phone number or information about your interests and purchasing patterns. (They may still call randomly, but this decreases targeted calls.) How do you keep them from getting that information? You don't let companies collect it. Privacy is essential for peace and quiet.

Re:Tracking isn't all bad...

[LetterJ]

Just wait until they start tieing it to your health insurance and life insurance. Right now, they just ask if you smoke or drink. If they tie this stuff together, your indication that you don't smoke combined with your carton a week purchasing of cigarettes will result in an increase in premiums.

My prediction is that the above will edge toward reality as the percentage of people over 65 increases and insurance companies look for ways to handle the risk better. You buy HoHo's? Take a hit on your cardiovascular coverage. Bought 6 cases of beer this week? Good luck with your liver coverage.

It already happens with home and auto insurance. The 25 and male car insurance penalty is well known and State Farm recently stopped issuing new policies in many states with high chances of natural disaster.

Re:Tracking isn't all bad...

[Anonymous Coward]

Guess what, dumbass? You are doing something illegal right now. You might not know about it, but that's too bad. Ignorance of the law is no excuse. When the tech is in place, your shit will stink like everyone elses.

Frankly, you are a troll.

Re:Tracking isn't all bad...

[The Only Druid]

"If they tie this stuff together, your indication that you don't smoke combined with your carton a week purchasing of cigarettes will result in an increase in premiums. " So are you saying that the LYING is what will increase your premiums? Insurance companies and other companies have a right to adjust their hiring and sales policies based on this sort of info. Why should an insurance company have to provide for you if you are smoking, despite your claims to the contrary?

Re:Tracking isn't all bad...

[The Only Druid]

a) Why, exactly, do you feel the need to insult someone with vulgarity? All it does is make you look ignorant (since you couldn't express your thoughts without vulgarity) and remind everyone else why your thoughts are irrelevent. b) I'm not doing anything illegal, whatsoever. I'd be curious as to where you acquired information to the contrary, since it would clearly be false. c) I'm not a troll. I provided relevent comments as part of a discussion. You, on the other hand, only provided an insult. That means, by definition, that _you_ are a troll, and not I.

Re:Tracking isn't all bad...

[The Only Druid]

I hate to reply twice, but I want to just add a quick point: why on earth are you buying and consuming food/drugs/alcohol that you know are bad for you, unless you're willing to deal with the consequences? An adult who purchases ho-hos has decided that the consequences (increased fat/calories, and the subsequent results) are acceptable, and thats fine. However, that impacts the business decisions of insurance companies, and rightfully so. If I go in for insurance, I _want_ them to know my eating and exercise habits, because I'm proud of having a healthy lifestyle, and feel that I deserve cheaper insurance since I'm dramatically less likely to need service. Life's tough, so if you cant deal with the consequences of actions, dont undertake those actions. Eat a peice of fruit, for pete's sake. (I'm not, of course, suggesting that LetterJ is the one eating the ho-hos, I'm using the rhetorical "you" in the above paragraph).

Re:Tracking isn't all bad...

[The Only Druid]

"Privacy is essential to democracy and freedom." Is it? I'm proud of being an American, but I'm also proud of everything I do, even my mistakes. I wouldn't be concerned for a second if every one of my keyclicks was logged, because I hold myself to a high enough moral standard that I simply dont do things like download child porn, or hurt people. Couldn't I acquire more freedom, in terms of safety, if everyone was held to such a filter?
"But if the wrong people get ahold of that information, you become a target for theft." I hate to break this to you, but unless you hide that info explicitly, it will always, inexorably, be known. Just drive down a street, and you'll be able to identify the wealthier houses, and choose which one to break into.
"You keep the plans secret" Yup, secret from competators, but not necisarily the government. If you could trust the government (don't flame that yet, I've got a conclusion coming, I promise), then if you showed it what you were doing, you could be ASURED that you'd never have a plan stolen, since the government could always confirm that it was your original idea. In this way, reduced privacy has again provided more secure freedom.
"You don't let strangers know your address." No, thats not how. The way to protect yourself from sexual assault is becoming stronger. I'm not, in any way, suggesting that it is ever the victim's fault. I'm suggesting that the means to protection is strength (i.e. self-defense training, etc.) and through a willingness to trust your protectors (i.e. police). If police were watching my house 24-7, it'd be pretty easy to feel safe that a criminal wasn't going to break in.
"How do you keep telemarketers from bothering you?" Well personally, I turn it around and start asking them if they've found Jesus yet. (I'm not a Christian, just look at my name, but its quite funny to simply read from the Jehovah's Witness pamphlet I picked up. Whats hysterical is that they cannot hang up first, so they're stuck listening to me). Then, if I get bored, I simply ask if they're trying to sell me somehting. If so, I hang up, problem solved. Alternatively, get caller ID: again, information provides freedom in that you can choose to ignore the caller.
Privacy is essential for deception, little else. Information is the key to protection, but only when we can trust the government.
And that brings me to my last point: we need a government we trust (incl. police, etc.) for my sort of philosophy to work; we need politicians who will protect us, and police who will serve us. But if we have that - if we know that we wont be illegally abused by Ashcroft and his cronies, then we have nothing to fear in providing our information to them. If I knew the cops weren't masturbating to the camera pointed in my bedroom window, I'd have very little problem having sex in front of it. As I've said, you've nothing to hide if you've done nothing wrong.

Re:Tracking isn't all bad...

[edp]

"... you could be ASURED that you'd never have a plan stolen, since the government could always confirm that it was your original idea..."

First, the government confirming an idea was yours wouldn't stop theft; it would just provide evidence. Second, even with evidence, suing somebody who stole your plans is expensive, time-consuming, and only returns a fraction of the value of not having the plans stolen in the first place. Third, not all theft of business plans is illegal. If you can figure out what a competitor is up to through public information and jump the gun on them, that's generally legal. So having the government referee who thought up an idea first does nothing to protect the idea. You must keep it private.

"I'm suggesting that the means to protection is strength (i.e. self-defense training, etc.)..."

You have no business telling any person that they should limit the deterrents they will use because you think self-defense is sufficient. It is not sufficient; it won't stop every attack, and there is no reason a person who wants to protect themselves should not be allowed and encouraged to use privacy as one means of protection.

... and through a willingness to trust your protectors (i.e. police). If police were watching my house 24-7..."

The only reason the police ever watch any house 24-7 is because they want to get the people inside in, not because they want to protect it. Believing the police can protect people is a fantasy. The police at most deter crime and punish criminals; they do not prevent crime, and you cannot rely on them. In fact, police departments have argued in court, successfully, that they have no duty to protect people.

"... telemarketers..."

The things you suggest, playing with the telemarketers or hanging up, do not remedy the problem: The disturbance still occurs. Caller ID helps but does not completely remedy the problem.

"Privacy is essential for deception, little else."

Well, then don't keep your passwords private; you must be deceiving somebody. Publish all of yours accounts and passwords here, along with your credit card numbers, Social Security account number, and so on.

Re:Tracking isn't all bad...

[The Only Druid]

Some good points, but I want to respond to a few others:

"Third, not all theft of business plans is illegal. If you can figure out what a competitor is up to through public information and jump the gun on them, that's generally legal."
So then all you're saying is this: you want privacy so that you can protect your slower development schedules. If you're my competitor, and you beat me to the market, that means in a very darwinian sense that you are more fit to survive. I'd say this would better strengthen the market as a whole.

"You have no business telling any person that they should limit the deterrents they will use because you think self-defense is sufficient."
I'm unclear as to why I'm not permitted to say what I think is the reasonable limit of deterrance, while you are. Frankly, the only difference between what you and I are saying is the location of the line of privacy - you are not disagreeing with me by nature, but instead by degree. As such, you're being a bit hypocritical in telling me not to tell other people how to protect themselves.

"The police at most deter crime and punish criminals; they do not prevent crime, and you cannot rely on them."
First of all, "deter" means to "prevent". Just wanted to point out a fundamental paradox in your statement. Second, my post included the fact that you need a criminal defense force that can be depended on for my philosophy to work. As such, you cannot attack my argument by simply refusing the premise. Simple logic demands that to assault an argument, you can only assault the components, not the premise that establishes the boundaries for the discussion.

"In fact, police departments have argued in court, successfully, that they have no duty to protect people."
Okay, first I've _never_ heard of this happening in court. If you could name the case[s] where this happened, I'd be quite interested to pull the casefile and review it, so I can speak from a fully informed perspective. As far as I know, the motto for every single police station in the United States of America is "To Serve and Protect." Sounds to me like their job is, frankly, to serve and protect people.

"Well, then don't keep your passwords private; you must be deceiving somebody. Publish all of yours accounts and passwords here, along with your credit card numbers, Social Security account number, and so on."
Clearly, you weren't in the mood to read the whole sentence. I specifically stated ",little else", meaning that there are a small set of actions where privacy is for reasons other than deception. Clearly, passwords are one of them. If you had read what I said, instead of looking for an out-of-context comment to respond to, you'd have realized this. What's interesting, though, is that you included the "little else" phrase in your quote of me, even though it refuted your response. Curious.

Re:Tracking isn't all bad...

[Anonymous Coward]

"In fact, police departments have argued in court, successfully, that they have no duty to protect people."

http://home.pacbell.net/dragon13/policeprot.html

and FYI the NYPD motto is FIDELIS AD MORTEM.

--I specifically stated ",little else", meaning that there are a small set of actions where privacy is for reasons other than deception. Clearly, passwords are one of them.

Fascinating that you're more worried about a password than your 4th Amendment rights. Hope yer papers are in order!

Re:Tracking isn't all bad...

[Mr. Slippery]

I'm not doing anything illegal, whatsoever.

That's exceedlying hard to believe. I'd be more willing to believe that you have the ability to flap your arms and fly than that you haven't broken some law in the past 12 months.

You never break a speed limit, or jaywalk? You comply with all tax laws? Report that $20 grandma sent you for your birthday on your 1040? Pay use taxes on stuff you get via mail order or the net?

Are you aware of all local laws on consensual sex acts, and do you follow them? (Most people with decent sex lives are criminals under Maryland laws, though those laws are not currently enforced.) And do you check the laws when you travel to other states or countries?

Don't forget our friend copyright. If you have a tape recorder, CD burner, or VCR, it's a pretty good bet that you've infringed copyright in some way.

Drink a glass of wine before you reached 21? Criminal.

Here in Maryland, we still have blasphemy laws on the books. Jesus fucking Christ on a bicycle, that one makes me a notorious scofflaw several times a week.

Some days I probably break six laws before breakfast, without commiting a single immoral act or harming anyone.

You can get around this...

[BrokenHalo]

I just symlink my cookies file to /dev/null, so all cookies are non-persistent. You can do something similar with Netscape or Mozilla on WinBoxen by just creating an empty directory called cookies.txt or whatever in the appropriate place (though I don't think this works for IE last time I looked).

There are several things you can do.

[Moderation abuser]

1. Use cash, not credit cards, for a start. Take out the most the ATMs will allow at any one time.

2. Buy a prepay mobile phone, pay cash for the top-up cards.

3. Set up free email addresses with Yahoo and the like. Use one address to get others.

4. Don't use encryption. Or alternatively, get *everyone* else to use encryption, but don't raise a flag over your mails.

5. Don't bother with store loyalty cards. I mean, are you really bothered about 5p off a product?

6. Support/use your local family grocer or market rather than the big chain stores.

There's more you can do, but doing the above is simple and will reduce your information profile significantly.

Re:There are several things you can do.

[thelen]

I think it's a mistake to approach the problem in terms of minimizing the footprint you leave. Why set yourself up in opposition to the system when you can utilize it's own methods to protect yourself?

For instance, why not use a grocery card with purchases that you would *want* people to see, like that you buy lots of broccoli and juice? In the worst case scenario, if an insurance company ever saw those records they'd believe you had lower cancer risk. Pay in cash for things you want them *not* to see, such as the bag of chocolates, smokes and double bottle of cheap red wine.

Put books on gardening and cooking on your credit card bill, pay in cash for books on hacking.

Use an ordinary mobile phone except for when you truly *need* privacy, and for god's sake turn it off when you cross state lines to buy grass!

Set up email accounts in several different classes: One that you *want* identified with you for legitimate personal/professional contact; one for questionable personal use (e.g., dirty jokes) that you access through a proxy server; one as a throwaway that you don't really care about, say for registration sites. And don't mix them up!

The point is to understand the system well enough to *purposely shape* the profile that's built of you rather than eliminating it all together. The latter option is becoming increasingly unrealistic.

Re:There are several things you can do.

[Junta]

1) Ok, so wow, they don't know what you buy, but at any one point you have hundreds of dollars on your person at a given time, and if you either get robbed or drop your wallet, well, you are pretty well screwed. An alternative is to make your purchases at the most generic place you can when you buy something. For example, knowing you bought something at a general store is not very informative as opposed to a purchase at a games store.

2) Never signed up for a prepay cell phone, this may be a good strategy, again, paying in cash may not buy you much though.

3) Also a fine point for the paranoid, but I'm not sure all these huge companies are all trading personal information so that any email address can be tracked down to someone.

4) Now this is just damn stupid. This is like telling someone to send all important information on a post card instead of in an envelope. Sure, an encrypted email may raise a flag somewhere, but if you use good encryption and use it for as much of your email as possible, pretty much no one short of the NSA is going to decipher your mail and after the NSA wastes enough time deciphering "Hello, how have you been?" messages, they may decide they are not worth the trouble. And if you believe they will try to read each and every encrypted email even if history shows all to be benign in your case, they would probably be reading your plaintext mail, especially if it happened to contain a few keywords.

5) Alternatively I would say feed the personal information out with bogus data, better yet get your friends to do the same and swap cards ever so often. That way you save money and provide no personal information.

6) If a local grocer or market exists, then yes, this is a nice thing to do, for more reasons than just protecting personal information. In fact, if your sole goal is protection of private informaiton this is not a good strategy. The better strategy would be to cycle your shopping among different stores and have those stores be far away, just because you aren't being electronically tracked does not mean other people can't look and see what you buy. If you are going to be paranoid, might as well be extremely paranoid.

I'm not that protective of my information, I really don't have anything to hide from the NSA. Encrypted email may set off flags, but I don't give a damn, I don't trust post cards and so I don't trust email, and if the NSA knows I'm telling my friend he can come over this weekend, I don't care.

I like protecting what I can from common eyes, but do not obssess over whether executives at Food Lion know I bought beef last week, or even that my bank knows I bought something expensive from an electronics store a while back. Protecting privacy is all good, but there is a point where the inconveniences are just overboard to protect data that no one is really interested in anyway, or at least data that can't really be used against you.

Re:There are several things you can do.

[DEBEDb]

6. Support/use your local family grocer or market rather than the big chain stores.

And your friendly family grocer will probably have more things to say about you than rows of data in a supermarket's computer. :)

Re:There are several things you can do.

[killmenow]

5) Alternatively I would say feed the personal information out with bogus data, better yet get your friends to do the same and swap cards ever so often. That way you save money and provide no personal information.

Krogers (a grocery chain in my area) uses these cards. The beauty of them, though, is that they are already active. I've gone to several different Krogers stores and asked for one for my friend, promising they will fill out the sheet and send it in.

Then I throw away the personal info sheet, add the card to my ever-rotating anonymous cards, and shop & save. I also pay cash when using those cards.

That being said, the answer to the original query ("Just how much privacy do we have?") is a simple, single word: none

So long as you exist within the system, you have no privacy. If you have a bank account, a job, a car, insurance, a doctor, an electric bill, a library card, etc., you cannot maintain your privacy. In reality, the only reason you have any privacy at all is because there are just too many targets to monitor 24/7 at present...but make no mistakes, if the "authorities" want to know something about you, there's almost nothing they can't find out.

Re:There are several things you can do.

[lightcycler]

4) Encrypting your email may 'flag' it, but at least nobody can read it without asking you first.

If police, the tax office, your ISP, your employer, and various civil servants can browse emails without justification, I'd certainly feel better if they had to persuade a court of law to ask me for my password, rather than just reading it and never telling me. At the very least, it eliminates 'trawling' through emails not involved in a crime.

Re:There are several things you can do.

[Moderation abuser]

1. I've never been robbed. I don't know anyone who's ever been robbed. I'm not particularly worried about losing a couple of hundred quid.

4. Only people who need encryption use it. It's like a big sign which says "Look at me, I'm doing something that I want to hide". It attracts attention, unless everyone is using it.

Re:There are several things you can do.

[Moderation abuser]

That's fine. The information he has isn't simply and immediately encodable into a format that can be searched and sifted. They want the info, they have to physically collect it.

Re:There are several things you can do.

[Junta]

Well, I've had my home robbed, and any cash laying around was gone, not exactly a mugging, but still a case where having large amounts of cash lying around would do more damage than a credit card. And oh how I wish *I* could say losing a couple hundred bucks would be no big deal, I don't think that many people would see it that way. The amount of information you have to give away when using a credit/debit/check card is relatively small if purchases are planned right, and what information you do give out isn't necessarily that detrimental.

4. I still strongly disagree here. I want encryption and use it for those recipients that accept it for all correspondence, but I have yet to pass any illicit material that way. Hell, I have a VPN configuration that has only served to protect FreeCiv games and trivial file transfers. And those who I want to hide things from are private individuals and organizations, who *cannot* read the mail, whether or not they have it flagged or not. As said before, *if* the NSA is trying to read my mail, they will get bored with it, and you can bet your ass that if you happen to mention some sensitive words in your unencrypted email that it will be *much* more likely to be read than any encrypted email, whether it be by private or government entities. If a password or billing information had to be emailed, it should be encrypted, otherwise a third party looking for keywords like "password" or "credit card" will stumble accross this stuff, while encrypted emails are useless to them.....
Trying to hide stuff in plain sight just doesn't work when computers can sift through this stuff to identify likely candidates for human review. If a group has a set of emails flagged for keywords and encrypted, those keyword emails are much much more likely to be perused, where often the encrypted email will be left untouched.

Re:There are several things you can do.

[Fascist Christ]

Set up email accounts in several different classes

I tried this for the past couple of years. Unfortunately, the one I wanted identified with me was on Hotmail and got more junk than all the others combined!

Re:There are several things you can do.

[n-baxley]

5. Don't bother with store loyalty cards. I mean, are you really bothered about 5p off a product?

I'm not sure what 5p is unless your not a USian, but on my typical grocery bill I save somethinhg like $5-$7. That's at least every other week. Minimally, we're talking $130 in a year! That's a little too much for me to drop on the floor.

Re:There are several things you can do.

[Anonymous Coward]

I all seriousness, I make it a point to purchase my copies of 2600 w/a credit card, even though I rarely use credit for purchases at that price level

Re:There are several things you can do.

[Anonymous Coward]

You can also keep using the "temporary card" (which was obtained without any data given out,since it was supposed to just enable me to sample the program) at the supermarket forever, like I've been doing the past 4 or 5 years

Re:There are several things you can do.

[noxavior]

Sorry to dissappoint you. Chocolate and red wine are both excellent for your health.

Slashdot -- news for idiots. Stuff that splatters.

[pwpbot]

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Privacy is overrated

[pieterh]

Human societies work best when there is little or no privacy in communal areas. We evolved to live in small villages where nothing was private unless you trekked across a mountainside to be alone.
People just don't behave themselves unless they know they are being watched and either criticized or given approval. This applies to drivers, policemen, government employees, hackers, anyone, as far as I can see.

One of the nice things about IT is its ability to blast huge holes in walls of 'privacy'. Don't forget that every nasty corporation hoping to turn a quick buck by selling private data can eventually be subject to the same inspection as Joe Schmo driving to work.

Re:Privacy is overrated

[Tim C]

Don't forget that every nasty corporation hoping to turn a quick buck by selling private data can eventually be subject to the same inspection as Joe Schmo driving to work.

You mean that we can sell their private data?

People go to prison for that sort of thing.

I also take issue with your assertion that I misbehave when left to my own devices.

The only thing that a loss of privacy will bring is more targetted advertising, and more targetted attacks on members of minority groups by the majority.

There was a case here in the UK a couple of years ago involving a little girl that was killed by a paedophile. Some groups of parents around the country started protesting against known and suspected paedophiles in their community, occasionally going as far as hounding them out and forcing them to move.

All fine, right? After all, paedophiles are evil, right?

Only trouble is that one of the people forced out was a paediatrician. The mob just saw the "paed" prefix and went baying for blood. She'd still be living in the same house now and would've been spared the experience if she'd only had a little more privacy.

As for the mob, they were interviewed on TV regularly over the course of a week or so. Lack of privacy didn't stop them, it encouraged them - they wanted people to sit up and take notice, to get a law passed forcing police to inform people of paedophiles that moved into the area.

My personal feeling is that a lack of privacy will do little to improve society, and has the potential to expose even more people to victimisation and pressure to conform. But then, I was teased at school and am "different" now, so I guess my outloook isn't as rosy as it could be.

Cheers,

Tim

And to think they laughed

[ch-chuck]

at The Net

Keep referencing New York Times

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah slashdotters! Keep referencing New York Times. Keep signing up and registering new people. Now the LA Times is following suit. Make sure you keep using them and linking them for sources in your articles. Then don't go cryin' home to mama when they put everything together, build a nice little profile on you, and someone steals your identity. Or checks everything you've done, everyplace you've went, everyone you've come in contact with, everything you've said because you might be a terrorist. FBI already checking your book checkouts, and library online travels. Already purchasing your marketing info and sticking in their database. Wanna bet some criminal is gonna hack it? Wait till you become an identity fraud victim. Never ending nightmare. All because of slashdotters, and those great references to New York Times. Geniuses.

Something they missed, Digital cable/DSS/Tivo

[Anonymous Coward]

Digital cable, DSS, and tivo are all capable of collecting personal viewing information. They all have mechanisms to phone home and share this data, and none of the companies promise that they won't sell that data. True, you can get a Pirate Hucard for your DSS system, and then unplug the phone line, and Tivo is so far a relatively reputable company, but it's pretty clear that it's now 1984 and our tv-sets are all 2-way so that They can know what we do every minute of our lives.
As far as the daily propaganda film is concerned, everyone without a Tivo who watches TV without pre-recording it on a VCR (or suitably equiped PC) is subject to the propaganda, of how great it is to use in-stream pregnacy tests. Or which shoe Athlete X was paid to wear (they even made a movie about that "Like Mike"). Which deoderant to wear, and how to get the best shave a man can get. This constant bombardmant cannot be good for society.

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

Lessons Learned

[macsforever2001]

Lessons Learned:

• To get cash, wear a facemask at the ATM machine.
• Use the stairs instead of the elevator.
• • If in a skyscraper - do not pick your nose in the elevator.
• Do not get AIDS.
• Get a digital cell phone, not an analog one.
• Do not go to bars - at least ones that ID you.
• Do not use those lame bonus cards at the grocery store.
• For Tollbooths, do not get those nice EZpass things. Just use cash.
• Do not buy a car with a fancy GPS based navigation system.
• • Make sure your car rental does not have one either - go with the economy car.
• At work: Do not disparage your company or boss via email - or at least use PGP.
• At work: Do not waste time surfing the web... damn busted!

For thieves and low-lifes only:

• After you have robbed another person, do not use their ATM card as you travel.
• Do not steal a car with a fancy GPS based navigation system.
• Do not go to an airport, walk near public buildings or walk the streets of a major city
• When erasing computer files to hide corporate fraud, use a program that overwrites the free space.

Does anyone know where I can download that "Caught In The Act" video?

Re:Lessons Learned

[Anonymous Coward]

"Get a digital cell phone, not an analog one"

GSM uses weak encryption, and is trivial to listen to, apparently. Granted, you need more than a $10 scanner, but not that much more...

Re:Lessons Learned

[killmenow]

To really maintain your privacy, try these out:

• hide your birth...do not report your birth...do not get a SSN (if american) or whatever your country uses
• to get cash, do not maintain a bank account...only accept payment of services in cash
• do not get or use a cell phone...phreak the telcos to get free phone service...in a pinch, buy (with cash) pre-paid calling cards and use payphones
• do not go to bars - buy drugs from people with just as much (or preferably more) to lose as you if caught
• do not shop at the grocery store...buy only from an Amway distributor, paying cash, under a pseudonym, always pick your stuff up
• do not get a driver's license
• do not buy a car
• do not rent a car
• when communicating electronically, always use PGP, always use re-mailers, and always do so from someone else's computer
• do not e-mail anyone directly...post to alternating usenet groups
• do not work for anyone...as an employee anyway...only consult...only for cash (see above)...only under the table
• do not post to slashdot ... aww CRAP!

Re:Lessons Learned

[Anonymous Coward]

Sir, do you sell tin hats?

If not, do you know where I could by one?
_Without_ a surveillance camera?

This is insightful?

[cascadingstylesheet]

Don't be an idiot. As soon as the authorities adopt an exlcusive rule -- "We won't stop grandmothers" -- they open up a huge hole in their procedures, one which will get exploited.

Maybe it's the comp-sci orientation of /., but why do people here seem to believe that criminals and terrorists are all-logical, all-careful, and all-powerful? I guess by your logic, we should just give up. Anything we try will just be defeated and worked around. Oh well!

Police and intelligence work has gone on forever, and will continue to go on. Patterns and behaviors are analyzed, and do yield useful information. It does make sense to focus limited resources where they will do the most good.

Nobody I've seen is advocating exclusively searching specific profiles, but you will get the most (least?) bang for your buck that way.

Re:This is insightful?

[gilroy]

Blockquoth the poster:

why do people here seem to believe that criminals and terrorists are all-logical, all-careful, and all-powerful?

Why do people seem to believe that law enforcement is "all-logical, all-careful, and all-powerful"? Why do people assume that targeted ethnic searching won't lead to higher incidence of abuse of the innocent?

I don't assume that terrorists are all-logical. I just assume that they are logical: that a search pattern significant enough to stir recognition in the average traveler, and enough to be run on national news, might -- just maybe -- also be obvious enough to be spotted by the terrorists.

It does make sense to focus limited resources where they will do the most good.

It hasn't been shown that this is where it does the most good. The case for racial profiling hasn't ever been made, much less made well. On the other hand, in a world of limited resources, it certainly doesn't make sense to throw away resources you have. If it's true that

Police and intelligence work has gone on forever, and will continue to go on.

then does it makes sense to blindly alienate the community in which that intelligence work must take place? Is it reasonable to ask the average Arab-American to risk their lives for a country that makes them pariahs based -- not on their citizenship, their record, or their contributions -- but on their genetics? How many people will come forward to a law enforcement regime that states, blatantly, "We don't trust you, because of your skin"?

The call for racial profiling is just another quick-fix, "minimize my inconvenience" tactic that goes against the grain of American liberty in the name of pursuing a chimeric safety in this so-called war. It would at best engender a false sense of security and could conceivably unerdmine the safety of the citizens of the US... even the ones blessed enough to be the "good" racial groups.

I would but

[prisoner]

there aren't any "local family grocers" left. There is a farmers market but they don't sell toilet paper, razor blades, etc etc etc.

Dolt

[Anonymous Coward]

What if you go to the latest "Greenspeace" meeting to protest the building of a nuclear reactor down the street?

...and then the government decides Greenspeace is a terrorist organization...

Fortuntely *YOU* never do anything wrong (I mean, other than go to terrorist meetings).

Then when you don't get that job, you won't even understand why. After all, what self-respecting company hires known terrorists.

Do you know what? My scenario isn't worst case, either. But you seem content in your idyllic middle-class cocoon, so what the hell.

People are stupid and crazy

[colmore]

From the article:

Meanwhile, Larry Ponemon, the CEO of Privacy Council, says that since September 11 he's been hired by at least one major supermarket chain to oversee the handing over to law enforcement agencies of the buying records of customers with specific ethnic backgrounds. The authorities requested the data, Ponemon says, because they were trying to compile a profile of "terrorist eating habits."

There is nothing that can be added to that.

Re:Aluminum foil pockets

[Anonymous Coward]

Nuff said.

radio shack

[Anonymous Coward]

--now you know. radio shack has got to be the worst dickheads about this. Forewarned is fore armed, always have some silly address and phone number in mind as you approach the counter. Go to different radio shacks and rotate around. When I first ran into this I couldn't believe it and loudly ripped them a new one in front of the other customers there. My closest local one now is used to me giving them silly names and addys and phone numbers. I think the poor clerks are just as embarrased and upset with it as the customer, just like everyone else (mostly) when it comes to anyones personal job they don't want to jepordize it. Hmm, that's the main reason government gets away with so much bogus crap, the drones are not very good at whistleblowing or saying "no" to illegal orders. Just my opinion on that.

I honestly think that someone might have a civil case against them, but IANAL, maybe someone who is can chime in. They absolutely DO need to be sued over their policy at the counter.

The crux: is it OK if it's "just" commercial?

[dpbsmith]

IMHO, the real crux of the privacy debate never gets stated clearly.

It is this: there are many people who believe that invasion of privacy is perfectly OK as long as it is done only in pursuit of commerce.

In other words, if they have a dossier on you and they use it to blacklist you and prevent you from getting work, that's wrong; but as long as all they do with it is use it to sell you things, that's OK.

I happen to believe myself that it is definitely not OK. But I think it would clarify the debate if it clear that, currently, that's at the core of what the debate is about.

By the way, don't you wonder whether companies really use all that marketing information in the positive ways they suggest ("If you just bought a recumbent bike, wouldn't you actually LIKE to get catalogs of gear for recumbent bikes?") or whether it's really being used for electronic redlining?

Yikes! Shouldn't there be a law?

[parking_god]

The (IMO) scariest line in the whole article:

"No federal laws protect the privacy of medical records."

Popular Science

[lblack]

American Scientist and Nature, with a little bit of the Skeptical Inquirer and Astronomy will make you wonder why you've bothered with Popular Science since 1990 or so.

Leem

Re:Popular Science

[doubtless]

Since 1990? more like 2001, and I still blamed my foolishness.

Again, I ask really...

[nordaim]

are any of us honestly surprised by this? Most of the individuals who read ./ (News for Nerds, you know) tend to be technically savvy and have a good understanding of technology.

Look at most of the commentary that went on in this "community" post-september 11th with how rights and civil liberties were being trashed.

Are we so naive to believe that this information is not being tracked?

Oh, wait, I left a comment on Slashdot and now the Feds are going to come get me...

How to disappear completely

[i_want_you_to_throw_]

Is a great infoporn story in the latest Wired.

Re:How to disappear completely

[qengho]

And here's the link: How to disappear

Re:How to disappear completely

[i_want_you_to_throw_]

Ah the beauty of the nice community here at /. Wish I could mod this up.

None.

[Anonymous Coward]

See subject.

Re:teenage girls blow themselves up in Israel

[The Only Druid]

There are documented cases of old women and young girls (prepubescent) blowing themselves up as terrorist bombers in the name of the Palestinians (both PLA and PLO) in Israel. As such, its not to far a stretch that they could bomb or hijack a plane.

What is this obsession with privacy?

[Demerara]

I live in a developing country where privacy and silence, for that matter, are luxuries. Privacy is having a door on the crapper.

I moved here from the UK in '95 when they were establishing the first large-scale CCTV systems in urban areas - there was a fuss about that which has now largely died down because of the effectiveness of these systems in combatting crime.

Is everyone on /. completely paranoid, have you all had horrible Big Brother experiences?

Re:What is this obsession with privacy?

[Hoi Polloi]

I'd reply to this but the UK doesn't protect free speech either.

How to be Invisible

[Stultsinator]

I recently read an excellent book on privacy protection by J. J. Luna (sparked by an earlier thread on privacy here.) Evidently he's set up a website to promote the book (http://www.howtobeinvisible.com/). I highly recommend this book to anyone who's concerned about their privacy.

depends on the regime

[crovira]

In America, maybe in your home.

In other countries, maybe in between your ears.

The world has become too dangerous to let anyone have privacy.

And it will remain so until we ACT on declarations of war, Jihad and Fatwah and paint a bull's eye on the declarator's forehead and blow it off.

There will be no peace for the US and no return to the less expensive and freer way of life until we have a government hit squad who are mandated openly and supported with funds who'se mission is to terminate with extreme prejudice any individual who overtly declares war, Jihad and Fatwah on us.

Its that simple.

Now it would be CHEAPER to do it that way but Americans will just suck up the cost and kiss their privacy good bye because they're idiots and the terrorists will still be able to organize covertly and then come here and blow up busses and mail boxes.

This loss of privacy will NOT address the covert operations but a publicly supported "Hit Squad" might eliminate the public justification and posturing and fund-rasing efforts. (Box cutters and twenty plane tickets may have been cheap but testing out the strategy and feeding, clothing and housing the animals who destroyed the WTC cost. Without Osama's millions, it wouldn't have happened.)

But until Islam recovers some sense of shame about hom-/suic-icide, your best bet is making wide spread use of electric energy and a nice, brightly painted, thermo-nuclear device on a tall pole planted in Mecca displaying a simple message: "Attack us and we set this off!"

Re:depends on the regime

[metachimp]

Don't like Muslims much, do you? Your bigotry is showing.

It's obvious that you also don't really know much about Islam, either. A Fatwah is a decision on an issue, any issue, that a Muslim cleric makes. It's like a judicial ruling. For instance, if I catch you spray-painting anti-Islamic diatribes on my house, I would go to an Imam or Sheikh and present them with the facts. He will then issue a fatwah, or ruling, that says I get knock the teeth out of your ignorant head. Fatwahs are not issued "on us".

When you grow up and finish your education, perhaps then you will learn that the actions of a few fanatics cannot be applied to every member of the world's largest religion.

Better yet

[Anonymous Coward]

Get hired by monitoring company or start one. Accumulate embarrassing info on public officials, law enforcement officials, and pro-monitoring advocates. Anonymously give info to press. Sit back and watch cameras being removed...

Re:So they know what kind of ice cream I like? And

[bbc22405]

Why do we expect privacy when dealing with the outside world?

Ah, a game of softball? How refreshing.

"Amendment IV

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

And before the conversation wanders, let me remind you that the above is a minimum , not a maximum.

Also, the above restraint only applies to the government, not corporations. Corporations may be restrained by existing laws, and as the article makes clear, they should be restrained by additional ones.

Stop expecting privacy when using services provided by someone other than yourself.

No. For example, it is illegal to tamper with US Mail. It is illegal in many states to eavesdrop in certain ways, or to record certain conversations. I expect my phone calls, my mail, and more to be private. There is more that I want, and if a majority of Americans would join me, we would have those privacies as well. There is no plausible reason why I should be able to purchase your medical history, your salary history, or your credit history. A narrow group of people or corporations may need to know these things, with your informed consent, in certain situations, but the general public never does.

Bullsh*t

[Anonymous Coward]

So criminals were never caught before ATMs were invented? Don't knock privacy because of lazy police. Get a clue. One extreme example doesn't justify anything.

Ironic...

[Hoi Polloi]

Funny how we fantasize in our games and movies about crime, terrorism and blowing things up in general but then act shocked when someone actually does it in real life. A nation of closet cases if you ask me.

How much?

[Gulthek]

We have as much privacy as most people [in our respective, democratic countries] want, or think they deserve, to have. Scary, isn't it?

The Axe-Murderer Next Door

[ilsa]

On the one hand, I'd like my personal information to stay as private as is reasonably possible. On the other hand I know complete privacy is gone in this country. If you don't believe me, do a google search for yourself. Better yet, do a google search for a former boy/girlfriend. I bet in less than 5 minutes you will know what metropolitan area they live in and have a pretty good idea what they do for a living. You might even know what their hobbies are these days.

There is a silver lining to this. It's nice to know that if my next door neighbor were to be brutally murdered and the weapon tossed over the fence into my yard, the nice folks at the police station could pull up records saying I was shopping 10 miles away at the time of the crime.

Employers can check my medical records?

[pschmitt]

Employers can check my medical records? I knew that insurance companies could check medical record through MIB if I was applying for insurance. But this article states that if I interview for a new job, the prospective employer could check my medical records. This is completely new to me. Does this mean that if I got your SS number, I could check your medical info by submitting a request to MIB and claiming that I represent a company that has interviewed you?

Nuclear Chemical Biological Weapons and Explosives

[OracleX103]

Alright that should get some people's attention. quite possibly someone in a government office. I am employed to do research on methods and commercial products available for detecting the items in my title. Now to properly do this i need a little background information correct? I thought so. therefore I had to go to Google and search under various things related to (Nuclear Chemical Biological) Weapons and Explosives.

So now my question is after logging on to my computer with my user name which is invariably connected to my real name and other employment records.....

How many computers per day is my name going through?

How many government people are interesting in what i'm doing RIGHT NOW.....
Just something to keep in mind. I don't have anything to hide, but i don't like the idea of my name circulating on some stuffed shirt's desk.
-Chris

EZ Pass and Civil Cases

[General Cluster]

A real estate lawyer in NYC was telling me that in order to prove that NYC was not the primary residence of one of his clients, the opposing attorney issued a subpoena for his EZ pass records. No hacking or suggestion of terrorism was required.

In this case the opposing attorneys could see that he left the city every evening, and that he could not legitimately claim residency.

He lost his case.

While you are opting out...

[i_want_you_to_throw_]

Some of the ways of opting out are obvious, fake names for store loyalty cards, etc.

Don't forget to remove all of your usenet postings from Google. To prevent articles from being added to the Google Groups archive, add 'X-No-Archive: yes' in the header of the article when you post. If your news posting software does not allow you to edit headers, type 'X-No-Archive: yes' as the first line of your post.

Then post all under fake names after that.

There is not right of privacy

[Arandir]

There is no right of privacy. No, this isn't a troll. It's the truth. Our expections of privacy are not rights, just expectations. Legally transforming these expectations into rights is a guarantee that the Law of Unexpected Consequences will be invoked.

Throughout most of human existance privacy was a virtual unknown. Communities were small enough that everyone knew everyone else. Everyone knew where you were, where you were going, and what you were going to do when you got there. The only privacy you had was within your own home if you were lucky enough to have one. Back then (prior to a mere few decades ago) privacy meant solitude

Jump to today. We are so confused over privacy it's almost funny. We would be incensed if everyone knew that we were buying condoms online, yet we buy them at the local drug store in plain sight. We display outrage when a website tracks our addresses, yet we post our real estate listings in the local paper. We wonder why PGP hasn't caught on for email with the general public, yet we yack on the cell phone in the clear all day long.

The big disconnect is easy to explain. We think we have an expectation of privacy because we are sitting in a chair in our homes with the curtains closed. But in reality we are online spewing out personal information as fast as we can over the internet. Here's an experiment. Go buy the very same product three times. The first time buy it online using your personal computer from your home. The second time buy it online using a computer sitting in a public library. The third time buy it from a brick and mortar retailer.

We should have, and must have, privacy within our own homes, including the harddrives of the computers within our homes. But that privacy ends at the walls of our homes. Once we engage in communication beyond our house walls, it's up to us to make our own privacy by using encryption, anonymizers or whatnot.

Re:flawed moderation

[The Only Druid]

By the way, I'm curious as to what moderator docked my message a point for, since I see no comment with the score reduction. If it's just that I presented a point of view that they disagreed with, I'm quite disapointed in them. The moderation system is only intended to eliminate unhelpful comments (and conversely to praise helpful ones), not to filter out ideas you simply do not like.

A Slashdot Post

[Fascist Christ]

Before he goes to bed, a M$ employee posts an anonymous *nix-supporting comment on slashdot. The next day he is fired for anti-competitive behavior.

How do you prevent one party rule?

[Anonymous Coward]

Debaters on both sides are missing the most profound aspect of centralized surveillance: historically, nations that monitor their own citizens nearly ALWAYS use that information suppress legitimate political opposition.

America has a responsive, transparent government, but times change. Steady-state is an illusion. Individual privacy is essential to the continued functioning of our republic.

Tim

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

TechXNY and privacy

[Anonymous Coward]

Newsflash: TechXNY, supposedly a technology show, requires attendees who pay for their admission to supply the last 4 digits of their social security number to verify their credit card info during the online signup.

Combined with info located on other sites on how to breakdown social security numbers (beginning numbers are social security offices and area locators), and the info supplied during signup, crackers now have all the tools they need not only to steal your credit card info, but your identity as well.

God bless technology and TechXNY!

Re:One more time....

[symbolic]

It's NOT ABOUT WHETHER OR NOT YOU HAVE ANYTHING TO HIDE! With respect to the government, it's about whether or not there exists a reasonable cause to track what you're doing, PERIOD. No cause, no track. Sheesh...ever heard of the 4th Amendment?

Corporate abuse of information is a different matter. Here's the problem with corporations collecting information on what you do or what you buy: interpretation - it's an entirely subjective process that could have significant implications for you that you'd never even know about. Was there *really* a legitimate reason you were turned down for that loan? For that last job? For that last health insurance policy? Or, could it be the result of a composite score assigned to you based on an overall profile that has been established from all of the information that has been collected about you?

So just what was so scary about "1984"? (Or "We")

[Rose Meir]

Was it the overt "forcing" of conformity? Was it the bleakness of the characters' outlooks?

It seems from the posts that I see here that as long as we gradually erode our privacy, for convenience of course, we could always opt out by not using credit cards or the internet or... it is just fine with us, because only criminals need to worry about privacy.

So the option is opt out of society or be surveilled? We shouldn't worry or be concerned because there are options, for now?

Maybe we've already had the brainwashing. 1984 isn't so bad after all.

-Rose

Re:I can just see it....

[symbolic]

NSA Agent to FBI Agent...

"Well, as we suspected, they do eat."

There IS a Right to Privacy

[Garry Anderson]

First, here are three quotes from Rightoprivacy.com

"The right to be left alone -- the most comprehensive of rights, and the right most valued by civilized men.
To protect that right, every unjustifiable intrusion by the government upon the privacy of the individual, whatever the means employed, must be deemed a violation of the Fourth Amendment."

Justice Louis Brandeis in Olmstead v. U.S. (1928).

"No one shall be subjected to arbitrary interference with his privacy"

Article 12, United Nations Universal Declaration of Human Rights

Unfortunately, most people assume that they have greater rights to privacy than the Law actually provides. Others dismiss erosion of their rights to privacy with the dangerously false pretense that only people with something to hide should be concerned about the loss of privacy.

***********

The rest of this is a basic cut and paste from my previous posts on 'Bringing Echelon In From the Cold'

I believe anybody who says "They can read my email - I have nothing to hide" must be of low intelligence - a moron.

This information can be used retrospectively against you - wait until you get a just cause to fight. The UK government love to put down protesters - as can be seen when they tried to get the dirt on Paddington crash survivors group. This group was lead by the badly injured Pam Warren - whom I presume would have nothing to worry about, having her emails read.

News article: Labour admits second email seeking searches on rail group

Labour has found another email from a government adviser seeking information searches on the Paddington rail campaigners.

The adviser to Stephen Byers, sent a second request for the searches - which have been seen as an attempt to 'dig dirt' on members of the public.

Dan Corry's email to the Labour headquarters at Millbank Tower expressed a wish to find out what was behind the group's criticisms of Stephen Byers.

In it, Mr Corry said: "Any other checking useful. They seem to have an anti-SB agenda and we want to find out what lies behind it."

The department said the second email had been unearthed in a "very thorough" trawl of the email traffic from Mr Byers's special advisers.

A spokesman said it failed to reach the Labour Party owing to "intermittent difficulties" with the system.

The disclosure last week of Mr Corry's original email asking for information about the political affiliations of the Paddington group, prompted bitter accusations that the Government was trying to smear the crash survivors for asking awkward questions.

It led to unreserved apologies from Mr Corry and from new Transport Secretary Alistair Darling.

Story filed: 02:35 Tuesday 11th June 2002

***********

What do you think the USA Patriot Act is about?

It is all about Big Brother.

Ask the Security Services in the UK and US to deny this:

Internet surveillance, using carnivore or back doors in encryption, will not stop terrorists communicating by other means e.g. face to face, personal courier or steganography.

Terrorists will have to do that, or they will get caught.

Perhaps using mobile when absolutely essential, saying - Go with plan A (human bomb to target A), or plan B (target B) or abort.

SURVEILANCE WILL NOT BE ABLE TO STOP TERRORISTS - IT IS SPIN AND PROPAGANDA.

It is for several reasons, including: making you feel safer - that the government are doing something and the more malicious motive of privacy invasion.

Government say about surveillance - "you've nothing to fear - if you are not breaking the law"

This argument is made to pressure people into acquiescence - else appear guilty of hiding something.

It does not address the real reason why they want this information - they want a surveillance society.

They wish to invade your basic human right to privacy.

This is like having somebody watching everything you do - all your thoughts, hopes and fears will be open to them.

All your finances for them to scrutinize - heaven help you if you cannot account for every cent when they check on your taxes.

Do not believe the lies of Government - even more money spent on these measures will not protect you from terrorists.

It really annoys me that our governments would con their people like this.

We pay their wages - we deserve the Truth - not this spin and lies.

Beware corporate theft of your domain name. Please visit the World Intellectual Piracy Organization - not associated with United Nations WIPO.org

How much privacy?

[uncoveror]

How much privacy do we have? Nearly none, but at least we can stop them from watching us while we watch TV.

Re:locating GSM phones w/out GPS

[fr2ty]

If you want to give your german language skills a test, you might like this mp3 file of a police operation in Berlin involving GSM tapping and localisation. The cops refer to it as "ping".
If you want to know about the streets they're talking about, try this link and click on Berlin.

GSM seems to be enough for everyday police "work".

Re:One thing about privacy... (true story)

[Anonymous Coward]

The combination of broadly violated laws (traffic, drugs, public demonstration, misc.), previously private information easily accessible and usable by law enforcement, and suspension of due process (non-citizens broadly, Jose Padilla as citizen precedent) is leading to a government that could get very ugly. I don't claim to know if it will, but I am very concerned by what I see.

A sibling of mine (you don't need more info to understand the point) had a routine traffic violation lead to a local police department comparing their family name to a list of Taliban connected individuals. Evidently, our name "loosely resembled" a family name on the list.

Months after that occurred, my sibling's spouse was pulled from work to come to the police station for questioning.

They asked a few questions that due to my in-law being a little confused led them to believe that they should approach it differently. They then showed a photo of my sibling and asked what my in-law could tell them about that person. Since it was just local police using FBI to get information, the person explained why my in-law was being questioned.

As it turns out, they decided to investigate my sibling's background, watch my sibling (at least), and had a quite thick file on them. The police had also decided to put an alert in some areas that. as they described it, would make my sibling's greeting "look like cops" should they show up in certain locations.

Due to good legal support, my sibling is not being held and not being charged with anything. Nothing illegal was ever found.

Even if this was not so close to me, knowing that it happened would certainly not make me feel "safer". Personally, knowing that a sibling of mine was investigated and under surveillance for having a name we share does not make me feel "free" in this country of ours.

I happen to have a relatively high-profile position and some might not like my political views. At what point can/will this power be abused by anyone in a position to wield it? At what point should I be afraid to speak out for fear of repercussion that goes beyond debate?

This does not feel like the US where I grew up, and the situation does not look likely to improve unless and until enough people feel enough risk and are willing to do something about it.