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P2P Streaming Radio
sonicsft writes "RIAA, CARP, and streaming internet radio, oh my. Well these guys may have found a solution. With the tag line, pirate radio for the digital age, they've released a peer to peer streaming radio solution and claim that it is untracable/closable by the RIAA."
if you really want to set it free GPL it
The developer should be careful
... like the PVR which had unsed tracking software built in that the courts demanded was turned on.
"There's no listener count yet. To be added soon, along with stats to give some idea about the 'shape' of the data tree. "
It should be kept 100% anonymous, if there's a hint that the data is available then "they" will go after it
Radio audio-quality recordings? ;)
Or do we get burned again like with kazaa?
I'd like to see some *original* content put on-line, freely distributable.
E.G. (get permission to, then) video the singers, etc, at your local bar, and put it on-line in the new OGG video format, (once it's finished), and license it under the BSD licence. The performer would get well known, and go on to sell tickets to future live performances.
Remember that swarmcast technology that was on Slashdot a while ago? Basically everyone on Slashdot tried downloading some 350MB file of audio clips from a conference and everyone who was downloading was uploading at the same time and so the end result was that the more people who downloaded, the faster the downloads went for everyone.
;)
I'm guessing this is sort of the same kind of deal? How long until we modifies this to share "recipies"?
- JoeShmoe
.
-- I wonder which will go down in history as the bigger failure: the War on Drugs or the War on Filesharing
Just like any sort of encryption scheme or digital rights system, there's always a vulnerability, the human factor.
Somehow, someone will figure out some sort of system or program to trace the stream to it's origin. They'd like to think it's secure/untraceable, but someone will find a way around it.
The fact that this guy's website if expressly saying he's doing this to bypass carp is going to screw him in the long run. If he got taken to court and his most obvious defense would be to say that this was created to help independent artists broadcast their music. Then the judge will look at the pages from his website and that defense will be dead right away.
If you're going to try to take on the system, try to do it in an intelligent manner.
This sig has been temporarily disconnected or is no longer in service
Anyone know the difference?
Windows Only + No source + one guy = Killable by RIAA.
I'm not impressed.
Burn Hollywood Burn
.....but thse guys are just begging to be done over.
Making statements like that just invite the RIAA to sue their asses, wave these statements in court and walk home with a self satisfied smile on their faces as they drag the asses of these people in chains behind them.
Donte Alistair Anderson Roberts - hi son!
Karma: Chameleon
As soon as I try to view the stations the streamer exe bombs. Don't bother downloading this pos if you run wk2.
doesn't gpl'ing the program give it unlimited rights to distribute the program? if riaa messes with a gpl'ed program, doesn't the gnu foundation get involved?
Community of Logged In Trolls, so you can call them CLIT or "those guys jealous of ACs", either works fine.
P.S. All of England is wishing Germany a good luck, beat the Brazillians.
Sorry, but since the US is no longer a part of the World Cup, it doesn't exit anymore.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Instead of taxing one individual, they can tax every person on this network they find, since they are all transmitters.
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from a rigged demo.
From what I've seen, this has potential. It's simply too buggy to be useful at the moment, though. It'd be nice if it was open-source, too. This guy is just setting himself up to be sued by the RIAA if this takes off...
Out of curiosity, anyone managed to get this working in wine? Everything seemed to be going fine on my try up to the point of picking a station, and at that point wine crashes.
Everything will be taken away from you.
BTW, I'm running WinXP.
That is obviously your only problem... I mean, it couldn't be the software!
You ought to consider switching to Linux.
This doesn't avoid "broadcasting" over the internet at all.
Think about it, under this system, EVERYONE is broadcasting/webcasting and each USER would be required to pay the RIAA fee.
This might be a decent system to spread the pain, however. If you only had to pay $.14/hour to listen to netradio (assuming you passed to two other people), that could be a very affordable rate.
200 people could each afford to pay when they listen, rather than one station paying for everyone.
Don't bill it as a circumvention device, bill it as a load-balancer for the internet.
Colin
Colin Davis
It scares me to think what any GUI for this would look like considering his HTML coding.
THE WORLD IS GOING TO END!!!! eventually.
A lot of the feedback (no pun intended) is that there are problems with this system. It won't work, it will be traceable, it isn't Linux compatible, there are bugs, the RIAA will catch them, blah blah bloody-blah.
At least those guys are trying to come up with a system that will allow free, unfettered broadcasting over the internet. They are trying, and sure there are probably a million holes in their software at this stage, but hey, it never stopped Microsoft.
I say give them our support, and see if we can't one day have a working P2P broadcast model that is free and untouchable.
If the pattern goes 9am, 10am, 11am, why isn't noon 12am?
I've gone from being completely indifferent about internet radio to being a huge fan of it in the span of about a year. I have not listened to broadcast music in a couple years now. Just about everything I listened to for a long time came out of my friends and I's CD pools. We'd make compilation albums for each other or just snag songs we particularly enjoyed from albums in each others collections. Broadcast radio has always been shit but recently it has been so bad I simply can't stand to listen to it. I began to go to dozens of concerts from LA to San Diego. Last year I think I tallied 35 concerts in about 9 months. Was I going to see bigass arena shows being hyped by radio stations? Only in a very small handful of cases like the Yahoo Outloud Weezer tour, when I went to the LA and SD shows. Most shows I was going to were indie rock shows and small local shows. Anyhow, I was going to these shows SPECIFICALLY because the bands weren't being played on the radio. People I find incredibly talented like Ozma and The Get Up Kids will be lucky to ever have a single played on a station like KROQ. Going to all the shows I did and picking up albums from bands I liked, I not only put money in their pockets but got introduced to more bands than I can easily recall. These are some badass bands in my opinion but they're not going to be found on the radio.
Then I started getting into more electronic stuff but was never really one for the electronic scene. I can't stand seeing a bunch of cornbread white guys revving their rice burners in parking lots. It isn't racism or anything, it just looks stupid seeing some pimply faced kid with his Fred Durst hat with a "Powered by VTEC" sticker on his read window. The drugged out raver wannabes aren't exactly up on my list of social affiliations either. Rather than tell them they shouldn't be who they want to be I just avoid the scene entirely. So that leaves me with nowhere to get music other than Napster or something. It is nice to see if I want to spend money on an album but most songs are recorded poorly at too low of a bit rate for my taste. Then I fire up iTunes on my Powerbook and browse to the electronic stations. Holy shit! Music that doesn't sound like ass when I plug it into my sound system and doesn't have an inane DJ being wiggity whack on the air. Fuck yes. Not only do I get a good stream of music but I also have a display of what song I'm listening to in case I find myself interested in the artist. Then there is the choice available, if one station starts in with something I don't like I can double click another one with a different stream. Internet radio has become the radio I've been wanting for years. In an hour block I get to hear about an hour's worth of music, not 10 minutes of decent music, 30 minutes of slop I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy and 20 minutes of inane advertisements for shit I don't buy and DJs I'd rather have shot into the Sun.
Now it is facing some stiff opposition in the form the RIAA and their demonic minions. I don't want to see internet radio go down because it is the only inexpensive way I've got left to get introduced to some good music. Sharing with my friends is nice but there isn't enough variety to really find off the wall shit I end up really digging. P2P radio seems like an obvious solution because of the P2P buzzword culture surging as of late. The model however runs into serious problems. The RIAA doesn't have to go after a single individual or group of individuals to take out P2P radio like they were able to with various sharing programs. All they have to do is make some deals with cable and DSL providers. Lets say there was a popular P2P radio in my town, all it would take is a deal or lawsuit against Charter and he would be toasted. We'd all end up with our bandwidth curtailed more than it already is and P2P radio would end up specifically forbidden in the AUP.
Switch to DSL you say? I fucking wish. PacBell couldn't find their dicks if they weren't at the end of their arms. Evne if DSL was viable for some people P2P regulating would still happen on the DSL system. Even with a competitive DSL provider like Covad or someone, they're still renting a pipe from PacBell and the bandwidth usage will make them be regulatory asses too.
P2P pirate radio is a noble idea I suppose, sticking it to the jackasses that are the RIAA but it is a short term solution to a long term problem. The RIAA has far too many lawyers on their side and enough backing to cow the major cable and DSL providers into line. An idea would be to get together with a bunch of schools around the country. Many schools have broadcast radio stations that don't have to stand up to RIAA scrutiny or lawsuits. They could house and host internet radio stations with the same function as broadcast stations, providing students with hands on experience either behind a mic or in an equipment room, but have much better standing in any internet radio lawsuits. Anything with P2P in the name is going to get turbofucked rather quickly by the RIAA no matter if they can track people down or not. It's sad but true. So who wants to build an island 13 miles off the Montery penninsula with an OC-192 hooked up to it? We could be Sealand Redux.
I'm a loner Dottie, a Rebel.
As the RIAA gets their DOS scripts ready...
:-)
He really should consider working with the GNUnet/Freenet teams on this if he really wants this concept to succeed.
Are these spam-posts by anonymous posters becoming
more common or are they just a regular thing that
get "suppressed" as they are moderated?
--sidster
Play lotto? Try http://www.alottofun.com/
...
And now for something completely different:
need I say more
If you consider anal rape a "success". Working with dirty GNU hippies will expose him to the seedy open sores underworld of fæces sex, rear entry, and the dreaded Richard M. Stallman, homo-extraordinare.
Someone is purposely crashing the network..if you start it up and click on stations, the streamer program will crash.
They're sending bad data as new station hosts. Hope he fixes this soon.
NEW STATION: ' ÷8çu_Y 93;m¥i#½Eúq" 962;8où& #8745;½n-fäMå'
NEW STATION: ' ÷8çu_Y 93;m¥i#½Eúq" 962;8où& #8745;½n-fKå'
NEW STATION: ' ÷8çu_Y 93;m¥i#½Eúq" 962;8où& #8745;½n-fIå'
NEW STATION: 'çlH]rèX╢ ; oíQe1\KÇf:za¥G;~& #9532;3ïQc|ï:'
Will this really matter once Mircosoft has effectively forced everyone to use DRM? Sure, there will still be many users of Linux(provided Paladium doesn't refuse to run it) and Mac, but without a very large userbase, how effective can pretty much any P2P program be? Undoubtedly, you won't be able to do stuff like this on windows anymore, once Palladium becomes a real product, and the most important people to the user base would have been Windows users.
Come to think of it, how will Palladium treat P2P software in general? I have doubts about it being varified as "secure".
Probably the best would be to integrate such a program into one of the opensource filesharing programs.
It should be optional - of course. But I think it is the only way to get a big enough population of users.
damn this thing still uses direct connection you directly connect to the station so you get their IP and then you simple look up their ISP send them a nice letter and get them shut down.
Dirk
Encryption and geography are the peoples greatest weapons against "them".
Have the stream encrypted, and if possible, the source IP spoofed. A third machine could relay any connection details back... ok so it would be an arse but it's just an idea.
Encrypting the stream (via keys derived from mouse movement, keypress timing etc.) would also mean "they" would have either have lotsa suits in black vans down every road or have every "suspected" pirate's house bugged up like a Redmond OS...
Ah yeah i can see Hollings now...
(2 hours after another attack by the Bin Laden Boys*) "Well we tried our best, but we simply can't do a thing to stop them when we have to put all our men out catching these evil music and software pirates! When they stop pirating we can move to protect the good citizens of the United States! Remember, report all the pirates you know of! They're as bad as the terrorists! And anyone who says otherwise is un-American, un-P.A.T.R.I.O.T-ic, and is as evil as the terrorists! You can recognise them easily, they have computers and they use "Emm Pee Three's", "Net Radio", "Morpheus" and "Kazaa"... so go forth and seek out these vile anti-american-way individuals, fight for your country, and help the fight against terror!"
The people are the guvverment's greatest weapon against the people. Nobody seems to realise that.
*OK, so I know (not think/suspect/reckon/"read somewhere", but i cant talk about it) that the Al-Q'ieda [sp?] attacks were requested by the US guvverment, and that Saudi Bin Laden Inc and bin laden himself are on the US guvverment payroll, but that's another matter...
It's so simple I feel like an idiot for not thinking of it myself. This game is beautiful and takes very little processor.
Judging by the fact that they have their game compiled for Linux as well (at about one-third the size as the Windows version, which both together make us less than 1 mega^H^H^H^H mebi^H^H^H^H million bytes) they'll probably go this direction with the Streamer app as well.
Just out of curiosity, has anyone checked to see if the http interface is open to the public or is just restricted to localhost? Maybe we can start controlling other people's streams (e.g. knocking off the idiot who's doing the corrupt stream name)
I design user interfaces for a free network management application,
Are you seriously expecting women to read Slashdot? Heh.
It useta crack me up when I saw douche ads during Star Trek.
they should say
"If you or any of your family or friends are members or work for the RIAA or the MPAA then you do not have premission to use this software. Also if you work in law enforcement or in the FBI you must delete this software at once."
Would be intersting.
-THIS SPACE FOR RENT!
A streaming audio solution that WON'T kick your bandwidth's ass is something sorely needed for Internet radio at the moment, period. Regardless of tariffs. Why? Well, if this sort of system gets refined and takes off, suddenly everyone with a suitable connection for one stream can broadcast, instead of having to either a) have a massive pipe or b) hunt down (or pay for!) some sort of relaying service.
This sort of idea seems destined for the time when everyone has 512k synchronous connections, though, because you'll need double whatever bandwidth is needed for your stream to relay.
What we call folk wisdom is often no more than a kind of expedient stupidity.-Edward Abbey
they've released a peer to peer streaming radio solution and claim that it is untracable/closable by the RIAA
:)
Yeah, they're gonna locate the servers in England!
"it is untracable/closable by the RIAA"
So did the programmers figure out how to make packets be invisible? If so, can they teach me that trick!?
Does the name Pavlov ring a bell?
Ah yes, another Slashdot poster-wanker. Here again we find a sophomore who, driven by the delusion of his intelligence and his ostracism by normal people (and no doubt the opposite sex), adopts his wankerdom as an ideology and an identity--and so hacks together some code to further The Cause and be admitted to the circle jerk of his fellow sufferers.
A tool to track a spanning tree across network backbones would not be hard to write; the broadcaster is simply the root of the tree. Even if more care is taken to disguise a broadcast's origins, the leaves of the trees are vulnerable to infiltration, backtrace, and closure (as are the destination nodes and matchmakers of any P2P mesh). Tools to analyze virtual networks do exist and I'm sure many prudent people, organizations, and ISPs (who have the right to know how you're using their property) are writing more.
These tools (and others) *will* be used to stop the theft of intellectual property. Any protests will fall on deaf ears, not because Big Brother has finally arrived, but because the ideology of the protesters is morally bankrupt.
On a related note: communications have never been untraceable since the dawn of civilization and we've done just fine, thanks--not because of dumb luck, or by the efforts of holier-than-thou vigilantes, but because fundamentally sound societies have strong processes to ensure their values are respected across all aspects of life - including the proper use of new technologies. These processes are only getting better as civilization marches on - so focus your energy on helping define the optimal set of ethical, societal controls on technology, not undermining them.
I just give it a quick try out of interest to see if it works from behind a NAT box or when it's firewalled. The answer seems to be no, though I may just be unlucky.
On p2p filesharing networks I'v observed about two thirds of the users are firewalled/NATed and
a lot of users don't have enough networking knowledge to set up port forwarding on their NAT/ICS/wingate PC or adsl router.
If node is looking for another node to get an
incoming feed from, it can directly connect to firewalled nodes so it has to get a message to the firewalled node via another node that the firewalled node has open a connection to.
The webpage say it dosn't currently optimise the network topology, hopfully it will cope with firewalled nodes when that is done.
Being behind a NAT means its effectivly firewalled and even if portforwarding is set up to allow it to receive incoming connections it won't know its own internet reachable ip address, it just sees a 192.168.x.x style address (rfc1918).
The filesharing client edonkey copes by having
edonkey servers tell client what their IP addresses are when they connect. The author could implement that in streamer, clientclient.
You like taking it up the ass from corporations, don't you? Ass-kisser.
fp s7yl3 w1t d4 g4ng5t4 h175 f00 c4r7311 g0nn4 w47ch m' B4CK fp s7yl3 w1t d4 g4ng5t4 h175 f00 c4r7311 g0nn4 w47ch m' B4CK 4w y34h
It seems that back in the late 1800's in America (I mention this for those /.ers who don't happen to live in the U.S.) there was this saloon in the
West that was kind of a run-down, ramshackle joint that was frequented by
a few loyal patrons and not too many others. I think it was California, but
it could have been Oregon or someplace similar -- well, the location isn't
really relevant to the story but if you're really interested you might
be able to dig a bit on Google to find out. Basically, while the saloon
didn't go out of its way to publicize itself to out-of-towners (not much
point given that it was in a fairly remote area) it managed to do a fairly
steady trade despite the occasional brawl that caused property damage and
the persistent requests from a particular fellow for free drinks.
More nights than not, the proprietor of the saloon would watch this drunk come wandering in through the doors, sit down, and lay a line on him about how he's trying to pull things together and how he'd just make enough to keep himself in beans and couldn't the bartender just pour him a shot or two to fuzz the edges and whatnot. And again, more nights than not, the bartender would take pity on the poor guy and pull out the whiskey.
Now, this went on for some time, and while the bartender was an easy mark even he had his limit. So one night, after the bartender already gave the fellow three shots on the house, he decides to cut the guy off.
"Look," he says, "while I'm really sorry to hear that things still aren't working out for you I don't think that I can keep giving you free drinks. I've got to make ends meet too, you know."
So the drunk says, "I don't suppose you've got anything I can do to get another drink tonight?"
The proprietor, not particularly wanting the fellow to hang around all night and certainly not expecting him to take him up on his proposition, says "Well, you see that spittoon over there? If you take a swig out of that I suppose I could give you a drink to wash it down."
No sooner did he finish his last sentence than the drunk walked over to the spittoon and hefted it off of the floor. Before the bartender could stop him, the fellow put the rim to his lips, tipped the bottom of the metal container up into the air, and began to swallow. To the bartender's dismayal, the guy continued to slowly chug the thick contents of the spittoon. When he had finally gulped the final remnants of the container, he threw it to the ground, wiped off his lips with his shirt cuff, and gagged, "So, do I get the drink?"
"You can have the bottle!" exclaimed the bartender, immediately pouring the first shot. "But tell me, why did you swallow the whole damn thing? You only needed to swig it to earn the drink."
The drunk replies: "It was all one long string."
Why not just pay for it? (the music that is). Broadcasted music isn't really that expensive to finance, even small broadcasts can be financed with advertising.
The cheapness just sucks, artists work hard for their living!
I dont know if it will be in palladium v1, but eventually the DRM hardware will just make "audio-fingerprints" and extract watermarks directly from audio output and check both at a m$/RIAA server ... so they wont really need a DRM scheme in the format itself.
n/t
Hello folks, Since it seems other folks are getting lots of attention, and this "P2P streaming" stuff is exactly what my OPENdj project is all about, I feel I've got to pitch OPENdj to you...
OPENdj is a distributed streamer, allowing DJs to schedule time on streams through a web based interface. It's pretty full-featured, with automatic archiving of all broadcasts, meta-tagging on broadcasts, searching on those metatags, listener counts, chat room features, etc.
OPENdj is open source software, available for anyone to download, play with, and use.
Check it out, let me know what you think.
- jonathan.
Check out OPENdj, my rendition of an open source, UNIX-based distributed streamer. It is very full featured and has been operating on http://opendj.com/ for over a year.
It is open source software, available for anyone to download, play with, and use.
Check it out and let me know what you think.
- jonathan.
I thought that first, but on a second reading it doesn't seem so obvious. I don't think it's unreasonable to argue that he's just annoyed at so many music streaming and trading services having been closed down. For all we know, he just wants something to trade non-corporate music.
From what he's said, he could easily just want a system for streaming fully legitimate mp3's, and simply be expressing disgust that the services that used to provide legal music are being shut down by bullies.
Stating that it's "enough to play your tunes to your mates" would also have to count in his favour.
There's a fun asteroids-type game on that page ^_^
-- 'The' Lord and Master Bitman On High, Master Of All
How would you stop this from becoming a problem?
Well you could devise some way of ignoring dud hosts. BUT - to do this you would have to have a method of identifying which hosts were broken (e.g. user ranking like slashdot moderation). Hence you can't be anonymous anymore.
I'm sure someone can counter this argument, I'd be interested to know any possible alternatives!
I was thinking about this a week ago, how to implement, etc. But it all came down to, "I don't have the time Right Now. Maybe when I finish my current project."
Anyway, some ideas I had:
That's all I can remember coming up with right now. There may have been more ideas that I can't remember right now.
whahahahahahaha. Thats the funniest thing I've read all day.
Please tell me you can read the red text over the 80's cubed out background. You must be using lynx...
This is exactly what I was expecting, although I was actually expecting it a few days sooner. When will corporations learn that you can't kill a good idea? Anytime people are getting a service that is deemed illegal, there will be at least one person who finds a way to circumvent the law and make it harder to shut down.
.mp3 added onto the end) to the anonymous p2p programs like Kazaa and the gnutella network. What has this gained the RIAA or any other industry pushing for the shutdown of these services? Instead of keeping the road open for them to make money in the future the companies have succeeded in pushing the services farther away from profitable in their current form. Now that we're not going to a central server or main website to get our things there really is no way to track individuals. Using Kazaa as an example, everytime I connect to a network I'm connecting to a different computer. Same with the gnutella network. I may stumble onto a specific computer once, but once I disconnect that computer will likely never see me again unless I'm looking for a file on their server... and even then I'll be untraceable. Stupid move for your company trying to make money.
We went from Usenet/website mp3's and warez to Napster mp3's and warez (with a
...Which brings us to this. In the beginning it would have been possible to track user stats, total listeners, and all that good stuff. Now what can you see? You'll notice 2 people connected to your computer, and each of those 2 computers will be connected to 2 or 3 other computers. But you don't know that, you don't know that there are others listening to the rebroadcasted stream. Efectively, you're killing your own market for ad revenue (hell, you're killing the possibility of even having ads on the air). How can you demand lots of money for ads on the air when all you can show is that 5 people are connecting to your computer? Granted, with rebroadcasting that could add up to 100's of users, but you don't know that and definitely can't prove it. Sucks to be you, I hope you're happy with the fruits of your lawsuits.
"Well kids, you tried your best, and you failed. The lesson is, never try." -Homer Simpson
It's real easy to piss on other's efforts isn't it? If this guy is serious, if his software works, when the RIAA comes after him, how long do you think it will be before he opens it up?
There's been a real trend of late to mod trash talk up as Insightful.
How long before an RIAA rep knocks on his door?
The idea of the program is good, if only to poke the riaa in the eye with a big long stick, but I didnt see that he mentioned anywhere how these P2P finds each other if the main-server goes down. Limeware and all the others needed to connect to a special server the first time they were ran to give them something to start off with. None of them started off right from scratch and suddenly found 67482 friends advertising their location to all possible ip's.
Has someone solved this for new clients or when all the old ip's have been forgotten from the cached list?
Anataka suki desu. Itsumo. Itsumademo.
The fact that the game the guy is selling on his website requires a check to be sent to him in the UK means that RIAA cant shut him down. He is British. He is not affected by your silly US laws (if he sensibly hosts it on a machine in the UK). Simple.
Steve
Check out OPENdj, my rendition of an open source, UNIX-based distributed streamer. It is very full featured and has been operating on http://opendj.com/ for over a year.
It is open source software, available for anyone to download, play with, and use.
Check it out and let me know what you think.
- jonathan.
Very interesting. To keep accounting of per-song streaming would require some work, and would be difficult for live analog sources.
About a year ago I had some spare time, so I built OPENdj: an open source Java/Linux distributed streamer. OPENdj could be extended to do a lot of the things you describe (which, by the way, are some very interesing ideas). A fully-functional version 1.0.0 was released last May.
Check it out, let me know what you think.
- jonathan.
The first obvious problem is that by connecting to a number of servers, I don't even need a spanning tree attack to trace the source of the broadcast; I can do it all with the latency differential, to find the "root" node.
The second obvious problem is that you can't find a broadcast source unless it's advertised, and once it's advertised, it can be found.
The third obvious problem is that, even if you solve the second obvious problem using a distribguted naming service and... for lack of a better name for it... "AntiBGP", you still have the problem of being able to use differential to find the source of the inital advertisement.
The fourth obvious problem is that you can find the source through traffic analysis: it's the one without an equal number of packets in and out.
Something like this can only ever be effective with a distributed flood-fill model, where you can trust your nearest neighbor, or your nearest neighbor doesn't actually know what he has. Effectively, this means that you have to go to a store-and-forward model, use hard crypto on the interconnects, and then generate bogus traffic to avoid analysis.
At that point, you would have to find a legitimate an legal use for the network before deploying it, or you are minimally an accessory before the fact and/or involved in a conspiracy to commit. If they can point at your node in the network and prove intent, then you are screwed.
"BlackNet" is really unsuitable for streaming data.
-- Terry
every 2nd post now is an offtopic troll. What is Slashdot going to do? This problem is becoming larger and larger, I'm sick of their "dead at 54" and "goatsecx" posts.
My software project Andromeda builds streaming sites from collections of MP3s and other files (PHP & ASP). Groups of friends often use it to stream to each other. It's P2P not in the mass anonymous download kind of way, but more like friend2friend. Please check it out.
Here's what I do: Bitty Browser & Andromeda
Here's a hypothetical strategy:
Open source the project. Then, with sufficiently quick and easy installer (not there yet), and easy-to-use broadcasting software (getting there), massive proliferation could result.
Then you're off to the law of large numbers. If it is really this easy for anyone to broadcast, there should be thousands of these small "community" radio stations.
There would be many to prosecute all of them, and it wouldn't be worthwhile because the number of listeners these stations have is so small. It would become a bit like speeding, technicially 5mph over the speed limit is illegal, but generally you won't get pulled over unless you up the numbers...
I encourage you to check out OPENdj, my rendition of an open source, UNIX-based distributed streamer. It is very full featured and has been operating on http://opendj.com/ for over a year.
It is open source software, available for anyone to download, play with, and use.
- jonathan.
trying to evade thier lawers with p2p schemes and the like is not the answer. while you think you may be soving this problem, your only giving them a reason to call you a pirate(so they have an excuse to buy laws) AND promoting thier artists at the same time! its a win/win for them.
t _r ights.htm
if you really want to know why CDs cost so much, its nothing more than supply and demand. its becasue people pay that much. if no one pays that much, theyll stop charging that much (after blaming every computer user for piracy, thanks to napster)
these assholes have money and power because we gave it to them. if we dont give them money, then they cant hire lobyyists or buy themselves senators.
STOP SUPPORTING THEM!
its that simple.if we continue to support them, they will continue to try to controll our lives in the intrest of thier profit and to try to make it harder for (non manufactured) artists that they cant control (becase every independant band gets money, and more importantly, mindshare that could instead go to them)
dont support muscians who are with the RIAA. its not hard, many musicans are not with them. there are many lables that have nothing to do with the RIAA. if musicans you like are with them, write to them. if enough people do, they will notice.
heres ia a list of RIAA labels.
http://www.riaa.org/About-Members-1.cfm
ive been boycotting the RIAA(and MPAA) for years now and i dont feel like im missing much. i still enjoy clubs and concerts, and i still buy CDs. (without worrying that they will break my computer) i know im not denting thier profits, but more importanly i know im not helping them either. i hope that if enough people realize what they are doing and spread the word, they will either change or no longer have the power they do.
if you are a musician thinking of signing on with an RIAA lable, follow the url below, and keep in mind you wont get any play on internet radio stations.
http://www.therecordindustry.com/courtney_artis
(/. puts the little space after r)
Just look for the link!!!!
Its late so please excuse any lack of structure in this post. Nuff said, so here we go.
The important fact to examine with this release is the idea, not the implementation, as seems to be the authors intent, as he repeatedly notes that this is a very early beta. And contrary to the reports of other posters, it appears that he is intent on releasing the source, as there is a link on the webpage (read the damn links people) but it is just down at the moment.
Rather than flaming the author on his lack of anonymity or direct association with the desire to counter the CARP decision, we should be praising him for putting himself on the line in an effort to fight censorship (even if it could be / is used for piracy, but thats another debate). It was this same kind of effort that allows people access to many other technologies, the most prominent in this day and age being encryption (historical note: Phil Zimmerman threw together the original copy of pgp to counter pending legislation prohibiting the dissimenation of encryption technology circa 1990).
**AA: a bunch of mindless jerks who'll be the first against the wall when the revolution comes
Posted AC as to not Karma Whore(TM)
-jstockdale
We get the idea. You really don't have to reply to every message that has the work "source" in it to show off your projects. You have gone from +1 Interesting to -1 Redundant.
Power to the people! I don't care whether this guy particularly succeeds as long as the idea does. I think it would be the supreme poetic justice if internet radio was transformed and transmogrified into a format that corporate interests could never have any control over. They've done their best to kill a beautiful, barely nascent digital sub-culture, and it's up to us to make sure they don't succeed. If they can't play nice, we won't let them play at all.
Remember this is a war, or it's them or us.
Never trust a man in a blue trench coat, Never drive a car when you're dead
sorry for yelling, but it apppears no one can read - as you said, the source is right there under the download link on the page and its not dead - I just downloaded it and it has a copy of the GPL in it - so its GPL'ed also. Whats worse is the moderators modding up all of this misinformation!!
Sound waves should be free!
yo - sorry I got a little excited. This is kind of like my baby project, and it's 6am, no sleep, lots of coffee.
your point is taken, i apologize for going overboard.
- jonathan.
I wish the RIAA would just fuck off and let information be free. They are just a bunch of asswipes in suits.
Will it only be when all geeks have microchips in their heads (running windows) that they realize that it is capitalism that is fucking up the whole world?
Solution: abolish money, abolish the state, abolish hierachy.
It could be that someone in Asia is trying to run it on a Chinese or Japanese system and this program can't handle the gibberish it gets when it tries to display one of these languages in english.
--Won't that be grand? Computers and the programs will start thinking and the people will stop. - Dr. Walter Gibbs
someone shoot this man, thank you.
Pirate radio stations tend to be low power, and serve their _local_ neighborhood. They can't be heard across the country, and thus they tend to avoid notice, so long as they don't interfere with other stations, and don't massively offend the listeners who discover them.
;-)
Since 802.11a and 802.11b traffic lives in parts of the spectrum where independent unlicensed transmissions are expected and are the norm, it might be possible to fly under the RIAA's radar with the following configuration:
- Set up a server with a 10.0.0.0/8 addressing space.
- DON'T hook it to the internet.
- Include a DHCP Server.
- Include a web page to describe what people have reached and allow links to software to listen.
- Include a submissions directory so anyone who wants to drop an MP3 or OGG on you, CAN.
- Play interesting music that YOU like, and even DJ the broadcast. (Voice changer might be desireable.)
Basically, all I'm doing is taking ideas presented in the movie "Pump Up the Volume" and thinking about how those ideas could be implemented using more modern methods. Done correctly, this could even be done with a mobile configuration in a vehicle.
'Cast Hard!
Each node might not know where the root of the tree is, but they do know who their parent is. If the RIAA said "tell us who your parent is or we'll assume you're the root", iteratively, they'd find the root PDQ. This contrasts with a network like Freenet, which is designed so that each node really doesn't know where content came from and therefore isn't of much help identifying its real origin. Mesh-structured networks in general also avoid the fragility inherent in tree-structured networks.
Streamer is not just reinventing the wheel; it's reinventing square wheels when round ones already exist.
Slashdot - News for Herds. Stuff that Splatters.
Please describe the operation of such a tool. Given encrypted communication between nodes, how do you determine from the outside whether any given node is a relay or source?
No more so than telephone companies have the "right" to eavesdrop on your conversations, or the post office to read your mail. Copying is not theft."Fundamentally sound" societies are those that recongize a diversity of values. "Fundamentally sound" societies recognize that sharing information is what makes us human. "Fundamentally sound" societies are not operated for the benefit of media conglomerates.
Tom Swiss | the infamous tms | my blog
You cannot wash away blood with blood
the full source isn't even included, it's missing header files.. as gpl says you need to include all source associated with the program.
Blah
If it worked. Which it doesn't
The GeekNights podcast is going strong. Listen!
It's also fairly untraceable because each streamer 'host' doesn't reveal any information about whether it is actually the transmitter or not, or where it is getting it's signal from.
I'm taking a guess here, but as long as you're still one of the upstream hosts serving an unauthorized/unroyaltied/unlicensed stream of audio, you might be shut down. Would it really matter if you were the root of a tree where the stream originated from? Even if you're not the root, you're copying and re-serving the stream yourself.
"Did you steal this music?"
"No, I just found this stream and I'm sharing it."
I'm at this moment trying out the software. I'm GRadio.
A tool to track a spanning tree across network backbones would not be hard to write; the broadcaster is simply the root of the tree.
Here is my first thought (maybe 20 seconds worth). The root of the tree is the encoder. Why shouldn't this node also receive a copy of the stream from one of it's downstream nodes? Effectively you have a large circle now, preferably as large as possible. As for identifying all of the nodes in the tree, the nodes may simply indicate whether they can accept new connections without divulging their neighbors. This prevents a trivial tree-walking at least.
A dingo ate my sig...
A friend of mine and I were talking about setting up an internet radio site (or at least a recurring program); as a result, I started following the whole CARP/webcasting royalty thing. I wrote letters (yes, actual, physical letters) to my Congressmen -- I even got a reply from Senator Gordon Smith (not a form letter-type reply, either). I was pleased to see the Librarion of Congress throw out the initial recommendation, but disappointed to see the revised recommednation get accepted.
The guys who wrote this program are completely playing into the RIAA's hands -- by basically stating that their intent is to screw the RIAA and avoid paying the fees, they give the RIAA more ammo to get even more draconian measures adopted.
I'm not clear why everyone thinks a P2P (ooh, buzzword time!) streaming radio solution is going to make the situation any better. Our energies are better spent talking to our representatives and showing them that internet radio promotes choice and diversity in music (both for RIAA-sponsored and non-RIAA sponsored artists), pointing out that lots of smaller business will have a positive effect on the economy (not only the RIAA, but ASCAP and BMI get more royalty fees from lots of small "stations"; plus people have to buy recording/mixing/broadcasting equipment, there's those broadband connections...) I have proof in my hand that at least one Senator will listen.
Jay (=
I'm doing okay so far. Had some problems configuring stuff earlier on, but seems to be working. It may depend on the OS (I've got W2K with SP1)
I find it sad that someone has come up with the idea of "pirate radio for the digital age." This means that streaming radio has lost its capacity of freedom of speech. What's really sad is that it didn't even need FCC deregulation for companies like Clear Channel and a massive power-hungry cartel known as the RIAA to move in and take over.
No more so than telephone companies have the "right" to eavesdrop on your conversations, or the post office to read your mail.
Not true. The government may need a warrant for certain types of searches, but searches which do not involve human interaction (Carnivore) do not need a warrant to determine if your traffic falls under its purview or not. All networks (including telcos) privately monitor if they suspect abuse (check your terms of service). At any rate, stealing copyrighted works is not freedom of speech and is not protected. Copying is not theft.
Most mature adults in our society would disagree - copying is theft if it done against the source's will and reduces the monetary value of their work (see the definition of fair use). Keep in mind that copyright even is listed *before* freedome of speech in the Constituion (which was not added until after ratificiation).
"Fundamentally sound" societies are those that recongize a diversity of values.
I agree, but there limits - your right to your values ends when you trample on my fundamental rights - not to be murdered, freedom from having my work stolen, etc. This is the basis for civilization.
AllCast have been doing this for quite a while, or at least thought about doing it back in 1996. And we`ve been experimenting for a few months too.
I think the biggest problem with p2p streaming is the fact that clients really need to upload more than they download; bandwidth is still expensive for most people, and somebody connecting via modem isn`t really going to be able to contribute anything back to the network.
At the moment our p2p client helps a bit with this in that it lets you get 2 channels from 2 different sources, ie Mono or Stereo, depending on how well connected you are. But one major improvement would be if the audio stream was somehow layered in a way that would allow you to build up audio "quality", eg. 1 connection gets you 24KBps, 2 = 48 KBps etc. Maybe this could be an extension of Ogg Vorbis?
I haven't seen a post on it so far, but I may have just missed it on a day that I wasn't checking /.
u rthurnet.com/
Anyway...
- a p2p live music sharing system that's just blown my mind.
- open source
- much more searchable than other such software
- transfers only high-quality 44.1/16 (shn-compressed) audio
- the traded artists want you to take part in it (all traded artists encourage taping/trading)
This is a wonderful piece of software, built by the people, benefits bands, and doesn't have jack to do with record companies.
I definitely suggest giving it a spin, you're likely to discover a band you'll love:
http://sourceforge.net/furthurnet
http://www.f
-Jackson
"A matter of internal security, the age old cry of the oppressor" - Jean Luc Picard
Streamer, anyone get it working?
All the channels seem to drop out, even the lowest 24k channels. Good idea, if it Worked.
I downloaded both the "streamer.zip" and the "streamer_source.zip" files which have links on the page.
streamer.exe is a console program that handles the network connections, and also is a basic web server interface, so you connect to your localhost IP (127.0.0.1) to the streamer port (8464).
I downloaded the Oddcast DSP plug-in for Winamp, and it seems to work ok.
This could easily be ported to *nix and other platforms. However, when compiling the Visual Studio project I get:
fatal error C1083: Cannot open include file: 'IAINLIB.h': No such file or directory
The author's e-mail account is also "IAIN", so I assume this is his own library of utility routines. I tried to work around it, and it appears this header has error handling and some necessary typedef declarations.
I wish the author would share these files at SourceForge.net to provide a forum for more discussion and easier distribution via FTP or CVS.
I would be an interested developer, and would contribute to this project in some way.
Suncoast Linux - Sarasota, FL
Isn't there something we can do that would be legally binding that could say something like "If you are law enforcement or RRIAA then your not allowed on this site"?
Isn't there something we can do to even block them from accessing resources?
if you claim a port number for your protocol you make it easy to block without looking for protocol tags within packet data.
allow your agents to run on any port, often including common ones such as 80, 22, 20, 21, 53, 500, 443, 8080, 8000, etc. (haven't looked at the software, if you're using udp; 53 and 500 are the only useful ones in that list, add other common udp ports [111, 113?])
if you use a unique port number you allow 10 year old network equipment to easily be configured to block your traffic.
(keeping a mix of port numbers and allowing users to view & modify theirs is important for local user firewall configs and for people behind firewalls that can't make outbound connections to specific ports)
additional feature: allow your software to connect through a normal http proxy. proxies that support SSL are the easiest. connect to them and send a 'CONNECT x.y.z.a:443\r\n' and be on your way.
Spam spam spam spam spam spam spam spam wonderful spam. (Sorry, but someone is trying to piggyback on my 15 mins of fame)
The reason your download speed drops when you're doing lots of upspeed is usually because either you're interfering with upstream TCP ACKs (which slows down your downstream), or you're running out of CPU or some memory buffer or other resource your drivers are using (which shouldn't happen at such as slow speed, but could.)
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
Half-duplex means you're only able to transmit or receive, but not able to do both at once. Ethernets work that way. DSL doesn't - lots of DSL and cable-modem services are asymmetric, which means that you get more bandwidth downstream than upstream, but you really can use both directions at once if your equipment supports it, which most does. You might be connecting your PC to your DSL modem using a 10mbps Ethernet in half-duplex mode, but both pieces of equipment have enough buffering that they can still keep the DSL pipe full. It's more likely that what's slowing your download speed is that if you hog the upstream with uploads, you're not leaving enough room for ACKs to the sites you're downloading from. In particular, you can send data to the DSL faster than it can actually transmit, so you can clog up its buffers (either in the ADSL modem itself, or more likely in one of the upstream ATM trunks that you're sharing on the way to the upstream router.) If you want to play with prioritization, you can reduce this effect a bit by keeping your ftp/http transmits a bit below your upstream bandwidth limits (if you know them - sometimes the bottleneck is farther upstream, though in DSL that's more an issue for downstream.)
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
Thankfully YANAL (you are not a lawyer). but I do agree with the rest of your post.
By using "Conspiracy" in that way, of course, you're muddying the term. This falls into the same misuse of speech as "Theft of Service", or "Pirating". It's making something *sound* illegal.
As long as free speech exists, I can tell someone how to load a shotgun and fire a shell. If my advice was used in the act of a crime, it's not conspiracy unless I had knowledge that a specific crime was going to take place. And if I'm stupid (read G. Gordon Liddy stupid) I can tell people over the airwaves that they ought to fire their rounds at the ATF when they come knocking at your door. That's still not conspiracy. Negligent? Perhaps. Conspirator? No.
So it appears to me that merely broadcasting a message telling people how to avoid detection by the RIAA/CIA/FBI/MPAA/BSA/ATF/DEA/SS/Scientologists doesn't quite qualify as conspiracy -- that is as long as code is still considered speech.
But, he will get a C&D by the RIAA.
http://www.petitiononline.com/nocarp/petition.html
Sign it and show the Librarian of Congress that he made a BAD DECISION!
[insert witty comment here]