Slashdot Mirror
Linux Games WIth Guns
ZaMoose writes: "Not to beat on the poor America's Army servers any further, but their sitrep for today featured the following interesting tidbit: "That's not all. We're also working on an in-game browser, linux port, and host of other features. Yes, we've been busy the past week!" (emphasis mine). For those not familiar with AA:Operations, it is a free (as in beer) first person shooter developed under the watchful eye of the US Army. It received mounds of praise at this year's E3 and was released to Windows users July 4th." Well, it says Linux server port, anyhow. And JD writes: "Apex Designs have announced that their GTA-style game Payback is coming to Linux. The port appears to already be fully playable as there is a status report here which includes some early screenshots.
(And their website doesn't require IE. :)"
Bah, who needs more than Nethack anyway?
Insert "back in my day, we had lines of text and we LIKED IT!"-type ranting here...
In other news, the US Army decided to scrap the Linux client port after Microsoft announced that it would be assuming control of OpenGL and discontinuing it, leaving only DirectX on Windows.
Microsoft only had the following statement: "All your 3D graphics libraries are belong to us."
The US Army was not available for comment.
Think nothing is impossible? Try slamming a revolving door.
hmm.. yep shure is a great game...
but my 3dfx with only 16mb won't run it,
blarg
They've either got paying jobs or they are fat slobs living in their parents' basements. The Army can't get the first and I'm not sure they want the second.
I have been pwned because my
Changelog:
0.1-3.5.89
"Osama Bill Laden" now has proper beard.
0.1-3.5.88
Changed OS Logos to "Axis of Evil" Flags.
0.1-2.7.34
Changed "Hand" cursor in XBill^H^H^H^H^HArmy of One to M-16 target.
Noone uses the Amiga :)
This currently is my biggest problem in building Linux systems for home users. Although I believe Linux has an excellent outlook for business and server type applications, the home market is a very big challenge. I'm interested in seeing what is going to happen with Xwine with this OpenGL situation. But only time will tell I guess.
Read the SITREP at the America's Army site: it says Linux server port, not client.
:wq
You'd think that the U.S. government would be able to put more resources towards this. Are all their programs underresourced like this?
<Joke>Imagine a version of Quake for America's Army players</Joke>
And come to think about it, is it really such a good idea for the government to fund a game like this when it has yet to be decided by a court whether or not games have influenced school shootings and other killings by teenagers?
Since when do courts decide the cause of human action?
What brilliantly twisted country has the United States of America become when it is deemed a necessary function of the Federal Government to provide murder-simulation software for the entertainment of the citizenry?
Please, just heap thousand-dollar bills on the ground and burn them. Delete them. Do ANYTHING but spend MY money on a game that is designed to simulate (as realistically as possible) the murder of human beings.
The only moral justification one could possibly come up with for this game is that it diverts funding from the actual murder of human beings.
the problem with my tax dollars being spend on this is that when it doesn't work on my system, I can't return it for a refund
Jesus saves souls and redeems them for valuable cash prizes
Am I the only one who sees the irony in this? What kind of subliminal message will people get while playing this game?
"How do I join the terrorist side?"
"You can't, you are always a terrorist"
"But I look like a US Soldier?"
"There is no difference... "
It really depends, it seems a certain company sees this industry as a way to hold on to and control a market, just incase Linux become too much of an active threat. But either way, game AI and interaction could very well become the basis of virtual interactive worlds in the future. Where will you go on vaction?
I just checked the website and it says linux *SERVER* port". I can't find anywhere where it just says "linux port" so I see no indication of any possible client version for linux.
It is both funny and interesting.
Don't moderate flamebait as Troll. Know the difference or you will be Meta-moderated.
Who else get's a tinge of 1984 reading this? Government-sponsored violence games...?
(Well, maybe I'm just being paranoid, as I've only just read it...)
I doubt, therefore I may be.
If you're always a terrorist in the game it's gonna affect the game flow.
Every few minutes the battle halts and everyone has to pray towards Mecca. That's gonna suck bigtime.
Apparently the army has never been to a Linux convention.
-bugg
Story I submitted that got rejected follows. Yeah, it's off-topic. Bite me.
The New York Times tells us (after we register for free) that Gnutella developer Gene Kan has committed suicide. Let's see, he was young (25) and just over a year ago saw the company he started bought by Sun Microsystems. It would be wrong to jump to conclusions here. It would also be wrong to not start asking questions.
Is this truly the only Earth I can live on?
The funny thing is, ZaMoose quoted the website, but cut out that most important word, "linux SERVER port". Here's the real quote.
Hopefully next time timothy will actually visit the web page linked, and make sure that at least the emphasised, bold words correspong to reality.
Hmmm, did anyone actually read the article ?
Is says :
That's not all. We're also working on an in-game browser, linux server port, and host of other features.
echo '[q]sa[ln0=aln80~Psnlbx]16isb572CCB9AE9DB03273snlbxq' |dc
It's free for me, I've never paid tax in the US.
-Yarn - Rio Karma: Excellent
I read that the game cost about $7 million to make. The 2002 US defense budget is $328.9 billion. So, the amount of money spent on this game would have paid for (assuming I got my math right) 11 minutes of operating the US Armed Forces during 2002. Big deal. Also consider that the US Army (and other branches!) have a hell of a lot of advertising going on, on TV, at movie theaters, in magazines, you name it. Those things cost more, and are just as much propaganda, as this game.
Mod down posts with a "Free Mac Mini/iPod" sig, they're spam!
The server runs in command line mode, so it should run pretty easy under winex. It even uses the Unreal 2003 engine, before the Unreal 2003 game is even out. But don't expect the game to run on your older linux boxes, the game runs on a 800mhz/gf2 basic machine with about 20fps in 800x600. On my AMD 1800/gfti500 I get about 40-50 in 1024x768 with every gfx option turned on. And boy the gfx are the best out, (until doom3!) Skins are handled nicely, where no matter what side you are, your always Americans. The enemy is either arabs, or normal soldiers without backpacks. You can run, jog, walk or take baby steps and each affects your shooting and sound. Walk slow hunched down, or lie on your stomach (and roll left/right) and you can snipe an enemy or surprise ambushed. Very realistic. (Thou we do need a knife in the game.)
:)
And if you like CS, you will really like this. This game isn't CS where you can jump and shoot an awp and kill someone, you have to plan, ambush, take aim, act as a team. The levels are awesome, the HQ mission, where you have to invade a camp and rescue a POW, is fantastic. The tunnel level has a very detailed collapsed ends with cars trapped, where you have to take out the terrorists and not let any escape. The mount mckenna mission is nicely detailed, you have 2 teams, honor or loyalty, and must capture and defend 3 points. Surprising how many people think this is quake3, and Die
And they are going to release special missions, (For free!), where you can train in special ops, sharp shooting, navy seals, etc. Im sure each branch of the armed services wants a mission pack for them.
BTW, not sure how Homelan got to host all the servers (Are they they only game hosting service out?) But they seem to on top of it, switching servers around so people can play. Thou 4th of july was a bad time to release, 500,000 people couldn't play, only 10 servers and buggy code. Hopefully a patch will be out soon, oh yea, that's this slashdot topic!
"This was an honest disagreement about accounting procedures..." - President Bush - The art of spin control.
Besides, who knows what kinds of hidden messages the Army could be putting in these games to influence the youth of America.
Who knows what type of hidden messages they're putting on the TV? Or on the radio? Or in the clouds? (they have complete control over the weather, you know.)
There's no solid evidence of any effective hidden messages. If you can survive the propoganda of school and TV and movies and radio and billboards, I'm sure you can survive the propaganda of America's Army.
You raise a really good question. My guess is that this game will never get the blame though.
Ever since 9/11, every news outlet has bent over backwards to avoid casting the military in a bad light. There was the small furor over "could this have been prevented?", but hardly a peep of criticism over what's going on has leaked out of the major news outlets. Nope, we can plan to invade Iraq and whatnot without any questions.
Everyone knows this game is a blatant piece of propaganda. Not that this makes it a bad thing (I liken it to "Black Hawk Down" in a way), but the fact that it comes straight out of the military means that it'll be dodged in favor of Doom 3 or GTA 3 or the like (most likely the latter, I'd guess).
The news media is so consolidated and conservative, there's no way they'd risk offending viewers or advertisers (the Army spends a lot on ads every year) when there are plenty of other easy targets should another school shooting spree occur. What, with the Internet and pornography and movies and music and other video games and drugs and parents and peer preassure aren't there enough things to blame for some kid's behavior?
"I may not have morals, but I have standards."
By your own logic, we shouldn't fund U.S. Army commercials either. Commericals are, after all, propaganda paid for by Americans.
The theory behind this game is that the cost/benefit ratio will be much higher than traditional advertising. That is, it costs X dollars to recruit one soldier from commercials, and something less than X per recruit from this video game. All else being equal, this would in fact save American's tax money.
The argument is whether or not this provides more cost effective than traditional "propaganda." If it is, your concern is moot. If not, I'll agree with you.
"God is a comedian playing to an audience too afraid to laugh." -Voltaire
This "game" only amounts to taxpayer funded propaganda by the US Army
Is that so bad? I mean really - the game is cool in case you haven't played it. Nice and fun. I would MUCH rather have the army spending money on something like this than buying a SINGLE 30-second ad during the superbowl. Judging by the demand it also seems to be a much greater success than any previous army type propoganda.
Besides which having the gov't develop cool computer games is the last thing we want to discourage.
Every player in that game is US soldier and terrorist at the same time. It only depends on the point of view.
Since someone tries to sue the game manufacturers. You can get off your high horse now.
"She's a West Texas girl, just like me" - G.W Bush Iraqis
As Linux is affiliated with Communism, you can only play as the Red Army in the game ;-)
training and recruitment. by distributing this and saying it's realistic people who like the game will say well i can do this for real in the army. plus this can also be used for non-field training. the army isn't some magical force that just can grab people and send them into combat.
As a guy who server 4 years in the Army, I can't "avoid your propaganda at all costs." Especially when you're sitting at +5. :P
... could it have been spent on better things? Probably. The game is hugely popular it turns out ... will it improve the Army's recruitment problem? I doubt it. Will it improve the perception of the Army with America's youth? Yes, for the same reason Saving Private Ryan and Blackhawk Down did.
... by the way, they're still doing it right now in places like Afghanistan.
... but damn it, these guys are due.
.... nothing more, nothing less.
Yes, the game cost taxpayer money
The Army is trying to portray itself as a professional organization, where a soldier has many educational opportunities and other benefits that most of them would not have otherwise. They're trying to change the typical perception from "People who join the Army out of high school are losers, and had no choice." to "People who choose the Army are doing their country a great service and are fighting for our rights." When the shit hits the fan, the soldiers are the ones who pay the price
In the grand scheme of things, the game cost almost nothing. Ask a Vietnam Vet sometime of the reception they got when they came home. I guarantee it wasn't the patriotic flag waving you see today. (Everyone's a couch patriot). It's PR ploy, that's for sure
One day, I was walking in a freaking toy store, and there was an action figure "Infantry Platoon Leader". I looked at it with some friends, and we were like "Holy shit, we're an action figure!". This game is the same thing --- an action figure for gamers, that's all it is
Think of the costs of this game as the fee for living in a free country. Now, get off your pedestal and enjoy it like everyone else, it's only a game.
Yes, of course all terrorists are Islamic
Yeah, FARC and IRA have been busy killing loads of Americans, too. Like 9/11. Oops, Islamic extremists. Ok, Pan Am. Sorry, Islamic extremists again. USS Cole? Muslims. Embassy bombings? Muslims. 1993 WTC bombing? Muslims. 2000 LAX bombing attempt? Muslims. I won't even get the numerous murderous acts committed against Israel, since a surprising number of people seem to feel that is justified.
It may not be PC to say the main terrorist threat against the US comes from Muslims, specifically middle eastern Muslims, but it's the truth. And no, that's not the same thing as saying all Muslims are terrorists. The actions from the people in that region over the last few decades has certainly lent loads to the image that the whole region is nothing but a breeding ground for terrorists.
The news media is so consolidated and conservative, there's no way they'd risk offending viewers or advertisers
Get your news from the BBC. It's not perfect, but it's the best news service there is and since they don't have advertising they are not biased. And believe it or not they actually have a legal mandate from the Queen of England to be completely neutral and unbiased on all subjects! Those crazy Brits...
United States Marine Corps!
Well, since research has shown that videogames can decrease intelligence, I guess it's perfect for the army.. dont want the recruits to think for themselves.. let's give'em games. //rdj
No one can understand the truth until he drinks of coffee's frothy goodness.
--Sheikh Abd-Al-Kadir, 1587
Ofcourse. To defend the GPL against certain terrorist companies that try to Take Over The World.
karma capped
Rainbow 6
Ok, assuming that you are correct and the region is indeed a breeding ground for terrorists (I personally think you're wrong, but I'll play along), why do you suppose this is?
Think about it.
A few months ago, I went through [most of] basic training at Ft. Benning, in a platoon with a bunch (as in, all but 3) of geeks, though not all of them were Linux geeks. I noticed a strange domination of Cisco yuppies with Novell skillz, harping on about Win2k. Plenty of UNIX programmers, though, which is what matters.
These geeks were in Ft. Benning (which normally only trains infantry) because Ft. Jackson (whom normally trains these sorts) was booked solid.
Thus, I'd like to say that not only is the Army hiring Slashdot-reading linux-using teenagers, but that they're recruiting them in droves.
And, yes, it -did- look like a Linux convention for the first week or so, but they were all looking and -acting- like soldiers within a couple of months. Even the former three-pack-a-day gamers were partaking in nonsensical pushup competitions, and the platoon was top in the company for fitness scores.
It was a strange transition to see, watching the flabby, pale, quiet Linux kids turn into hardcore rope-climbing, gun-toting freaks.
And in a few months, when those same kids are done training at Ft. Gordon and get shipped out to the front line as communications geeks, I'll be very glad to have them there, while I sit on my once-again flabby, civilian ass and read Slashdot.
Kid-proof tablet..
Palestine's attacks on Israel are at least as Justified as Israel's attacks on Palestine, considering that Israel has stolen most of the land from Palestinians.
Note that I am a born and bread USA citizen. I am not Muslim, nor do my ancestors come from the Middle East... let me try to open your eyes... (note the list below is by no means exhaustive, complete, or detailed)
What about all those Muslims who had their mosques fire bombed? What about all those who looked like they might be from the ME, the ones who were killed, harrassed, etc... by Americans?
What about all of the Kurds and Iranians who were killed by the USA using Iraq as a proxy? Giving killing machines and technology and giving them the go-ahead-and-kill-them-iranians is surely a morally questionable act.
What about the attacks on Iraq, which killed thousands of innocent civilians? Oops, American extremists.
Ok, that Iranian civilian passenger (747 sized btw) airplane that was shotdown by the USA? Sorry, American extremists again.
How about the bombing of Afganistan, which killed hundreds of innocent civilians and lead to the starvation of hundreds more? Need I remind you, it was the work of the good ol US of A!
What about the USA's use of tried and true imperialism in the middle east? Its all about oil when it comes to the USA and the ME. Damn their holy land! Damn their Mecca! WE NEED OUR OIL!
I won't even get into the numerous murderous acts committed by the USA using Israel as a proxy against Palestine, since a surprising number of people seem to feel that is justified. Wait, those aren't USA supplied war machines? Thats not USA nuke technology? That wasn't Prez Dubya calling Sharon a man of peace, while at the same time calling Arafat a corrupt leader? Do a little search on "Sharon war crimes" in google. Not necessarily the kind of guy that I would call a "man of peace".
It may not be PC to say that the main terrorist threat against the Muslim world in the Middle East comes from the USA, specifically jingoists like yourself, who are too small minded and selfish to realize that their shit stinks too. Your justifications for killing are the same justifications that your "enemy" uses. Until people begin to realize that such reasoning is flawed, the violence will never end.
What surprises me is how people like you can't see the forest for the trees.
A wise man once said, "Let he who has not sinned throw the first stone". I hope you can try to think outside of what the TV has told you. The way you think is biased towards a particular political agenda. The way you think contributes to the furthering of violence in this world. Has the USA sinned against the Muslim nations of the middle east? Most definitely! So why are we so quick to throw stones?
"Because we have a right to defend ourselves", you say, in justification of waging war. "Because we have a right to defend ourselves", the Muslim extremists say, in justification of waging war against the USA. And the circle goes round and round till we all fall down.
Every few minutes the battle halts and everyone has to pray towards Mecca. That's gonna suck bigtime.
Sure, every few minutes the terrorists stop and pray, and the US team, who appear in the game as NFL players, stop for a commercial break.
Was Noam Chomsky one of the programmers?
LMAO - have you seen bbc coverage recently?
They are Tony's bitch.
Depends on what side of the political spectrum you're on. Labour politicians have complained that the BBC is against them. The good thing about the BBC is that it is reasonably well protected from political interference -- if it wasn't I'm sure Thatcher would have shut it down or sold it.
why do you suppose this is?
Ineffectual religious leaders who face being made irrelevant by the onslaught of technology and social progress. They fear basic human rights because it is the specter of equality of the sexes that threatens to unleash the pent up anguish of the long subordinated and denigrated women. They see in America and Israel obvious scapegoats to heap all of their society's ills upon. They fear education because it threatens to undermine their monopoly on wisdom and knowledge. The West glorifies everything that scares them the most.
They keep their subjects as dumb and seething as possible in order to legitimize their power. By giving their subjects a target, they have sown the seeds for terrorism.
why do you suppose this is?
Perhaps due to the political and intellectual repression in the region.
A wise man once said, "Let he who has not sinned throw the first stone".
No, Jesus said, "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone."
Since Christians are washed in the blood of the Lamb, they are without sin. Christians can cast as many stones as they like with impunity.
Oh really. Please don't use the word 'Murder' when you mean 'Warfare'. Whatever your views on the training capabilities of computer games (mine are that if you think teaching people that the best way to win a gunfight is to run in circles around the opposition having developed the ability to see through walls then you are a f*cking moron, but thats just me) or the morality of Bush's tactics in dealing with terrorists (here I'm against their 'whatever you do, its better to kill a couple hundred foreigners just in case, rather than investigate if they might actually be terrorists' 'strategy'), calling the game a 'murder-simulation' is just tabloid sensationalism.
"I Know You Are But What Am I?"
I think you missed the parent's point, sir. In effect, it is our fault. Or rather, America's fault. Had we not done what we had done during the cold war, most of these leaders would never have entered into power. Had we not been so eager to strike a blow against Communism, as we are now so eager to do against "terrorism," then most of the leaders who have opposed us these last few years would never have come to power. Furthermore, it's obvious that we are going to see the results of our current meddling five or ten years down the road, when Afghanistan, having killed it's current leader, will simply turn to the next zealot with a gun and a cause.
Silly person! ;-)
1) I am not a US citizen... I never paid for this game. Thus I do consider it free.
2) It was developed to aid the US forces in tactical learning... it is a cheap superior teaching aid. They only decided to give a bit back to the people who funded it!
3) It is a propoganda aid for poor silly countries like mine to make us think that the US may not be so bad after all...
Might I suggest you try Counter-Strike? Or Rainbow 6? Or SWAT 3? Or Infiltration? Or Rogue Spear? Or indeed America's Army?
Frankly, these days I look forward to that rare FPS that _doesn't_ involve a Terrorist v Counter-terrorist scenario!
"I Know You Are But What Am I?"
Nope. Your tax dollars. My taxes are in Euros.
Sig (appended to the end of comments I post, 54 chars)
A large misconception about this game is that it's "free". When you consider the fact that it was paid for with our tax dollars, you can throw that idea out the window.
:)
Not for those of us who aren't USian as has already been pointed out
Besides, I'd rather see as much military cash as possible being spent on computer games if the alternatives are to spend it on bombs and bullets.
Please don't use the word 'Murder' when you mean 'Warfare'.
All war is murder - it just depends on which side you're on as to who you see as the perptrator.
Country X goes to war with Country Y
X's citizens justify it by saying Y is murdering innocent people
Y's citizens justify it by saying X is murdering innocent people
Who is right? Well, both are. If everyone from both sides agrees that murder is being performed, then murder must be being performed. Cogito ergo sum.
Bob
Listen to my latest album here
Aaah, I see. Its the 'our soldiers'=='innocent people' argument. Yes, I've seen that used as well, so if you really want to stretch it then you could possibly justify that. My basis for being offended at the source comment was that at no point in the game are you really given the opportunity to shoot at anyone other than terrorists, 'real' terrorists whose objective is to shoot you or plant a bomb, rather than the somewhat looser definition frequently used of 'whoever happens to wander in front of our boys guns'. No implementation of hostages yet that I've seen, and killing your fellow soldiers (team killing) causes the player to get chucked out of the game, which is hardly rewarding them.
Whatever your opinion of the morals of the game, its not quite Postal, Carmageddon or GTA. Besides, if you do believe that any killing in war is murder, then the expenditure of Army budget on a bunch of games rather than bullets strikes me as a good thing anyway. There is no shortage of games like this (many are even free mods for FPS games that the players will have already purchased as well), and its money that would have otherwise been spent of TV or Cinema adverts for the Army. Therefore I don't see a big threat.
"I Know You Are But What Am I?"
Now there's an idea I like! Next time we have to fight a war, we'll just ship the enemy a bunch of computers and challenge them to a game of CS.
// TODO: fix sig
To quote Ahhonld, "Yes, but they were all bad."
Seriously though, all these complaints calling this a "murder-simulation" seem to be making one serious error. They don't take into account that some people are just evil and should be killed.
Sorry to bust your bubble, but take off the rose colored glasses and look around. The world is not this magical place were everyone is really good inside and they just can't help themselves from blowing up inncoent people because of thier circumstances.Free Mac Mini Yeah, it's
That's not all. We're also working on an in-game browser, linux server port, and host of other features. Yes, we've been busy the past week! More servers, providing for the addition of community servers, more missions, and more Army training! But that's just the tip of the iceberg, troops! Stay tuned for more! [Bacchus]
/. subscription.
Sigh. i'm not renewing my
"May I remind you of the countless military actions against countries in the middle east (not limited to middle eastern countries) for the US's personal gain? Oil anyone?"
Countless? You'll be hard pressed to name one. Kuwait, for example. This action was 100% anti-imperialist, and not for the US's personal gain.
" Oil anyone?"
A simplistic, cartoonish approach to things that does not hold out when you look at real events and motivations.
Sorry to disagree with you but it that past spending on bombs and bullets that enable you to be speaking and writing in English today instead of German or Russian or Chinese. Granted the military and military spending has not always served the 'higher' purpose, that of allowing a 'mostly' free country to stay that way but the country is still only run by humans. As such mistakes will always be made but I would much rather those mistakes be made in a democratic county then any other. At least we have the opportunity to keep an eye on things. How much disagreement does China tolerate with its citizens? How about North Korea? I will gladly support the government continuing to spend the small percentage of tax dollars (in comparison to the total budget) on military related tasks and supplies. On average, it is that spending that allows me to own my car, house, toys, etc. and what allows us to disagree on things like this without worrying about jack-booted storm troopers kicking in our doors and dragging us out into the night to be never heard from again!
I have to use this cause I can't afford a real sig...
An interesting feature of the America's Army FPS game is that *both* sides play American troops.
The missions are set up so that you're either attacking or defending a base, and your team is always the Americans, and the other team always looks like terrorists. This creates an interesting unstated message to the game: American troops are exactly the same and have the same objectives as terrorists. I understand why the army doesn't want to encourage people roll-playing the axis of evil, but I'm not sure if this is the subtext they want to create either.
Of course it is a realistic portrayal of the way asymetrical warfare works. Everyone thinks they are fighting to defend freedom.
In Capitalist America, bank robs you!
Its not an anger problem, its the fact that we are the police to the world. Ask the friggin Euro's to send some muscle in to back UN decisions and all the british are the only ones who step up, well of course those two french warplanes im sure make a big difference. Out of those 3,000,000 how many have been saved in places like Somalia, and Albania where people were getting slaughtered, and when the world decides to put a stop to it who's the first one in? We may have not been perfect in the past but its always our ass on the line whenever some other foreigners start getting pushed around.
I am by no means defending the nazi or fundamentalist ideologies. My point about Poland, was that in the beginning, the Nazis were acting within the bounds of historical precedent. Al-Queida aren't fighting for freedom in the American sense, but rather the freedom to organize their society the way they see fit, without intrusion from other cultures.
In Capitalist America, bank robs you!
Take a class on Computability and you'll find that he has created many proofs/theorems and structures that are quite significant to the field of Computer Science. The Chomsky Hierarchy is a good example.
However you feel about the man's politics (which I disagree with a lot myself) has nothing to do with the fact that he's a brilliant man.
Happy people make bad consumers.
If it wasn't for America you'd either be speaking Italian, German, Russian, or maybe even Turkish, take your pick. Just imagine what your life would be like if America hadn't been there to stop Mussolini and Hitler? Maybe the Russians would have defeated Germany in the end, but would you be better off if they had? You're free to speak your mind here on this forum in no small part because America was there to defend that freedom 60 years ago. Or what if NATO didn't exist and Greece and Turkey were left to their own devices in dealing with one another? How would you like to have to go to war? Don't complain about America stepping in and telling assholes to behave themselves when your own country was engaging in a war by proxy with Turkey in the balkans, a war we had to put a stop to ourselves because the nations of Europe couldn't seem to get their act together.
As for your statement that you're a non-racist, you could have fooled me. First you complain that America is multi-racial (your neighbour is from india and your wife from Africa), then say there is no such thing as a "pure" American. Unlike Greece, being American doesn't describe a single genetic or even an ethnic background. Being an American means that you live here and are a contributing member of society. You don't even have to be born here. I doubt that anyone where you were from would call me a Greek if I moved there regardless of how long I lived there or how well I spoke the language. I assume that by describing yourself as a non-racist you're implying that I am one. Where you get that idea I just can't figure out. You seem to be able to write english well enough, can you read it as well?
As for your ideas about American history, you really need some schooling. The United States is currently the oldest continuous government in the world. There are older nations to be sure, but none of the governments that were in power in 1788 are still around today in the same form they were then. Our system has not changed. That kind of stability, especially when you consider the unparalleled expansion and growth we've enjoyed, says that we are good at solving our own problems. Youth violence is a figment of the media's imagination. We didn't "invade" Vietnam, we were invited by the south Vietnamese government. We didn't even invade north Vietnam. We did kill over a million NVA and VC troops (too few if you ask me), but we did so in the process of attempting to preserve south Vietnam's soverignty, hardly an invasion. As for our reaons for doing so, they were a bit deeper than a desire to be "macho." Our war in Vietnam was a war by proxy with the Soviet Union, much like the recent conflict in the balkans was a war by proxy between Greece and Turkey. A war which, by the way, we had to step in and put a stop to because the "european community" couldn't seem to do the job itself. I'm not sure what your description of the US as a "bastard nation" is supposed to mean exactly. Bastard means illegitimate, and no government is more legitimate than ours, at least if you subscribe to the ideas of Thomas Jefferson or John Locke.
Just so you know, what we're doing now is not called playing "good cop." We're done doing that because its been made abundantly clear to us that it doesn't work. Trying to make everyone like us and feel all warm and fuzzy about the US is what led to the WTC and pentagon being bombed (a plane loaded with fuel IS a bomb) So instead we're now playing BAD COP. If you want to understand the nature of our current foreign policy, read this book and all will be clear. You might not like the United States, but then you're in no position to act on your dislike beyong harassing tourists. This means that your opinion, like that of europe in general when it comes to the US and what we do internationally, is essentially irrelevant. If you REALLY hate us so much, I suggest that you start a petition to have Greece withdraw from NATO and cease all trade with US based companies. Or you could take the easy way and just move to Cuba. That is what life is like where the US doesn't extend its power.
Muslim community leaders warn of backlash from tomorrow morning's terrorist attack.
But I decided my contribution to the world was not going to be propigating what I believe to be the worst mistake of mankind.
Oh, come on. I know Linux isn't the best OS, but it really isn't that bad...
Now, a Linux Unreal II should be worth waiting for.
-m
Also, I think that a seven million dollar ad campaign that provides an entertaining outlet, instead of the stupid and boring "Army of One" ads i see during most tv shows I watch is money well spent.
Spend 7 mill, and then release, keeping some staff online for updates and whatnot, or spend 10 million on stupid ads in every medium available for eternity. Which sounds like the better way to spend your money?
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A direct result of the Taliban using the civilians as human sheilds. Starvation? The US intervention actually headed off famine, and did not cause it.
Yeah. That wasn't a wedding the US blew up, it was a bunch of taliban soldiers dressing up civilians to look like a wedding and holding them in front of them. That's it. And the Canadian soldiers bombed.. they were also being used as human shields, right?
"Do a little search on "Sharon war crimes" in google."
Yes. There are plenty of sites run by antisemitic kooks making up all kinds of things.
If you can't see that Sharon is not a great leader and should be brought up on war crime charges, you have to learn to see through the bullshit they feed you on TV. It should make you wonder why most of the world thinks the opposite of the United States on this one. Mind you Arafat is no saint either, and the quicker we get both of these criminals out of power, the sooner there is an actual chance for peace in that area. Also once Israel fully complies with UN resolution 242 , it will go a long ways to the peace process. Right now they have complied about 91%... IE: They turned over control of a egyptian desert back tyo egypt. The land that is actually worth anything they still hold. Israel says We complied.. Close enough, but in fact they've basically done nothing except leave a desert.
US actions in the middle-east have been 100% anti-imperialist. You have it backwards.
imperialism Pronunciation Key (m-pîr--lzm)
n.
1. The policy of extending a nation's authority by territorial acquisition or by the establishment of economic and political hegemony over other nations.
Knocking out the current government (one they helped get there in the first place) to replace it with what will be a puppet government for the US sounds pretty imperialistic to me. And then stating they are going to remove Saddam and friends from power, to do the same thing? I think
he has it dead on.
"What about all of the Kurds and Iranians who were
killed by the USA using Iraq as a proxy?"
It didn't happen. Check again.
and
"I won't even get into the numerous murderous acts committed by the USA using Israel as a proxy against Palestine"
Don't go into it, as what you claim does not exist.
Ignorance is bliss isn't it? US has been using other countries to fight wars that they would lose to much face fighting for a long time now. This isn't exclusive to the US either. China does the same, and all superpowers have been doing it over time.
No, the Muslim extremists attack the US because we stand for freedom, and defend Jewish people from the attempts by Muslim extemists to exterminate them.
No, they attack the US for a few reasons. Use, exploitation and abuse of other contries to achive their higher standing of living (This also is not UScentric nor is it anything new. Exploitation is something every superpower makes use of, all through history). Their use of military power for lower cost imports, usually oil. Add in some jealousy, some other bad US foreign policy, a pissing match or two, and some crazy mother fucker pissed off because the US stepped on his homeland, and you've got a whole lotta hate being generated at you.
But in all fairness, if you're American you don't get to see much of both sides in the media. As an aside, you do sound like a prime candidate for head guinnie pig in some mind control experiments.
For a good time call www.sawkie.com
Actually the claim of oldest form of government is pretty debateable. The Isle of Man, for instance claims a continuous parliament of over 1000 years, Certainally there are others who could make a similar claim, for instance the English westminster system has been pretty solid since 1678. Still, it's pretty academic, since government is fundamentally a changing process.
As for the rest, the opinion of the rest of the world seems pretty much to be that if the US wants to take sides and beat the crap out of one side in some piss-poor third world conflict then nobody is going to stop them, but it still doesn't make the action moral. Politically convenient and domestically popular, for sure, but morality's a tricky thing when you're slaughtering natives by the mass-grave load.
Jesus Christ, timothy... You don't even proofread the headline anymore?!
Linux Games WIth Guns
Yeah, that looks really professional.
"Wow, you're like some kind of superhero able to ward off happiness and success at every turn."
-- Ryan Stiles
Is this anything like "The Last Starfighter"? The Army is monitoring everyone's scores, so if you kill enough terrorists, 20 minutes later a recruiter is knocking at your front door.
Amusing side note:
When in high school, we had to take the Armed Services Vocational Aptitude Battery (ASVAB). I did pretty well, and soon recruiters were calling me from every branch of the armed forces. One day, my girlfriend was over and we were sitting on my bed when the phone rang. I picked up.
"Hello?"
"Hi! Have you ever considered joining the National Guard?"
At this point, my GF reaches over and tickles me on the side. I start laughing and immediately an idea pops into my head.
"Brian, STOP it!!" *girlish giggle*
"Who is that, your brother?"
"No... he's my... umm... friend."
I did not receive a SINGLE call from the military after that. This means that somewhere there is a database accessible to all branches of the armed services which has my name and a little checkbox marked "gay".
bytesmythe
Hypocrisy is the resin that holds the plywood of society together.
-- Scott Meyer
If propoganda doesn't work
I never said propoganda didn't work. I said hidden messages didn't work.
why would the millitary invest so much money in developing a game if they didn't anticipate a return?
Why do you treat that as evil, though? Yes, they expect a return. That doesn't mean that they're using nefarious mind control tricks; from what I've played, it looks like a large part is trying to calm people's fears about boot camp. You can choose how or whether it effects you.
You make it sound like the Americans acted alone. They acted in concert with a host of other nations. The game isn't called axis & allies for nothing. The British also had something to do with Mussolini and Hitler. Americans are more responsible for nuking the hell out of millions of Japanese civilians.
Being an American means that you live here and are a contributing member of society.[chuckle] Tell that to the INS. I am both of these things, but not an American ;)
Same with most countries. But have you seen this process in action? It's non-trivial to say the least.
Saved for posterity:As for your statement that you're a non-racist, you could have fooled me.
I see....
trying to make everyone like us and feel all warm and fuzzy about the US is what led to the WTC and pentagon being bombedThat was a really tragic thing that happened that day. But do you know why Osama Bin Laden particularly despises the US? It has more to do with American interests in Saudi Arabia. (Don't get me wrong, Osama Bin Laden is responsible for some truly heinous acts)
read this bookI've never read this book, but isn't that Machiavelli's book on how to maintain your power? Rule with an iron fist, be foul while seeming fair and that whole lot? You really meant to quote this?
FYI, I am a non-american, temporarily living in the US. As such, I get to experience the American propoganda machine first-hand. You may not realize this, but american media is completely skewed towards US interests. (If you are really interested, I know of a few interesting examples of this)
Have you ever been to Manhattan? People there sometimes act like they're the center of the world. American seem to sometimes forget that the rest of the world exists too.
I read an article once, that 9-11 shocked a lot of Americans because, "they were surprised and shocked to realize that the rest of the world does not view them as they view themselves."
To fill in the blanks, it is a common perception that Americans are ignorant trigger-happy self-important bullies.
--
#include <malloc.h>
free(your.mind);
How do they do that? It means that all the scenarios have to be symmetrical. But most modern warfare is asymmetrical, with the two sides having quite different goals, tactics, doctrine, etc. The Army's own real training (Ft. Irwin / NTC) stresses this.
Any advertising costs money. If we are going to approve of the military using our tax money to do recruitment advertising, this is as good a way as any - in fact, it's probably much better and cheaper than television spots.
I'd like to see a breakdown of their advetising budget... perhaps it's time to pull-out the FOIA form letter and make a request. Has anyone out there done so recently?
Come to think of it, as an added bonus, it actually does impart some good teamworking skills on players, which is more than I can say for a TV ad.
Maybe I am just being paranoid, but has any body consider that this game may contain spyware enabling the CIA to increase their spying powers?
Ever heard of plausible deniability? Ever heard of hiding a needle in a haystack? People snoop around in game binaries (for reverse engineering, for one) all the time, and anything that comes up will be immediately connected to the US government. Stick it in Windows, and you have it on a billion desktops, and it's very hard to definitively paste it on anyone.
There are some countries that have killed many times that number of people, in the last 50 years, within their own borders. You don't even have to start looking at the wars they have fought elsewhere.
In fact it is pretty amazing that the US has managed to fight so many wars, in so many places, and has only killed around 3,000,000 people (and most of those in one war - Vietnam). I think it gives some indication of how hard the US tries to avoid killing civillians.
If you take a look at the major wars of the 20th Century, that the US became involved in, it is also hard to find any that the US either started or even joined from the start. Most of these wars had been going for years before the US became involved. I think this gives some indication of how reluctant the US has been to get involved in wars.
Consider all of the biggest non-war killing sprees of the 20th century. They are really spread around pretty evenly. You can find them in Western Europe (the holocaust), eastern Europe (various efforts by Lenin and Stalin), Asia (the great leap forward, the cultural revolution, Cambodia), Africa (Biafra, Rawanda), Asia Minor (Armenia), and the list goes on. What is striking about this list is that none of them took place in the Americas, and the US had nothing to do with any of them.
There's no solid evidence of any effective hidden messages. If you can survive the propoganda of school and TV and movies and radio and billboards, I'm sure you can survive the propaganda of America's Army.
Ok, someone had to say it: "It is a three-pronged attack: subliminal, liminal, and superliminal."
"Superliminal?""
"HEY YOU, JOIN THE NAVY!"
The missions are set up so that you're either attacking or defending a base, and your team is always the Americans, and the other team always looks like terrorists. This creates an interesting unstated message to the game: American troops are exactly the same and have the same objectives as terrorists. I understand why the army doesn't want to encourage people roll-playing the axis of evil, but I'm not sure if this is the subtext they want to create either.
Um, yes that's the message in the game, but that's also life in the military. What do you think happens in war? Both sides are fighting to win, and there's one of two things that could happen. Either you're attacking or defending. We're in Afghanistan and granted few of the opposing forces are attacking us so we are on the total offense. Think about what would happen if they got a large force and started coming after our bases. Wouldn't we have to defend? Yes. In war there are not definite lines drawn on who does what. Both sides are going to be doing the same thing: eliminate the other side (or make them take enough casualties that they give up) and keep your side from being eliminated. That's war. What would you have us do? Not invade? Or not defend our bases when we are attacked? That kind of defeats the purpose of war now doesn't it?
"Well kids, you tried your best, and you failed. The lesson is, never try." -Homer Simpson
They fear basic human rights because it is the specter of equality of the sexes that threatens to unleash the pent up anguish of the long subordinated and denigrated women.
Check. Glass ceiling, old boy's network. True, it's not the same scale, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
They see in America and Israel obvious scapegoats to heap all of their society's ills upon.
Check. Plenty of scapegoats. It's the commies. It's the terrorists. Whatever.
They fear education because it threatens to undermine their monopoly on wisdom and knowledge.
Check. How do you explain a 75% aproval rating for the current President? Ignorance and chest beating is how I choose to explain it. It fits with my agenda.
The West glorifies everything that scares them the most.
s/West/terrorist nations/ Check. This seems to fit in well with the whole scapegoat thing. Give a dis-similar group a common enemy, and watch the complaints of normal life (insufficient health care, traffic congestion, poor educational system, etc.) just fade away.
They keep their subjects as dumb and seething as possible in order to legitimize their power. By giving their subjects a target, they have sown the seeds for terrorism.
Not all of us are dumb and/or seething. Enough are that it doesn't seem to matter.
Yeah. It's flamebait. Maybe even tinfoil hat propoganda. It's not intentional, just seemingly unavoidable. Moderate as you see fit.
Wow. Good thing we've got studmuffins like this modded up to +4. Let's see, in 1783 the US signed a peace treaty recognizing its independence with (Doh!) England.
The last time you could really say England underwent a change in the form of its government (as opposed to a shift in power within the same general outline) would be the Glorious Revolution, which shifted the balance of power from the Court to Parliament for good. The Glorious Revolution, last time I checked (i.e. about 10 seconds ago on Google) occurred in 1688.
We got about the best military in the world.
I wonder how many people are headed for the military these days? Pay looks pretty good for officers. Degrees are worth something there.
If linux had more games with guns and a decent spreadsheet, Microsoft's monopoly would be a moot point.
>
I checked the site this morning and the word "server" has been now been removed again. It just says linux port.
:).
I guess they can't make up their minds what they are doing
Ok I think you're being a tad too subjective. I assume you're part of today's arguably dominant "civilization" -- that is, western civilization. Your criteria for "suckiness" can only be based on the fact that other societies disagree with the way things work in the West and are struggling to promote their own ideals both within areas of their influence and abroad.
That said, terrorist activities are obviously not the correct ways to promote ideals. My original point, however, is the fact that the US and other leading western countries in many ways created the conditions that forced other societies to resort to extreme measures such as terrorism. As someone who is a part of Western society I don't find anything wrong with others promoting an alternate way of life. True Islamic ideals are really quite compatible with the values that we all (should) aspire to. There is nothing inherently violent about Islam or about Islamic societies.
I read somewhere that early Islamic believers fully believed in the core of Christian and Judaist concepts but also believed that those who carried the flag and "implemented" these religions destroyed the original meaning. After a thousand years of Islam's existence I might even say that certain groups like the violent terrorist affiliated groups likely destroyed the original intentions of Islam.
..Dihydrogen Monoxide..? Lets see.. two hydrogen plus one oxygen.. you mean water?
slashdot!=valid HTML
You're right, the US did not act alone. We had the free French, the free Poles, Canada (which took one of the beaches on D-Day), the Soviet Union, resistance groups in France, Norway, Belgium. Even the Italian Mafia helped us win. Of course we also had Monty to try and help us lose. Alan Turing did more to help us win than Monty ever did. In the end however it wouldn't have ammounted to squat without the U.S. When the U.S. entered the war Britain stood alone against Axis controlled europe. Without American involvement either Germany or Russia would have eventually gained control over all of Europe. Thanks to us Germany was the loser and furthermore Russia was kept at bay for fifty years. Western Europe owes it very political existance to the United States.
I'm not really sure how to respond to your statement that we nuked "millions" of Japaneese. First of all the combined death rate for both the Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombs was less than half a million people by 1950. Our immediate kill rate was about half that. We fire bombed Tokyo in March of '45 with conventional explosives and killed over 100,000 people and injured over a million. We did far worse to the Germans during the strategic bombing campaign of Europe. Second of all I can't figure out why you have a problem with us bombing them in the first place. Would you rather we literally did kill millions of Japaneese with bombs and grenades during a land invasion? It is hard to estimate exactly what that death toll would have been if we hadn't used our bombs. Japan had about 2 million troops and ten million civillians who were primed to fight to the death. The founder of Sony said that he was glad we nuked Japan because he and all of his friends were set to be the first line of defense in the upcoming land invasion. Those nukes saved millions of lives.
As for Vietnam, if we'd fought the war to win instead of fighting to play politics we just might have won. Fighting to win means defeating the enemy and dead men are by definition defeated. I'd have made the same statement had the war been with the Russians instead.
I don't particularly care why Osama Bin Laden hates us. He is not in charge of Saudia Arabia. If he doesn't like the fact that we are there then perhaps he should have worked to pursuade his own government to kick us out.
In many ways New York is the center of the world. In just about every enterprise or affair that is of an international nature, New York is a major hub of activity if not the center ring. Its no coincidence that New York is where the UN is. I have been to Manhattan. Its been said that the curse of New Yorkers is that they can quite literally go through their entire lives and never meet anyone who thinks differently than they do. Back when Nixon defeated McGovern in '72 by winning 49 out of the 50 states, people in Manhattan were stunned because, as one movie critic put it, "I don't know anyone who voted for him!" Manhattan is not the United States as a whole however. Most of the country views New York and its cross continent cousin LA with a mixture of amimosity and amusement. We can't figure out whether to hate them or just laught at them.
You really should read The Prince. Its usefullness is in that it teaches one how to best deal with those who cannot be reasoned with. Fear and power are the only language that some people and some cultures understand. Trying to sit down and work out your difference with barbarians is a collossal waste of time. Far better to beat the shit out of them and leave them living in abject horror of you. The truth about America is that we are strongly isolationist. We're not particularly interested or eager to go out and meddle around in the affiars of other countries. The general consensus is that idiots in other places can be as stupid as they want, as long as it doesn't cause problems for us it doesn't matter. We are slow to anger, but once we are enraged we are easily the most deadly of all adversaries. Al Queda and the middle east in general is about to learn the same lesson that the Japaneese learned, we are not soft, we are not cowards, and we will not stop until our enemies are defeated or dead.
I am sorry you're having problems with the INS. You need to understand however that the purpose of the INS is to ensure that yahoo's and other undesirables don't move here. Many european nations have policies of open immigration and from what I understand its becoming a real problem. People come there from the 3rd world and live off welfare created from the socialism that europe is drowning in. We don't want lazy good for nothings here. We want people who are willing and eager to work, people who are talented and will contribute to our gene pool instead of pissing in it. Our immigration policies make it difficult to come here for the simple reason that if someone is willing to apply the effort necessary to overcome that difficulty then they are the kind of person we want here. I personally believe we should do away with our current policy of limiting immigration based on country of origin and instead base it upon ability and and/or educational achievement. We should encourage the best and brightest to move here instead of telling the 101st person from Zimbabwe, who happens to be a Magna Cum Laude honor's graduate, that he or she can't move here till next year because of the 100 that were in line in front of them.
As for the idea that American's are ignorant, we have more college graduates than anywhere else in the world and our universities are the best in the world. Harvard, Yale, MIT, Cal-Tech, Princeton, Brown, Stanford, University of Chicago, these are all in the US. That isn't to say that ALL outstanding universities are here, after all there are places like Oxford and Cambridge. Its just that in no other place is are there so many outstanding universities. Any perception of American's as ignorant is evidence of ignorance itself. Even so, itt's hard not to feel self important when your nation leads the world in just about anything and everything you can think of that ammounts to a hill of beans. Mostly however we feel not so much self-important as confused as to why so much of the rest of the world just doesn't have its act together. War, famine, massive inflation and high unemployment, we don't have those problems here because we have our act together. We're not being drowned by marxist bullshit in the guise of socialism. The United States has been around for a little over two hundred years. We've achieved more in that time than anyone. We are a nation of immigrants, of peoples who came here from every place and chose to work together to build a nation and a future for their childen and their children's children. The fact that we have been so successful should say something to the world.
Lee
Muslim community leaders warn of backlash from tomorrow morning's terrorist attack.
Yup; I was noting that a correlation does not always imply a causality.
On another note, where'd you get your screen-name?
Ah, I get it now. I was trying to figure out the relevance. :)
:P. But Zapf is taken most places, so I made it Zapfie.
It's a pretty lame story... when I first got online 7 years ago, I was like.. hm.. I cant think of a screen name.. so I scrolled down the fonts list for inspiration
slashdot!=valid HTML
Ah; the reason I found it funny, is that Zapf is my last name. :-)